Dissing Ideologies

re: the article

Mr Zia Ahmed,

A very introspective article from you. You say:

``The Pakistani government`s ``principled`` stand on Kashmir - that of a plebiscite to determine the will of the Kashmiri people - seems like hypocrisy of the highest order. How about a plebiscite to determine the will of the Pakistani people? How many wars have actually been declared by my elected representatives? And how about a peek into our own proverbial ``gireban``? This principled stand comes from a state that can technically stone a woman to death for getting herself raped, or hang people for either proclaiming or deriding some mumbo-jumbo in Arabic.``

Exactly my point of view. Do the Pakistanis want war for an elusive Kashmir? When did this dictator (or for that matter previous ones from Ayub Khan downwards)ever get permission from his people if it is O.K to go to war with India on Kashmir. How about a referendum in Pak asking a simple question to every Pakistani citizen: do they want to go to war with India over Kashmir or do they want to give up help to Jehadists and negotiate with India?

A war in the the sub-continent will set us back several decades in terms of development. India will be defending its turf, its freedom and the world will be with India on this. What is Pakistan defending? Its right to send jehadists across the border to create mayheim? The world does not accept this as a legitimate form of struggle, however genuine the original cause of this struggle may have been. Even the Tamil seperatists have realised this after decades of violent struggle and suicide bombings in Srilanka. LTTE is by the way the most violent and the most successful militant outfit the world has ever seen. Prabhakaran, the LTTE supremo is suing for peace today. Is there a lesson in all this for the Pakisanis? You bet there is. But the lesson is all lost amidst jingoistic talks and emotional outbursts about ``Kashmir being in out blood``. A more rational approach to this problem is what is requiered. But first, this military dictator should be asked to leave and someone more pragmatic and less dubious need to take over. Ultimately, Pakistan needs a democracy to live in peace with India.

Sridhar

it was a good article although i dont agree with the last paragraph but it was a vision for peace

This guy better be an authentic Pakistani:)

Gauging from this article & a letter from the Friday Times, I think a few Pakistanis (who curiously say they are a silent majority) are getting a tad fed up you Kashmiri muslims.

I think the sacrifices the Pakistani common man & woman has made for this ``Kashmir runs in our blood`` business & has really gotten them very few returns, in these 50+ yrs, if you really think about it. Granted., its kept the Pakistani military pretty well fed. Now, more than ever,theyre beginning to realise, that this ``investment`` is going to give them a ``bang for the buck`` (pun intended). That would be insane for everybody; ESPECIALLY for the Pakistani common man. But then, who the heck ever listens to him?

Pakistan was well on its way to being Asia`s tiger, until 65. From then on she made a fatal mistake. She tackled with that guttersnipe India, & fell into the same gutter. Serves her right. India is good at very few things. But, with all humility, I will say this: India is BRILLIANT at pulling Pakistan into the same gutter she lives in.

What a wasted opportunity! Pakistan went through all that trouble separating from India & then hitched her destiny to India`s wagon! OY! AKL KE DUSHMAN!!!:)) All because of this stupid obssession with Kashmir.

I dont know why, collectively, Pakistan, as a country is so stupid. Now here comes my famous ``theory``:)..just time-pass yaar...

a)you are all descended from hindus, so you all have our stupid mentality. You THINK you can take hinduism out of the man by converting him...but you are sadly mistaken...

b) you are 90%+ muslim. But fat lot of good Islam has done for you--as a country & society, I mean. You guys pray 5 times a day, fast everytime you are told to, dutifully follow all the rituals, thump the Quran on your chest at every opportunity etc etc. ..

Oof! one would think Pakistan..the land of the PURE..would be the most PERFECT society of the most PERFECT religion. Dont get me wrong..no offense to your religion..its great religion & peace & felicitations be on your Holy Prophet an` all..I have no argument with THAT!

But what the HELL has your PURE society/country shown for it?! You have as much crime, corruption, violence, social injustice, etc etc as us idol worshipping kanjar kafirs. No matter what Chowk`s mullahs say, they wont let their mothers, wives & sisters walk on the streets of Karachi or Lahore, without fear for their lives.

