How Not to Reform Universities
Pervez Hoodbhoy July 9, 2002
#180 Posted by harimau on August 3, 2002 9:19:41 pm
Ref Mullah321 #: 176
[harimau #173 Yes, we ran short of spices preparing meals for you and your favorite uncle Advani. But never fear - we will replace that chili in your rear end with another one.]
Finally! I have discovered the explanation for your bizarre fascination with the rectal cavity. You must be one of those abducted by aliens in flying saucers and who has been probed anally!
Unless of course you are of those that Solitude writes about; you know, the jamaati types who sodomize innocent boys.
[harimau #173 Yes, we ran short of spices preparing meals for you and your favorite uncle Advani. But never fear - we will replace that chili in your rear end with another one.]
Finally! I have discovered the explanation for your bizarre fascination with the rectal cavity. You must be one of those abducted by aliens in flying saucers and who has been probed anally!
Unless of course you are of those that Solitude writes about; you know, the jamaati types who sodomize innocent boys.
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#179 Posted by sattar2 on August 2, 2002 3:17:02 pm
Adnan (#181):
I am not condemning the entire chain of ullema only the recent ones. Allah promised that He will protect Quran. He did not promise that the ullema will not go astray. This is further supported by the hadith I mentioned.
Signs of ullema becoming corrupt are easy to see just start with divisions in ummah and sectarian violence. The point is made.
On finality
The link I provided explains the context of the ahadith which is ignored by mullah. This context negates finality of prophethood. References from Shah Waliullah are included in the link.
Your argument on the context of khatam has fallen apart but you are in denial. Not my problem. Read my earlier post on this issue to understand weakness of your argument.
On pondering over Allahs creations
You clearly negated Quranic verses and argued in favor of atheism. Again ... not my problem.
Amino acids have been artificially created yes but the probability of such occurrences followed by formation of complex proteins and life as we know it in a few billion years cannot be explained on chance. Incidentally this is consistent with message of Quran that you continue to ignore.
Belief in ghaib is not belief in absurdities. No further comments are necessary.
On Ahmadiyyat your lack of respect for reason and common sense makes it impossible to have an intelligent discourse with you as evidenced by your posts thus far.
Ill repost the last paragraph from my earlier post it is very fitting for you
go ahead continue to have blind faith keep coming up with stuff that has no basis in Quran go ahead and believe in flying monkeys, tooth fairy, and that the sky is made of blue cheese and do not use your god-given faculty to think and reason. This will only produce more jihalaat and is your problem and not mine
I am not condemning the entire chain of ullema only the recent ones. Allah promised that He will protect Quran. He did not promise that the ullema will not go astray. This is further supported by the hadith I mentioned.
Signs of ullema becoming corrupt are easy to see just start with divisions in ummah and sectarian violence. The point is made.
On finality
The link I provided explains the context of the ahadith which is ignored by mullah. This context negates finality of prophethood. References from Shah Waliullah are included in the link.
Your argument on the context of khatam has fallen apart but you are in denial. Not my problem. Read my earlier post on this issue to understand weakness of your argument.
On pondering over Allahs creations
You clearly negated Quranic verses and argued in favor of atheism. Again ... not my problem.
Amino acids have been artificially created yes but the probability of such occurrences followed by formation of complex proteins and life as we know it in a few billion years cannot be explained on chance. Incidentally this is consistent with message of Quran that you continue to ignore.
Belief in ghaib is not belief in absurdities. No further comments are necessary.
On Ahmadiyyat your lack of respect for reason and common sense makes it impossible to have an intelligent discourse with you as evidenced by your posts thus far.
Ill repost the last paragraph from my earlier post it is very fitting for you
go ahead continue to have blind faith keep coming up with stuff that has no basis in Quran go ahead and believe in flying monkeys, tooth fairy, and that the sky is made of blue cheese and do not use your god-given faculty to think and reason. This will only produce more jihalaat and is your problem and not mine
#178 Posted by sattar2 on August 2, 2002 3:17:02 pm
Krashid (#180):
As I said earlier with reference to parthenogenesis what was once clearly beyond human comprehension is slowly moving into the domain of human knowledge and provides a plausible explanation. You call it an unproven guess and a chance occurring. This is exactly my point. I am providing a plausible, chance explanation to account for one birth in billions.
Add to this that we are still learning and do not all that there is to know about parthenogenesis or some similar process. Think of bacteria and viruses that once discovered explain a lot that was once not known.
Occurrence of this phenomenon resulting in virgin birth in humans does not defy kun fayakun. Every atom and bacteria in this universe functions according to commandments and will of Allah. Kun fayakun has much broader meaning and applies not only to virgin birth but to every phenomenon around us whether we know of it or not.
On clubs turning into snakes
My understanding is that Quran uses words that describe this incident as as it appeared to the eye and not that this is how it actually happened in the physical world. The hint here is at hypnosis which was practiced by the magicians in the court of the pharaoh. The encounter between the magicians (actually hypnotists) and Moses was that of mind-control to scare the opponent into submission by making him see dangerous snakes lurking around him.
The magicians were the first ones to cast their spell (hypnosis) and under their influence Moses started to see snakes around him. Mentally Moses was defeated for a while. But Allah commanded Moses to toss his staff and with Allahs help Moses was able to overturn the influence of the spell of the magicians and was able to influence the magicians into seeing bigger snakes around them.
This encounter in a subtle manner hints at the phenomenon of hypnotism and mind-control which has perplexed humans for the longest times.
On a child speaking in lap
This is a metaphor in Arabic language used to describe a person being very wise from a very early age. It should not be interpreted literally.
More on metaphors
In various places Quran calls people swines monkeys and like donkeys. These words are metaphors used to describe the nature of people in question. In one place Quran refers to the wing of mercy of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). This again is a metaphor to show kindness and tenderness in the dear Prophet (pbuh).
On Prophet Adam
He was not the first human on the planet. Humans have evolved slowly over time over billions of years according to the designs and laws put into place by the Almighty. Adam (pbuh) was the first person who was intellectually capable of understanding the basic commandments of Allah and served as a prophet by conveying it to others. He lived approx. 6,000 years ago somewhere around present day Iraq from what I recall.
On Gods will
Gods will forms the basis of everything around us. He has designed this world by His commandments according to His will. He has placed every natural law and mechanism in place and the universe has developed and evolved according to these laws and mechanisms. He constantly reminds us to ponder over His creations and to discover hidden secrets of the world around us. It is this depth and fineness and balance in the universe that lends strong support to the fact that there indeed is a Conscious Creator behind all this.
As I said earlier with reference to parthenogenesis what was once clearly beyond human comprehension is slowly moving into the domain of human knowledge and provides a plausible explanation. You call it an unproven guess and a chance occurring. This is exactly my point. I am providing a plausible, chance explanation to account for one birth in billions.
Add to this that we are still learning and do not all that there is to know about parthenogenesis or some similar process. Think of bacteria and viruses that once discovered explain a lot that was once not known.
Occurrence of this phenomenon resulting in virgin birth in humans does not defy kun fayakun. Every atom and bacteria in this universe functions according to commandments and will of Allah. Kun fayakun has much broader meaning and applies not only to virgin birth but to every phenomenon around us whether we know of it or not.
On clubs turning into snakes
My understanding is that Quran uses words that describe this incident as as it appeared to the eye and not that this is how it actually happened in the physical world. The hint here is at hypnosis which was practiced by the magicians in the court of the pharaoh. The encounter between the magicians (actually hypnotists) and Moses was that of mind-control to scare the opponent into submission by making him see dangerous snakes lurking around him.
