Shadowlines (Part I)

rsridhar: IM of the opinion that all people have a destiny to fullfill (even the mahatmas). I think Buddha`s realization was true for himself, but does not necessarily have to be true for all of us. Asceticism is some completely next level stuff meant for the strongest of the strong. It is a part of the 1 and should be respected as such (all people on the path will practise it to some degree).

As for symbols, they always have carried different meanings for different people. They were a means of teaching both the initiate and the common person. Both would leave with some understanding of the 1. Its obvious that after time, the original meaning is lost...

What Arjun,Haramiou,JAY,Soundmeister,Sadna,Not Mullah ,Layman,Nameless,& dozen other cheer leaders WONT EVER INFORM CHOWK ABOUT .Its a hard work keeping up with dozen posters.....

Dr.Reddys company lose its share value precipitously

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?artid=16794027

Novo suspends trials of Dr Reddy`s molecule



TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ TUESDAY, JULY 23, 2002 12:30:18 AM ]



NEW DELHI / MUMBAI: Shares of Dr Reddy`s Laboratories, India`s sixth-biggest drugmaker by market share, slumped to a near-one-year intra-day low on Monday after its Danish ally drugmaker Novo Nordisk suspended clinical trials on its promising new diabetes compound DRF 2725 or ragaglitazar.

Dr Reddy`s, which has been among the high-flying Indian pharma shares, fell 18% in early afternoon trade to Rs 830, a level not seen since July 24, ?01. The stock closed at Rs 874.20, down 13.8% while the BSE healthcare sector index fell 3.6% to 1,312.06, and the benchmark BSE sensex slid 2.4% to 3,153.34.

On Monday, Dr Reddy`s said that rodents ? including a mouse and a number of rats ? on whom initial animal trials of 2,725 were done, developed cancerous tumours in the bladder causing Novo to suspend human trials until a complete risk/benefit assessment of the compound was done. Though the tumours could be specific to rodents and may not occur in humans, Novo said it stopped human trials for patient safety reasons.

Some brokerages are believed to have already factored in the royalty to DRL from sales of this compound in various countries including the US from ?05 onwards, which partly explains the steep drop in the share price, but sentiment also had a role to play, analysts said. Even if clinical trials are initiated again, filing for approval with regulatory authorities is expected to be delayed by close to two years.













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re:Reply #: 176

DRUMZ,

The symbolism is for the common folks, people who are daily struggling as to how to live, how to conduct themselves and so on. Middle path that Buddha and many others have suggested were for these very people who were not sure what is right and what is wrong. Buddha shunned the extreme austerities and deprivations that many ascetics adopted in those days. He said, these were not necessary. One may lead a normal life and yet be happy.

You are right. A good man`s behavior may seem extreme to an average person. But then, is the good man in an inner turmoil. I am sure, he is at peace with what he is doing. It is the average guy (the one who thinks the good man is extreme)who is having the inner clash and is unhappy.

Symbols have lost meaning today. But it is interesting how many different ancient cultures depicted some basic ideas symbolically.

Sridhar

Zafar: ``I was just expressing a fond HOPE, ok? And now you’re cross...``

Im not cross, just puzzled as to why i have to keep repeating myself cuz what i say conflicts with someones experiences or preferences.

``There’s a lot to be said for short term memory loss ya know. Mathlab, how many recent memories are pleasant and worth keeping?``

Agree, very little worth keeping and even less should be kept.

``Now you’re fighting dirty :-) And you forgot ghee specifically, and Indian Cooking in general. Burp. Let’s not even get on to the need to be right, the need to be better, the need to be more intelligent, the need to be better looking…(is there an all purpose word for this one?)``

LOL, I dont even wanna take it there cuz thatll make everyone look like a hypocrite. All purpose word? Maybe the need for acceptance, or simply attacthment. Peace.

US wary of Pakistan intelligence services` links to al-Qa`ida

By Robert Fisk in Islamabad

21 July 2002

The FBI is becoming almost as distrustful of its Pakistani counterpart as the CIA is of the warlords across the border in Afghanistan.

During the trial of journalist Daniel Pearl`s murderers – which ended with the conviction of the British public schoolboy Omar Sheikh – one small but disturbing fact never made its way into the headlines: that one of the co-accused was a former Pakistani police officer. The final testimony of the trial – released only yesterday morning – must owe something to his evidence.

It revealed, for example, that Mr Pearl made two escape attempts from his captors and that it was this which prompted them to murder him. Three Yemenis were brought in to perform his throat-cutting. But all we know of the ex-cop is that – even at the time of his arrest – he was still working for the Pakistan Special Branch.

Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), the powerful state institution which helped arm Afghan fighters against the Soviets and then supported the Taliban, was supposedly reformed once the Pakistani President, General Pervez Musharraf, joined President George Bush`s ``war on terrorism``.

Few in Pakistan believe it. There are rumours, for example, that intelligence officers helped to hide three al-Qa`ida members after a gun battle in a village in Waziristan, in the border tribal territories on 25 June in which 10 soldiers were killed. US agents in Pakistan suspect that several of their raids on remote villages in Waziristan were betrayed to al-Qa`ida operatives in advance. Since then, both the FBI and the Pakistan army have preferred not to inform local police officers of their activities.

Although authorities in Islamabad insist that US forces cannot operate alone inside Pakistani territory, recent reports suggest the contrary. Last week, for example, three Pakistani tribesmen were apparently picked up by US troops from the border town of Angoor Adda and flown across the frontier to the US base at Birmal in Afghanistan. It also appears that American forces have been using their old Afghan device of handing out wads of cash in return for local tribal loyalty.

If Pakistan can deny America is waging an undercover war on its territory, it is far more difficult to conceal the involvement of a police Rangers inspector, Waseem Akhtar, in the conspiracy to murder General Musharraf during his visit to Karachi on 26 April. And there is evidence that the explosives to be used in the failed attack were subsequently employed in the suicide bombing of the US con- sulate in Karachi on 14 June.

Because of the past co-operation between the Taliban – and by extension al-Qa`ida and Pakistan`s intelligence services – many Pakistan Special Branch and Field Security Wing officers are working blind, forced to build up entirely new files on militants who remain well known to elements of the ISI. Only patient police work in Karachi, for instance, uncovered hitherto unknown connections between Islamist and secular groups, leading to a series of arrests.

All in all, the civil police and the Americans might learn more by talking to the ISI. But no one is sure for whom their individual members work.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=316895

samina:

“Its been good seing your posts on Chowk now and then...”

…:)…always a pleasure to read your posts too…

“Umer Murtaza,

Your artwork sounds amazing! Can you provide pictures of your finished work?”

…i second that…the whole wire-cum-pepper-cum-everything under the sun bit sounds intriguing to say the least…

fROM A SISTER FORUM POST ON INDIA FORUM

HA T ARE THESE OUR INDIANS UP TO? TRUELY VERY ILLETRATE!

Posted by GJM on July 20, 2002 at 04:12:25:

Indians begin worshipping dead British soldier as `god`

Hundreds of people in northern India have begun worshipping a British soldier who died 145 years ago.

They believe he has divine powers and has helped people get off court cases and solve their sexual problems.

