Shadowlines (Part I)

Re: sadna

``...God forbid I am more than a passive migrant and want political rights too as a Hindu in a Muslim-dominant country...``

How about basic human rights in Gujarat? If you had to chose -- be a Hindu in S. Arabia or a Muslim in Gujarat, where would you go? Not very pretty choices are they?

Re: my previous post

``BJP is redrawing its strategy around bread and butter issues...``

Oops -- my mistake. The Congress is gearing up to fight on these issues, while the BJP is going to reemphasize Hindutva (with the elevation of Advani).

Re: Romair

``...Based on this, I fail to understand why the Muslims in India do not form a united voting block...``

Actually they do to a certain extent -- Muslim voters use their votes with a certain degree of sophistication (in the words of MJ Akbar). After Babri Masjid, they deserted the Congress en mass and this has led to three developments -- (alaph) loss of power for the Congress, (bay) the emergence of secular alternatives in the form of Bahujan Samaj Party, Rashtriya Janata Dal, Samajwadi Party, etc. and (tay) the strengthening of regional parties like Telegu Desam, AIADMK and DMK (sorry -- very long names).

In the decade since Babri, and in the last 5 years, the victim of this desertion has been the Congress, and the beneficiaries have been the BJP (principally due a fragmentation of the Opposition) and the numerous parties mentioned above that have occupied the vacuum created by the Congress. The BJP, despite its gains in the last Parliamentary elections in October `99, had Kargil and Musharraf to thank as much as anybody else. Still, despite the lift generated by Kargil, BJP does not have enough votes to rule outright without coalition partners. What you are seeing now is BJP reorganizing to fight (having done poorly in all state elections -- there are 10 more states coming online for elections next year) and redrawing its strategy around bread and butter issues. The battle lines are being drawn for 2004. There is no question that what held the Congress back in the past and also in the Parliamentary crisis after Gujarat is the possibility that Sonia Gandhi might become PM. Indeed in `96 (BJP`s first stint in office) might not have happened had Sonia not headed the Congress -- Mulayam Singh Yadav of Samajwadi Party indicated that he could not support an Italian as a PM. Had there been anybody else being projected as a PM, chances are that the NDA would have cracked during the censure motion debate earlier this year. Sensing this weakness of the Congress and other would-be defectors in the NDA coalition, the BJP has already projected a future PM (Advani) much before any other party has, while the Opposition is divided and unable to spell out who would lead in the case of a victory. This is a strategic blunder that will cost them in the end. For in the absence of a clear choice of a leader, Sonia cannot be ruled out as becoming a PM. This may cost them an election.

There is another phenomenon that should be mentioned - voters are sophisticated enough to differentiate between what can be delivered by a state govt. versus a national govt. In `84, when elections were held in Karnataka on the same day for Parliament and the state assembly, voters sent the Congress to power in Delhi, and the Opposition to power in Bangalore. Why? In `84, after Indira`s assasination, and at the height of the Punjab insurgency, the #1 issue at the national level was `national integration`, whereas Karnataka (along with other states) felt snubbed by Congress` disrespect for states` rights -- precisely the conditions that led to the Punjab situation in the first place. The split verdict sent the perfect message. The same logic applies today -- national security and states` rights dominate as issues in Delhi, and the BJP`s credentials in that area stand it in good stead. The BJP (principally Vajpayee) has an admirable record in attracting allies and in sharing power with the Akalis in Punjab, National Conference in Kashmir, DMK in Tamil Nadu, Telegu Desam in AP, and the bizarre alliance with BSP in UP. No other party has been able to pull off anything like this. That explains the BJP`s recent success. But in state elections, national issues become a cropper -- the BJP campaigned in UP on the basis of a fight against terrorism, and it was mauled. Yet, it was from Lucknow in UP that Vajpayee was elected for Parliament. Most voters also seem to think that preventing Gujarat type of a situation is best controlled by a state govt. and it remains to be seen how Modi fares when tempers cool and elections are held there next year. Now, if there is another Gujarat somewhere else, then voters might do a rethink -- I expect that the issue of a censure vote in Parliament might come up again, and perhaps the NDA might not be so lucky a second time around. I am sure that Muslim sentiments (amongst many other issues) are part of the calculus of the regional parties supporting the NDA, and on how they will approach the voters in 2003 and 2004.

Perhaps, you would like to see the emergence of a Muslim League of pre-Partition influence. You must realize that even Jinnah`s League was largely a coalition that relied upon many regional parties from Bengal and Punjab. Other reasons why this has not happened yet:

Maybe because things have not yet reached the boiling point that they did in pre-Partition India? Maybe because all politics are local in the words of former US House Speaker Tip O`Neil, and that events in one part of the country do not affect another part (yet)? Maybe because there is no official discrimination on the basis of religion in India?

