Worldwide India-Pakistan peace movement begins?
Ras Siddiqui July 15, 2002
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#284 Posted by harimau on August 9, 2002 12:34:08 pm
Ref bundchungal #: 284
[Yesterday, they showed on Pakistan TV the transportation of Daniel Pearl’s body remains. Those idi0ts even spelled his name wrong. It was spelled Denial Pearl!!]
They did NOT spell the name wrong.
Didn`t Musharraf deny that Daniel Pearl was dead, assuring the world that he was still alive and that the Pak police were closing in on the kidnappers and would rescue Daniel alive?
That is why he is now Denial Pearl.
[Yesterday, they showed on Pakistan TV the transportation of Daniel Pearl’s body remains. Those idi0ts even spelled his name wrong. It was spelled Denial Pearl!!]
They did NOT spell the name wrong.
Didn`t Musharraf deny that Daniel Pearl was dead, assuring the world that he was still alive and that the Pak police were closing in on the kidnappers and would rescue Daniel alive?
That is why he is now Denial Pearl.
#283 Posted by busharraf on August 8, 2002 8:03:19 pm
rsridhar, #282, Thank you for finally accepting me and also for your very kind remarks. I an fortunate that you found me worthy to be a member of Chowk.com. You are very generous man and I hope that one day we might be able to meet in person when our brother countries are at peace. It may be an unrealistic possibility but at least it is an a optimistic and pleasant one.
I hope we can continue to exchange more of our views. I am happy to have you as an Indian friend.
The basic thing is that TRUTH must prevail. We need not agree on everything, but the conversation or discussion should be honest and unabusive. Then we will be on the right path for success and happiness.
``Shanti - Aman`` mere pyare ``mitr-dost``
I hope we can continue to exchange more of our views. I am happy to have you as an Indian friend.
The basic thing is that TRUTH must prevail. We need not agree on everything, but the conversation or discussion should be honest and unabusive. Then we will be on the right path for success and happiness.
``Shanti - Aman`` mere pyare ``mitr-dost``
#282 Posted by bundchungal on August 8, 2002 8:03:19 pm
rsridhar, (# 283) I accept your well meaning comments. I think the turban is a neat and impressive head dress that is worn all over by the people inhabiting the subcontinent. The Sikh’s should be allowed to wear their turbans (or other head gear), as should the Rajasthanis, Gujaratis, Tamilains, Bengalis, as well as others who wear them. My remarks were aimed towards the taliban types who look tribally shabby and dirty in their dressing manner and overall demenour. I feel that people should be smartly dressed and reflect the dignity of their people. If you have seen the taliban types in Pakistan, they are most unimpressive and unclean. The Arabs, of Saudi Arabia, for example are well dressed in their flowing robes. But the Pakistanis are most untidy, especially when they are shown on TV news reports. Yesterday, they showed on Pakistan TV the transportation of Daniel Pearl’s body remains. Those idi0ts even spelled his name wrong. It was spelled Denial Pearl!! Anyway, the people carrying the body were most untidy in their appearance, just like the killer Sheikh Moola Omar.
Cheers!
Cheers!
#281 Posted by rsridhar on August 7, 2002 7:44:22 pm
re:Reply #: 280
bundchungal,
While i agree with much of what you said, i do not agree with the dress code. Would you also tell the sikhs to stop wearing his turban because it sets him apart from the crowd?
Sridhar
bundchungal,
While i agree with much of what you said, i do not agree with the dress code. Would you also tell the sikhs to stop wearing his turban because it sets him apart from the crowd?
Sridhar
#280 Posted by rsridhar on August 7, 2002 7:13:52 pm
Reply #: 279
busharraf
Irfan Hussain is a man of integrity. And so are you. It takes courage to realise the truth and speak it. Many may realise the truth but dare not speak it and, like a broken gramophone record, keep repeating the same stale thing again and again. You are like a whiff of fresh air on the chowk. Keep it up.
Sridhar
busharraf
Irfan Hussain is a man of integrity. And so are you. It takes courage to realise the truth and speak it. Many may realise the truth but dare not speak it and, like a broken gramophone record, keep repeating the same stale thing again and again. You are like a whiff of fresh air on the chowk. Keep it up.
Sridhar
#279 Posted by rsridhar on August 7, 2002 7:13:52 pm
re:Reply #: 271
Karakoram,
In your response to Busharraf your write:
``you mean with the southies too ? can they understand Iqbal ? are you sure about this ?``.
Most southies would appreciate the spirit in which the poem was written by Iqbal even if they do not understand the language. Most Southies do not understand ``Vande Mataram`` written by Bakim Chatterjee (the poem was in Sanskrit)but they appreciate the spirit of nationalism behind the poem. Indians treasure that song written by Md Iqbal even if latter did not treasure India and left for greener pastures.
``Can we convert more untouchables to Islam ? ...
Maybe for the ex-Brahmins like Iqbal`s family..but what about the untouchables who became Muslims.. I mean do they want to become untouchables again ??``
Untouchables (now called Dalits)are not against the hindu religion. You do not see them standing in line to convert. Their exploitation is more of a social nature. With gradual empowerment that too will go away. Mayawati of UP is a Dalit. Ex-President Narayan is a Dalit. With changes in the power equation, exploitation of Dalits will be a thing of the past. You seem to be parroting out the lines you read in your childhood days in a madrassa. Like many muslims, you too are in a time warp.
Sridhar
Karakoram,
In your response to Busharraf your write:
``you mean with the southies too ? can they understand Iqbal ? are you sure about this ?``.
Most southies would appreciate the spirit in which the poem was written by Iqbal even if they do not understand the language. Most Southies do not understand ``Vande Mataram`` written by Bakim Chatterjee (the poem was in Sanskrit)but they appreciate the spirit of nationalism behind the poem. Indians treasure that song written by Md Iqbal even if latter did not treasure India and left for greener pastures.
``Can we convert more untouchables to Islam ? ...
Maybe for the ex-Brahmins like Iqbal`s family..but what about the untouchables who became Muslims.. I mean do they want to become untouchables again ??``
Untouchables (now called Dalits)are not against the hindu religion. You do not see them standing in line to convert. Their exploitation is more of a social nature. With gradual empowerment that too will go away. Mayawati of UP is a Dalit. Ex-President Narayan is a Dalit. With changes in the power equation, exploitation of Dalits will be a thing of the past. You seem to be parroting out the lines you read in your childhood days in a madrassa. Like many muslims, you too are in a time warp.
Sridhar
#278 Posted by bundchungal on August 6, 2002 12:32:53 pm
Namaskaar, Shremaan Busharraf Jee Maharaj.
If you are a true India-phile then here is my plan for you and your people:
The first step for Pakistan, if it wants to unite with India, should be to put an end to the separation of Muslim children from children of other communities. While in school Muslims should ensure that their children go to school with children from other religious groups, if there are still any left in your country. That is where we all get to know about the beliefs and practices of other religious group. It is through the friendship we make in school and college, and through teacher of other faith whom we respect, that we begin to understand and respect the beliefs and practices of other groups.
It does not mean that Muslim children should not learn the Koran. These can be taught in a special class for Muslim children either in the school itself or in the mosques. It will be like the scripture or moral science lessons in Christian school. It is not a compulsory subject but in many Christian school Hindu children join such classes out of intellectual curiosity. As a matter of fact, the scripture prize Cathedral school in Mumbai is often won by Hindu students!
Muslims should consider opening up their School for the general education of children from all communities, and restrict classes on Islamic subjects as an optional item. This change in the conduct of Islamic schools will go a long way to integrate the community.
Another useful step will be for Muslims charities to establish charitable hospitals accessible to members of all communities. They present a face of compassion to the community in general. Rich Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia should be told by Pakistani Muslim leaders to direct their funds to building such hospitals rather than building more opulent mosques. In fact the building of such affluent mosques in poor Muslim mohallas and fitting them with elaborate loudspeakers that blare out at odd times of the day and night can be a source of irritation to many secular neighbours.
A third step will be for Muslims to adopt in their business and professional life a dress code that does not mark them out as being different from the rest. Is it really necessary for men to have a beard or wear caps and long shirts or for women to wear a burqa or head scarf to show that they are Muslims? These dress and appearance codes were at one time probably appropriate for people who lived in the Arabian peninsula and in a community where women had to hide their form for their own safety. Beards as a symbol of religious identity also belong to that era. Is it relevant today in your country?
A fourth step will be to stop the imams and mullahs to speak ill of India. This breeding of hatered towards Indians must be stopped in your country.
Namaaz several times during the day is yet another habit which sets Muslims apart, and can prove to be an irritant where office team work is involved. Can Muslims not offer their prayers briefly in silence without having to interfere with the activities of their team mates?
These are just a few points that I would like you Muslims to think about. Do you think this will be possible for you?
Bye the way, I congratulate you Mr. Busharraf on your interesting “username” and also on the points you raised previously on Chowk.
Keep this discussion going!!!!. Your fellow Pakis can learn a lot from you!!!
If you are a true India-phile then here is my plan for you and your people:
The first step for Pakistan, if it wants to unite with India, should be to put an end to the separation of Muslim children from children of other communities. While in school Muslims should ensure that their children go to school with children from other religious groups, if there are still any left in your country. That is where we all get to know about the beliefs and practices of other religious group. It is through the friendship we make in school and college, and through teacher of other faith whom we respect, that we begin to understand and respect the beliefs and practices of other groups.
It does not mean that Muslim children should not learn the Koran. These can be taught in a special class for Muslim children either in the school itself or in the mosques. It will be like the scripture or moral science lessons in Christian school. It is not a compulsory subject but in many Christian school Hindu children join such classes out of intellectual curiosity. As a matter of fact, the scripture prize Cathedral school in Mumbai is often won by Hindu students!
Muslims should consider opening up their School for the general education of children from all communities, and restrict classes on Islamic subjects as an optional item. This change in the conduct of Islamic schools will go a long way to integrate the community.
Another useful step will be for Muslims charities to establish charitable hospitals accessible to members of all communities. They present a face of compassion to the community in general. Rich Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia should be told by Pakistani Muslim leaders to direct their funds to building such hospitals rather than building more opulent mosques. In fact the building of such affluent mosques in poor Muslim mohallas and fitting them with elaborate loudspeakers that blare out at odd times of the day and night can be a source of irritation to many secular neighbours.