Devotees are offering fruit, flowers, meat, cigarettes and liquor at the grave of Captain F Wale, at the palace garden ruins of Moosa Bagh in Lucknow.

Captain Wale of the 1st Sikh Cavalry was killed in action during the Mutiny of 1857.

Locals have even composed hymns and prayers to the soldier and taken to describing him variously as ``Captain Baba`` (Captain Sage), ``Gora Baba`` (White Sage) or ``Gora Bhagwan`` (White God).

The grave, normally deserted, began attracting visitors following rumours of the captain`s powers.

It was believed people involved in serious criminal cases were acquitted by the courts after prayers were offered at the grave, or `mazaar`.

Young men looking for solutions to their sexual problems and barren women hoping to have children are also among those who regularly visit the grave.

Sify.com reports one local man, Krishna Prasad, is reported to have offered beer at the grave in the hope Gora Baba would help him fulfil a wish to have sexual relations with a neighbour.

The self-appointed caretaker of the grave, who is known only by her first name, Sakina, said: ``Devotees took to the practice of offering alcohol and cigarettes at the grave because the captain was thought to be fond of drinking, smoking and sex.``

Follow Ups:

*

Reply DRUMZ # 160

“As for taking it for ``pleasure,`` u and zafar are free to think that as being true.”

I was just expressing a fond HOPE, ok? And now you’re cross...(No, DON`T listen to me. This is at least in part for a certain other person who is bound to read this post...)

“…I dont really see the point in taking it for pleasure because it hinders ya memory - it gets very annoying after a while. Its definately not something one should do before going out.”

There’s a lot to be said for short term memory loss ya know. Mathlab, how many recent memories are pleasant and worth keeping?

“…Maybe we should build on REAL crutches. Ima bet 90% of u are addicted to tea, 40% to coffee, 20% to various medicines, 15% to alcohol, 80% to family/friends...”

Now you’re fighting dirty :-) And you forgot ghee specifically, and Indian Cooking in general. Burp. Let’s not even get on to the need to be right, the need to be better, the need to be more intelligent, the need to be better looking…(is there an all purpose word for this one?)

CATCH J I M BEFORE YOU LOSE HIM ..SAYZ YOUR MOM

No More Big Man on Campus?

College Gender Gap Could Mean Women Lose Mating

Game

By Geraldine Sealey

[ABCNEWS.com]

July 18 ? Sure, it`s the 21st century and all, but many single, professional women of a certain age still sweat over the lethal mix of a dearth of educated, successful bachelors and the cruel march of Father Time.

Believe it or not, ladies, the situation appears to be getting bleaker.

Women now comprise 57 percent of all college graduates in the United States. Among Hispanics, the gender gap is even greater ? only 40 percent of college graduates are male. Among blacks, two women earn bachelor`s degrees for every man.

Some demographers and labor studies experts fear this trend portends ominously for the mating game. American men are becoming less literate, less ambitious, less responsible, and less employable than women, they say. This can only mean bad things, the argument goes, for high-achieving women who want husbands who, say, contribute to society, hold their own in conversation and pay their own way.

Andrew Sum, an economist with the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University, calls this effect the ``marriage squeeze.``

``The choices for younger women will be more constrained than they were 20 years ago,`` he said. ``This is a serious economic and cultural problem. Men are less mature today than they were 20 years ago. Not everyone will agree with me, but the evidence supports that.``

Women Mature Faster

Sum`s research shows that an average of 62 percent of women in Massachusetts` large central and inner cities graduate from high school and enroll in college, compared to 48 percent of men. His data also reflect the education gender gap`s impact on marriage, he said. An estimated 59 percent of men with only high school diplomas were married compared to 75 percent of men with Master`s degrees or better, Sum said.

Nationwide during the last two decades, women have increasingly earned greater numbers of associate`s, bachelor`s, and master`s degrees than men. There is no state in America where men can claim more bachelor`s degrees than women.

Explanations abound for why women are more likely to enroll in and graduate from college. Educators say that in general, women are more prepared as students, more mature, better writers and readers, and more ambitious.

``Women may feel they have to try harder,`` said Stephanie Coontz, a family researcher and co-chair of the Council on Contemporary Families.

Indeed, there has been much public debate recently about the plight of successful women looking for mates and families. Perhaps most notably, Sylvia Ann Hewlett raised a ruckus with her book Creating a Life about professional women`s often quixotic quest for children, which made 60 Minutes and the cover of Time magazine.

Must Women Go Slummin`?

The academic gender gap shows no sign of abating, which means women may have to start waiting even longer to marry, or they may have to consider ``marrying down.``

Traditionally, men have been more likely to marry women with less earning potential and professional stature, although that trend is shifting. Women have been more likely to pair up with partners who have at least as much academic achievement ? 80 percent of women with bachelor`s degrees marry men who also graduated from college.

Not all experts see trouble ahead, of course. Many see the trend as a reassuring development for women, and for men, eager to break out of traditional marriage roles.

Kathleen Gerson, a New York University sociologist studying work and family attitudes of the 18-to-30 crowd, pooh-poohs the notion that less educated men herald the apocalypse for heterosexual couples.

``When men outnumbered women [in college], it didn`t seem like a social crisis,`` she said.

If women are less dependent on men for financial support, couples can make more honest decisions about being together, says Coontz, who`s writing a book on the history of marriage.

``It`s not a sign of disaster, but a sign that people are able to develop more true free choice and are willing to do so,`` she said. ``This is a good example of the fact that marriage is more of a choice than it`s ever been.``

Put less delicately, the concept of the marriage squeeze is a lot of ``hooha`` about nothing, says Carl E. Van Horn, a professor of public policy and director of the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers University.

Resourceful Women More Attractive Mates

``It`s not like there are no men graduating from college,`` Van Horn said. ``It`s not a big enough change that it`s so noticeable.``

In fact, much research shows that women, just like men, are more likely to be married if they have greater educational attainment and more earning power, says Scott Coltrane, a senior scholar with the Center on Contemporary Families.

Economic equality also translates to more equality in marriage, Coltrane said. ``When women have more resources, couples tend to make decisions that end up sharing more,`` he said.

``I don`t see the institution of marriage being in any trouble. It`s a different vision of marriage. Marriage will be helped by equality of men and women in the workplace.``

Of course, even though women are getting more college and professional degrees and are improving their own earning potential, it remains to be seen whether they can bust through the corporate ``glass ceiling`` that still marginalizes them in executive suites.

If women are to translate their educational achievement into true earning power and professional stature, corporate America will also have to change, some experts say.

``[Women] still face inflexible workplace structures and job opportunities that are gender-biased and biased against parents,`` Gerson said.

Genie Out of the Bottle

Despite these arguments, Sum sticks to his theory that less educated men comprise a social, economic and marital drain. And, he said, if you ask young women, they`d back him up.

``Many women perceive this problem to be real,`` he said. ``It is not our imagination.``

The college gender gap damages young men even more, Sum said. Men not only lag behind female students but lack many of the directed mentoring opportunities designed to encourage professional development after college.

