Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan

Ferishteh: #147: `` even have some Kiyani friends from Pakistan``

Welcome.

There are a lot of Kayanis in Pakistan. A whole lot. There are quite a few Hamadanis and Isphahanis, as well.

Please do a search on Rafiq on this site. My friend has written some articles here, and he is a Kayani, as well.

If you have some time, could you give us your views on how things are in Iran, as compared to the Shah days.

I would like to suggest the names of Haleem Siddiqui and Aitezaz Ahsan as the national chairpersons of PML and PPP respectively (now that BB and NS are being forced to give up their heridatory rights as lifetime heads of these parties, through force, by the current govt).

Haleem Siddiqui is (was) a PML MNA from Karachi. He actually defeated an MQM candidate (which takes a lot of doing in Karachi). He was a minister in the Nawaz Sharif cabinet. He is a Muhajir. And a self made multi-millionaire. He started from poverty. He is a retired Merchant Navy Captain, and I believe onws some ships.

Aitezaz Ahsan is a Cambridge educated lawyer. He is an author of quite a few articles and an odd book or two on items ranging from law to history to culture. He used to be an automatic PPP MNA from Lahore, until PML routed PPP, in Lahore. He is the PPP`s chief lawyer, and generally fights all the corruption cases, defending BB in Pakistan. He has been the interior minister of Pakistan. His brother was (I believe) the Principal of KE Medical College in Lahore, and one of the youngest Pakistanis to ever get an FRCS (or something of this sort).

I don`t think their are any financial or other scandals against these two. They are urban, very balanced, and very well-spoken, and very highly qualified.

Haleem would make a good Muhajir head of a prmarily Punjabi PML. And Aitezaz would become a Punjabi head of a primarily Sindhi party.

I doubt these two will ever make it to the top of the hierarchies of their respective parties. They would end up being a threat to BB and NS. I think BB and NS will apoint someone who is not a challenge to their heridatory leadership, from within their own parties.

Janab Azad Ali Zaidi, please keep your comments to your self.

``The Muslim world is chock-full of rage. Rage at injustices both real and imagined.``

This is untrue and do not make up stuff that you do not know about. We are the only piece loving people in the world. We do not want to fight but others want to fight us. We are always persecuted and we need to fight back. Everyone saing we are trouble makers. We only want to live in piece and with honour. Indian soldiers are only raping our women. We have to rape their women in return. then they will know how it feels. We will rape their men too if they do not stop in Kashmir!!

``For the most part, the Sunni majority sect is content simply to think of the Shia minority as a crazy bunch who worship the Prophet Mohammed’s descendents``

Please dont speak of the The Profet Mohammed (PBUH) like this. The Profet Mohammed (PBUH) was a great man and his children and followers are the same.

``After all, does Pakistan not loyally persecute its own Shia minority and allow Saudi royalty to hunt endangered species on Pakistani soil, all in an attempt to win Saudi favor and patronage?``

This is not true again. Where do you get this information? And so what it they go hunting in Pakistan. They are our brothers and we should help them as they help us with their oil and support.

Please get your facts correct before you critize Islam. You live in Anerica and you have forgotten your own people. You are a shame for Muslims everywhere. Do you even go to mosque and prey 5 times a day? I think not!!!

If you want to help Pakistan send your money to our government so that we can fight the kafir neighbors. See what they did in Gujarath. They killed innocent Muslims who were just sitting there and ding nothing. We need to capture Kashmir back and drive the Kafirs out.

What do you know about Quran? I say you know nothing!! So please keep quiet.

Tahmed321 # 147

Salam. My name is Ferishteh and not Farishteh as it is pronounced in South Asia. Interesting to hear about Manouch , doubt if you still keep contact with him. If he does exist he is probably making money selling carpets and diamonds to US, Europe ,Pakistan, India and Central Asia . If he does not exist atleast he helped relieve your exacerbations.

My friends Kiyanis who claim be descended from Persian Kiyanis who settled in Jhelum dist of Panjab have mentioned to me that learning Persian is considered the pinnacle of refinement in Pakestan. Is that true?

EVen the greatest poet of Pakestan Allama Lahori wrote in Persian.

Are you a Kiyani? Other than that I hear that many Gilanis, Mazandaranis, Garzdezis and Hamdanis have made Pakestan their home and have prospered .