A third step will be for Muslims to adopt in their business and professional life a dress code that does not mark them out as being different from the rest. Is it really necessary for men to have a beard or wear caps and long shirts or for women to wear a burqa or head scarf to show that they are Muslims? These dress and appearance codes were at one time probably appropriate for people who lived in the Arabian peninsula and in a community where women had to hide their form for their own safety. Beards as a symbol of religious identity also belong to that era. Is it relevant today in your country?
A fourth step will be to stop the imams and mullahs to speak ill of India. This breeding of hatered towards Indians must be stopped in your country.
Namaaz several times during the day is yet another habit which sets Muslims apart, and can prove to be an irritant where office team work is involved. Can Muslims not offer their prayers briefly in silence without having to interfere with the activities of their team mates?
These are just a few points that I would like you Muslims to think about. Do you think this will be possible for you?
Bye the way, I congratulate you Mr. Busharraf on your interesting “username” and also on the points you raised previously on Chowk.
Keep this discussion going!!!!. Your fellow Pakis can learn a lot from you!!!
#277 Posted by busharraf on August 5, 2002 2:32:34 pm
Here is a remindful excerpt from this weekend`s column by Irfan Husain (Mazdak) in Dawn:
(complete column is at: http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm)
Is there a connection between these different strands of violence in Pakistani society? Clearly there is: when there is virtually no deterrence, there is no respect for the law. And when even the law is loaded against specific sections of society (women and minorities), then there can be no protection for them. But perhaps the most important is the virtual absence of women from our public life: without their humanizing influence, the most brutish behaviour has been accepted as the norm. In a society where women have been locked away and deliberately kept backward, they can hardly modify and refine the macho, feudal image that is now the Pakistani role model.
Ultimately, this male posturing and swaggering colours and permeates attitudes and policies at the individual and national level. In our region, it is reinforced by the belief that Muslims have ruled much of India for nearly a millennium. Of course we tend to forget that most Pakistani Muslims are in reality the descendants of Hindus who had converted to Islam somewhere along the line. Historical and social distortions make us behave in a stiff-necked and uptight manner that precludes flexibility and realism, blocking a settlement with India. Our neighbour responds in an equally prickly way, thus ensuring that our borders are as prone to violence as our society is.
We Pakistanis resent the negative image we have acquired abroad, ascribing it to hostile Indian propaganda combined with anti-Muslim sentiments in the West. We overlook the unpleasant reality that, seen from a distance, we have developed into a very unattractive state that is violent not only to its own people but also to foreigners. It has not produced any arts or literature of note in recent years, nor has it made any contribution to the sciences. It has acquired nuclear status, thus - together with India - making the region a more dangerous place. It has many social and economic problems seeking urgent attention and redress but it chooses to spend enormous sums on its armed forces. Meanwhile, poverty and disease continue multiplying.
All in all, if the rest of the world is critical of us, it is not far wrong.
(complete column is at: http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm)
Is there a connection between these different strands of violence in Pakistani society? Clearly there is: when there is virtually no deterrence, there is no respect for the law. And when even the law is loaded against specific sections of society (women and minorities), then there can be no protection for them. But perhaps the most important is the virtual absence of women from our public life: without their humanizing influence, the most brutish behaviour has been accepted as the norm. In a society where women have been locked away and deliberately kept backward, they can hardly modify and refine the macho, feudal image that is now the Pakistani role model.
Ultimately, this male posturing and swaggering colours and permeates attitudes and policies at the individual and national level. In our region, it is reinforced by the belief that Muslims have ruled much of India for nearly a millennium. Of course we tend to forget that most Pakistani Muslims are in reality the descendants of Hindus who had converted to Islam somewhere along the line. Historical and social distortions make us behave in a stiff-necked and uptight manner that precludes flexibility and realism, blocking a settlement with India. Our neighbour responds in an equally prickly way, thus ensuring that our borders are as prone to violence as our society is.
We Pakistanis resent the negative image we have acquired abroad, ascribing it to hostile Indian propaganda combined with anti-Muslim sentiments in the West. We overlook the unpleasant reality that, seen from a distance, we have developed into a very unattractive state that is violent not only to its own people but also to foreigners. It has not produced any arts or literature of note in recent years, nor has it made any contribution to the sciences. It has acquired nuclear status, thus - together with India - making the region a more dangerous place. It has many social and economic problems seeking urgent attention and redress but it chooses to spend enormous sums on its armed forces. Meanwhile, poverty and disease continue multiplying.
All in all, if the rest of the world is critical of us, it is not far wrong.
#276 Posted by shankar on August 5, 2002 2:32:34 pm
karakoram,
{{Just goes to show if you think a little you can get answers to just about anything.}}
Haha! Thanks buddy, I deserved that!..:)
as to answering the question...I promise to try & answer it in greater detail, if I get more time...
right now...I`ll just tell you this..psychiatry is the most ``recession-proof`` profession in the world...shrinks dont roll in wealth in America..but they will NEVER-EVER go hungry in this fair society...not during the Great Depression--not even when the stock market was breaking all records..
ooops...gotta go!..wife is yelling cos I`m late for work..
{{Just goes to show if you think a little you can get answers to just about anything.}}
Haha! Thanks buddy, I deserved that!..:)
as to answering the question...I promise to try & answer it in greater detail, if I get more time...
right now...I`ll just tell you this..psychiatry is the most ``recession-proof`` profession in the world...shrinks dont roll in wealth in America..but they will NEVER-EVER go hungry in this fair society...not during the Great Depression--not even when the stock market was breaking all records..
ooops...gotta go!..wife is yelling cos I`m late for work..
#275 Posted by shankar on August 5, 2002 3:20:53 am
hey fellow Chowkies?!
Whats going on here?!
I wrote SEVERAL posts to Busharraf, explaining my stance regarding him & its been a few days. Eventhough Chowk confirmed that my posts were recieved, its been a couple of days & they have not been posted! But sadnaji`s post (which belongs in another thread) was posted here!!
I think Chowk has a SERIOUS staffing problem. As a faithful Chowkie, I feel I have a right to know what the heck is going on!
Are Chowk`s finances/fortunes down & cant afford to hire staff, because of the ``dot com bust``?
Or is Chowk becoming a ``victim of its own success``--so many posts from so many different posters are overwhelming them?
``Old timers`` say that Chowk was a very ``well mannered & refined`` place , in the ``good old days``. OK, maybe. But in those ``good old days``, if an article drew 100 posts, it was a record! On an average, an article had maybe (at the most) 25 posts or so...my figures are a rough guess. So, eventhough, today, Chowk isnt so ``refined`` & all the ``refined`` people have deserted Chowk; because they dont approve of the ``quality of people``---its a HECK OF A LOT MORE LIVELY; Ill say that!
{{Huh..mois never cared to belong to any exculsive ``refined people`s club``, anyways:))}}
Anyways,(er..before I get off my soapbox), welcome BUSHARRAF & KHAN...everybody is welcome to join Chowk!!
Mr Umair Khan, I hope, once in a while, you do read some of our views.
Peace
Whats going on here?!
I wrote SEVERAL posts to Busharraf, explaining my stance regarding him & its been a few days. Eventhough Chowk confirmed that my posts were recieved, its been a couple of days & they have not been posted! But sadnaji`s post (which belongs in another thread) was posted here!!
I think Chowk has a SERIOUS staffing problem. As a faithful Chowkie, I feel I have a right to know what the heck is going on!
Are Chowk`s finances/fortunes down & cant afford to hire staff, because of the ``dot com bust``?
Or is Chowk becoming a ``victim of its own success``--so many posts from so many different posters are overwhelming them?
``Old timers`` say that Chowk was a very ``well mannered & refined`` place , in the ``good old days``. OK, maybe. But in those ``good old days``, if an article drew 100 posts, it was a record! On an average, an article had maybe (at the most) 25 posts or so...my figures are a rough guess. So, eventhough, today, Chowk isnt so ``refined`` & all the ``refined`` people have deserted Chowk; because they dont approve of the ``quality of people``---its a HECK OF A LOT MORE LIVELY; Ill say that!
{{Huh..mois never cared to belong to any exculsive ``refined people`s club``, anyways:))}}
Anyways,(er..before I get off my soapbox), welcome BUSHARRAF & KHAN...everybody is welcome to join Chowk!!
Mr Umair Khan, I hope, once in a while, you do read some of our views.
Peace
#274 Posted by Karakoram on August 5, 2002 3:20:53 am
bushy:
I don`t want to give up steak. I will fight tooth and nail for my right to eat a juicy steak. if its the unification of Pakistan and India and my right to eat steak... beleive me when I say I will kill the cow!
sorry:(, but I`m an animal and I like my beef. Just as someone else may like their pork or alcohol or frog`s legs.
Also, i`m not sure what your definition of faithful muslim is.. I do stuff that is considered haraam.
I believe in good vibes. But i realize your point of view.. that its not good vibes for the cow, when we kill it. thats where the world gets screwy. Is it good vibes that we kill the plant to eat it ? We my dear bushy, are just animals. I like to think of my self as an opportunist with a good heart, but still an opportunist.
I don`t want to give up steak. I will fight tooth and nail for my right to eat a juicy steak. if its the unification of Pakistan and India and my right to eat steak... beleive me when I say I will kill the cow!
sorry:(, but I`m an animal and I like my beef. Just as someone else may like their pork or alcohol or frog`s legs.
Also, i`m not sure what your definition of faithful muslim is.. I do stuff that is considered haraam.
I believe in good vibes. But i realize your point of view.. that its not good vibes for the cow, when we kill it. thats where the world gets screwy. Is it good vibes that we kill the plant to eat it ? We my dear bushy, are just animals. I like to think of my self as an opportunist with a good heart, but still an opportunist.
#273 Posted by Karakoram on August 5, 2002 3:20:53 am
``I`m not sure which is more interesting, that Pakistan allows the sale of pork; or there are supermarkets in Pakistan that cater only to foreigners.``
Shankar,
hello, wanted to ask a question.. have you noticed a downward trend in people seeking pdychiatric help with the current recession ? I have a hunch that people seek help or need help when they are more secure and stable... they try to find things that are fcuked up with their lives. when people are not doing that well they have less time to worry about how they feel and are more focued on making things better.