At least we have an excuse. Like I said once, we didnt have the LUXURY of being indoctrinated in the perfect religion--you have! Its like you got an ``open book`` exam & as a country & society you failed!

Tsk Tsk Tsk , Mullahs progressive ,urstruly & hobbyty...methinks you are all aadhe hindus, all ``morally neutered`` & living in the Land of the Pure..pure what? pure bs:)

Zia Saheb,

Naqqar khanay mein tooti ki awaaz kaun sunega?

Regards,

Join Bay Area Indian and Pakistani community organizations, peace and human

rights organizations in a RALLY FOR PEACE IN INDIA AND PAKISTAN!!!

This past Wednesday the many groups representing the South Asian community

in DC and Peace Action organized a peace vigil to the Indian and Pakistani

embassies to call for peace in India and Pakistan. We in the Bay Area are

also mobilizing for peace.

When: Monday, June 10th 2002 at 12 noon

Where: UN Plaza in San Francisco (Market Street, near Civic Center BART)

Why: In response to the violence and threats of nuclear war that have

erupted in South Asia in recent weeks, concerned citizens want to send a

clear message to the Indian and Pakistani governments that ordinary people

from both countries denounce all war, especially nuclear war. Ordinary

people want peace, constructive and open dialogue between both nations and

believe that the people of Kashmir have the right to self-determination.

Who: Friends of South Asia, the Kashmir Foundation, the Pakistan American

Democratic Forum, Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, Western States

Legal Foundation, Global Exchange, California Peace Action, EKTA, the

Pakistan Association of San Francisco, the Community Protection Network, the

People`s Nonviolent Response Coalition and many others who want PEACE, NOT

WAR.

After the rally, a small delegation will take our list of demands to the

Indian Consulate. Activists in LA will be delivering the same list to the

Pakistani Consulate on Monday.



We come together to say no to war and escalation of violence in S. Asia and

demand the following:



1. That the Indian and Pakistani governments work towards peace and not war.

The people of India and Pakistan want peace and we demand that their

governments not use war as a political weapon.

2. An end to ALL violence, including violent rhetoric and threats of war.

We condemn all war, particularly nuclear war.

3. That Pakistan and India devote their resources to human needs and to

ending social injustices, not on armaments and military expansion.

4. A de-escalation of the military build-up and war rhetoric.

5. A constructive and open dialogue between peoples and governments.

Governments should resume political and diplomatic negotiations immediately

and re-open communication lines between the peoples of India, Pakistan and

Kashmir.

6. The people of Kashmir have the right to self-determination.

7. No U.S. military intervention. The U.S. should lead by example by

immediately declaring a policy of no first use of nuclear weapons and

initiating multilateral negotiations on the rapid elimination of nuclear

weapons worldwide.

8. The United Nations should act to foster dialogue and negotiation

between India and Pakistan and a de-escalation of violence and war rhetoric.

PLEASE JOIN US ON MONDAY!!! BRING SIGNS AND PROPS IF YOU CAN!!! If you

cannot make it to the action, you can still take action. See call to action

below. THANK YOU!!!

For more information, please see press release below or call Leila at

415-575-5536. I can give you more info, as well as other groups contacts.

In peace and solidarity,

Leila Salazar

Global Exchange



Rally in UN Plaza brings Bay Area Indians and Pakistanis Together in a Call

for Peace

On Monday, June 10 representatives from various Indian and Pakistani

community organizations organizations 12 noon. Following the rally, these representatives will take a list of

demands to the Indian Consulate in San Francisco. Similarly, a delegation

will take the same list to the Pakistani Consulate in Los Angeles.

In response to the violence and threats of nuclear war that have erupted in

South Asia in recent weeks, concerned citizens want to send a clear message

to the Indian and Pakistani governments that ordinary people from both

countries denounce all war, especially nuclear war. Ordinary people want

peace, constructive and open dialogue between both nations and believe that

the people of Kashmir have the right to self-determination.

``India and Pakistan must understand that war will not resolve the injustices

of history, it will only condemn our nations further and exacerbate the very

tensions that are sought to be resolved through war,² said Angana P.

