Kashmir Fatigue

scouty,

{{could you PLEASEEEEEEEEEE QUITTTTT trying to cyber-set me up with any pakistani schmoe who interacts with you!}}

relax, hon:)

Perhaps..just perhaps, I may have been refering to another pakistani sis on Chowk, huh?:)

besides, fawad is not ``just another schmoe``, he says he`s good looking, open minded, sounds intelligent, well educated, comes from a good family, gives his e-mail address & says YES!!!

So,I think my sis (who shall remain nameless, henceforth) should take some brotherly advice & correspond to him..who knows?!

Please go out & have a cup of coffee with ana--she seems to be a very nice lady. While you are sipping on a cup of java, please remember, nice guys come few & far between. So, my sister (whoever she maybe) should strike while the iron is hot...otherwise, only choices remaining will be deadhead saxena-types (grinning, running & ducking)...

ana, tahmed

{{I think it would be unfair to generalize, as we all tend to do, about ALL Pakistanis or Indians disavowing themselves from anything that connects us historically or culturally. But since we are having intelligent conversations here, I`m sure that isn`t what you were trying to do. :) }}

OK OK..Jeeze..I SHOULD`nt generalize, I WONT generalize..mauf kee jiyae:)!

roohi #
You mentioned `In an Antique Land` by Amitav Ghosh earlier. Did you see this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/09/science/09SILK.html

or
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=218837

``..So robust was the India trade 2,000 years ago that Emperor Tiberius, concerned over Rome`s increasingly adverse balance of payments, complained that ``the ladies and their baubles are transferring our money to foreigners.``..``

``..But archaeologists, who in their own way can be as unrelenting as the desert, have now completed eight years of excavations under harsh conditions at Berenike [on the Red Sea coast near the Egyptian border]and found what they say are the most extensive remains so far from the ancient world`s sea trade between East and West.

Their spades uncovered building ruins, teak and metal from ships, sail cloth, sapphires and beads, wine and stores of peppercorns. Some of the goods show that Berenike was trading, at least indirectly, with places as far away as Thailand and Java. Inscriptions and other written materials in 11 different languages, Greek and Hebrew as well as Latin, Coptic and Sanskrit, attest to the cosmopolitan mix of people who lived in or passed
through the town.

The co-directors of excavations at Berenike — Dr. Steven E. Sidebotham, a historian at the University of Delaware, and Dr. Willeke Wendrich, an archaeologist at the University of California at Los Angeles — said the research showed that the maritime trade route between India and
Egypt in antiquity appeared to be even more productive and lasted longer than scholars had thought...``

``..``We talk today about globalism as if it were the latest thing, but trade was going on in antiquity at a scale and scope that is truly impressive,`` Dr.
Wendrich said...``

``..Their excavations revealed that Berenike experienced three periods of prosperity. The first was in the early Ptolemaic times, the third and second centuries B.C. Then after a century of decline, the port under the Romans enjoyed its second and greatest boom, in the late first century B.C. and through the first century A.D...``

``..An enormous Roman rubbish dump, covering some of the Ptolemaic ruins, yielded a variety of ancient Indian goods, ranging from Indian coconuts and batik cloth to glass beads and gems. A pot held 16 pounds of peppercorns, one of the most common commodities. ``If you find it in the trash, then the amount transported through the town must have been mind-boggling,`` Dr. Wendrich said.

Dr. Sidebotham and Dr. Wendrich also reported finding a discarded customs archive, which was written on potsherds reused as a kind of notepaper. This revealed some of the trade procedures as well as goods.

