Of Evil Zionists and the Great Satan

Ferozek, Sadan #previous: I agree with pretty much everything Feroze has stated. I think both him and I, view the current political situation, nearly identically.

``How will Musharraf prevent either PPP/PML from winning a large number of seats in the coming elections?``

He cannot prevent this, other than rigging the elections; which he won`t do.

It is impossible to change hundred year old power hold of feudals in three years. He has slowly started denting into it, however.

People consider Musharraf far more naive than he is. He has so far outsmarted every politician in Pakistan. He has been able to get everything approved that he wanted, without having to use military force (barring an odd breakup of a small rally here and there) No politician has been able to get the people against him. Added to this is the fact that the West loves him also. Added to this, he is still the hottest commodity in the South Asian interview circuit.

While the center of Pakistani law-making politics sits in feudal Pakistan (due to the most seats), the center of agitation politics sits in urban Pakistan. No political party can kick out any govt. by striking and causing problems in Larkana, Muzzafargarh and Dera Ghazi Khan. They have to do it in big urban cities Lahore, Karachi, Pindi and Peshawar (and Quetta, to a smaller extent).

Either intentionally or unintentionally, Musharraf has outsmarted all the bigwig ARD politicians in these areas. Urban Sind is completely controlled by MQM. And MQM is a strong and open supporter of Musharraf. He is a fellow Muhajir, after all.

Pushto speaking urban NWFP is divided between PML and ANP (used to be PPP center also). ANP is fully and openly behind Musharraf (they have not supported the Constitutional amendments, but have supported most other actions). PPP has a breakaway faction, which supports Musharraf in NWFP. This leaves just the PML, and that is divided also. However, ANP, with a completely Pushto speaking leadership, is generally considered the rep of Pushto speaking NWFP folks, and carries the most weightage in this area.

Non-Pushto speaking urban NWFP is the base of Asghar Khan`s party (no seats) and PML (QA; the breakaway faction). Both these groups support Musharraf.

Urban Baluchistan is tiny, and under no one`s control. However Quetta (the only urban city there) is the center of the Army and PAF.

This brings us to urban Punjab (the heart of Pakistan). Urban Punjab used to be a PPP stronghold. Until PML, under NS, completely routed the PPP, out of Punjab. The five most influential parties in urban Punjab now are PML(N), PML(QA), PPP and Tehrik and Jamaat. The Jamaat can cause a lot of problems through riots, but never wins a single seat. PML(QA) and Tehrik both solidly support Musharraf. This leaves the PML(N) and PPP, as the opposers (both are feudal based, with urban wings).

PPP and PML(N) hate each other so much, that it is impossible to describe. BB jailed NS`s father. NS jailed BB`s husband. Their speeches against each other are filled with verbal and sometimes physical abuse and vulgarities. Every one, from their feudal MNAs to their misguided student leaders, hate each other. I doubt they can ever unite, for more than a week.

So Musharraf is strong in urban Punjab also. Added to this, all of Potohar (Norh-Western Punjab) and lower NWFP is very strong Army territory. The whole Army is recruited from here.

This means that PPP and PML(N) will have the seats, but they may now all be in rural and feudal Sind and Punjab. They are still the biggest parties, and will get the most seats (since most seats are feudal), but their influence in urban Pakistan is limited now. Due to this, it is only their leaders who have been crying for the removal of Musharraf, while hardly any common person in urban Pakistan has wanted Musharraf`s removal. Even the cynic urban press just wants him to change his amendments/referendum etc. They don`t want him to leave, all together.

Urban Punjab elections will be the key. If PML(N) and PPP can win Lahore and Pindi, then Musharraf is in trouble. But if PML(QA) and Tehrik win there, then he is set.

On the whole, I think he has outsmarted NS, BB and Altaf, without taking any military action. While the average politician is gagged and frustrated, the average Pakistani, from their sleevless shirts to their critical editorials to their ability to write against the maulvis is freer now than it ever was under democratically elected NS and BB. No one from urban America to the average urban Karachiite to Lahoriite is willing to listen to BB and NS, any longer. Pakistani politicians normally launch an agitation at the drop of a hat. If the ARD folks (PPP and PML(N)) felt people would follow them in urban Pakistan, they would have launched an agitation, long ago.

So it is incorrect to think that just because the two largest parties` leaders (PPP and PML(N)) oppose Musharraf, every Pakistani party, and Pakistani, opposes him. The urbanite parties and people generally support him. And as long as they and the Army support him, I don`t think the PPP and PML feudals can do much to get him out.

