Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan

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Romair#105
On the feudals:
If the Pakistani Army had not denied Awami League power in 1970-71, the stranglehold of the W Pakistani feudals would have been broken once and for all. Why the heck did the Pakistani Army throw away such a valuable chance?

The reason is that casting doubt on the intentions of Bengalis then and that of `feudals` today are only excuses used by the Pakistani Army to deny legitimacy and political space to groups of Pakistanis capable of challenging the Army`s absolute hold on power.

The Army prefered to ally with collaborators/propped-up chamchas than with those with independent sources of power. This was true back in 1970 and now too. Its really sad to see history repeating with absolutely NO LESSONS learned.

shankar #96: Answers to some of your questions:

``Dunno why, but I thought your ``native village`` was in IOK! Gee.. that part of Kashmir is really free``

My family village is in Azad Kashmir. My family lived and grew up in Srinigar. But yes, according to the Indian Constitution, and all the maps in India, my family village is officially considered a part of India, by Indians. I guess that makes me an Indian. However, India still requires me to get a visa if I want to go to India. And it does not allow me to cross over the LOC, into IOK from POK, even though on the map, India considers POK a part of India.

Makes a lot of sense, I guess.

``Gang rapes CAN & DO occur in the Army...Indian or Pakistani...Kashmir & Bangladesh are prime examples``

Yes and no. Gang rapes are occuring in Kashmir. This is well documented. And Pakistanis killed a lot of people (and I assumed raped) in Bangladesh.

However, I am not going to just blame the armies of these two countries for these actions. The true blame goes on the govts. that have sent them there. And the people who support the govts. The armymen always end up holding the bag, when govt. policies go wrong (which is what is going to happen to the Indian armymen, once Indian govt. policies in Kashmir fail).

Any soldier sent in to fight civilian populations hates it, and eventually ends up going nuts. There is far too much psychological pressure. If you do your job well, you have to kill civilians. If you don`t do your job well, you are killed by some of the civilians. It is a lose-lose situation for the soldier. I doubt too many Indian soldiers covet an assignment in Kashmir, at the moment. I am sure they would much rather particiapate in a normal war.

Vietnam, Bangladesh and Kashmir are good examples. Individually, these soldiers are to be blamed. But at a policy level, it is the govts` fault.

I don`t think any rapes are carried out in Army bases within India (i.e. Indian soldier raping a poor village girl in Jaipur or something), nor are they carried out in Army bases in Pakistan. Infact, the wars between India and Pakistan, which did not involve civilians (only fought between the militaries) were quite chivalrous, i.e. Pakistani soldiers did not bomb Indian civilians in Delhi, and Indian soldiers did not bomb Pakistani civilians in Lahore. Prisoners of War were treated quite well, also. I have this from confirmed sources.

``You seem to believe that Mushy is going to eliminate the feudal grip on the country.``

Unfortunately no. I wish he would. But he didn`t, or couldn`t. I don`t know why.

Musharraf has however sidelined the top lot. And he has put many of them behind bars. And he has decentralized their executive authority down to the local level. Kind of like kissing one`s sister, but still a hell of a lot better than what anyone else did.

``Well, if only college grads can contest elections, I guess peasants wont be able to run for elections. So, he will throw out the ``old`` bum feudals & bring in newer ones.``

Yes and no. There are reserved seats for peasants and women in the local assemblies. At the national and provincial levels, peasants have zero chance of getting elected, even if they get a Ph.D. Imran Khan cannot beat a feudal, what to talk of a peasant beating one.

The college grad requirement will get rid of the old feudal lot, but will bring in their kids. So you are correct. But something is better than nothing.

``You mentioned that there is a powerful feudal-military alliance that has been made possible through bonds of marriage. So eventhough Mushy`s family maynot have married into the feudal class, a lot of his generals are.``

This alliance is not that much of an alliance any longer. Feudals have now stopped marrying into the military. They don`t send their kids into the military, any longer either. They now marry into expatriates, and foreign trained businessman. Most of the top echelon of the military now, are basically from middle class families.