Surely, scholars may disagree on whether the economic deficiency of men is a social plague or a potential leveler of restrictive gender roles. But, Coltrane said: ``There`s no putting the genie back in the bottle. There`s no way to reverse this trend over the next few decades.``

rsridhar: Thats a tricky subject. What u said is agreeable as it pertains to the whole of humanity, however balance iz RELATIVE when it comes to individuals. For ex. Some people are good by nature. WHat they would do every day might be what a ``normal`` person considers extreme. The good natured person is not being extreme in this case; for her, the extreme could be some ascetic stuff or what have u.

This is a difficult concept to explain. Im sure ud agree that it is more `extreme` for a meat eater to become a vegan then for a vegetarian...

Roohi: Naw, i am definately not one of those treaky types (come on!). I will check out the link though. Peace.

DRUMZ

You sound like you might like this link ... all about the Hindu concepts in the Star Wars saga

http://www.thejediplanet.com/features/hindu2.shtml

May the force be with you ...

re:Reply #: 172

DRUMZ,

yes, indeed! It is all about balance. Buddha advised the middle path.If you make the pendulum swing to one extreme, what happens. It comes back and swings to the other extreme as well. This is also the law of karma. So, the sages have been saying: do everything in moderation, so the pendulum remains more or less in the middle. We of course know from personal experience as well as scientific data that too much of anything is bad. Too much food, too much sleep, too much alcohol etc. The old cultures knew this and depicted it symbolically.

Sridhar

Hi Samina,

I`ve still got to bag myself a scanner but I promise (eyes, legs, eyebrows, and fingers crossed) that as soon as I finish the collection, not only shall I give you the finished pics but being Hatam Tai`s aulaad, I`ll even send you the pics of the works in progress. Happy? I don`t know how it is with you but I always find it a joy to watch the evolution of the piece…

…But I am forgetful and every now and then, feel free to remind me. And yes, I do know your e-mail addy.

Best wishes

Umer M

roohi/rsridhar: This is getting interesting. The next question is of course how are the symbols of jewish mysticism and hindusim/buddhism related (even their MEANINGS are the same)... The balance of opposing forces (PEACE).

Youll find that this theme ran throughout the world. Hinduism probably has a ``cross`` symbol. The cross and the egyptian ankh repped balance of heaven and earth/man woman/life death. The egyptian cross showed the womans genitals as does one triangle of the star of david. The swastika is also related to the balance of the 4 elements, then there`s the yin/yan. Its ALL about balance.

DRUMZ

The indian shatkon (six pointed star) is the same as the star of david. It represents the union of purush and prakrati and is the basis of the more complicated Sri Yantra - the yantra of creation, which symbolizes OM and is usually associated with Laxmi.

The Sri Yantra has 9 intersecting triangles 4 pointing down and 5 pointing up. It is the most ancient and well known Hindu Yantra - the Buddhist Mandalas are based on the Hindu Yantras, both are a tool for meditation ...

re:Reply #: 161

DRUMZ

Your question to Sadna is interesting.

The hindu symbol resembling the ``star of David`` is nothing but ``shara-vana-bhava`` (literally meaning ``born in a reed forest``) or the symbol connected with god Kartikeya. Kartikeya is the son of Lord Shiva, one of the trinities.

Unlike the Aryan symbol of the crooked cross (made infamous by Hitler),this symbol resembling ``star of David`` is to be found mainly in south india and in Srilanka.

You need to remember that worship in ancient India was symbolic. Each symbol therefore has a meaning. One triangle in this symbol represents the Shiva aspect (fire), the other triangle the Shakti aspect (water). The two together represent Shiva-Shakti or Kartikeya (also called skanda or shara-vana-bhava).

This symbol alone is used for worship as a yantra in a temple in Kataragama in southern Srilanka. This place is considered sacred by hindus, buddhists and muslims alike for various reasons (one more reason for respecting all religions!).

In most of India, this god is depicted as riding a peacock and with a spear (called ``vel`` in Tamil)in his hand. The symbol of shara-vana-bhava is, however,interestingly missing in north india.

Hope i have confused you enough!

Url:http://www.skandagurunatha.org/pages/index3.htm.

http://kataragama.org/research/bechert.htm

Sridhar

Semi precious,

re:``...doing good, thanks…work, work and more work….writing?…um, what writing?…i don’t/can’t write… ``

Glad to hear that you are well and productive :)Its been good seing your posts on Chowk now and then...

Don`t you write? Hmmm, I might have gotten confused...

Umer Murtaza,

Your artwork sounds amazing! Can you provide pictures of your finished work?

layman/sadna: Im not sure what the hindu significance is but in judaism the star is made up of two triangles (one pointing down, the other up). They symbolize man/woman or fire/water as a balance. Based on what u describe the ritual has to do with washing (water) and dawn (fire), or maybe the symbol is unrelated to the star.

Tahmed: relax man, its not that serious. U just find it impossible to believe that a kid would smoke weed not for pleasure.

Drumz #163 Layman #164

The Indian pattern which is similar to the Star of David is probably the Sri Chakra, but the chakra is actually made up of nine traingles.It is supposed to embody the Shiva-Shakti nature.

DRUMZ #161
I go with what Layman says and I too donot know the religious significance. Many of my S. Indian friends had a daily practice of waking up at dawn, washing the front entrance of their home and drawing a rangoli with rice powder, a different pattern each day. When you grow up seeing it, you take it as a natural part of life and never think to ask why :)

Drumz #161 you write ``but have no problems painting western desi`s with the same brush? ``

Did I ever do that? I am shocked...shocked!! Please cut and paste what I wrote so I may suitably correct myself and refrain from such comments in future.

samina:

“Semi-sweet,

How are you? Whats going on? Hows the writing going?”

…doing good, thanks…work, work and more work….writing?…um, what writing?…i don’t/can’t write…

Drumz #161:

``Sadna: There is a symbol ive seen attached to hinduism which looks exectly like the star of david. U know the deal behind that?``

I am not sure of the religious significance, but it is a common `Rangoli` design - the rice-flour drawing on the ground outside the front door of Hindu houses (at least in the South). It is also drawn with turmeric/kumkum etc in the puja room...

DRUMZ #160,

u disappoint me

Sadna: There is a symbol ive seen attached to hinduism which looks exectly like the star of david. U know the deal behind that?

Tahmed: One more thing, U get upset when anyone links Islam with terrorism but have no problems painting western desi`s with the same brush? If i did it for pleasure i woulda said so. I get nuthing outta convincing internet people of my intentions, i will prolly never meet any of u. I dont do that or have girlfriends or whatever other stereotypes u wanna attatch to this generation. U gotta read whats written, not read INTO it. Peace.

Scout: U are a gorilla ke doom.

Tahmed: The BENEFIT of thinking merely about the present for a few hours (forcefully by ganja), is that it TEACHES the student that only the present exists. Teachers have long known that a common factor in stress and unclear thought is that people have desires for the future and apprehensions about the past. Thinking of these things does NOTHING to solve them - it is merely idle thought. Ganja teaches one to focus on the present, with the AIM that he can do so without the AID of an external element (a good student should be able to arrive at a natural high by himself).