All of the above could change for the worse, and should that happen maybe the party that you talk about may yet emerge.

Stuka #47

As a Hindu, huge portions of the world are absolutely unwelcoming to me as a nonMuslim migrant. God forbid I am more than a passive migrant and want political rights too as a Hindu in a Muslim-dominant country, I can never advance more than a `separate minority whose rights are protected but who can NEVER be equal`. There are many countries in the world where Muslims from anywhere can migrate without ANY of these limitations and even demand special treatment(as in UK and France), including India which is still accepting migrants of any religion.

I donot see this a Hindu-Muslim thing, I think of it as a political Islam thing. Political Hinduism is quite as bad and I have spoken any number of times about this on chowk including drawing a parallel between the TNT of Pakistan and Hindutva.

And in my class V we had Premchand`s Idgah.

Was Ehsan Jafri`s head really decapitated and carried around in the streets of Ahmadabad? Who carried it around, and why?

I had heard that his whole family was electrocuted by the BJP folks. I didn`t know his head was carried around in the streets.

There is a general rule that one only gets what one is willing to fight for. By, ``fight`` I don`t mean physical fighting, but some sort of a struggle. Others will only come to help if their personal interests are involved. The African Americans are no longer called, ``niggers;`` not because the White Americans, all of a sudden, had a benovelant change of heart, but because the American blacks, lead by an American black, demanded their rights and struggled for them. Women have a strong position in the US society, not because the American male had a change of heart, but because women, led by women, forced their rights to be accepted.

There has been some hue and cry about the BJP politics in India. But apparently, it seems to only be on the surface. The NDA parties are still aligned with the BJP (I believe only one quit the alliance). And Advani has now been promoted (I think after the next election, Vajpayee is history; poor guy started out being liked by the extremists and the moderates, and has ended his career being hated by both the extremists and the moderates). Even Vinod Khanna and Shatru Sinha are now following the path of Advani (I thought artsy fartsy folks were not extremists). If the BJP doesn`t win the next elections (which it probably won`t), and ends up as the main opposition (which it will), then it will be even a bigger problem, than it is now.

Based on this, I fail to understand why the Muslims in India do not form a united voting block. There are 140 million Muslims, or more, in India. How many die-hard BJP supporters are there? Maybe 220 million or so. 140 million vs. 220 million; how come the 220 million have completely run over the 140 million?

How could the voice of 140 million people be ignored in a democracy. The Indian coalition govts. have been brought to their knees by tiny little parties, with only a few seats. Why can so many Indian Muslims not influence govt. policy to the point that the BJP folks are sidelined?

Currently, it seems like the Indian Muslims have completely handed over their future to the whims of the BJP and the Congress. It is a proven fact in history, that relying on others to protect one`s interests, is rarely fruitful.

I regularly try to read articles, replies, discussions etc. by Indian Muslims. And one gets the feeling that there is a genuine sense of fear and helplessness in their minds, at the moment. The fear part is understandable, but why the helplessness?

re: tahmed

{I think people come to Pakistan for two or three different reasons: From the subcontinent (Bangaldesh/India) they come for economic reasons.}

...people go from india to pak for economic reasons?...what did you smoke before you wrote that?...

Urstruly,

#46

Ahhh! beta!!! There you are!

Dummy me! Wanted to go fishing on July 4 weekend..after all, which terrorist would want to hit a boatful of 3 brain dead docs, right?:)

But its 5:30 AM, raining, choppy on the Bay, fish arent biting & all of us are feeling miserable & sick. So I open my laptop & decide to see whats happening on Chowk.

Guess what! I accidentally stumble upon my favourite mullah from Michigan!!!

Yaro, kahan gayab ho gaye?!:)

Youre right about Advani though. Serves India right for allowing that bloody Pakistani sanctuary in India.

Gahhh...I`m feeling worse now...I think i`m gonna throw up....

Dear Urstruly . . . sorry, I cant hear you too well, yoiur wit in the past was wittier and your prose in the past was prosier . . . everybody outside is singing and shouting in joy at your message of goodwill.

regards/veeresh

ps: no, that was possibly your shadow . . .

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Indian experts doubt train torched from outside

AHMEDABAD, India, July 3 (Reuters) - Indian forensic experts have cast doubt on police statements that an arson attack on a train that triggered a wave of deadly religious violence was carried out by a Muslim mob hurling petrol.