Coming back to your point about supermarkets that cater to foreigners, I`m curious as to why its interesting. I just went to a Japanese supermarket in NY today. What nasty tasting juice drinks ughhh!. I saw it, walked in, I found it interesting too. I was like are there that many Japs that you need a supermarket that carrys only jap goods. The answer came...yes!! eureka thats why they opened the store because they knew they`d have a market for Jap goods. Just goes to show if you think a little you can get answers to just about anything.
Peace
#272 Posted by sadna on August 4, 2002 6:07:18 pm
ylh #248
You are compulsively abusive and cannot handle disagreement. You have the freedom of the thread.
You are compulsively abusive and cannot handle disagreement. You have the freedom of the thread.
#271 Posted by busharraf on August 2, 2002 6:16:18 pm
Korakoram, it is very easy to be cynical but I have not heard any constructive comments from you in your recent posts. I know that some of the ideas I suggested will take a long time to foster. I am also not saying that we lay down our arms unify tomorrow. This will not happen anytime soon. Our societ is not ready for it. I know this and I also do not insist that we do so. I merely suggested an ideal situation, from my perspective.
But in the meanwhile. on Chowk and with our accquaintances, why can we not talk with each other about such things, and at least try to be collegial. Snide remarks will only encourage distrust and apprehension between us. You seem to be a reasonable fellow why can’t you engage the Chowk members in a constructive manner? I have similar remarks for rsaxena, shankar, wadera, and rsridhar. I do not know you but I have aggravated you a lot. I do not regret it because I just express my natural and honest opinion. You all seem to be responsible fellows with a good sense of right and wrong. All I am suggesting is that we be collegial between our two countries and engage in worthwhile and constructive debate. Talking about boycotting each other, as some have, will not help us in any way.
In specifics: Korakoram, I did not mean to suggest that ``we convert more untouchables to Islam`` Why would you want to do that? Why does this have to be a mission of one’s life? Why can we not live and let live? Why can we not engage in business with each other instead? And make a better society for each other. If you are currently residing in Pakistan, then you will know how badly our garment and other small business sectors have suffered. For my situation, I used to have a thriving business in making export garments. Now all my orders have dried out and things are very bad. I also have no more workers as many of them have gone elsewhere for “out country’s defense”. I lay the blame for our sorry situation on our military rulers and our so-called clergy for this. They have for so long supported terrorist activities and have neglected education in our country. They poison our minds for the sake of jihad. This is not jidad!!!! The Americans are now forcing their way upon us, for better or for worse. Sure our leaders like to make fiery speeches, but this is all smoke and mirrors. There is no substance to their words. Their regime will all come crashing down one day, if we do not focus on ourselves and the betterment of our society. We need a greater purpose in life. We need to stop being fixated on our neighbours and work for the betterment of our people.
I specifically did not mean to imply that our down trodden should become untouchables again. But I am glad to know that that you at least, indirectly, acknowledge the fact that many us were most likely Hindu untouchables, as well as higher castes people, who were forcibly converted to Islam a long time ago. Please stay the way you are if you follow it faithfully. But this should be a personal matter and must not be forced on to others. This is a just starting point. But do not dwell on just this fact, my friend. It is not worth it. Do not dwell on the past, but look instead to the future. If you are a faithful Muslim, as I feel I am, then follow your faith honestly. Follow the noble ideals of Islam, instead of the rantings and ravings of our power hungry mullahs and generals.
But in the meanwhile. on Chowk and with our accquaintances, why can we not talk with each other about such things, and at least try to be collegial. Snide remarks will only encourage distrust and apprehension between us. You seem to be a reasonable fellow why can’t you engage the Chowk members in a constructive manner? I have similar remarks for rsaxena, shankar, wadera, and rsridhar. I do not know you but I have aggravated you a lot. I do not regret it because I just express my natural and honest opinion. You all seem to be responsible fellows with a good sense of right and wrong. All I am suggesting is that we be collegial between our two countries and engage in worthwhile and constructive debate. Talking about boycotting each other, as some have, will not help us in any way.
In specifics: Korakoram, I did not mean to suggest that ``we convert more untouchables to Islam`` Why would you want to do that? Why does this have to be a mission of one’s life? Why can we not live and let live? Why can we not engage in business with each other instead? And make a better society for each other. If you are currently residing in Pakistan, then you will know how badly our garment and other small business sectors have suffered. For my situation, I used to have a thriving business in making export garments. Now all my orders have dried out and things are very bad. I also have no more workers as many of them have gone elsewhere for “out country’s defense”. I lay the blame for our sorry situation on our military rulers and our so-called clergy for this. They have for so long supported terrorist activities and have neglected education in our country. They poison our minds for the sake of jihad. This is not jidad!!!! The Americans are now forcing their way upon us, for better or for worse. Sure our leaders like to make fiery speeches, but this is all smoke and mirrors. There is no substance to their words. Their regime will all come crashing down one day, if we do not focus on ourselves and the betterment of our society. We need a greater purpose in life. We need to stop being fixated on our neighbours and work for the betterment of our people.
I specifically did not mean to imply that our down trodden should become untouchables again. But I am glad to know that that you at least, indirectly, acknowledge the fact that many us were most likely Hindu untouchables, as well as higher castes people, who were forcibly converted to Islam a long time ago. Please stay the way you are if you follow it faithfully. But this should be a personal matter and must not be forced on to others. This is a just starting point. But do not dwell on just this fact, my friend. It is not worth it. Do not dwell on the past, but look instead to the future. If you are a faithful Muslim, as I feel I am, then follow your faith honestly. Follow the noble ideals of Islam, instead of the rantings and ravings of our power hungry mullahs and generals.
#270 Posted by shankar on August 2, 2002 3:17:02 pm
Karakoram,
{{You can buy pork in Pakistan in certain supermarkets that cater to foreigners.}}
Hey I just learnt something about Pakistan! Thanks:)
I`m not sure which is more interesting, that Pakistan allows the sale of pork; or there are supermarkets in Pakistan that cater only to foreigners.
{{You can buy pork in Pakistan in certain supermarkets that cater to foreigners.}}
Hey I just learnt something about Pakistan! Thanks:)
I`m not sure which is more interesting, that Pakistan allows the sale of pork; or there are supermarkets in Pakistan that cater only to foreigners.
#269 Posted by tahmed321 on August 2, 2002 2:00:57 pm
busharraf #268 I am not alone in my support for your views. I think the vast majority of people in India and Pakistan support your views on the need to end this senseless feud (that benefits only the military generals in Pakistan, and the extremists under Advani in India). While I wish people like shankar would be more forthcoming in their support for your words (rather than being sidetracked by idle and stupid accusations by some chowk posters of your identity), I know from past interactions with shankar and many others on chowk that what you say rings true with them.
So, not to worry. :-)
So, not to worry. :-)
#268 Posted by Karakoram on August 2, 2002 2:00:57 pm
Busharraf:
``Don`t forget that it was Iqbal who wrote ``Saare jahan se accha, Hindustaan Hamaara``!!! Why cant we be one people again?``
you mean with the southies too ? can they understand Iqbal ? are you sure about this ?
``If we can unify there should be no compulsion to change our beliefs (i.e., change from Muslim to Hindu, or vice versa).``
Can we convert more untouchables to Islam ?
``There is no need to revert to anything but if one feels like it there should be no dishonour to return to our past beliefs.``
Maybe for the ex-Brahmins like Iqbal`s family..but what about the untouchables who became Muslims.. I mean do they want to become untouchables again ??
``For example, if Hindus respect the cows then we should not slaughter them, out of respect for them.``
What about beef nihari, beef kababs, gola kabab, dum ka keema... this is our culture too. We respect beef, not cow :)
`` They should also not insult us by slaughtering and eating swines.``
I`m not insulted. You can buy pork in Pakistan in certain supermarkets that cater to foreigners. There are separate pork sections in stores in Dubai, Bahrain and some other Arab nations.
Busharraf, you are a man ahead of your times living in the past, an oxymoron. You talk about Indians and Pakistani living together because they are the same people. You ignore the fact that everyone in the world is the same people, if you get my drift.
Keep the discussion alive!
``Don`t forget that it was Iqbal who wrote ``Saare jahan se accha, Hindustaan Hamaara``!!! Why cant we be one people again?``
you mean with the southies too ? can they understand Iqbal ? are you sure about this ?
``If we can unify there should be no compulsion to change our beliefs (i.e., change from Muslim to Hindu, or vice versa).``
Can we convert more untouchables to Islam ?
``There is no need to revert to anything but if one feels like it there should be no dishonour to return to our past beliefs.``
Maybe for the ex-Brahmins like Iqbal`s family..but what about the untouchables who became Muslims.. I mean do they want to become untouchables again ??
``For example, if Hindus respect the cows then we should not slaughter them, out of respect for them.``
What about beef nihari, beef kababs, gola kabab, dum ka keema... this is our culture too. We respect beef, not cow :)
`` They should also not insult us by slaughtering and eating swines.``
I`m not insulted. You can buy pork in Pakistan in certain supermarkets that cater to foreigners. There are separate pork sections in stores in Dubai, Bahrain and some other Arab nations.
Busharraf, you are a man ahead of your times living in the past, an oxymoron. You talk about Indians and Pakistani living together because they are the same people. You ignore the fact that everyone in the world is the same people, if you get my drift.
Keep the discussion alive!
#267 Posted by Karakoram on August 2, 2002 2:00:57 pm
Busharraf``We have to be the change that we want to bring to this world, as some famous person said (I can`t remember whom).``
That was Michael Jackson`s song `the man in the mirror`
That was Michael Jackson`s song `the man in the mirror`
#266 Posted by busharraf on August 1, 2002 5:38:41 pm
Thank you, tahmed321 mian, for your kind support and encouragement. I was, however, quite surprised and also very discouraged when all the anger against KhanSahib`s several posts started to turn against me, and people started to link me to KhanSahib and suggest that he and I were the same person. This absurd conclusion is without merit. Please note that I was not the one using the profane language or making any illogical and absurd conclusions or statements. However, I did express my personal views and findings of my personal research about “us” as a people, who also live in the Indian Sub-continent. I sort of knew my fellow Pakistanis would not support this stand but I have to be honest to my self and that is why I said what I did. I also do not expect my fellow Pakistani citizens to immediately subscribe to my views, as I know many of us have been conditioned into thinking that we are somehow different in origin from our Indians brethren. I again say that we have a lot more in common than our Arab and Persian neighbours. We share a common history and culture and we are one people, in spite of our antagonistic stand towards each other. We have been told over and over again that we are different but I submit that we are not. A lie repeated a thousand times…
Nevertheless, I really appreciate your generosity in acknowledging (accepting) me for who I am. I understand that you may not completely agree with me but at least you are willing to listen and offer constructive comments. I am glad to have you as my only friend (supporter) on Chowk.