The PPP, after the last elections, is now only a rural Sindh party. They lost in all urban areas. The PML is a rural Punjab and urban Punjab/NWFP party (due to leadership of urban Sharifs). If Imran Khan`s party wins in urban Punjab, then the true faces of the PML and PPP will be exposed. They will still have the most seats, but will be influential only in rural/feudal Punjab and rural/feudal Sindh, respectively. These are the two largest constituncies in Pakistan. They are also the most backwards constituencies in Pakistan (alongwith tribal Baluchistan, which has very few seats). And these are really the two constituencies that these two, ``largest`` parties belong to. PPP`s feudal face has already been exposed. All its top leadership is now from feudal Sind. PML(N) needs to be exposed also.

I think if urban Punjab kicks out PML(N) and PPP (which has already been kicked out, but may make a comeback), then under the leadership of an urban President, with the urban parties supporting him, the feudals will be in trouble.

P.S. It is a bit of tragedy that the PPP leaders in urban Punjab are now down and out, even within their own party. The only decent politicians I know of, in the PPP, are from urban Punjab. All the PPP feudals (in Punjab and Sind) are useless.

Romair #137
``He has so far outsmarted every politician in Pakistan``.

Romair, its relatively easy to outsmart every politician if the National Assembly and legislatures stand dismissed and no elections are held for three years. The only way a politician could challenge Musharraf during this period was through agitation through political rallies, which he also banned during these three years.

But now elections are called. Will he continue to ban political meetings and rallies? And once members are elected, how will he control them if he opposes them openly now and hence they oppose him later?

Politicians are fickle opportunists and go with the winners, so donot depend on his present supporters remaining with him, if BB or NS win significant seats.

You say urban parties sympathetic to Musharraf and his other supporters will win enough seats to counter PPP/PML victories. How can anyone be sure enough about this to bet the future of the government and its proposed constitution on it? Have any studies or surveys been done that confirm that the results of the election will be favorable to Musharraf?

Is it being considered that if this assumption is wrong(that most of those who win will be Musharraf supporters), then what kind of instability and power tussles may result?

Not talking to or making peace with the two major parties NOW about the post-election scenario, what exactly does Musharraf gain for Pakistan by this?

The military may be a respected institution, but its not omniscient. In 1970 the military government was caught by surprise and totally unprepared for the possibility that the Awami League would win strongly enough to win majority and form the government. In some subsequent year, they couldnot engineer BB`s defeat.

Urstruly

Sincere apologies for late response. You may have misunderstood me, let me clarify:

I am not denying the external factor - it is a fact - what I was suggesting is that there is much that we have control over or exert considerable influence over - Enemies and Adversaries do not necessarily fit under our control or considerable influence - What does however fit is what we can do about ourselves.

Dost Mittar

Read the above - ``our heroes are their villans...`` -- I think Shankar or Shammi said it on this board: ``leave India alone`` - I agree completely and add that Kashmir ought to be resolved by a process of dialogue.

Narain

Your post assumes the Army has already blundered with the amendments - Lets leave this for history to decide - What most of the so caled ``democratic rights`` type on these boards never imagine is that a strong executive is not an aborgation of such ``democratic`` rights, neither is accountablity - The ground work is being laid for a Pakistan that can focus on nation building - Mr. Musharraf and his team may not win all the rounds with the politicians, but it is already clear that Mr. Musharraf and his team have already won over Pakistani public opinion; even after these three years it seems some of the ``democractic`` types to whom, it seems the ``right`` to plunder and apportion Pakistan to their supporters, is what democracy means - have not gauged the public anger at the humiliation and failures - Was the armed forces blameless? How much blame? What difference does it make? the State has been restructured - will it survive? Show me something that has, it is not natural - but what matters is that it will levae Pakistan better prepared to distribute opportunity to it`s citizens and not historicist and obscuritanist policies. Afghanistan was become an imperative for Pakistan, this will not change - the idea of Pakistan, a non-ethnic Pakistan, in which Liberty and the freedom of conscience are fundamental values, is an idea that has only now begun to experience appeal across traditional boundaries.

FerozK # 133

``In that sense, he is indebted to Zia-ul-Haq, who filled ranks of the army with Urdu speaking people with middle class backgrounds and broke the tradtional dominance of Punjab in the army.``

Coming from you,it`s not even funny.Is there any scientific study or just an assumption?