The magicians were the first ones to cast their spell (hypnosis) and under their influence Moses started to see snakes around him. Mentally Moses was defeated for a while. But Allah commanded Moses to toss his staff and with Allahs help Moses was able to overturn the influence of the spell of the magicians and was able to influence the magicians into seeing bigger snakes around them.
This encounter in a subtle manner hints at the phenomenon of hypnotism and mind-control which has perplexed humans for the longest times.
On a child speaking in lap
This is a metaphor in Arabic language used to describe a person being very wise from a very early age. It should not be interpreted literally.
More on metaphors
In various places Quran calls people swines monkeys and like donkeys. These words are metaphors used to describe the nature of people in question. In one place Quran refers to the wing of mercy of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). This again is a metaphor to show kindness and tenderness in the dear Prophet (pbuh).
On Prophet Adam
He was not the first human on the planet. Humans have evolved slowly over time over billions of years according to the designs and laws put into place by the Almighty. Adam (pbuh) was the first person who was intellectually capable of understanding the basic commandments of Allah and served as a prophet by conveying it to others. He lived approx. 6,000 years ago somewhere around present day Iraq from what I recall.
On Gods will
Gods will forms the basis of everything around us. He has designed this world by His commandments according to His will. He has placed every natural law and mechanism in place and the universe has developed and evolved according to these laws and mechanisms. He constantly reminds us to ponder over His creations and to discover hidden secrets of the world around us. It is this depth and fineness and balance in the universe that lends strong support to the fact that there indeed is a Conscious Creator behind all this.
#177 Posted by adnan_672 on August 2, 2002 2:00:57 pm
Reply #: 178
sattar2
My comments:
You wrote
``..The chain of ullema has become corrupt indeed. This explains why Muslims are divided into more ......corrupt Jews at the time of the first Messiah (i.e. Issa).Quran is preserved because of Allahs promise. Never did Allah promise that ullema will not go astray. ....``
Comment
Do you not see the CIRCULARITY here. You argue
Premises
1.the chain of Ulema is corrupt
2.the Quran has come to us through this chain
3.In the Quran it is written that it is protected
Conclusion
4.So the Quran is protected
I hope you realize the total absurdity of such a line of reasoning.
You wrote:
``.... there is a hadith that clearly states that the Muslim ullema in the latter days will be like Jews who had gone astray!``
Comments:
There are Many Many Hadith that clearly state the FINALITY OF PROPHETHOOD ok
You wrote:
``...Heres a link to the topic of continuation of prophethood. There are 3 headings the first one expl...``
Comments
My dear fellow have you ever bothered to read the Tafaseer of Shah Waliullah and Ibn Arabi?
I suggest you go and look up the Khatam verse ok.
You have just thrown your own arguments out.
You wrote:
``The argument you presented very forcefully on the context of the verse fell apart. I have highlighted the weakness in your argument and ..``
Comments:
Thats the whole point, I do not believe that what you said weakened my argument ok.
Now lets repeat it once more..
Here are the preceeding verses:
````There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute````
then
```` Those who deliver the messages of Allah and fear Him, and do not fear any one but Allah; and Allah is sufficient to take account.````
And finally the khatam verse
````Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.````
Now then I simply cannot believe that any rational thinking human would say that
1.khatim-un-Nabayyin means Greatest of all Prophets
2.The verses CLEARLY in my view and that of 1400 years of Islamic thought mean that he is the LAST Prophet. ok!!
I fail to see how your GREATEST etc. could be logically filled in
So your translation in my view is
1. Out of context and illogical
2. And as I mentioned also lexicographically incorrect
I hope you see things now!!
You wrote:
``...the Qurnic verses that implore us to ponder over this universe to convince ourselves of existence of Allah Almighty. You argue otherwise try to negate Quran and insist that pondering over Allahs creations is useless andm proves nothing. If you do not have faith in Quran it is your problem not mine.``
Comments:
To get nasty is easy but you only come out badly in an argument by being nasty. Always remember that.
Now I NEVER said that pondering over Allah`s creations is useless, you are putting words in my mouth, another cheap shot but I`ll let it pass, my position is FAITH comes first, then the rest. And FAITH IS JUST THAT ``FAITH``
You wrote:
``I maintain that scientists are unable to explain the formation of even the most basic proteins and chemicals and life-sustaining processes on theory of chance and design by accident. This is completely consistent with the message of Quran that you try to downplay.``
Comments:
You can maintain whatever you like but the point is THIS IS NOT WHAT HAS BEEN SHOWN BY SCIENCE.
Amino acids have been created artificially, (in the 60`s I believe), there is a new science of complexity out there, all answers are NOT known but we can see the direction, as I said you might want to read Paul Davies` ``GOD AND THE NEW PHYSICS`` to get some idea if science.
You wrote:
``On belief
A few things should be taken on belief for example virgin birth till some rational, reasonable explanation is discovered. This is the correct understanding of belief in ghaib. This underscores the truthfulness and beauty of Quran. ... and human experience support no such notions.``
Comments:
So you are doing a pick and choose thing, what fails to fit into the Ahmadiyya belief set is GHAIB the rest .....
You wrote:
``It is reasonable and rational but since you have failed to respect human reasoning as displayed by your posts there is no point in debating this issue with you (hint you are incorrectly interpreting the concept of reincarnation perhaps based on out-of-context quotes in the books on Islam you are reading! wink).``
Comments:
I`ll compose a long post with quotes from YOUR books if you are willing to debate the issue.
Curses and foul mouthing people does nothing for your argument, when will you people learn that.
Adnan
sattar2
My comments:
You wrote
``..The chain of ullema has become corrupt indeed. This explains why Muslims are divided into more ......corrupt Jews at the time of the first Messiah (i.e. Issa).Quran is preserved because of Allahs promise. Never did Allah promise that ullema will not go astray. ....``
Comment
Do you not see the CIRCULARITY here. You argue
Premises
1.the chain of Ulema is corrupt
2.the Quran has come to us through this chain
3.In the Quran it is written that it is protected
Conclusion
4.So the Quran is protected
I hope you realize the total absurdity of such a line of reasoning.
You wrote:
``.... there is a hadith that clearly states that the Muslim ullema in the latter days will be like Jews who had gone astray!``
Comments:
There are Many Many Hadith that clearly state the FINALITY OF PROPHETHOOD ok
You wrote:
``...Heres a link to the topic of continuation of prophethood. There are 3 headings the first one expl...``
Comments
My dear fellow have you ever bothered to read the Tafaseer of Shah Waliullah and Ibn Arabi?
I suggest you go and look up the Khatam verse ok.
You have just thrown your own arguments out.
You wrote:
``The argument you presented very forcefully on the context of the verse fell apart. I have highlighted the weakness in your argument and ..``
Comments:
Thats the whole point, I do not believe that what you said weakened my argument ok.
Now lets repeat it once more..
Here are the preceeding verses:
````There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute````
then
```` Those who deliver the messages of Allah and fear Him, and do not fear any one but Allah; and Allah is sufficient to take account.````
And finally the khatam verse
````Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.````
Now then I simply cannot believe that any rational thinking human would say that
1.khatim-un-Nabayyin means Greatest of all Prophets
2.The verses CLEARLY in my view and that of 1400 years of Islamic thought mean that he is the LAST Prophet. ok!!
I fail to see how your GREATEST etc. could be logically filled in
So your translation in my view is
1. Out of context and illogical
2. And as I mentioned also lexicographically incorrect
I hope you see things now!!