One can be of any religion or faith but using such dirty profanity in an indiscriminate manner, as KhanSahib has in his recent post #241, is degrading to our faith. You have also wisely pointed this out previously. Now I should also be more circumspect in my behavior as I do not want to be accused of such acts, even though I too have used profanity in my very early posts. But that was only to stress my point and was not meant to abuse anyone in particular.
The aim of all the posts to the original article by Ras Siddiqui has taken so many twists and turns that it no longer addresses the original topic that was presented by him. In this regard, I feel that there are too many misconceptions between Pakistanis and Indians. There is a lot of distrust and hatred. Personally, I am very tired of all this anger and hate between our two people and countries. When will it all end? We have to be the change that we want to bring to this world, as some famous person said (I can`t remember whom).
Sometimes, it seems that we will keep on fighting and not remember why we hate each other so much. This is really insane!! Someone said the idea of reunification is stupid. But that is how I feel personally. A couple of generations have passed but so what? Don`t forget that it was Iqbal who wrote ``Saare jahan se accha, Hindustaan Hamaara``!!! Why cant we be one people again?
If we can unify there should be no compulsion to change our beliefs (i.e., change from Muslim to Hindu, or vice versa). There is no need to revert to anything but if one feels like it there should be no dishonour to return to our past beliefs. After all this should be a personal choice. But first and foremost let us just try to get along and live in harmony. For example, if Hindus respect the cows then we should not slaughter them, out of respect for them. They should also not insult us by slaughtering and eating swines. I know this is just a minor point but it is a start. I am not any farishta but can`t we aspire for great things. The main thing is that we should just try to genuinely respect each other and try to understand each other. This was the original gist of the article by Ras Siddiqui, I thought? I support Ras mian`s original post for fostering unity among our people.
Nevertheless, I really appreciate your generosity in acknowledging (accepting) me for who I am. I understand that you may not completely agree with me but at least you are willing to listen and offer constructive comments. I am glad to have you as my only friend (supporter) on Chowk.
One can be of any religion or faith but using such dirty profanity in an indiscriminate manner, as KhanSahib has in his recent post #241, is degrading to our faith. You have also wisely pointed this out previously. Now I should also be more circumspect in my behavior as I do not want to be accused of such acts, even though I too have used profanity in my very early posts. But that was only to stress my point and was not meant to abuse anyone in particular.
The aim of all the posts to the original article by Ras Siddiqui has taken so many twists and turns that it no longer addresses the original topic that was presented by him. In this regard, I feel that there are too many misconceptions between Pakistanis and Indians. There is a lot of distrust and hatred. Personally, I am very tired of all this anger and hate between our two people and countries. When will it all end? We have to be the change that we want to bring to this world, as some famous person said (I can`t remember whom).
Sometimes, it seems that we will keep on fighting and not remember why we hate each other so much. This is really insane!! Someone said the idea of reunification is stupid. But that is how I feel personally. A couple of generations have passed but so what? Don`t forget that it was Iqbal who wrote ``Saare jahan se accha, Hindustaan Hamaara``!!! Why cant we be one people again?
If we can unify there should be no compulsion to change our beliefs (i.e., change from Muslim to Hindu, or vice versa). There is no need to revert to anything but if one feels like it there should be no dishonour to return to our past beliefs. After all this should be a personal choice. But first and foremost let us just try to get along and live in harmony. For example, if Hindus respect the cows then we should not slaughter them, out of respect for them. They should also not insult us by slaughtering and eating swines. I know this is just a minor point but it is a start. I am not any farishta but can`t we aspire for great things. The main thing is that we should just try to genuinely respect each other and try to understand each other. This was the original gist of the article by Ras Siddiqui, I thought? I support Ras mian`s original post for fostering unity among our people.
#265 Posted by rsaxena on August 1, 2002 12:19:37 pm
...busharraf and khansaheb are playing all of you like cheap flutes...haha...people, calm down...
#264 Posted by wadera on August 1, 2002 12:19:37 pm
Shankar, (#263) - My apologies to you - I meant to needle tahmed (ever so gently and in all good humour, you understand, tahmed :)) about his acceptance of Busharraf as a Pindiite, and addressed it to you instead. Your HUH!!? is entirely justified.
#263 Posted by tahmed321 on July 31, 2002 3:30:56 pm
rsridhar #264 KhanSahib`s Karachi style gaalis may be echoed in Delhi, as you say. Fortunately, in the rest of Pakistan, our gaalis are much more vigorous-sounding than these pathetic, faggoty kind of karachi gaalis and unrealistic threats that KhanSahib could come up with. KhanSahib is living proof that even a panjabi starts acting queer if he lives in Karachi long enough.
#262 Posted by busharraf on July 31, 2002 10:25:25 am
Looks like I have stirred up a hornets nest.
I regret that I have have been the cause of so much grief amongst you all. It was not my intention. I just was expressing my opinion and personal findings. Now my own words are being used against me and claims are being made to my authenticity. I do not suspect your identity even though you hide behind the mask of made up usernames. Why do you suspect me? Just because someone else posts at the same time as me?
I guess in a world of so much falsehood, it is really difficult to know the ``asli`` from ``nakli``.
Also, I am not so stupid to give my address and phone number on this bulliten board. But, yes I was nieve to have give my real name previously. It just seemed that Chowk had honest people posting diverse opinions.
I regret that I have have been the cause of so much grief amongst you all. It was not my intention. I just was expressing my opinion and personal findings. Now my own words are being used against me and claims are being made to my authenticity. I do not suspect your identity even though you hide behind the mask of made up usernames. Why do you suspect me? Just because someone else posts at the same time as me?
I guess in a world of so much falsehood, it is really difficult to know the ``asli`` from ``nakli``.
Also, I am not so stupid to give my address and phone number on this bulliten board. But, yes I was nieve to have give my real name previously. It just seemed that Chowk had honest people posting diverse opinions.
#261 Posted by rsridhar on July 31, 2002 10:25:25 am
re: Khan Sahib`s 241
Khan Sahib has made my day. It also proves there is much in common between Indians and Pakistanis and this includes the ``gaalis``. Khan Sahib`s gaalis are not different from what an average Delhite would utter on an average day. I should know better, having spent a major part of my life in Delhi.
Khan Sahib has made my day. It also proves there is much in common between Indians and Pakistanis and this includes the ``gaalis``. Khan Sahib`s gaalis are not different from what an average Delhite would utter on an average day. I should know better, having spent a major part of my life in Delhi.
#260 Posted by shankar on July 31, 2002 10:25:25 am
scouty,
I agree with you that Khan`s post was profane & it is hard for some to ``endure`` this. Nevertheless, for those who find it hard to endure profanity, there is always the freedom to scroll past such posts. There is no law on Chowk that we have to read each & every post. I feel Khan has the right to express his view (no matter how disagreeable it is), just as much as Busharraf.
For instance, I dont quite recall Jay ever using profanity. But his posts are just as offensive & insulting to many. If he can express his views here, why cant Khan?! If Khan is stupid enough to pop his cork whenever he encounters criticism, he will hang himself, eventually. Such guys make excellent ``bakras``:). My only advice to people is not to reveal too much of their identity; lest crackpots like him could track them down.
Some ``unsoliticted brotherly `` advice, if you dont mind. We HAVE to endure profanity because it is used in the real world. We cant go around in this life without encountering such language. We have the perogative & freedom NOT to associate with such people in our personal life. But to expect people not using profanity & make them shutup is unrealistic.
Chowk is a meeting place where we meet all kinds of people, from EVERY background . If we start excluding people we find ``unsavory``, then it becomes some sort of ``exclusive`` club..& not a reflection of the ``real`` world. If a Chowkies` behaviour turns us off, we have the choice NOT to talk to them & ignore their posts.
I think it was Zahra(?) who got so incensed with the language & behaviour of some posters that she threatened to SUE Chowk!! I think thats foolish. She left Chowk in a huff. She had a CHOICE not to interact with them. When she left, she deprived herself the opportunity to interact with posters who she DID like. Similarly, I would HATE to see samina leave Chowk if 12 head continues to annoy her. He wont leave, but the rest of us then will be deprived of the pleasure of hearing samina`s input.
Bottom line: as much as this kind of profanity may turn people off; we can get AROUND it...just like we get around it in real life.. Another thing, I think Chowk should post a warning ``For Adults Only!``:)
wadera,
HUH?!!!
I agree with you that Khan`s post was profane & it is hard for some to ``endure`` this. Nevertheless, for those who find it hard to endure profanity, there is always the freedom to scroll past such posts. There is no law on Chowk that we have to read each & every post. I feel Khan has the right to express his view (no matter how disagreeable it is), just as much as Busharraf.
For instance, I dont quite recall Jay ever using profanity. But his posts are just as offensive & insulting to many. If he can express his views here, why cant Khan?! If Khan is stupid enough to pop his cork whenever he encounters criticism, he will hang himself, eventually. Such guys make excellent ``bakras``:). My only advice to people is not to reveal too much of their identity; lest crackpots like him could track them down.
Some ``unsoliticted brotherly `` advice, if you dont mind. We HAVE to endure profanity because it is used in the real world. We cant go around in this life without encountering such language. We have the perogative & freedom NOT to associate with such people in our personal life. But to expect people not using profanity & make them shutup is unrealistic.
Chowk is a meeting place where we meet all kinds of people, from EVERY background . If we start excluding people we find ``unsavory``, then it becomes some sort of ``exclusive`` club..& not a reflection of the ``real`` world. If a Chowkies` behaviour turns us off, we have the choice NOT to talk to them & ignore their posts.
