Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan

Dear Feroz,

Thank you for the modification. Though nothing is set in stone, you`re more in the right than I am since majority of the evidence does go for Julius Caesar accidentally burning the scrolls. I`ve been confusing the issue with the smaller Serapium libraries and the destruction of the Serapis temple by emperor Theophylline/ theodopolopolus (can`t remember the name) etc etc.

Umer M

re:Reply #: 214

Umer Murtaza

``Universities and hospitals were concepts conceived and executed by the Muslims.``

It is not surprising you say so. Perhaps this is the history you were taught in Pakistan. I believe, the history as taught in Pakistan, starts with the invasion of Sindh by Md-bin-Qasim.

This of course gives me an opportunity to educate you and i feel happy about it. Taxila (previously called Takshashila)which is in Pakistan, was the first world university (at least first recorded in history). It was established in 3rd century B.C. Nalanda was established about 7 centuries later but still before Islam was founded by its Prophet.

Nalanda at any given time had more than 100,000 resident students and more than 3000 resident teachers. More than 60 subjects were taught. Education was free. Read more about it in the following Url:

http://atributetohinduism.com/articles_hinduism/169.htm.

Sridhar

Re: Romair

There are many all-volunteer militaries in the world who willingly accept the occupational hazards that come with job, but are not prone to grab power arrogantly by deposing civil authority, because they perform a `special duty`. The Pakistan armed forces do not do anything exceptional by this yardstick that gives them the right to conquer Islamabad from time to time. Hiding behind the figleaf of producing shaheeds for `supreme national interest` is not a good enough reason. This is my business, because we live in an increasingly globalized world, and anamolous events in one country can have global effects -- e.g. 9/11. It is as much my concern as it is of a worried US administration or the Indian govt. or the British Commonwealth.

Re: Romair

There are many all-volunteer militaries in the world who willingly accept the occupational hazards that come with job, but are not prone to grab power arrogantly by deposing civil authority, because they perform a `special duty`. The Pakistan armed forces do not do anything exceptional by this yardstick that gives them the right to conquer Islamabad from time to time. Hiding behind the figleaf of producing shaheeds for `supreme national interest` is not a good enough reason. This is my business, because we live in an increasingly globalized world, and anamolous events in one country can have global effects -- e.g. 9/11. It is as much my concern as it is of a worried US administration or the Indian govt. or the British Commonwealth.

Shammi

Since the first thing you notice is the religion of writers (an entirely secular affliction) Indian, or rather Hindu Indians seem unable to reconcile themselves - They are in the grip of an identity crisis - What does it mean to be a Hindu and an Indian or it there any difference between the two? Only Hindus and Indians will have to answer, whatever the answer, it will have consequences for those in India and those who must be vigilant to ensure hindu fascism is contained.

``Militants seek Muslim-free India

Burhan Wazir reports from Gujarat on an explosion of violence, nationalism and Nazi-style politics and its result: 2,000 killed and 100,000 homeless

Sunday July 21, 2002

The Observer

At the elegantly simple home of Mahatma Gandhi in Ahmedabad, the bustling capital of Gujarat state, a museum eulogises his contribution to the founding of India. Gandhi`s clothes, books, journals and photographs line the walls. Outside in the freshly watered gardens the mango trees are in full bloom. One journal contains Gandhi`s simple denunciation of violence: `The science of war leads one to dictatorship. The science of non-violence alone can lead one to a pure democracy.`

More than 50 years after his death at the hands of a nationalist militant, Gandhi would find India unrecognisable. In the past five months his home state has been stunned by religious violence that shows few signs of fading.

India`s worst religious violence since the 1947 partition was sparked at the end of February when 57 Hindu pilgrims were killed in the alleged torching of a train carriage by Muslim militants in Godhra. Hindu militants sought a swift revenge.

Since then, massacres by Hindu gangs have become commonplace. In five months, more than 2,000 Muslims have been killed and more than 100,000 displaced, congregating in squalid camps around Gujarat.

The state is in turmoil. On Friday, only hours after the state`s top elected official, Chief Minister Narendra Modi, resigned and dissolved the legislative assembly to seek a fresh mandate, at least two people were killed and eight others injured when police opened fire to disperse rioting mobs. In recent months Mohdi had come under attack for his delayed response to the killings. His resignation was eclipsed, however, on Thursday when 70-year-old Muslim scientist Dr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, an unrepentant nationalist and the father of India`s nuclear missile programme, was elected to the largely ceremonial role of President.