But I must add that Bilochis have not brought Pakestanis a good name in Iran, they are considered to be drug smugglers and generally are not very law abiding people.

Khoda Hafez

Tahmed321 # 147

I do not want to getin the middle of a brother-sister spat here , but do Persians have a chip on their shoulder even after all these years .

On a positive side if what you mentioned about Manouch is true I guess Pakistanis have a lot to be proud of their non-Arab and non-Persian origins cos I have heard of Jordanians and Lebanese etc who flunk exams.

Excellent work, Asad. Very well-written, with a very bold approach sprinkled with sarcasm. And most importantly, you have hit the nail right on the head.

sadna

doesnt make em any cattier than you, does he?

Ferozk #133 you write ``In that sense, he is indebted to Zia-ul-Haq, who filled ranks of the army with Urdu speaking people with middle class backgrounds and broke the tradtional dominance of Punjab in the army.``

In this statement, your ethnic chauvinism is matched only by your detachment from reality.

(I had commented on this earlier, but it never got posted it seems).

Ferozk #143 You seem to like to be led by the man with the biggest guns, while the rest of us like to elect our leaders and have them beholden to us.

Here is a compromise: You do something to land up in prison and so get your wish to have your freedom taken away. The rest of us can elect some crummy politicians in October, then ridicule them for their incompetence, sometimes even put them behind bars for corruption, and always trash them in the next elections. Just like any normal country. How about it??

From the Time article on Musharaff (and specially cut and pasted to cause Jay to have kittens): ``The world is counting on Musharraf to help steer South and Central Asia from local chaos to regional security, from the brink of Armageddon to Pax Pakistana, and from fundamentalist fervor to secular moderation. ``

If this helps soothe outraged feelings, I may add that regardless of what the world is counting on Musharaff to do, Pakistanis are counting on him to ``merely`` to get Pakistan out of the mess that Paki generals have made by sleeping in the same bed as the mullahs (metaphorically speaking, although it could be literally true for rogue generals like Hamid Gul).

ISLAMABAD, July 16: Hard-hitting newspaper editorials warned President Pervez Musharraf today against meddling with the constitution....

The proposed constitutional changes, announced in two packages, have been denounced by some as a death knell for democracy and major political parties and lawyers` bodies have voiced their anger. (Reuters) (Posted @ 14:10 PDT) (DAWN)

Shankar #135: Do you really expect me to discuss South Asia with someone who does not even know who Madhuri is :-)

I suggest you first figure out the meaning of, ``Dhak Dhak karnay laga,`` before commenting on South Asia.......

sadna #137: Your remarks, to a great deal, are accurate.

There is no perfect solution. I am just trying to point out the best possible solution, under the current situation. It will have its anomolies; some of which you have highlighted correctly.

``Romair, its relatively easy to outsmart every politician if.... agitation through political rallies, which he also banned during these three years.``

I don`t think this is completely correct. Assemblies have been outlawed before. Even the ever powerful Bhutto with his awami backing, and governor`s martial laws was unable to stand up to a massive agitation. And he was as much a dictator, as anyone.

The key is to ensure the public doesn`t rise against Musharraf; specifically in the cities. And that has not happened. There has hardly been any agitations to be broken up.

The most powerful agitational group in Pakistan is the maulvi brigade. And even after Sep 11, the maulvi brigade wasn`t able to cause any problems. They were allowed to agitate to their hearts content.

The rural Pakistanis never agitate. They have too many other problems. It is the urban Pakistanis that agitate. And, at the moment, I don`t think they are interested in agitating for PPP and PML. It is thus only the PPP and PML leaders, who are running from one end to the other, crying foul. This is because, they are begining to see their empires crumble. 100 out of 217 MNAs (I believe) are about to be disqualified due to the graduation condition alone. Others have corruption charges against them. Added to this is the fact, that by law, they will now have to hold elections, at all levels, within their own parties. BB being the lifetime chairperson, isn`t too happy about elections is her own party, I assume.

``Will he continue to ban political meetings and rallies?``

No, the ban will be lifted. Infact, one big one was allowed during the referendum.

``You say urban parties sympathetic to Musharraf and his other supporters will win enough seats to counter PPP/PML victories. How can anyone be sure enough about this to bet the future of the government and its proposed constitution on it? ``

This is not a surity. PPP and PML will still be the largest parties, because they will win all the rural Punjab and Sind seats. And this is the risk, he is taking. He has to take this risk, since he cannot keep Pakistan under Martial Law, forever. A lot will depend on which party wins urban Punjab (Lahore is going to be the deciding factor, I think), as I stated earlier.