I think it was Zahra(?) who got so incensed with the language & behaviour of some posters that she threatened to SUE Chowk!! I think thats foolish. She left Chowk in a huff. She had a CHOICE not to interact with them. When she left, she deprived herself the opportunity to interact with posters who she DID like. Similarly, I would HATE to see samina leave Chowk if 12 head continues to annoy her. He wont leave, but the rest of us then will be deprived of the pleasure of hearing samina`s input.
Bottom line: as much as this kind of profanity may turn people off; we can get AROUND it...just like we get around it in real life.. Another thing, I think Chowk should post a warning ``For Adults Only!``:)
wadera,
HUH?!!!
#259 Posted by shankar on July 31, 2002 10:25:25 am
tahmed,
These guys maybe fake or maybe real. I am just skeptical, thats all. I, personally, am hoping that they are for real. In fact, from the ``Indian`` standpoint, its heartwarming to know that there are Pakistanis like Busharraf, who are genuinely interested in burying the hatchet with India. I consider you in that category, as well. If he is for real, I certainly would like him to participate in Chowk & not get turned off because there are skeptics like me.
I do agree that there are Indian hatemongers on Chowk, who criticise Islam & Pakistan, who are counterparts to Khan ``sahib``. Jay et all may not be as colorfully profane as him, but they convey the same message.
In that seminal post #241..Khan sahib has demonstrated, once & for all, the character of all hatemongers..Indians & Pakistanis alike.. Let me go further & state I dont want him to leave, if he is genuine. After all, when we hear a tirade like that, he aptly demonstrates how hatemongers like him can put their foot in their mouths.
These guys maybe fake or maybe real. I am just skeptical, thats all. I, personally, am hoping that they are for real. In fact, from the ``Indian`` standpoint, its heartwarming to know that there are Pakistanis like Busharraf, who are genuinely interested in burying the hatchet with India. I consider you in that category, as well. If he is for real, I certainly would like him to participate in Chowk & not get turned off because there are skeptics like me.
I do agree that there are Indian hatemongers on Chowk, who criticise Islam & Pakistan, who are counterparts to Khan ``sahib``. Jay et all may not be as colorfully profane as him, but they convey the same message.
In that seminal post #241..Khan sahib has demonstrated, once & for all, the character of all hatemongers..Indians & Pakistanis alike.. Let me go further & state I dont want him to leave, if he is genuine. After all, when we hear a tirade like that, he aptly demonstrates how hatemongers like him can put their foot in their mouths.
#258 Posted by harimau on July 31, 2002 10:25:25 am
Ref Chunkey Pandey #: 250
[.....hey ..i like your new attitude ,keep it up & we can have krispy Kreme donuts then]
When I return to the US, I shall visit you with a dozen donuts: one for each of your nicks.
After eating them all, you will truly become chunkey.
[.....hey ..i like your new attitude ,keep it up & we can have krispy Kreme donuts then]
When I return to the US, I shall visit you with a dozen donuts: one for each of your nicks.
After eating them all, you will truly become chunkey.
#257 Posted by tahmed321 on July 29, 2002 1:12:10 pm
Busharraf: As a fellow pindiite, I think you have stirred up the KhanSahib from Karachi as well as raised doubts concerning your identity in the minds of some of our friends from India, including Sadna who doesnt know any better and Shankar who I thought would know better. Not bad for one post!! As a fellow pindiite, I am very proud of you. :-)
PS: I am sure you will not hand out your phone number to anyone on chowk as requested by one of the posters - there are too many nutcases on chowk for that (stay long enough and you will find out).
PS: I am sure you will not hand out your phone number to anyone on chowk as requested by one of the posters - there are too many nutcases on chowk for that (stay long enough and you will find out).
#256 Posted by tahmed321 on July 29, 2002 1:12:10 pm
KhanSahib #241 you write ``To all Chowkwallas who talk ill about Islam:``
There are a handful of Indian posters like Jay who claim that it is the Islamic religion that teaches evil things. The rest of us (self included) have pointed out that Islam teaches good things, and it is only a handful of evil people (and you seem to be one of them) who are trying to hijack Islam. So, your post should be directed towards them. Not to those who have exposed the vast distance between what you write in your posts and the message of Islam.
You write ``Haramzadon, tum ko Islam ke bare me talk karne ka haq he kya hai???! ``
In using an abusive word and Islam in the same sentence, you expose your own lack of respect for Islam. Do engage in insulting matches with your counterpart scum from India. Leave Islam out of it.
The rest of your post are the rantings and abuses of a man who can only be a follower of shaitan. Go and get your head checked.
There are a handful of Indian posters like Jay who claim that it is the Islamic religion that teaches evil things. The rest of us (self included) have pointed out that Islam teaches good things, and it is only a handful of evil people (and you seem to be one of them) who are trying to hijack Islam. So, your post should be directed towards them. Not to those who have exposed the vast distance between what you write in your posts and the message of Islam.
You write ``Haramzadon, tum ko Islam ke bare me talk karne ka haq he kya hai???! ``
In using an abusive word and Islam in the same sentence, you expose your own lack of respect for Islam. Do engage in insulting matches with your counterpart scum from India. Leave Islam out of it.
The rest of your post are the rantings and abuses of a man who can only be a follower of shaitan. Go and get your head checked.
#255 Posted by tahmed321 on July 29, 2002 1:12:10 pm
shankar #251 I thought this board was now Resting In Peace in Chowk Board Heaven, but seems like it marches on like a zombie. I dont think either Busharaff OR KhanSahib are faking it. Being familiar with the Rawalpindi manner of speaking and of the Karachi manner of speaking, the two are genuine articles.
I have come across a few fakes from India posing as Pakistanis, and they immediately were exposed when they started throwing in a bit of vernacular and made themselves totally ridiculous. One cannot fake it for very long, even on an internet board like chowk.
In any case, unless clearly exposed in some manner (as these individuals were), I think each poster is entitled to being judged by what he/she writes and not labelled a fake by the rest of the posters who are writing anonymously anyway.
I have come across a few fakes from India posing as Pakistanis, and they immediately were exposed when they started throwing in a bit of vernacular and made themselves totally ridiculous. One cannot fake it for very long, even on an internet board like chowk.
In any case, unless clearly exposed in some manner (as these individuals were), I think each poster is entitled to being judged by what he/she writes and not labelled a fake by the rest of the posters who are writing anonymously anyway.
#254 Posted by PartySlims on July 29, 2002 1:12:10 pm
KhanSahib ``Aur humari gaand marna chata hai!!``
aap befikr rahain, aap ke ghand mahfooz rahay gee. Lekin agar Kashmir kayleeay aap ko gaand kee qurbani dainee paRee, day sakain gay ? sonch kar jawaab deejeay.
aap befikr rahain, aap ke ghand mahfooz rahay gee. Lekin agar Kashmir kayleeay aap ko gaand kee qurbani dainee paRee, day sakain gay ? sonch kar jawaab deejeay.
#253 Posted by ana on July 29, 2002 1:12:10 pm
my gawd..duck man duck!
all I have to say about post #241 is..and this guy speaks for what? and who?
And my posts have been censored for much much lesser crimes :(
Chowk staffers..remember, he who curses and runs away, will come to curse again another day! Some of us would be more than happy to help you prevent this from happening.
all I have to say about post #241 is..and this guy speaks for what? and who?
And my posts have been censored for much much lesser crimes :(
Chowk staffers..remember, he who curses and runs away, will come to curse again another day! Some of us would be more than happy to help you prevent this from happening.
#252 Posted by stuka on July 29, 2002 1:12:10 pm
Khan Sahib:
``Behen-chood, salle choot ke pissu!!
Abe, bhonsiriwalon, Amrika chale agye to kya ustad ban gaye?
USA me baitha hai, Amriki logon ke choot bajarahe ho!!``
WAH WAH!! WAH WAH!! Irshad Irshad!!! You are either from Lahore or Delhi. Delhites are the ustaads in India for giving gaalis, with close competition provided by Haryana. There only equals in South Asia are the Lahoris. As Subroto said, you took us back to college days, and I can definitely say that Subroto did not go to St Stephens if it reminds him of the old days.
I am dying of laughter here. You are a welcome change from Urstuly, who is sanctimonious and BORING.
``Behen-chood, salle choot ke pissu!!
Abe, bhonsiriwalon, Amrika chale agye to kya ustad ban gaye?
USA me baitha hai, Amriki logon ke choot bajarahe ho!!``
WAH WAH!! WAH WAH!! Irshad Irshad!!! You are either from Lahore or Delhi. Delhites are the ustaads in India for giving gaalis, with close competition provided by Haryana. There only equals in South Asia are the Lahoris. As Subroto said, you took us back to college days, and I can definitely say that Subroto did not go to St Stephens if it reminds him of the old days.
I am dying of laughter here. You are a welcome change from Urstuly, who is sanctimonious and BORING.
#251 Posted by wadera on July 29, 2002 1:12:10 pm
Shankar your naiveté is too much for me. The reason I asked Mr Busharraf (from ... ah ... Rawalpindi) was not so much because I anticipate earth-shaking revelations. I wanted to read the response for its flavor. And that flavor provided me with his `identity` - which is so danged easy that I don`t know whether to laugh or shake my head... it is just too easy! He does it every time ...without meaning to! I may respond to the ``historical revelations`` he espouses in his post as well, but that is just a sidenote to the main joke - and the main joke is his third reincarnation on Chowk (the third I`ve identified, at any rate). And as for the KhanSahib character, you may have something there. The schizoids here do provide some entertainment ...!
#250 Posted by sadna on July 28, 2002 1:25:16 pm
I too think Busharraf and Khan are the same, most likely an India.
But the amazing thing is that Khan says the same things (regarding the Islamic defeat of India) which the proteges of the Pakistani Army including Salaahudin of the Hizbul Mujahideen and Hamid Gul say in public statements. Salaahuddin says these things sitting comfortably in Pakistan`s capital Islamabad and Hmaid Gul has plenty of admirers in Pakistan`s future politican leaders including Imran Khan.
I guess its uncomfortable for the major element of your country`s foreign policy to be out in the open with no cover of deniability or hypocritical social conventions to hide it.
But the amazing thing is that Khan says the same things (regarding the Islamic defeat of India) which the proteges of the Pakistani Army including Salaahudin of the Hizbul Mujahideen and Hamid Gul say in public statements. Salaahuddin says these things sitting comfortably in Pakistan`s capital Islamabad and Hmaid Gul has plenty of admirers in Pakistan`s future politican leaders including Imran Khan.