The violence has been linked to the rise of extremist Hindu groups such as the Association of National Volunteers, or the RSS - a khaki-clad nationalist paramilitary sect formed in the Twenties - and its offspring, the World Hindu Council, or the VHP.

Gujarat is one of the few states in India controlled by the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party. The state has been described as a `laboratory for Hindu fascism`. Since rising to power in the mid-Nineties, the BJP has aggressively pursued a pro-Hindu agenda.

It has also backed the construction of a temple in Ayodhya, where Hindu nationalists destroyed a mosque in 1992. Several members of the present Cabinet, including the Indian Deputy Prime Minister, L.K. Advani, were present at the demolition.

The RSS and the World Hindu Council, described locally as `Saffron Warriors`, have one clear aim: Hindu expansion by mass conversion. The militants believe that India was once an empire of 75 countries stretching from Cambodia to Iran.

They have introduced textbooks that convey former Hindu glories, and they propagate the myth of an India under siege from native Islamic militants. The RSS also lobbies to reintroduce the traditional names of cities like Mumbai, until recently Bombay.

`The situation is getting out of control,` says Arvind Sisodia, vice-president of the VHP in Gujarat. A passionate advocate of the Hindutva or `global Hindu conscious ness`, Sisodia is a middle-class worker at the Life Insurance Corporation of India.

`In Gujarat, the Muslims own all the shops; they are involved in illegal trade,` says Sisodia. `And Muslim boys steal our Hindu girls and marry them. So the situation is unbearable.`

In the days after the first killings in Gujarat, the VHP distributed leaflets asking Hindus to pledge a boycott of Muslims - including refusing to be taught by Muslim teachers and ensuring sisters and daughters did not fall into `the love-trap of Muslim boys`.

`It is up to all Hindus to make sure that we restore India to dominance,` says Sisodia. `Hinduism was once the dominant faith. Muslims have to learn to adapt. Otherwise, it will be dangerous for them. We don`t want them here.`

A few days after the deaths at Godhra, on a humid morning in an inner-city enclave of Ahmedabad, around 20 men marched up to the Indian flag and offered the Nazi salute. This was a training camp, or shakha, run by the RSS. There are about 40,000 camps scattered throughout India and informal ones abroad for expatriates.

The men, many of them in their thirties, are middle-class professionals - employees of Ahmedabad`s bustling industrial community. India`s middle classes are the keenest recruits to the RSS - drawn by fears of Islamic terrorism and of Westernisation amid a crumbling national economy.

In a fashionable Ahmedabad gated community lives Vijay Chauthaiwale, a microbiologist. Over lunch, with the World Cup playing on a satellite channel behind him, he explained his attraction to the RSS: `We are a very modern family,` he said, `but I feel that the more we move towards the West, the more likely we are to lose our Hindu values.

`Gandhi would not have understood,` he said. `He was an old-fashioned man with old-fashioned ideas. No one believes those things any more. The world has changed. And for Hindus to survive, we have to protect our culture and our way of life.`

For middle-class families such as Chauthaiwale`s, the Indian secular experiment has proved disastrous. The country`s Muslim population - now 11 per cent - is seen as a primary threat. `Where do the allegiances of the Muslims lie?` asked Kaushik Mehta, general secretary of the VHP in Gujarat.

He pointed to an enclave of Ahmedabad dubbed `mini-Pakistan` for its madrassahs, or Islamic schools. `We can`t allow such places to exist. They train terrorists. Muslims have to integrate. If they refuse to, we`ll be forced to make them. Or they can leave.`

For the 100,000 Muslims in squalid camps around Gujarat there is no such escape. In nearby Pakistan, India`s Muslims are viewed as traitors who betrayed Pakistan after partition. And now the Muslim camps are being shut down, casting their occupants into the streets and into the hands of Hindu extremists.

Most are fearful of returning to their villages. `They can`t go back because they face death threats,` said Father Cedric Prakash, director of Prashant, a human rights group in Ahmedabad. `The fanatics have all the power.`

More violence seems inevitable. At the end of February, Anjum Bana escaped her village in Panderwala with her six-week-old daughter. As Hindu militants torched the village, she hid in the forest. `There was nothing to eat or drink for three days,` she said. `I could hear people shouting RSS slogans all around me. And my child was dying. I know I can`t go back.`

The hawkish former Chief Minister of Gujarat, Narinder Mohdi, however, is unconvinced. In the early days of the rioting, as the body count escalated, Mohdi famously said Gujarat`s Hindus had shown `remarkable restraint`. Shortly before resigning on Friday, he said: `There is no problem with people returning back home. If they don`t want to go, they should be forced back. They have to go back.`