And the alliances are usually built through the top person. Ayub and Zia`s families joined this alliance, and became a part of the system, and part of the problem. Musharraf`s family has not, so far.

``Mushy has now alienated the right wing religionists (by strategic U turns), the middle class (by the bogus referendum), the intelligentsia (by undemocratic amendments to the Constitution) & now the Military-feudal nexus?!``

The first part is correct. But he has made a lot of friends in Pakistan, due to his stance against the maulvi brigade.

I don`t think the second part is correct. Most urban parties, on the whole, still support him. And I haven`t seen a single demonstration against him. Or any uprising etc. I think the people like him better than NS and Bhutto. Or the people just don`t care anymore. The main PPP and PML politicians are however against him. But I don`t think they always represent the wishes of the people.

The intelligensia of Pakistan is somewhat cynical and criticizes everyone. Being critical of the govt. in Pakistan is considered patriotic. The criteria to use here is that they dislike Musharraf less than they dislike NS and BB etc. I think, on the whole, they do realize that Pakistan now has more press freedom than ever before, and is now in a progressive mode. And even Musharraf`s harshest impartial critics have accepted that he is honest, sincere and forward looking, though undemocratic.

``So the only thing thats holding him in office is his friend Bushy & the Indians``

I don`t think this is correct. What is holding him in power is the incompotence of the status quo tried and tested politicians. People may not like Musharraf`s dictatorship, but they are sick and tired of the old politicians also. That is why, cry as they might, the PPP and PML have not been able to move too many common Pakistanis to join them in their protests.

And the fact that the international lending institutions are happy with the direction the Pakistan economy is taking (even before Sep 11).

``Are Pakistani peasants so naieve (or am I)? Why cant they vote for a non-feudal? (I guess every feudal has an opponent running for election too--or is that not so, as well?)``

Pakistani peasants aren`t naive. They are completely powerless and enslaved (in some cases literally in feudal jails) by feudals.

I don`t know much about Indian politics, but I think it cannot be compared with Pakistani feudal politics. Poverty isn`t the main problem in feudal Pakistan, politically. There are urban poor also, in Pakistan. Neither is illiteracy. Both of these are no doubt huge problems, but not the main.

The main problem is land ownership.

The feudal owns all the land that is tilled by the peasants. In that sense, he completely owns the peasants` livelihood, their villages etc. He can legally kick him/her off the land. Over decades and centuries, a system has been put into place, where the feudal (the big ones) even gives judicial judgements in conflicts. They are basically kings.

So the peasants are not only poor, they are powerless. If someone can get kicked off the land, with no skills, can get his daughter abducted, etc., how can they even think of not voting for the feudal. They could all unite, but the feudals ensure that stage never reaches. And the feudals are in the Assemblies, and make all the laws. They will make sure that their lands remain feudal (which in turn means Pakistan remains backwards). Why else do you think all these feudals want elections, and are politicians? Shouldn`t they be into agriculture and not politics?

I think the problem of illiteracy and poverty exists in rural India, but not the problem of massive absentee landlordism. So urban Indian politics can be compared to urban Pakistani politics, but rural Indian politics cannot be compared to rural Pakistani politics. And over 60% of Pakistan is still rural.

In non-feudal villages, like mine, peasants can and have become leaders and politicians. Many of their second generations are now educated.

In some feudal areas (most maybe), there is an opposition. But it is also the local opposing feudal. If you look at the rural wing of PPP and PML, it is nothing but opposing feudals. Leghari was in PPP and Khosas (opposing feudal in same area) are in PML. Abida Hussein and her husband are in PML, while Faisal Hayat (opposing feudal, and one-time candidate as Benazir`s husband) is in PPP. So on and so forth. In many cases, these guys are related (Faisal is the nephew of Abida). In some areas, like Benazir`s Larkana etc., only one feudal dominates. So he/she gets elected unopposed.

