Dissing Ideologies

saminashah #436 you write ``How about we post a few significant lines of what we are reading?``

First, thanks for your excellent suggestion. And temporal and Ansari have provided some good reads.

For my part, I would like to quote from the July 1852 issue of the Scientific American, as reprinted in the latest (July 2002) issue of the same magazine:

``The Sewing Revolution - In 1847 there was not a solitary machine of the sewing machine kind in active operation in our whole country, if in the world. There are now, we believe, about five hundred. We expect them to create a social revolution, for a good housewife will sew a fine shirt, by one of these little machines, in a single hour...Young ladies will have more time to devote to ornamental work...``

The last line caught my attention, since it was written in all seriousness and is therefore seems so amusing today. Young ladies of course, have used the time freed up from sowing (and hand washing clothes, and stoking kitchen fires) to do far more than ``ornamental work`` (like moving science another inch forward). This piece is a reminder that technological change can be expected to bring about cultural, social, political and (I am quite certain) even in far bigger ways in the next 100 years than we can even imagine today. Indeed the changes may well be of a biological nature itself.

PS: I hope we can start a ``book club`` on chowk, and people can post their favorite passages as they come across them. But should be asked (a) to type it in themselves (as I did the above), thereby sparing us the endless cutandpastes that some thoughtless people routinely put up; and (b) avoid extracts on politics (there is far more than enough of that already).

Ansari #440 That one from Ogden Nash was funny:

One day he missed his loving bride.

She had, the guide informed him later,

Been eaten by an alligator.

Professor Twist could not but smile.

``You mean,`` he said, ``a crocodile.``

Incidentally, according to the news today, a prison inmate in Panama escaped prison, but outside prison walls got eaten by a crocodile. As they say, be careful what you wish for.

temporal #145 on the verse:

It took the sea an hour one night,

An hour of storm to place

The scuplture of these granite seams

Upon a woman`s face.

Very nice. If the poet had any sense in his head, he would have what to do next:

It took me one minute though

To rid her of her bile,

A rose, a kiss and she let go

Her anger

And came back with a smile.

(You need to be married a few years to learn these little tricks.)

Ansari Sahib,

Thanks for the Nash poem! I like the connections/diffuse responses/associations you make in posting poems-unusual (a compliment, yar!)

Temporal Sahib,

Thanks for your excellent poem! This is spare, evocative, precise work! ``shadows trembling under their footprints`` is particularly effective...the last line also! Any questions, concerns?

Light, light everywhere

Visibility slave to eye’s limits

Shadows trembling under their foot-prints

And in the darkness at high noon

Shadows of Death smiling in the nostrils.

``Notes from the City of the Sun``

Life

The sun has risen too

Love

Tranquility. The wild geese have flown

over the virgin wasteland

the old tree has topple with a crash

acrid salty raid drifts through the air

Freedom

Torn scraps of paper

fluttering

Child

A picture enclosing the whole ocean

folds into a white crane

Girl

A shimmering rainbow

gathers brightly colored feathers

Youth

Red waves

drown a solitary oar

Art

A million scintillating suns

appear in the shattered mirror

People

The moon is torn into gleaming grains of wheat

and sown in the honest sky and earth

Labor

Hands, encircling the earth

Fate

The child strikes the railing at random

at random the railing strikes the the night

Faith

A flock of sheep spills out of the green ditch

the shepard boy plays his monotonous pipe

Peace

In the land where the king is dead

the old rifle sprouting branches and buds

has become a cripple`s cane

Motherland

Cast on a shield of bronze

she leans against a blackened museum wall

Living

A net

-Bei Dao

CHIRAGH TALAY

Light, light everywhere

Visibility slave to eye’s limits

Shadows trembling under their foot-prints

And in the darkness at high noon

Shadows of Death smiling in the nostrils.

CHIRAGH TALAY

saminashah #436: and aamir:

(talking to myself)

The malignant cancer has been spreading for the past 54 years. Young and old suffered. Young and old continue to suffer. Yet we draw blinkers and talk of lofty ideals, trampling ground realities under our tunnel-visioned arrogance. There is always hope, they said. Never give up. Hope never dies. But this cancerous limb has come close to claiming the body. And one of these days it might.


DARKNESS AT HIGH NOON


Light, light everywhere
Visibility slave to eye’s limits
Shadows trembling under their foot-prints
And in the darkness at high noon
Shadows of Death smiling in the nostrils.