Regards.

Salam to chowkies ,I am a Persian American from Toledo,OH and I was drawn to the powerful conversations held here.

I even have some Kiyani friends from Pakistan who however do not speak Farsi, neither do they look Persian , but I am glad they share our interest in all things Persian.

Anyways thought I would share this tidbit from my friend , Narges who had the following chat with a Gul Mastoi from Pakistan

starts here

Man from Pakistan! ( madlocket4)

Madlocket4: friend I am a pakistani would you talk to me (course, Pakistani? no problem)

Neges yeah sure

Madlocket4: This is my first time to chat with some body (with that nickname!! I don`t believe him, he`s lying! lol)

Nerges this is ur first time? oh right

Madlocket4: could you tell me about yourself

Nerges what do u want to know?

Madlocket4: about yourself, your hobbies etc

Nerges I like dancing, I have brown hair, brown eyes, thin, 5ft6, ...u?

Madlocket4: I have black hair dark brown eyes, not so thin 5.4`` I like travel and music working with an NGO (not so thin? 5ft4? u mean fat and short!?? lol, working with what????)

Nerges oh right, nice (????)

Madlocket4: I am post graduate in social work, travelling all around Pakistan, got training on rural professional at Reading University and visited London, Oxford (he thinks he`s clever!!)

Nerges ok. where are u at the moment? pakistan or england? (haha I bet he expected me to be impressed)

Madlocket4: at present I am at Islamabad, Pakistan and working as Deputy chief for Pakistan

Nerges I`ve never been to pakistan, I`d like to go one day (not really, haven`t thought about it)

Madlocket4: You are welcome here and be my guest this is sincere offer (hey thanks!..but no thanks)

Nerges thank you

Madlocket4: Dear tell me something more about you or more about me (dear!!??, how am I supposed to tell him more about him??? I don`t know him!)

Nerges what do u want to know?

Madlocket4: oh my God how can I explain tell me about your life o.k. (hey! he doesn`t speak english too well! just spotted that...ur not so clever after all!!! hahaha)

Nerges im a Farsi teacher, I like to dance, that`s all I can think of lol

Madlocket4: When you have plan to come to Pakistan?? have you seen other countries also? (not interested in what I said then?...ok lol)

Nerges I have been to Spain, France, Italy, India and Holland. to Pakistan? ermm...don`t know, maybe next summer (nope)

Madlocket4: I have seen Holland and France Amigo do you want to chat more just say good bye (I was taking too long to reply I think)

Nerges I do want to chat

Madlocket4: Why are you not married?? (none of your business!!)

Nerges I was once

Madlocket4: Than what happened?? you are answering my questions just objective examination papers just saying yes and no, come on baby talk in detail (baby??!! ...he`s nosey too!!)

Nerges he found someone else (quick thinking! lol)

Nerges I don`t know why, probably better looking (not so quick that time)

Madlocket4: very sad friend

Nerges yes, oh well

Madlocket4: do you feel that you are not so smart or better looking? (what r u trying to say!??)

Nerges sometimes

Madlocket4: how can I see your good face (u can`t)

Nerges I don`t know I can`t sent u a photo because I don`t have a scanner

Madlocket4: my dear you are really so simple (what!!!!)

Madlocket4: would you kindly note down my adrress and send me your photo, H.No. 9, strett 89, G-6/3, Embassy Road Islamabad Pakistan and my name is Gul Mastoi (haha! He expects me to send a photo to Pakistan!! …maybe it IS his first time on chat)

Madlocket4: note down my email address: (not gonna tell you his email address! that`s evil!)

Nerges ok thanks

Madlocket4: I don`t know how many friends you have but I like your friendship (whatever)

Nerges thank you, I will email you (nope)

Madlocket4: thank you dear how can I chat with you again (u can`t..and stop calling me dear!!)

Nerges I`m on here most days (nope)

Madlocket4: I will try tomorrow and will out of city upto 16th July

Nerges where will you be going?

Madlocket4: I will go to different cities of Pakistan to conduct workshops from 4th july to 16 th july and myself will atend workshop on result based management here fro 18th to 21st july (huh?)

Nerges oh right, ok

Madlocket4: O.K. dear Goodbye I really enjoyed talking with you, I am thankful to you for giving me some time and I hope you will be in touch on email also (in your dreams!!)

Nerges yes, nice talking to you, goodbye

ends here

I also realise the Mastoi belongs to the tribe that performed an unreligious act in Pakistan`s Punjab province.