Invariably, there are two things common in these feudal areas:

1. The more powerful the feudal/tribal leader, the more backwards the area. My family village, in Kashmir, like I stated, is now decades ahead of Leghari`s feudal areas outside Dera Ghazi Khan, Benazir`s feudal areas outside Larkana, and Abida`s feudal areas outside Jhang (I have lived close to these areas, not counting Larkana, so I know first hand). Even though my family village really has no political significance. It has only sent a few senior leaders into the local Kashmiri beaurecracy. Nothing at the Pakistan level.

2. The feudal or his/her next generation (if the feudal himself is not highly educated) is in big-time Western universities, and live in the poshest areas of urban Pakistan. Leghari is Oxford. Benazir is Harvard/Oxford. Abida`s kids are in Harvard etc.

``Are you suggesting that a non-feudal doesnt even DARE to oppose a Bhutto candidate in Larkhana? Or if he does, the polls are so blatantly rigged that its a waste of time to even run an election?``

The polls are not really rigged. They don`t need to be. But a non-feudal cannot challenge a feudal. He/she will never win. Look what happen to this girl, whose little brother allegedly was seen walking with a girl from another trible. And this incident did not even involve any of the super-feudal families. Do you think, this girl`s family could ever think of voting for someone other than the powerful feudal.

The are historically hardly any cases in Pakistan, in which a fedual has been defeated by a non-feudal. As I stated even Imran Khan has zero shot of defeating local feudals in their areas. So much so, that his (our) party doesn`t even compete in those areas.

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Veeresh #65 and Zafar #84

Chiniotis of Panjab have similar origins - that is they are descended from Panjabi Hindu castes such as Wadhawan etc. and that they are by far the biggest entrepreneurs of Pakistan and in this case it seems they have even settled down in Bangladesh.

Anika Zaidi,

{{If you go on trying to prove casteless ness by proposing to marry every beutiful muslim woman or Man & if they reject you...u start whining about Islam not being practiced... only you r to be blamed for over simplification of things ...he he he}}

Anika,

Your style of post & stupidity of its content makes me believe you are 12 head`s new head.

Give it up, you sick retard..

Pakistan needs immediate land reforms, which erdicate the fedualism in the country; universial education, specially for the women, because an educated woman is more likey to educate her children than an educated male and most importantly, it needs transparent social justice.

Pakistani caste system is based on a social heirarchy of the fedual order and it uses politics, cloaked in religion, to mask its real intentions, which is the exploitation of power to preserve an economic influence based on the principle of timocracy.

Pakistani education system, which lauds the act of learning by rote, is a principle reason why Pakistani society is so intolerant. Learning by rote does not mean that a person understands, what s/he is learning and in Pakistan, memorization is more valued than understanding the text. Pakistani education derives its importance from the Islamic tradition of respecting authority, without questioning its dictums and thus, is prone to dogamtic assumptions and believes, because this intellectual myopia disallows critical thought.

Hence, anything which questions the orthodoxy is automatically blamed as heresy and since religion is used to silence political dissent, questioning the state`s actions can be dangerous to one`s health. This lack of accountibility prompts depotism in politics and this breed of politics shuns education, because it is a threat to its power structures.

Education is denied, because without education the people have a nil chance to improve their economic status and this aids the social-economic structure of fedualism.

The root cause of decay in Pakistan is not fedualism, or a lack of education, but the inability of the average Pakistani to take a stand against this evil. The problems of Pakistan were the result of the handiwork of Pakistanis themselves for the last 55 years. They have no one to blame, but themselves for the mess they are presently in and only they can escape this whirlpool of doom if they rebel against it.

It is not a question of whether the Pakistanis can take a stand or rebel, but when are they going to do so, that is the question which they have to answer.

Those who can, they do; and those who cannot, they immigrate. Pakistanis are immigrating all over the world!

