Breaking News: Suicide Bomb in Karachi

Romair #280

``Obviously, Indian forces are doing an overwhelming majority of the terrorism, as in any freedom struggle. And as in any freedom struggle, their is terrorism, from various militants, as well. India only shows the later, and that too without any investigation or proof provided. All this propoganda should be completely disregarded and only views of human rights organizaitions should be accepted. ``

Obviously !! Yes of-course, of-course ... there is SOME from the freedom fighters (but then just as in ANY freedom struggle) - but really even those are just vicious rumors - no proof, no investigations ...

Please take a second to look at these peoples faces and DO feel free to disregard them ...

http://ikashmir.org/WailValley/B2chap8b.html

http://ikashmir.org/WailValley/B2chap8a.html

http://ikashmir.org/WailValley/B2chap8c.html

Zeemax, whoever else...

Interesting first post. True, it`s clear to anyone passing down Fatima Jinnah Road on a daily basis (as do I) that the anyway inoperational (or barely operational) US consulate was impregnable, at least to car bombings.

On the other hand, the site (footage of which u might have caught on CNN) clearly reveals that a foray was made toward the building... the police chowkie, which was really the weakest obstacle to the boundary wall, was obviously rammed into, causing a breach in the portion of the wall behind it.

Something has been lost in the reporting/offical statements, which have been sketchy and conflicting from the start...

This is all more than a little disturbing to us Karachiites...

Fuzair... this is not the act of people in desperation, nor weapons of the poor (I know what I said following Sept 11, and and am willing to eat some of my words, esp. following the recent spate of suicide attacks in Israel). This is murder that has had its appetite whetted, a power fest of the cowardly (if it is the IRA-, Al-Aqsa-brand of terrorism, that is).

re DRUMZ #whatever:

``Chowkies sound/look/act like robots.``

And that makes you what? Luke Skywalker? Steen Spielberg? Or just your everday masochist?

re. our last exchange... Why waste intensity on you? ...and duh, when I call you or anyone a jackass on the chowk, it IS their persona I`m deriding, not their person, which I know nothing about. Don`t get me wrong... I`d be happy to say it to you on the face if the need arise.

btw.. you never did tell us how you ended ip being the kid of Pakistani Muslim immigrants from once being, as per your admission, a Jain.

Then again... never mind... you might think it actually matters to us robots.

rgds,

re progressive #227:

Assuming that wasn`t directed to Pervaiz Musharraf, thank you. The first, philosophical half of the article was as insightful and thought provoking as the second was disturbing and depressing. Thanks for sharing all the same.

P.S. MeiN ``ne kissi ko brbaad kiya``??

Reply #: 275

DRUMZ

Unless ur gonna bring them a ``taste of their medicine`` yourself,

..////

See how the medicine is working - never mind who delivered it.

Pakistan to ban madrassa militancy

Under the new laws, clerics found to be involved in fanning sectarian hatred and extremism in madrassas, would face prison terms of two years.



http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/200602/dlfor69.asp

Reply #: 275 If tahmed doesnt slap u, Ima do it my fukkin self with a machete. Unless ur gonna bring them a ``taste of their medicine`` yourself, stay the hell silent and let the real soul-jahs run the show. Im tired of u internet losers talking all high and mighty like ur gonna do something.

..///

``The medicine`` has been already delivered, by Allah. When the Great One himself is doing the job - I need not get involved. In Hindu terms - it is also called Karma - as you sow so you reap. It seems to be working too, for time being.

BTW - why are you so mad? I will say what I have to say. Freedom of Expression - remember - or is that too high sounding for you?

if you don`t like what I say, what are you going to do - threaten to kill me with a machete? And you claim everybody else is a loser here?