The Satan has Visa Express for Saudie ......Why should not a SATAN be Called Satan ......Zaidi you r Hypocrite white mans Man Friday

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/?id=110001991

State of Embarrassment

An American journalist is detained because he questioned Foggy Bottom`s Saudi policies.

Monday, July 15, 2002 12:01 a.m. EDT Now we know: The State Department can get tough when it wants to, if only against fellow Americans. National Review writer Joel Mowbray had the temerity at Friday`s press briefing to question State spokesman Richard Boucher about ``Visa Express,`` a program that has made it easier for Saudi Arabian citizens to enter the U.S. without interviews. Mr. Boucher had denied that the U.S. ambassador to Riyadh wanted to terminate Visa Express, even though a classified cable had clearly said otherwise. Mr. Mowbray called the spokesman on his spin, and when the reporter went to leave the building he was detained and questioned by security officers for about 30 minutes. State`s line is that Mr. Mowbray was detained because he`d quoted from classified material, as if that`s any justification. It`s no crime to report such news, only to leak it, and the cable`s contents were reported in both National Review and the Washington Post. Mr. Mowbray`s reporting has embarrassed State, and its officers were clearly engaging in intimidation to dig up the source. It`s the kind of thing they do in, well, Riyadh.Mr. Boucher also continues to humiliate himself by defending Visa Express. Never mind the ambassador`s cable, and Colin Powell`s sacking last week of Mary Ryan, the career diplomat in charge of consular affairs. The firing was a clear effort to placate Congress, which is angry about Visa Express and had threatened to yank State`s visa authority.The Boucher response here is of a piece with State`s refusal to press Saudi Arabia on the plight of American women held in that country against their will. State`s instinct is always to attack Americans who raise questions, instead of pressuring the Saudis on behalf of U.S. interests. All the women need to leave under Saudi law is the permission of their husbands or fathers, which surely the House of Saud can arrange, if the State Department ever bothered to ask. But apparently it`s too busy harassing American journalists.

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Re: Sadna

I do not want Musharraf to prevent the PML and PPP from winning the elections. I would much rather that these parties were to contest the elections unhindered. This way, their true electoral strenghts could be gauged.

Like Romair said, PPP is concentrated in rural Sindh and PML, the Nawaz faction, is urban Punjab based. I am not really worried about these parties winning the elections. In truth, I was always doubtful of their credentials of being national parties, when in reality they are merely provincial parties.

PML represents Punjab and PPP represents Sindh. Neither of these parties ever represented Pakistan. In fact, the majority of the political parties in Pakistan are either provincial minded (in the literal sense of the word) or they are a glorfied extension of a personality cult, but then that has been the bane of Pakistani political history!

Sadna, the best thing that Musharraf can do is to allow a free election and let people judge and elect their candidates. The reason being, that by doing this, the parties will have no excuse of being saying that they were victimized. The Pakistani people are disgusted by the political parties, because these parties use the lexicon of democracy as a justification for inaction and political infighting instead of legislating important issues.

Sadna, do not confuse democracy in Pakistan with the western tradition and assemblies. Pakistan has been more democratic under a dictator than it has been under elected governments.

As a Pakistani, I would much rather have a secure environment to live, with cleaning drinking water and a decent education for my children. If these conditions mean giving up some of consitutional rights, then I am willing to trade, because the bargain is worth it! Democracy is not the alpha and omega of Pakistan`s existence and Pakistan will thrive without democracy, because what Pakistan needs politically, in the present scenrio, is insitutional discipline. If this is ensured by one man rule, then it is better than living democratically under the rule of jungle.

I am a populist by choice; with a firm believe in the dictum that those who give up a little of their freedoms for a little security, end up having neither!

In my case, and Pakistan`s, there is no choice. Either way, we are cursed and we have to accept the bitter reality of our situation, which does not allow the indulgence of a democracy.

Narain was more astute in his observations that Musharraf is not the final solution for all that ails Pakistan, but his reforms might be if they are implemented and allowed to remain implemented, without unneccessary tinkerings. I do not believe in the myth of the man on the horse back and I do not think that Musharraf will remain alive eternally, but what I am hoping is he will be around, as the leader of Pakistan, for a long time to come and will have the luxury of time to implement all the policies he wishes.