Ciao

hobbyty

A compromised truth is worst than a lie. The line of logic that you follow give credence to their moral value-which is-``since they are incapable of taking care of themselves therefore, their oppression is justified``. The predicament that Islamia is in today is because of two factors:

1. Internal factor

2. External factor

Ignoring or downplaying the `external factor` is mass suicide. What is wrong, is wrong, is wrong, is wrong,..........regardless of who does that wrong. Uncompromised truth my friend...the bitter one....that is what we need.

cemendtaur #78
``The idea of simultaneous monthly peace vigils held around the globe was conceived by peace groups in India and Pakistan``

Very commendable. Let me suggest at least two more locations for peace vigil, one outside the Jamaat-ud-Daawa compound in Muridke Pakistan, and another outside the premises of the jihadi organisation of choice in Karachi, Pakistan.

There will be two fold advantages:

1. These jihadi organisations will see for themselves whether and how much ordinary Pakistanis oppose their armed agenda.

2. Though the police are sure to come and arrest you `disturbing the peace` and `spoiling image of Pakistan` for your peaceful vigil, the advantage is that the next time there is a major terrorist attack in Pakistan, the police will finally know the route to these institutions to go search for suspects.

A befitting reply from the West to the Israeli Apartheid regime`s racist policies against the Palestinian people.

UK Scholars Debate Boycott of Israel

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 3:33 a.m. ET

LONDON (AP) -- Hundreds of European academics have called a boycott of Israeli universities to protest treatment of the Palestinians -- a move that has led to the firing of two Israelis from British publications and prompted allegations of discrimination and intellectual censorship.

Boycott supporters insist they`re exerting political pressure on the Israeli government.

But Miriam Shlesinger says she is a victim of academic discrimination. A lecturer in translation studies at Bar-Ilan University in Tel Aviv, Shlesinger was fired from a journal, The Translator, by an editor who supports the boycott.

``I was appointed as a scholar,`` Shlesinger said Wednesday. ``But I was dismissed as an Israeli.``

The online petition calls on academics not to ``cooperate with official Israeli institutions, including universities`` to protest Israel`s ``military reoccupation of the Palestinian territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip`` -- a reference to Israel`s military campaign begun in March in response to attacks by Palestinian suicide bombers.

The petition commits signatories not to travel to Israel for conferences or to ``participate as referee in hiring or promotion decisions by Israeli universities,`` but says they should ``continue to collaborate with, and host, Israeli scientific colleagues on an individual basis.``

Steven Rose, a professor at Britain`s Open University who helped start the campaign, likens it to the cultural and sporting sanctions imposed on apartheid South Africa.

``We are concerned with boycotting or refusing to collaborate with Israeli institutions,`` Rose told British Broadcasting Corp. radio.

``Unfortunately institutions are expressed through individuals ... That means that some of our friends are actually going to suffer for it.``

More than 750 academics -- most from Europe but including 10 from Israel -- have signed the petition or a related one calling for a moratorium on European Union cultural and scientific ties to Israel until Israel ``abide(s) by U.N. resolutions and open(s) serious peace negotiations with the Palestinians.``.....

Amnon Rubinstein, a former Israeli Minister of Education and former dean of Tel Aviv University law school, said the boycott was outrageous.

``There are many disputes and many accusations against many other states, and I haven`t heard of a petition like this against any other country,`` he said.

Last month, Shlesinger was asked to step down from the editorial board of The Translator, a semiannual journal, by owner and editor Mona Baker.

Baker, a professor at the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology, signed the Internet petition.

Baker also asked Tel Aviv University professor Gideon Toury to resign from the advisory board of another journal she owns, Translation Studies Abstracts.

When Shlesinger and Toury refused, Baker fired them.

``It has nothing to do with our views,`` Shlesinger told The Associated Press. ``We were dismissed because we have the wrong passports.``

Baker`s husband said she was unwilling to speak to the media Wednesday.

Ken Baker -- who is managing director of St. Jerome, the journals` publisher -- said Toury and Shlesinger were fired not because they are Israeli, but because they work for Israeli universities.