Fuzair,

My point is that suicide bombings are militarily ineffective but remain politically useful in some circumstances because they are a terror weapon and help in gaining new gullible recruits. When the stakes are high enough, states (especially Western ones) will frequently change the confrontation to a direct, head-on, decisive conflict more in line with traditional conflicts, and refuse to play by the rules of the suicide bombers, thus negating the `advantage` of suicide bombings. In WW2, the Japanese kamikaze pilots were every bit as indoctrinated as the Al Qaeda nuts today, but the Allies went after the state sponsors of the kamikaze pilots. The US response to Al Qaeda/WTC attack is consistent with this wherein the US replaced the Taleban regime with a pliant one, and would no doubt have done the same with Pakistan had Musharraf not seen the light. Should any state refuse cooperation with the US on Al Qaeda it will quickly find itself a target. That is because instead of chasing individuals in a hostile state, the US will change the rules of the game to be able to better take advantage of its politico-military superiority.

The exception to this are if (i) the victims are weak (Sri Lanka - note the LTTE conventional army is fairly durable and fights in battalion size formations) and (ii) suicide bombing is a relatively new phenomenon (Israel, India, Pakistan) and it is too early to tell how the states will respond. In at least two situations (Israel, India) the regimes raised the stakes on the sponsors.

hoorpreetya!

im reading this brazilian guy jorge armado`s `shepherds in the night`..it was kinda hard to get into shuroo mae but i kept on reading since it came highly recommended..its a nice book with these really crazy charactors..the best thing about it is the narration, its really funny sometimes, the stuff the narrator keeps pointing out...story is based in a very interesting place and time...sun, wine, woman, cheese, modinha and really cool ceremonies, bohat mazae kee kitaab hae...but you gotta concentrate, the guy believes strongly in continous run on lines

Harpreet? Shammi: I am amazed at your interest in soccer. Punjabis like spherical shape, isn`t it? They like soccer because ball is round. They also like ladoos over burfi and round jalebis. Come to think of it, the best success of Punjab worldwide is dhol, sort of round.

Anyway, Harpreet if you recall, I mentioned Spain and Turkey as two surprise teams at your movie review thread. Look both of them are in the quarterfinals and one of them is more likely to make it to the final. I am for Turkey, nothing to do with YLH, Ataturk or religion. They have big, muscular players and likely to beat Senegal in quarterfinal. Well Brazil is Brazil; they have football on their national flag. I must go to copacabana to investigate the Punjabi-Brazilian connection in the light of their commonality of liking spheres.

DRUMZ #275
Well, this sort of argument is made very often by Pakistanis on chowk and in their newspapers(and in their foreign policy). Even a Indo-Pak summit failed for this reason. Why do you object only when Indians think this way?

rsaxena #288
Tell me again, why do I owe you an explanation? Cat got your mouse again ?
For some people, EVERY issue (even whether Al Qaeda exists, can you believe it) is about how I am a bad bad person tarring all Pakistanis as bad bad people and there is nothing more to it except to shut me up with abuse. For such people, where I am the sole problem, I am only giving a simple solution. At least I am on a discussion board, I am not picking up a gun and going after their compatriots like theirs are going after mine. Its their choice.

re: sadna

{get the jihadis out of Kashmir, and I will be off chowk for good, its as simple as that.}

...u think pakistanis on chowk can influence events in kashmir?...are u for real?...

Harpreet (Brazil/England soccer game)

I am an avid soccer fan and have always admired Brazil`s `beautiful game` (there used to be far fewer fouls in their game than these days) and England will find the going tough (you`ve got to keep the Brazilian strikers in check!). I have not missed a game since the 2nd round began, and am not so sure that the winner of tomorrow`s game will have a shoe-in at the final. The other teams have been playing surprising well and quite a few giants have fallen (the Koreans have amazing comeback abilities, and are relentless in attacking). Enjoy the game.

tahmed321 #281
You began it by namecalling and you are ending with namecalling. Nothing unique about this. I wish you and your friends joy of your tactics.

As for me, here is one for you and your friends (including the corp commanders): get the jihadis out of Kashmir, and I will be off chowk for good, its as simple as that.

sadna: Actually in saying ``bye bye`` in my post below, I was letting you off too easily - You brazenly insist that you are right in tarring all members of a community (the pakistanis in this case) with the same brush. This is the very definition of a bigot. Therefore, it is not namecalling to call you a bigot, but an accurate description based on what you insist is right.