Chatterji, a Professor, of Social and Cultural Anthropology at the

California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco. ³India must stop

violating the rights and lives of Kashmiris, and Pakistan must change its

policy connected to Kashmir. Indian national interest must be supportive of

minority rights and secularism, and separate itself from Hindu extremism.

Pakistan must take seriously tasks related to the democratization of its

polity. We must not support the fabric of resistance connected to the use of

terror on the part of states and groups. We must take responsibility for the

unjust histories through which our nations were conceived, ``

³A solution to the Kashmir problem is vital to restore durable peace in

South Asia,² says Abdus Sattar Ghazali from Pakistan American Democratic

Forum. ³Even if the military situation between Pakistan and India

de-escalates now, there will always be a possibility of tension between the

two countries unless the Kashmir problem is resolved.²

³The conflict raging between India and Pakistan, the newest members of the

nuclear club, demonstrates anew that the fate of our planet is at stake,``

according to Jacqueline Cabasso, Executive Director of the Western States

Legal Foundation, a nuclear disarmament advocacy group in Oakland. ³While

U.S. officials are telling India and Pakistan that war is not an option, the

U.S. is developing more useable` nuclear weapons as an option in its own

open-ended war against terrorism. This hypocritical do as we say, not as we

do` posture is dangerous and destabilizing. The best way for the U.S. to

help de-escalate the military standoff in South Asia is to lead by example.

The U.S. should immediately declare a policy of no-first-use of nuclear

weapons and initiate multilateral negotiations to eliminate nuclear weapons

worldwide.²

Representatives from the following organizations will be speaking on the

need for both India and Pakistan to make commitments to peace, instead of

war: Friends of South Asia, the Kashmir Foundation, the Pakistan American

Democratic Forum, Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, Western States

Legal Foundation, and Global Exchange. In addition, California Peace

Action, EKTA, the Pakistan Association of San Fransico and the Community

Protection Network and the People`s Nonviolent Response Coalition have

endorsed this event.

###



COALITION FOR NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT AND PEACE (CNDP) CRIES HALT TO PRO-WAR

CAMPAIGN

YOUR EFFORTS CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

India and Pakistan are on the verge of a war that could escalate into a

nuclear confrontation. A perverse, irrational, and almost willfully

suicidal mentality seems to exist in some military sectors. Yet India and

Pakistan have substantial peace and antinuclear movements. They need your

help. A nuclear conflict is not inevitable, though the risk of one is

considerable. The issue is as urgent and pressing as any other issue in the

world right now. There are a number of positive things that you can do.

1) Send a message of solidarity to the Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and

Peace in India. (The coalition includes Pakistani organizations.) E-mail to

Achin Vanaik in India at: pamela@del3.vsnl.net.in

2) Write to the Prime Ministers and Foreign Ministers of India and Pakistan.

Tell them that nuclear war contradicts all that is best in the traditions of

the Southasian subcontinent. Tell them that war will solve nothing and will

lead to the destruction of both countries. Urge them to step back from the

brink of mutual destruction, and to solve their differences by peaceful

means. FAX NUMBERS FOLLOW.

PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA A.B. VAJPAYEE

+91-11-301-6857 +91-11-301-9545, 91-11-972-2-664-838

MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS INDIA

+91-11-301-0700

PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF OF PAKISTAN

+1-92-51-920-3938, 0011-92-51-920-1968 0011-92-51-811390

FOREIGN MINISTER OF PAKISTAN +92-51-920-7217 +92-51-920 0420 or 820-420

3) Call or write to President Bush and Secretary of State Powell. Urge

them to use their influence to de-escalate the military stand-off between

India and Pakistan and promote diplomatic solutions. Demand that they lead

by example by commencing immediate multilateral negotiations on the

elimination of nuclear weapons everywhere. Add your own additional

examples. There are far too many to list in this short space.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH

Comments: (202) 456-1111

Switchboard: (202) 456-1414

FAX: (202) 456-2461

E-mail: president@whitehouse.gov

SECRETARY OF STATE COLIN POWELL

(Switchboard: 202) 647-4000

Fax: 202-261-8577



CNDP CRIES HALT TO PRO-WAR CAMPAIGN

The Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and Peace (CNDP) is deeply

concerned at the campaign unleashed in India for a `full-scale war` with

Pakistan and the attempts at projecting a `national consensus` in favor of

such a war. Resort to such a war to settle disputes between two

nuclear-weapons states is a far from readily acceptable option. It is all

the more so in view of the nuclear-weapon capability acquired by both India

and Pakistan in the last four years and the fact that neither has ruled out

the use of nuclear weapons against the other. The acquisition of nuclear

weapons by them has only been followed by the deterioration of both internal

and external security in both countries. The government of no nuclear-weapon

state can be given a carte-blanche in this regard and authorized to take

``any action`` in the name of fighting terrorism.

While condemning strongly the latest terrorist attacks in Jammu and

Kashmir, the CNDP appeals to all political leaders, policy-makers and

legislators of India and Pakistan to ensure immediate pull-back of troops

from their common border and to launch a dialogue to resolve all outstanding

issues.

On Behalf of CNDP: Admiral R. Ramdas, J. Sri Raman and Others



FOR MORE INFORMATION

*Limited Nuclear War in Asia Would Kill Millions - 24 May, 2002

LONDON (Reuters) - A limited nuclear war between India and Pakistan over the

disputed territory of Kashmir would kill at least three million people,

scientists said Friday.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/news_article.jhtml?type=sciencenews&StoryID=1009652

&fromEmail=true

*INDIA, PAKISTAN AND THE BOMB

The Indian subcontinent is the most likely place in the world for a nuclear

war

Scientific American, December 2001

http://www.sciam.com/2001/1201issue/1201ramana.html



Here is the map (UNITED NATIONS PLZ, SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94102):



http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?location=QB1TnZ9VpNNh0TncajA37g6ne%2bXF

AjaLck3GB85BI3dqEJll9YzaTPEVofwnNeOapIsRaYKF34m3bDQh1rkMZdVOPwIrEhJBZ8whwYDg

MI13t683wOLwVoNxP1BGZ8Ng&address=UN%20Plaza&city=San%20Francisco&state=CA&zi

pcode=&country=US

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?location=QB1TnZ9VpNNh0TncajA37g6ne%2bX

FAjaLck3GB85BI3dqEJll9YzaTPEVofwnNeOapIsRaYKF34m3bDQh1rkMZdVOPwIrEhJBZ8whwYD

gMI13t683wOLwVoNxP1BGZ8Ng&address=UN%20Plaza&city=San%20Francisco&am

p;state=CA&zipcode=&

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temporal # You wrote: ``...there is a difference in `getting raped` and `getting herself raped`....the latter indicating a degree of voluntary or involuntary participation by the victim...``

OK. Suppose the woman did get herself raped, to use your words. Does that mean she should be stoned to death? Stoning to death is a crude and barbaric punishment, and for you to split hairs represents exactly the kind of thinking that is rightly ridiculed in this article.

PS And please dont tell me this is an Islamic punishment - on adultery the Quran says if the couple repents, let them go. This is the Jahaliyyat - the religion practiced by not only quarterbrains like progressive, by halfbrained mullahs, by cunning Saudi despots, by bastardss like Zia. And by unthinking people from whom one expects something better.

News Item from the Hindustan Times (reviewed by your faithful ISI spy): ``Home Minister L K Advani has said if East and West Germany could unite, there was no reason why India and Pakistan could not form a confederation of their own free will...``

Ha! Ha! I swear this man says these things on purpose: One day he would destroy us, the next day he would form a confederation out of ``free will``. Now everyone will be convinced the Advani-ji has lost all his marbles by now. Meanwhile the clever man strategizes to become the new Emperor of Greater Bharat that stretches from the North Pole to the South, and from the Suez Canal to Japan and perhaps even Hawaii if he can sweet talk the US into it. He is probably admiring his Emperor`s New Clothes before the mirror even as I write this.

But he is not cleverer than your faithful reporter, tahmed. He would have to wake up PRETTY early in the morning to pull a fast one on him. Ha! Ha!

