Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan
Asad Zaidi July 3, 2002
#271 Posted by harimau on July 28, 2002 12:01:47 pm
Ref Prof. Hobbs #: 268
[Harimanu
You say to me ``How about some questions that YOU can choose to answer?``
My answer to YOU: ``I choose not to answer, but good questions``
happy? No? try to live up to your promise to wait for answers - they will come, but you gotta wait.]
I guess if I accept your religious beliefs, I might have to wait till Judgment Day whereas according to my beliefs, I will have to wait until I finish several re-incarnations. And even then, Hell is not likely to freeze over!
Ah well, you can`t say I didn`t give you or Mullah321 an escape clause. The curse of the Hindus: they are always so nice to their opponents!
[Harimanu
You say to me ``How about some questions that YOU can choose to answer?``
My answer to YOU: ``I choose not to answer, but good questions``
happy? No? try to live up to your promise to wait for answers - they will come, but you gotta wait.]
I guess if I accept your religious beliefs, I might have to wait till Judgment Day whereas according to my beliefs, I will have to wait until I finish several re-incarnations. And even then, Hell is not likely to freeze over!
Ah well, you can`t say I didn`t give you or Mullah321 an escape clause. The curse of the Hindus: they are always so nice to their opponents!
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#270 Posted by rsridhar on July 26, 2002 10:48:18 pm
re: Reply #: 241
Ashok,
The url works perfectly. Anyway, i am posting the entire article:
``Nalanda - The Ancient City of Knowledge
By PRANAV KHULLAR
Nalanda, like Rome, was not built in a day. It took several centuries to evolve, diversify and extend its civilizing influence not only to all corners of the country but to lands as distant as China, Japan, Malaysia, Java, Sumatra, Korea, Nepal and Tibet. Originally a mango-grove called Pavarika in the village Bargoan in Bihar, the place was sanctified by the Sakyamuni (Gautam Buddha) himself when the Enlightened One broke journey here to halt and rest, not once but several times. Ashoka built a Vihara (monastery) here and Harsha made it possible for a thousand scholars to delve deep into a hundred disciplines everyday in its numerous halls and more numerous temples.
Contemporary eye-witness accounts testify that there were so many Viharas around Nalanda, Rajgriha and Vikramsila that the whole area was called Bihara, from which the present day Indian state of Bihar derives its name. The transformation of Nalanda Vihara into the Nalanda university was the result of a rich heritage which helped it become an international center of education and culture. Nalanda stood for freedom in learning, thought, expression and action.
This heritage was both non-Buddhist and Buddhist. While the former included the Vedas and the Puranas, the latter consisted of works such as Vinay Pitaka, Dhammapada, Abhidhamma and Majhima Nikaya, with excellent commentaries by scholars such as Nagarjuna, Maiteriya, Asanga, Vasubandhu and Dinnaga, who defined and refined Buddhism in its various facets and dispensations. Nalanda, therefore, honoured thought and men of thought in the best of Indian traditions.
Nalanda was a residential university like so many others in those times, such as Taxila, Ujjaini, Vallabhi, Vikramsila and Amravati.
Yet, it was a university with a difference. The Gate Keepers of Nalanda were scholars of the highest repute, well versed in their subjects and drawn from the best in the country to examine the fresh entrants at the Gate itself. This was a novel method of ‘Entrance Examination’ and deserves admiration when we consider the historical context of Nalanda’s period.
The Gate Examination was very tough. Seven or eight scholars out of every ten were unsuccessful. So the scholars came to the gates of Nalanda again and again, till they were selected. It must have been an extraordinary spectacle to see these scholars, from all parts of the world assemble at Nalanda seeking admission. Merit alone was the criteria and even the Vice Chancellor had no discretion.
There are records of instances where scholars either belonging to or patronized by royal families were rejected, in spite of the fact that the expenses of Nalanda were met with from royal grants of village revenues. There is evidence that the revenues of several villages were granted to Nalanda, for the maintenance of its hostels and the administration of its temples and Viharas.
Several Chinese scholars and monks visited, studied and taught at Nalanda. Their memoirs are a rich and authentic source for the reconstruction of academic life at Nalanda. According to one such scholar-monk, I-Tsing, the minimum age for admission to Nalanda was 20 years. This indicates that scholars who had already passed out from some other university were admitted to Nalanda to pursue higher knowledge.
We also have the evidence from Hiuen Tsang, the Chinese pilgrim who came to Nalanda in the days of the “Good King” Harsha. He confirms that “learned men from different cities, who desire to acquire renown in discussion, come (to Nalanda) in multitudes to settle their doubts.” The Gate-Keepers of Nalanda were in fact, the Gate-Keepers of India’s knowledge, her culture and heritage. Anyone was welcome for an open discussion on any aspect of religion, philosophy, law and life.
To be admitted to this great center of learning was a matter of great pride and prestige. Its multi-disciplinary approach to learning attracted students from far off lands. Although the subject of theology was compulsory, Nalanda was not a sectarian or a religious university imparting only Buddhist thought; other subjects were taught as fervently.
Almost all sciences, including the science of medicine were taught. So were the Upanishads and the Vedas. Panini’s grammar, the science of pronunciation (Phonetics), etymology, Indology and Yoga were all included in the curricula. Surprisingly, even archery was taught. Hiuen Tsang himself learnt Yogasastra from Jayasena. When King Harsha requested Shilabhadra to send four learned scholars to Orissa to debate with the heretics, Hiuen Tsang was chosen to be one of them.
Hiuen Tsang, who stayed at the university for 17 years, first as a student and later as a professor under the Master, Shilabhadra, came to India via the Gobi desert and entered Kashmir through the Himalayas.
At Nalanda, he was received at the Gate with a thousand lamps, his erudition and reputation having travelled faster than him. Here he studied to obtain the degree of Master of Law and became the Vice-Principal of this great University. The head of the University was called ‘Pandita’ and Shilabhadra occupied this position when Hieun Tsang came to join as a student. In no time, the new entrant rose in the estimates of Shilabhadra who sent him out on difficult assignments involving long and perilous journeys.
According to Hieun Tsang’s description, the daily schedule at Nalanda was packed with rituals. The day began with a call for the morning bath. It seems that a morning bath was compulsory for every inmate; at least it was obligatory to bathe at the prescribed hour. The bath was followed by the ablution of the holy image of Buddha, by furnishing heaps of flowers and incense, a fairly prolonged ritual accompanied by recitation of stotras and singing of hymns. Afterwards, the inmates had their meagre breakfast.
Thereafter, they went to their respective halls for discussion. In the afternoon, another ritual called ‘Caitya Vandana’ was held, wherein priests assembled at the main mate of the monastery and sang songs in praise of Sakyamuni. They could go out in the evenings and the night was meant for repose.
Knowledge of Sanskrit was essential and it meant having a complete mastery over Sanskrit grammar, literature and correct pronunciation. The method of teaching was tutorial followed by discussions.
Listening to the discussions was education. It is extraordinary that the discussions continued throughout the day and, indeed, the night. Nalanda scholars never tired of discussions; rather, they welcomed them. Hieun Tsang was deeply impressed with the discipline at Nalanda. In its existence of about 700 years at the time of his visit, there had not been a single case of any strike or disturbance or even commotion (except intellectual ferment) at the University. Besides, there were discourses open to all where all subjects from life to death were discussed.
According to I-Tsing: “They arrange every day about hundred pulpits for preaching, and the students attend these discourses without fail, even for a minute.” There was no writing work for Nalanda scholars except the copying of manuscripts and texts. It may be recalled that both Hiuen Tsang and I-Tsing carried huge loads of such texts back to China upon their return.
Nalanda was an example of the Guru-Shishya parampara, a great Indian tradition. The authority of the Guru teacher) over the shishya (student) was absolute, and yet, dissent was permitted in academic matters. The tradition, although going back thousands of years, flourished at Nalanda more than elsewhere.
Describing the Guru-Shishya relationship, I-Tsing says: “He (Shishya) goes to the teacher at the first watch and at the last watch in the night. First the teacher bids him to sit down comfortably. Selecting some passages from Tripatakas, he gives a lesson in a way that suits the circumstances and does not leave any fact or theory unexplained. He inspects his pupil’s moral conduct, and warns him of defects and transgressions. Whenever he finds his pupil at fault, he makes him seek remedies and repent. The pupil rubs the teacher’s body, folds his clothes and sometimes sweeps the apartment and the yard. Then having examined the water to ensure there are no insects in it, he gives it to his teacher. Thus, if there is anything to be done, he does all on behalf of the teacher.” No fees of any kind were charged at Nalanda for the studies. No price was paid for food or clothes or accommodation. There was no punishment of any kind.
For the faults or the defects of the students, the teachers punished themselves. The teacher-pupil relation was like that of the father and his son. The greatest delight and the highest reward of the teacher came when his pupil outshone him. Sakyamuni had even laid down detailed duties and responsibilities of the teachers and the pupils, from early morning till might when the teacher went to sleep. In the words of Gautama the Buddha, “the pupil is also to act as a check, as it were, upon the preceptor, in keeping him steadfast in the faith.”
The fall of Nalanda at the hands of the Turks is a story too deep for tears. The City of Knowledge, which took several centuries to build, took only a few hours to be destroyed. Legend has it that when some monks fell at the feet of the invaders to spare at least its world-famed library, Ratnabodhi, they were thrown in the fire along with the books. The rest fled, and Nalanda was relegated to a memory. Thus ended the story of Nalanda till it was re-told first by Hamilton and later by Alexander Cunningham. The excavations started in 1915 and continued for twenty years. Yet much remains to be done. At the Nav Nalanda Mahavihara, which stands close to this ancient site, Sakyamuni seems to beckon all men of knowledge to restore the glory of this greatest center of learning of the yore.``
There is no controversy among scholars as to the existence of this university. Much of what existed was destroyed by invaders. A lot of what transpired was kept alive by word of mouth and written later by Arab/muslim historians. Do you doubt if truth can be kept alive by word of mouth? The greatest eg in front of you is the vedas which were kept alive by sages throughout the remote past by a process of transmission by an ``oral tradition``. Much later, it was committed to a written form. Only much later.
Sridhar
Ashok,
The url works perfectly. Anyway, i am posting the entire article:
``Nalanda - The Ancient City of Knowledge
By PRANAV KHULLAR
Nalanda, like Rome, was not built in a day. It took several centuries to evolve, diversify and extend its civilizing influence not only to all corners of the country but to lands as distant as China, Japan, Malaysia, Java, Sumatra, Korea, Nepal and Tibet. Originally a mango-grove called Pavarika in the village Bargoan in Bihar, the place was sanctified by the Sakyamuni (Gautam Buddha) himself when the Enlightened One broke journey here to halt and rest, not once but several times. Ashoka built a Vihara (monastery) here and Harsha made it possible for a thousand scholars to delve deep into a hundred disciplines everyday in its numerous halls and more numerous temples.
Contemporary eye-witness accounts testify that there were so many Viharas around Nalanda, Rajgriha and Vikramsila that the whole area was called Bihara, from which the present day Indian state of Bihar derives its name. The transformation of Nalanda Vihara into the Nalanda university was the result of a rich heritage which helped it become an international center of education and culture. Nalanda stood for freedom in learning, thought, expression and action.
This heritage was both non-Buddhist and Buddhist. While the former included the Vedas and the Puranas, the latter consisted of works such as Vinay Pitaka, Dhammapada, Abhidhamma and Majhima Nikaya, with excellent commentaries by scholars such as Nagarjuna, Maiteriya, Asanga, Vasubandhu and Dinnaga, who defined and refined Buddhism in its various facets and dispensations. Nalanda, therefore, honoured thought and men of thought in the best of Indian traditions.
Nalanda was a residential university like so many others in those times, such as Taxila, Ujjaini, Vallabhi, Vikramsila and Amravati.
Yet, it was a university with a difference. The Gate Keepers of Nalanda were scholars of the highest repute, well versed in their subjects and drawn from the best in the country to examine the fresh entrants at the Gate itself. This was a novel method of ‘Entrance Examination’ and deserves admiration when we consider the historical context of Nalanda’s period.
The Gate Examination was very tough. Seven or eight scholars out of every ten were unsuccessful. So the scholars came to the gates of Nalanda again and again, till they were selected. It must have been an extraordinary spectacle to see these scholars, from all parts of the world assemble at Nalanda seeking admission. Merit alone was the criteria and even the Vice Chancellor had no discretion.
There are records of instances where scholars either belonging to or patronized by royal families were rejected, in spite of the fact that the expenses of Nalanda were met with from royal grants of village revenues. There is evidence that the revenues of several villages were granted to Nalanda, for the maintenance of its hostels and the administration of its temples and Viharas.
Several Chinese scholars and monks visited, studied and taught at Nalanda. Their memoirs are a rich and authentic source for the reconstruction of academic life at Nalanda. According to one such scholar-monk, I-Tsing, the minimum age for admission to Nalanda was 20 years. This indicates that scholars who had already passed out from some other university were admitted to Nalanda to pursue higher knowledge.
We also have the evidence from Hiuen Tsang, the Chinese pilgrim who came to Nalanda in the days of the “Good King” Harsha. He confirms that “learned men from different cities, who desire to acquire renown in discussion, come (to Nalanda) in multitudes to settle their doubts.” The Gate-Keepers of Nalanda were in fact, the Gate-Keepers of India’s knowledge, her culture and heritage. Anyone was welcome for an open discussion on any aspect of religion, philosophy, law and life.
To be admitted to this great center of learning was a matter of great pride and prestige. Its multi-disciplinary approach to learning attracted students from far off lands. Although the subject of theology was compulsory, Nalanda was not a sectarian or a religious university imparting only Buddhist thought; other subjects were taught as fervently.
Almost all sciences, including the science of medicine were taught. So were the Upanishads and the Vedas. Panini’s grammar, the science of pronunciation (Phonetics), etymology, Indology and Yoga were all included in the curricula. Surprisingly, even archery was taught. Hiuen Tsang himself learnt Yogasastra from Jayasena. When King Harsha requested Shilabhadra to send four learned scholars to Orissa to debate with the heretics, Hiuen Tsang was chosen to be one of them.
Hiuen Tsang, who stayed at the university for 17 years, first as a student and later as a professor under the Master, Shilabhadra, came to India via the Gobi desert and entered Kashmir through the Himalayas.
At Nalanda, he was received at the Gate with a thousand lamps, his erudition and reputation having travelled faster than him. Here he studied to obtain the degree of Master of Law and became the Vice-Principal of this great University. The head of the University was called ‘Pandita’ and Shilabhadra occupied this position when Hieun Tsang came to join as a student. In no time, the new entrant rose in the estimates of Shilabhadra who sent him out on difficult assignments involving long and perilous journeys.