You wrote:
``...the Qurnic verses that implore us to ponder over this universe to convince ourselves of existence of Allah Almighty. You argue otherwise try to negate Quran and insist that pondering over Allahs creations is useless andm proves nothing. If you do not have faith in Quran it is your problem not mine.``
Comments:
To get nasty is easy but you only come out badly in an argument by being nasty. Always remember that.
Now I NEVER said that pondering over Allah`s creations is useless, you are putting words in my mouth, another cheap shot but I`ll let it pass, my position is FAITH comes first, then the rest. And FAITH IS JUST THAT ``FAITH``
You wrote:
``I maintain that scientists are unable to explain the formation of even the most basic proteins and chemicals and life-sustaining processes on theory of chance and design by accident. This is completely consistent with the message of Quran that you try to downplay.``
Comments:
You can maintain whatever you like but the point is THIS IS NOT WHAT HAS BEEN SHOWN BY SCIENCE.
Amino acids have been created artificially, (in the 60`s I believe), there is a new science of complexity out there, all answers are NOT known but we can see the direction, as I said you might want to read Paul Davies` ``GOD AND THE NEW PHYSICS`` to get some idea if science.
You wrote:
``On belief
A few things should be taken on belief for example virgin birth till some rational, reasonable explanation is discovered. This is the correct understanding of belief in ghaib. This underscores the truthfulness and beauty of Quran. ... and human experience support no such notions.``
Comments:
So you are doing a pick and choose thing, what fails to fit into the Ahmadiyya belief set is GHAIB the rest .....
You wrote:
``It is reasonable and rational but since you have failed to respect human reasoning as displayed by your posts there is no point in debating this issue with you (hint you are incorrectly interpreting the concept of reincarnation perhaps based on out-of-context quotes in the books on Islam you are reading! wink).``
Comments:
I`ll compose a long post with quotes from YOUR books if you are willing to debate the issue.
Curses and foul mouthing people does nothing for your argument, when will you people learn that.
Adnan
#176 Posted by krashid on August 2, 2002 12:23:47 am
Sattar 2#
I think a lesson in genetics will help.
There is no Y chromosome in female.
So question of male child is absurd, as you have mentioned that theoretically XX or female child can be born. (This is also unproven and at best can be a guess)
God said in Koran.
It is easy for HIM, to do this. ``Kun Fayakun``.
That means HE said and it happened.
What you are describing is a chance.
My point is God`s will is there at that particular moment for it to happen.
Moreover as I said ``Pure is the God who took his servant in one night from Masjid-e-Aqsa to Masjid-ul-Haram`` is clearly a God`s will.
There are many places in Koran where miracles like splitting of moon, changing of club into snake by moses. Speaking by child in lap etc, which clearly defy the logic.
As I said, I can agree with you that there might be some principles, which we don`t know now, and we may know better in future.
But God`s will is manifest by the words of Koran for example.
Birth of jesus is like birth of Adam, HE said ``Kun Fayakun`` and it happened.
Pure is the God who took his servant in one night.
etc etc.
God`s will is supreme
This is the most important and for me almost all the religion to belief in God without making partners to it.
Ibrahim is mentioned in Quran as true Muslim with explanation.
He did not make partners with God.
I think a lesson in genetics will help.
There is no Y chromosome in female.
So question of male child is absurd, as you have mentioned that theoretically XX or female child can be born. (This is also unproven and at best can be a guess)
God said in Koran.
It is easy for HIM, to do this. ``Kun Fayakun``.
That means HE said and it happened.
What you are describing is a chance.
My point is God`s will is there at that particular moment for it to happen.
Moreover as I said ``Pure is the God who took his servant in one night from Masjid-e-Aqsa to Masjid-ul-Haram`` is clearly a God`s will.
There are many places in Koran where miracles like splitting of moon, changing of club into snake by moses. Speaking by child in lap etc, which clearly defy the logic.
As I said, I can agree with you that there might be some principles, which we don`t know now, and we may know better in future.
But God`s will is manifest by the words of Koran for example.
Birth of jesus is like birth of Adam, HE said ``Kun Fayakun`` and it happened.
Pure is the God who took his servant in one night.
etc etc.
God`s will is supreme
This is the most important and for me almost all the religion to belief in God without making partners to it.
Ibrahim is mentioned in Quran as true Muslim with explanation.
He did not make partners with God.
#175 Posted by krashid on August 2, 2002 12:23:47 am
Sattar 2#
I think a lesson in genetics will help.
There is no Y chromosome in female.
So question of male child is absurd, as you have mentioned that theoretically XX or female child can be born. (This is also unproven and at best can be a guess)
God said in Koran.
It is easy for HIM, to do this. ``Kun Fayakun``.
That means HE said and it happened.
What you are describing is a chance.
My point is God`s will is there at that particular moment for it to happen.
Moreover as I said ``Pure is the God who took his servant in one night from Masjid-e-Aqsa to Masjid-ul-Haram`` is clearly a God`s will.
There are many places in Koran where miracles like splitting of moon, changing of club into snake by moses. Speaking by child in lap etc, which clearly defy the logic.
As I said, I can agree with you that there might be some principles, which we don`t know now, and we may know better in future.
But God`s will is manifest by the words of Koran for example.
Birth of jesus is like birth of Adam, HE said ``Kun Fayakun`` and it happened.
Pure is the God who took his servant in one night.
etc etc.
God`s will is supreme
This is the most important and for me almost all the religion to belief in God without making partners to it.
Ibrahim is mentioned in Quran as true Muslim with explanation.
He did not make partners with God.
I think a lesson in genetics will help.
There is no Y chromosome in female.
So question of male child is absurd, as you have mentioned that theoretically XX or female child can be born. (This is also unproven and at best can be a guess)
God said in Koran.
It is easy for HIM, to do this. ``Kun Fayakun``.
That means HE said and it happened.
What you are describing is a chance.
My point is God`s will is there at that particular moment for it to happen.
Moreover as I said ``Pure is the God who took his servant in one night from Masjid-e-Aqsa to Masjid-ul-Haram`` is clearly a God`s will.
There are many places in Koran where miracles like splitting of moon, changing of club into snake by moses. Speaking by child in lap etc, which clearly defy the logic.
As I said, I can agree with you that there might be some principles, which we don`t know now, and we may know better in future.
But God`s will is manifest by the words of Koran for example.
Birth of jesus is like birth of Adam, HE said ``Kun Fayakun`` and it happened.
Pure is the God who took his servant in one night.
etc etc.
God`s will is supreme
This is the most important and for me almost all the religion to belief in God without making partners to it.
Ibrahim is mentioned in Quran as true Muslim with explanation.
He did not make partners with God.
#174 Posted by sattar2 on August 2, 2002 12:23:47 am
Adnan (#174):
The chain of ullema has become corrupt indeed. This explains why Muslims are divided into more than 70 sects with deep-rooted sectarian differences sectarian violence and the general backward state of Muslims all over the world. You can deny this all you want but these facts speak for themselves. The ullema have gone astray and become divided just like the corrupt Jews at the time of the first Messiah (i.e. Issa).
Quran is preserved because of Allahs promise. Never did Allah promise that ullema will not go astray. This again is a leap of faith you are taking by confusing Quran with the ullema! Yes indeed there is a hadith that clearly states that the Muslim ullema in the latter days will be like Jews who had gone astray!
Heres a link to the topic of continuation of prophethood. There are 3 headings the first one explains the misunderstood ahadith, the third one has references from other scholars.
(http://www.alislam.org/library/finality.html)
On the issue of khatam
The argument you presented very forcefully on the context of the verse fell apart. I have highlighted the weakness in your argument and you have not been able to respond. Once you accept the obvious flaw in your reasoning then we can move forward.