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Zia,

You are rarer than a budhist at the laskers meeting in madrike, rarer than a pakistani who will not gladly denonce the ahmadia while getting a pak pass port.

You are the first pakistani on chowk who said what TNT is really is, who wrote about what really happens at a mosque, who for the first time wrote about how jihadic pakistan is even in the urban areas.

The tahmeds and YLhs as you can see have nothing to say about the article. The profound and the scholarly are getting excited about one word, `` rape` in your article. It is a tragedy that the educated of pakistan cannot even stand an article like yours. Trth hurts, especially for the pakistanis.

Regards and best wishes. Wait for the knock from ISI.

Jay

….incisive write up, zia…hope to read more…

hari inder:

“Kidding aside, you are going to be accused of the above my many of your compatriots.”

….and rest assured that they’re many of his compatriots who’ll wholly concur with his view because we know (to quote shankarsaab) our s hit stinks…and bad…

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amina shah #13

Acknowledging a mistake is a sign of maturity. Morarji Desai was an eccentric but remarkable man. He was also a very secular person.

June 9, 2002, 12:41AM

India`s citizens worry little about Armageddon

Nation that`s never entered nuclear war can`t imagine one

By CLAUDIA KOLKER

Copyright 2002 Special to the Chronicle

NEW DELHI -- It`s a slow day at the temple. Surendra Sharma, a Hindu priest who prays on behalf of worried devotees, has only fielded one request. A couple wants their daughter cured of measles.

No one has bothered asking for a prayer against nuclear war.

In recent weeks, India`s standoff with nuclear rival Pakistan over the disputed Kashmir region has gripped many in the West, with at least one world leader, Russia President Vladimir Putin, comparing it to the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. Yet most Indians themselves are bustling through their days with seeming nonchalance.

The Hindustan Times, a major English-language newspaper here, split its front page the other day between high-level threats from Indian and Pakistani leaders and news of higher gasoline prices. The energy story was given more importance on the page.

There have been few signs of people plotting escapes or arranging extra visits to priests or psychologists.

``I`ve never heard anybody talk about a bomb here,`` Sharma says, his fingers idly draped over the cup of scarlet powder that he uses to give benedictions. ``Nobody`s scared. Most people who come here come to pray for the well-being of their families.``

Adds temple visitor Arun Sharma, who`s no relation to the priest: ``There`s no possibility of a nuclear war at all, because no one on either side will think of destroying an entire generation.``

He says he`s not worried even about nuclear accidents.

Though the prospect has Western countries urging their expatriates home, ``we are not afraid,`` says Sharma. ``Not in the least.``

One magazine, however, described a potential nuclear strike on New Delhi. A single bomb, the report said, would kill 2 million of the city`s 7 million residents in seconds. Three million more would perish in five hours. The city`s temperature would approximate that of the sun. All buildings and life forms within five miles would be erased.

The coolness of a billion people in the face of possible disaster tells much about India`s reality. Indians have not known the carnage that a major conflict like World War II or Vietnam can bring. Most may be even less able to envision a nuclear holocaust. But in a land tormented by flood, plague, and famine, anxiety also has become a part of life.

Certainly some in the West have talked about the possible nightmare. With hundreds of thousands of soldiers mustered along their common border in Kashmir, India and Pakistan`s aggressive talk in recent weeks could easily devolve into a war, say Western analysts. Even if the leaders themselves act responsibly, they add, both countries lack mechanisms to keep their nuclear bombs from extremists or accidental firing.

Rhetoric from the two governments waxes and wanes daily, but the United States is maintaining its call for its 60,000 expatriates to come home at once. Secretary of State Colin Powell has deemed the situation on the subcontinent still ``extremely dangerous.`` In Britain, the country`s former colonial ruler, officials are reportedly planning for 150,000 war refugees.

In New Delhi, however, sociologist Imdiaz Ahmad spends a recent morning calmly writing in his office. Beyond his garden, filled with lime and orange trees, the campus of Jawaharlal Nehru University lies quiet.