According to Hieun Tsang’s description, the daily schedule at Nalanda was packed with rituals. The day began with a call for the morning bath. It seems that a morning bath was compulsory for every inmate; at least it was obligatory to bathe at the prescribed hour. The bath was followed by the ablution of the holy image of Buddha, by furnishing heaps of flowers and incense, a fairly prolonged ritual accompanied by recitation of stotras and singing of hymns. Afterwards, the inmates had their meagre breakfast.
Thereafter, they went to their respective halls for discussion. In the afternoon, another ritual called ‘Caitya Vandana’ was held, wherein priests assembled at the main mate of the monastery and sang songs in praise of Sakyamuni. They could go out in the evenings and the night was meant for repose.
Knowledge of Sanskrit was essential and it meant having a complete mastery over Sanskrit grammar, literature and correct pronunciation. The method of teaching was tutorial followed by discussions.
Listening to the discussions was education. It is extraordinary that the discussions continued throughout the day and, indeed, the night. Nalanda scholars never tired of discussions; rather, they welcomed them. Hieun Tsang was deeply impressed with the discipline at Nalanda. In its existence of about 700 years at the time of his visit, there had not been a single case of any strike or disturbance or even commotion (except intellectual ferment) at the University. Besides, there were discourses open to all where all subjects from life to death were discussed.
According to I-Tsing: “They arrange every day about hundred pulpits for preaching, and the students attend these discourses without fail, even for a minute.” There was no writing work for Nalanda scholars except the copying of manuscripts and texts. It may be recalled that both Hiuen Tsang and I-Tsing carried huge loads of such texts back to China upon their return.
Nalanda was an example of the Guru-Shishya parampara, a great Indian tradition. The authority of the Guru teacher) over the shishya (student) was absolute, and yet, dissent was permitted in academic matters. The tradition, although going back thousands of years, flourished at Nalanda more than elsewhere.
Describing the Guru-Shishya relationship, I-Tsing says: “He (Shishya) goes to the teacher at the first watch and at the last watch in the night. First the teacher bids him to sit down comfortably. Selecting some passages from Tripatakas, he gives a lesson in a way that suits the circumstances and does not leave any fact or theory unexplained. He inspects his pupil’s moral conduct, and warns him of defects and transgressions. Whenever he finds his pupil at fault, he makes him seek remedies and repent. The pupil rubs the teacher’s body, folds his clothes and sometimes sweeps the apartment and the yard. Then having examined the water to ensure there are no insects in it, he gives it to his teacher. Thus, if there is anything to be done, he does all on behalf of the teacher.” No fees of any kind were charged at Nalanda for the studies. No price was paid for food or clothes or accommodation. There was no punishment of any kind.
For the faults or the defects of the students, the teachers punished themselves. The teacher-pupil relation was like that of the father and his son. The greatest delight and the highest reward of the teacher came when his pupil outshone him. Sakyamuni had even laid down detailed duties and responsibilities of the teachers and the pupils, from early morning till might when the teacher went to sleep. In the words of Gautama the Buddha, “the pupil is also to act as a check, as it were, upon the preceptor, in keeping him steadfast in the faith.”
The fall of Nalanda at the hands of the Turks is a story too deep for tears. The City of Knowledge, which took several centuries to build, took only a few hours to be destroyed. Legend has it that when some monks fell at the feet of the invaders to spare at least its world-famed library, Ratnabodhi, they were thrown in the fire along with the books. The rest fled, and Nalanda was relegated to a memory. Thus ended the story of Nalanda till it was re-told first by Hamilton and later by Alexander Cunningham. The excavations started in 1915 and continued for twenty years. Yet much remains to be done. At the Nav Nalanda Mahavihara, which stands close to this ancient site, Sakyamuni seems to beckon all men of knowledge to restore the glory of this greatest center of learning of the yore.``
There is no controversy among scholars as to the existence of this university. Much of what existed was destroyed by invaders. A lot of what transpired was kept alive by word of mouth and written later by Arab/muslim historians. Do you doubt if truth can be kept alive by word of mouth? The greatest eg in front of you is the vedas which were kept alive by sages throughout the remote past by a process of transmission by an ``oral tradition``. Much later, it was committed to a written form. Only much later.
Sridhar
#269 Posted by anNy on July 26, 2002 2:02:52 pm
gentlemne..can we please stop being nasty..itna acha mausam, itnee buree batain..please smile and make up
ana!
your ma sounds wonderful..mine is a cutie, gets all red in the face and goes shhhhh, hushhhhhhh if i or my sibling get adventurous with our french though mine is severely limited due to a most irritatingly boring upbringing and shareef ghar ka mahole..please please feel free to make up for my deprived childhood
ana!
your ma sounds wonderful..mine is a cutie, gets all red in the face and goes shhhhh, hushhhhhhh if i or my sibling get adventurous with our french though mine is severely limited due to a most irritatingly boring upbringing and shareef ghar ka mahole..please please feel free to make up for my deprived childhood
#268 Posted by harimau on July 26, 2002 2:02:52 pm
Ref ana #: 271
[harimau..
hasbe maa`mool, your slip of ignorance is showing..jaldi se chupa do ussko, ek dum futafut!]
I am posing my questions to Mullah321 and Hobbyty from the safety of India. I realize if I step into the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, I will get condemned to death for blasphemy but then I have no plans to visit that paradise on earth.
[harimau..
hasbe maa`mool, your slip of ignorance is showing..jaldi se chupa do ussko, ek dum futafut!]
I am posing my questions to Mullah321 and Hobbyty from the safety of India. I realize if I step into the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, I will get condemned to death for blasphemy but then I have no plans to visit that paradise on earth.
#267 Posted by harimau on July 26, 2002 2:02:52 pm
Ref brain-dead mo-fo #: 269
[{{That is why, after one of my posts, most of you shut up for a while, trying to get to a stage where you can sit in front of a computer to type a response.}}
HAHA!! Dont flatter yourself, mofo...we need some time to throw up after reading your posts....& you think its because we agree with you.!!...WHAT A BUTTHEAD!!]
Did I SAY you agreed with me?
All I said was, after I shove a red-hot poker up ypur butt, you shut up for a while, trying to get to a stage where you can sit in front of a computer to type a response.
Let us see if you understand it at least this time.
[{{That is why, after one of my posts, most of you shut up for a while, trying to get to a stage where you can sit in front of a computer to type a response.}}
HAHA!! Dont flatter yourself, mofo...we need some time to throw up after reading your posts....& you think its because we agree with you.!!...WHAT A BUTTHEAD!!]
Did I SAY you agreed with me?
All I said was, after I shove a red-hot poker up ypur butt, you shut up for a while, trying to get to a stage where you can sit in front of a computer to type a response.
Let us see if you understand it at least this time.
#266 Posted by ana on July 25, 2002 4:57:50 pm
harimau..
hasbe maa`mool, your slip of ignorance is showing..jaldi se chupa do ussko, ek dum futafut!
hasbe maa`mool, your slip of ignorance is showing..jaldi se chupa do ussko, ek dum futafut!
#265 Posted by harimau on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
Ref headshrinker #: 267
[{{Did you like me calling you a gigolo?}}
I LOVED it! Esp that it gave me a chance to call your mind sick & perverted...! ]
Everyone on the board notices how you are unable to back up your statement that I spout hindutva propaganda from RSS.
What a loser!
[{{Did you like me calling you a gigolo?}}
I LOVED it! Esp that it gave me a chance to call your mind sick & perverted...! ]
Everyone on the board notices how you are unable to back up your statement that I spout hindutva propaganda from RSS.
What a loser!
#264 Posted by shankar on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
harimou,
{{That is why, after one of my posts, most of you shut up for a while, trying to get to a stage where you can sit in front of a computer to type a response.}}
HAHA!! Dont flatter yourself, mofo...we need some time to throw up after reading your posts....& you think its because we agree with you.!!...WHAT A BUTTHEAD!!
{{That is why, after one of my posts, most of you shut up for a while, trying to get to a stage where you can sit in front of a computer to type a response.}}
HAHA!! Dont flatter yourself, mofo...we need some time to throw up after reading your posts....& you think its because we agree with you.!!...WHAT A BUTTHEAD!!
#263 Posted by hobbyty on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
Harimanu
You say to me ``How about some questions that YOU can choose to answer?``
My answer to YOU: ``I choose not to answer, but good questions``
happy? No? try to live up to your promise to wait for answers - they will come, but you gotta wait.
You say to me ``How about some questions that YOU can choose to answer?``
My answer to YOU: ``I choose not to answer, but good questions``
happy? No? try to live up to your promise to wait for answers - they will come, but you gotta wait.
#262 Posted by shankar on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
harimou,
{{Did you like me calling you a gigolo?}}
I LOVED it! Esp that it gave me a chance to call your mind sick & perverted...!
{{Did you like me calling you a gigolo?}}
I LOVED it! Esp that it gave me a chance to call your mind sick & perverted...!
#261 Posted by harimau on July 24, 2002 11:18:12 am
Ref hobbyty #: 262
Another question for you.
Is APJ Abdul Kalam, newly elected President of India, a True Muslim? He doesn`t speak Arabic or Urdu, doesn`t wear a salwar-kameez or a djellaba, and helped develop missiles specifically to target the ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan (according to you all). Can Abdul Kalam be a True Muslim, particularly when his friend from his home towm brought him prasad from the local Hindu temple?
Or, should I pose the question to fatwa-online.com?
Another question for you.
Is APJ Abdul Kalam, newly elected President of India, a True Muslim? He doesn`t speak Arabic or Urdu, doesn`t wear a salwar-kameez or a djellaba, and helped develop missiles specifically to target the ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan (according to you all). Can Abdul Kalam be a True Muslim, particularly when his friend from his home towm brought him prasad from the local Hindu temple?
Or, should I pose the question to fatwa-online.com?
#260 Posted by harimau on July 24, 2002 11:18:12 am
Ref Mullah321 #: 248
[harimau #234 I dont discuss things with a hindutva rat. I am content to call him a rat, and he can call me swine in return. No problem.]
However, I notice that you get into major discussions with Mr. Sattar on Qadiani beliefs.
What ARE you doing in your spare time... assemblimg a mob to stone to death any passing Qadiani?
[harimau #234 I dont discuss things with a hindutva rat. I am content to call him a rat, and he can call me swine in return. No problem.]
However, I notice that you get into major discussions with Mr. Sattar on Qadiani beliefs.
What ARE you doing in your spare time... assemblimg a mob to stone to death any passing Qadiani?
#259 Posted by harimau on July 24, 2002 11:18:12 am
Ref hobbyty #: 262
[It is too soon for me to conclude that you cannot wait till hell freezes over for an answer, and are therefore not a man of your word. All are deserving of redemption, and with this realization, it is only fair to give every opportunity to fulfill your promise to wait.]
How about some questions that YOU can choose to answer?
Were Prophet Muhammad`s parents Muslims?
Was Prophet Muhammad circumcised?
At what age did Prophet Muhammad become a Muslim?
[It is too soon for me to conclude that you cannot wait till hell freezes over for an answer, and are therefore not a man of your word. All are deserving of redemption, and with this realization, it is only fair to give every opportunity to fulfill your promise to wait.]
How about some questions that YOU can choose to answer?
Were Prophet Muhammad`s parents Muslims?
Was Prophet Muhammad circumcised?
At what age did Prophet Muhammad become a Muslim?
#258 Posted by harimau on July 24, 2002 11:18:12 am
Ref janitor #: 256
[its not GOOD knowlege...its selective propaganda of hate & mistrust that RSS types like him highlight, as if `Islam` or `muslims` was the main cause for the downfall of hindus & the hindu civilisation...He`s true blue blooded RSS--make no mistakes about it...even if he pretends he`s not or he`s fair & balanced (hah)...]
Did I quote even ONCE from VHP/RSS/BJP/Bajrang Dal propaganda sheets? Have I not given references to books (including page numbers) by Western authors when I quote something? Why don`t YOU refute my factual statements instead of just calling them propaganda?
9its the ``hindus are victims`` mentality that shoves a hot poker up his butt all the time...the worst part is that he feels he`s JUSTIFIED to have that poker up his butt!!:) ]
I actually CARRY a red-hot poker in my hand and shove it up the butt of people like YLH, Sudalaikkannu, Mullah321, yourself, Urstruly, and 12-head. That is why, after one of my posts, most of you shut up for a while, trying to get to a stage where you can sit in front of a computer to type a response.
[Truth be told, the hindu civilisation (like every civilisation that is on the downswing) was beset by very shameful social problems..:unequality, caste system etc etc & terrible social practices that turned a lot of people off from that religion.]
Good. How about going up to Detroit, meeting with Urstruly, going to the Detroit Mosque and getting your dick cut off? While there, you might want to know the mullah`s position on hairy vs. shaved pits.
[Even if ``forced`` conversions take place...please give some credit to the person who is ``converted`` by the point of a sword...its like forcing Communism on someone..it wont take hold if that person hates Communism..
Evidently, right, wrong or indifferent (depending upon the person`s point of view).. Islam took FIRM hold in India..it WOULD``NT have..if it didnt appeal to the ``forced convertees``!]
Be a voluntary convert. We need to get rid of trash like you.
[so hairmou,
ordinarily you are such an obnoxious, disagreeable a$$hole, that i dont even waste my breath on a creature like you, anymore...but since i`m, right now, in a mood to waste my breath on you...let me RESPECTFULLY remind you what i`ve said to you again & again, in the past...but somehow that message doesnt seem to penetrate through your oily skull...]
So, what was this post, if not a waste of your time?
[So...thankyou & keep up the good work...either do me a HUGE favor & scram from Chowk....or..if you choose to stay (which, ofcourse, is your perogative); please do continue with your insults ESP to me!......I assure you, it MAKES my day...the sun shines brighter & the birds sing more sweetly when you do!...]
Did you like me calling you a gigolo?
[its not GOOD knowlege...its selective propaganda of hate & mistrust that RSS types like him highlight, as if `Islam` or `muslims` was the main cause for the downfall of hindus & the hindu civilisation...He`s true blue blooded RSS--make no mistakes about it...even if he pretends he`s not or he`s fair & balanced (hah)...]
Did I quote even ONCE from VHP/RSS/BJP/Bajrang Dal propaganda sheets? Have I not given references to books (including page numbers) by Western authors when I quote something? Why don`t YOU refute my factual statements instead of just calling them propaganda?
9its the ``hindus are victims`` mentality that shoves a hot poker up his butt all the time...the worst part is that he feels he`s JUSTIFIED to have that poker up his butt!!:) ]
I actually CARRY a red-hot poker in my hand and shove it up the butt of people like YLH, Sudalaikkannu, Mullah321, yourself, Urstruly, and 12-head. That is why, after one of my posts, most of you shut up for a while, trying to get to a stage where you can sit in front of a computer to type a response.
