Coney Al Jazeera

RE Banjaara # 223

``Would be a good read if you could write another 200 pages :)``

Thank you for your kind words sir, though I have still got to write my yet to be published book who knows maybe one day those extra 200 pages will make it on paper.

re: fawad

{hey rsax if ur ever in the nyc area u me and harpreet can go to a bar and have a drink maybe meet some chicks tagteam effort?}

...sure, but i doubt i`ll be much help with the chicks...doesn`t harpreet live in london?...he`s supposed to be great at macking on chicks, so he can help there...zafar uncle used to be pretty slick with the girls back in his day too...although he`ll first send you to Diesel before revealing anything...

Fawad,

I am not a guy your age..(and thank God for that!!!), but azizam, your posts, such anguish..hai hai! Why worry about hooking up with white chicks, brown chicks any kind of chick (btw, they`re also called young women..but perhaps its the number of syllables men have to use, being monosyllabic is soooo much easier)

Take some advice from Ana aunty..beta, relax! Don`t be overanxious, take things easy, abhi to tum jawan ho..what`s the rush (omigod..yes, it`s the neverending blazing hormones, how silly of me!). There are ways to meet young women, establish common ground, make lasting friendships, treat her(them) as equals, and see where that takes you...

Of course if that`s not what you`re looking for, then disregard this interfering aunty`s request with her apologies :-)

Hobbyty,

re: ``Dirt and Desire: The Phenomenology of Female Pollution in Antiquity`` is an essay in Anne Carson`s book Men in the Off Hours; it is def. worth more the 12 dollars the paperback costs. She`s a genius poet/critical theorist who engages a great deal of Greek philosophy in her work.

``I want to point out that here the verb is ``tending`` - it is tending that is the active in culture - not ``natural growth`` - it is passive - and what might ``unnatural`` growth be?

Good question. My hard criteria for the un-naturalness of something is based on the destruction of self and others in a tortuous manner. For example, arguably a young man who ``lives fast, dies young and leaves a pretty corpse`` seems to be as eternal an archetype as a self immolating monk protesting US policy. I can`t necessarily condemn either. However, if a young man tortures himself or another person-I accept that such behavior may fall into the realm of human behavior and cannot make a value judgement of said behavior-HOWEVER, I can say that such behavior is unhealthy and the behavior of someone who is in pain or is ill. War is a state of psychic/physical/spiritual/emotional illness.

re:``... Today`s ``oppressive`` manners were not ``oppressive`` yesterday - if we shall not be mindful of this, we will risk becoming enveloped by constructs of relativism...``



I agree. However that should not prevent us from looking for the trajectories of those manners into our present day cultures-I contend that you`ll find its pretty much the same old story. Do you agree?



``... that is, that all text are silent and it is the ``training`` and knowledge that any person brings to a given text, is how we may understand the foundations of any particular interpretation. Would you agree?...``



I`m still out on that verdict; all texts are to me part of vast dialogues that we couldn`t possibly trace; its hard for me to experience any text as a flat, unalive medium. Can we claim that all music/dance/painting/craftwork/science is silent and depends solely on our interpretations? Or do some of us reach a generally consensual interpretation because an effective work of art has evoked primal fears/joys/subconsci in us? What happens to the other connections that are simultaneously made and unnoticed? On one hand, I believe the act of reading/writing is based on critical thinking processes that involve the connections of a million systems/references for the reader, training or no training. It is the task of the critical mind to keep her/himself open in understanding codes, genres and in making interdisciplinary and sometimes contrary linkages.