As for taking it for ``pleasure,`` u and zafar are free to think that as being true. I can only tell u the reasons i take it, if u wanna believe something else its on u. I dont really see the point in taking it for pleasure because it hinders ya memory - it gets very annoying after a while. Its definately not something one should do before going out. U really gotta stop thinking in terms of good and evil.

PS: Maybe we should build on REAL crutches. Ima bet 90% of u are addicted to tea, 40% to coffee, 20% to various medicines, 15% to alcohol, 80% to family/friends...

Shatru: I never claimed to say anything new and i said several times that this was used by the ancients so i dont see the point of ur post.

Drumz #155 No, I havent tried ganja I admit and so will rely on what you tell me whic is: ``When one uses ganja, he has a very clear mind, the difference is that he is not thinking about the future nor the past, simply the present.`` Aha!! So, the mind may be clear, but it is LIMITED to the present. That doesnt seem like an improvement to me. I think you have to admit it: you take it for pleasure. I think you would be better off taking up skydiving or something, or even plain old roller-coaster riding. Plenty of thrills there too, with less chance of slow-frying your mind.

DRUMZ #155,

you`re full of a lot of $hit aren`t u?

get a life plz

Zafar: Come up with a decent argument with Tahmed and Ill shut up. So far ive seen nothing.

All the arguments against ganja here amount to me saying u shouldnt use the internet cuz pedophiles use it. Who cares if some abuse it? Thats not the point, thats a clouding of the point. Just cuz some kids abuse it doesnt mean i do - that very idea is illogical.

Sadna: The Sufi nasruddin was hilarious, grab one of his books.

Tahmed: Quick Q: Have u ever tried ganja? Perhaps thinking as a `desi dad` is preventing u from thinkin clearly? My argument is simply that the thing is neither good nor bad, its use makes it so. Im sure we`d agree that the number of people with clear minds is 1 per hundred, so why get hung up on ganja use?

When one uses ganja, he has a very clear mind, the difference is that he is not thinking about the future nor the past, simply the present. If it is taken when one is in a safe location (his room, among friends etc) there is almost no harm-it lasts a few hours. IM sure desi`s are socialized to think ganja is the work of the devil, but in reality, if it is done by a sound person, there is no problem.

If someone is high (and hasnt smoked too much or anything laced) they wont do strange things. Thats the difference between ganja and alcohol. Alcohol makes one lose a lotta control, much more then ganja.

Lastly, ganja CULTIVATES a clear mind through what it teaches the user (to focus on the present, to function in a different state of mind calmly etc etc). Peace.

Re: Rsaxena #95

FYI- Indian probe in February massacre of 59 Hindus takes bizarre twist (AFP)

http://in.news.yahoo.com/020717/6/1s2v8.html

Drumz #149 The article basically said that DWG (Driving While Ganjaized) is like drunk driving. Granted, if you take a bus you wont cause an accident (although you may still do odd things in public, I suppose). Personally, I think a clear mind is man`s greatest asset. And anything that interferes with this asset, whether it is ganja or heroin; or fanaticism; or mere incompetence (i.e. irrational or illogical thinking) reduces the value of this asset.

This may be a desi dad`s argument, but I`ll be damned if you can beat it.

DRUMZ #149
I think you misinterpreted my posts but glad you liked the jokes, I did too.

Here are a few more:

A Bedouin went to market and heard them speaking bad Arabic. ``Praise be to God`, he said, ``They commit solecisms and make profits. We commit no solecisms and make no profits!``

--
Another man claimed to be a prophet in the days of the Caliph al-Ma`mun. He asked him ``What is your miracle?``.
The man said ``Ask what you wish``.
The Caliph had in his hand a lock. ``Take this and open it``, he said.
``God preserve you``, the man replied. ``I did not say that I was a blacksmith``.
The Caliph laughed, called on him to repent and let him off.

--

A man said, ``I have a pain in my eyes and as a cure I use Quran verses and prayers``. Talhak said to him, ``But you should use a little eye-salve too.``

--

A tumbler scolded his son and said ``You do no work and you waste your life in idleness. How often must I tell you to practise somersaults and to learn how to dance on a rope and to make a dog jump through a hoop so that you can achieve something with your life. If you don`t listen to me, I swear by God I shall abandon you to the madrasa to learn their dead and useless science and to become a scholar so as to live in contempt and misery and adversity and never be able to earn a penny wherever you go.``

--

Shams-i-Muzaffar said one day to his disciples, ``One should learn when one is young. What one learns in youth one never forgets in age. It is now fifty years since I learned the first verse of the Quran and I can still remember it, though I never read it since.``

--
One day Abu Nuwas was seen with a glass of wine in his hand, a bunch of grapes on his right, and a dish of raisins on his left, and every time he drank from the glass he took a grape and a raisin. ``What does this mean?``, they asked him, and he replied ``This is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.``

--
They said to a Sufi ``Sell your cloak.``. He replied, ``If a fisherman sells his net, with what shall he fish?``

zafar al-talib #145

rishad wants to get in touch.

write to him rishad@mid-day.com

aakar

Tahmed: Im not sure i got the point of the article. Infact, ive never really heard any decent critique of ganja from a desi-except for various forms of the ``my mommy says its bad`` argument. There`s millions of things which can harm u if u abuse them. The article in ur site talks about lacing ganja, which i dont do. It talks about doing it while outside/driving (causing accidents), which i dont do.

Sadna: Theres a story about two monks who were travelling on a road which leads to a lake. They stopped near the lake and saw a woman struggling to cross. One monk carried the woman to the other side. They continued walking and an hour later, the other monk said ``u know we are not allowed to touch women, whyd u do it?`` The other replied ``I dropped her off an hour ago, why are u still carrying her.`` The point is ur carryin stuff from the last time we spoke. Leave it in the past, grudges take up to much energy. Secondly, u spoke about the left brain. Learn to follow a convo as it goes from the left brain to the right. This here WAS/IZ a joke-not serious. I didnt write a personal critique. I do not even know u. Ur taking a simple joke and analyzing it with the left brain and getting angry over nothing. If u think this marriage stuff was serious then we`re on completely different wavelengths. Relax (and the jokez were nice).

Zafar: The ganja thing is true, if it wasnt i would do it more often and outside etc... The hijabi remark is very true, they think sunlight is cool. Peace.

Drumz #153 While ganja (a concentrated form of marijuana, as I understand) may well lie beyond the field of right and wrong as you and brother Rumi say, it certainly lies in the middle of the field of bad health. Read, in the name of thy Lord, the following URL and mend thine evil ways, O reckless youth!!

http://www.health.org/reality/

You are better off examining female anatomy with the help of the Playboy Textbook as Zafar suggests. Wont land you in an ER unless you get carried away with your fantasies and sexually assault the vacuum cleaner.

Ana, Roohi

Thanks! I hope your father is well too. That must have been very difficult. God it was so strange... my daadi had been sewing little purses for my lil bro`s wedding for a couple of months (he hasn`t made plans yet, but I guess my daadi was sending him a major hint...how do you like that? :)) and looked a bit tired, even tho she had been to a doc a month before...after the bypass, and a more ardous, complicated operation I cannot imagine, she started to dream about sewing these little purses again-I asked her if she saw the extended metaphor; her heart being sewn like a small purse...