Ahmad, a Muslim, says he doesn`t know anyone fretting about nuclear war. The subject didn`t even come up last Friday at his mosque.

In Ahmad`s view, the border standoff amounts to nothing more than a political ploy. Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, he theorizes, needs something to overshadow a recent, flawed referendum that kept him in power. And Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee is trying to distract from the recent horrifying massacre of Muslims in the state of Gujarat. Kashmir, the Himalayan valley state that both sides have claimed since their partition in 1947, provides the perfect foil, he says.

``From day one, stable, enlightened intellectuals have believed there will be no war,`` Ahmad says. ``If you go and conduct a survey of the average Indian, I`m sure that 60 to 70 percent will say this is a rhetorical war, and a warmongering motivated by domestic issues.``

Many Indians agree, says Anirudh Deshpande, a historian who writes on military issues. He too, doubts the nations will engage in any war exceeding border skirmishes. ``India is not prepared for it,`` Deshpande says.

But, he adds, India`s complacency about nuclear war flows from deep delusion. Though Pakistan and India have been in conflict for five decades, neither has experienced a total war.

``War is, to most people here, a very armchair sort of enterprise,`` Deshpande says. ``Americans have participated in two world wars. They have the experience of casualties on a large, world scale. That is why they are so afraid of body bags.``

Most Indians also misunderstand what a nuclear bomb can do, Deshpande says. Since 1998, the government has celebrated nuclear test blasts as if they were moon landings. The Department of Atomic Energy, he says, furthers the conceit, never reporting accidents.

In contrast to generations of Americans, most Indians have not seen a TV drama imagining a nuclear winter, or a public service ad describing how to protect themselves in event of a nuclear explosion. Many people, Deshpande says, are unclear about exactly what a nuclear bomb is.

``You have no idea of how many kinds of nuclear bombs there are,`` says 22-year-old priest Sharma. ``If it`s the sort that poisons the air, it will affect everyone. If it`s the kind that spews fire, it will burn everything down. But the temple will remain intact.``

For some Indians, the bomb mainly inspires jingoistic fantasies. Kanewar Singh, 76, indulges cheerfully. Visiting with friends inside a tiny clothing store, Singh says that India should nuke Pakistan at once.

``What is there to be afraid of? One day we all have to die,`` he says. ``We have such a big population. If the first 10 million Indians die, we`ll still finish the Pakistanis off. It`s worth it.``

If he seems extreme, he`s not entirely alone. A recent survey indicated that 82 percent of Indians believe that Pakistan would go nuclear in a conflict, yet 74 percent think India should attack.

The New Delhi municipal government hardly seems more pragmatic. The Hindustan Times reported last week that the city has no plan for nuclear attack, and lacks protective bunkers even for the country`s leaders.

Some who grasp the enormity of nuclear disaster say they are not especially preoccupied with it right now. Historian Deshpande admits he`s lost sleep over the prospect of a mishap. But, he says, ``I have been losing sleep over this for three or four years now.``

In Deshpande`s opinion, the region`s nuclear risk isn`t much higher now than usual; only in the case of outright war would it increase.

Accidents, he adds, can occur in any place where nuclear arms are stored.

What could Indians do in case of a strike? Since the Kashmir standoff started in December, prize-winning author Arundhati Roy has voiced her dread of nuclear war in interviews and peace rallies. But, she asks in a recent opinion piece, ``where shall we go? If I go away, and everything and everyone -- every friend, every tree, every home, every dog, squirrel and bird that I have known and loved -- is incinerated, how shall I live on? Who shall I love? And who will love me back?``

But activism, even worry, seem luxuries here. Many Indians simply cannot afford them, says Yogesh Arora, a clothing vendor in a Delhi market. Every day, he says, an average Indian may lose a child to illness, see a home swept off in floods, or fail to pry his food from starved or thirsty fields. The bomb ranks low upon the list of worries.

``Americans try to protect themselves from everything,`` Arora says, as the green and purple tunics that he sells float like veils around him. ``We don`t have time to worry; we have to make a living. We`re going to die, tomorrow or today. And the more you try to protect yourself, the weaker you become.``

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/world/1444515

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