Allah being All Powerful and All Merciful
The point is made. The only way you have argued is by taking the position of an atheist. You have ignored the Qurnic verses that implore us to ponder over this universe to convince ourselves of existence of Allah Almighty. You argue otherwise try to negate Quran and insist that pondering over Allahs creations is useless and proves nothing. If you do not have faith in Quran it is your problem not mine.
On evolution
I maintain that scientists are unable to explain the formation of even the most basic proteins and chemicals and life-sustaining processes on theory of chance and design by accident. This is completely consistent with the message of Quran that you try to downplay.
On belief
A few things should be taken on belief for example virgin birth till some rational, reasonable explanation is discovered. This is the correct understanding of belief in ghaib. This underscores the truthfulness and beauty of Quran. However this is not an open ticket to believing in irrational ideas and fairy tales esp. when Quran and human experience support no such notions.
On Ahmadiyyat
It is reasonable and rational but since you have failed to respect human reasoning as displayed by your posts there is no point in debating this issue with you (hint you are incorrectly interpreting the concept of reincarnation perhaps based on out-of-context quotes in the books on Islam you are reading! wink).
Finally go ahead continue to have blind, senseless faith keep coming up with stuff that has no basis in Quran go ahead and believe in flying monkeys, tooth fairy, and that the sky is made of blue cheese and do not use your god-given faculty to think and reason. This will only produce more jihalaat and is your problem and not mine. Good luck.
The chain of ullema has become corrupt indeed. This explains why Muslims are divided into more than 70 sects with deep-rooted sectarian differences sectarian violence and the general backward state of Muslims all over the world. You can deny this all you want but these facts speak for themselves. The ullema have gone astray and become divided just like the corrupt Jews at the time of the first Messiah (i.e. Issa).
Quran is preserved because of Allahs promise. Never did Allah promise that ullema will not go astray. This again is a leap of faith you are taking by confusing Quran with the ullema! Yes indeed there is a hadith that clearly states that the Muslim ullema in the latter days will be like Jews who had gone astray!
Heres a link to the topic of continuation of prophethood. There are 3 headings the first one explains the misunderstood ahadith, the third one has references from other scholars.
(http://www.alislam.org/library/finality.html)
On the issue of khatam
The argument you presented very forcefully on the context of the verse fell apart. I have highlighted the weakness in your argument and you have not been able to respond. Once you accept the obvious flaw in your reasoning then we can move forward.
Allah being All Powerful and All Merciful
The point is made. The only way you have argued is by taking the position of an atheist. You have ignored the Qurnic verses that implore us to ponder over this universe to convince ourselves of existence of Allah Almighty. You argue otherwise try to negate Quran and insist that pondering over Allahs creations is useless and proves nothing. If you do not have faith in Quran it is your problem not mine.
On evolution
I maintain that scientists are unable to explain the formation of even the most basic proteins and chemicals and life-sustaining processes on theory of chance and design by accident. This is completely consistent with the message of Quran that you try to downplay.
On belief
A few things should be taken on belief for example virgin birth till some rational, reasonable explanation is discovered. This is the correct understanding of belief in ghaib. This underscores the truthfulness and beauty of Quran. However this is not an open ticket to believing in irrational ideas and fairy tales esp. when Quran and human experience support no such notions.
On Ahmadiyyat
It is reasonable and rational but since you have failed to respect human reasoning as displayed by your posts there is no point in debating this issue with you (hint you are incorrectly interpreting the concept of reincarnation perhaps based on out-of-context quotes in the books on Islam you are reading! wink).
Finally go ahead continue to have blind, senseless faith keep coming up with stuff that has no basis in Quran go ahead and believe in flying monkeys, tooth fairy, and that the sky is made of blue cheese and do not use your god-given faculty to think and reason. This will only produce more jihalaat and is your problem and not mine. Good luck.
#173 Posted by sattar2 on August 1, 2002 7:29:28 pm
Krashid (#175):
On virgin-birth
On parthenogenesis my emphasis is that what was once clearly beyond human comprehension is slowly moving into the domain of human knowledge and provides a plausible explanation. And on top of that we are still learning and discovering more every day. This hint at virgin-birth a hidden scientific principle when Quran was revealed is a powerful proof of Qurans truthfulness. It shows that Mohammed could not have authored Quran 1400 years ago!
On miracles
My contention is that people knew incorrectly about miracles from prophets i.e. they were misinformed on the issue. This is an example of a message getting twisted as it is passed on from one generation to another. Embellishments and ones own beliefs cause slight twists in the message which over time gets bent out of shape.
Case in point is the divisions in Islam. Quran is the same but there exists numerous sects each with a different interpretation, understanding, and emphasis on Quran, hadith, sunnah, science, jihad and so on. For example shias believe in some imam that has been in hiding in some cave for a thousand or so years sunnis negate this and themselves believe in various similar notions some sects have more or less done away with salaat some do not believe in zakaat etc. etc. Same man Issa that you believe to be a human is claimed to be Son of God by 2 billion people today. Bible accuses Prophet Lot of incest with his daughters ... whereas Quran emphatacally denies such notions. I hope you see how ideas get twisted over time.
This is further illustrated in the case of people expecting physical descent of Elijah. But Issa corrected them that Elijah will not return and Yahya has come in the spirit of Elijah. People who understood this accepted Issa as the promised messiah of their times.
Prophet (pbuh) stating that Am I not a mortal a messenger is preceded by Glorious is my Lord. This implies that Lord is Glorious it is not consistent with His Grandeur and Majesty to resort to tricks to convince people of His existence to find Lord look at His creations look at the signs of support for His prophet (pbuh) look at the depth of His message of Quran search within your heart and youll surely find him This is consistent with the overall message of Quran.
Furthermore if Allah had willed to show physical miracles to convince people of His existence Quran would have commanded the Prophet to say Indeed Powerful is my Lord I am only a human but go ahead ask Lord to show you physical miracles just like He showed miracles for other prophets. But clearly that is not the case.
Regarding Issas ascension
As I have pointed out interpreting this ascent in physical form raises contradictions in the very verse by limiting Allah to a physical entity and associating the upward direction where He resides. It raises similar contradictions in other verses in Quran involving Issa which I have not mentioned yet.
Quran indeed is a miracle since it contains signs of its own truthfulness that no one can rationally deny. It was revealed to the dear Prophet in the form of visions and wahi. This again is not an irrational miracle and does not violate any natural laws.
Gods will is supreme but it does not violate His own laws. The miracle in survival of Jesus is not that of his physical ascension but rather his survival, regaining consciousness and strength, and escaping and successfully preaching the message of Allah to the people against all odds is the miracle which makes one awe-struck by the Power and Glory of Allah.
There are several versions of Issas crucifixion some state that he was lifted to the sky before being put on the cross some state that a face-change took place and someone else was put on the cross in his place some state that he was killed first and his dead body was put on the cross which was later lifted to the sky and so on and so forth.
All these explanations are based upon speculation and contradict natural laws and various verses in Quran. The explanation that I provided does not result in any contradictions fits with the message of Quran and makes the whole issue make sense. I hope you can appreciate this perhaps not immediately but eventually.
On virgin-birth
On parthenogenesis my emphasis is that what was once clearly beyond human comprehension is slowly moving into the domain of human knowledge and provides a plausible explanation. And on top of that we are still learning and discovering more every day. This hint at virgin-birth a hidden scientific principle when Quran was revealed is a powerful proof of Qurans truthfulness. It shows that Mohammed could not have authored Quran 1400 years ago!