I`ve been writing the author tips that you and anNy have been leaving on various boards. Also, Roohi, thanks! I`m going to look up In An Antique Land...it sounds very exciting-why don`t you write a review of it? You def. seem qualified! Hope to chat with you soon...

Semi-sweet,

How are you? Whats going on? Hows the writing going?

DRUMZ #141
The thing is that I am not willing to write a matching personal critique of the person who does so about me, so I feel these personal exchanges are asymmetrical and unfair and want out. Can`t you accept that and cheer up? I haven`t stopped you from ek-tarfa bitching about me, have I?

As peace offering. My brother told me about two volumes on Islamic writings. ``Islam From the Prophet Muhammad to the Capture of Constantinople``, edited and translated by Bernard Lewis. Oxford University Press. (available on B&N and Amazon)

There is a chapter on Humor which contains jokes and anecdotes from the ninth century, from a thirteenth century Persian joke book and from a fourteenth century Arabic joke book.

Here are a few:

In the month of Ramadan, someone said to a dealer, ``In this month there is no business``. He answered ``God give long life to the Jews and Christians``

--

Some people came to al-Rustumi`s house on some business and the time came for the midday prayer. They asked him. ``Which is the direction of Mecca in this house of yours?``. He replied ``I only moved in a month ago``.

--
In the time of the Caliph Wathiq a woman laid claim to prophethood.

The Caliph asked her `` Was Muhammad a Prophet?`` ``Certainly`` she replied.

``Then`` said the Caliph, ``since Muhammad said `There will be no Prophet after me` your claim is false``.

The woman replied, ``He said, `There will be no Prophet after me`. He did not say, `There will be no Prophetess after me.```

--

Someone said to Ash`ab[a famous humorist of the early eighth century] ``If you were to relate traditions[hadith] and stop telling jokes, you would be doing a noble thing``

``By God``, answered Ash`ab. ``I have heard traditions and related them``.

``Then tell us`` said the man.

``I heard from Nafi```, said Ash`ab, ``on the authority of Ibn `Umar, that the Prophet of God, may God bless and save him, said `There are two qualities, such that whoever has them is among God`s elect.```

``That is a fine tradition`` said the man. ``What are these two qualities?``

``Nafi` forgot the one and I have forgotten the other`` said Ash`ab.

Tahmed: ``Really, really bad advice. Same results can be achieved by serenely reflection upon things.``

Rumi said ``meet me at the field beyond right and wrong.`` There is real difference between using something and misusing it. People cant grasp that idea because the second they think of ganja, they think of all the bad it does. Ganja is not right or wrong, its use is what determines such.

Ganja was/is used by almost all orders which aim to cause internal evolution simply because it allows one to do something EASIER then meditation alone. Moreover, it allows one to function at a different level, increasing mind control, focusing on the present etc. If ur sharp, ull be able to bring the high naturally, but that takes practise.

Ganja is not a need. U dont get urges to smoke it-mind control kills that. It is an external element which may help or hinder one in his progression. Usually the people who say u can get at it through meditation have either not tried weed or meditation (just my experience). Peace.

Drumz #141 ``Acid victims, rape victims and the like have a right to be upset and sensitive, but not someone who`s caught feelings on an internet message board.``

Good advice.

you continue ``And yes ganja also teaches people how to remain calm and to focus on the present (not carry grudges) and to not center themselves around the opinions of others...``

Really, really bad advice. Same results can be achieved by serenely reflection upon things (if you wish, you can adopt a Buddha pose while serenely reflecting), thus becoming a truly liberated man - free of the need for ganja to be calm and grudge-free and able to tell right from wrong.

Samina: Life is too short to keep biting ones tongue, nuthing offensive was said intentionally, if it was taken as such then people need to grow thicker skin. Acid victims, rape victims and the like have a right to be upset and sensitive, but not someone who`s caught feelings on an internet message board. And yes ganja also teaches people how to remain calm and to focus on the present (not carry grudges) and to not center themselves around the opinions of others...

As for the poetry, I agree. Im not saying my views are for everyone. That post was relative to me (MY opinion). Im not a poetry buff, if u are thats cool, i just gave some reasons why i dont like it. However, i do agree that it is a very valuable artform etc etc...

aicha 130,

Look at today (sunday) dawn, front page on the internet. It has two items about india, isreal is there, all relate to what kafirs are doing. There is no news about pakistan, some positive news, about some factory being opened, something about education, something about economic plans. This we are talking about pakistans english language paper tergeting the educated, may be even the pakis abroad.

Now tell me aicha why this precoccupations with kafirs. If you can link this to some social value, some aspect of the education, I am most eager to hear.

Please leave out zia, and other kafirs. As a refernce look at times of india worlds largest circulation english news paper. Assuming that the people of pakistan had more or less similar valuses fifty years ago, how did this transition take place. There has to be something that pakistanis have done in the last few years has to account for this. I am ready to make a concession, leave the darwenian selection of TNT believers that made up pakistan.

regards

Jay

saminashah #137
No, no, and again no. You have absolutely nothing to apologize to me for, please!

After a mostly left-brain education(which I enjoyed ), some right-brain stuff just makes my head hurt :). But the poem/interview is beautiful in its simplicity, thanks for posting it! I did a google just now and found what you poetry buffs know already, ofcourse, that Ms? Tamiki was witness to the horrors at Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

Sadna: ``Er why gothic? Evidently, I am not a poem hence its OK to attempt a sherlock on me. At least I fought fair.``

LOL, Gothic cuz ur too serious. ``Fighting fair``?? This is hardly a fight, it is a build on an internet message board. U need to LIGHTEN UP (some weed), relax and calm down, stop being aggrivated at the slightest of things.

Scout: Thanks but i dont celebrate them. Where have u been anyways?

Sadna, Zafar and Drumz,

Yipes....major apologies...didn`t know that this wasn`t fun for you guys-as you know, I can amuse myself for days pondering this stuff. So yes, everyone is let out of this q-and-a, even tho apparently everyone left a l-o-n-g time ago...(take a deep breath, Samina).

Well Zafar, guess its back to the Pinkyfeld to me....

Sadna

Your interpret. was interesting. If you are interested in discussing the poem, let me know....def. don`t want to coerce you.... My apologies for any untowardness. Yes, I most certainly will see you soon! :)

Drumz

Arre, mah apka saath kya kar oonghi? My apologies for misunderstanding your spirit/peyote-like application of the boodha. The hijabi hi times thing I gots to see to believe....can you pass on some of the conversation from that?

Poetry: Dude, its just not that simple. Do I diss your spiritual ruminations? Do I say its relevant only to you? To me, poetry is the presence, and the non presence of God. Its definitely the glimpse into the invisible and sometimes, the visible world....vasai, lets agree to disagree and leave it there.

aicha

I love you. Yes, the answer is blue is the color of greed...

``Ali has just copped a job at the airport so he is vewy bizzy``

yowowowowowoow!!!

DRUMZ #133
Er why gothic? Evidently, I am not a poem hence its OK to attempt a sherlock on me. At least I fought fair.