I guess its uncomfortable for the major element of your country`s foreign policy to be out in the open with no cover of deniability or hypocritical social conventions to hide it.
#249 Posted by shankar on July 28, 2002 12:01:47 pm
I would like Chowk Staff to check on the authenticity of Khan Sahib & Busharraf & report back to all of us--if that is possible.
Both of them appeared on Chowk at exactly the same time & both hit the ground running. They are diametrically opposite in what they believe & how they behave.
What Busharraf says is music to the ears of Indians (except the reunification part) & maynot sit well with most Pakistanis here. He is polite, personable & open minded. Khan is his anti-thesis. He is rude, pugnacious, billigerent, profane & threatening. He hasnt come here to discus, rather to pick a fight with everyone who doesnt agree with his highness.
Busharraf gives his real name, the city he lives in & his profession...in a public forum like Chowk. Thats awful risky, esp since Busharraf HIMSELF says that if he said what he said publicly, he will be killed & the women in his family will be raped & murdered!
What gives, Bushy:)?! For a seemingly intelligent guy, that is very stupid!! I`m not that well versed in Urdu...but didnt Khan Sahib make specific threats against your life, in his last post?!
No offense Busharraf & Khan, I`m skeptical of both your authenticities. I`d really like Chowk staff to tell us if they are ``for real``; or is some smart ass is trying to take all of us on Chowk for a ride?!
If the two of you are real, I apologise for my skepticism....but Khan sahib`s attitude will make many posters uncomfortable. Yes, we have mudsling matches here; but even the worst one has not resulted in personal death threats.
Khan Sahib..if you cant tolerate any sort of criticsm, you are wasting your time on this board. We Hindians have heard this kind of threats & jingoism coming from Pakistan many times these past 50+ yrs. I hate to burst your bubble, but Indians have never lost any sleep about marauding Pakistanis coming to Delhi to plant their flag on the Red Fort.
Hey, 12 head! I`m not accusing you of being either of these two. However, this is precisely what happens when buttheads like you come to Chowk to be a wise ass...& soon we dont know who is asli & who is nakli..
Both of them appeared on Chowk at exactly the same time & both hit the ground running. They are diametrically opposite in what they believe & how they behave.
What Busharraf says is music to the ears of Indians (except the reunification part) & maynot sit well with most Pakistanis here. He is polite, personable & open minded. Khan is his anti-thesis. He is rude, pugnacious, billigerent, profane & threatening. He hasnt come here to discus, rather to pick a fight with everyone who doesnt agree with his highness.
Busharraf gives his real name, the city he lives in & his profession...in a public forum like Chowk. Thats awful risky, esp since Busharraf HIMSELF says that if he said what he said publicly, he will be killed & the women in his family will be raped & murdered!
What gives, Bushy:)?! For a seemingly intelligent guy, that is very stupid!! I`m not that well versed in Urdu...but didnt Khan Sahib make specific threats against your life, in his last post?!
No offense Busharraf & Khan, I`m skeptical of both your authenticities. I`d really like Chowk staff to tell us if they are ``for real``; or is some smart ass is trying to take all of us on Chowk for a ride?!
If the two of you are real, I apologise for my skepticism....but Khan sahib`s attitude will make many posters uncomfortable. Yes, we have mudsling matches here; but even the worst one has not resulted in personal death threats.
Khan Sahib..if you cant tolerate any sort of criticsm, you are wasting your time on this board. We Hindians have heard this kind of threats & jingoism coming from Pakistan many times these past 50+ yrs. I hate to burst your bubble, but Indians have never lost any sleep about marauding Pakistanis coming to Delhi to plant their flag on the Red Fort.
Hey, 12 head! I`m not accusing you of being either of these two. However, this is precisely what happens when buttheads like you come to Chowk to be a wise ass...& soon we dont know who is asli & who is nakli..
#247 Posted by subroto on July 28, 2002 12:01:47 pm
Re KhanSahib # 241
``...Tum loog kya jaante ho Islam ke bare mein? Tere qualifications he kay hain?
Behen-chood, salle choot ke pissu!!
Abe, bhonsiriwalon, Amrika chale agye to kya ustad ban gaye?
USA me baitha hai, Amriki logon ke choot bajarahe ho!!
.....
``
Brilliant sir absolutely brilliant...took me right back to my college days where certain students could wax as lyrical as you. Such command, such effortless use of the `gali` is rarely seen, I think you have found your true metier here. Those unappreciative of your talents will call you a ``jarring flap-mouthed lout!`` but ignore them I say. To the ones who call you ``the most infectious pestilence upon earth`` well what do they know. Just don`t let you mind wander - it`s far too small to be let out on its own - concentrate upon the task at hand. And thank you for writing we`re all challenged by your unique point of view.
Subroto
``...Tum loog kya jaante ho Islam ke bare mein? Tere qualifications he kay hain?
Behen-chood, salle choot ke pissu!!
Abe, bhonsiriwalon, Amrika chale agye to kya ustad ban gaye?
USA me baitha hai, Amriki logon ke choot bajarahe ho!!
.....
``
Brilliant sir absolutely brilliant...took me right back to my college days where certain students could wax as lyrical as you. Such command, such effortless use of the `gali` is rarely seen, I think you have found your true metier here. Those unappreciative of your talents will call you a ``jarring flap-mouthed lout!`` but ignore them I say. To the ones who call you ``the most infectious pestilence upon earth`` well what do they know. Just don`t let you mind wander - it`s far too small to be let out on its own - concentrate upon the task at hand. And thank you for writing we`re all challenged by your unique point of view.
Subroto
#246 Posted by scout on July 28, 2002 12:01:47 pm
Chowk editors,
regarding post #241 by a loser called `KhanSahib,`
isn`t it your job to censor these kinds of posts?
why don`t you let some nice, polite regular chowkies like temporal and saminashah etc... take over some of these responsibilities if you don`t have the time to do it.
it would save your readers from enduring extremely offensive posts.
regarding post #241 by a loser called `KhanSahib,`
isn`t it your job to censor these kinds of posts?
why don`t you let some nice, polite regular chowkies like temporal and saminashah etc... take over some of these responsibilities if you don`t have the time to do it.
it would save your readers from enduring extremely offensive posts.
#245 Posted by Banjaara on July 28, 2002 12:01:47 pm
Khan Saheb # 241
[Behen-chood, salle choot ke pissu!!
Abe, bhonsiriwalon, Amrika chale agye to kya ustad ban gaye?
USA me baitha hai, Amriki logon ke choot bajarahe ho!!
Aur humari gaand marna chata hai!!
To to salla, bhenchood, gaddar hai.
Tu to jhannum me jale ga, mader-chood!!
Ab teri gaand phategi, Bhonsiriwale!!
Humare log, Insha Allah,]
Janaab Khan Saheb,
In tamaam gaaliyon ke darmiyan ALLAH ka naam
kuch sahih nahin lagta.Kya khyal hai.DonoN main
say ek ko choRna hoga.
PS:I thought there were some rules on the Chowk,
seems I was wrong as usual.
[Behen-chood, salle choot ke pissu!!
Abe, bhonsiriwalon, Amrika chale agye to kya ustad ban gaye?
USA me baitha hai, Amriki logon ke choot bajarahe ho!!
Aur humari gaand marna chata hai!!
To to salla, bhenchood, gaddar hai.
Tu to jhannum me jale ga, mader-chood!!
Ab teri gaand phategi, Bhonsiriwale!!
Humare log, Insha Allah,]
Janaab Khan Saheb,
In tamaam gaaliyon ke darmiyan ALLAH ka naam
kuch sahih nahin lagta.Kya khyal hai.DonoN main
say ek ko choRna hoga.
PS:I thought there were some rules on the Chowk,
seems I was wrong as usual.
#244 Posted by Banjaara on July 28, 2002 12:01:47 pm
Pankaj # 240
Chetaavni ke liye aap ka abhaari hun.Vaisay...
khat ka mazmuN bhaanp letay hain lifafa dekh kar:)
Regards.
Chetaavni ke liye aap ka abhaari hun.Vaisay...
khat ka mazmuN bhaanp letay hain lifafa dekh kar:)
Regards.
#243 Posted by Banjaara on July 28, 2002 12:01:47 pm
Busharraf # 239
Chotay Mian,
You talk too much.I said THREE things in my post
to you,and you did not address any ONE. Instead
went on yapping about Muslim,Islam,Pakistan blah
blah.
1.Do you agree that all the countries I mentioned
should be reverted to India per your theory.
2.You were forcibly converted to Islam,now is your chance to become a Hindu (sanatan dharam or Arya Samaj... I have no problem with either one)
3.I asked for your phone number in `Pindi,because
I know you are an Indian.Dare to prove
me a liar ?
PS: Don`t worry about acceptance as a Hindu,
Mr.K.S.Sudarshan has started a move
whereby cases like your`s are given
due consideration.
Chotay Mian,
You talk too much.I said THREE things in my post
to you,and you did not address any ONE. Instead
went on yapping about Muslim,Islam,Pakistan blah
blah.
1.Do you agree that all the countries I mentioned
should be reverted to India per your theory.
2.You were forcibly converted to Islam,now is your chance to become a Hindu (sanatan dharam or Arya Samaj... I have no problem with either one)
3.I asked for your phone number in `Pindi,because
I know you are an Indian.Dare to prove
me a liar ?
PS: Don`t worry about acceptance as a Hindu,
Mr.K.S.Sudarshan has started a move
whereby cases like your`s are given
due consideration.
#241 Posted by harimau on July 26, 2002 10:48:18 pm
Ref wholly-precious-you #: 236
[“Krispy Kreme donuts, fresh from the fryer! Nothing better in the world.”
…i agree…but i don’t think you can get krispy kreme here as yet…and certainly not fresh from the fryer….]
Sadly, even in the US, they are common only in the South. I paid close to $2 for my first Krispy Kreme at the Penn Station in NY. It was worth every penny.
[“Krispy Kreme donuts, fresh from the fryer! Nothing better in the world.”
…i agree…but i don’t think you can get krispy kreme here as yet…and certainly not fresh from the fryer….]
Sadly, even in the US, they are common only in the South. I paid close to $2 for my first Krispy Kreme at the Penn Station in NY. It was worth every penny.