``Is it being considered that if this assumption is wrong(that most of those who win will be Musharraf supporters), then what kind of instability and power tussles may result?``

I don`t think most will be Musharraf supporters. PPP and PML will win most of the rural seats. But he is hoping, I think, that urban parties will win in urban Pakistan, and they are his supporters.

This is the big risk, and as you stated, it could go either way.

``Not talking to or making peace with the two major parties NOW about the post-election scenario, what exactly does Musharraf gain for Pakistan by this?``

This is a good point. I think Musharraf has tried to make peace with these two parties. He has repeatedly invited their leaders to talks. They keep refusing. They just have one demand, i.e. BB and NS need to be allowed to participate in the elections.

BB and NS are know robber barons, tax evaders, etc. Just read the Indian papers. Infact, both are in self-exile. They do not want to return to Pakistan, because they know they will have to face the courts. No one kicked BB out. She left at her own will to run away from her now well-documented internatinal corruption charges. And NS left after signing a bond, to avoid court proceedings.

Should he talk to these two thugs? I think it is their parties, which have turned into nothing except the fiefdoms of the Bhuttos and Sharifs, that need to realize that they cannot hold the whole political system hostage, just to hide the corruption of their two leaders.

There are good people in PML and PPP. Unfortunately, BB and NS don`t allow them to come to the top. I think Musharraf is more than willing to talk to the leaders of these parties, who are not involved in any corruption cases.

More on what I think will be the strategy adapted by BB and Musharraf later......

Farishteh #141 Welcome to chowk. Interesting dialogue. Here is one conversation I had with an Iranian student studying in Panjab University:

Iranian student (I forget his name, will call him Manouch): I flunked the exams. Could I borrow your class notes to take the supplementary exams.

Self: OK. (I dont need them).

Manouch (a few weeks later): I dont understand. I sneaked in your notes to the examination hall and copied the answer word by word. And I failed again.

Self: Show me what you copied and also show me the questions.

(Manouch does so. I soon realize the problem: there was no bearing between the question and the topic of the notes he copied).

So, while the Pakistani man you mention was short and fat, and the Iranian student I ran into was quite tall...but came up very short at the top. No offense to Iranians of course.

Ferozk to Sadna

``Sadna, do not confuse democracy in Pakistan with the western tradition and assemblies.``

How about with the SUBCONTINENTAL ``tradition and assemblies``

Dear Ferozk:

None of my business -- but you have a few wrinkles of contradictions in your otherwise pristine post of -- MY DICTATOR right or wrong.

regards

Re: Ferozk

``…the best thing that Musharraf can do is to allow a free election and let people judge and elect their candidates…"

That begs the `so what?` question. The elected candidates would still be under Musharraf`s thumb and dependent on him for everything - from selecting PMs to defining foreign/defence policies. This is an important issue because Pakistan`s external obligations and defence budget eat up nearly 90% of the national budget. The elected assembly will have little power, if at all any, over only a fraction of national spending. That is not what people want.

A related issue is -- who will call the shots in Pakistan after October? Will it be the PM or Musharraf? This ambiguity is disastrous for managing external affairs because negotiations can only be conducted with principals, and if the PM and the President are at odds (like during the Lahore process), nothing positive will emerge. Once bitten, twice shy foreign negotiators will be reluctant to engage any Pakistan representative earnestly, because they would have no way of knowing if their counterpart can make good on his promises or obligations. Is it any surprise that over hundreds of years, countries have evolved mechanisms that enable only principals to speak with one voice for their country?

``…the Pakistani people are disgusted by the political parties…"

True, but they have also been denied the pleasure of evicting non-performing politicians.

Musharraf is reinforcing Zia`s precedents of trashing constitutional procedure - that constitutional amendments through decree are acceptable. This institutional attack is worse than any gains that Musharraf can possibly deliver. Musharraf is trying to defy the laws of gravity through political contortions and maneuvers that have failed in every society, including Pakistan. There will be a day of reckoning one day, but Musharraf will be long gone by then. His future successor, like Musharraf, will end up blaming past autocrats. When that happens, please do not blame Musharraf then, since you are championing him now.

Regards