Kashmir Fatigue

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http://asia.news.yahoo.com/020707/afp/020707074629top.html

Kashmir Muslim guerrillas turn to India`s Bollywood for tips

``..One such militant is the local commander of Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba guerrilla force, Zulfikar Ali, who was last week detained by police in Jammu.

The rebel said he had spent more time watching flicks here than planning attacks.

``During my stay in Pakistan I saw a total of three Pakistani films but since I crossed over I have seen about 100 Indian films,`` Ali said from a police lock-up. He said he had crossed over to Indian Kashmir just 12 months ago...``

``.. ``We have arrested a number of militants from Kashmir Valley who are fond of Indian films in Pakistan,`` said P.L. Gupta, Jammu police chief.

``Recently we took in two Hizbul Mujahedin militants who were in a Pakistani training camp and they switched allegiance to the New Islamic Front (guerrilla force) after their bosses beat them up for watching `Gadar` (Riot),`` Gupta said...``

re: ylh

..instead of constantly spewing your delusional garbage and showing how ill-deserved your degree is, take a moment to learn a thing or two about not being secure from fawad...

re: saminashah

{Now try arguing that there are several similarities in religious/spiritual/cultural/artistic not only between the various communities in South Asia, but also in Asia, and see what happens...:)}

...whoa, similarities amongst all Asians???....there`s no way rsaxena has anything in common with little frog-eating chaptas...

Rsridhar #611

The topic is pandas and Kashmir and NOT Yoga. Anyway, Raja Yoga when split Raja means Master or King; and Yoga is exercise. Master exercise or main exercise. Kriya means krida or krira or ``Game`` or last exercise. It can also means the last game or sexual intercourse/love making. Hatha Yoga means - mastubation by hand or foreplay. These are brahman rituals.

allo shankar, samina, scout and fawad79! :)

Shankar,

I`m afraid I may have already pissed YLH off :D, but I`m sure he`s gotten over it by now. Whatever Jinnah`s vision was (i, myself, lean more towards the considered opinion that it was a secular one), the reality is faaaaar off his track. As far as Hindi filims being banned from Pakistani screens, I left Pakistan what seems like a lifetime ago, and I`m not sure what the current policy is..but when I lived there, Hindi filims were available via video, and an Indian channel where they showed Hindi films once or twice a week. I remember (many Chowkies probably weren`t even conceived yet) the record-breaking sales of televisions from shops on Hall Road, and other places when the news came that we would be able to access an Indian channel, and the first movie that came on was `Pakeezah`..beautiful!

Samina..

So true! And why bother making linkages if we are always right, and always better?!?

Scout,

Good point. I mean does it really matter whether we use the word jeevan or zindagi? They are interchangeable afterall! Why must it be pointed out to me that jeevan is a Hindi word, when the person actually understood what I meant?!

Fawad79 :)

Actually there are quite a number of us non-Muslim Pakistanis scattered around these great United States of America, and Canada..quite a few of them from my home away from home away from home, Lahore.

And to answer your curious question about whether I am single or not..the answer is yes :).

Now, now..no comments from the peanut gallery..no haranguing, I see where some of you pranksters were heading with the lucy-shankar exchange!!! *laughing *

re:Reply #: 602

shankar,

``However, if you spoke Urdu to me, I would understand more than 75% of the words..so where did I get that knowlegde from..``

No doubt, from watching Bollywood movies. I picked up a lot of conversational urdu from Hindi movies. Most of these movies in the 50s and 60s had muslim script writers who used urdu freely. The songs were in urdu. No doubt Md Rafi felt comfortable singing those songs. Lata Mangeshkar had to learn the urdu diction early on to sing those lovely songs.

There is a story of Yesudas (the Malayalee singer)first singing for a Hindi movie had to learn Urdu pronounciation. He is said to have remarked that if it was Urdu which was being used, why call it a Hindi movie and not a Urdu movie!

Sridhar

Kafir K Khan,

{{It is said that Pakistani citizens are friendly and want to be close to India only to be kept separately by the Army which regards itself as constitution.}}

I`m glad YOU said it, because I dont think I`ve heard it said that bluntly by any other Pakistani on Chowk:)

Ofcourse, the army wants hostile relations with India. Its hostility with India that feeds & nurtures it & gives it the largest slice of the pie.