On miracles
My contention is that people knew incorrectly about miracles from prophets i.e. they were misinformed on the issue. This is an example of a message getting twisted as it is passed on from one generation to another. Embellishments and ones own beliefs cause slight twists in the message which over time gets bent out of shape.
Case in point is the divisions in Islam. Quran is the same but there exists numerous sects each with a different interpretation, understanding, and emphasis on Quran, hadith, sunnah, science, jihad and so on. For example shias believe in some imam that has been in hiding in some cave for a thousand or so years sunnis negate this and themselves believe in various similar notions some sects have more or less done away with salaat some do not believe in zakaat etc. etc. Same man Issa that you believe to be a human is claimed to be Son of God by 2 billion people today. Bible accuses Prophet Lot of incest with his daughters ... whereas Quran emphatacally denies such notions. I hope you see how ideas get twisted over time.
This is further illustrated in the case of people expecting physical descent of Elijah. But Issa corrected them that Elijah will not return and Yahya has come in the spirit of Elijah. People who understood this accepted Issa as the promised messiah of their times.
Prophet (pbuh) stating that Am I not a mortal a messenger is preceded by Glorious is my Lord. This implies that Lord is Glorious it is not consistent with His Grandeur and Majesty to resort to tricks to convince people of His existence to find Lord look at His creations look at the signs of support for His prophet (pbuh) look at the depth of His message of Quran search within your heart and youll surely find him This is consistent with the overall message of Quran.
Furthermore if Allah had willed to show physical miracles to convince people of His existence Quran would have commanded the Prophet to say Indeed Powerful is my Lord I am only a human but go ahead ask Lord to show you physical miracles just like He showed miracles for other prophets. But clearly that is not the case.
Regarding Issas ascension
As I have pointed out interpreting this ascent in physical form raises contradictions in the very verse by limiting Allah to a physical entity and associating the upward direction where He resides. It raises similar contradictions in other verses in Quran involving Issa which I have not mentioned yet.
Quran indeed is a miracle since it contains signs of its own truthfulness that no one can rationally deny. It was revealed to the dear Prophet in the form of visions and wahi. This again is not an irrational miracle and does not violate any natural laws.
Gods will is supreme but it does not violate His own laws. The miracle in survival of Jesus is not that of his physical ascension but rather his survival, regaining consciousness and strength, and escaping and successfully preaching the message of Allah to the people against all odds is the miracle which makes one awe-struck by the Power and Glory of Allah.
There are several versions of Issas crucifixion some state that he was lifted to the sky before being put on the cross some state that a face-change took place and someone else was put on the cross in his place some state that he was killed first and his dead body was put on the cross which was later lifted to the sky and so on and so forth.
All these explanations are based upon speculation and contradict natural laws and various verses in Quran. The explanation that I provided does not result in any contradictions fits with the message of Quran and makes the whole issue make sense. I hope you can appreciate this perhaps not immediately but eventually.
#172 Posted by tahmed321 on August 1, 2002 12:19:37 pm
harimau #173 Yes, we ran short of spices preparing meals for you and your favorite uncle Advani. But never fear - we will replace that chili in your rear end with another one.
#171 Posted by krashid on August 1, 2002 12:19:37 pm
Sattar 2#
I am not sarcastic at all.
You are trying very knowledgeably to put parthenogenesis and artenoblastoma. I am only correcting you.
As far as miracles.
The is no doubt that people would ask miracles from prophet PBUH. Because THEY KNEW previous prophets performed miracles.
And he answere that I am servant of God. Miracles are not performed by prophet or human. Only God can perform miracles.
The Ayah ``PURE is the God`` ``Paak Hai Woh Zaat`` in itself indicates that it was supposed to be denied by people in Meccah. That is why it is represented as such.
On the matter of miracles, I only can agree with you only on one point. They may be related to some phenomenon which we do not yet know. But it would not deny the God`s will.
That means I will only accept if in interpreting those Ayah, God`s will is supreme.
And that is the miracle.
For example when I say Quran is a miracle, I referred to you many challeneges by Quran. Including its preservation and any Ayah similar to it.
Ahad. LaIlaha Illallah is Islam.
I am not sarcastic at all.
You are trying very knowledgeably to put parthenogenesis and artenoblastoma. I am only correcting you.
As far as miracles.
The is no doubt that people would ask miracles from prophet PBUH. Because THEY KNEW previous prophets performed miracles.
And he answere that I am servant of God. Miracles are not performed by prophet or human. Only God can perform miracles.
The Ayah ``PURE is the God`` ``Paak Hai Woh Zaat`` in itself indicates that it was supposed to be denied by people in Meccah. That is why it is represented as such.
On the matter of miracles, I only can agree with you only on one point. They may be related to some phenomenon which we do not yet know. But it would not deny the God`s will.
That means I will only accept if in interpreting those Ayah, God`s will is supreme.
And that is the miracle.
For example when I say Quran is a miracle, I referred to you many challeneges by Quran. Including its preservation and any Ayah similar to it.
Ahad. LaIlaha Illallah is Islam.
#170 Posted by adnan_672 on August 1, 2002 12:19:37 pm
sattar2
My comments on your observations``
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``The chain of ullema spreading over 1400 years has become corrupt and is no longer serving the cause of Islam. This explains the present miserable state of Muslims all across the world. They are no longer following the message of Quran and are suffering for their rebellion against Allah. Does the sound adequate ?``
MY COMMENT:
NO it does not. The Quran has come to us form the same chain ok!! How can you trust one and not the other?
Muslims are miserable bcos the bulk of common muslims have stopped following the Quran.
And btw this DOES NOT constitute an argument on your part!
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``..Muslim scholars have debated the possibility of coming of future prophets throughout the history and some renowned scholars have agreed that the door to non-law bearing prophethood remains open.......``
MY COMMENT:
Nonsense! Muslim scholars NEVER did that. ok
The reason is simple Finality of Prophethood is proven in the Quran and also many many Hadith. Would you kindly list some of these GREAT SCHOLARS
Moreover as soon as ANYONE claimed Prophethood right from the time of Sahaba RA (be it Musailmah or Bahauddin or Mirza Sahib) the muslims waged war against them, there was no question of asking them for proofs etc. Please read a bit of Islamic History.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``On khatam
I highlighted the weakness in your argument on interpreting khatam as last by showing that you are placing more importance on prophets marriage than his other bigger accomplishments ......the khatam verse. Now that your argument is not holding up you want to introduce Maudoodis Arabic grammar! I explained the context of this verse in details earlier when you first challenged me. But you could not come up with an argument "
MY COMMENT:
Mr Sattar by repeating ad nauseam I WON I WON I WON you simply come out as immature, this is not the way to argue, I`ll ignore it this time though ok
As to the issue of Khatam there are SEVERAL reasons for rejecting Mirza Sahibs claim as have Ulema done, one is the context issue, arabic lexicography is another, etc
Now if I point out other reasons as well as the context one I fail to understand whats wrong with it???
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``On the issue of Allah being All Powerful and Merciful "
MY COMMENT:
Mr Sattar the only reason I brought up this isswue was bcos you were harping on LOGICAL LOGICAL ok!!
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``See now in order to try to prove me wrong you have taken the position of an atheist!``
MY COMMENT:
No I have NOT. Do you read stuff while sleeping??
I was simply pointing out that some things have to be Believed you cant really justify them.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``And now you are telling me that Qurans message is not correct that pondering over Allah creations serves no purpose "
MY OBSERVATION:
I am NOT, do not put words into my mouth, I expect you to be intellectually honest in any discussion. You knew the context I was talking in.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``To prove me wrong you insist that there is no Hand of Allah in creation of life it all just happened!``
MY COMMENT:
I do not insist on this, I am saying this is a point of view you cannot refute, we need to take a LEAP OF FAITH ok!!