The archaeologists were especially intrigued by the large amounts of teak, a hardwood native to India, found in the ruins. They surmised that the
teak arrived as hulls of ships. When ships were damaged beyond repair, the teak was probably recycled in furniture or building materials. The presence of so much teak also suggested to the researchers that many of ships were built in India, one of the indications of a major Indian role in
the trade. ..``


``...An indispensable source of knowledge of the India trade is found in ``The Periplus Maris Erythraei,`` the circumnavigation of the Red Sea, a book written by an anonymous merchant or ship`s captain in about the first century. A recent translation and commentary was prepared by Dr. Casson and published in 1989 by Princeton University Press...``

A practical guide to mariners, the book described the Red Sea ports in their prime and identified landmarks on the main trade routes. A round trip to India covered about 3,500 miles. Ships left Egypt in July to take advantage of strong summer winds out of the north in the Red Sea. Out in the open ocean, ships were carried by the southwest monsoon, bound for Arabia and across to India`s northwest coast, at the port of Barygaza, or headed directly across to Muziris on India`s southwest coast...``


I wonder whether Muziris is modern Mangalore, the city of Amitav Ghosh`s Egyptian merchant.

Romair #645

``Had they just been kicked around and enslaved, like most other Hindu families, maybe I would have transformed my history, and said grandpa was actually Chinese.``

I am curious why do only Pakistanis have such weird sense of history? I think we need to take a look at Pakistani history books.

``I think, on the whole, they now have Pakistani roots, since the number of Pakistanis born before partition is now a very very low percentage of the total population.``

Going by your criteria, your children ought change their surnames and to say their parents/grandparents were Chinese, because all you folks with `Pakistani roots` got your butts thoroughly kicked 4 times by the Indians.
NB: Indian surnames can be provided to those desirous on request.

Romair #645:

``The average Pakistani 15 year old boy or girl can give you a lecture on the Indian entertainment industry, yet the average 15 year old Indian probably cannot name more than three cities in Pakistan. Why?``

Dude, I think it has to do with what the dominant culture is. Just as Hollywood (and other aspects of American culture) dominates most of this world, it is a fact that Bollywood (and other aspects of Indian culture) dominates South Asia - and this includes Pakistan. People at the `consuming` end are more likely to know all about the dominant culture, rather than the other way round. Just as Pakistanis can give a lecture on the Indian entertainment industry (in your words), I am sure Indians, Pakistanis, Europeans etc can give a lecture on the American entertainment industry, political scenario etc.

But what does the average American know about our part of the world? I think people learn only on a `need-to-know` basis, and there is very little need for the dominant culture to know about the consuming culture, unless there is something positive to offer. The average Indian kid can rattle the names of players in Pakistan`s cricket team, for example. But I agree, he may not know beyond the capital of Pakistan (if that). I myself was a zero on Pakistan, till you guys did a Kargil.

Romair 645 . . . in response, partial:-

a) I have a very Muslim surname, OK, goes every which way . . . ``Malik`` . . . and sure, have had enough relatives wearing Indian uniforms at alert including father, brother, nephew listening to Junoon/Sayon Nee or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan/various or maybe even ``Puranee Jeans aur Guitar``. Hey, evenb Reshma.

b) Nobody in India in their right minds doubts the right to existence of Pakistan. Believe me.

c) etc.etc. What does that prove?

d) I do agree that the Ah-Rabs treat us badly. They also treat their women badly. They also treat black people badly. They also treat Ah-Rabs from other countries badly. I pray fervently that America`s War on Terror is extended to Saudia too, soon. I have a feeling that such an action may, somehow, solve Indo-Pak relations. Someday I shall explain why I think so too. Maybe you can guess?

It all boils down to you Pakistanis watching Indian movies. Is it our fault that you guys watch such JUNK? I did try to watch some Pakistani movies, but they were even worse. The one I watched had something to do with a mini-skirted female Indian spy seducing Pakistani uniformed guys. In betwen she received orders from a Sikh officer who was actually something else. Are there no Pakistani movies about love triangle and ABCD or UKBCD babes/guys getting it on?

You really hate Indians very much if you want us to see Pakistani movies.

ana, scout

mae bhi aoon please?

