Kashmir Fatigue

Reply fawad79 # 25

“this article is another attack on islam, what else is new it is written by a Pandit there is notbhing more to say ..................”

What rubbish. Everything that does not jive with your point of view is not automatically an attack on Islam. If you don’t like what the author says, dispute the points he makes. On Chowk, thank God, screaming “anti-Islam, anti-Islam!” or “anti-Hindu, anti-Hindu!” is not enough to make a case. If you have a case to make, please try another approach.

Reply fawad79 # 25

“this article is another attack on islam, what else is new it is written by a Pandit there is notbhing more to say ..................”

What rubbish. Everything that does not jive with your point of view is not automatically an attack on Islam. If you don’t like what the author says, dispute the points he makes. On Chowk, thank God, screaming “anti-Islam, anti-Islam!” or “anti-Hindu, anti-Hindu!” is not enough to make a case. If you have a case to make, please try another approach.

Romair,

For once I have to agree with my nemesis, saxena. I think the issue of Kashmir has been discussed to death on Chowk, without any resolution whatsoever. Your great-grandchildren & mine will be arguing the same points over & over again.

The author`s rambling article highlights one important issue. Human rights have been a joke in Kashmir for centuries & today it has come to the point where ordinary Kashmiris are numb with pain & suffering. Its not surprising that Kashmiris are HOPING that there is war, to settle this issue once & for all, even nuclear war...heck, they have nothing to lose...they have lost everything already..

Seems to me, in history, ordinary Kashmiris themselves have NEVER been given the opportunity to decide their fate. Ironically, the stunning beauty of that land is a curse, because every invader has covetted it, & used every means (fair & foul) to manipulate its people, to dominate it.

So, I guess, just like the Holy land, God Himself has abandoned it, in disgust, at His children fighting & blaming each other at whose moral transgressions are worse.

You are wondering why Indians are not appealing to their govt? C`mon! Why should they? Gimme a break!

1)they uniformly are blaming Pakistani 1000 cut jehad for this mess!

2)why the hell would the GoI change its policy? it paid off! I know this irritates you..but the ``hool`` DID pay dividends! It certainly got the attention of the Yanks!

3)Mushy might as well have signed the declaration in Agra. He walked off in a huff. Sure, he impressed the heck out of dear anNy. But sooner or later, he would be caught in the trap set by those coyotes in Delhi.

After all, what is the bottom line:

a) He`s agreed to PERMANENTLY stop cross border infiltration & the US & India is watching him like a hawk, to ensure that he keeps his word.

b)There is NO third party negotiation

c)Only cosmetic descalation by India

d)The Almaty Declaration favors India

Romair, you & your cohorts can go on & on about the ``moral`` aspect of Kashmir. Unfortunately, it falls upon deaf ears. What is surprisingly (& tragically) evident is that your fellow Muslim nations are deaf too. So dont blame the West. Making ( I think silly) statements like Pakistan should be move away from being too pro-US is just what the BJP is hoping.

Vaju, that whiskey drinking, trout eating brahmin maybe trashed by Time , but he & his fellow coyotes know how to play head games. I`ve given you the analogy of the wolf & the coyote in the past.

Mushy is that proud military wolf, who loooves to puff his chest & strut around & show his people & the world how proud & tough he his. Time & again, these soldier boys betray ``one dimensional`` thinking. Yeah..Sattar is resigning for health reasons..BULL... Mushy ought to resign, he`s got his balls caught between an anvil & a hammer (to steal Ayaz Amir`s words).

Ali1 and Temporal R the same people. Ali1 writes and replies to his own article in the guise of Temporal.

Kashmir: From earthly paradise to potential Armageddon

The Arizona Republic

http://www.arizonarepublic.com/opinions/articles/0618thomas18.html

June 18, 2002

Just before the sun dipped below the horizon, it touched the surface of Dal Lake, turning it into molten gold.

A fragrant breeze rolled off the pavilions and cascading waterfalls of the mountaintop Hanging Gardens of Kashmir and ruffled the placid surface, releasing a million shards of light and sending a ripple through the floating fields of lotus blossoms.

No wonder Mughal Emperor Jahangir had said, ``If there is paradise on Earth it is this, it is this, it is this.``

I remember the scene as if it was yesterday. I was 16 and Kashmir was a pristine paradise. Today it is an armed camp, teetering on the brink of nuclear war with roadblocks, rumbling army trucks, Indian commandos in black, suicide bombers, a dying economy and shell-shocked civilians. How did paradise turn into potential Armageddon?

Pakistan and India have fought three wars over the disputed territory of Kashmir, each holding their positions at the Line of Control.

Today a fourth war - perhaps even a nuclear war - seems to be looming large. Apart from the damage it would do to the two countries (estimates range from 12 million dead from a direct hit, to a 100 million in peripheral damage from fires, starvation and disease) it would break the international taboo of using weapons of mass destruction. Ideally these are only a deterrent, not weapons of choice.