In a shabby camp in a graveyard in Ahmedabad, residents have taken to organising a night-time watch. `They know that once we are on the streets we are vulnerable. I can`t understand it. I have lived with Hindu neighbours for 40 years, and there have never been any problems. Now those same neighbours have turned on me. And no one will look after us.`

Burhan Wazir presents `Unreported World: Saffron Warriors` on Channel 4 on Saturday at 7.40 pm.``

Happy ``love trap``

Rahmatein Hein Teri Aghyar Ke Kashanoon Pur

Burq Girti Hai to Bechare Musalmanoon Pur.

Iqbal.

There is no question that Muslims have been defeated in all respects by the end of last century. For some reasons while the west was going through a renaissance phase and creative activity was at its height, Muslim rulers were happy with their conquests of past. Is Muslim masses or population in Muslim world is at fault, for not keeping up. Or Muslim intelligentia failed or Maulanas and Maulvis created an oppressive enviornment. Can we blame all Muslim population. What happened after Abbasid is a spiraling down. At that time there was creative activity at its peak in Muslim world. Two great venters of learning in Muslim world Spain and Baghdad have been destroyed.

Coming to the question of Israel first. Zionist movement was probably started in late last 19th century (or became pretty strong) with British help. Jewish problem was a problem of West all along the history. Israel was the solution. But it means displacement of Palestinians from their own land. But it was justified on historical and religious ground, by West and jews. West to find solution of jewish problem. And jews to find a homeland of their own. Palestinians mostly Muslims were sufferers in all this saga. And they have the sympathy of vast number of not only Muslims but non Muslims as well. It is a matter of identification and perspective. (Meaning with whom one identifies oneself when taking sides).

The anti- American feeling among Muslim world is an absurd assertion. I don`t know how much Muslims are cubans or vietnamese or for that matter even french, German or Chinese. Moreover if majority of people of Iran for example want to get rid of Shah of Iran and America insists on supporting and backing Shah of Iran, I don`t think Iranians can be blamed for that. Or if USA pats Pervez Musharraf (as their ownn S.O.B.) and is going to accept as valid the next farce called election, it should not be surprised if a significant number of people bear Anti- American feeling.

UM # 214

Why should you care about who destroyed the Alexandrian libraries. You must be happy that the books that preached blasphemy were consigned to Godly wrath.Ain`t that right Abdul or is it Achmed.

Abdul, Did you know that there are strains of Hinduism that practically agree with the atheistic Buddhist philosophy. Therein lies the difference with Hinduism , the ability to coexist at the philospohical level with widely disparate philosophies.

Abdul,did you know that ancient Arabs and Persians used the Karez form of irrigation thousands of years ago and that they still do.

Time stands still doesn`t it. You still have to figure a way to loot/rob other civilisations albeit under the thin veneer of propagating desert nomad values.

Uniformity makes morons out of people, let them be different and let them act different .

But that ain`t the Lord`s way , right Abdul.

Abdul whom do you trace your illustriousness to - the Arab bedouin or the Persian freebooter or the Afghan brigand who chose to spend some time satiating their perversions with one of your ancestors.

Ref Umer Murtaza #: 214

[Universities and hospitals were concepts conceived and executed by the Muslims. As for the Buddhists, I`m reminded of the lie by a Christian friend of mine that the party of Omar burnt the libraries of Alexandria, whereas it was in fact the Christian Romans. Similarly, an individual, whom I had previously advised to drench his women`s saris to conserve the petrol, is now accusing my faith for something when his own was responsible for massacring and forcing the Buddhists into its fold.]

You will soon be telling us that the Taliban preserved the Bamiyan Buddhas.

Tell me again, please, pretty please with sugar and icing on top, that Islam is a peace-loving religion.

Or how about those beautiful verses in the Koran that exhort Muslims to be tolerant of idol-worshippers?

People like you ought not to be allowed out without adult supervision.

First, about the library at Alexandria:

``The original library - completely destroyed in antiquity, probably in a fire following Caesar`s sacking of the city in 48 BC - was built by Hellenistic king Ptolemy in the beginning of the 3rd century BC. The construction of a great library that would bring together knowledge from cultures and civilizations worldwide was inspired by Alexander the Great`s ideal of unifying the world. The library incorporated and fully catalogued the entire body of known Greek literature as well as Greek translations of works from the Mediterranean, the Middle East and India. Bibliotheca Alexandrina became the world`s first university boasting scholars such as Euclid, Erastosthenes, Heron and Archimedes.``

This happened in 48 BC, which is almost 50 years before Issa bin Mariam was born and some 75 years before he founded Christianity. So there were no ``Christian`` Romans who could have burnt down the Alexandria library, only pagan Romans.