Layman #622 You quote ylh ``Pakistan has a great Pre-Islamic, Islamic, Mughal and Sikh heritage which has created a profound sense of cultural identity which is distinctly Pakistani..``

and ask ``But no Hindu heritage``

The Pre-Islamic of course refers to the Gandhara civilization (Buddhist) and Moenjodaro (pre-Hindu). While there are some hindu temples to be seen in a few places in Pakistan, I personally am not aware of any major monuments or statues per se in Pakistan.

While not wishing to open up a pandora`s box of hindu vs. muslim chauvinists on chowk, I am curious to understand why we do not have any major hindu temples or statues comparable, e.g., to badshahi mosque or the sikh gurdwaras in Lahore or to the Buddhist monastery in Taxila. (and let me hasten to add that to my knowledge, there never were any such significant hindu temples or statues in what is now Pakistan). It does seem to my uneducated mind therefore, that while there was no doubt a large hindu population in what is now Pakistan, historically the Indus Valley seems to have not been a major center of hindu culture (as is true, e.g. for the Ganges Valley and even parts south-east asia all the way to Bali).

Serious (and hopefully enlightening) responses welcomed.

shankar #572: ``What I DO find hilarious, though, is that I sense these Pakistanis are somewhat ASHAMED of their Indian (particularly Hindu) roots!``

I think you are over-emphasizing this point. Pakistanis are neither here nor there, in regard to their Indian roots, or their Persian etc. roots.

I think, on the whole, they now have Pakistani roots, since the number of Pakistanis born before partition is now a very very low percentage of the total population. Just like second and third generation Americans, from Europe, just know where the came from, and nothing more, similarly Pakistanis just know where grandpa migrated from in India. There pride and shamefulness is all dependent on which part of the social hierarchy grandpa belonged to.

This can be seen in the names of Pakistanis. Millions of Pakistanis have Hindu last names, intact. If they were ashamed of their history, the first thing they would have done was to change their name. Wouldn`t you agree?

My own last name is based on Hindu history. Why haven`t I changed it? There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands, in Pakistan with this last name. I don`t think any of them have changed it. They don`t particularly care. They have too many other day to day problems.

On the whole, I think there is a tendency in human beings, to attempt to be associated with winners. I proudly proclaim my Hindu heritage, maybe because, even though, the Rajputs got their butts kicked by Muslim invaders, they did some butt-kicking, as well. Had they just been kicked around and enslaved, like most other Hindu families, maybe I would have transformed my history, and said grandpa was actually Chinese. It would have had nothing to do with them being Hindu. It would have had a lot to do with them being losers.

Many people from lower castes ancestories change their histories, not because of religion, but due to other reasons. Its human nature. Not good, but the reasons are different from the argument you are presenting.

Rest assured Pakistanis do not love Arabs. They hate Arabs almost as much as they hate Indians, at a national level. And more than they hate Indians, at an individual level. Look around you in Michigan, and tell me how many Pakistanis you ever seen hanging around with Arabs. They probably hang around with Indians a lot more than with Arabs. Why? Considering the fact that nearly all Arabs are Pakistan`s allies (at least not enemies), and India is Pakistan`s no. 1 enemy, and nearly all Arabs are Muslims (and according to you, Pakistanis consider Arabs their proud forefathers) shouldn`t they all be hanging around with Arabs, if your argument holds weight. Go ahead and ask a Pakistani who worked in Saudi Arabia, about Arabs, and then let me know what he/she says.

Pakistanis are overly involved in Arab national causes, in my opinion. But that has more to do with religion, and lack of information, than anything else. At an individual level, Pakistanis consider Arabs, of nowdays, arrogant pompous racist ignoronomous, just like the rest of the world considers them. If Pakistanis try to trace their heritage back to Arabistan or Persia or Afghanistan of yesteryears, it is because those guys were winners in their days (most Pakistanis will proudly trace their heritage back to martial Hindu races like Rajputs also, but maybe not to those of lower cast India, nor to lower casts of other places; just human nature, nothing to do with India).