A forensic report said the sleeping car in which 59 Hindus were burnt alive in late February in western Gujarat state was set ablaze inside. This contradicted the police version that the train caught fire when a crowd of Muslims threw buckets of petrol at it from outside.



``The inspection of the tracks and burning pattern on the exterior of the coach confirm the inflammable liquid did not come from outside,`` said the report obtained by Reuters on Wednesday.



The report by a Gujarat government state laboratory did not try to assign responsibility for the attack in Godhra, 150 km (95 miles) northwest of Ahmedabad, the province`s main city.



The pendulum of blame has swung wildly since the torching of the coach which set off a wave of reprisal killings in which officials say at least 1,000 people, mostly Muslims, lost their lives in India`s worst religious violence in a decade.



Human right groups put the death toll at over 2,500.



At first, the Hindu nationalist-led government suggested ``outside forces including the ISI`` -- the Inter-Services Intelligence agency of Pakistan with which India is locked in a military standoff -- could have been responsible.



There were also reports the attack in the market town could have been planned by militants fighting Indian rule in Kashmir and others who talked of a conspiracy by local Muslims.



The report was prepared by forensic experts who re-enacted the attack. It said at least 60 litres of inflammable liquid were splashed inside one end of a coach and set alight. If the liquid had been thrown from outside, the flames should have engulfed the coach from underneath.



In their re-enaction using water, the experts found only 10 to 15 percent of the liquid thrown from outside a coach went inside while the rest spilled onto the tracks.



The report also said three of the coach`s four doors were open at the time of the attack contrary to witness accounts that passengers locked the doors and windows to escape stone pelting.



The report forms part of a police chargesheet. Fifty-four people have been charged so far in connection with the attack.



A senior police official, who declined to be named, said the report would not be the ``sole factor determining the case. There are dozens of witnesses accounts which are equally important.``



07/03/02 13:30 ET

Copyright 2002 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

Sadna: Will u marry me?

SADNA SiS I DONT SEE YOU RESEARCHING THE POSSIBILITY THAT MAY BE JUST, MAY BE GODHRA MUSLIM WERE DOUBLE VICTIM OF HINDUTVA LIES...FiRST PINNED WRONGFULLY ,SECOND BRUTALLY JUSTIFIABLY MURDERED FOR GODHRA BY YOUR GREAT SENSE OF JUSTICE & HINDU PHILOSOPHY ??????????AND YOU R THE ONE TO CAST ASPERSIONS OF DOUBT & UNBELIEVABILITY OPN PAKISTANIS . IN MY EYES DAWOOD IS BETTER HUMAN THAN YOU .

http://headlines.sify.com/popwin.html

Forensic report adds new twist to Godhra carnage

Ahmedabad, July 4

Forensic police in Gujarat said Wednesday that a fire that killed 59 people in a train coach in February, was not a result of burning objects thrown from outside.

``The forensic report has stated that an inflammatory liquid was poured from inside, from within the compartment, rather than what we have believed till now that it was thrown from outside by a mob,`` senior investigation officer of Rakesh Asthana told AFP.

On February 27, a train compartment carrying Hindus from Ayodhya was set ablaze allegedly by a Muslim mob at Godhra.

Fifty-nine people in the coach were burnt to death and Gujarat was thrown into a cauldron of Hindu-Muslim riots that continued until the end of May, killing nearly 1,000 people, mostly Muslims. Unofficial figures put the toll at more that 2,000.

A large number of arrests, including those of local Muslim leaders in Godhra, were made for igniting the riots.

Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee also blamed the Godhra incident for sparking the riots. However, a report prepared by the Forensic Science Laboratory(FSL), the theory that a mob set ablaze the train coach has been turned down, Asthana said.

The report is based on study of the pattern of the crime inside the compartment and a simulated exercise conducted a month back at the site of the tragedy.

The report has come as surprise to those investigating the Godhra case and so far held the view that the mob attacked the train and threw inflammable material from distance using buckets and cans even as passengers had shut the door and windows.

Dear Hindus,

This seems to be a good year for you. Congratulations. I hope you guys get the cow dung patent soon. Traditional wisdom... haha

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=12247

Indian patents cow urine for medicinal use

Press Trust of India

``A combination of Indian traditional wisdom and modern science has led to a unique US patent No 6,410,059 that was granted to Indian scientists on June 25, 2002,`` an excited Joshi said at a special function in New Delhi.