#240 Posted by harimau on July 26, 2002 10:48:18 pm
Ref 12-head #: 103
[So Thats what HARAMI.OU was doing .....flying Al Cheapo eventhough its a................____________Airlines!]
I don`t have a problem flying Emirate Airlines because the planes are Airbus and the crew on the flight deck is European. No camel jockeys or those who trained on flying carpets are given responsible positions in this airline.
Al Cheapo? Don`t know about that. Had to get my ticket within a week and accepted whatever I was told was available. By the way, the flight was full. The service was good.
I have flown Kuwait, PIA and Air India too. Also Garuda and Malaysian. PanAm, Alitalia, Northworst, Singapore, Lufthansa, Virgin Atlantic also. My schedule may not permit me to demand that I will fly only certain airlines, though that would help me accumulate miles.
[While you were in Chennai didnt Maduri(tamil) commit suicide following Simrans sister overdosed on prescription medications?]
Could be but I don`t follow the cine scene. Why do you want to know? Did you prescribe those pills?
[So Thats what HARAMI.OU was doing .....flying Al Cheapo eventhough its a................____________Airlines!]
I don`t have a problem flying Emirate Airlines because the planes are Airbus and the crew on the flight deck is European. No camel jockeys or those who trained on flying carpets are given responsible positions in this airline.
Al Cheapo? Don`t know about that. Had to get my ticket within a week and accepted whatever I was told was available. By the way, the flight was full. The service was good.
I have flown Kuwait, PIA and Air India too. Also Garuda and Malaysian. PanAm, Alitalia, Northworst, Singapore, Lufthansa, Virgin Atlantic also. My schedule may not permit me to demand that I will fly only certain airlines, though that would help me accumulate miles.
[While you were in Chennai didnt Maduri(tamil) commit suicide following Simrans sister overdosed on prescription medications?]
Could be but I don`t follow the cine scene. Why do you want to know? Did you prescribe those pills?
#239 Posted by khansahib on July 26, 2002 10:48:18 pm
To all Chowkwallas who talk ill about Islam:
Haramzadon, tum ko Islam ke bare me talk karne ka haq he kya hai???!
Tum loog kya jaante ho Islam ke bare mein? Tere qualifications he kay hain?
Behen-chood, salle choot ke pissu!!
Abe, bhonsiriwalon, Amrika chale agye to kya ustad ban gaye?
USA me baitha hai, Amriki logon ke choot bajarahe ho!!
Pakistan aa to dekh loonga!!
Dimag to sahi hai? Hume ullo bana raha hai?
Aur humari gaand marna chata hai!!
Kutton ke aulad, to apne aap ko Pakistani kaise keh sakta hai?
To to salla, bhenchood, gaddar hai.
Tu to jhannum me jale ga, mader-chood!!
Sun le, main yeh nahi sahoonga!!
Main dekh loonga tum sab logon ko?
Kutte!! Shoaib Saddiqui, thujhe to mein dekh loonga.
Main abhi pindi anne wala hoon
Kehta hai Kashmir par humara koi haq nahi hai.
Kashmir ko waapas de do
Hum to Kashmir ko leke he rahenge
Varna Kashmir ko jala dalenge
Ab teri gaand phategi, Bhonsiriwale!!
Humare log, Insha Allah, saare Hindoostan ko jala dalenge!
Humare mujahadddin khatam kar daalenge poore Kashmir ko
Phir Dilli par kabza karenge aur Adwani aur BJP ki gaand marenge.
Chauda August ko dekh lena hum ko.
Lal kila par Pakistan ki hukumat rahegi
Hindoo, tera katil-e-aam kar ke rahenge!!
Nuclear war ho jaaye to kya. Mein aur mere bhai Hindustaniyon ki gaand phar ke rakh denge.
Ab dekh kaise baat karta hai Islam ke khilaf?
Bhonsiriwala!!
Haramzadon, tum ko Islam ke bare me talk karne ka haq he kya hai???!
Tum loog kya jaante ho Islam ke bare mein? Tere qualifications he kay hain?
Behen-chood, salle choot ke pissu!!
Abe, bhonsiriwalon, Amrika chale agye to kya ustad ban gaye?
USA me baitha hai, Amriki logon ke choot bajarahe ho!!
Pakistan aa to dekh loonga!!
Dimag to sahi hai? Hume ullo bana raha hai?
Aur humari gaand marna chata hai!!
Kutton ke aulad, to apne aap ko Pakistani kaise keh sakta hai?
To to salla, bhenchood, gaddar hai.
Tu to jhannum me jale ga, mader-chood!!
Sun le, main yeh nahi sahoonga!!
Main dekh loonga tum sab logon ko?
Kutte!! Shoaib Saddiqui, thujhe to mein dekh loonga.
Main abhi pindi anne wala hoon
Kehta hai Kashmir par humara koi haq nahi hai.
Kashmir ko waapas de do
Hum to Kashmir ko leke he rahenge
Varna Kashmir ko jala dalenge
Ab teri gaand phategi, Bhonsiriwale!!
Humare log, Insha Allah, saare Hindoostan ko jala dalenge!
Humare mujahadddin khatam kar daalenge poore Kashmir ko
Phir Dilli par kabza karenge aur Adwani aur BJP ki gaand marenge.
Chauda August ko dekh lena hum ko.
Lal kila par Pakistan ki hukumat rahegi
Hindoo, tera katil-e-aam kar ke rahenge!!
Nuclear war ho jaaye to kya. Mein aur mere bhai Hindustaniyon ki gaand phar ke rakh denge.
Ab dekh kaise baat karta hai Islam ke khilaf?
Bhonsiriwala!!
#238 Posted by Pankaj on July 26, 2002 10:48:18 pm
Banjara jee
``Baalak ! hum tum se ati prasann huay.On the basis
of your analysis,not only Kashmir but Afghanistan,
Pakistan,Sri Lanka,Nepal,Bhutan,Sikkim and Bangla-desh should immediately be reverted to India.
``
Yeh baalak mujhe to kuch sandigdha prateet hota hai, shriman. Awashya hi yeh koi bahurupiya hai. Yeh dharatee manushya-lok hai, devlok nahiN. Ata-ev jab koi manushya dev hone ka bhram utpann kare to manushya ko saavdhaan ho jaana chahiye.
``Baalak ! hum tum se ati prasann huay.On the basis
of your analysis,not only Kashmir but Afghanistan,
Pakistan,Sri Lanka,Nepal,Bhutan,Sikkim and Bangla-desh should immediately be reverted to India.
``
Yeh baalak mujhe to kuch sandigdha prateet hota hai, shriman. Awashya hi yeh koi bahurupiya hai. Yeh dharatee manushya-lok hai, devlok nahiN. Ata-ev jab koi manushya dev hone ka bhram utpann kare to manushya ko saavdhaan ho jaana chahiye.
#237 Posted by busharraf on July 26, 2002 10:48:18 pm
Banjaara #235,
I did not say that all Muslims should convert to Hinduism. I just stated the facts as they are. If you want or like to be a Muslim then you should do so. But please follow it honestly. Do not be like the taliban and other madarassa graduates of Pakistan and engage in terrorism. If you believe in the kind of ideals of Islam that tahmed32 mian, and a couple of others outlined, then all power to you. But do not follow the militant Islam that we have been brain washed to follow in Pakistan. I am not changing my religion, why should I, or you, or others for that matter? Also, from what I understand you cannot be converted to a Hindu by any ritual. The thing learned from knowledgeable people in this area is that Hinduism is a state of mind. If you feel, or believe, in your mind (consciousness) that you are Hindu, then you are Hindu. Also, I think it is possible to be both if one looks at Islam in the proper perspective. Take for example what tahmed321 mian said earlier. Hinduism or Hindu philosophy believes in the same good moral values. Many of you madarassah graduates will not believe this, I know. But who gave the monopoly on virtue to the Muslims? Prophet Mohammed was just an ordinary person. But he was an astute politician and leader. He was able to synthesize a code of conduct that was kind and just, for that time he lived in, and when the nomads of the region needed some thing to follow. There was now real philosophy of life in his words. They were commandments that he laid out. He was a good arbitrator so he was able to make peace amongst the people and make a following. He said and dictated many right things and the people also raised him on a pedestal. But I think many of the people who followed him were just power hungry and made the people more narrow-minded and intolerant. That is why there is so much controversy among people like tahmed321 and Khan Sahib. One is an honest thinker and the other is a blind terrorist.
One more fact you guys probably did not know. Did you guys know that the word Hindu is a geographical term? The real name for Hinduism, as we know it, is Sanaatan Dharma, or Eternal Way of Life. Long time ago, everyone on the East side of the Indus River (or Sindhu River) was known as Hindu or Sindhu. The Persians, and others of the time, could not say Sindhu, so they used the term Hindu, and thus the term stuck and we, and many Hindus, use this term to this day. Not a big deal but I just found that out and wanted to share it with you.
Also, why do you (Muslims) want to convert the Hindus? If they are following something that is peaceful let them do it. I have thought about it a lot and come to the conclusion, or understanding, that there is ONLY ONE GOD, but that there are many paths to GOD. GOD is limitless, omniscient, and omnipotent. So why should we limit him/her/it????? Just because you follow Islam it does not mean you will go to Jannat!!! Others can go too!!! Also, who knows where we will go?? We could go to Heaven or Baikuntha or Swarga too.
This is pure bullshit what we are taught by our imams in Pakistan and elsewhere. They tell us to do terror and kill innocent people just because they (Hindu kafirs) think different form us. Why others cannot think differently? Why can we NOT question the Quran or our Imams and Mullahs? We should be able to question or challenge, or at least debate philosophy. Out religious leaders are like spoilt stupid children. If others oppose them then they take a fit and start crying and coercing (tormenting) others until they get their way. This is what has been happening over the ages. And that is why we are so much maligned in this world. And rightfully so. These Mullahs are not religious people. They have no compassion. How can they have mercy and kindness!! Since I was a small boy I have been taught to hate Hindus. But I have met a few Hindus and they are not evil. In fact many of them are better people that most Muslims I know!!! I have talked with them a lot and tried to understand them. They are just like many of us. That is why I have repeated that we are the same people.