So good reading is an act of receiving, connecting, grappling, contextualizing, historicizing...

re:``.. our ideology should be constructed on our understanding of, and ``creation`` of, a balance between these ``higher and lower faculties...``

Well I don`t know what ``lower`` and ``higher`` faculties are. I remain by contention that humans are the most base and wretched form of life on this earth-i.e. we systematically exploit each other and this planet in ways no animal species has ever had. Our ``higher`` faculties have made us owners and not an organically a part of this planet.

re:``... Do you think there is merit to the proposition that ``feminization`` refers to exactly the kind of paradox Eagleton constructs: that it is artificial, even as it suggests it`s ``natural`` origin and ``rootedness``? Seems to me, that there is a kind of positive/negative, Yin/Yang, Male/Female kind of tension that holds up the construct, culture and that this tension is instructive...``

Could you please post the Eagleton para in question?

re:``... Does the Self have an ``autonomous existence`` in nature? that is, is there such a thing as Self in nature? Isn`t that ``consciousness`` exactly what nature is not? Something akin to ``you can`t go home...``? ...``

I don`t know. Its pretty anthrocentric to assume that the human mode of ``self`` is the only form of consciousness, when all we seem to want is ``flow`` and natural grace in ourselves and in the world. In other words, animals seem to exist in a state of regenerative harmony. They simply are. So we as humans place ourselves above animals because we have ``higher faculties`` and spend humankind trying to acheive that naturalness in the world animals have....

re: ``...I don`t know if you are familiar with the ``Epic of Gilgamesh`` - if you are, don`t you think the same themes are explored in it - the meaning of the natural and the cultured, of knowledge and innocence?...``

I last studied Gilgamesh seven years ago; let me do some refreshing of my memory.

re:``... Eagleton clarifies: ``Those who cultivate the land are less able to cultivate themselves. Agriculture leaves no leisure for culture.`` - It is interesting that he does not continue this line of reasoning to take it into urban life. Does factory work leave relatively more leisure time than agricultural work - or what about those who find they must do two jobs? - No, Eagleton devises a definition to suit his purpose: e.g, If we can agree that while distinct, all kinds of work and the need for ``dignified`` life - while engendering labor with ``dignity`` leaves little time for leisure, for cultivating the self - but why does the cultivation occur as prominently among urban dwellers? What other characteristics of ``culture might we explore to get a better understanding of why it is that culture is more prominent in urban settings and not agricultural settings?...``

I would need to know what his def. of cultivation is. I doubt Eagleton would reduce the urban, industrialized experience as less potentially exploitative and difficult than agricultural labor....however, there probably is much more possibility of class, political, social, gender and economic (and therefore cultural and material consumerism) fluidity. One`s income and social strata may change more readily than in agricultural contexts.

Temporal,

``been to countless gatherings where in the entrance parlour or hall the wind blows strongly``

haha. winds to hamari taraf bhi bohat chal rahin aaj kal, though of a less sinister kind. karachi wears the most beautiful look these days. aajaye?

would love to read that poem.

love,

aamir

temporal baba!!! glad you came out of hibernation, even if for a little bit, you`ve been missed! :-)

But your little note to me has left me somewhat confused..and rather than going through and figuring out what I`ve been saying ..mein bas itna kahoongi ke..I`m not too familiar with Bina or Nilufer, but I will definitely find out more...and..my lecture, the class I`m teaching has to do with women writing about war, and it was a difficult enough choice, choosing what I did..didn`t want to lean more towards South Asia, or the Middle East..but there`s so much to talk about, and so little class time..oof!

But if you`re talking about the list of writers I put down, was it on this board..for the young Fawad`s benefit (and hopefully others) then by all means, we should include Bina Shah, and Nilufer Farrukh..thank you for pointing that out.

Love your bit about the invisible handcuffs and all..and wished you had shared more about books, and all the other hot, juicy (!) topics, but when you have the time, as well as the inclination..but for now, I must run. take care, enjoy the lecture..let us know how it went....

love, a.

Subroto # 207

``Well its better to socialise with Cats, who don’t have that kind of `hang-ups`. In my personal experience, it’s a fallacy to think `ordinary Cats wont accept you`. If you adapt to their culture & respect their value system, they are some of the most unprejudiced animals I know.``

Verrry funny. Reminds me of Krishan Chander and

his famous `` Ek gadhe ki sar guzasht``.Would be a

good read if you could write another 200 pages :)

Regards.

