Shadowlines (Part I)

Muslims have the divine right to be violent?!? Audio-video-radio, methinks your bhang has been poisoned, or perhaps your mind was poisoned before and the bhang has just enhanced the poison?

Please, spare us and do not enlighten us any further. I will not deign to be like the other protesters and apologists who point out the imperfections of the Hindus. Enough blood has been spilled throughout the 5000 plus years of our civilization, let`s not continue to spill it on this board, theek hai?

Nobody asked you whether you felt bad about Ehsan Jafri`s head being decapitated and paraded around the city. Your response indicates that you didn`t. You throw history in our faces to remind us that what the Hindus suffered was taken for granted, that no pain was felt, nothing. And you know that for certain? And therefore, what, are we to take Jafri`s life, and those who died in Gujarat, and those who died in the train, are we to take their lives for granted as well? Are we to continue this horrible thing of taking lives for granted, no matter who we are, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian, Indian, Pakistani, humans, for crying out loud?

Clearly those of you who believe that ALL Muslims, be they in India, or Pakistan are evil, murdering jihadis, and don`t deserve much of anything, seem to be more interested in pursuing hate and intolerance than anything else. Likewise, those of you Pakistanis, who believe that ALL Indians, or should I focus on Hindus, are right-wing, fanatical, murderous Hindutvas don`t seem to be interested in pursuing anything positive either. Perhaps some of you spout out your venom to prove to either side that they are not living in reality, but all you end up showing us is the reality of your venom.

Just the other day, my mother shared with me things she had never shared with me before about what it was like growing up in a time when people were killing each other out of rage and fear, and evil. All my life I had thought that my mother had lived this sheltered life, free from the horrible events that were going on around her, because whenever I asked her about Partition, she never shared these things. And now we see this continuing cycle of violence, what has been happening in Kashmir, what has happened in Gujarat, what continues to happen to women in both India and Pakistan, the fact that both sides so carelessly and casually talk of war. No one is left untouched by violence, not in the days of Nadir Shah, not in the days in which our parents saw the world around them break apart, and most definitely not now. But if we want to devalue human life by saying they did it to our forefathers, and they continue to do it to our Kashmir, so they deserve what they get, well, is it any wonder that peace looms so distant in the horizon for us? Is it any wonder that people like Rehan who continue to write about connections, and the desire to make connections get dissed? Audio-Video-Radio, you and people like you can try to turn Chowk into a virtual verbal battleground filled with hate, or no emotion at all, all you want, noone can stop you. The staff here have declared in so many words that in addition to us being free to go to our temples, our mosques, our churches (Jinnah`s words, not theirs), we are also free to voice our likes, our loves, our hates and our indifferences. There will continue to be those who challenge the cycle of violence and bigotry, and those of you who defend it.

There are some writings about the Holocaust which in acknowledging the Germans as being the masterminds, the main perpetrators of such unspeakable acts of violence and murder, also blur the lines between perpetrator and victim in some cases, making for shades of gray. I say this, not for comparison`s sake, but to point out that our civilization is not devoid of such blurry lines in our tumultuous history, as much as some of you want to point out that it is. So why don`t we descend from our high horses, or get out of our glass houses, or work on removing these cobwebs of hate and find ways to end this cycle of violence we seem to have trapped ourselves in. Or we can remain prisoners of history, bent on disproving the adage, `those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it`, for apparently, we all remember our distorted or `real` versions of history, and are bent on repeating it.

Women vow to stop spread of Gujarat pogrom

By Bharat Dogra

TILONIA, India - If the recent pogrom against Muslims in India`s western state of Gujarat does not spill into adjoining Rajasthan, it will be in large measure due to the initiative taken at a colorful but determined women`s jamboree in this village last week.

More than a thousand women from across northern India gathered in this remote village in Rajasthan`s Ajmer district - famed as the final resting place of Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti, a Sufi saint who died in 1235 and is venerated by Hindus and Muslims alike - and pledged to do everything possible to contain any possible spread in the violence.

``The influence of communal elements has spread rapidly in the southern parts of Rajasthan and some right-wing politicians have threatened to create a Gujarat-type situation here,`` explained Kavita Srivastava, secretary of the Rajasthan branch of the People`s Union of Civil Liberties (PUCL), one of India`s top rights groups.

For three days, from June 23-25, the brightly colored marquees, set up in the campus of the voluntary organization Social Work and Research Center (SWRC), rang to the sound and sight of women dressed in traditionally bright Rajasthani costumes singing, making speeches and coining slogans against a new political trend toward communalism they say is being exported from Gujarat.

Rights activist and former career bureaucrat Aruna Roy says efforts are being made by fundamentalist politicians to ``disrupt Rajasthan`s rich tradition of communal harmony``. She said that although she was confident that the tradition of harmony remains strong in Rajasthan`s villages, many feel there is a need for women leaders to meet and take a pledge of peace and work out strategies to check ``the spread of communalism``.