[Truth be told, the hindu civilisation (like every civilisation that is on the downswing) was beset by very shameful social problems..:unequality, caste system etc etc & terrible social practices that turned a lot of people off from that religion.]
Good. How about going up to Detroit, meeting with Urstruly, going to the Detroit Mosque and getting your dick cut off? While there, you might want to know the mullah`s position on hairy vs. shaved pits.
[Even if ``forced`` conversions take place...please give some credit to the person who is ``converted`` by the point of a sword...its like forcing Communism on someone..it wont take hold if that person hates Communism..
Evidently, right, wrong or indifferent (depending upon the person`s point of view).. Islam took FIRM hold in India..it WOULD``NT have..if it didnt appeal to the ``forced convertees``!]
Be a voluntary convert. We need to get rid of trash like you.
[so hairmou,
ordinarily you are such an obnoxious, disagreeable a$$hole, that i dont even waste my breath on a creature like you, anymore...but since i`m, right now, in a mood to waste my breath on you...let me RESPECTFULLY remind you what i`ve said to you again & again, in the past...but somehow that message doesnt seem to penetrate through your oily skull...]
So, what was this post, if not a waste of your time?
[So...thankyou & keep up the good work...either do me a HUGE favor & scram from Chowk....or..if you choose to stay (which, ofcourse, is your perogative); please do continue with your insults ESP to me!......I assure you, it MAKES my day...the sun shines brighter & the birds sing more sweetly when you do!...]
Did you like me calling you a gigolo?
#257 Posted by hobbyty on July 24, 2002 5:17:52 am
harimanu
It is too soon for me to conclude that you cannot wait till hell freezes over for an answer, and are therefore not a man of your word. All are deserving of redemption, and with this realization, it is only fair to give every opportunity to fulfill your promise to wait.
Is Hell really cold?
It is too soon for me to conclude that you cannot wait till hell freezes over for an answer, and are therefore not a man of your word. All are deserving of redemption, and with this realization, it is only fair to give every opportunity to fulfill your promise to wait.
Is Hell really cold?
#256 Posted by harimau on July 23, 2002 2:53:04 pm
Ref Prof. Hobbs #: 236
[harimanu claims he is prepared to wait till hell freezes over for your answers - Could I impose on you to allow the testing of harimanu claims of being able to wait - now, if only he could wait in silence.]
Nope, I won`t wait in silence.
So, tell me, did the Prophet shave his armpits or not? This seems to be a life-and-death question in Pakistan. Millions of Pakistanis could benefit from your answer and may not be prepared to wait till Hell freezes over.
[harimanu claims he is prepared to wait till hell freezes over for your answers - Could I impose on you to allow the testing of harimanu claims of being able to wait - now, if only he could wait in silence.]
Nope, I won`t wait in silence.
So, tell me, did the Prophet shave his armpits or not? This seems to be a life-and-death question in Pakistan. Millions of Pakistanis could benefit from your answer and may not be prepared to wait till Hell freezes over.
#255 Posted by harimau on July 23, 2002 2:53:04 pm
Ref 12-head-but-still-anencephalic #: 244
[What do you think Shatru Sinha is .]
Look above for the answer.
[So what you r saying that YLH,Hamidm,Saminashah ,TAhmed,are all HINDUS forced to keep Muslim names ?????]
YLH, a direct descendant of the Prophet Himself, and a Hamdani from Iran to boot, is a Hindu? What kind of calumny is that?
Ref Ashole #: 243, 242
Yaaaawn!
[What do you think Shatru Sinha is .]
Look above for the answer.
[So what you r saying that YLH,Hamidm,Saminashah ,TAhmed,are all HINDUS forced to keep Muslim names ?????]
YLH, a direct descendant of the Prophet Himself, and a Hamdani from Iran to boot, is a Hindu? What kind of calumny is that?
Ref Ashole #: 243, 242
Yaaaawn!
#254 Posted by hobbyty on July 23, 2002 2:53:04 pm
Shammi
The error of the method you employ, is common. You assume that since there are a great many choices, all choices must be the same.
You complain that I did not raise my voice on behalf of pandits, from which you determine that raising my voice of behalf of any other suggests that I lack objectivity. A more idiotic sense of logic, I hop e not to encounter. ``I like white`` does not mean I don`t like blue - nor does it put the burden of me, of liking the blue, nor is it a condition of liking white, to assert that one likes blue or not.
I yet you can tell the caste of persons by their name. Come clean, now, you know you can. I know you can.
#253 Posted by Anika Zaidi on July 23, 2002 2:53:04 pm
ITS LIKE SAYING TO A PASSER BY ``you abused me``
The passer by said ``no i just whispered ``salam``
Yea but i dont understand your language & i order you to ``REMOVE YOUR HATE LINGO``
SINCE WHEN A NON GOVT. ORGANIZATION NOT AN ELECTED REP. OF INDIANS ,HAVE THIS AUTHORITY, AUDACITY TO ORDER CHANGE ...Just like that ?
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_25040,0008.htm
VHP to Muslims: join in to remove hate lingo from texts
July 22
Sparking off yet another controversy, the VHP on Monday asked Muslims to join hands to remove from the religious texts of both communities ``portions which preach hatred against one another``.
``There can be permanent peace between Hindus and Muslims only if the religious texts are put together and portions which preach hatred are removed,`` VHP senior vice-president Acharya Giriraj Kishore told reporters here.
Kishore said he had made the suggestion during the recent meeting between the two communities held here under the aegis of the National Commission for Minorities.
The VHP leader said no amount of Sadbhavana Yatras or Sadbhavana Ke Sipahi (the Congress party`s soldiers of goodwill) or inter-faith meetings can bring about any change in Hindu-Muslim ties till ``the root cause (religious texts) is taken care of``.
RSS chief K S Sudarshan had earlier sparked off a controversy asking Muslims to reinterpret their religious texts and win the confidence of the majority community to ensure their safety.
The VHP had earlier demanded that Muslims re-interpret terms such as jihad (holy war), kafir (infidels) and Kufr (the philosophy behind the term Kafir).
The Sangh Parivar had also asked both Muslims and Christians to ``Indianise`` their faith.
Kishore wondered why the Muslims were particular about observing Shariat in civil matters and not in criminal law.
``They should decide whether they want to follow the Shariat or the law of the land,`` he said.
The passer by said ``no i just whispered ``salam``
Yea but i dont understand your language & i order you to ``REMOVE YOUR HATE LINGO``
SINCE WHEN A NON GOVT. ORGANIZATION NOT AN ELECTED REP. OF INDIANS ,HAVE THIS AUTHORITY, AUDACITY TO ORDER CHANGE ...Just like that ?
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_25040,0008.htm
VHP to Muslims: join in to remove hate lingo from texts
July 22
Sparking off yet another controversy, the VHP on Monday asked Muslims to join hands to remove from the religious texts of both communities ``portions which preach hatred against one another``.
``There can be permanent peace between Hindus and Muslims only if the religious texts are put together and portions which preach hatred are removed,`` VHP senior vice-president Acharya Giriraj Kishore told reporters here.
Kishore said he had made the suggestion during the recent meeting between the two communities held here under the aegis of the National Commission for Minorities.
The VHP leader said no amount of Sadbhavana Yatras or Sadbhavana Ke Sipahi (the Congress party`s soldiers of goodwill) or inter-faith meetings can bring about any change in Hindu-Muslim ties till ``the root cause (religious texts) is taken care of``.
RSS chief K S Sudarshan had earlier sparked off a controversy asking Muslims to reinterpret their religious texts and win the confidence of the majority community to ensure their safety.
The VHP had earlier demanded that Muslims re-interpret terms such as jihad (holy war), kafir (infidels) and Kufr (the philosophy behind the term Kafir).
The Sangh Parivar had also asked both Muslims and Christians to ``Indianise`` their faith.
Kishore wondered why the Muslims were particular about observing Shariat in civil matters and not in criminal law.
``They should decide whether they want to follow the Shariat or the law of the land,`` he said.
#252 Posted by krashid on July 23, 2002 2:53:04 pm
Dost Mittar #245
Life has been treating me good so far.
But I am in chowk now.
Life has been treating me good so far.
But I am in chowk now.
#251 Posted by shankar on July 23, 2002 2:53:04 pm
UmerM,
{{As with Harimau, despite the good knowledge that he possesses, the man has a hot poker up his a$$ all the time and he tends to hop, skip and jump to conclusions.}}
haha you are 90% right about him...i vehemently disagree with the part you say :
````despite the good knowledge that he possesses````
its not GOOD knowlege...its selective propaganda of hate & mistrust that RSS types like him highlight, as if `Islam` or `muslims` was the main cause for the downfall of hindus & the hindu civilisation...He`s true blue blooded RSS--make no mistakes about it...even if he pretends he`s not or he`s fair & balanced (hah)...
its the ``hindus are victims`` mentality that shoves a hot poker up his butt all the time...the worst part is that he feels he`s JUSTIFIED to have that poker up his butt!!:)
Truth be told, the hindu civilisation (like every civilisation that is on the downswing) was beset by very shameful social problems..:unequality, caste system etc etc & terrible social practices that turned a lot of people off from that religion.
Even if ``forced`` conversions take place...please give some credit to the person who is ``converted`` by the point of a sword...its like forcing Communism on someone..it wont take hold if that person hates Communism..
Evidently, right, wrong or indifferent (depending upon the person`s point of view).. Islam took FIRM hold in India..it WOULD``NT have..if it didnt appeal to the ``forced convertees``!
so hairmou,
ordinarily you are such an obnoxious, disagreeable a$$hole, that i dont even waste my breath on a creature like you, anymore...but since i`m, right now, in a mood to waste my breath on you...let me RESPECTFULLY remind you what i`ve said to you again & again, in the past...but somehow that message doesnt seem to penetrate through your oily skull...
the MORE a guy like you detests me, the PROUDER I feel that i`m on the RIGHT track in my life`s philosophy. The day I really will get hurt & drop DEAD with shame, is the day you actually compliment me!
So...thankyou & keep up the good work...either do me a HUGE favor & scram from Chowk....or..if you choose to stay (which, ofcourse, is your perogative); please do continue with your insults ESP to me!......I assure you, it MAKES my day...the sun shines brighter & the birds sing more sweetly when you do!...
{{As with Harimau, despite the good knowledge that he possesses, the man has a hot poker up his a$$ all the time and he tends to hop, skip and jump to conclusions.}}
haha you are 90% right about him...i vehemently disagree with the part you say :
````despite the good knowledge that he possesses````
its not GOOD knowlege...its selective propaganda of hate & mistrust that RSS types like him highlight, as if `Islam` or `muslims` was the main cause for the downfall of hindus & the hindu civilisation...He`s true blue blooded RSS--make no mistakes about it...even if he pretends he`s not or he`s fair & balanced (hah)...
its the ``hindus are victims`` mentality that shoves a hot poker up his butt all the time...the worst part is that he feels he`s JUSTIFIED to have that poker up his butt!!:)
Truth be told, the hindu civilisation (like every civilisation that is on the downswing) was beset by very shameful social problems..:unequality, caste system etc etc & terrible social practices that turned a lot of people off from that religion.
Even if ``forced`` conversions take place...please give some credit to the person who is ``converted`` by the point of a sword...its like forcing Communism on someone..it wont take hold if that person hates Communism..
Evidently, right, wrong or indifferent (depending upon the person`s point of view).. Islam took FIRM hold in India..it WOULD``NT have..if it didnt appeal to the ``forced convertees``!
so hairmou,
ordinarily you are such an obnoxious, disagreeable a$$hole, that i dont even waste my breath on a creature like you, anymore...but since i`m, right now, in a mood to waste my breath on you...let me RESPECTFULLY remind you what i`ve said to you again & again, in the past...but somehow that message doesnt seem to penetrate through your oily skull...
the MORE a guy like you detests me, the PROUDER I feel that i`m on the RIGHT track in my life`s philosophy. The day I really will get hurt & drop DEAD with shame, is the day you actually compliment me!
So...thankyou & keep up the good work...either do me a HUGE favor & scram from Chowk....or..if you choose to stay (which, ofcourse, is your perogative); please do continue with your insults ESP to me!......I assure you, it MAKES my day...the sun shines brighter & the birds sing more sweetly when you do!...
#250 Posted by Umer Murtaza on July 23, 2002 2:53:04 pm
Dear Roohi #251,
Thank you. That was lovely.
Umer M
Thank you. That was lovely.
Umer M
#247 Posted by rsaxena on July 22, 2002 2:55:35 pm
re: spout
{next time, when u`re not talking to me, please refrain from talking about me..i know you`re a bit obsessed but keep ur comments to urself....thanks }
...i`ll talk ABOUT whomever i want...last i checked, your gestapo were not controlling chowk...and you do have a functional scroll button...
{next time, when u`re not talking to me, please refrain from talking about me..i know you`re a bit obsessed but keep ur comments to urself....thanks }
...i`ll talk ABOUT whomever i want...last i checked, your gestapo were not controlling chowk...and you do have a functional scroll button...
#246 Posted by tahmed321 on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
harimau #234 I dont discuss things with a hindutva rat. I am content to call him a rat, and he can call me swine in return. No problem.
#245 Posted by roohi on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
Umer,
I did not mean to knock the Buddhism of Buddha in my earlier comment. Merely to say it was hard to follow - for individuals and societies in it`s original form at that point in history.
If you like buddhism and consider it part of your heritage like I do, here is a saying of The Buddha (aka the Buddhas ``Charter for free enquiry`` from the Kalama Sutta) to ponder -
``Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon bias towards a notion pondered over, nor upon another`s seeming ability, nor upon the consideration `The monk is our teacher.` When you yourselves know: `These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,` abandon them. When you yourselves know: `These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,` enter on and abide in them.``
Peace
I did not mean to knock the Buddhism of Buddha in my earlier comment. Merely to say it was hard to follow - for individuals and societies in it`s original form at that point in history.
If you like buddhism and consider it part of your heritage like I do, here is a saying of The Buddha (aka the Buddhas ``Charter for free enquiry`` from the Kalama Sutta) to ponder -
``Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon bias towards a notion pondered over, nor upon another`s seeming ability, nor upon the consideration `The monk is our teacher.` When you yourselves know: `These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,` abandon them. When you yourselves know: `These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,` enter on and abide in them.``
Peace
#244 Posted by MT on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
Umer M
I am deeply touched by the sufferings of your ancestors at the hands of the vile caste Hindus.
Man take my word , they are Kam Zat and they always behaved like that.
And that makes it from the frying pan into the fire for your presumed benighted ancestors.
I have always heard people claim that their ancestors were Brahmins or Rajpoots ot Jatts but no one has the candor that you have displayed.
I am glad that you realise the debt you owe the intersessors who interjected some wild oats.