I come from a family, which has always told the generals of Pakistan, ``either you are a democrat or a dictator`` and I wish that Musharraf comes out and admits that he is a dictator and does, what needs to be done! I am disappointed in Musharraf in this sense, because I think that he is being badly advised to prove himself as a democrat. I think, and am of the the opinion, that Musharraf`s best political quality and his greatest advantage is that he is a dictator and he should act like one, before it is too late!

Pakistan, if it is to improve does not need to be promised sugar coated dreams, but a swift kick up its collective gludius maximus.

As a Pakistani, I distrust the west and its call for democracy in Pakistan, because I do not trust them and I believe that they do not have a monopoly on what is good for Pakistan.

As a Pakistani, I thank other nations for their interest in promoting democracy in Pakistan and I would urge them to keep their opinions to themselves.

As a Pakistani, I think that we will solve our own problems and fashion our own version of democracy, without importing it from the west.

Sadna, what might be democracy to us might be dictatorship to you and vice versa!

Ciao

Ferozk #143
`` As a Pakistani, I thank other nations for their interest in promoting democracy in Pakistan and I would urge them to keep their opinions to themselves.``

Hey as an Indian I will certainly do so though I feel sure whatever happens India will be blamed for it as has been the Pakistani tradition :).

Re: Ferozk

``…the best thing that Musharraf can do is to allow a free election and let people judge and elect their candidates…"

That begs the `so what?` question. The elected candidates would still be under Musharraf`s thumb and dependent on him for everything - from selecting PMs to defining foreign/defence policies. This is an important issue because Pakistan`s external obligations and defence budget eat up nearly 90% of the national budget. The elected assembly will have little power, if at all any, over only a fraction of national spending. That is not what people want.

A related issue is -- who will call the shots in Pakistan after October? Will it be the PM or Musharraf? This ambiguity is disastrous for managing external affairs because negotiations can only be conducted with principals, and if the PM and the President are at odds (like during the Lahore process), nothing positive will emerge. Once bitten, twice shy foreign negotiators will be reluctant to engage any Pakistan representative earnestly, because they would have no way of knowing if their counterpart can make good on his promises or obligations. Is it any surprise that over hundreds of years, countries have evolved mechanisms that enable only principals to speak with one voice for their country?

``…the Pakistani people are disgusted by the political parties…"

True, but they have also been denied the pleasure of evicting non-performing politicians.

Musharraf is reinforcing Zia`s precedents of trashing constitutional procedure - that constitutional amendments through decree are acceptable. This institutional attack is worse than any gains that Musharraf can possibly deliver. Musharraf is trying to defy the laws of gravity through political contortions and maneuvers that have failed in every society, including Pakistan. There will be a day of reckoning one day, but Musharraf will be long gone by then. His future successor, like Musharraf, will end up blaming past autocrats. When that happens, please do not blame Musharraf then, since you are championing him now.

Regards

Ferozk to Sadna

``Sadna, do not confuse democracy in Pakistan with the western tradition and assemblies.``

How about with the SUBCONTINENTAL ``tradition and assemblies``

Dear Ferozk:

None of my business -- but you have a few wrinkles of contradictions in your otherwise pristine post of -- MY DICTATOR right or wrong.

regards

Farishteh #141 Welcome to chowk. Interesting dialogue. Here is one conversation I had with an Iranian student studying in Panjab University:

Iranian student (I forget his name, will call him Manouch): I flunked the exams. Could I borrow your class notes to take the supplementary exams.

Self: OK. (I dont need them).

Manouch (a few weeks later): I dont understand. I sneaked in your notes to the examination hall and copied the answer word by word. And I failed again.

Self: Show me what you copied and also show me the questions.

(Manouch does so. I soon realize the problem: there was no bearing between the question and the topic of the notes he copied).

So, while the Pakistani man you mention was short and fat, and the Iranian student I ran into was quite tall...but came up very short at the top. No offense to Iranians of course.

sadna #137: Your remarks, to a great deal, are accurate.

There is no perfect solution. I am just trying to point out the best possible solution, under the current situation. It will have its anomolies; some of which you have highlighted correctly.

``Romair, its relatively easy to outsmart every politician if.... agitation through political rallies, which he also banned during these three years.``

I don`t think this is completely correct. Assemblies have been outlawed before. Even the ever powerful Bhutto with his awami backing, and governor`s martial laws was unable to stand up to a massive agitation. And he was as much a dictator, as anyone.

The key is to ensure the public doesn`t rise against Musharraf; specifically in the cities. And that has not happened. There has hardly been any agitations to be broken up.