Women took the brunt of violence unleashed by Hindu fanatics on Muslims in Gujarat after the torching of a train near Godhra station on February 27. That resulted in the deaths of 58 people, most of them Hindus returning from the temple town of Ayodhya in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh.

Hindu members of the fundamentalist Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP, or World Hindu Forum) from Gujarat have been at the forefront of a campaign to build a temple on the site of a 16th-century mosque that they demolished at Ayodhya 10 years ago.

In reprisals for the killings, members of the VHP, supported by its affiliate, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), which rules the state and the central government, systematically attacked Muslims in their homes and establishments in the months after February 27. More than a thousand people have been killed, and another 100,000 reduced to the status of refugees.

Despite condemnation of the open support for the VHP activists by the state government, leading human-rights groups and even the National Human Rights Commission, the BJP-led government at the center refused to intervene on behalf of the helpless Muslims.

The Gujarat state government led by Chief Minister Narendra Modi failed even to record - much less act on - hundreds of cases of mass rape and sexual abuse of Muslim women that women`s-rights and human-rights groups have documented.

An important delegation to the Tilonia meeting consisted of about 25 female victims of the communal violence in Gujarat, who recounted what they were put through in the dark days of the pogrom to an audience that listened with rapt attention and sympathy.

Without exception, the participants expressed solidarity with the women from Gujarat. ``Before coming here I was completely misinformed and thought that the attacks on Muslims were justified. But now I know the reality about the great injustice done to innocent people and I`ll take back this message to my village,`` said a woman named Ramkanwar.

Other women spoke of better understanding gained at the conference and which would help them to check communalism in their villages. Babita, a teenager from Barah district, said she now understood the ``need to challenge those who want to divide the two communities and disturb peace``.

For their part, the female victims from Gujarat were overwhelmed by the affection and sympathy they got from their sisters in neighboring Rajasthan. ``We felt we were among our own people,`` Bilqis said. ``Such love and affection I`ve seldom experienced before. My hope and faith in humanity is restored and I wish there are more meetings like this.``

The Muslim victims from Gujarat spoke about their experiences, without rancor or desire for revenge. Instead they talked about how it could be possible for the two communities to build a peaceful future together.

Similarly, when Aarti Sahni, who belongs to a Hindu family displaced from Muslim-majority Kashmir, spoke about her family`s shattering experience, it was without ill-feeling. ``We should listen to what the ordinary people of Kashmir have to say to sort out the problems there,`` she said.

Anger, if any, was directed against the ``masculine`` attitude and approach of the government and its insensitivity to the problems of women and children.

Suhana, a victim from Gujarat, said women were deeply concerned by the sufferings of their children in times of communal violence, but the government did not seem concerned. ``I thought true religion included care and compassion for the hungry and the suffering, but it seems only concerned with rituals and temple-building.``

Uma Chakravarti, a senior academician from Delhi, drew attention to the links between various types of violence and discrimination and pointed out that when religion approves of discrimination against dalits (lower-caste Hindus), it creates conditions in society conducive to discrimination against other groups. She suggested that men who participated in communal violence were also likely to have a tendency to be violent within their own families too - and again the victims were women.

Roy emphasized practical aspects of resisting communalism, such as checking the accumulation of weapons and challenging the distribution of provocative literature, a major feature of the pogrom in Gujarat. She led the gathering in pledging that the distribution of inflammatory literature, accumulation of weapons and provocative statements of politicians, would be challenged and checked.

She also said Hindus and Muslims should be encouraged to take part in each other`s festivals and share their joys and sufferings, as before the advent of communal politics. Many women here sported colorful ghagras (wide, billowing, colorful skirts) and cholis (blouses) worn by women in this desert state, but dispensed with the ghungats (veils) as part of the new assertiveness that led them to speak freely.

``We all have to die one day and it is better to die practicing human values instead of surrendering to inhumanity,`` declared Kesar Bua, a saathin (female social activist).

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DG03Df06.html

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It may be of some interest to the people who post here that the two nation theory was not originated by Mr Jinnah, but by Veer Savarkar. He wrote that all Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists constituted one Indian nation since their religion originated in India, and was rooted in Indian culture. Islam and Christianity came from ``outside``, and thus muslims and christians were either minorities or communities living in India, but not part of the Indian nation.

Mr. Savarkar also happens to be the man who coined the term ``Hindutva``.

-narain

Say what stooly

The people who liberally disseminated their genes amongst your ancestors also happen to fire small arms into the air to celebrate.Now that must be something that is not mentioned in your Holy book because it must have been the Brits who provided those blundering busses to them Afganies.