YOUR OBSERVATION:
`` Sahib Allah is the Creator of this universe and He challenges us to come up with alternative theories of the creation. The scientist community while insisting on absence of an intelligent creator are unable to explain the evolution that has taken place in only a few billion years resulting in formation of highly complex life as we know it.``
MY COMMENT:
Rubbish, this shows you have NO IDEA of the theory of evolution, for your education read the transcripts of the ``SCOPES TRIAL`` you can find them online, you`ll find enough scientific evidence ok.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
`` Those who are wronged in this world will be compensated in the hereafter. Quran repeatedly reminds us of this. Allah is able to compensate those who sacrificed on His behalf BECAUSE He is All Powerful and All Merciful! ``
MY COMMENT:
You miss the argument because you are not prepared to think about it, I`ll put it in a form easier to understand
WHY DOES HE NEED TO DO THIS? WHY NOT KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY HERE? WHY THIS GAME?
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``Whats the point of debating any issue with you if you clearly contradict the basic theme of Quran insist that religion can have no rationality and faith is a completely blind leap of faith!``
MY COMMENT:
My position is some basic things in religion are a leap of faith ok. The rest is logical.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``With such a thought process what can I possibly discuss with you??? This has nothing to do with whether I am an Ahmadi or not.``
MY COMMENT:
The thing is you push the view LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC which you cant prove yourself, making sweeping statements is nor PROOF ok. Your being Ahmadi is important bcos Ahmadiyyat starts from a non sensical idea that Mirza Sahib is the reincarnation of Prphet Mohammad SAW ok
So when it come to Ahmadiyyat no logic is required
IS this a contradiction or what?
Now Mr Sattar maybe you are a dyslexic so here are my arguments in few sentences
1. Not everything in religion can be proven, some things have to be BELIEVED
2. To prove (1) I out forward the Atheist/Agnostic point of view NOT that I support it, but just to prove (1)
3. After (1) when we BELIEVE in an all powerful GOD miracles are easy to understand
4. And since this post is NOT on science I`ll spare you on making the statement WITHOUT examples that many scinetific things were proved in the Quran before being discovered in SCIENCE, but think about it, IS IT TRUE? No! not for physical science, bcos Quran is NOT a book of science GOT IT?
Finally NEVER in an argument try to cheat by misquoting people as you did in this post, people lose respect for you
Adnan
My comments on your observations``
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``The chain of ullema spreading over 1400 years has become corrupt and is no longer serving the cause of Islam. This explains the present miserable state of Muslims all across the world. They are no longer following the message of Quran and are suffering for their rebellion against Allah. Does the sound adequate ?``
MY COMMENT:
NO it does not. The Quran has come to us form the same chain ok!! How can you trust one and not the other?
Muslims are miserable bcos the bulk of common muslims have stopped following the Quran.
And btw this DOES NOT constitute an argument on your part!
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``..Muslim scholars have debated the possibility of coming of future prophets throughout the history and some renowned scholars have agreed that the door to non-law bearing prophethood remains open.......``
MY COMMENT:
Nonsense! Muslim scholars NEVER did that. ok
The reason is simple Finality of Prophethood is proven in the Quran and also many many Hadith. Would you kindly list some of these GREAT SCHOLARS
Moreover as soon as ANYONE claimed Prophethood right from the time of Sahaba RA (be it Musailmah or Bahauddin or Mirza Sahib) the muslims waged war against them, there was no question of asking them for proofs etc. Please read a bit of Islamic History.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``On khatam
I highlighted the weakness in your argument on interpreting khatam as last by showing that you are placing more importance on prophets marriage than his other bigger accomplishments ......the khatam verse. Now that your argument is not holding up you want to introduce Maudoodis Arabic grammar! I explained the context of this verse in details earlier when you first challenged me. But you could not come up with an argument "
MY COMMENT:
Mr Sattar by repeating ad nauseam I WON I WON I WON you simply come out as immature, this is not the way to argue, I`ll ignore it this time though ok
As to the issue of Khatam there are SEVERAL reasons for rejecting Mirza Sahibs claim as have Ulema done, one is the context issue, arabic lexicography is another, etc
Now if I point out other reasons as well as the context one I fail to understand whats wrong with it???
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``On the issue of Allah being All Powerful and Merciful "
MY COMMENT:
Mr Sattar the only reason I brought up this isswue was bcos you were harping on LOGICAL LOGICAL ok!!
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``See now in order to try to prove me wrong you have taken the position of an atheist!``
MY COMMENT:
No I have NOT. Do you read stuff while sleeping??
I was simply pointing out that some things have to be Believed you cant really justify them.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``And now you are telling me that Qurans message is not correct that pondering over Allah creations serves no purpose "
MY OBSERVATION:
I am NOT, do not put words into my mouth, I expect you to be intellectually honest in any discussion. You knew the context I was talking in.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``To prove me wrong you insist that there is no Hand of Allah in creation of life it all just happened!``
MY COMMENT:
I do not insist on this, I am saying this is a point of view you cannot refute, we need to take a LEAP OF FAITH ok!!
YOUR OBSERVATION:
`` Sahib Allah is the Creator of this universe and He challenges us to come up with alternative theories of the creation. The scientist community while insisting on absence of an intelligent creator are unable to explain the evolution that has taken place in only a few billion years resulting in formation of highly complex life as we know it.``
MY COMMENT:
Rubbish, this shows you have NO IDEA of the theory of evolution, for your education read the transcripts of the ``SCOPES TRIAL`` you can find them online, you`ll find enough scientific evidence ok.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
`` Those who are wronged in this world will be compensated in the hereafter. Quran repeatedly reminds us of this. Allah is able to compensate those who sacrificed on His behalf BECAUSE He is All Powerful and All Merciful! ``
MY COMMENT:
You miss the argument because you are not prepared to think about it, I`ll put it in a form easier to understand
WHY DOES HE NEED TO DO THIS? WHY NOT KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY HERE? WHY THIS GAME?
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``Whats the point of debating any issue with you if you clearly contradict the basic theme of Quran insist that religion can have no rationality and faith is a completely blind leap of faith!``
MY COMMENT:
My position is some basic things in religion are a leap of faith ok. The rest is logical.
YOUR OBSERVATION:
``With such a thought process what can I possibly discuss with you??? This has nothing to do with whether I am an Ahmadi or not.``
MY COMMENT:
The thing is you push the view LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC which you cant prove yourself, making sweeping statements is nor PROOF ok. Your being Ahmadi is important bcos Ahmadiyyat starts from a non sensical idea that Mirza Sahib is the reincarnation of Prphet Mohammad SAW ok
So when it come to Ahmadiyyat no logic is required
IS this a contradiction or what?
Now Mr Sattar maybe you are a dyslexic so here are my arguments in few sentences
1. Not everything in religion can be proven, some things have to be BELIEVED
2. To prove (1) I out forward the Atheist/Agnostic point of view NOT that I support it, but just to prove (1)
3. After (1) when we BELIEVE in an all powerful GOD miracles are easy to understand
4. And since this post is NOT on science I`ll spare you on making the statement WITHOUT examples that many scinetific things were proved in the Quran before being discovered in SCIENCE, but think about it, IS IT TRUE? No! not for physical science, bcos Quran is NOT a book of science GOT IT?
Finally NEVER in an argument try to cheat by misquoting people as you did in this post, people lose respect for you
Adnan
#169 Posted by harimau on July 31, 2002 8:07:37 pm
Ref Mullah321 #: 170
[harimau #169 We are discussing about how to take that chilli pepper out of your smelly hindutva behind.]