On the whole, Pakistanis, in my opinion, have done a hell of a lot more in accepting all the good that comes from India, than vice-versa. I can talk to Indians for hours about India, yet they do not know a thing about Pakistan. Why?

The average Pakistani 15 year old boy or girl can give you a lecture on the Indian entertainment industry, yet the average 15 year old Indian probably cannot name more than three cities in Pakistan. Why?

Indian movies used to carry all their titles etc. in Urdu, now they have completely switched to, ``Hindu`` alphabets. How many Indians would proudly admit they are descendants of Mughals, other than Akbar?

There is something known as Alert Duty in the Air Force. For 24 hours, in peace and wartime, pilots sit underground in a room, waiting to get called to take-off against intruders. During peacetime, there is nothing to do, accept eat and read magazines. Guess what the biggest source of entertainment in those alert duty rooms happens to be in Pakistan. Indian movies.

If you go to Pakistani markets, you can ever hear A. R. Rahman`s Vande Matram blasting on stereos. Can you tell me a single place in India, where I can hear Junoon`s rendition of Pak Sar Zameen?

On the whole, I think Indians` have brainwashed their own citizens, about Pakistan, through the regular hate parade in the Indian media (I follow a lot of Indian websites). They have created a vision of Pakistan, which is far from reality, and I think your comments are a victim of that vision. Pakistani media, is somewhat the same in its hatred of India, but not nearly with the same intensity (at least not the English Pakistani media). And Pakistanis have accepted so many other Indian things, that there is a counter-balance.

If I, and many others like me, can have a Hindu last name, from Indian ancestory, and can sit on Alert duty (against Indian intruders) in the military, watching Indian movies, and listen to A R Rahman`s V. Matram on my car stereo, then don`t you think Pakistanis do quite well in separating the good and the bad from India.

Can you point me to an Indian who has a Muslim last name, sitting on alert duty, watching Pakistani movies, and listening to Junoon`s Pak Sar Zameen? If not, then don`t you think your criticism should be pointed towards India, and its lack of acceptance of anything Pakistani; infact its lack of acceptance, in many cases, of the existence of Pakistan, all together (regarding which so many arguments used to be presented on this website by Indians; these arguments seem to have stopped after the Gujrat riots). I doubt you will find too may Pakistanis who doubt the existence and right of independence of India.

shankar #618 you write ``I`m glad you asked! Please ref to ana`s post #594.``

I did, but that does not answer my question: ana`s post is simply ``derivative reporting``, not an example of a poster claiming Arab ancestry. The fact is that there are hardly any posts on chowk where Pakistanis lay claims to being Arabs or Turks or anything - most Pakistanis I know are very proud of what they are (as Panjabis, Pathans, Baluchis and so on, and have no need to turn to other nationalities to build self-esteem).

I also see you simply ignore the official pakistan tourism website I brought to your attention, where the non-muslim Taxila and Moenjodaran civilizations are referred to ahead of the (muslim) Mughal architecture, and no references about Arabs. Do we have a form of cognitive dissonance at work here perhaps?

Since I try to stay focussed on what I read or see with my own eyes (as opposed to what I have like to believe), at least I am convinced that some people in India (at least the ones who write on chowk) are far more concerned with issues of descent than in Pakistan. This has been my experience, and that is all I am saying.

The next question (at least in my mind) is the reason for this difference. I suspect that one reason is as follows: For some reason people in India like to believe that Pakistanis chose to separate not because of anything wrong that the Indians did but because of something wrong tiwht the way Pakistanis think. From all indications, I am convinced that Pakistan came into existence simply because Jinnah and co were convinced that a Hindu-dominated India would suppress the muslims economically and politically. Pakistan was not the creation of either religious fanatics or ethnic chauvinists - it was the creation of hard-headed men who did what they thought was in the best economic and political interests of the muslims. This conclusions is based on what I have heard from elders who lived through partition, as well as from what I generally read on the internet (in real life, people - Indians and Pakistanis - I know dont discuss such rubbish, thank God).