Organisers: This being the same-old same-old bash-youknowwho fest, I am definitely excused. See you around!

DRUMZ,

happy birthday :)

Samina/zafar: Ali has just copped a job at the airport so he is vewy bizzy. BTW, I want other people to play too (aicha, anny and even scout).

Sadna is beginning to frighten me-personality wise. If there was a gothic army, sadna would be the general. Shes not exactly mrs fun-fun-sunshine ifyaknowwhatimsayin...

About the poem, were u asking what it MEANT or how often the poet changes her bra ( *cough * Sadna that sherlock homes detective thing is a bit much). As far as the meaning goes, it is relevant only to the poet and the reader at the time it was said. To me it means nuthin, which is why i dont bother with the type of poetry which causes one to examine ANOTHER`S mindset (if it doesnt lead to ones OWN introspection it is mere admiration).

As for the ganja, i only smoke maybe 7 times a year and started when i was 21. I only do it in my room and for meditative reasons (it lets me function in a different mindset, reminds me that there is only the present moment and a bunch of other stuff i wont get into). U may be surprised but iv even gotten hijabi sisters drooling over this ganja routine. As for women who know what they want, i know a lotta them, they are single and annoying. Im looking for someone near perfect, well disciplined, ready to kill, not materialistic, never a follower, doesnt argue over stupid sh1t and will absoltely fukk up any imam (pardon the frizzench). And i dont indulge in junk food, exercise daily and will knock that azz out (as PM will find out-Ima bloody him up will he adds an `S` to his name).

Zafar: I have no idea what the nothingness etc is about. Ur carrying things from a year ago, it is because u are weird. The greediest colour MAY be black (black holes/hoes), BUT black is the absense of colour. I will go with my man Steven Biko who said ``Why do u call urselves white, when u really are PINK. He was subsequently killed by the PINK man, thus the answer is PINK. Peace.

zafar al-talib

rishad `retard` patel asks if you`re ``that`` zafar al-talib.

aakar patel

Zafar,

Oooo, I loved that question-very imaginative, which is why I tossed it to you...still waiting for Drumz Sahib to submit his answer....who will pose the next question, btw?

Sadna,

Re: the answer to the question ``can you be excused, because supposedly Drumz is of a differing age`` is negative. This is about the debate of two highly rigorous (or rigorously high) minds. Besides, Drumz wants to be paid in buddha, and that is just not attractive for women who know what they want, and I will not even go into a possible scenario of what that might look like (Drumz love, I`m sorry, but I must be honest, bro) 10 years down the road...10 years of munchies does not a 6 pack set of abs make...besides, you don`t believe in that jehaz nonsense....but I digress...make of this what you two will, its not my twinkie..(huh?)

Jay

... the values learned in mothers lap cannot change. Now say k for kafir.

wait a min - looks like you learnt that on your mothers lap - going by the # of times you say it. Talk about insecurity!!!

Zafar - What is the GREEDIEST colour, and why?

BLUE

ok - i cant help this - but it is BLUE isnt it???

saminashah #120, Zafar
You are harsh taskmasters.

Re, question 1. Ms. Hara Tamiki. You reely want this?

Ms Tamiki is depressed. She is either battle-weary or naturally passive, for example her attitude toward war, gods and bureacrats. The interviewer could have clarified the reasons for this by asking her about men, motherhood and revolutions :).

She evidently grew up in a traditional non-industrialized society because she doesnot seem to have had issues with her mother :), take her unhesitating references to sisters and goddesses and her determination to persevere, tears being her sisters and love helping her endure.

Overall the interview has a hopeful note. Though there is no shorter way home, at least she is headed there. This means she once lived a secure existence presided over by a loving father. Security now exists in her dreams only, beset as she is by the fragility of humankind and madness.

Banaa di na bechaari ki khicchDi :). If Hara Tamiki is a man, same thing.

Question 2 : The greediest color is black.


s : ma`am, sir may I now be excused ?
s&Z : And why? Is it the restroom? your cellphone?
s : Neither. Its just that DRUMZ and I weren`t born in the same DECADE.
s&Z : Good point.
:)

Reply Saminashah, Sadna, Drumz # 120

“…The next question will come from (are you really surprised?) my partner in crime, Zafar. Zafar, WAKE UP! YOUR TURN!”

I seem to recall that Drumz Mian still owes me an answer to a question regarding being, nothingness and the insights of a certain Mr K Yadav.

But never mind, never mind.

OK, my question is:

What is the GREEDIEST colour, and why?

(Drumz, you will lose points if you say white, too predictable.)

Of course, this is after you answer OFFICIAL QUESTION NUMBER ONE.

Ciao. Saminashah is too brill, no?

YLH 113,

Here is a typical educated pakistani, says he cares about pakistani women than the muslims of india. Pathetic two faced words from an allegedly educated pakistani who wrote articles on chowk about sher sha suri, and tilak and gokhele.

Try to understand the meaning of the word ``integrity``. I know it is too late, the values learned in mothers lap cannot change. Now say k for kafir.

MT #124 You ask ``Is it possible to define half and full castes within the framework of Islam .``

(Sigh!) That bit about MT castes vs. Full castes was something called a joke. There is no such thing as a half caste vs. full caste. First time I read this is when I wrote it. Second time I read it when I saw your post. (Sigh!)

you write ``Please let me know for each of the following pairs of castes which is considered higher.``

Dear Sir, I beg to advise you that a Baluch is superior to a Panjabi (if you ask a chauvinistic Baluch) and a Panjabi is superior to a Baluch (if you ask a chauvinistic Panjabi). Same for others. Ask a hypocrite like me (as I am assured by Kafir Khan and some other folks on chowk I must be when I say so) and I will say no difference. Meme Chose. All God`s chillun same same. Furthermore, if you got the money in your pocket, many people - Panjabi, Baluch, whatnot - would consider you most superior fella of all. Therefore your questions is sort of, y`know, kind of MT.

Regards.

Reply #: 123

tahmed321

MT #116 you ask ``Would any chowkie from Pakistan care to explain caste in Pakistan ?``

There are two castes in Pakistan. These are (a) the MT caste and (b) the non-MT (aka the ``FULL``) caste.

Pardon me . It would be a mistake if I did not point out that Pak zar zamin was created precisely because Musalmans could not stand the castes and religion of Hindus. Does the rancour also extend to Indian ethnic groups that are destitute such as Gujar, Meghwal etc.

Is it possible to define half and full castes within the framework of Islam .

Please let me know for each of the following pairs of castes which is considered higher.

Arains vs Jatts

Jatts vs. Rajpoots

Pastun vs. Baloch

Barlas vs. Chughtai

Mirza vs. Mir

Panhwar vs. Jatoi

Afghan vs. settled Pathan

Marwat vs. Khattar

Bhutto vs. Butt

Khar vs. Wyne

Thanks

MT #116 you ask ``Would any chowkie from Pakistan care to explain caste in Pakistan ?``

There are two castes in Pakistan. These are (a) the MT caste and (b) the non-MT (aka the ``FULL``) caste.

The MT caste asks MT questions, i.e. questions that are driven not be a sincere interest in learning but by a sincere interest in putting down other nationalities, communities etc, and passes MT comments. The Full Caste does not ask MT questions or engage in any other such MT rhetoric.