PM,

{{is there any real (say ideological) reason you two should act so lovey dovey all the time??}}

Heheh...saxena & I share a loving bond of friendship based upon PURE hatred..why? who the heck remembers?; aint important:)... except that we are much more comfortable hating each..both of us feel an acute sense of discomfort if we ever--even unwittingly--agree on anything..its a unique & cherished bond between 2 faceless voices in cyberspace...

if that sh ithead ever left chowk, i`d be devastated...i would miss hating him sooo much & i know he would miss it too:)

PS: but sometimes I get this very very uncomfortable feeling that he likes my posts..cos he actually READS them & then pretends he`s bored & says ``yawn..who cares..``

SaminaShah

Super post - so much fun.

Dirt and Desire - where do I find it ? have a link? or just send it to me as an email attachment.

``One of it`s original meanings is ``husbandry``, or the tending of natural growth...``

I want to point out that here the verb is ``tending`` - it is tending that is the active in culture - not ``natural growth`` - it is passive - and what might ``unnatural`` growth be?

``It can be if we are not critical and vigilant about what these ideas are and how, why, when and where they are used in oppressive manners``

I`m sure we agree on the notion of sex as an idea (among other things) in culture. Of course we must try to be critical in a constructive manner. I think that it is very difficult to impossible, to discern the potential of some ideas to be used in ``oppressive manners`` - in the present sense - as time passes we can evaluate them and do evaluate them with lens/light that is different, from when we first encounter the idea. You may recall we discussed that we can indeed learn from history and in particular, we can understand women in history with a combination of how persons made a living and how the sexes viewed themselves and each other. Today`s ``oppressive`` manners were not ``oppressive`` yesterday - if we shall not be mindful of this, we will risk becoming enveloped by constructs of relativism.

``I refer you to an interesting book by Marlene Zuk entitled Sexual Selections: What We Can and Can`t Learn About Sex From Animals as reviewed in last Sunday`s NYT`s book review section. According to the author, humans have the propensity to impose their own interpretations of the animal/natural world to bolster a political agenda.``

An excellent insight, I`m in general cautious of transposing ``truths`` of the animal world to human society, however; this instance seems to confirm the point about ``theory int LIGHT of...`` that is, that all text are silent and it is the ``training`` and knowledge that any person brings to a given text, is how we may understand the foundations of any particular interpretation. Would you agree?

``the unpalatable truth that female selection (based on male animal symbols of virility) was a driving force in choosing procreation partners, (based on the ideation of female ``passivity``) humans impose interpretations on the natural world that are simply untrue.``

Yet another confirming instance: In my experience and I would be willing to bet a dollar for a dime, in the experience of all men: men understand only too well, just who does the ``selecting`` -

``Are we encouraged to think critically about our need to find self reflection and self reference in the natural world to justify our particular ideologies? Are we encourage to interrogate culture in the same way? If so, why? If not, why not?``

Thank God for that - you had me panicked, I thought I had lost you - ``reference in the natural world``?? Your Nietzsche is showing - We are not just ``nature``, we are more, we are ``reasoning`` (not that it`s evident) - ideally, (another `poor` word) our ideology should be constructed on our understanding of, and ``creation`` of, a balance between these ``higher and lower faculties`` - Do you think there is merit to the proposition that ``feminization`` refers to exactly the kind of paradox Eagleton constructs: that it is artificial, even as it suggests it`s ``natural`` origin and ``rootedness``? Seems to me, that there is a kind of positive/negative, Yin/Yang, Male/Female kind of tension that holds up the construct, culture and that this tension is instructive. - No we do not and I suggest we ought not ``interrogate culture`` from an or all ideologies rooted in the natural world. Nature does not have ``moralic acid``, human society must, it is based on it. Recall the notion that if culture means husbandry, it means ``regulation`` and spontaneous growth`` and ``Self-overcoming as much as self-realization.`` Culture is itself ``artificial`` with reference to the natural world and indeed it would be calling to the most elastic of definitions of culture to suggest that it is the same as nature. Does the Self have an ``autonomous existence`` in nature? that is, is there such a thing as Self in nature? Isn`t that ``consciousness`` exactly what nature is not? Something akin to ``you can`t go home...``? I don`t know if you are familiar with the ``Epic of Gilgamesh`` - if you are, don`t you think the same themes are explored in it - the meaning of the natural and the cultured, of knowledge and innocence? Indeed, would your question be relevant or even be meaningful, if we could posit the self in the natural world?