It is estimated that India has about 25 nuclear weapons and that Pakistan has about half that many. This imbalance is inherently dangerous; military strategists predict that the losing side in a conventional war would be tempted to use nuclear weapons to reverse the advantage.

The two countries have been fighting over Kashmir since 1947, when India achieved freedom from British rule and the new state of Pakistan was formed from parts of India. The Hindu maharaja of Kashmir opted at the time to sign an instrument of accession to join the Indian Union - though the population of Kashmir was predominantly Muslim - and not Pakistan. Ever since, a relentless campaign to ``liberate`` Kashmir from India has been waged from across the Indian border.

Janak Singh, a native of Kashmir and a former bureau chief of the Times of India, says, ``Extremist organizations operating under the guidance of Pakistan`s intelligence agency, the ISI, are engaged in staging relentless acts of violence all over India. Trained militants continually cross over the Line of Control into Jammu and Kashmir.``

In winter 2000 I met with the Pakistani high commissioner to India. While waiting in his New Delhi embassy, I noticed a number of pro-Islamic, anti-Indian brochures neatly stacked on a shelf.

I asked, ``Does Pakistan support Muslim militants operating in India?`` ``No, no, that is just Indian propaganda,`` the commissioner replied. When I indicated the brochures, he said, ``Oh, they (fundamentalists) just leave those here.``

According to Singh, intelligence sources reveal that there are about 30,000 Pakistani operatives in India. It is widely known that in the past the ISI has had a cozy relationship with Muslim fundamentalists, but it now seeks to distance itself from the stigma of terrorism.

About 400,000 Hindus have been driven out of Kashmir, according to the Kashmiri Overseas Association USA. They wait for someone to restore peace to Kashmir, so they can return to their ``Paradise on Earth`` as the destitute Muslim population of Kashmir awaits the same ephemeral peace.

Mantoshe Singh Devji is a Phoenix writer whose new book is ``The Mad Messiah - Osama bin Laden, and the Seeds of Terror.`` She was born in Lahore, which is now Pakistan, and is of Indian origin. She has lived in the United States for 35 years.

re:Reply #: 26

Romair,

There is something called a public opinion in a democracy, which in case of India will never allow an outside interference in kashmir. No political party has the courage to go against public opinion. Indian politicians do not care what the world thinks of them as long as they ride with the public opinion (which tranlates into votes in and election).

Besides, it amuses me to see Pakis all the time calling in someone outside your country to take care of your problems. Are you guys not capableof doing anything? Americans are telling you how to run Madrasaas. IMF is in your country dictating how you should invest and manage your funds. It is not surprising that you see India in the same light.

Indians are fiercely independent. If they are co-operating with Americans today, it is because the policy change has the approval of majority Indians cutting across the political spectrum. A military dictator in your country is co-operating because his A$$ is on the firing line. That is the difference.

Why should India allow any 3rd party to monitor J and K elections? India`s EC has supervised elections for over 40 years now. It says the elections will be fair and we believe what it says.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 44

shammi,

Thanks for posting the article. I had a good laugh at the following statement by Hamid Gul:

``This is a democratic country,`` explained Gul. ``These groups are allowed their say.``

Sridhar

What is with these Pakistanis?

They go on and on about the freedom of expression of Kashmiris and the rigged elections in Kashmir. As an Indian, I know that India has to go a long way before it is an ideal democracy. However by any yardstick we are way, way ahead of Pakistan.

Like the old saying goes, those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others. First try to get out of this habit of periodic military dictatorships and then tell us what is wrong with our democratic process.

dost-mittar #53: ``this is your reaction to a human rights story of a Kashmiri?``

The Canadian winter seems to have gotten to your head :-)

What exactly was wrong with my response? All I said was the human rights organizations should be allowed into Kashmir, and Kashmiris should be asked what they want to do. They should not be dictated to. What is so disappointing about that. If the author is a Kashmiri, then he should be asked also. As should I.

This is what is advocated by all the human rights organizations in the world.

When I talked about the desire of one man to rule another, I was specifically refering to non-Kashmiris trying to subjugate Kashmiris. That is evident for everyone to see.

ibn times 6 equals Latif Chappu #36

Welcome back from your sabbatical. Hope all`s well in Chappustan.

re:Reply #: 383


fawad79,


You are just 23 and you watch C-Span! At your age, all i did was to watch some B-grade bollywood movie. Your posts also suggest you are an intelligent young lad with open ideas. Just keep your mind open and learn all the good things from everywhere, be it from hindus or jews or christians or what not. Every religion/culture has something good. I am learning this truth only now (and i am in my mid-30s).


rgds,


Sridhar

Crowing is enjoyable, and after reading today`s news I wish to crow a bit: Prior to the current crisis, and in response to some folks saying the Indian army was going to now take over Pakistan, I had predicted that India-Pakistan would go to the brink but no further. The reason I had explained was because with nukes the hides of decision-makers (and kin) in Delhi and Islamabad were now at risk of being tanned. Unlike 1965 and 1971 when the hides at risk were of nathu ram`s boy in the Indian army and allah ditta`s boy in the Pakistan army, who could be safely be ordered to start shelling, with decision-makers then giving medals to their families before the an admiring press afterwards.