The most powerful agitational group in Pakistan is the maulvi brigade. And even after Sep 11, the maulvi brigade wasn`t able to cause any problems. They were allowed to agitate to their hearts content.

The rural Pakistanis never agitate. They have too many other problems. It is the urban Pakistanis that agitate. And, at the moment, I don`t think they are interested in agitating for PPP and PML. It is thus only the PPP and PML leaders, who are running from one end to the other, crying foul. This is because, they are begining to see their empires crumble. 100 out of 217 MNAs (I believe) are about to be disqualified due to the graduation condition alone. Others have corruption charges against them. Added to this is the fact, that by law, they will now have to hold elections, at all levels, within their own parties. BB being the lifetime chairperson, isn`t too happy about elections is her own party, I assume.

``Will he continue to ban political meetings and rallies?``

No, the ban will be lifted. Infact, one big one was allowed during the referendum.

``You say urban parties sympathetic to Musharraf and his other supporters will win enough seats to counter PPP/PML victories. How can anyone be sure enough about this to bet the future of the government and its proposed constitution on it? ``

This is not a surity. PPP and PML will still be the largest parties, because they will win all the rural Punjab and Sind seats. And this is the risk, he is taking. He has to take this risk, since he cannot keep Pakistan under Martial Law, forever. A lot will depend on which party wins urban Punjab (Lahore is going to be the deciding factor, I think), as I stated earlier.

``Is it being considered that if this assumption is wrong(that most of those who win will be Musharraf supporters), then what kind of instability and power tussles may result?``

I don`t think most will be Musharraf supporters. PPP and PML will win most of the rural seats. But he is hoping, I think, that urban parties will win in urban Pakistan, and they are his supporters.

This is the big risk, and as you stated, it could go either way.

``Not talking to or making peace with the two major parties NOW about the post-election scenario, what exactly does Musharraf gain for Pakistan by this?``

This is a good point. I think Musharraf has tried to make peace with these two parties. He has repeatedly invited their leaders to talks. They keep refusing. They just have one demand, i.e. BB and NS need to be allowed to participate in the elections.

BB and NS are know robber barons, tax evaders, etc. Just read the Indian papers. Infact, both are in self-exile. They do not want to return to Pakistan, because they know they will have to face the courts. No one kicked BB out. She left at her own will to run away from her now well-documented internatinal corruption charges. And NS left after signing a bond, to avoid court proceedings.

Should he talk to these two thugs? I think it is their parties, which have turned into nothing except the fiefdoms of the Bhuttos and Sharifs, that need to realize that they cannot hold the whole political system hostage, just to hide the corruption of their two leaders.

There are good people in PML and PPP. Unfortunately, BB and NS don`t allow them to come to the top. I think Musharraf is more than willing to talk to the leaders of these parties, who are not involved in any corruption cases.

More on what I think will be the strategy adapted by BB and Musharraf later......

Shankar #135: Do you really expect me to discuss South Asia with someone who does not even know who Madhuri is :-)

I suggest you first figure out the meaning of, ``Dhak Dhak karnay laga,`` before commenting on South Asia.......

ISLAMABAD, July 16: Hard-hitting newspaper editorials warned President Pervez Musharraf today against meddling with the constitution....

The proposed constitutional changes, announced in two packages, have been denounced by some as a death knell for democracy and major political parties and lawyers` bodies have voiced their anger. (Reuters) (Posted @ 14:10 PDT) (DAWN)

From the Time article on Musharaff (and specially cut and pasted to cause Jay to have kittens): ``The world is counting on Musharraf to help steer South and Central Asia from local chaos to regional security, from the brink of Armageddon to Pax Pakistana, and from fundamentalist fervor to secular moderation. ``

If this helps soothe outraged feelings, I may add that regardless of what the world is counting on Musharaff to do, Pakistanis are counting on him to ``merely`` to get Pakistan out of the mess that Paki generals have made by sleeping in the same bed as the mullahs (metaphorically speaking, although it could be literally true for rogue generals like Hamid Gul).

Ferozk #143 You seem to like to be led by the man with the biggest guns, while the rest of us like to elect our leaders and have them beholden to us.

Here is a compromise: You do something to land up in prison and so get your wish to have your freedom taken away. The rest of us can elect some crummy politicians in October, then ridicule them for their incompetence, sometimes even put them behind bars for corruption, and always trash them in the next elections. Just like any normal country. How about it??