Did you run short of spices in your kitchen?
[harimau #169 We are discussing about how to take that chilli pepper out of your smelly hindutva behind.]
Did you run short of spices in your kitchen?
#168 Posted by sattar2 on July 31, 2002 7:27:19 pm
Adnan (#166):
The chain of ullema spreading over 1400 years has become corrupt and is no longer serving the cause of Islam. This explains the present miserable state of Muslims all across the world. They are no longer following the message of Quran and are suffering for their rebellion against Allah. Does the sound adequate ?
Jews at the time of the Messiah (Issa) were in a similar state of rebellion. They had become corrupt and conspired to put Issa on the cross. Incidentally, they were also awaiting the descent of a prophet (Elijah) from the sky.
Muslim scholars have debated the possibility of coming of future prophets throughout the history and some renowned scholars have agreed that the door to non-law bearing prophethood remains open. Above all the Quran does not make any mention of end of prophethood. It is the Book of Allah that Allah has promised to protect and therefore serves as the first and foremost test of truth.
On khatam
I highlighted the weakness in your argument on interpreting khatam as last by showing that you are placing more importance on prophets marriage than his other bigger accomplishments mentioned in the Quran. You are yet to explain this weakness.
You earlier focused on the context of the khatam verse. Now that your argument is not holding up you want to introduce Maudoodis Arabic grammar! I explained the context of this verse in details earlier when you first challenged me. But you could not come up with an argument and left the discussion. So you want to try again now?
On the issue of Allah being All Powerful and Merciful
See now in order to try to prove me wrong you have taken the position of an atheist! This clearly shows that you are no longer able to make sense of Quran. Quran challenges one to find any incongruity in Allahs creations and to ponder over the creations of Allah to convince ones self of His existence. And now you are telling me that Qurans message is not correct that pondering over Allah creations serves no purpose
To prove me wrong you insist that there is no Hand of Allah in creation of life it all just happened! Sahib Allah is the Creator of this universe and He challenges us to come up with alternative theories of the creation. The scientist community while insisting on absence of an intelligent creator are unable to explain the evolution that has taken place in only a few billion years resulting in formation of highly complex life as we know it.
Allahs Power and Mercy are not at all contradictory even in the case of a six year old dying of cancer. Heres a part of my earlier post that I am reposting
Those who are wronged in this world will be compensated in the hereafter. Quran repeatedly reminds us of this. Allah is able to compensate those who sacrificed on His behalf BECAUSE He is All Powerful and All Merciful!
After taking increasingly absurd positions on the issue of miracles you now want to forget the debate altogether and discuss Ahmadiyyat! Whats the point of debating any issue with you if you clearly contradict the basic theme of Quran insist that religion can have no rationality and faith is a completely blind leap of faith!
With such a thought process what can I possibly discuss with you??? This has nothing to do with whether I am an Ahmadi or not. The point is that you are making absolutely no sense while trying to convince me that religion is not supposed to make any sense.
If religion is not supposed to make any sense then why bother trying to understand Quran and why discuss religion at all?
The chain of ullema spreading over 1400 years has become corrupt and is no longer serving the cause of Islam. This explains the present miserable state of Muslims all across the world. They are no longer following the message of Quran and are suffering for their rebellion against Allah. Does the sound adequate ?
Jews at the time of the Messiah (Issa) were in a similar state of rebellion. They had become corrupt and conspired to put Issa on the cross. Incidentally, they were also awaiting the descent of a prophet (Elijah) from the sky.
Muslim scholars have debated the possibility of coming of future prophets throughout the history and some renowned scholars have agreed that the door to non-law bearing prophethood remains open. Above all the Quran does not make any mention of end of prophethood. It is the Book of Allah that Allah has promised to protect and therefore serves as the first and foremost test of truth.
On khatam
I highlighted the weakness in your argument on interpreting khatam as last by showing that you are placing more importance on prophets marriage than his other bigger accomplishments mentioned in the Quran. You are yet to explain this weakness.
You earlier focused on the context of the khatam verse. Now that your argument is not holding up you want to introduce Maudoodis Arabic grammar! I explained the context of this verse in details earlier when you first challenged me. But you could not come up with an argument and left the discussion. So you want to try again now?
On the issue of Allah being All Powerful and Merciful
See now in order to try to prove me wrong you have taken the position of an atheist! This clearly shows that you are no longer able to make sense of Quran. Quran challenges one to find any incongruity in Allahs creations and to ponder over the creations of Allah to convince ones self of His existence. And now you are telling me that Qurans message is not correct that pondering over Allah creations serves no purpose
To prove me wrong you insist that there is no Hand of Allah in creation of life it all just happened! Sahib Allah is the Creator of this universe and He challenges us to come up with alternative theories of the creation. The scientist community while insisting on absence of an intelligent creator are unable to explain the evolution that has taken place in only a few billion years resulting in formation of highly complex life as we know it.
Allahs Power and Mercy are not at all contradictory even in the case of a six year old dying of cancer. Heres a part of my earlier post that I am reposting
Those who are wronged in this world will be compensated in the hereafter. Quran repeatedly reminds us of this. Allah is able to compensate those who sacrificed on His behalf BECAUSE He is All Powerful and All Merciful!
After taking increasingly absurd positions on the issue of miracles you now want to forget the debate altogether and discuss Ahmadiyyat! Whats the point of debating any issue with you if you clearly contradict the basic theme of Quran insist that religion can have no rationality and faith is a completely blind leap of faith!
With such a thought process what can I possibly discuss with you??? This has nothing to do with whether I am an Ahmadi or not. The point is that you are making absolutely no sense while trying to convince me that religion is not supposed to make any sense.
If religion is not supposed to make any sense then why bother trying to understand Quran and why discuss religion at all?
#167 Posted by tahmed321 on July 31, 2002 3:30:56 pm
harimau #169 We are discussing about how to take that chilli pepper out of your smelly hindutva behind.
#166 Posted by sattar2 on July 31, 2002 3:30:56 pm
Krashid Sahib
Firstly I would implore you to leave out sarcasm from this discourse it would only compromise the quality of this discussion. I have sincerely and patiently responded to your inquiries and expect you to maintain a similar tone in your posts. Otherwise this discourse will turn into a shouting match and would not serve any purpose. I hope you can appreciate this.
On parthenogenesis
Yes, as far as I know there is no recorded case of parthenogenesis in humans in medical history. But be mindful that this phenomenon was discovered only recently. Obviously humans, with the most advanced technology are yet to fully uncover the secrets of nature and are still in the process of learning and discovering. Parthenogenesis is one plausible/potential scenario that explains virgin birth within the limits of science and biology. I am not asking for hundreds and thousands of virgin births only a window of possibility which will give a plausible, scientific explanation of Christs birth. Apparently, it is a phenomenon that is known to exist in less complex life forms. Could this principle not be extrapolated and applied to more complex beings like humans and explain one birth out of billions? What makes you so sure this phenomenon can be outright rejected? Do we know all about science or are we still learning?
Discovery of bacteria and viruses which was indeed a surprise when initially discovered now support several points being made in Quran and ahadith. Lets wait some more and we may be surprised yet another time. I think this also addresses the male/female child issue in parthenogenesis.
Yes, indeed God can perform miracles but He has chosen not to. This is clear from the reply of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) that I mentioned earlier in 17:93 where Quran rejects the idea of miracles typically associated with prophets (Glory to the Lord Am I anything but a man a messenger).