If Mushy had not sabotaged the Lahore peace process, I dont think we would have this eyeball to eyeball confrontation today. The bum didnt even have the decency as COAS to show up. After you have stabbed India in the back, you have no right to complain that Indians dont trust you. If they had built upon Lahore, India & Pakistan WOULD be talking right now, INCLUDING Kashmir & Siachen. The Pak military has been the hindu fundos` GREATEST ally.

Mushy`s true colors are showing more & more.Its one thing for Mushy to have no credibility among the Indian public. But the way he`s behaving, he`s soon losing the respect & credibility of every segment of Pakistani society. He`s even alienating his greatest & I think, his most important political base--the Pakistani intelligentsia.

It started with that disastrous referendum. Now he`s dinking with the consitution to the point where the October election is going to be another joke, like the referendum. The new PM & parliament is not going to have any real power. He only wants college grads to run for office...like college grads are incorruptible! Whats worse, big daddy can fire any PM who dares shows any independance.

If 9/11 had`nt happened that clown would have been a TOTAL outcast, internationally. The guy got too enamoured by all the international attention & thought he was greater than everybody else. I dont know why these Paki generals dont learn from history-- that the US loooovees compliant right wing dictators in the third world, much more than third world democracies. When they outlive their usefulness, they are either cast aside like toilet paper by the US, or there is a violent revolution (like in Iran) that throws the despot out...no matter how SINCERE & PATRIOTIC that despot considers himself to be.

Ofcourse, Mushy can always blame the US when that happens.

I think his days are numbered..sooner or later..one of these sharks that are hovering around him is going to bite...they are just WAITING for the chance.

There are a few myths that have been perpetrated by the Pakistani military that are very deeply entrenched in the collective psyche of Pakistan

1) India is OUT to destroy or annex Pakistan.

FACT:India could have done that to East Pakistan...they had the army in Dacca..in 71. I dont see any Bangladeshis voting in an Indian election or Bangladesh being fragmented. I dont see Bangladesh behaving like India`s ``sattelite`` either.

2) It is the army that SAVED Pakistan .It is Pakistan`s most PATRIOTIC insitution.

FACT:It is the army that DESTROYED Pakistan, spat on Jinnah`s ideals & continues to do so.

3) The Pakistani army is the most professional, ethical, world famous fighting force in the world.

FACT: Yeah right! It has never won any war in its glorious history.



It has butchered its OWN citizens in a civil war, just because they did`nt like the party their citizens voted for. NONE of those butchers were ever made to answer for their crimes against humanity, despite the fact that the HRC report became public. Tiger Niazi died in his own bed, defiant to the end.

As far as corruption in the army: can these generals & admirals look at the Pakistani common man straight in his eye & say they are NOT corrupt?! Dont make me laugh!!

So be very PROUD of your only remaining institution, Pakistan. Aside from Kashmiris (who dont consider themselves Indian anyways), I dont see Indians citizens hate & resent THEIR military, like Pakistani citizens do, but are too scared or disillusioned or numb to say anything...

When Mushy came on the scene...was it 3 yrs ago?..the army was a goddess...INVARIABLY..sooner or later, that same goddess turns into a whore.

Kafir # 606, 609 ---

Kafir Sahib

Ena gussa? Chhado pare. Thori thand khao te prabhu ya allah de gun gao.

Kade mauqa mile te Ik Shabad zaroor sunana,

`koi Bole Ram Ram, Koi khuda ae,Koi saiwe GosainaN, Koi Allah ae------`

Ragards

ylh #600:

``Pakistan has a great Pre-Islamic, Islamic, Mughal and Sikh heritage which has created a profound sense of cultural identity which is distinctly Pakistani..``

But no Hindu heritage, I suppose? I am disappointed in you, ylh - given that you usually argue based on facts, I thought you were an exception to most Pakistanis who disown their Hindu heritage.

roohi #582:

The article was very moving. Makes one wonder whether Partition was really worth it (not that I am questioning the existence of Pakistan etc). I am sure there must be similar stores in J&K - POK, though without the religious conversions. I wonder whether there are stories about separated families from West Bengal-East Pakistan too.