Now to put facts right.
Firstly since you have pointed out that your ancestors were of low caste - I would assume that they must be of Dravidian extraction - what does that make you - Abdul?
Enough of that BS later.
Regd. Nalanda and Taxila , I think the Kam Zat Hindus conspired to destroy them so that the fair name of your intercessors was tarnished.
By the way lemme point this out. It did not require the sexual profligacy of holy men and warriors to emancipate lower castes in many parts of India. That awareness and awakening came out of Indians from the lower as well as upper strata and many are reaping the benefits of that.
India saw a President from the lowest caste . Can you see a Gujar or a Meghwal albeit a Muslim becoming part of the elected Govt leaders anytime soon in Pak zar zamin.
Abdul - MT could stand for Mohd. Tahir or Mathai Thomman or Manouch Tata.
I am deeply touched by the sufferings of your ancestors at the hands of the vile caste Hindus.
Man take my word , they are Kam Zat and they always behaved like that.
And that makes it from the frying pan into the fire for your presumed benighted ancestors.
I have always heard people claim that their ancestors were Brahmins or Rajpoots ot Jatts but no one has the candor that you have displayed.
I am glad that you realise the debt you owe the intersessors who interjected some wild oats.
Now to put facts right.
Firstly since you have pointed out that your ancestors were of low caste - I would assume that they must be of Dravidian extraction - what does that make you - Abdul?
Enough of that BS later.
Regd. Nalanda and Taxila , I think the Kam Zat Hindus conspired to destroy them so that the fair name of your intercessors was tarnished.
By the way lemme point this out. It did not require the sexual profligacy of holy men and warriors to emancipate lower castes in many parts of India. That awareness and awakening came out of Indians from the lower as well as upper strata and many are reaping the benefits of that.
India saw a President from the lowest caste . Can you see a Gujar or a Meghwal albeit a Muslim becoming part of the elected Govt leaders anytime soon in Pak zar zamin.
Abdul - MT could stand for Mohd. Tahir or Mathai Thomman or Manouch Tata.
#243 Posted by shammi on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
Re: Hobbyty
``...Since the first thing you notice is the religion of writers (an entirely secular affliction) blah blah Indian Hindu interactors blah blah...``
Ummm...actually no. The first thing that I notice is the objectivity of Chowk interactors -- that is the ability to call a spade a spade. Your selective culling of the facts laid bare your objectivity (or lack thereof).
``...Since the first thing you notice is the religion of writers (an entirely secular affliction) blah blah Indian Hindu interactors blah blah...``
Ummm...actually no. The first thing that I notice is the objectivity of Chowk interactors -- that is the ability to call a spade a spade. Your selective culling of the facts laid bare your objectivity (or lack thereof).
#242 Posted by jay on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
POWER OF 3 PERCENT,
In pakistan only 30 percent of the eligible people vote. The religious extremists do not believe in voting and that is 70 percent. Still the ilks of romair believe that there are only 3 percent extremists. Here is a proof, the following letter to the editor is talking about legislating against honour killing. Today it is legal in pakistan. During the rule of democratically elected Nawaz Sherif, when a young girl was killed in the office of Asma jahangir, the elected representatives of pakistan by a 75 percent majority refused to condemn honour killing. That is the power of the silent 70 percent, not the voice of the 3 percent.
A country where honour killing is legal is adisgrace to mankind. That is pakistan, the land of the homo erctus pakistanicus.
Eradicating Karo-kari
Every month a large number of innocent girls fall prey to the custom of Karo-kari (the so-called honour killing). This menace must be eradicated. The first step would be to create awareness among the people that is an un-Islamic act.
A law should be enacted to severely punish the culprits. The NGOs should also take up the issue in earnest to save hundreds of innocent lives.
ABDUL RAHMAN MALIK
Kandhkot, Jacobabad
In pakistan only 30 percent of the eligible people vote. The religious extremists do not believe in voting and that is 70 percent. Still the ilks of romair believe that there are only 3 percent extremists. Here is a proof, the following letter to the editor is talking about legislating against honour killing. Today it is legal in pakistan. During the rule of democratically elected Nawaz Sherif, when a young girl was killed in the office of Asma jahangir, the elected representatives of pakistan by a 75 percent majority refused to condemn honour killing. That is the power of the silent 70 percent, not the voice of the 3 percent.
A country where honour killing is legal is adisgrace to mankind. That is pakistan, the land of the homo erctus pakistanicus.
Eradicating Karo-kari
Every month a large number of innocent girls fall prey to the custom of Karo-kari (the so-called honour killing). This menace must be eradicated. The first step would be to create awareness among the people that is an un-Islamic act.
A law should be enacted to severely punish the culprits. The NGOs should also take up the issue in earnest to save hundreds of innocent lives.
ABDUL RAHMAN MALIK
Kandhkot, Jacobabad
#241 Posted by Umer Murtaza on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
Dear Sadna #235,
Please read my post to Sarwari in regards to her article, `what it means to be me in corporate America,` and you should sorta get the reasons as to why I replied in such manner.
For example, I spoke about the Pakistani youth blockading certain areas in Bradford and not allowing white people in. Everyone, including I, were extremely pi$$ed off at this gesture. It wasn`t made clear though that this action was retaliatory as opposed to offensive and that the BNP lads had been doing those things for some time. Changes the whole perspective doesn`t it?
Similarly, some person will read my post (and again I apologise if I`ve offended the silent parties. I`m not taking digs at anyone) and build up the usual Paki-Muslim-fundo image, not realising that it`s in retaliation to someone else. You`re right. It`s petty and cheap to talk of conversions etc. when the talk was about universities. However, it was in retaliation to another person, namely MT, trying to all come up big on me. So I just had to $lap the guy in place. And if his ego rules him, he will reply to this post. Believe it or not, I don`t like offending people, even on an anonymous board, so understand that I wasn`t trying to mock anything or anyone.
As with Harimau, despite the good knowledge that he possesses, the man has a hot poker up his a$$ all the time and he tends to hop, skip and jump to conclusions. Maybe I`m making a moutain out of a molehill but all of this started with him making the assertion that Islam - the religion - was responsible for the destruction and killing. I replied back; others jumped on the bandwagon; there you go.
As for Nalanda, taxila etc. I`ve always said it, there`s no shame in learning and questioning your beliefs. I`ll read up and provided it`s not just another `dontcha know that we actually landed on the moon first` sorta stuff, you`ll probably `hear` me correcting some other guy when he say that universities, hospitals etc. were made by the Muslims or whomever else…
Best wishes
Umer M.
Please read my post to Sarwari in regards to her article, `what it means to be me in corporate America,` and you should sorta get the reasons as to why I replied in such manner.
For example, I spoke about the Pakistani youth blockading certain areas in Bradford and not allowing white people in. Everyone, including I, were extremely pi$$ed off at this gesture. It wasn`t made clear though that this action was retaliatory as opposed to offensive and that the BNP lads had been doing those things for some time. Changes the whole perspective doesn`t it?
Similarly, some person will read my post (and again I apologise if I`ve offended the silent parties. I`m not taking digs at anyone) and build up the usual Paki-Muslim-fundo image, not realising that it`s in retaliation to someone else. You`re right. It`s petty and cheap to talk of conversions etc. when the talk was about universities. However, it was in retaliation to another person, namely MT, trying to all come up big on me. So I just had to $lap the guy in place. And if his ego rules him, he will reply to this post. Believe it or not, I don`t like offending people, even on an anonymous board, so understand that I wasn`t trying to mock anything or anyone.
As with Harimau, despite the good knowledge that he possesses, the man has a hot poker up his a$$ all the time and he tends to hop, skip and jump to conclusions. Maybe I`m making a moutain out of a molehill but all of this started with him making the assertion that Islam - the religion - was responsible for the destruction and killing. I replied back; others jumped on the bandwagon; there you go.
As for Nalanda, taxila etc. I`ve always said it, there`s no shame in learning and questioning your beliefs. I`ll read up and provided it`s not just another `dontcha know that we actually landed on the moon first` sorta stuff, you`ll probably `hear` me correcting some other guy when he say that universities, hospitals etc. were made by the Muslims or whomever else…
Best wishes
Umer M.
#238 Posted by Ashok on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
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#237 Posted by Ashok on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
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#236 Posted by Ashok on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
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#235 Posted by Ashok on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
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#234 Posted by krashid on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
Feroz K# 228
Is your full name Feroz Hasan Khan.
Just curious. I saw this name in newspaper.
Is your full name Feroz Hasan Khan.
Just curious. I saw this name in newspaper.
#233 Posted by shankar on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
Romair,
{{I just have to keep him honest, every now and then, to make sure he doesn`t start getting too big for his britches..... :)}}
Having fun at my expense while I have been out of town for the past few days, I see?
No worries; small consolation for all the countless arguments you`ve lost...
But I got your point...in order to argue politics in S.Asia, one has to be very familiar with Bollywood...heheh...
.btw, suggest a good movie that stars this Madhuri gal..lemme check out what all this fuss is about...this is my 21st yr in the US & the one thing I HAVENT missed about my beloved Bombay is Bollywood...so you better suggest a good movie..if such do exist in Bollywood..
{{I just have to keep him honest, every now and then, to make sure he doesn`t start getting too big for his britches..... :)}}
Having fun at my expense while I have been out of town for the past few days, I see?
No worries; small consolation for all the countless arguments you`ve lost...
But I got your point...in order to argue politics in S.Asia, one has to be very familiar with Bollywood...heheh...
.btw, suggest a good movie that stars this Madhuri gal..lemme check out what all this fuss is about...this is my 21st yr in the US & the one thing I HAVENT missed about my beloved Bombay is Bollywood...so you better suggest a good movie..if such do exist in Bollywood..
#232 Posted by scout on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
suxena #222, ``...was i talking to you?...NO...buzz off like a nice makkhhi...``
next time, when u`re not talking to me, please refrain from talking about me..i know you`re a bit obsessed but keep ur comments to urself....thanks
next time, when u`re not talking to me, please refrain from talking about me..i know you`re a bit obsessed but keep ur comments to urself....thanks
#231 Posted by hobbyty on July 22, 2002 2:25:56 pm
Tahmed
harimanu claims he is prepared to wait till hell freezes over for your answers - Could I impose on you to allow the testing of harimanu claims of being able to wait - now, if only he could wait in silence. And as mercy to those suffering in hell, he may relent and bathe or brush his teeth.
harimanu claims he is prepared to wait till hell freezes over for your answers - Could I impose on you to allow the testing of harimanu claims of being able to wait - now, if only he could wait in silence. And as mercy to those suffering in hell, he may relent and bathe or brush his teeth.
#230 Posted by sadna on July 21, 2002 11:28:53 pm
Umer Murtaza #233
Just a question. What does the rejection of Hinduism by your forbearers have to do with the question of when the universities of Nalanda and Taxila were founded and how they were destroyed?
Just a question. What does the rejection of Hinduism by your forbearers have to do with the question of when the universities of Nalanda and Taxila were founded and how they were destroyed?
#229 Posted by harimau on July 21, 2002 8:51:26 pm
Ref Mullah321 #: 225
[harimau #209 You are welcome to call me whatever names you wish to demonstrate your wit and charm.]
Demonstrating my wit and charm to you? That would be like casting pearls before swine.
However, I would like straightforward answers to a few questions from you.
Are Qadianis Muslims? How about Ismailis, particularly if the Aga Khan does not fund any more hospitals or schools in your neighborhood in Pakistan? How about Shias?
Can there be prophets after Prophet Muhammad? Even those who don`t bring down tablets with a dozen or so commandments on them or take dictation from the angel Gabriel?
Were Prophet Muhammad`s parents Muslims?
Did Prophet Muhammad shave his armpits?
I am actually prepared to wait till Hell freezes over for answers to these questions.
[You however dont need any names to describe you.
Your posts are enough to demonstrate that you are a hindutva rat.]
Ask me if I care whether Adi Shankara or Ramanujacharya shaved their armpits. Or Buddha or Moses or Jesus. Or even Prophet Muhammad.
[harimau #209 You are welcome to call me whatever names you wish to demonstrate your wit and charm.]
Demonstrating my wit and charm to you? That would be like casting pearls before swine.
However, I would like straightforward answers to a few questions from you.
Are Qadianis Muslims? How about Ismailis, particularly if the Aga Khan does not fund any more hospitals or schools in your neighborhood in Pakistan? How about Shias?
Can there be prophets after Prophet Muhammad? Even those who don`t bring down tablets with a dozen or so commandments on them or take dictation from the angel Gabriel?
Were Prophet Muhammad`s parents Muslims?
Did Prophet Muhammad shave his armpits?
I am actually prepared to wait till Hell freezes over for answers to these questions.
[You however dont need any names to describe you.
Your posts are enough to demonstrate that you are a hindutva rat.]
Ask me if I care whether Adi Shankara or Ramanujacharya shaved their armpits. Or Buddha or Moses or Jesus. Or even Prophet Muhammad.
#228 Posted by Umer Murtaza on July 21, 2002 8:51:26 pm
various replies
Well Harimau, I`m genuinely interested and will read up more but your basic premise of Islam being responsible for the loot and plunder of the institution is wrong. I don`t know, you tell me: is Hinduism filthy because the Hinduvta goons asked Ashwariya Rai to apply cream on her face that had cow urine as one of its ingredients? But then, it`s all relative anyway. Right? I honestly wouldn`t know because I haven`t read any of the Gitas yet.
Doesn`t matter where you get the articles from, even if they are from the evil Muslims. You are wrong. Full stop. I won`t cut and paste or anything else for that matter. Granted, your ability to cut and paste is superior to mine but you are still wrong. Feel free to correct me but your holy book mentions God as being one and having no form. It doesn`t stop you from worshipping 330 million forms, does it? Hell, the latest female one is out of Bollywood, is she not, and women use her as means of gaining success. So yeah, Islam is peace loving. And no, the Taliban did indeed shoot the Bamiyan Buddhas.
MT, my ancestors were of Indian decent that saw through the philosophical hocus pocus. You see, they couldn`t give a flying fuKK about the wonderful imagery that you may conjure up because when they woke up, some higher caste idiot would slap him in place and ask him to handle his shoes. They were fed up of being born into, treated like and handling $hit because my great great great grandfather had apparently committed great sins in a supposed life he had no recollection of. Can you believe that? He was the scum of the earth and it was all his fault because he had done bad things in the past life. Imagine his frustration when he couldn`t recollect them. As for my great great great grandmother, she must have committed some heinous crime too, like not marrying the dewar to keep the money in the family.
So I`m personally indebted to the Arab and Persian plunderers because despite some of the nationalistic rubbish that they tried to inject, at least I`m enjoying a better life because of them. You`re just pi$$ed off `cos no one`s there to handle your diapers. What`s the MT for anyway? Is that like `empty`, as in the condition of your skull?