CHIRAGH TALAY


Roshni her soo’
Roshni hadd-e-nazar
Zair-e-paa kap’kapatay hu’aye sa’aye
Dou peh’r kay oojalouN maiN
Naak (nath?) kay sa’aye maiN mar’g
Mooskurahat li’aye larzaaN.

_________________________________________________

PS: for next time please select a less active board:)

PPS: what am i reading these days?...several books concurrently...akbar naqvi`s image and identity, romila thapar`s history of india, manto`s works and an anthology of verse...

...here is what i would like to share from the latter:


EROSION

It took the sea a thousand years
A thousand years to trace
The granite features of this cliff,
In crag and scarp and base.

It took the sea an hour one night,
An hour of storm to place
The scuplture of these granite seams
Upon a woman`s face.

E.J. PRATT

ref: Dost-Mittar #437

No, I do not understand Hobbyty`s contention. He may however be alluding to the argument that the only way India will accept the Hurriyet as a ligitimate bargaining partner is if it performs well in state elections, while the Hurriyet cannot participate in said elections because it does not recognize the constitution of India under which these elections will be held.

However the situation seems to be that the Indian govt. has been holding parleys with elements of the Hurriyet and others to persuade them to participate in the upcoming elections. If this happens then the elements which choose to boycott the elections may soon find themselves irrelevant. On the other hand, if the hurriyet prevails and their boycott is successful, the Indian govt. may find themselves in a quandry. That is probably why Mr Lone had to go, and also why Shabbir Shah may be so important. In either case, whether it participates in the elections or not, the strength of the Hurriyet will become apparent after the upcoming elections.

-narain

PS: I actually meant the people of (Indian) J&K, and not all Kashmiris when I talked about the Hurriyet`s strength.

Hobbyty Mian

There is one great thing about you and that is you are very, very polite. Not combine this quality with everything I said before, and you have a successful politician. Have you ever thought of contesting forthcomming October elections, I mean in case they are not like Mush`s fixed referendum.

PS: ``For one thing, Mandir is costing us more and more ``
To be fair though, in the 3 1/2 years since Nov 1998, the date of the report, the Vajpayee govt lived through a lot. Lahore, losing majority, Kargil, general elections, coup, Ramzaan and other ceasefires, Agra.

dost-mittar #437
Lord Avebury visited J&K in 1998 and this is what he had to say about the Hurriyat. (Remember, this was a person who is/was strongly anti-India).

``.. A few hours with the Hurriyat leaders convinced Lord Avebury that ``they are living in a fantasy world``. Some of these leaders came pretty close to suggesting that the British parliamentarian bad[had no] business visiting the valley just like that without first securing their clearance. This presumptuousness did not impress Lord Avebury; nor was he able to detect much evidence of any popular support for the APHC. He believes that ``those who claim to have to be the authoritative representative of the people should be prepared to demonstrate their legitimacy.

However, Lord Avebury finds it disconcerting that the Hurriyat leaders were rather ``contemptuous`` of the democratic process and that they continue to believe in ``big bang solution``. This obduracy has led the British leader to believe that an alternative umbrella organization should be formed, which would attract voices and individuals and groups still willing to travel the ``peaceful democratic route.`` Such an alternative to the APHC would be ``extremely helpful``, according to Lord Avebury...``
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/insight981100d.html


``...Lord Avebury also had an opportunity to see first hand the evidence of the ISI involvement in the violence. Yet he is baffled by the reluctance of the Indian Government to go public before the international opinion, perhaps in the mistaken notion that too much international attention would inevitably lead to ``Internationalization``. As the British leader sees it the challenge is ``how to get around it, especially now that there is evidence of outside involvement is sectarian massacre.

Unless the International community is able to examine impartially the evidence cited by India of the ISI role, there cannot be a complete
appreciation of the Indian contentions...``



It seems the MORI poll findings are consistent in some part the sentiments in J&K which he gauged during his 1998 visit. This means at least 4 whole years of Kashmiri lives have been wasted in needless violence! For one thing, Mandir is costing us more and more :(

Recently, in TV interviews on Zee and TV Asia after the poll results came out, he said he was surprised at the results, particularly that people felt the need for a new political party, meaning there was little faith in the Hurriyat.

saminashah,

bohat khoob! really glad you suggested it. my two cents worth. . .

The Purist by Ogden Nash

I give you now Professor Twist,

A conscientious scientist,

Trustees exclaimed, ``He never bungles!``

And sent him off to distant jungles.

Camped on a tropic riverside,

One day he missed his loving bride.

She had, the guide informed him later,

Been eaten by an alligator.

Professor Twist could not but smile.