Today, Dawn reports in seperate news items that both Musharaff and indian president hopeful Kalam basically saying the same thing (nukes prevented a war). Dont expect them, or any other politician like Advani-ji, to get into the details about exactly why nukes prevented the war: that is through placement of the hides of decision-makers in harms way, rather than of poor nathu ram`s boy and poor allah ditta`s boy. Of course, a few border villages on both sides can continue to be shelled regularly, since there is nothing to lose (except nathu ram`s and allah ditta`s home and means of livelihood, and maybe a few kids knocked off by stray shells).

I trust one day God will descend on earth on Judgement Day, and whip the hides of each an every individual who thinks some other individual`s life is worth less than his own.

temporal: In the maze of lower and of highest order jihads going on here at chowk, Kashmir and in South Aisa, in general, it is utmost important to think in terms of alleviating the miseries of all Kashmiris. It is something even god will appreciate more because it would not come at the expense of miseries of others. Jihad is not a win-win situation, instead it is clearly about taking sides between good and evil with the expectation of evil losing. How about trying to mend evil or better making the evil less important through creative and rational appraoches? That is clearly your approach and must be appreciated by all sensible interlocutors.

Regards,

Sameer

Ibn bin Ibn bin Ibn bin Ibn #69:

wallowing in futility…yes, sir:)

[..After the public dismemberment and dissection of my guru Latif Chappu’s genitallia at chowk…]

---you mean?…nah!…not possible…chowk running a cyber medical university?…when did it happen...where was i?…(just rhetorical queries…don’t bother answering)…may Hazrat Chappu rest in peace!…do know of some quacks and hakims that specialize in resurrection…(just a rhetorical offer:))…

[… visit sporadically to get a reluctant whiff of the vitriol…]

---is that a minor admission you are mildly hooked;)?…condolences sigh-ingly accepted…pass mine too…


________________________________________________


Urstruly #55:

(talking to myself: oof taubah…yeh log saaf saaf likhi baat ko paRRhtay kyuN nahin…kyuN ghalat matlab nikaltay haiN…three deep breaths…now!…)


[… I think Ali has answered your querry quite
accurately. His logic is clear identify the zulm & injustice - identify the zalim i.e. the perpetrator of that injustice and then do whatever humanly possible to prevent it….]

…look sir, the world knows who perpetrated the injustices all these years…and who abetted…AND the kashmiri civilians are the INNOCENT victims in all this…this was a given…and whether temporal mentions this or skips over this makes no difference to the query he is asking here… now WHAT NEXT?….now that the pakistanis have identified the ‘horrible hindus’…and the abdullahs and others…WHAT NEXT?…what can we do to resolve this? … how do we avoid more mayhem there?…for how long can this geographical entity continue to mortgage its future to Kashmir?…If we had free representation my vote would be for pakistan…with or without Kashmir…enough is enough…

rgds,

t

http://www.pakobserver.net/june2002/19/article04.shtml

``..The greater and most decisive question is whether the policies of the present Government of Pakistan, are pro-Pakistan, and pro-Kashmir, or not. Ever since Black Tuesday of 11th. September 2001, it has been succumbing to the Anglo-American and Indian pressure tactics in a marked manner. Mr G W Bush has dubbed Iraq, Iran and North Korea as the Axis of Evil. For Islam and the Muslim world, the Axis of Evil is the Anglo-American Coalition for terrorism, and the Indo-Israeli nexus, as is being proved by the current events in the Middle East, and South West Central Asia. It is heartening that Lt Gen (Retd) Hameed Gul is not alone in this assessment which is, in fact, of the majority of the Pakistani leadership and laiety, including the mainstream religious and ‘secular’ parties. The younger leadership like Imran Khan has displayed the moral courage to defend Jehad in principle, be it in Kashmir or Palestine...``

``.. India talks of the Islamic Jehadis most disrespectfully, as mercenaries and terrorists. What else can be expected from the enemy? The irony is that, poaching the concept of “Shahadat” (martyrdom) from Islam, the Indians call their own men killed in action as “Shaheeds”—“the Shuhada.” Now Shahadat is the product or result of Jehad.

The key to the future of Islam, the Muslim world and Pakistan lies collectively in Tauhid (unity) and Jehad. Certainly not in toeing the line of the Indo-Israeli, Anglo-American Axis of Evil, in regard to Jehad and Shahadat, by using the same language and idiom, and by equating them with terrorism, in policy decisions and repressive actions—which are bound to boomerang as Nemesis, sooner than later..``

India should offer grants for opening professional and technical colleges in PoK:

http://headlines.sify.com/973news5.html?headline=A