Are the Afganies not bing unislamic here?

jay #15 you quote me as follows ``Karachi, a pleasant coastal city at the time of partition, has been turned into a hellhole of fanatics of all kinds - ethnic fanatics who came from India, and religious fanatics from the middle east as well as local fanatics fed by the evil philosophy of gaining power through exploiting Islam that was brought with him from India by Maulana Maudoodi`` and then you comment ``The people whom tahmed is talking about are not the people who came from india, they are the founding fathers of pakistan, selected by a darwenian process.``

Your single-minded hatred for Pakistan is matched only by your ignorance: Maudoodi, for your information, was OPPOSED to the creation of Pakistan, and came to Pakistan from India in the early 1950`s once he saw the chance to further his political career. The founding fathers of Pakistan were secular people - and Jinnah and co. opted for a separate country because they had had enough of hindu chauvinist attitudes like yours. Today, Pakistan does not need any theories to justify its existence. The latest crisis proved the barrenness of the hindu nationalist mentalitity within BJP. So get used to the idea of Pakistan.

Romair: I think people come to Pakistan for two or three different reasons: From the subcontinent (Bangaldesh/India) they come for economic reasons. From Afghanistan they came seeking asylum from the civil war and the taliban regime, but have stayed on for economic reasons. If these were the only reasons, I would have no problem - since Afghans in particular as well as the educated mohajirs have increased commercial activity in the country.

The problem is caused by those who come for the second and third reasons. The second reason is drug smuggling (Afghans as well as a sprinkling of Nigerians) and that of course has given rise to the drug addiction problem within Pakistan as well as violence. The third reason is terrorism - the Arabs in particular as well as others from all over the world including a handful from western countries. These of course are the worst.

The problem of ethnic violence is caused of course by a different reason AFTER people have migrated. The ethnic violence started from among the mohajirs, but it is important to remember that these are a small minority spearheaded by Altaf Hussain`s MQM, with the vast majority of mohajirs being ordinary people who just want to build a future for their children.

Sadhna #26 you write ``So what is a big deal if one head was seen mutilated.``

Spoken like a true murderous rat.

sadna #25 you write ``tahmed may be more right than he thinks about who is responsible for messing up Karachi``

Hallelujah. We agree on something.

tahmed321 #39
``We agree on something.``
You didnot understand my post, so actually we don`t.

audio-video-radio
Its as simple as whether God forbid the same thing happens to you, you want to be reduced to a statistic like you are reducing Mr Jafri? The point is independent India cannot afford or allow this sort of statistic-keeping between fellow Indians..

Dear Hindus

Please accept heartiest congratulations on the apponitment of mr. L. K. Advani as your Deputy Prime Minister. I hope in near future he will make the 1000 year old dream of an independent Hindu India, come true; finally.

Best wishes for your new homeland.

I guess my earlier post got lost...just think that this was a great article...the author really knows Delhi well, and the timeframe that he talk about is also the Delhi of my memories...great article.

Sadna:

By the way, before the current situation, you could definitley go to Pakistan on tourist visa. I have friends who have gone on pilgrimages to Nankana Sahib etc. It`s hard to get a visa, but the same goes for Pakistanis wanting to visit India.

I also think you are wrong inapportioning blame to Muslims alone for bigotry. Infact, it is common for Hindus, even as kids, to talk about Muslims being dirty and taking a bath jumma sey jumma. Also, common stereotypes of Muslims being good butchers etc..

At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, I would go as far as to state that Muslims have been far more egalitarian than Hindus. A Muslim would have no problem coming to a Hindu household and eating, but god forbid a Hindu invite him. Infact, a lot of bias against Brahmins/Baniyas is from the post Mughal era, when at least in the Punjabi countryside, the Muslim labourer would often be in depb to the Baniya, and be made to feel an outsider by the Brahmin. Not exactly a relationship inducing love and affection.

I recognize Islamic hate groups for what they are, but I don`t think Hindus really have a right to be sanctimonius. Not in the past, not now.

Yt ANOTHER POLL LIKE MORI ONE IN KASHMIR ,THIS IS OF YOUTH OF AMERICA

MAKE WHATEVER OF THIS AS YOU DID OF THE BRITISH ONE.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/techwrapper.jsp?PID=1051-250&CID=1051-070102C

mere Khudaa mujhe itanaa to motabir kar de

mai.n jis makaan me.n rahataa huu.N us ko ghar kar de

The Kids Are All Wrong?

By Howard Fienberg 07/01/2002

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Bob Veltri



Over a third of American college students would dodge the draft if it were instituted today and most think that Western and American culture are no better than Arab or Islamic culture. That was the media focus from a new survey of college students released on June 20. Congressman Tom Tancredo even read a satire of the survey on the House floor. While the media in general failed to see some possible flaws in the poll`s methodology, pundits got so wrapped up bemoaning the state of America`s student body that they overlooked the many points in the survey that should have emboldened commentators.