``You mean,`` he said, ``a crocodile.``

hobbyty #432 ``I have been thinking about a part your post ``

Do you have by chance the post # and the board it is on so I can see what this is about?

Akash

Tripe! The fact that I am willing to be critical of positions I do not find worthy does not make me ``cunning`` - just as your ability to articulate your fear does not make you reasonable.

I`m puzzled, if I do harbour a hatred (something I cannot imagine you being able to aprreciate) of outrageous proportions against Hindus - why do I need to conceal it? Which Hindu or Indian is controlling my bread and water?

As far as the Jews and Hindu stuff - another reminder, as some never tire of reminding us, Hindu and Jew is nothing alien to us, it`s part of our heritage.

Relax a little, try and make sense, mo point in being paranoid - take it easy.

Chowk readers,

Hey Harpeet, anNy, Dost, Tahmed and Subroto! Glad to see some things are ongoing (like reading in the summer);

Still working and studying in this corner of the world...but I have been stealing a few hours now and then- again, Joan Didion is a brilliant imagistic writer/theorist/social/political critic; still going over Political Fictions. Nazim Hikmet`s poems, Women in Praise of the Sacred, which is a collection of women poets from Sappho to Izumi Shikibu to Lal Ded to Mirabai; Bei Dao`s poems from the book The August Sleepwalker...this is how I balance the chaos of the world.

I cannot say

which is which

the glowing

plum blossom is

the spring night`s moon.

*

Although I try

to hold the single thought

of Buddha`s teaching in my heart,

I cannot help but hear

the many crickets` voices calling as well.

-Izumi Shikibu

This stuff seems to work for me because it seems to transcend context and is IMAGISTIC ( I am a big Image-Lit Diva )

How about we post a few significant lines of what we are reading?

Tahmed

You agree that different persons interpret Quran differently and the knowledge of the times effects it`s interpretation - don`t you

But now you say the same rational does not apply when we discuss poverty and ignorance?

You have now cited World bank figures as a bench mark or index or definition - yet even here, we will be left with the same problem - ignorant relative to what? Is there a standard of ignorance? poor by whose standard,? world banks? in what sense? Homes, educations, roads, sewage systems? per capita income? not purchaing power parity? Would you agree interpretations of each of these may differ? In order to arrive at a semblence of sense, it seems to me that we must avoid making the criteria of the verifiablity of these propositions, personal.

I agree with you that economic ``progress`` is a must and it anger me as well that our per capita income does not match our expectations. I also agree with you that we should not pursue emnity with India - where I disagree is, to my way of thinking captive Kashmir must have liberty first,because they demand it, as a prerequiste for economic growth, to foster the hope that we will reduce poverty and ignorance to such levels that they do not daily assault and insult our sense of our humanity. Recall whether you were an Indian and are now a Pakistani, either way, what was the reason you wanted liberty? what was the reason for a ``quit India``?

As far as emnity with the Indian, to my way of thinking we ought not pursue it as a matter of policy - we ought not seek to be anybody`s enemy AND that`s not the same as being anybody`s door mat. Our objectives with regard to the Indian ought to be ethical, moral, and rooted in the possible and always be directed at bringing advantage to us.

Reply Hobbyty # 421

Just a couple of points:

1 If Hurriyet has broad support among the population in Kashmir, why not go to the polls and prove it? If you’re worried about vote rigging, international observers are going to be there this time. If Hurriyet is unwilling to put its mandate to a genuine test, this undermines its claim. Any party with a popular mandate has legitimacy – whether Hurriyet or any other. If it wants to remain a contender to speak for Kashmiris, it has to take part in elections.

2 If all armed forces withdrew from the disputed areas, the Pakistani Army would have to withdraw from PoK and Gilgit etc. Given Roohi’s post, don’t you think that this would also be desirable in order to get an accurate gauge of the sentiments of the population in the whole disputed area, not just IoK?

Regards

hobbyty: The $10,000 figure is roughly the cut-off figure used in the World Bank (a widely used source of data on international economics data) between middle income and high income countries. A little less than $1,000 is for poor countries. The point is not to have the accuracy of an accountant, but to get a rough idea how far one is from where Pakistanis would like to be (and you can easily tell that by looking at the number of people seeking migration to rich countries vs. poor countries).

I think it is criminal that with a per capita income well below the poverty line, we should have any priority other than economic progress. The Kashmir issue, the enmity with India and the consequent military expenditures are the luxury of the 1% population that is rich and in power or seeking political power. It is not the need of the 99% population who are poor.