Sridar Ji, as with Harimau, I may not say it but I accepted a long time ago that I know nothing (I`m using the right word here) and no matter how much I try to learn, I will never fully know everything. But it`s better to say what you know than to try to communicate what you don`t. It just saves on time. What gets up my goat is when people make huge accusations when they damn well know that they`re talking crap. I`m genuinely interested in nalanda etc and will read up on it though I hope you understand that simply by reading an article on such and such topics (especially one on the Internet) will not verify your claims. I used the link but got `the page cannot be found` sign. Nevertheless, I`ll do a search on it.
I would also like to apologise to all the Hindus on the forum if I`ve offended you. It`s nothing personal but sometimes laaton ke bhoot baaton se nahin maante. I have no feelings for Hinduism - the actual religion - because I honestly haven`t studied it in detail. I neither dislike it and neither do I like it. I hope this makes my position clear.
And I don`t want to start my stay in Chowk with all that Hindu-Muslim-Indo-Pak crap either.
Thank you all.
Umer M.
Well Harimau, I`m genuinely interested and will read up more but your basic premise of Islam being responsible for the loot and plunder of the institution is wrong. I don`t know, you tell me: is Hinduism filthy because the Hinduvta goons asked Ashwariya Rai to apply cream on her face that had cow urine as one of its ingredients? But then, it`s all relative anyway. Right? I honestly wouldn`t know because I haven`t read any of the Gitas yet.
Doesn`t matter where you get the articles from, even if they are from the evil Muslims. You are wrong. Full stop. I won`t cut and paste or anything else for that matter. Granted, your ability to cut and paste is superior to mine but you are still wrong. Feel free to correct me but your holy book mentions God as being one and having no form. It doesn`t stop you from worshipping 330 million forms, does it? Hell, the latest female one is out of Bollywood, is she not, and women use her as means of gaining success. So yeah, Islam is peace loving. And no, the Taliban did indeed shoot the Bamiyan Buddhas.
MT, my ancestors were of Indian decent that saw through the philosophical hocus pocus. You see, they couldn`t give a flying fuKK about the wonderful imagery that you may conjure up because when they woke up, some higher caste idiot would slap him in place and ask him to handle his shoes. They were fed up of being born into, treated like and handling $hit because my great great great grandfather had apparently committed great sins in a supposed life he had no recollection of. Can you believe that? He was the scum of the earth and it was all his fault because he had done bad things in the past life. Imagine his frustration when he couldn`t recollect them. As for my great great great grandmother, she must have committed some heinous crime too, like not marrying the dewar to keep the money in the family.
So I`m personally indebted to the Arab and Persian plunderers because despite some of the nationalistic rubbish that they tried to inject, at least I`m enjoying a better life because of them. You`re just pi$$ed off `cos no one`s there to handle your diapers. What`s the MT for anyway? Is that like `empty`, as in the condition of your skull?
Sridar Ji, as with Harimau, I may not say it but I accepted a long time ago that I know nothing (I`m using the right word here) and no matter how much I try to learn, I will never fully know everything. But it`s better to say what you know than to try to communicate what you don`t. It just saves on time. What gets up my goat is when people make huge accusations when they damn well know that they`re talking crap. I`m genuinely interested in nalanda etc and will read up on it though I hope you understand that simply by reading an article on such and such topics (especially one on the Internet) will not verify your claims. I used the link but got `the page cannot be found` sign. Nevertheless, I`ll do a search on it.
I would also like to apologise to all the Hindus on the forum if I`ve offended you. It`s nothing personal but sometimes laaton ke bhoot baaton se nahin maante. I have no feelings for Hinduism - the actual religion - because I honestly haven`t studied it in detail. I neither dislike it and neither do I like it. I hope this makes my position clear.
And I don`t want to start my stay in Chowk with all that Hindu-Muslim-Indo-Pak crap either.
Thank you all.
Umer M.
#227 Posted by Romair on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
Pakistan has rejected the Saudi and Taliban social and political models (there was never really any chance of Pakistan being Talibanized). Now Pakistan should be careful and not attempt to follow the Turkish model either.
Turkey, is an extremist society (or at least, an extremist political system), at the opposite end of the current Muslim extremist syndrome. As an example, while women are forced wear scarfs etc. in some Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and the Taliban Afghanistan, in Turkey, they are kicked out of Universities, jobs, Parliaments, etc. if they do so.
Now Turkey is faced with a dilemma, which is a natural occurence, if one keeps banning secular or religious forces in a country. The maulvis are about to take over, as are the pro-Kurd parties. For those who don`t know, Turkey`s handling of Kurds, currently gives Turkey one of the worst human rights records in the world.
``The pro-Islamic party, Justice and Development, would come out No. 1 in an election, according to polls. The party is led by Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a charismatic former mayor of Istanbul who draws support from those worst affected by the economic crisis.
The pro-Kurdish People`s Democracy Party, or HADEP, has also been steadily increasing its votes.
``There is speculation that Justice and Development will end up the first party ... and that HADEP will pass the threshold,`` Ecevit said.
``If that comes true ... Turkey will be faced with questions over its regime,`` he said, referring to the powerful and staunchly pro-secular military who could well block a pro-Islamic government from wielding power.
In 1997, the military pressured another Islamic-led government out of power.(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39422-2002Jul21.html)
Interestingly in 1997, the Islamic Rafah party gained the highest number of seats, and was banned (that is what happens to religious parties in Turkey, if they win seats). And these parties, aren`t even lead by bearded maulvis, they are lead by suit-wearing maulvis, who write their names in Latin alphabets. Yet they are still banned.
Also, interestingly, in Pakistan, a country which doesn`t try to wear its secular or relgious identity, on its sleeves, religious parties only win 0 - 3% of the seats. And openly secular parties (if there are any) only win about the same amount. And separatist parties don`t win any seats, since there are no separatist movements going on.
Before Pakistanis try to start following the Turkish model, they should see what kind of a political mess Turkey itself is in. I have a feeling the two parties in Turkey, which are to win the largest votes (religious and pro-Kurdish) will be banned (again). The next time, they will come in even stronger, and sooner or later, Turkey, like the old Iran, will be bifurcated into two powerful groups (the maulvis and the secularatics).
Pakistan needs to be careful, and not try to implement the religiously fanatic political system of Saudi Arabia, nor the secularly fanatic system of Turkey. Since, at a political level, these socities themselves, are in a mess.
P.S. It is going to be interesting to see Turkish population`s reaction, if the US asks them permission to use their bases to bomb Iraq; specially now, when the religious party(ies) are the most popular. Saudi Arabia and Syria isn`t giving permission. And Kuwait may not either. So the two logical choices from the East and North are Jordan and Turkey. Both countries, with a pro-US, secularly oriented govt., but anti-US (in Turkey a little over 50%, in Jordan far more) populations, are moving in the religious direction in their political views.
Iraq could split up into three countries, as a result of US shenanigans. A Kurdish northern state, causing furthur problems for Turkey, with its own Kurds. A Shia southern state, which could join Iran, And a middle Sunni state, which could go anywhere.
It will a lot different than the US asking Pakistan to use its bases, for logistic needs, to attack a Taliban dominated Afghanistan, that was protecting Osama. Iraq, to the best of my knowledge, hasn`t done anything to the US. Other than trying to manufacture nukes. But then, aren`t we all trying to manufacture nukes.
Turkey, is an extremist society (or at least, an extremist political system), at the opposite end of the current Muslim extremist syndrome. As an example, while women are forced wear scarfs etc. in some Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and the Taliban Afghanistan, in Turkey, they are kicked out of Universities, jobs, Parliaments, etc. if they do so.
Now Turkey is faced with a dilemma, which is a natural occurence, if one keeps banning secular or religious forces in a country. The maulvis are about to take over, as are the pro-Kurd parties. For those who don`t know, Turkey`s handling of Kurds, currently gives Turkey one of the worst human rights records in the world.
``The pro-Islamic party, Justice and Development, would come out No. 1 in an election, according to polls. The party is led by Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a charismatic former mayor of Istanbul who draws support from those worst affected by the economic crisis.
The pro-Kurdish People`s Democracy Party, or HADEP, has also been steadily increasing its votes.
``There is speculation that Justice and Development will end up the first party ... and that HADEP will pass the threshold,`` Ecevit said.
``If that comes true ... Turkey will be faced with questions over its regime,`` he said, referring to the powerful and staunchly pro-secular military who could well block a pro-Islamic government from wielding power.
In 1997, the military pressured another Islamic-led government out of power.(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39422-2002Jul21.html)
Interestingly in 1997, the Islamic Rafah party gained the highest number of seats, and was banned (that is what happens to religious parties in Turkey, if they win seats). And these parties, aren`t even lead by bearded maulvis, they are lead by suit-wearing maulvis, who write their names in Latin alphabets. Yet they are still banned.
Also, interestingly, in Pakistan, a country which doesn`t try to wear its secular or relgious identity, on its sleeves, religious parties only win 0 - 3% of the seats. And openly secular parties (if there are any) only win about the same amount. And separatist parties don`t win any seats, since there are no separatist movements going on.
Before Pakistanis try to start following the Turkish model, they should see what kind of a political mess Turkey itself is in. I have a feeling the two parties in Turkey, which are to win the largest votes (religious and pro-Kurdish) will be banned (again). The next time, they will come in even stronger, and sooner or later, Turkey, like the old Iran, will be bifurcated into two powerful groups (the maulvis and the secularatics).
Pakistan needs to be careful, and not try to implement the religiously fanatic political system of Saudi Arabia, nor the secularly fanatic system of Turkey. Since, at a political level, these socities themselves, are in a mess.
P.S. It is going to be interesting to see Turkish population`s reaction, if the US asks them permission to use their bases to bomb Iraq; specially now, when the religious party(ies) are the most popular. Saudi Arabia and Syria isn`t giving permission. And Kuwait may not either. So the two logical choices from the East and North are Jordan and Turkey. Both countries, with a pro-US, secularly oriented govt., but anti-US (in Turkey a little over 50%, in Jordan far more) populations, are moving in the religious direction in their political views.
Iraq could split up into three countries, as a result of US shenanigans. A Kurdish northern state, causing furthur problems for Turkey, with its own Kurds. A Shia southern state, which could join Iran, And a middle Sunni state, which could go anywhere.
It will a lot different than the US asking Pakistan to use its bases, for logistic needs, to attack a Taliban dominated Afghanistan, that was protecting Osama. Iraq, to the best of my knowledge, hasn`t done anything to the US. Other than trying to manufacture nukes. But then, aren`t we all trying to manufacture nukes.
#226 Posted by tahmed321 on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
harimau #209 You are welcome to call me whatever names you wish to demonstrate your wit and charm. You however dont need any names to describe you. Your posts are enough to demonstrate that you are a hindutva rat.
As for whether your thinking my advice was good - I couldnt care less for your opinions.
As for whether your thinking my advice was good - I couldnt care less for your opinions.
#225 Posted by rsaxena on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
re: spout
{excuse me jerk, did i give you permission to write my name?}
...was i talking to you?...NO...buzz off like a nice makkhhi...
{excuse me jerk, did i give you permission to write my name?}
...was i talking to you?...NO...buzz off like a nice makkhhi...
#224 Posted by rsaxena on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
re: fawad
{so rsax are you up for some bar hopping or what the offer still stands and for you too askah ?}
...sure...i`m caught up with some work stuff right now, but let`s shoot for next month...
{where do u know about sandanavian chicks?}
...umm, i travel to europe now and then...
{i have a story.......i was on the train studying for a medicinal chemistry exam i had a while ago. I was goin through my drug cards and this spanish chick plopped next to me and asked me which train it was that was going to nb i told her. Next she goes what are you studying blah blah and then finnally goes , so ur columbian right ...im like no.....puerto rican ......no..... dominican......no finally what r u ????/ im pakistani......}
...hmmm...too bad...learn some spanish and play along next time...it worked for me in spain last summer, until it came time to construct complex sentences in spanish...hahaah...
{so rsax are you up for some bar hopping or what the offer still stands and for you too askah ?}
...sure...i`m caught up with some work stuff right now, but let`s shoot for next month...
{where do u know about sandanavian chicks?}
...umm, i travel to europe now and then...
{i have a story.......i was on the train studying for a medicinal chemistry exam i had a while ago. I was goin through my drug cards and this spanish chick plopped next to me and asked me which train it was that was going to nb i told her. Next she goes what are you studying blah blah and then finnally goes , so ur columbian right ...im like no.....puerto rican ......no..... dominican......no finally what r u ????/ im pakistani......}
...hmmm...too bad...learn some spanish and play along next time...it worked for me in spain last summer, until it came time to construct complex sentences in spanish...hahaah...
#223 Posted by adnan_672 on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
Dear Mr Zaidi
ALthough I agree with the general thesis that muslims must improve their lot through their own efforts, I would like to point out two errors (errors ofcourse in my view) in your article
1. ``...Our fictitious (though much ballyhooed) pan-Islamic Muslim unity is another popular placebo..``
You call Pan Islamism fictitious and you go on to write, ``we``, ``muslims``!!
Despotic unrepresentative regimes in the Islamic world do not represnt the people and it is these regimes that are involved in bickering amonst themselves.
As far as the people are concerned all muslims around the world feel the suffering of the Palestinians, Chechens, Bosnians, Algerians, this is an excellent proof of Pan Islamic sentiments
2. Why do the muslims distrust the west??
well it is not just that the muslims are blaming the west for their miserable condition, the west has constantly proped up, supported by all means the despotic regimes in the islamic world (by the west i mean the western establishment, the peoples of the western countries are kept ignorant by means of an effective media)
May I simply cite the overthrow of Mussadiq`s govt. which acted as a catalyst for the inqilaab.
The situation in Algeria, etc etc
THese regimes are SUPPORTED not just tolerated by the western establishments.
That is the cause of muslim anger.
Adnan
ALthough I agree with the general thesis that muslims must improve their lot through their own efforts, I would like to point out two errors (errors ofcourse in my view) in your article
1. ``...Our fictitious (though much ballyhooed) pan-Islamic Muslim unity is another popular placebo..``
You call Pan Islamism fictitious and you go on to write, ``we``, ``muslims``!!
Despotic unrepresentative regimes in the Islamic world do not represnt the people and it is these regimes that are involved in bickering amonst themselves.
As far as the people are concerned all muslims around the world feel the suffering of the Palestinians, Chechens, Bosnians, Algerians, this is an excellent proof of Pan Islamic sentiments
2. Why do the muslims distrust the west??
well it is not just that the muslims are blaming the west for their miserable condition, the west has constantly proped up, supported by all means the despotic regimes in the islamic world (by the west i mean the western establishment, the peoples of the western countries are kept ignorant by means of an effective media)
May I simply cite the overthrow of Mussadiq`s govt. which acted as a catalyst for the inqilaab.