``Is Eagleton referring to the transformation of feudalistic societies to industrialization attendant with the hierarchies of state/political/religious/business systems? Or is he commenting on the urban space as being an site of the constructors and consumers of things and ideas?``

Yes, I think so! Notice: ````if the word culture...it also encodes a number of key philosophical issues.``

``Eagleton`s point that the labor and ownership of land; the relationship between farmers and their soil and product is increasingly eclipsed by an industrialized existence that severs the tie between worker and the object of his/her labor in many ways.``

No, I don`t think it is a point he is making here, but were we to infer a mastery, a suppleness, an ease, that Eagleton has with the ``scriptures`` of the left, we would not be of the mark. Eagleton clarifies: ``Those who cultivate the land are less able to cultivate themselves. Agriculture leaves no leisure for culture.`` - It is interesting that he does not continue this line of reasoning to take it into urban life. Does factory work leave relatively more leisure time than agricultural work - or what about those who find they must do two jobs? - No, Eagleton devises a definition to suit his purpose: e.g, If we can agree that while distinct, all kinds of work and the need for ``dignified`` life - while engendering labor with ``dignity`` leaves little time for leisure, for cultivating the self - but why does the cultivation occur as prominently among urban dwellers? What other characteristics of ``culture might we explore to get a better understanding of why it is that culture is more prominent in urban settings and not agricultural settings?

Parties? What bores! No one knows how to behave in a civil manner anymore and the notion of having FUN seems to have been lost somewhere - I can`t wait for this idiot dam to burst.

anNy jaan..the winds are blowing, hain? I hope they are cool ones..woh kya purana gana hai, `thandi hawaain, lehra ke chal deen..` oof, I`m sure I`ve gotten it wrong..ah well. About Fahmida Riaz, I haven`t heard anything about her not being alive..and I`ve only seen tasveerain of her, but nothing like what you describe, so the answer to your questions are..pata nahin. She was at a conference just this last March, but I am curious, has she returned to Pakistan to live? I know she left during the dark ages of Zia.

So you read the English translations of Lihaaf and Bichoo?? I was just looking through the book at our public library (thank goodness, American libraries in smaller cities than New York are catching on to the beauty of Indian/Pakistani literature), and I knew that Tahira Naqvi had done the translations..I think she does an excellent job translating, yaar..and her own work is very good. Have you read her `Attar of Roses?`

Chalo, pata hai, tum kuch Chowkwalon se tang aagayi ho (mera bhi yehi haal hai), par kabhi kabar apna dhyan yahan diya karo..theek hai? :-)

rsax

starbucks is way too expensive worth it but way too expensive ...........

hey rsax if ur ever in the nyc area u me and harpreet can go to a bar and have a drink maybe meet some chicks tagteam effort?

this is for all the guys my age why is that maybe its just me i have a hard time hookin up with white chicks ?????????????

sammi 212:
and ana, shanker, aamir ansari, anNy and friends)

finally…could not resist pinsky…even tho’ was tempted to join in that thread with authors and book lists…and the veiled discussions on desi sexuality…and that descriptive desi party syndrome where women discuss jewellery and saris and men ‘paaliticks’ over single malts and/or stale tea and samosas…

…lots of interesting things have been happening of lately…including a recent ‘rediscovery’ that there are only 24 hours I can play with…and blending the 86,400 seconds with the ‘legendary’ temporalian procrastination leads me to here…meaning am so far behind in personal correspondence…(friends and yaars---do understand and forgive---and yes the email is in the mail:))…