``This is a boycott of Israeli academic institutions, `` Baker said.

``If an Israeli happened to be working for an American institution, or a British institution, or a Swedish institution, we`d have no problem with that whatsoever.``

Baker was quoted by The Guardian newspaper as saying she fired the two academics based on ``my interpretation of the boycott statement that I`ve signed.``

Efraim Inbar, a professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University, criticized the boycott, saying: ``I think between academics to boycott someone because of their government policies which they have no control over is disgraceful.``

Britain`s National Union of Students also condemned the boycott.

``To exclude people because of their nationality is abhorrent and nothing short of racism, and should be universally condemned,`` the union`s anti-racism campaigner, Daniel Rose, was quoted as saying by The Guardian.

The boycott also has been condemned by Jewish groups such as the anti-Defamation League and the Simon Wiesenthal Center, and petitions denouncing it have sprouted on the Internet.

One, based at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, claims to have received 13,000 signatures, while another, set up in the United States and signed by more than 1,000 academics, calls the boycott an ``alarming and non-constructive development.``

``The chilling of contacts targets those in Israel who are reaching out to interact with the world community,`` it says.

That irony is not lost on Shlesinger, a left-winger and former head of Israel`s chapter of Amnesty International who opposes current Israeli policies toward the Palestinians.

Israeli Prime Minister ``Ariel Sharon is not going to end the occupation because Miriam Shlesinger has been thrown off the board of The Translator,`` she said. ``Even a massive academic boycott is not going to cause the government to change its ways. It doesn`t do anything except undermine science.``

------

On the Net:

Pro-boycott site, http://www.pjpo.org

____________________________________________

Mariam says -- ``Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is not going to end the occupation because Miriam Shlesinger has been thrown off the board of The Translator,`` she said. ``Even a massive academic boycott is not going to cause the government to change its ways. It doesn`t do anything except undermine science.``



Then tell us -- Ms left winger Miriam Schlesinger – an ex ‘Amnesty International’ -- IF ``Even a massive academic boycott is not going to cause the government to change its ways`` -- THEN what else will do? -- a ‘massive’ NATO attack on Israel? -- would you recommend that?

Looks like -- the 55 years of breast beatings about -- `Small size`, Holocaust Museums and Schindlers`lists -- are not going to work anymore as an XCUSE and a SHIELD -- for that Israeli Nazi Butcher -- the Supreme Coward -- who uses TANKS to kill Palestinian 2 year olds -- to continue to buthcher Palestinian children -- with impunity.

you just don’t know how pathetic and ridiculous you -- the Israeli intellectuals -- look when you HAVE to defend someone like Sharon because he is YOUR Nazi -- right or wrong.

Undermine science? -- wake up Israeli intellectuals -- look around -- and see -- WHAT your morally bankrupt government has done for you – turn you into the likes of the South African White Pariahs with resemblances of German Nazis.

You condemned the German intellectuals and academics for not fighting hard enough -- against the German Hitlerites – now let’s us see how HARD you fight against your own Israeli Hitlerites.

It`s they -- not the West -- who have pushed you in company of such `august untouchables` as the German Nazis and the White Supremacists of South Africa.

khokan,

{{Has it ever occurred to Asad Ali Zaidi that the half million Hindu Sindhis who were driven into exile at India`s partition have a far better cause for grievance than the half million Palestinians who went into exile at Palestine`s partition? }}

Nice point. Those Palestinians are getting waaay too much attention (& sympathy, if you ask me). In fact, many of their leaders (so that I sound politically correct) are so engrossed in feeling sorry for themselves, that they have not done a SINGLE thing to identify & support other people, who have lost just as much, perhaps much more than them (Kashmiris & Kurds immediately come to mind). As far as I`m concerned, their violent, terrorist tactics have destroyed any sympathy I feel for their cause.