The situation in Algeria, etc etc
THese regimes are SUPPORTED not just tolerated by the western establishments.
That is the cause of muslim anger.
Adnan
#222 Posted by Umer Murtaza on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
Dear Feroz,
Thank you for the modification. Though nothing is set in stone, you`re more in the right than I am since majority of the evidence does go for Julius Caesar accidentally burning the scrolls. I`ve been confusing the issue with the smaller Serapium libraries and the destruction of the Serapis temple by emperor Theophylline/ theodopolopolus (can`t remember the name) etc etc.
Umer M
Thank you for the modification. Though nothing is set in stone, you`re more in the right than I am since majority of the evidence does go for Julius Caesar accidentally burning the scrolls. I`ve been confusing the issue with the smaller Serapium libraries and the destruction of the Serapis temple by emperor Theophylline/ theodopolopolus (can`t remember the name) etc etc.
Umer M
#221 Posted by rsridhar on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
re:Reply #: 214
Umer Murtaza
``Universities and hospitals were concepts conceived and executed by the Muslims.``
It is not surprising you say so. Perhaps this is the history you were taught in Pakistan. I believe, the history as taught in Pakistan, starts with the invasion of Sindh by Md-bin-Qasim.
This of course gives me an opportunity to educate you and i feel happy about it. Taxila (previously called Takshashila)which is in Pakistan, was the first world university (at least first recorded in history). It was established in 3rd century B.C. Nalanda was established about 7 centuries later but still before Islam was founded by its Prophet.
Nalanda at any given time had more than 100,000 resident students and more than 3000 resident teachers. More than 60 subjects were taught. Education was free. Read more about it in the following Url:
http://atributetohinduism.com/articles_hinduism/169.htm.
Sridhar
Umer Murtaza
``Universities and hospitals were concepts conceived and executed by the Muslims.``
It is not surprising you say so. Perhaps this is the history you were taught in Pakistan. I believe, the history as taught in Pakistan, starts with the invasion of Sindh by Md-bin-Qasim.
This of course gives me an opportunity to educate you and i feel happy about it. Taxila (previously called Takshashila)which is in Pakistan, was the first world university (at least first recorded in history). It was established in 3rd century B.C. Nalanda was established about 7 centuries later but still before Islam was founded by its Prophet.
Nalanda at any given time had more than 100,000 resident students and more than 3000 resident teachers. More than 60 subjects were taught. Education was free. Read more about it in the following Url:
http://atributetohinduism.com/articles_hinduism/169.htm.
Sridhar
#220 Posted by shammi on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
Re: Romair
There are many all-volunteer militaries in the world who willingly accept the occupational hazards that come with job, but are not prone to grab power arrogantly by deposing civil authority, because they perform a `special duty`. The Pakistan armed forces do not do anything exceptional by this yardstick that gives them the right to conquer Islamabad from time to time. Hiding behind the figleaf of producing shaheeds for `supreme national interest` is not a good enough reason. This is my business, because we live in an increasingly globalized world, and anamolous events in one country can have global effects -- e.g. 9/11. It is as much my concern as it is of a worried US administration or the Indian govt. or the British Commonwealth.
There are many all-volunteer militaries in the world who willingly accept the occupational hazards that come with job, but are not prone to grab power arrogantly by deposing civil authority, because they perform a `special duty`. The Pakistan armed forces do not do anything exceptional by this yardstick that gives them the right to conquer Islamabad from time to time. Hiding behind the figleaf of producing shaheeds for `supreme national interest` is not a good enough reason. This is my business, because we live in an increasingly globalized world, and anamolous events in one country can have global effects -- e.g. 9/11. It is as much my concern as it is of a worried US administration or the Indian govt. or the British Commonwealth.
#219 Posted by shammi on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
Re: Romair
There are many all-volunteer militaries in the world who willingly accept the occupational hazards that come with job, but are not prone to grab power arrogantly by deposing civil authority, because they perform a `special duty`. The Pakistan armed forces do not do anything exceptional by this yardstick that gives them the right to conquer Islamabad from time to time. Hiding behind the figleaf of producing shaheeds for `supreme national interest` is not a good enough reason. This is my business, because we live in an increasingly globalized world, and anamolous events in one country can have global effects -- e.g. 9/11. It is as much my concern as it is of a worried US administration or the Indian govt. or the British Commonwealth.
There are many all-volunteer militaries in the world who willingly accept the occupational hazards that come with job, but are not prone to grab power arrogantly by deposing civil authority, because they perform a `special duty`. The Pakistan armed forces do not do anything exceptional by this yardstick that gives them the right to conquer Islamabad from time to time. Hiding behind the figleaf of producing shaheeds for `supreme national interest` is not a good enough reason. This is my business, because we live in an increasingly globalized world, and anamolous events in one country can have global effects -- e.g. 9/11. It is as much my concern as it is of a worried US administration or the Indian govt. or the British Commonwealth.
#218 Posted by hobbyty on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
Shammi
Since the first thing you notice is the religion of writers (an entirely secular affliction) Indian, or rather Hindu Indians seem unable to reconcile themselves - They are in the grip of an identity crisis - What does it mean to be a Hindu and an Indian or it there any difference between the two? Only Hindus and Indians will have to answer, whatever the answer, it will have consequences for those in India and those who must be vigilant to ensure hindu fascism is contained.
``Militants seek Muslim-free India
Burhan Wazir reports from Gujarat on an explosion of violence, nationalism and Nazi-style politics and its result: 2,000 killed and 100,000 homeless
Sunday July 21, 2002
The Observer
At the elegantly simple home of Mahatma Gandhi in Ahmedabad, the bustling capital of Gujarat state, a museum eulogises his contribution to the founding of India. Gandhi`s clothes, books, journals and photographs line the walls. Outside in the freshly watered gardens the mango trees are in full bloom. One journal contains Gandhi`s simple denunciation of violence: `The science of war leads one to dictatorship. The science of non-violence alone can lead one to a pure democracy.`
More than 50 years after his death at the hands of a nationalist militant, Gandhi would find India unrecognisable. In the past five months his home state has been stunned by religious violence that shows few signs of fading.
India`s worst religious violence since the 1947 partition was sparked at the end of February when 57 Hindu pilgrims were killed in the alleged torching of a train carriage by Muslim militants in Godhra. Hindu militants sought a swift revenge.
Since then, massacres by Hindu gangs have become commonplace. In five months, more than 2,000 Muslims have been killed and more than 100,000 displaced, congregating in squalid camps around Gujarat.
The state is in turmoil. On Friday, only hours after the state`s top elected official, Chief Minister Narendra Modi, resigned and dissolved the legislative assembly to seek a fresh mandate, at least two people were killed and eight others injured when police opened fire to disperse rioting mobs. In recent months Mohdi had come under attack for his delayed response to the killings. His resignation was eclipsed, however, on Thursday when 70-year-old Muslim scientist Dr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, an unrepentant nationalist and the father of India`s nuclear missile programme, was elected to the largely ceremonial role of President.
The violence has been linked to the rise of extremist Hindu groups such as the Association of National Volunteers, or the RSS - a khaki-clad nationalist paramilitary sect formed in the Twenties - and its offspring, the World Hindu Council, or the VHP.
Gujarat is one of the few states in India controlled by the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party. The state has been described as a `laboratory for Hindu fascism`. Since rising to power in the mid-Nineties, the BJP has aggressively pursued a pro-Hindu agenda.
It has also backed the construction of a temple in Ayodhya, where Hindu nationalists destroyed a mosque in 1992. Several members of the present Cabinet, including the Indian Deputy Prime Minister, L.K. Advani, were present at the demolition.
The RSS and the World Hindu Council, described locally as `Saffron Warriors`, have one clear aim: Hindu expansion by mass conversion. The militants believe that India was once an empire of 75 countries stretching from Cambodia to Iran.
They have introduced textbooks that convey former Hindu glories, and they propagate the myth of an India under siege from native Islamic militants. The RSS also lobbies to reintroduce the traditional names of cities like Mumbai, until recently Bombay.
`The situation is getting out of control,` says Arvind Sisodia, vice-president of the VHP in Gujarat. A passionate advocate of the Hindutva or `global Hindu conscious ness`, Sisodia is a middle-class worker at the Life Insurance Corporation of India.
`In Gujarat, the Muslims own all the shops; they are involved in illegal trade,` says Sisodia. `And Muslim boys steal our Hindu girls and marry them. So the situation is unbearable.`
In the days after the first killings in Gujarat, the VHP distributed leaflets asking Hindus to pledge a boycott of Muslims - including refusing to be taught by Muslim teachers and ensuring sisters and daughters did not fall into `the love-trap of Muslim boys`.
`It is up to all Hindus to make sure that we restore India to dominance,` says Sisodia. `Hinduism was once the dominant faith. Muslims have to learn to adapt. Otherwise, it will be dangerous for them. We don`t want them here.`
A few days after the deaths at Godhra, on a humid morning in an inner-city enclave of Ahmedabad, around 20 men marched up to the Indian flag and offered the Nazi salute. This was a training camp, or shakha, run by the RSS. There are about 40,000 camps scattered throughout India and informal ones abroad for expatriates.
The men, many of them in their thirties, are middle-class professionals - employees of Ahmedabad`s bustling industrial community. India`s middle classes are the keenest recruits to the RSS - drawn by fears of Islamic terrorism and of Westernisation amid a crumbling national economy.
In a fashionable Ahmedabad gated community lives Vijay Chauthaiwale, a microbiologist. Over lunch, with the World Cup playing on a satellite channel behind him, he explained his attraction to the RSS: `We are a very modern family,` he said, `but I feel that the more we move towards the West, the more likely we are to lose our Hindu values.
`Gandhi would not have understood,` he said. `He was an old-fashioned man with old-fashioned ideas. No one believes those things any more. The world has changed. And for Hindus to survive, we have to protect our culture and our way of life.`
For middle-class families such as Chauthaiwale`s, the Indian secular experiment has proved disastrous. The country`s Muslim population - now 11 per cent - is seen as a primary threat. `Where do the allegiances of the Muslims lie?` asked Kaushik Mehta, general secretary of the VHP in Gujarat.
He pointed to an enclave of Ahmedabad dubbed `mini-Pakistan` for its madrassahs, or Islamic schools. `We can`t allow such places to exist. They train terrorists. Muslims have to integrate. If they refuse to, we`ll be forced to make them. Or they can leave.`
For the 100,000 Muslims in squalid camps around Gujarat there is no such escape. In nearby Pakistan, India`s Muslims are viewed as traitors who betrayed Pakistan after partition. And now the Muslim camps are being shut down, casting their occupants into the streets and into the hands of Hindu extremists.
Most are fearful of returning to their villages. `They can`t go back because they face death threats,` said Father Cedric Prakash, director of Prashant, a human rights group in Ahmedabad. `The fanatics have all the power.`
More violence seems inevitable. At the end of February, Anjum Bana escaped her village in Panderwala with her six-week-old daughter. As Hindu militants torched the village, she hid in the forest. `There was nothing to eat or drink for three days,` she said. `I could hear people shouting RSS slogans all around me. And my child was dying. I know I can`t go back.`
The hawkish former Chief Minister of Gujarat, Narinder Mohdi, however, is unconvinced. In the early days of the rioting, as the body count escalated, Mohdi famously said Gujarat`s Hindus had shown `remarkable restraint`. Shortly before resigning on Friday, he said: `There is no problem with people returning back home. If they don`t want to go, they should be forced back. They have to go back.`
In a shabby camp in a graveyard in Ahmedabad, residents have taken to organising a night-time watch. `They know that once we are on the streets we are vulnerable. I can`t understand it. I have lived with Hindu neighbours for 40 years, and there have never been any problems. Now those same neighbours have turned on me. And no one will look after us.`
Burhan Wazir presents `Unreported World: Saffron Warriors` on Channel 4 on Saturday at 7.40 pm.``
Happy ``love trap``
#217 Posted by krashid on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
Rahmatein Hein Teri Aghyar Ke Kashanoon Pur
Burq Girti Hai to Bechare Musalmanoon Pur.
Iqbal.
There is no question that Muslims have been defeated in all respects by the end of last century. For some reasons while the west was going through a renaissance phase and creative activity was at its height, Muslim rulers were happy with their conquests of past. Is Muslim masses or population in Muslim world is at fault, for not keeping up. Or Muslim intelligentia failed or Maulanas and Maulvis created an oppressive enviornment. Can we blame all Muslim population. What happened after Abbasid is a spiraling down. At that time there was creative activity at its peak in Muslim world. Two great venters of learning in Muslim world Spain and Baghdad have been destroyed.
Coming to the question of Israel first. Zionist movement was probably started in late last 19th century (or became pretty strong) with British help. Jewish problem was a problem of West all along the history. Israel was the solution. But it means displacement of Palestinians from their own land. But it was justified on historical and religious ground, by West and jews. West to find solution of jewish problem. And jews to find a homeland of their own. Palestinians mostly Muslims were sufferers in all this saga. And they have the sympathy of vast number of not only Muslims but non Muslims as well. It is a matter of identification and perspective. (Meaning with whom one identifies oneself when taking sides).
The anti- American feeling among Muslim world is an absurd assertion. I don`t know how much Muslims are cubans or vietnamese or for that matter even french, German or Chinese. Moreover if majority of people of Iran for example want to get rid of Shah of Iran and America insists on supporting and backing Shah of Iran, I don`t think Iranians can be blamed for that. Or if USA pats Pervez Musharraf (as their ownn S.O.B.) and is going to accept as valid the next farce called election, it should not be surprised if a significant number of people bear Anti- American feeling.
Burq Girti Hai to Bechare Musalmanoon Pur.
Iqbal.
There is no question that Muslims have been defeated in all respects by the end of last century. For some reasons while the west was going through a renaissance phase and creative activity was at its height, Muslim rulers were happy with their conquests of past. Is Muslim masses or population in Muslim world is at fault, for not keeping up. Or Muslim intelligentia failed or Maulanas and Maulvis created an oppressive enviornment. Can we blame all Muslim population. What happened after Abbasid is a spiraling down. At that time there was creative activity at its peak in Muslim world. Two great venters of learning in Muslim world Spain and Baghdad have been destroyed.
Coming to the question of Israel first. Zionist movement was probably started in late last 19th century (or became pretty strong) with British help. Jewish problem was a problem of West all along the history. Israel was the solution. But it means displacement of Palestinians from their own land. But it was justified on historical and religious ground, by West and jews. West to find solution of jewish problem. And jews to find a homeland of their own. Palestinians mostly Muslims were sufferers in all this saga. And they have the sympathy of vast number of not only Muslims but non Muslims as well. It is a matter of identification and perspective. (Meaning with whom one identifies oneself when taking sides).