Now, to Nalanda.

Just in case any of you mufukkas want to deny history, here it is, in black and white, as written by a Muslim historian of that era:

Tabakat-i Nasiri of Abu ‘Umar Minhaju-d din, ‘Usman ibn Siraju-d din al Juzjani.

In The History of India as Told by its own Historians. The Posthumous Papers of the Late Sir H. M. Elliot. John Dowson, ed. 1st ed. 1867. 2nd ed., Calcutta: Susil Gupta, 1956, vol. 13.

1. Overview

The Tabakat-i Nasiri is a history of the world from the earliest time to 658 H. (1260 CE). Its author, Abu ‘Umar Minhaju-d din, ‘Usman ibn Siraju-d din al Juzjani, was descended from a noble family of Ghaznî which had been discplaced following the fall of the Ghaznivids. His father, Maulana Siraju-d din, was the qazi of Muhammad Ghori’s army in India. Minhaju-d Siraju-d came to India in 624 H. (1227 CE), and was appointed the director of Firozi College in Uch. In 625 H. (August 1228 CE) entered the service of the Sultan of Delhi, Shamsu-d din Altamish. He resigned during the brief rule Sultan Raziya, but was appointed Qazi of Delhi by her successor, Sultan Bahram Shah, in 639 H. (1241 CE) When the Sultan was slain and deposed later that year, he resigned and retired to Lakhnauti in Bengal. In 642 H. he returned to Delhi, and entered the service of Sultan Nasiru-d din Mahmud in 644 H (1246 CE). It is believed that he outlived by several years the Sultan, who died in 664 H. (1266 CE). The Tabakat-i Nasiri is dedicated to the Sultan, and extends to the fifteenth year of his rule (658 H., 1260 CE).

The first excerpt narrates Muhammad Bakhtiyar’s infamous raid on Bihar and his destruction of Nalanda, which occurred in 1193 CE. This raid was undertaken under the rule of Qutb-ud-dîn Aibak, the de facto ruler of the Ghûrid holdings in Northern India, and the first of Sultan of Delhi following the death of Muhammad Ghûri in 1206 CE.

The second excerpt narrates events during the reign of Sultan Îltutmish. He was the son-in-law of the first sultan of Delhi, Qutb-ud-dîn Airak. Within a year of the latter’s death he deposed his son Ârâm Shâh, and placed himself on the throne, ruling until his death in 1236 CE. The excerpts describe his conquest of Gwailor and Malwa.

The second excerpt contains descriptions of military ventures undertaken by Sultan Nâsir-ud dîn Mahmûd, who governed the Delhi sultanate from 1246-1266 CE, and who was a son of Sultan Îltutmish. These ventures were undertaken by his general and successor Ghiyas-ud-dîn Balban, who prior to his reign was commonly called Ulugh Khan. He was noted for his extreme brutality. This was particularly manifest during the campaigns against the Hindus of the Doab undertaken in 1258-59 CE, and the campaign against the Meos south of Delhi in 1260 CE. The latter expedition, and the ghastly torture and murder of the prisoners he undertook, are described herein. He gradually gained de facto rule under Nâsir-ud dîn Mahmûd, who nominated him as his successor. He ruled from 1266 through 1286 CE.

2. Excerpts

Contents



1. Muhammad Bakhtiyar’s assault on Bihar

2. Events during the reign of Sultan Îltutmish

3. Events during the reign of Sultan Nâsir-ud dîn Mahmûd



1.