…(observation)….guys and gals here are doing fine taking the zip outta otherwise interesting topic…desi sexual mores…more like the absence of it and stretching and blending it with grace and sly of hand ;) with defunct victorian prudence…horror of horrors…we are desis…we are married and/or unmarried desis…we do no such thing…hey, didja read that poem?…

…been to countless gatherings where in the entrance parlour or hall the wind blows strongly…pushing men towards one room and women to another…smoke, hockey or baseball or nfl or elections or speech were the smokescreens…even otherwise sane reasonable friends would meekly succumb…till my partner in crime and i resolved that never again…never again would we be separated…so we would use invisible hand cuffs…and initially this was resisted…horror of horrors…a lady amidst men…then one would saunter over ostensibly to bring tea…and would linger…then another….and slowly over time it grew and folks understood…so what if we were not invited to some gatherings…the ones we attended were collectively better…and we did not miss the segregated ones…

re: your noble tho’ slightly unwarranted eggings on…am referring to cyber ‘aag ka pheras’…and here i was brushing up on old b&w movies….the ones where one of the elders wore a faded dressing gown, over striped pjs, smoked a pipe, and drove a convertible caddy along winding roads….or wore jodhpurs and riding boots and rode ferociously all over the terrain…with loud screeching music as accompaniment, arriving in the nick of time to stop the pheras…whew…all in vain… the chosen candidates did not share your vibes or enthusiasm…
(AnNy:…tonight…we are going to a niilofur farrukh’s illustrated lecture on “an agenda of conscience: tradition, art, politics in pakistan”…yes anNy-penNy…niilofer is visiting T.O…)

Ana: your lecture sounds interesting…missing from your list is a regular chowkie author bina shah…why, I wonder?…and niilofer too, with her ‘landmark’ book about the three artists…had an interesting poem about certain desi couples…if i find it would post it again…aamir you have not read it and perhaps you’d like it too…

…and samm…this pow-wow…where?…and why ladies only?…khair…koi baat nahiN…as long as you make it to TO some time (with Mr. S of course)…and will gather some more chowkies here…

(ok, back into hibernation)

lve,
t

Samina, Shankar...#203

I actually stopped going to `desi` parties because of the gendered division. Everytime I would go, men log wahan, women log yahan...I don`t remember being at parties in Pakistan where such divisions were observed, but then I wasn`t around the `grownups` all that much. Returning to America however, and then as a college student, finally being able to go out and meet various Pakistanis, Indians, and go to parties, it was rather a shock. I remember one time, my ex-fiance and I were going to a family (his) gathering, also attended by close friends (theirs), and I told him I didn`t feel comfortable at parties where men were on one side of the room and women were on the other, and he told me in not so many words that that was the way it was. He comes from a traditional family though, whereas mine leans more toward the moderate side (at least part of my family does).

I have to say, in some cases, there may be social pressure to act and behave in a certain way..Samina remember that story I told you about the aunty? I can relate to Shankar`s wife`s experiences, because even though I speak the language, I just can`t relate a lot of the time.

I love being in the company of desi women..as long as they don`t tease me or press the question about why I am still a singleton (too much Bridget Jones..tra la la!). And depending on what kind of group it is, we don`t just talk about recipes, and the latest fashions! But every now and then, I look at that divide..where the men are drinking their whiskeys and whatnot and talking with such `josh`...not with envy, but with questions, and more questions.

re. RSax #209

Why? What`d he ever do yo YOU?

re: Stuka

{Man I wish I had friends from Wellesley...}

...actually, they`re dangerous...be careful...i know about this firsthand...

{the only people I met at the stupid rally was Sardars..nothing against Sardars...but u really don`t feel motivated to ask a Sardar for a phone number to discuss ``peace issues`` over a coffee...}

...hmmm...have you considered `volunteering` for green peace or your local amnesty international chapter?...you may find more suitable company for starbucks there...haha