The anti- American feeling among Muslim world is an absurd assertion. I don`t know how much Muslims are cubans or vietnamese or for that matter even french, German or Chinese. Moreover if majority of people of Iran for example want to get rid of Shah of Iran and America insists on supporting and backing Shah of Iran, I don`t think Iranians can be blamed for that. Or if USA pats Pervez Musharraf (as their ownn S.O.B.) and is going to accept as valid the next farce called election, it should not be surprised if a significant number of people bear Anti- American feeling.
#216 Posted by MT on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
UM # 214
Why should you care about who destroyed the Alexandrian libraries. You must be happy that the books that preached blasphemy were consigned to Godly wrath.Ain`t that right Abdul or is it Achmed.
Abdul, Did you know that there are strains of Hinduism that practically agree with the atheistic Buddhist philosophy. Therein lies the difference with Hinduism , the ability to coexist at the philospohical level with widely disparate philosophies.
Abdul,did you know that ancient Arabs and Persians used the Karez form of irrigation thousands of years ago and that they still do.
Time stands still doesn`t it. You still have to figure a way to loot/rob other civilisations albeit under the thin veneer of propagating desert nomad values.
Uniformity makes morons out of people, let them be different and let them act different .
But that ain`t the Lord`s way , right Abdul.
Abdul whom do you trace your illustriousness to - the Arab bedouin or the Persian freebooter or the Afghan brigand who chose to spend some time satiating their perversions with one of your ancestors.
Why should you care about who destroyed the Alexandrian libraries. You must be happy that the books that preached blasphemy were consigned to Godly wrath.Ain`t that right Abdul or is it Achmed.
Abdul, Did you know that there are strains of Hinduism that practically agree with the atheistic Buddhist philosophy. Therein lies the difference with Hinduism , the ability to coexist at the philospohical level with widely disparate philosophies.
Abdul,did you know that ancient Arabs and Persians used the Karez form of irrigation thousands of years ago and that they still do.
Time stands still doesn`t it. You still have to figure a way to loot/rob other civilisations albeit under the thin veneer of propagating desert nomad values.
Uniformity makes morons out of people, let them be different and let them act different .
But that ain`t the Lord`s way , right Abdul.
Abdul whom do you trace your illustriousness to - the Arab bedouin or the Persian freebooter or the Afghan brigand who chose to spend some time satiating their perversions with one of your ancestors.
#215 Posted by harimau on July 21, 2002 5:53:24 pm
Ref Umer Murtaza #: 214
[Universities and hospitals were concepts conceived and executed by the Muslims. As for the Buddhists, I`m reminded of the lie by a Christian friend of mine that the party of Omar burnt the libraries of Alexandria, whereas it was in fact the Christian Romans. Similarly, an individual, whom I had previously advised to drench his women`s saris to conserve the petrol, is now accusing my faith for something when his own was responsible for massacring and forcing the Buddhists into its fold.]
You will soon be telling us that the Taliban preserved the Bamiyan Buddhas.
Tell me again, please, pretty please with sugar and icing on top, that Islam is a peace-loving religion.
Or how about those beautiful verses in the Koran that exhort Muslims to be tolerant of idol-worshippers?
People like you ought not to be allowed out without adult supervision.
First, about the library at Alexandria:
``The original library - completely destroyed in antiquity, probably in a fire following Caesar`s sacking of the city in 48 BC - was built by Hellenistic king Ptolemy in the beginning of the 3rd century BC. The construction of a great library that would bring together knowledge from cultures and civilizations worldwide was inspired by Alexander the Great`s ideal of unifying the world. The library incorporated and fully catalogued the entire body of known Greek literature as well as Greek translations of works from the Mediterranean, the Middle East and India. Bibliotheca Alexandrina became the world`s first university boasting scholars such as Euclid, Erastosthenes, Heron and Archimedes.``
This happened in 48 BC, which is almost 50 years before Issa bin Mariam was born and some 75 years before he founded Christianity. So there were no ``Christian`` Romans who could have burnt down the Alexandria library, only pagan Romans.
Now, to Nalanda.
Just in case any of you mufukkas want to deny history, here it is, in black and white, as written by a Muslim historian of that era:
Tabakat-i Nasiri of Abu ‘Umar Minhaju-d din, ‘Usman ibn Siraju-d din al Juzjani.
In The History of India as Told by its own Historians. The Posthumous Papers of the Late Sir H. M. Elliot. John Dowson, ed. 1st ed. 1867. 2nd ed., Calcutta: Susil Gupta, 1956, vol. 13.
1. Overview
The Tabakat-i Nasiri is a history of the world from the earliest time to 658 H. (1260 CE). Its author, Abu ‘Umar Minhaju-d din, ‘Usman ibn Siraju-d din al Juzjani, was descended from a noble family of Ghaznî which had been discplaced following the fall of the Ghaznivids. His father, Maulana Siraju-d din, was the qazi of Muhammad Ghori’s army in India. Minhaju-d Siraju-d came to India in 624 H. (1227 CE), and was appointed the director of Firozi College in Uch. In 625 H. (August 1228 CE) entered the service of the Sultan of Delhi, Shamsu-d din Altamish. He resigned during the brief rule Sultan Raziya, but was appointed Qazi of Delhi by her successor, Sultan Bahram Shah, in 639 H. (1241 CE) When the Sultan was slain and deposed later that year, he resigned and retired to Lakhnauti in Bengal. In 642 H. he returned to Delhi, and entered the service of Sultan Nasiru-d din Mahmud in 644 H (1246 CE). It is believed that he outlived by several years the Sultan, who died in 664 H. (1266 CE). The Tabakat-i Nasiri is dedicated to the Sultan, and extends to the fifteenth year of his rule (658 H., 1260 CE).
The first excerpt narrates Muhammad Bakhtiyar’s infamous raid on Bihar and his destruction of Nalanda, which occurred in 1193 CE. This raid was undertaken under the rule of Qutb-ud-dîn Aibak, the de facto ruler of the Ghűrid holdings in Northern India, and the first of Sultan of Delhi following the death of Muhammad Ghűri in 1206 CE.
The second excerpt narrates events during the reign of Sultan Îltutmish. He was the son-in-law of the first sultan of Delhi, Qutb-ud-dîn Airak. Within a year of the latter’s death he deposed his son Ârâm Shâh, and placed himself on the throne, ruling until his death in 1236 CE. The excerpts describe his conquest of Gwailor and Malwa.
The second excerpt contains descriptions of military ventures undertaken by Sultan Nâsir-ud dîn Mahműd, who governed the Delhi sultanate from 1246-1266 CE, and who was a son of Sultan Îltutmish. These ventures were undertaken by his general and successor Ghiyas-ud-dîn Balban, who prior to his reign was commonly called Ulugh Khan. He was noted for his extreme brutality. This was particularly manifest during the campaigns against the Hindus of the Doab undertaken in 1258-59 CE, and the campaign against the Meos south of Delhi in 1260 CE. The latter expedition, and the ghastly torture and murder of the prisoners he undertook, are described herein. He gradually gained de facto rule under Nâsir-ud dîn Mahműd, who nominated him as his successor. He ruled from 1266 through 1286 CE.
2. Excerpts
Contents
1. Muhammad Bakhtiyar’s assault on Bihar
2. Events during the reign of Sultan Îltutmish
3. Events during the reign of Sultan Nâsir-ud dîn Mahműd
1.
[p. 53]
Malik Ghazi Ikhtiyaru-D Din Muhammad Bakhtiyar Khilji, Of Lakhnauti
It is related that this Muhammad Bakhtiyar was a Khil-ji, of Ghor, of the province of Garmsir. He was a very smart, enterprising, bold, courageous, wise and experienced man. He left his tribe and came to the Court of Sultan Mu’izzu-d din, at Ghaznin, and was placed in the diwan-i ‘arz (office for petitions), but as the chief of that department was not satisfied with him he was dismissed, and proceeded from Ghaznin to Hindustan. When he reached the Court of Delhi, he was again rejected by the chief of the dilvan-i `arz of the city, and so he went [p. 54] on to Badaun, into the service of Hizbaru-d din Hasan, commander-in-Chief, where he obtained a suitable position. After some time he went to Oudh in the service of Malik Hisamu-d din Ughlabak. He had good horses and arms, and he had showed much activity and valour at many places, so he obtained Sahlat and Sahli1 in Jagir. Being a bold and enterprising man he used to make incursions into the districts of Muni (Monghir), and Behar, and bring away much plunder until in this manner he obtained plenty of horses, arms, and men. The fame of his bravery and of his plundering raids spread abroad, and a body of Khiljis joined him from Hindustan. His exploits were reported to Sultan Kutbu-d din, and he sent him a dress and showed him great honour. Being thus encouraged, he led his army to Behar and ravaged it. In this manner he continued for a year or two to plunder the neighbourhood, and at last prepared to invade the country.
It is said by credible persons that he went to the gate of the fort of Behar with only two hundred horse, and began the war by taking the enemy unawares. In the service of Bakhtiyar there were two brothers of great intelligence. One of them was named Nizamu-d din and the other Shamsu-d din. The compiler of this book met Samsu-d din at Lakhnauti in the year 641 H. (1243 A.D.) and heard the following story from him. When Bakhtiyar reached the gate of the fort and fighting began, these two wise brothers were active in that army of heroes. Muhammad Bakhtiyar with great vigour and audacity rushed in at the gate of the fort and gained possession of the place. Great plunder fell into the hands of the victors. Most of the inhabitants of the place were Brahmans with shaven heads. They were put to death. Large numbers of books were found there, and when the Muhammadans saw them they called for some persons [p. 55] to explain their contents, but all the men had been killed. It was discovered that the whole fort and city was a place of study (madrasa). In the Hindi language the word Behar (vihar) means a college.
[Universities and hospitals were concepts conceived and executed by the Muslims. As for the Buddhists, I`m reminded of the lie by a Christian friend of mine that the party of Omar burnt the libraries of Alexandria, whereas it was in fact the Christian Romans. Similarly, an individual, whom I had previously advised to drench his women`s saris to conserve the petrol, is now accusing my faith for something when his own was responsible for massacring and forcing the Buddhists into its fold.]
You will soon be telling us that the Taliban preserved the Bamiyan Buddhas.
Tell me again, please, pretty please with sugar and icing on top, that Islam is a peace-loving religion.
Or how about those beautiful verses in the Koran that exhort Muslims to be tolerant of idol-worshippers?
People like you ought not to be allowed out without adult supervision.
First, about the library at Alexandria:
``The original library - completely destroyed in antiquity, probably in a fire following Caesar`s sacking of the city in 48 BC - was built by Hellenistic king Ptolemy in the beginning of the 3rd century BC. The construction of a great library that would bring together knowledge from cultures and civilizations worldwide was inspired by Alexander the Great`s ideal of unifying the world. The library incorporated and fully catalogued the entire body of known Greek literature as well as Greek translations of works from the Mediterranean, the Middle East and India. Bibliotheca Alexandrina became the world`s first university boasting scholars such as Euclid, Erastosthenes, Heron and Archimedes.``
This happened in 48 BC, which is almost 50 years before Issa bin Mariam was born and some 75 years before he founded Christianity. So there were no ``Christian`` Romans who could have burnt down the Alexandria library, only pagan Romans.
Now, to Nalanda.
Just in case any of you mufukkas want to deny history, here it is, in black and white, as written by a Muslim historian of that era:
Tabakat-i Nasiri of Abu ‘Umar Minhaju-d din, ‘Usman ibn Siraju-d din al Juzjani.
In The History of India as Told by its own Historians. The Posthumous Papers of the Late Sir H. M. Elliot. John Dowson, ed. 1st ed. 1867. 2nd ed., Calcutta: Susil Gupta, 1956, vol. 13.
1. Overview
The Tabakat-i Nasiri is a history of the world from the earliest time to 658 H. (1260 CE). Its author, Abu ‘Umar Minhaju-d din, ‘Usman ibn Siraju-d din al Juzjani, was descended from a noble family of Ghaznî which had been discplaced following the fall of the Ghaznivids. His father, Maulana Siraju-d din, was the qazi of Muhammad Ghori’s army in India. Minhaju-d Siraju-d came to India in 624 H. (1227 CE), and was appointed the director of Firozi College in Uch. In 625 H. (August 1228 CE) entered the service of the Sultan of Delhi, Shamsu-d din Altamish. He resigned during the brief rule Sultan Raziya, but was appointed Qazi of Delhi by her successor, Sultan Bahram Shah, in 639 H. (1241 CE) When the Sultan was slain and deposed later that year, he resigned and retired to Lakhnauti in Bengal. In 642 H. he returned to Delhi, and entered the service of Sultan Nasiru-d din Mahmud in 644 H (1246 CE). It is believed that he outlived by several years the Sultan, who died in 664 H. (1266 CE). The Tabakat-i Nasiri is dedicated to the Sultan, and extends to the fifteenth year of his rule (658 H., 1260 CE).
The first excerpt narrates Muhammad Bakhtiyar’s infamous raid on Bihar and his destruction of Nalanda, which occurred in 1193 CE. This raid was undertaken under the rule of Qutb-ud-dîn Aibak, the de facto ruler of the Ghűrid holdings in Northern India, and the first of Sultan of Delhi following the death of Muhammad Ghűri in 1206 CE.
The second excerpt narrates events during the reign of Sultan Îltutmish. He was the son-in-law of the first sultan of Delhi, Qutb-ud-dîn Airak. Within a year of the latter’s death he deposed his son Ârâm Shâh, and placed himself on the throne, ruling until his death in 1236 CE. The excerpts describe his conquest of Gwailor and Malwa.
The second excerpt contains descriptions of military ventures undertaken by Sultan Nâsir-ud dîn Mahműd, who governed the Delhi sultanate from 1246-1266 CE, and who was a son of Sultan Îltutmish. These ventures were undertaken by his general and successor Ghiyas-ud-dîn Balban, who prior to his reign was commonly called Ulugh Khan. He was noted for his extreme brutality. This was particularly manifest during the campaigns against the Hindus of the Doab undertaken in 1258-59 CE, and the campaign against the Meos south of Delhi in 1260 CE. The latter expedition, and the ghastly torture and murder of the prisoners he undertook, are described herein. He gradually gained de facto rule under Nâsir-ud dîn Mahműd, who nominated him as his successor. He ruled from 1266 through 1286 CE.
2. Excerpts
Contents
1. Muhammad Bakhtiyar’s assault on Bihar
2. Events during the reign of Sultan Îltutmish
3. Events during the reign of Sultan Nâsir-ud dîn Mahműd
1.