Hope this helps.

ylh #113 you write ``... I`d rather save Pakistani Women from getting gang raped than worry about Indian Muslims...``

Well said. I am glad there are people in Pakistan who are speaking out in newspapers and other places against the appalling jirga-sanctioned gang rape (where some of the ``judges`` themselves then proceeded to administer the punishment) and the terrible stone-killing of this poor man because some damned imam ordered it.

These terrible deeds are a result of the evil that has been created in Pakistan through shameless abuse of the name of Islam by Zia who introduced the hadood and blasphemy laws. These evil laws were imposed on Pakistan by a military dictator, and these should be revoked by a military dictator as well. If this is not done, future generations of Pakistanis will look upon these times as the ``dark ages`` in Pakistan, when evil men ruled and raped the country, literally and figuratively.

Drumz #114 to shankar ``Shankar: Whats the dowry on her? (And i want the answer in canadian joints).``

I am not sure if the younger shankar is aware of these plans that father and prospective bridegroom are making. I assume the dowry would, if you asked her, be not in the form of ``canadian joints`` but in the form of a good, solid ``desi chhittar``.

Sadna, Drumz

I see....okay, we`ll make the last two questions a test run...in the meantime, I am asking all Chowkies to start devising a question for these two to see where they diverge and agree.

Rules are:

1. No questions that are obscene or meant to insult Sadna. I`d apply that rule to Drumz, but he seems to like those two qualities. :) Of course Drumz knows that he should be as respectful of Sadna as she has been of him. (aHEM!)

2. One question at a time.

3. Both participants get 1-2 days to reply. (Chowk posting delays notwithstanding)

4. NO ONE answers, supplies hints, mocks any of the answers, regardless of how much you know...

What do you all say? Each questioner picks the subsequent questioner. The next question will come from (are you really surprised?) my partner in crime, Zafar. Zafar, WAKE UP! YOUR TURN!

Theek hain? Acha, hum shuroo karein ghay:

OFFICIAL QUESTION NUMBER ONE:

Read the poem Interview with Hara Tamiki (1950) by Anne Carson. Write a 1-3 paragraph response explicating the meaning of the poem. You amy address the poem as a whole, or you may focus on a single theme.

Interview with Hara Tamiki (1950)

I: Death

HT: Death made me grow up.

I: Love.

HT: Love made me endure.

I: Madness.

HT: Madness made me suffer.

I: Passion.

HT: Passion bewildered me.

I: Balance.

HT: Balance is my goddess.

I: Dreams.

HT: Dreams are everything now.

I: Gods.

HT: Gods cause me to be silent.

I: Bureaucrats.

HT: Bureaucrats make me melancholy.

I: Tears.

HT: Tears are my sisters.

I: Laughter.

HT: I wish I had a splendid laugh.

I: War.

HT: Ah war.

I: Humankind.

HT: Humankind is glass.

I: Why not take the shorter way home.

HT: There was no shorter way home.

Thats it, baybees! Go to work!

Hello Hello Testing 1 2 3.

YLH: ``Forget Gujurat... Our concern should be Meerowallah, Jaranwallah, and numerous panchiyats we have allowed to operate in our country... I`d rather save Pakistani Women from getting gang raped than worry about Indian Muslims...``

Ud actually start making sense if u thought outside of little red lines on a map. This dilineation between ``us`` and ``them`` becomes more then laffable if its uttered by an adult. How breathtakingly brain damaged does someone have to be to say that he`d rather save someone born in his country? And u have the audacity to mention gujrat???

U would be digging ur own grave if u made a reply, juss lemme speak and stay silent.

saminashah #104
Can I audit this one ?
1. Got to remember what I dream before Freud can get at them,alas. 2. The most edible ones? I`ve never eaten fish and DRUMZ is not likely to taste too good either..

Would any chowkie from Pakistan care to explain caste in Pakistan ?

By the way it seems like castes / tribes such as Gujjar / Meghwal with Indian origin are treated as lower castes by tribes/castes of non-Indian origin such as Baloch / Pashtun.

In a way this makes it easier for Indians to understand why the creation of Pakistan was important to Indians - imagine being a Hindu in these parts , when Muslim Pakistanis are treated in this manner.

Sadna: ``I asked, what have I said now and didnot get an answer. scout has my vote too.``

Am i the only one who still doesnt understand that post? Looks like the kid`s got u talking some serious gibberish. For people keeping track at home, forgive her, she was prolly blushing, weak in the knees etc...

Shankar: Whats the dowry on her? (And i want the answer in canadian joints).

samina: 1. Apparently i wanna get back in where i came from, get it? Dream analysis is interesting still. 2. ``Gettin off an Island for dummies,`` ``The autobiography of scout`` (have ta roll up the joints somehow). Actually that would be something to experience, id bring no books.

Obsession with the past is our nation`s excess baggage (or should I say garbage).. be it the obsession with the 7th century ... or obsession with the jamias of India (or for that matter nostalgia for hisab-teaching pandits of India). Mian rehan ansari... a word of advice: Instead of worrying about the Indian Muslims, gujurat, healing the `wounds of partition`, and teaching stupid courses on Indian cinema in garbage institutions like New School.. how about you did something more productive.. like paying attention to the problems of Pakistan right now?

We tend to over-intellectualize everything... I mean.. give me a break... I was born in Lahore Pakistan.. I really don`t care about the Indian Muslims, or the saffron brigade`s excesses... I couldn`t less about the philosophical meaning behind Madhuri`s thumka ... or any art movies for that matter... I really don`t care for making people to people contacts with the everyday Indians... I wish them a happy life... but I don`t wish to obsess about them... I have no desire to take trains from Bombay to Dehli, or date women who look like Waheeda Rehman... aisa farigh waqt kisi kay pass nahin hai... Forget Gujurat... Our concern should be Meerowallah, Jaranwallah, and numerous panchiyats we have allowed to operate in our country... I`d rather save Pakistani Women from getting gang raped than worry about Indian Muslims...

For a developing (Political and otherwise) nation, gifted writers, philosophers etc should be encouraged to lead the nation towards a cohesive manifest destiny of a Democratic progressive egalitarian and just society ... we need men and women like Tagore, Syed Ahmed Khan, Namik, Gokalp, Iqbal, Faiz, Halide Edib, etc... Instead we have people like Mr.Ansari.. who are reminiscent of the men like Ghalib, Dagh etc.. Gifted no doubt, intellectual without question, but productive NO!!

NOTE:

Like the famous saying goes.. `I dislike what you say, but I will defend the your right to say it`... I support Mr.Ansari`s right to utter as much garbage as he pleases...

NOT FROM DAWN,

We all believe that pak army is a unified entity and the following is a lie by the indians. from toi of today

Pak armyman held for bid to kill Musharraf



AP [ TUESDAY, JULY 09, 2002 1:34:32 PM ]



KARACHI: Police on Tuesday charged a military man with attempting to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.

Inspector Wasim Akhtar, of the paramilitary Rangers, was to appear in court later on Tuesday on charges of attempted murder in connection with an April 26 attempt to kill Musharraf, Karachi police official Azad Khan said.