shankar bhai #602, `` Has`nt the Govt of Pakistan ``officially`` banned Indian movies? ``

when will India ban them?

actually both Pakistani and Indian movies should be banned from the whole world.

fawad,

{{ps are you single? :)}}

dunno about ana...but i do know another single, pretty, spicy, pakistani lady...want me to send a rishta to your hotel? you seem to be a heck of a lot smarter than ylh, are you good looking too?

if so, say yes QUICKLY...before she starts smoking a joint...or reciting ``Our Father, who art in Heaven..``

fawad79, ana

This whole business of being the same/different is both important and silly. It is important in that we all seek and deserve an identity. It is silly because identity is a given: it is never threatened by acknowledging one`s linkages.

My brother is closely tied to me, but is not the same as me. There is/can be no confusion: neither regarding our connections, nor about our separateness. We stand connected; we stand separate. This connected separateness is our identity. Take one dimension away and there will remain nothing around which to build our self of self.

Identities are acknowledged, not found. Searching for an identity is about as necessary or productive as blindly searching for oneself in a crowd.

Cheers.

tahmed,

{{I dont understand what leads you to think that most Pakistanis are not proud of their non-muslim heritage. There is certainly no evidence of that on chowk.}}

I`m glad you asked! Please ref to ana`s post #594. I`ve seen many references on Chowk where Pakistanis will go out of their way to associate with Middle Eastern (especially Arab) roots & dissociate themselves from Indian roots. They talk about their middle Eastern roots with pride & the latter with some amount of shame. Especially, anything associated with hinduism is ananthema to them.

Ana has been especially forthright in her experiences have been in her interactions with some Pakistanis she`s come across. More power to young people like her & fawad.

re:

rsridar,

i need to move out man and do some major partying u know what im sayin bro??????????????? i want a bachelor pad a ramma im counting down the days till i take my NABLEX and p-law.........until then anything that releives the stress of being 23 and wanna be ur average american joe and having a strict south asian muslim family is good: chowk, yoga, philosophy........etc im gonna take kaplan for mcat after i get licensed but hey if i dont get into a US or DO sch ill be posting from grenada or guadalajara but thanks anyway yoga is so cool and trust me i feel old bein 23 and being in my positon makes u feel old

yasser

pakistan exists and doesnt need a justification..........but irfan husain says he doesnt know what pakistani culture then there is a kernel of truth to what im posting no? yasser check out sheikh maqbool, fmr deputy attorney general on jail road he was an old law partner of my dad`s not that u need help anyway !!!!!!!

urdu vs hindi

these are the same languages lets stop pretending they are different

shankar #572

I dont understand what leads you to think that most Pakistanis are not proud of their non-muslim heritage. There is certainly no evidence of that on chowk. Also, if you check out the official Pakistan government tourist site (it is at www.tourism.gov.pk) you will see on the home page a collage of pictures from Pakistan - it has pictures of Lahore Fort, Pakistan Memorial, and...a picture of the starving Buddha from the Gandhara culture...and a picture of an attractive young lady from the non-muslim kalash tribe). If you click on ``tour guides`` you are brought to this intro:

``Dear Friends,

...You will find exciting tours introducing our archaeological/historical heritage, such as Mohenjodaro and Taxila - seats of the ancient Indus Valley and Gandhara civilizations; the architectural monuments of the Moghals; the Khyber Pass - historic inlet to South Asia; the ancient unchanging traditions of the Kafir Kalash in the Chitral Valley; the unique splendor of our northern mountain ranges ...``. Both Mohenjodaro and Taxila are of course non-Islamic cultures. There is no talk if Arabs here. And this is consistent with my first hand experience. So I dont think your perception is consistent with reality.

Of course there are religious extremists in Pakistan - as in India. But they dont represent Pakistan any more than the hindu extremists represent India.

PS: On your previous post, I am glad we agree then that one does not have to be a saint to have respect for other cultures and religions. This is the normal thing to be expected from a civilized person. On the other hand, the one-track putdowns and defamations of muslims or hindus or any other group of people (as some individuals like to do on chowk), is not something that one would expect from a normal, intelligent person.