[p. 53]
Malik Ghazi Ikhtiyaru-D Din Muhammad Bakhtiyar Khilji, Of Lakhnauti
It is related that this Muhammad Bakhtiyar was a Khil-ji, of Ghor, of the province of Garmsir. He was a very smart, enterprising, bold, courageous, wise and experienced man. He left his tribe and came to the Court of Sultan Mu’izzu-d din, at Ghaznin, and was placed in the diwan-i ‘arz (office for petitions), but as the chief of that department was not satisfied with him he was dismissed, and proceeded from Ghaznin to Hindustan. When he reached the Court of Delhi, he was again rejected by the chief of the dilvan-i `arz of the city, and so he went [p. 54] on to Badaun, into the service of Hizbaru-d din Hasan, commander-in-Chief, where he obtained a suitable position. After some time he went to Oudh in the service of Malik Hisamu-d din Ughlabak. He had good horses and arms, and he had showed much activity and valour at many places, so he obtained Sahlat and Sahli1 in Jagir. Being a bold and enterprising man he used to make incursions into the districts of Muni (Monghir), and Behar, and bring away much plunder until in this manner he obtained plenty of horses, arms, and men. The fame of his bravery and of his plundering raids spread abroad, and a body of Khiljis joined him from Hindustan. His exploits were reported to Sultan Kutbu-d din, and he sent him a dress and showed him great honour. Being thus encouraged, he led his army to Behar and ravaged it. In this manner he continued for a year or two to plunder the neighbourhood, and at last prepared to invade the country.
It is said by credible persons that he went to the gate of the fort of Behar with only two hundred horse, and began the war by taking the enemy unawares. In the service of Bakhtiyar there were two brothers of great intelligence. One of them was named Nizamu-d din and the other Shamsu-d din. The compiler of this book met Samsu-d din at Lakhnauti in the year 641 H. (1243 A.D.) and heard the following story from him. When Bakhtiyar reached the gate of the fort and fighting began, these two wise brothers were active in that army of heroes. Muhammad Bakhtiyar with great vigour and audacity rushed in at the gate of the fort and gained possession of the place. Great plunder fell into the hands of the victors. Most of the inhabitants of the place were Brahmans with shaven heads. They were put to death. Large numbers of books were found there, and when the Muhammadans saw them they called for some persons [p. 55] to explain their contents, but all the men had been killed. It was discovered that the whole fort and city was a place of study (madrasa). In the Hindi language the word Behar (vihar) means a college.
#214 Posted by ferozk on July 21, 2002 11:52:08 am
Re: Umer Murtaza # 214
Roman Christians did not burn the Great Library at Alexanderia. It was burned, accidently, by the fire started by the Roman legions of Julius Caius Caesar on his orders, when he was fighting a civil war in order to consolidate his power in Rome.
Ciao
Roman Christians did not burn the Great Library at Alexanderia. It was burned, accidently, by the fire started by the Roman legions of Julius Caius Caesar on his orders, when he was fighting a civil war in order to consolidate his power in Rome.
Ciao
#213 Posted by Romair on July 20, 2002 6:50:44 pm
Stuka #208: Shankar is too easy a target. I just have to keep him honest, every now and then, to make sure he doesn`t start getting too big for his britches..... :)
#212 Posted by Romair on July 20, 2002 6:50:44 pm
shammi # 205: ?.
I fail to understand what you are trying to get to. Are you attempting to be sarcastic?
Could you point to anyone from the PAF who has ``appropriated`` power. And why would an Indian be concerned with that, anyways?
I fail to understand what you are trying to get to. Are you attempting to be sarcastic?
Could you point to anyone from the PAF who has ``appropriated`` power. And why would an Indian be concerned with that, anyways?
#211 Posted by tahmed321 on July 20, 2002 6:50:44 pm
semipreciousme #191 So your eagle eyes spotted the telltale use of the Redcoat ``u`` in ``neighbours`` by Ferishtah and you write ``you were born and bred in america but use british spellings??``
So, Ferishteh I hope will explain this (to put it gently) ``simplifying exaggeration`` and tell us that actually she came to the US as a college student but it FEELS like she was born here? And will she thereby remove any doubt that she is living up to this unfortunate stereotype Iranian people have with some people in Pakistan that our great neighbors (oops, I meant neigbours)to the west are given (putting it gently again) to making a certain degree of exaggeration? I wonder.
So, Ferishteh I hope will explain this (to put it gently) ``simplifying exaggeration`` and tell us that actually she came to the US as a college student but it FEELS like she was born here? And will she thereby remove any doubt that she is living up to this unfortunate stereotype Iranian people have with some people in Pakistan that our great neighbors (oops, I meant neigbours)to the west are given (putting it gently again) to making a certain degree of exaggeration? I wonder.
#210 Posted by scout on July 20, 2002 6:50:44 pm
suxena #206, ``...don`t worry about scout`s rudeness...most chowkies know she`s little kookoo in the head...``
excuse me jerk, did i give you permission to write my name?
i think not.
excuse me jerk, did i give you permission to write my name?
i think not.
#209 Posted by saminashah on July 20, 2002 6:50:44 pm
Romair,
correction:
With all respect, may I point out that no one disrespects the people who serve their country with honor and dignity, and of course military service people deserve respect.
correction:
With all respect, may I point out that no one disrespects the people who serve their country with honor and dignity, and of course military service people deserve respect.
#208 Posted by Umer Murtaza on July 20, 2002 6:50:44 pm
Universities and hospitals were concepts conceived and executed by the Muslims. As for the Buddhists, I`m reminded of the lie by a Christian friend of mine that the party of Omar burnt the libraries of Alexandria, whereas it was in fact the Christian Romans. Similarly, an individual, whom I had previously advised to drench his women`s saris to conserve the petrol, is now accusing my faith for something when his own was responsible for massacring and forcing the Buddhists into its fold.
Talk about the dravidian calling the kettle black.
Umer M
Talk about the dravidian calling the kettle black.
Umer M
#207 Posted by saminashah on July 20, 2002 6:50:44 pm
Romair,
With all respect, may I point out that no one respects the people who serve their country with honor and dignity, and of course military service people deserve that respect. However, let us not rob them of the choice they made to join the military-and specific monetary and social/political gains are part of the benefits many military people have access to. They are responsible for understanding the meanings of that choice.
So too, are writers and protesters aware of the meanings and risks of their choices. They are aware of being imprisoned for much of their lives and at the mercy of a corrupt judicial system. They are also aware that many people do not care that they are willing to risk their lives for a principle and engage in their battles without guns, troops, military institutional support or even institutionalized recognition. And they also complete actions that they feel are for the greater good of their people, against a more insidious and internal enemy.
With all respect, may I point out that no one respects the people who serve their country with honor and dignity, and of course military service people deserve that respect. However, let us not rob them of the choice they made to join the military-and specific monetary and social/political gains are part of the benefits many military people have access to. They are responsible for understanding the meanings of that choice.
So too, are writers and protesters aware of the meanings and risks of their choices. They are aware of being imprisoned for much of their lives and at the mercy of a corrupt judicial system. They are also aware that many people do not care that they are willing to risk their lives for a principle and engage in their battles without guns, troops, military institutional support or even institutionalized recognition. And they also complete actions that they feel are for the greater good of their people, against a more insidious and internal enemy.
#206 Posted by fawad79 on July 20, 2002 6:50:44 pm
so rsax are you up for some bar hopping or what the offer still stands and for you too askah ?
where do u know about sandanavian chicks?
i have a story.......i was on the train studying for a medicinal chemistry exam i had a while ago. I was goin through my drug cards and this spanish chick plopped next to me and asked me which train it was that was going to nb i told her. Next she goes what are you studying blah blah and then finnally goes , so ur columbian right ...im like no.....puerto rican ......no..... dominican......no finally what r u ????/ im pakistani......
disappointed oh ......well ill see ya later
9-11 ruined my whole game !!!!!!!!
where do u know about sandanavian chicks?
i have a story.......i was on the train studying for a medicinal chemistry exam i had a while ago. I was goin through my drug cards and this spanish chick plopped next to me and asked me which train it was that was going to nb i told her. Next she goes what are you studying blah blah and then finnally goes , so ur columbian right ...im like no.....puerto rican ......no..... dominican......no finally what r u ????/ im pakistani......
disappointed oh ......well ill see ya later
9-11 ruined my whole game !!!!!!!!
#205 Posted by shammi on July 20, 2002 6:50:44 pm
Re: Hobbyty #204
Perhaps the irony of that post escaped you. The author of your elegant cut and paste is a Kashmiri pandit (How do I know? last name gives it away). Now, when was the last time I saw you do a similar cut and paste by a pandit about their ethnic cleansing from the Valley? I don`t remember. I do, however, remember your numerous posts in defence of the unelected APHC that have maintained a stony silence on the subject of ethnic cleansing of pandits.
Perhaps the irony of that post escaped you. The author of your elegant cut and paste is a Kashmiri pandit (How do I know? last name gives it away). Now, when was the last time I saw you do a similar cut and paste by a pandit about their ethnic cleansing from the Valley? I don`t remember. I do, however, remember your numerous posts in defence of the unelected APHC that have maintained a stony silence on the subject of ethnic cleansing of pandits.
#204 Posted by rsaxena on July 20, 2002 1:28:55 pm
re: fawad
...don`t worry about scout`s rudeness...most chowkies know she`s little kookoo in the head...
...as for german chicks, well, first of all they aren`t really scandinavian...and they vary from one region to the next...overall they can be a bit brutish (maybe u like that), esp. bavarian ones...
...don`t worry about scout`s rudeness...most chowkies know she`s little kookoo in the head...
...as for german chicks, well, first of all they aren`t really scandinavian...and they vary from one region to the next...overall they can be a bit brutish (maybe u like that), esp. bavarian ones...
#203 Posted by harimau on July 20, 2002 1:28:55 pm
Ref Mullah321 #: 186
[I think you should relax and enjoy the beautiful tune of the Pakistani national anthem and the enchanting farsi phrases that go with it.]
That is good advice.
[Tomorrow you can do the same with the Indian national anthem without fear of losing your Pakistani patriotism.]
Er... you are likely to get apoplexy listening to the Indian national anthem. It goes:
``Punjab Sindh Gujarat Mahratta
Dravida Utkal Banga``
without making any distinction as to East and West Punjabs or West Bengal and Bangladesh and includes Sindh as part of India.
All part of Advani`s designs on Pakistan.
[I think you should relax and enjoy the beautiful tune of the Pakistani national anthem and the enchanting farsi phrases that go with it.]
That is good advice.
[Tomorrow you can do the same with the Indian national anthem without fear of losing your Pakistani patriotism.]
Er... you are likely to get apoplexy listening to the Indian national anthem. It goes:
``Punjab Sindh Gujarat Mahratta
Dravida Utkal Banga``
without making any distinction as to East and West Punjabs or West Bengal and Bangladesh and includes Sindh as part of India.
All part of Advani`s designs on Pakistan.
#202 Posted by stuka on July 20, 2002 1:28:55 pm
Romair:
``What about the name Amitabh....Does that ring a bell of some sort.....``
Killer man Killer.....I have seen Shankar take your trip for a few months...u just paid him back ..with interest!!!
``What about the name Amitabh....Does that ring a bell of some sort.....``
Killer man Killer.....I have seen Shankar take your trip for a few months...u just paid him back ..with interest!!!
#201 Posted by harimau on July 20, 2002 1:28:55 pm
Ref 12-heads-with-not-an-ounce-of-brain-in-any-of-them #: 175
[She is Parsi ,may be news to you that Pakistani Minorities are happier than Ahmedabad KInd!]
At least in India, minorities do not have to call themselves by Hindu names like Hindus seem to call themselves by Muslim names in Pakistan.
[READ ABOUT ZORASTRIANS IN IRAN HERE
http://www.iranica.com/
AND NOT YOUR PROPOGANDA ABOUT THERE RELATIONSHIP WITH MUSLIMS]
As my Iranian Zorastrian friend said to me, the Indian Zorastrians are more observant than their Iranian counterparts. That is because hordes of Hindus don`t descend on them and accuse them of blasphemy or put the sword to their necks.
Also, Iranian Zorastrians who marry Muslims have to raise their children as Muslims; something Binifer is going to find out shortly even in Pakistan.
So shut up and than India for your medical education.
[She is Parsi ,may be news to you that Pakistani Minorities are happier than Ahmedabad KInd!]
At least in India, minorities do not have to call themselves by Hindu names like Hindus seem to call themselves by Muslim names in Pakistan.
[READ ABOUT ZORASTRIANS IN IRAN HERE
http://www.iranica.com/
AND NOT YOUR PROPOGANDA ABOUT THERE RELATIONSHIP WITH MUSLIMS]
As my Iranian Zorastrian friend said to me, the Indian Zorastrians are more observant than their Iranian counterparts. That is because hordes of Hindus don`t descend on them and accuse them of blasphemy or put the sword to their necks.
Also, Iranian Zorastrians who marry Muslims have to raise their children as Muslims; something Binifer is going to find out shortly even in Pakistan.
So shut up and than India for your medical education.
#200 Posted by shammi on July 20, 2002 1:28:55 pm
Re: Romair
``...They don`t make noise, they don`t write articles, they are not critics, they are not activists...``
That nearly brought tears to my eyes, EXCEPT when I realized that the unlucky ones who never got a chance to offer shahadat, and live life like the rest of us petty mortals, produce that one-in-a-million `leader` who like nothing better than to appropriate power through any means necessary, all in the name of the shaheeds.
``...They don`t make noise, they don`t write articles, they are not critics, they are not activists...``
That nearly brought tears to my eyes, EXCEPT when I realized that the unlucky ones who never got a chance to offer shahadat, and live life like the rest of us petty mortals, produce that one-in-a-million `leader` who like nothing better than to appropriate power through any means necessary, all in the name of the shaheeds.
#199 Posted by hobbyty on July 20, 2002 1:28:55 pm
Fawad
Yet another example of cutting off one`s own nose to spite an enemy - unimaginable that the US could allow this to be done to it:
``ARABS IN U.S. COULD BE HELD, OFFICIAL WARNS
Rights unit member foresees detainment
BY NIRAJ WARIKOO, Detroit Free Press, 7/20/02
http://www.freep.com/news/metro/civil20_20020720.htm
A member of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission said in Detroit on Friday he could foresee a scenario in which the public would demand internment camps
for Arab-Americans if Arab terrorists strike again in this country.
Yet another example of cutting off one`s own nose to spite an enemy - unimaginable that the US could allow this to be done to it:
``ARABS IN U.S. COULD BE HELD, OFFICIAL WARNS
Rights unit member foresees detainment
BY NIRAJ WARIKOO, Detroit Free Press, 7/20/02
http://www.freep.com/news/metro/civil20_20020720.htm
A member of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission said in Detroit on Friday he could foresee a scenario in which the public would demand internment camps
for Arab-Americans if Arab terrorists strike again in this country.