Akhtar had been assigned to provide security to the President who was in the southern port city of Karachi to campaign for a `yes` vote on his referendum to extend his term as Pakistan`s president.

PAKISTANI IDENTITY

``What should I do now? My father`s name in my NIC, domicile certificate, Matric and Inter certificates and B.A. degree, is different from the one entered in the LL.B. degree. Will my precious three years of studying law would go waste just because an error has crept into my record with the Karachi University, which they refuse to correct despite the proofs?`` FROM DAWN OF TODAY.

/////////////

/////////// Here is a pakistani complaining that his fathers name in all these certificates are wrong. I do not know of any country that includes fathers name in degree certificates.

This is the crux of the pak values and to some extent explains why they are so obscessed with gaznavi, ghouri heritage. Even the higly educated YLH claims that he has proof that he is a descendant of the ``man`` himself. After all of the education, a pakistani still has to talk about his heritage. There is no individuality among the pakistanis, all parroting what the mullah says, of course with minor changes like kashmir becomes a human rights issue instead of jihadic issue.

Ever since Farzanas night marish article seem to have hit raw nerve in all the spinstress & bachelors for the need of Company & investment in producing few kids ,if not dozen,at least .Drumz,Fawd,Sadna ,Scout ,Saminashah (i know she is married)Shankar (for his sister Scout )Ylh ( being implored ) ....

the place is buzzing like Shaadi .com or Indian Express matrimonial which, Unkal Jay ,drools while reading 800 rishta from Pakistani girls alone !!!

Aicha ,Ana,SEmi ,Lajwanti(why r u jelous of me )Lucy ,Samina shah,Shirin,ROOHI..haldi lagao ,So many marriage songs ,cant decide which one to chooser :-))dhol baje dhol baje .......Mehdi lao ,

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Shammi #86,

You seemed to have missed the point entirely.

Nobody is justifying the riots but just imagine a minority community doing exactly what some members of the minority community in India did in a Muslim dominated country.

Think about that before equating India with Saudi Arabia and other fundamentalistic Islamic countries.

jay #97 You skipped your electric shock treatment again I see.

shammi #86:

``You said, ` It was the sympathy factor for IG and good governance by Janata govt at the state that were the factors`. This is a subjective assessment, and there is no way of proving one way or the other. I am willing to accept your rationale, while not entirely discarding mine.``

You are welcome to hold your views. I would like to exapnd a bit on what I said earlier. By late 1984, the Congress was in pretty bad shape. Indira Gandhi`s machinations against the ruling Telugu Desam in Andhra Pradesh (remember how Nadendla Bhaskara Rao ousted the chief minister N T Rama Rao when NTR was in the US?) ensured that it would have lost in AP. It was in bad shape in Karnataka, where the Janata Party had been elected recently and was a small player in TN which was then ruled by MGR`s AIADMK. Effectively the Congress was shut out of South India. IG had lost Punjab and her machinations against the National Conference in J&K (remember how IG put Farooq`s own brother-in-law G M Shah on the throne?) had pissed off the people in that state. One could do a state-by-state analysis, but the conclusion would be that the Congress was in pretty bad shape in late 1984, despite the opposition not being united.

But when IG got assassinated in Oct `84, there was a massive sympathy wave that helped the Congress under a neophyte Rajiv win over 400 seats out of 545 in Nov/Dec (I`m not sure which month it was) `84 elections. In fact, the Congress won more seats in `84 than it had ever done before, not even under freedom-fighter hero Nehru. This was solely due to the sympathy wave.

We Indians have always been emotional and feudal, esp outside the cities. Which is why a Jyotiraditya Scindia can slip into his father Madhavarao Scindia`s shoes after the latter died in an accident, similarly Speaker Balayogi`s wife (an unknown) can win a Parliamentary seat from his constituency after he died in a copter crash... do not discount the sympathy wave factor.

nasah,

{{Forgive me for asking -- did you ask HER -- if SHE is?? -- apparently not.}}

O Yes I did! You know what she tells me?!

Her heart is broken after Imran Khan got married to some ? Aunt Jemima. So now she wants to join a convent & become a nun.

Maybe Imran Khan wants to take bibi #2 huh?

If not, maybe ylh, even if he is a bakra, so what? she will ``train`` him. Trust me, loudmouths like him are the easiest to train :)

...but..lately..there is a wee bit of hope..she is sending out some feelers to Drumz..who knows..in a few months she may actually smoke a joint!! GAWD!! thats too frightful to even imagine!

Sadna and Drumz,

Before you start even thinking about joking around about this, we, the Chowkies, have to come up with a series of annoying yet oh-so-pertinent questions that both of you must answer, WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM ANYONE ELSE!

Sample question 1: Using Freud`s theories concerning the dreamstate, how would explain the kind of dreams you have? What do your dream narratives reveal about you?

Sample question 2: If you were stuck on a desert island, what 5 books would you bring and why?

etc.

Chowkies, I propose a question a week for Sadna and Drumz. Why? Why the heck not?

:)

shammi #97
``I find any investment of time, energy and resources on what bedevils other countries where different groups are suppressed to be utterly frivolous``

And also a frivolous waste to time to tell me whats a frivolous waste of time..? My comments donot preclude anyone else`s valuable investments.

Besides, the situation in many countries today represents the end result of Hindutva-like politics and Pakistan is one of them. I am sure this suits the inhabitants of these countries just fine including Pakistan and they have my best wishes.

But the sooner we Indians stop being politically correct about it ourselves, the firmer ground we are on while combating Hindutva-type thinking in India. It makes no sense to provide alibis to those practising one set of inconsistencies/blatant lies(that Hindutva is better than `pseudo-secularism`) by ourselves practising another set of inconsistencies/blatant lies(the pseudo-secular shush now).

btw, Omar Abdullah seems to think so too. He has told the RSS not to toe the Pakistani line of two nation theory by asking for the division of J&K.


DRUMZ#100
I asked, what have I said now and didnot get an answer. scout has my vote too.

shankar #92
Imran is in his 50s surely, and needs all the fans he can find..

re: shammi

{Recent police and forensic reports suggest that the fire in Godhara was started INSIDE the train, and not from the outside,}

..so let me get this straight...those people in the train, including the women and children, decided to commit mass suicide and burn themselves?..and there`s no way in hell way for someone to get inside the train, set a fire, and leap out...yep, it`s all clear to me now...

````y`see I have this sis who I`m desparate to get married off...````(Shanker)

``I AM desparate````..??

Forgive me for asking -- did you ask HER -- if SHE is?? -- apparently not.

Living in the US coal mines -- and not a speck of dust on the snow white Indian kurta -- that is a miracle -- you are a lucky man Shanker Saheb.

This is where -- Ghalib as a US immigrant -- would have said:

US meiN hooN US ka talabgaar naheeN hooN

bazzaar se guzra hooN kharidaar naheeN hooN

:-)

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Sadna: How so?

Americans have done it again, they would rather order a dictator around than an elected one.

Pakistan polls to be postponed to 2003?

Muhammad Najeeb (IANS)

Islamabad, July 07