The survey, commissioned by Americans for Victory Over Terrorism and conducted by Luntz Research Companies, was a telephone poll of 634 college students nationwide to gauge their opinions on the war on terror. Two main points from the survey`s results made national news: that many students would dodge a military draft and most see American culture as not superior to Islamic culture. According to the survey, only 34.3 percent of students would be willing to serve anywhere if they were drafted into the military, while 20.7 percent would serve only in the U.S. and 37 percent would find some way to evade the draft no matter what. Meanwhile, 70-79 percent disagreed that the American values were superior to those of other nations. Whither the war on terror? Not so fast. While these two findings made headlines, there were more than a few bright spots in the students` opinions.

For instance, respondents were quite positive about the U.S. war in Afghanistan. Of the half who were asked if the war was ``moral or immoral,`` 62.9 percent agreed that it was moral (and only 21.4 percent disagreed). Of the other half, asked if the war was ``just or unjust,`` 72.2 percent called it just (and only 15.3 percent disagreed). Also, while the results don`t show a student body wildly supportive of missile defense, 58.4 percent support in some fashion ``the development of a missile defense system.``

In addition, student respondents seem to overwhelmingly support American action against Iraq ``because Saddam Hussein is still attempting to build weapons of mass destruction.`` Again two groups of respondents answered two different questions. Of the first half, queried if the U.S. had ``the right to invade Iraq,`` 66.8 percent responded yes. Meanwhile, of the other half that was asked if the U.S. had ``the right to overthrow Saddam Hussein,`` an even greater 78.4 percent said the U.S. did indeed have the right.

While some of the survey`s results might make it seem that students are out of step with public opinion, a closer examination shows pundits need not be quite so disheartened. For instance, while only 53.3 percent felt that Israeli military action against ``Yasser Arafat and the PLO`` was no different from American military action against Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, that result does not differ too much from the general public. Indeed, if the reference to Arafat (who is continually referred to in the media as the legitimate representative of the Palestinians) had been replaced with ``Palestinian terrorists`` or even Hamas or Islamic Jihad, it is possible that a lot more respondents would agree with the statement.

And it`s true that only 42.7 percent of students said they believed such a thing as the ``Axis of Evil.`` But the question wording was a little vague: ``President Bush used the term `the Axis of Evil` to describe the nations that mean us harm.`` If the pollsters had replaced ``mean us harm`` with more description or had perhaps included the names of the countries fingered as part of the ``Axis`` - Iraq, Iran, North Korea -- the response might have been much different.

While one might expect the students` responses to questions of American and Western cultural superiority would reflect higher education`s penchant for post-modern moral relativism, this is not exactly the case. Respondents overwhelmingly agreed (83.2 percent) that there ``is good and there is evil`` and there ``is right and there is wrong.`` While not ready to declare American/Western culture and values to be superior, 62.6 percent of respondents agreed that ``Despite its flaws, the United States is the best country in the world.``

Finally, the question about the draft was purely hypothetical. While polls regularly pose hypothetical questions, like ``If the presidential election were held today, would you vote for Gore, Bush, Nader, or Buchanan`` the farther away you are from the actual decision, in both time and space, the less useful the responses become. When the ABC News/Washington Post poll asked this question a few days before the 2000 election, the results seemed quite useful (and accurate): 45 percent for Gore, 48 for Bush, 1 for Nader and 3 for Buchanan. When the same poll had asked voters to choose between Gore and Bush eight months earlier (March 11), when the scenario was still far in the future, respondents might not have made up their minds. The results were 48 percent for Gore and 45 for Bush. But, if a pollster asked the Gore-Bush question about the 2004 election, today, the results might be entertaining but would be absolutely worthless. A hypothetical future scenario is not a useful way to judge actual public opinion. In the case of the draft, with there having been little public debate on the issue and the pollsters providing absolutely no context to the question, students` opinions probably have not yet been formed. Therefore, the answers don`t mean much at all.

Much of the survey`s guts were available, like question wording and response data, and there is even analysis available which shows how different demographic groups answered different questions (though with little or no supporting material). Still, some nagging concerns remain. How did Luntz come up with the sample, which was well divided between males and females and across different college levels? How did he manage to randomly sample across colleges? Which colleges were actually surveyed?

These questions are unlikely to be answered, since most pollsters guard their practices like pit bulls. But it would be useful to know. After all, the demographics reveal that about 35.7 percent of the students were Catholic, and 11 percent were either fundamentalist or born-again Protestants. That might help explain the most interesting finding of the poll. When asked ``which do you think is a bigger threat to the United States,`` 36.1 percent of respondents chose Islam ... and 41.4 percent chose Godless communism.

The more things change, I guess, the more they stay the same..the Independent reports of an 18-year old young woman who was gang-raped, allegedly as a result of a decision made by a panchayat.

This makes me sick to my stomach....

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=311397