As far as the Sindhi hindus are concerned. Its Pakistan`s loss. They have settled in India & have diasporas all over the world. The success that these Sindhis have achieved in a generation or two, would even make a Jew green with envy.

Romair,

#75

Nice post. Just a few tongue-in-cheek comments:

1)Dunno why, but I thought your ``native village`` was in IOK! Gee.. that part of Kashmir is really free!:))

2)Gang rapes CAN & DO occur in the Army...Indian or Pakistani...Kashmir & Bangladesh are prime examples.

3)You seem to believe that Mushy is going to eliminate the feudal grip on the country. Well, if only college grads can contest elections, I guess peasants wont be able to run for elections. So, he will throw out the ``old`` bum feudals & bring in newer ones. The more he tries to change things, the more things will remain the same.

4)You mentioned that there is a powerful feudal-military alliance that has been made possible through bonds of marriage. So eventhough Mushy`s family maynot have married into the feudal class, a lot of his generals are.

Mushy has now alienated the right wing religionists (by strategic U turns), the middle class (by the bogus referendum), the intelligentsia (by undemocratic amendments to the Constitution) & now the Military-feudal nexus?!

So the only thing thats holding him in office is his friend Bushy & the Indians (who unite Pakistanis behind Mushy) by threatening war. With friends like that, I wish he had more enemies!

5)Are Pakistani peasants so naieve (or am I)? Why cant they vote for a non-feudal? (I guess every feudal has an opponent running for election too--or is that not so, as well?) If Indian peasants get mad at their leadership, they throw the bums out in the next elections--whether those peasants are literate or illiterate. So, I dont understand why a non-feudal cant contest elections.

I guess what I`m asking you is that if (for eg) Bhutto`s peasants are so enslaved & unhappy with that family, who is putting a gun to their head & asking them to vote for that khandan?! Are you suggesting that a non-feudal doesnt even DARE to oppose a Bhutto candidate in Larkhana? Or if he does, the polls are so blatantly rigged that its a waste of time to even run an election?

t, zafar et al . . . the bania query was in context with a conversation with my Dad about banias benefitting from every form of commerce in the past . . . now if banias were removed from Paki society, who stepped in to run the corner shops?

I mean, OK, which community runs the kirana shops, you kno,w the rice / wheat / soap / jagery / spices etcetc?

I think we need a few simple ``me and my mohala / colony / nagar / bagh / paara / mandi / ghantaghar / chaudi sadak / sadar / etctec`` kind of articles from some Pakis here.

About time. I don`t think I can take any more about Jinnah!!

cheers

Dawn Editorial: The editorial correctly calls for an end to the murderous Blasphemy Law in Pakistan that has encouraged mullahs to form mobs.

``Narrow escape in Faisalabad

Mercifully, a US navy engineer of Pakistani descent was saved from lynching in a Jaranwala village near Faisalabad when the police arrived just in time to stop an angry mob from killing him under orders of the village Pesh Imam. His crime: being an American citizen and daring to ask the preacher to desist from delivering a `political sermon`.

After the Friday prayer, the furious preacher ordered the villagers to `kill the American` because he had blasphemed Islam. Luckily, the family was able to inform the police well in time and saved his life from an angry mob that had already begun pelting stones on his in-laws` house where he had taken shelter to protect himself from the fury of the mob.

Later, the US embassy interceded with the government, which moved to arrest the preacher for inciting violence against a US citizen. A Pakistani citizen in a Chak Jhumra village, not too far from Jaranwala, was stoned to death following a similar edict of another village preacher that same fatal Friday.

Should the arrest of the Pesh Imam in question be the end of the matter? One hopes not; because, for every target of a blasphemy charge who escapes death by beating or stoning, there are several others who suffer terribly at the hands of mobs worked up to blind fury and hatred by some zealots. While there is a pressing need to restrain the preachers from issuing such edicts, it is also time the government moved to review the Blasphemy Act, which has been used time and again to persecute innocent individuals, and to settle personal scores. ``