Realizing your infinite capacity to write post after self-righteous post while writing the most stupid, bigotted, humorless, self-indulgent things, I will NOW drop the matter. You can continue write your last post(s) or not on the subject, but now I will say goodbye having wasted far more time with you than you deserve.

THE MYTHS AND TRUTHS ABOUT MILITARISM/STATE OPPRESSION/TERRORISM IN SOUTH ASIA (PART II):



Part I was in reply 144.

- The third major group with religious inclinations are the Lashkars etc., fighting in Kashmir. Here is information from someone I talked to, who went into Kashmir, through them.

The Kashmir struggle started indigenously after the Jehlum river episode in which Indian govt. massacred many Kashmiris, after rigged elections (read Kashmir in Conflict, by Victoria Schofield). A few years later, Pakistan as a state policy jumped into this battle covertly. This was combined with nearly the whole Pakistani population supporting this cause, alongwith Pakistani religious and Kashmiri volunteers willing to risk their lives to help the Kashmiris.

What emerged was a parrallel army in Pakistan, i.e. various religiously inspired militant forces which volunteered to fight in Kashmir, with their own training programs, recruitement programs etc. These were welcomed both by the Kashmiris and the Pakistani govt. They emerged in the form of various different groups, like Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, Harkut-ul-Mujahideen, etc.

They assisted the various militant organizations that were present in Kashmir. They were supported, I belive, by the APHC, as well. And after 45 years, Kashmir finally had an indigenous militant struggle with unlimited covert militant support from across the border.

- I have found striking similarities about how the war in Kashmir is described by various credible Western authors, who went in there, and by the person(s) I talked to, who were associated with the militants. So I have to assume this picture to be correct.

- Interestingly, these organizations are not just a group or a Lashkar. They are actually conduits, for anyone wanting to carry out Jihad in Kashmir. Many people have absolutely nothing to do with these organizations, other than getting trained, and going into Kashmir to attack Indian troops, for two weeks, and then leaving for their yuppie jobs in London or Islamabad.

While the organizations consist mostly of poor young men, with no futures in their villages, Pakistani Corrolla driving businessmen, bankers, pilots etc. also tour through them. I have talked to person(s) with advanced college degrees living in upper class neighborhoods of Pakistan, speaking fluent English, listening to American music, who went through them.

Kashmir is after all, not a terrorist war, it is a war for self-determination. And many Kashmiris regardless of where they live in the world, see it as such; even Kashmiris with non-religious, to the point of athiest motivations, like Salman Rushdie.

Uptil now, these Lashkars have had no interest in Pakistan. They are not the terrorists who operate in Pakistan. Those are from the sectarianism side. The Lashkar guys currently have one aim: to liberate Kashmir from the Indian govt., or die in the cause. Then maybe liberate other areas like Chechnya. In essence, they are supporting freedom fighters. They go into Kashmir speficifically to attack Indian BSF, military camps, etc. That is evident from the training imparted to them in various training camps in Pakistan Kashmir (and maybe even in Afghanistan).

I don`t know how they will behave, within Pakistan, now that their actions have been restricted. Will the turn on the Pakistan govt., or quitely go back to their villages, etc.

To view these parties as purely cross-border terrorists, is actually quite incorrect. That is not the aim nor direction of these organizations. People would not risk their lives, cross into Kashmir, just to commit terrorism. What would they gain? If they are going to assist the Kashmiris, what do they gain from killing them? And why not kill Kashmiris within Pakistan?

However, Kashmir conflict has now turned into, ``big business`` for India and for Pakistan. And the size of these Lashkars is (was) huge. One or more have congregations of over 100k people. Obviously, in groups that large, there could be dissent, opportunism, etc., which could lead to anything.

India only exposes the terrorist attacks against certain civilians in Kashmir. And since no proof is provided, nor any joint investigation is allowed, it is hard to predict who exaclty carries out those terrorist attacks. Is it rogue groups within these Pakistan based organizations (that is what India says). Is it the Indian govt. supported groups (the Indian govt. did support killings in Gujrat; that is what many Pakistanis say), is it indigenous Kashmiri militants, etc. Who knows?