ArjunM

``GASP!! casteism in the land of the pure!! surely you jest.``

Thank you! Sadly it`s no jest - more of the deconstruction, regression of society and morality - I`m quite surprized that more interlocutors have not commented on this outrage. Don`t stop and make it cut deep, to the bone - there has to be an awakening, an introspection, a reevaluation. For what it`s worth, your criticism has been apt but usually gets lost in the childish aspect of post - that does not mean that your criticism is not apt and NEEDED.

abey kanjar Urstruly (46), why not weep for justice in pakistan dear friend. here is a story which should bring forth all your bile. Even the mullahs were onlookers, hey maybe they had hardons whilst the sodomy on a boy and a gang rape of a 18 year old quraanic scholar were being carried out and were gratifying themselves.

I always thought Pakistani men were truly men not the eunuchs of india. Abey yahan koyeen mard hai.

Hai besharamoun. There is not one man amongst you cowards.

SHAME. SHAME. SHAME. SHAME.

The state, panchayat and evil justice

Nasim Zehra

The writer is an Islamabad-based

commentator on security issues

nasimzehra@hotmail.com



Stunned and outraged thousands of Pakistanis read the AFP story of how evil justice was dispensed by a panchayat in the Jatoi subdivision of district Muzzafargarh. The villagers caught a local 11-year-old minor sexually abusing a local girl. According to the news item the boy against whom some villagers committed sodomy was retrieved by the local police. Subsequently 11000 rupees paid by the family as bribe prompted the boy`s release from the police. The 11-year-old`s 18-year-old sister, a hafiz Qur`aan and a Qur`aan teacher to some village girls, was summoned by the panchayat. Reportedly panchayat members assured the girl`s security. The family sent her. She presented herself before the armed men of the panchayat. They issued their ruling. That four chosen men would rape this 18-year-old Qur`aan teacher. She would be made to pay for her 11-year-old brother`s sins.

The ruling was carried out. Four men followed her to a nearby quarter. The girl was repeatedly raped. Naked she was made to walk away in the presence of five hundred to nine hundred people. All this happened on June 22nd. It went un-noted by the local police. They knew about it. Maybe the power of influentials prevented the registering of a police report. However the news of this `happening` spread to the nearby towns. The AFP reporter Abdus Sattar Qamar filed a story. A man with an acute sense of injustice, as a reporter with The Muslim in Islamabad, Qamar had filed the story of six or seven women being paraded naked by the local landlords of Multan during General Ziaul Haq`s martial law days. The naked parade was an act of revenge. The male members from these women`s families had done some wrong. They were to be punished through this `naked` parade. Qamar`s story in The Muslim was noted by the Zia government. The press persisted with the story, giving regular updates. Women`s organisations too got mobilised. Finally those responsible for humiliating and violating the dignity and honour of the women were punished. Reportedly ten years imprisonment plus 10 lashes each. It was not one that his agency would readily carry.

Qamar`s latest story was one that AFP was hesitant to run. This was an impossible `happening.` After verification of the facts AFP released the story. It was also picked up by others. Nya Daur, a local newspaper of Multan brought out a special one-page report with firsthand accounts and photographs. Why did the locals who were watching this `happening` not react? Simple. The panchayat was armed. People disapproved of what was happening but not enough to risk their own lives. Even the local mosque imams and other religious men strongly condemned the `happening`. She is a hafiz Qur`aan and a Qur`aan teacher and they were particularly upset that she was violated in this manner. All this opinion however afterwards could not translate into a preventive factor. The hafiz Qur`aan still was raped by four men on order.

It is hard to proceed on. What does one write? How do you label such a happening? Animalism? No, surely animals have some rules of interaction. The animal world too must function according to some ethic. Calling it a crime is understating the fact. To say it was a hellish event would also not be correct. Hell too would be hard but not so violative of every particle of decency, rationality and propriety. Let the `happening` remain unlabelled. Let us ask ourselves what after all was the worldview of this panchayat which issued such a ruling? What is the context in which such a worldview emerges, evolves, survives and also is allowed to become ascendant? What are the factors that allow free play of wild whims?

These were men who considered revenge, sheer vile form of it sadism, as justice. Allowing sodomy on the one hand and ordering rape on the other. Both are punishable crimes according to the law of Pakistan. The government has to now demonstrate to the people of Pakistan, through quick and concrete action that those responsible for ordering and implementing evil justice will be accordingly punished. The issue of the weak versus the powerful in society, the prevention of sheer brute force dominating the weaker, the financially strong dismissing law of the land for their own versions of `justice` are all issues that only an efficient state apparatus can resolve. Devolution plans etc are secondary requirements.

The hell that broke loose on that 18-year-old woman and subsequently on her family raises many issues. To what extent have sections of any society, anywhere in the world, understood the message and dictates of Islam when it comes to human decency and women?