Also, as I indicated God raised Jesus unto Himself would imply that Allah exists only in the upward direction if the ascension is to be understood in a physical sense. But Allah is all around everywhere then what does it mean to have Allah raise Jesus unto Himself? Give it some thought this fine point is worth it.
Also, should I also believe that Prophet Idrees was also physically raised upward. Check Surah-e-Mariam verse 57 (I think) if you get a chance. Same Arabic word of rafaa is used here as well.
On the issue of Prophets flight to Masjid-e-Aqsa my position is that it was a spiritual experience which has been incorrectly interpreted as a physical flight. I fully believe in each and every word of Quran. I am only interpreting it in a way consistent with the message of Quran. And Gabriel certainly brought wahi to the Prophet this once again was a spiritual experience.
On the issue of khatam there are ahadith that clearly leave open the possibility of future prophets. However, these ahadith are not discussed anymore by the ullema. There were several authentic ahadith that prophesied coming of Mujaddids one in each century and Issa coming in the 14th century. The Muslims world is in agreement over the 13 Mujaddids Ahmad Brelvi being the Mujaddid of 13th century who passed away approx. 170 years ago. 14th century is now over and there is no sign of Issa. Now the ullema no longer discuss these ahadith either.
Misunderstanding the scripture and its hidden meaning by people for ages is not a new phenomenon. Jews, at the time of Issa, were expecting physical descent of Prophet Elijah from the skies. When asked about Elijah, Issa mentioned that Prophet Yahya had some in the spirit of Elijah. Those who understood this accepted Issa as the Messiah for that age. This episode is now being repeated all over again in the case of Muslims awaiting the descent of a Prophet from the skies.
On Jesus in Kashmir
You mentioned the documentary on TV which discarded the possibility of Jesus surviving the cross and traveling to Kashmir. Do you believe everything you see on TV?
I have seen some such documentaries but they did not seem to analyze the details and facts with academic rigor that the issue deserved. May be the documentary was produced by the religious right or it was partly funded by them or the media did not want to cause an uproar in the masses there are several reasons that explain the issue
Two thieves who were put on crosses with Jesus were taken down alive and were killed by Roman soldiers breaking their bones. Blood and water coming out of Jesus body indicated a pumping heart. The timing of the event the duration on the cross the events that transpired later all indicate that Jesus indeed survived the Cross.
Jesus was not buried as you implied. His body was placed in a tomb which was more like a room, somewhat below ground level. He was wrapped up in a cloth with ointments applied to his wounds. He later met with his disciples showed them his wounds to convince them that he was indeed human traveled in secrecy and at nights. All this is mentioned in the Bible. All these details are almost always left out by the documentaries on TV.
Read the works of Holger Kersten (German researcher) or Nicholas Notovitch (Russian researcher) among many other scholars to appreciate what I am saying here.
More later
Firstly I would implore you to leave out sarcasm from this discourse it would only compromise the quality of this discussion. I have sincerely and patiently responded to your inquiries and expect you to maintain a similar tone in your posts. Otherwise this discourse will turn into a shouting match and would not serve any purpose. I hope you can appreciate this.
On parthenogenesis
Yes, as far as I know there is no recorded case of parthenogenesis in humans in medical history. But be mindful that this phenomenon was discovered only recently. Obviously humans, with the most advanced technology are yet to fully uncover the secrets of nature and are still in the process of learning and discovering. Parthenogenesis is one plausible/potential scenario that explains virgin birth within the limits of science and biology. I am not asking for hundreds and thousands of virgin births only a window of possibility which will give a plausible, scientific explanation of Christs birth. Apparently, it is a phenomenon that is known to exist in less complex life forms. Could this principle not be extrapolated and applied to more complex beings like humans and explain one birth out of billions? What makes you so sure this phenomenon can be outright rejected? Do we know all about science or are we still learning?
Discovery of bacteria and viruses which was indeed a surprise when initially discovered now support several points being made in Quran and ahadith. Lets wait some more and we may be surprised yet another time. I think this also addresses the male/female child issue in parthenogenesis.
Yes, indeed God can perform miracles but He has chosen not to. This is clear from the reply of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) that I mentioned earlier in 17:93 where Quran rejects the idea of miracles typically associated with prophets (Glory to the Lord Am I anything but a man a messenger).
Also, as I indicated God raised Jesus unto Himself would imply that Allah exists only in the upward direction if the ascension is to be understood in a physical sense. But Allah is all around everywhere then what does it mean to have Allah raise Jesus unto Himself? Give it some thought this fine point is worth it.
Also, should I also believe that Prophet Idrees was also physically raised upward. Check Surah-e-Mariam verse 57 (I think) if you get a chance. Same Arabic word of rafaa is used here as well.
On the issue of Prophets flight to Masjid-e-Aqsa my position is that it was a spiritual experience which has been incorrectly interpreted as a physical flight. I fully believe in each and every word of Quran. I am only interpreting it in a way consistent with the message of Quran. And Gabriel certainly brought wahi to the Prophet this once again was a spiritual experience.
On the issue of khatam there are ahadith that clearly leave open the possibility of future prophets. However, these ahadith are not discussed anymore by the ullema. There were several authentic ahadith that prophesied coming of Mujaddids one in each century and Issa coming in the 14th century. The Muslims world is in agreement over the 13 Mujaddids Ahmad Brelvi being the Mujaddid of 13th century who passed away approx. 170 years ago. 14th century is now over and there is no sign of Issa. Now the ullema no longer discuss these ahadith either.
Misunderstanding the scripture and its hidden meaning by people for ages is not a new phenomenon. Jews, at the time of Issa, were expecting physical descent of Prophet Elijah from the skies. When asked about Elijah, Issa mentioned that Prophet Yahya had some in the spirit of Elijah. Those who understood this accepted Issa as the Messiah for that age. This episode is now being repeated all over again in the case of Muslims awaiting the descent of a Prophet from the skies.
On Jesus in Kashmir
You mentioned the documentary on TV which discarded the possibility of Jesus surviving the cross and traveling to Kashmir. Do you believe everything you see on TV?
I have seen some such documentaries but they did not seem to analyze the details and facts with academic rigor that the issue deserved. May be the documentary was produced by the religious right or it was partly funded by them or the media did not want to cause an uproar in the masses there are several reasons that explain the issue
Two thieves who were put on crosses with Jesus were taken down alive and were killed by Roman soldiers breaking their bones. Blood and water coming out of Jesus body indicated a pumping heart. The timing of the event the duration on the cross the events that transpired later all indicate that Jesus indeed survived the Cross.
Jesus was not buried as you implied. His body was placed in a tomb which was more like a room, somewhat below ground level. He was wrapped up in a cloth with ointments applied to his wounds. He later met with his disciples showed them his wounds to convince them that he was indeed human traveled in secrecy and at nights. All this is mentioned in the Bible. All these details are almost always left out by the documentaries on TV.
Read the works of Holger Kersten (German researcher) or Nicholas Notovitch (Russian researcher) among many other scholars to appreciate what I am saying here.
More later
#165 Posted by tahmed321 on July 31, 2002 10:25:25 am
sattar2 #157 you write ``As long as we have respect and affection for each other as humans
we should be ok. We both believe in Allah Almighty
and that with time He will separate truth from error. We can only make our best effort to understand, without compromising our dignity and integrity, ask Allah for help
and leave the rest to Him. I know you certainly appreciate this point
"
This is basically the spirit with which the Quran enjoins upon us to approach differences of opinion in religion. So, on this note, I wish you the best, and end my discussion on this board.
This is basically the spirit with which the Quran enjoins upon us to approach differences of opinion in religion. So, on this note, I wish you the best, and end my discussion on this board.
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