There may be other reasons (caste consciousness perhaps), but I dont know enough about that to hold any views.

correction...

...the post below should say `insecure` rather than secure...

rsaxena

re: ylh

..instead of constantly spewing your delusional garbage and showing how ill-deserved your degree is, take a moment to learn a thing or two about not being secure from fawad...

re:Reply #: 629

Pyar Kiye Jaa,

Looks like your brahmin teacher did not do a good job. If you are from the ``land of Pure``, then please say no more. I understand.

Sridhar

Hello Shankar (Reply to 625),

It seems u r in an inferiority complex ...... because when a person is unable to prove good points for his country they try to blame everything on the other party.

Frankly speaking India 10 times bigger then Pakistan should have been 10 times more powerful atleast 5 times but the fact of the matter is that Pakistan and India are equivalent, if it considers itself better then why dont they attack pakistan, they cant and they never will because they are afraid of Pakistan and secondly Musharraf is much more powerful and eloquent and knows what he is talking about, he answers the question directly and to the point(Remember why agra summit failed ?!?! becaue of his news conference :)), not like other politicians which we had and India has ...... Secondly INdia`s PM walks like a 1 year old kid and talks as if he has a diode in his mouth as he takes so many pauses in completing a sentence maybe because he hasnt got enough energy to speak or maybe as reported in Times that the India`s PM is usually asleep all the time, are these the only kind of leaders left in India and then there is Dy PM Advani sahab, who is calling the report of expert scientists on Gujarat as frivolous :) this is really funny that a govt spokesman making fun of his own scientists :)

So if you think India is a powerful nation, then try to take on China which is almost double the size of India, but u guys donot have the GUTS !!!

Secondly all pakistanis believe in two nation theory ..... how can we be a part of so called Secular India, when Minorities are butchered in Gujarat and nobody cares ...... atleast we dont have this thing in not so called Secular Pakistan and proud of it :)

Your govt. donot even have guts to allow its cricket team to play against a 10 time smaller country ..... why ?!!?!?! because they are afraid of loosing because they always loose ..... they apply the same theory on not fighting a war with pakistan because they are afraid of loosing on this front too :)

take care.

Asim

How come the Rashid/Pak Govt, is saying that

relatives of Nawaz Sharif cannot contest the elections. I thought the earlier rule, even if it was one-sided, was, 1) not more than two terms,

2) past conviction.

What has convicting Nawaz anything to do with his relatives. What if a Nawaz`s cousin or distant cousin want to contest?

This is one of the most clear headed articles on Partition I`ve seen in a long time ... the full text is available online in MS Word format here

http://www.statsvet.su.se/all_personal/hemsidor/ahmed_partition_of_india.doc

The 1947 Partition of India:

A Paradigm for Pathological Politics in India and Pakistan (Pre-Publication Version)

Ishtiaq Ahmed

Associate Professor, Dept. of Political Science, Stockholm University

(intro)

This article seeks to shed light on the role a particular historical event can play in conferring legitimacy to the politics of communal and national animosities and hostilities. The Partition of India in 1947 was, on the one hand, a gory consummation of a long process of mutual demonising and dehumanising by Hindu and Muslim extremists. On the other, in the post-independence era, it became a model of violent conflict resolution invoked and emulated by ethnic and religious extremists and the hawkish establishments of India and Pakistan.

The paper argues that the Partition of India epitomises the politics of identity in its most negative form: when trust and understanding have been undermined and instead fear and insecurity reign supreme, generating angst at various levels of state and society. In the process, a pathological socio-political system comes into being. I try to show how such a system functions within the domestic sphere as well as in India-Pakistan political interaction.