Women in many instances, unless themselves empowered or fortunate to be in enlightened households and in a responsibly functioning state, are treated as subhuman. As ones who can freely be `used` to settle scores, must blindly be made to obey instructions. It is about sheer brute force.

Also the panchayat`s evil justice is about the dividends of a weak and ineffective state. In these times of struggle and strife, and of heightened anger and reaction we need a credible state to operate as a fair arbitrator in society. After all, the state is required to provide the context in which human goodness flourishes. It does flourish also in a specific context; familial, social and statist. For the blossoming of a human being, individual and collective, spiritual, social and economic, the role of the state cannot be undermined.

There is also a key role, indeed an operational objective, of religion in sensitising society. Through promotion of higher values that are both people-centred and people friendly. However religion or religious teachings have a minimal role to play. What religion teaches too flourishes within the context of a credible state. Insensitivity and dehumanisation flourishes in a de-sensitised and non-credible state structure. Hundreds after all looked on as the 18-year-old woman was paraded naked after being raped. In a Muslim society.

Urstruly (46) and others:

Why comment on the dirty hindus? They can take care of themselves. See the *hit we are in. I have said before Musharaf`s days are numbered.

Here is the latest editorial from the New York Times. Sir(s) your comments and analytical mind shuld be brought to this article and we should know of your thoughts on this. Dont duck urstruly. The pig-swill is on our collective face.

I am cutting and pasting the whole article here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/03/opinion/03WED2.html

Political Quicksand in Pakistan

The United States has no more important ally in the war against terrorism than Pakistan. Were Pakistan and its nuclear weapons to fall under the control of Islamic fundamentalists, American security would be gravely threatened. That is why it is critically important that Gen. Pervez Musharraf deal smartly with the rising challenge to his pro-Western, secular rule. Mounting criticism from Islamic militants and the mainstream press has started to focus on his decision to ally Pakistan with the United States, and on the recent American pressure on Pakistan to stop aiding the Islamic guerrillas in neighboring Kashmir. The general has also infuriated many political leaders by moving to consolidate and enhance his powers in spite of his earlier pledge to restore self-government. These are serious problems that could abruptly undercut Pakistan`s role in the war on terrorism.

Since Sept. 11, General Musharraf has engaged in an impressive balancing act, shifting his nation from its longtime support for the Taliban in Afghanistan to an alliance with the United States against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Last January he gave a historic speech explaining why Pakistan must align itself with the West and against Islamic militant hatred of America. It was a courageous address at a pivotal moment for Pakistan and the United States.

More recently the general has drawn criticism over the involvement of the Pakistani military in chasing after Al Qaeda forces in the semiautonomous northwest tribal areas, especially after 10 Pakistani soldiers died in an unsuccessful raid on a suspected Qaeda hideout. But General Musharraf has most overplayed his hand in matters related to Pakistan`s continuing support of the anti-India uprising in Kashmir and by his move to undercut, in advance, the results of the parliamentary election scheduled for later this year.

The explosive Kashmir situation has eased somewhat, in part because of the general`s assurances that Pakistan would halt its aid to militant groups operating in what is India`s only Muslim-dominated state. In the face of criticism in the press and elsewhere that he has been too compliant toward President Bush, who demanded a cutoff in aid to Kashmiri militants, General Musharraf must work harder to make Pakistanis aware that support of violence in Kashmir or anywhere else can only undercut the nation`s stability.

As for democratic self-rule, General Musharraf has unfortunately succumbed to a dismal pattern that has recurred throughout Pakistan`s history. He seized power from an elected government headed by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, with whom the public was clearly disenchanted. What General Musharraf has forgotten is that the public can become quickly disillusioned with a military government when it thinks the generals are trying to grasp for power and stifle democratic institutions. It was a blunder, for example, for General Musharraf to have sponsored a referendum on his leadership earlier this year, banned opposition groups from working against it and then declared that its passage gave him a mandate to rule for five more years.

Facing these sentiments, the general should not postpone the parliamentary elections scheduled for October. Nor should he take any steps to hamstring the opposition`s ability to contest them. Last month he proposed constitutional changes that would enable him to dismiss a new Parliament and prime minister and set up a shadow government in the form of a national security council that he could control, reducing the new civilian government to a puppet. These proposals should be reconsidered and promptly withdrawn.

The United States has an incalculable interest in maintaining friendship with Pakistan at this delicate moment. But Washington must encourage a return to civilian rule as the best guarantor of stability and popular support for the alliance with the United States in the fight against terrorism.

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