The human rights violations by India in Kashmir are unimaginable. The more I read about them, the more I am shocked, to the point that I do not even want to read about them anymore. Rape, Gang rape, abductions, killings in the tens of thousands, breaking bones, electrocution, torcher etc. It really makes the Israelis look like angels. I cannot imagine any area in the world where a higher amount of human rights violations are going on. Kashmir has the highest no. of soldiers per sq. ft. of any area in the world. And it is now one of the few areas in the world, where human rights organizations and the international press is completely and totally banned (AI was banned by G. Fernandes, in the early 90s; Schofield, Victoria). This combination of banning human rights organizations, and such a high number of soldiers is obviously terrible.

For those who want to know the exact situation, please read Kashmir; Happy Valley to Death Valley by William Baker, Chapters on Kashmir in War on Top of the World by Eric Margolis, and various AI reports. There are many other books.

The whole Kashmiri militancy, from Pakistan`s side, has however, gained a life of its own. It still works in coordination with the Pakistani govt., through the Army. But it may have become too huge of a phenomenon to control. It has certain overlaps (maybe) with training camps for terrorist organizations in Afghanistan, i.e. many militants, terrorist or freedom fighters, train at the same place. And most of all, it consists of people who are extremely religously motivated in a certain direction. What if, at some stage, they turn their direction from Kashmir to other issues. Luckily, this hasn`t happened so far.

It is however essential to note and point out that information coming from India, on what is going on in Kashmir, is basically propoganda. If everything was cross-border terrorism, then India wouldn`t have closed off Kashmir to the rest of the world. Obviously, Indian forces are doing an overwhelming majority of the terrorism, as in any freedom struggle. And as in any freedom struggle, their is terrorism, from various militants, as well. India only shows the later, and that too without any investigation or proof provided. All this propoganda should be completely disregarded and only views of human rights organizaitions should be accepted.

But on the whole, the direction of the Pakistani and Kashmiri militant organizations is the liberation of Kashmir; not terrorism in Kashmir (that is not to say, they may have rogue terrorist elements; who knows). As one of their leaders stated, if the Indian forces completely left Kashmir at four o` clock, the militants would be out of Kashmir by 4:15, on the same day.

It is however, the, ``big business`` aspect of the Kashmir conflict, with a potential to result in rogue organizations, that is bothering the rest of the world (should bother Pakistan also), and over the past few years has bothered Kashmiris, as well. The Jihad aspect may have overtaken the Kashmir aspect.

The rest of the world is scared of this, and India has only highlighted this part, while still keeping Kashmir a closed book. Due to this, five organizations in Pakistan were banned by USA Translated: US felt some elements in these organizations could, at some stage, move from Kashmir, and targe USA, as well. Currently, I don`t know of any of their attacks on the USA, and they are (were) all busy in Kashmir. However, who knows what is really happening, and could happen, if 100k Kashmir experienced militants one day, decide to turn their direction towards Israel, or USA, or even Pakistan.

Though the USA has no moral authority to decide who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter (Sharon is a hero in USA, and was tried by AI in Belgium for massacres. Many argue that the biggest terrorist organization in the world is the US State Dept., etc.), however what the US says is generally enforced in the world.

Interestingly, the USA did not ban any of the indigienous Kashmiri militant organizations.

This is quite a bit different than just stating that these organizations, as a policy, are terrorist organization. They aren`t. Those are organizations like Sipah-e-Sahaba and Al-Qaeda (if it exists). But there is a fear that some elements in these groups may go in the direction of terrorism, or may have already gone in that direction (i.e. one example is the killing of the passenger on the Indian hijacked airplane). It is hard to tell whether the person who killed him was from Kashmir, or from a Pakistani organization. But he was a terrorist.

The other fear is that these organizations may get out of the Pakistan govt.`s control. That hasn`t happened yet, and I hope it doesn`t happen.

At the same time, it is important to keep the, ``big business`` aspect of these organizations separate from the Kashmir struggle. Even if these organizations were to become terrorist organizations, that still does not mean that Kashmiris do not have a legitimate demand.

In the next reply, I will point out the training these organizations impart, and how people actually get into Kashmir. And how the indigenous Kashmiris view these militants. And why it is important for Pakistan to now defang these organizations.