[p. 53]

Malik Ghazi Ikhtiyaru-D Din Muhammad Bakhtiyar Khilji, Of Lakhnauti

It is related that this Muhammad Bakhtiyar was a Khil-ji, of Ghor, of the province of Garmsir. He was a very smart, enterprising, bold, courageous, wise and experienced man. He left his tribe and came to the Court of Sultan Mu’izzu-d din, at Ghaznin, and was placed in the diwan-i ‘arz (office for petitions), but as the chief of that department was not satisfied with him he was dismissed, and proceeded from Ghaznin to Hindustan. When he reached the Court of Delhi, he was again rejected by the chief of the dilvan-i `arz of the city, and so he went [p. 54] on to Badaun, into the service of Hizbaru-d din Hasan, commander-in-Chief, where he obtained a suitable position. After some time he went to Oudh in the service of Malik Hisamu-d din Ughlabak. He had good horses and arms, and he had showed much activity and valour at many places, so he obtained Sahlat and Sahli1 in Jagir. Being a bold and enterprising man he used to make incursions into the districts of Muni (Monghir), and Behar, and bring away much plunder until in this manner he obtained plenty of horses, arms, and men. The fame of his bravery and of his plundering raids spread abroad, and a body of Khiljis joined him from Hindustan. His exploits were reported to Sultan Kutbu-d din, and he sent him a dress and showed him great honour. Being thus encouraged, he led his army to Behar and ravaged it. In this manner he continued for a year or two to plunder the neighbourhood, and at last prepared to invade the country.

It is said by credible persons that he went to the gate of the fort of Behar with only two hundred horse, and began the war by taking the enemy unawares. In the service of Bakhtiyar there were two brothers of great intelligence. One of them was named Nizamu-d din and the other Shamsu-d din. The compiler of this book met Samsu-d din at Lakhnauti in the year 641 H. (1243 A.D.) and heard the following story from him. When Bakhtiyar reached the gate of the fort and fighting began, these two wise brothers were active in that army of heroes. Muhammad Bakhtiyar with great vigour and audacity rushed in at the gate of the fort and gained possession of the place. Great plunder fell into the hands of the victors. Most of the inhabitants of the place were Brahmans with shaven heads. They were put to death. Large numbers of books were found there, and when the Muhammadans saw them they called for some persons [p. 55] to explain their contents, but all the men had been killed. It was discovered that the whole fort and city was a place of study (madrasa). In the Hindi language the word Behar (vihar) means a college.

Re: Umer Murtaza # 214

Roman Christians did not burn the Great Library at Alexanderia. It was burned, accidently, by the fire started by the Roman legions of Julius Caius Caesar on his orders, when he was fighting a civil war in order to consolidate his power in Rome.

Ciao

Stuka #208: Shankar is too easy a target. I just have to keep him honest, every now and then, to make sure he doesn`t start getting too big for his britches..... :)

shammi # 205: ?.

I fail to understand what you are trying to get to. Are you attempting to be sarcastic?

Could you point to anyone from the PAF who has ``appropriated`` power. And why would an Indian be concerned with that, anyways?

semipreciousme #191 So your eagle eyes spotted the telltale use of the Redcoat ``u`` in ``neighbours`` by Ferishtah and you write ``you were born and bred in america but use british spellings??``

So, Ferishteh I hope will explain this (to put it gently) ``simplifying exaggeration`` and tell us that actually she came to the US as a college student but it FEELS like she was born here? And will she thereby remove any doubt that she is living up to this unfortunate stereotype Iranian people have with some people in Pakistan that our great neighbors (oops, I meant neigbours)to the west are given (putting it gently again) to making a certain degree of exaggeration? I wonder.

suxena #206, ``...don`t worry about scout`s rudeness...most chowkies know she`s little kookoo in the head...``

excuse me jerk, did i give you permission to write my name?

i think not.

Romair,

correction:

With all respect, may I point out that no one disrespects the people who serve their country with honor and dignity, and of course military service people deserve respect.

Universities and hospitals were concepts conceived and executed by the Muslims. As for the Buddhists, I`m reminded of the lie by a Christian friend of mine that the party of Omar burnt the libraries of Alexandria, whereas it was in fact the Christian Romans. Similarly, an individual, whom I had previously advised to drench his women`s saris to conserve the petrol, is now accusing my faith for something when his own was responsible for massacring and forcing the Buddhists into its fold.

Talk about the dravidian calling the kettle black.

Umer M

Romair,

With all respect, may I point out that no one respects the people who serve their country with honor and dignity, and of course military service people deserve that respect. However, let us not rob them of the choice they made to join the military-and specific monetary and social/political gains are part of the benefits many military people have access to. They are responsible for understanding the meanings of that choice.

So too, are writers and protesters aware of the meanings and risks of their choices. They are aware of being imprisoned for much of their lives and at the mercy of a corrupt judicial system. They are also aware that many people do not care that they are willing to risk their lives for a principle and engage in their battles without guns, troops, military institutional support or even institutionalized recognition. And they also complete actions that they feel are for the greater good of their people, against a more insidious and internal enemy.