To all, I would recommend that we let religion be a private and personal matter. We can fight about cricket or football, or other things and compete in the sports arena. Not on the battlegrounds. I am really tired of all this acts of war and terrorism. I just want to live in peace and make it a safe world for my family.
Insha Allah, that day will come one day. But….
Korakoram #229,
I understand your sarcasms, but you are not constructive. You are they type who will say bullshit for entertainment, but will not suggest constructive solutions. I understand that living in America you are happy and can afford to be an armchair debater. But I am terrified for my life and my country. I love my country and do not want it ruined by people like Musharraf, or Bhutto or Mian Nawaz. Why can’t you just let go of Kashmir? What possible benefit can we gain from it? So far it has only been the cause of misery of us. A better solution would be for us to abandon our terroristic attitude and work for reunification with India. A reverse partition!!! That is a noble goal. That way Kashmir can be theirs and ours at the same time. But these basterds in power will not let this happen. They are heavily in the grips of the terror elements and will drag down our country into jhannum!!!
Shankar #221,
You are very perceptive. Yes, I am in the minority. I cannot say what I am saying publicly, on a soapbox as you say. They will kill me or rape my daughters. I am just surrounded by these terrorist and militant types. They are just so narrow-minded. I am sad to say that many are my friends and relatives. But I am trying to change my environment one at a time. There is no point to discuss this with most of the people who have murder and rape on their minds. But slowly, by right thought and action, I hope I will lay the foundation of kindness and mercy. I am by no means perfect but my ambition is to be honest, no matter how difficult the road. Sometimes, living in America is so much like opium. You all live in a dream world. You want others to fight but do not want to get your hands dirty. You keep your distance. I understand this, and often I too want to escape. But I cannot. These bloody mullahs and their followers have destroyed my life and livelihood and you guys (I do not mean you, sir) keep sending them money for their madarassahs. Why do you do this?? They just use this money for themselves and do not support the poor. They keep them uneducated and just fill their brains with hatred towards India and specifically towards Hindus. Any you Sikhs out there, do not even think they support you, or Khalistan? They are just lying. I know some of these people very closely. They are just fooling you. After the Hindus they will come after you. They are using you guys against the Hindus. I also know some people in the government and they just lie through their teeth. So many times I see something in the news and know the truth to be quite different. This dictatorship in our country is bleeding us to death. Now Mr. Colin Powell will come to Pakistan in next few days and squeeze us and the government will grovel before them, but Musharraf will again lie to the public and say something convenient, and blame India. We have to clean out house first before we criticize others. Be very careful of our people in power!!!
Anyway, thank you Chowk, for letting me express my thoughts. Sometimes I just get suffocated. This is a good forum for me to express my thoughts. My aim is to bring peace in my life and society. I do not necessarily want to die for it, but I am willing to die for it, if that sacrifice required of me.
I did not say that all Muslims should convert to Hinduism. I just stated the facts as they are. If you want or like to be a Muslim then you should do so. But please follow it honestly. Do not be like the taliban and other madarassa graduates of Pakistan and engage in terrorism. If you believe in the kind of ideals of Islam that tahmed32 mian, and a couple of others outlined, then all power to you. But do not follow the militant Islam that we have been brain washed to follow in Pakistan. I am not changing my religion, why should I, or you, or others for that matter? Also, from what I understand you cannot be converted to a Hindu by any ritual. The thing learned from knowledgeable people in this area is that Hinduism is a state of mind. If you feel, or believe, in your mind (consciousness) that you are Hindu, then you are Hindu. Also, I think it is possible to be both if one looks at Islam in the proper perspective. Take for example what tahmed321 mian said earlier. Hinduism or Hindu philosophy believes in the same good moral values. Many of you madarassah graduates will not believe this, I know. But who gave the monopoly on virtue to the Muslims? Prophet Mohammed was just an ordinary person. But he was an astute politician and leader. He was able to synthesize a code of conduct that was kind and just, for that time he lived in, and when the nomads of the region needed some thing to follow. There was now real philosophy of life in his words. They were commandments that he laid out. He was a good arbitrator so he was able to make peace amongst the people and make a following. He said and dictated many right things and the people also raised him on a pedestal. But I think many of the people who followed him were just power hungry and made the people more narrow-minded and intolerant. That is why there is so much controversy among people like tahmed321 and Khan Sahib. One is an honest thinker and the other is a blind terrorist.
One more fact you guys probably did not know. Did you guys know that the word Hindu is a geographical term? The real name for Hinduism, as we know it, is Sanaatan Dharma, or Eternal Way of Life. Long time ago, everyone on the East side of the Indus River (or Sindhu River) was known as Hindu or Sindhu. The Persians, and others of the time, could not say Sindhu, so they used the term Hindu, and thus the term stuck and we, and many Hindus, use this term to this day. Not a big deal but I just found that out and wanted to share it with you.
Also, why do you (Muslims) want to convert the Hindus? If they are following something that is peaceful let them do it. I have thought about it a lot and come to the conclusion, or understanding, that there is ONLY ONE GOD, but that there are many paths to GOD. GOD is limitless, omniscient, and omnipotent. So why should we limit him/her/it????? Just because you follow Islam it does not mean you will go to Jannat!!! Others can go too!!! Also, who knows where we will go?? We could go to Heaven or Baikuntha or Swarga too.
This is pure bullshit what we are taught by our imams in Pakistan and elsewhere. They tell us to do terror and kill innocent people just because they (Hindu kafirs) think different form us. Why others cannot think differently? Why can we NOT question the Quran or our Imams and Mullahs? We should be able to question or challenge, or at least debate philosophy. Out religious leaders are like spoilt stupid children. If others oppose them then they take a fit and start crying and coercing (tormenting) others until they get their way. This is what has been happening over the ages. And that is why we are so much maligned in this world. And rightfully so. These Mullahs are not religious people. They have no compassion. How can they have mercy and kindness!! Since I was a small boy I have been taught to hate Hindus. But I have met a few Hindus and they are not evil. In fact many of them are better people that most Muslims I know!!! I have talked with them a lot and tried to understand them. They are just like many of us. That is why I have repeated that we are the same people.
To all, I would recommend that we let religion be a private and personal matter. We can fight about cricket or football, or other things and compete in the sports arena. Not on the battlegrounds. I am really tired of all this acts of war and terrorism. I just want to live in peace and make it a safe world for my family.
Insha Allah, that day will come one day. But….
Korakoram #229,
I understand your sarcasms, but you are not constructive. You are they type who will say bullshit for entertainment, but will not suggest constructive solutions. I understand that living in America you are happy and can afford to be an armchair debater. But I am terrified for my life and my country. I love my country and do not want it ruined by people like Musharraf, or Bhutto or Mian Nawaz. Why can’t you just let go of Kashmir? What possible benefit can we gain from it? So far it has only been the cause of misery of us. A better solution would be for us to abandon our terroristic attitude and work for reunification with India. A reverse partition!!! That is a noble goal. That way Kashmir can be theirs and ours at the same time. But these basterds in power will not let this happen. They are heavily in the grips of the terror elements and will drag down our country into jhannum!!!
Shankar #221,
You are very perceptive. Yes, I am in the minority. I cannot say what I am saying publicly, on a soapbox as you say. They will kill me or rape my daughters. I am just surrounded by these terrorist and militant types. They are just so narrow-minded. I am sad to say that many are my friends and relatives. But I am trying to change my environment one at a time. There is no point to discuss this with most of the people who have murder and rape on their minds. But slowly, by right thought and action, I hope I will lay the foundation of kindness and mercy. I am by no means perfect but my ambition is to be honest, no matter how difficult the road. Sometimes, living in America is so much like opium. You all live in a dream world. You want others to fight but do not want to get your hands dirty. You keep your distance. I understand this, and often I too want to escape. But I cannot. These bloody mullahs and their followers have destroyed my life and livelihood and you guys (I do not mean you, sir) keep sending them money for their madarassahs. Why do you do this?? They just use this money for themselves and do not support the poor. They keep them uneducated and just fill their brains with hatred towards India and specifically towards Hindus. Any you Sikhs out there, do not even think they support you, or Khalistan? They are just lying. I know some of these people very closely. They are just fooling you. After the Hindus they will come after you. They are using you guys against the Hindus. I also know some people in the government and they just lie through their teeth. So many times I see something in the news and know the truth to be quite different. This dictatorship in our country is bleeding us to death. Now Mr. Colin Powell will come to Pakistan in next few days and squeeze us and the government will grovel before them, but Musharraf will again lie to the public and say something convenient, and blame India. We have to clean out house first before we criticize others. Be very careful of our people in power!!!
Anyway, thank you Chowk, for letting me express my thoughts. Sometimes I just get suffocated. This is a good forum for me to express my thoughts. My aim is to bring peace in my life and society. I do not necessarily want to die for it, but I am willing to die for it, if that sacrifice required of me.
#236 Posted by anNy on July 26, 2002 2:02:52 pm
``i don’t think you can get krispy kreme here as yet…and certainly not fresh from the fryer….``
you HAD to tell them that haanh?
:)
you HAD to tell them that haanh?
:)
#235 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on July 26, 2002 2:02:52 pm
hahah -- err no mr stuka -- i dont contribute to dawn`s humour section -- perhaps you might like to ?
#234 Posted by semipreciousme on July 26, 2002 2:17:33 am
harimau:
“Krispy Kreme donuts, fresh from the fryer! Nothing better in the world.”
…i agree…but i don’t think you can get krispy kreme here as yet…and certainly not fresh from the fryer….
“Krispy Kreme donuts, fresh from the fryer! Nothing better in the world.”
…i agree…but i don’t think you can get krispy kreme here as yet…and certainly not fresh from the fryer….
#233 Posted by Banjaara on July 26, 2002 2:17:33 am
Busharraf # 214
[Kashmir belongs to India:
From a very long-term time line perspective, it is evident that 5000 years ago there was no Pakistan or Muslims for that matter. Hindus or people who followed and believed in the Vedic principles populated the whole region.]
Baalak ! hum tum se ati prasann huay.On the basis
of your analysis,not only Kashmir but Afghanistan,
Pakistan,Sri Lanka,Nepal,Bhutan,Sikkim and Bangla-desh should immediately be reverted to India.
Furthermore,you are again very correct about the
forcible conversion to Islam of our forefathers.
Since charity begins at home,I suggest you should
immediately renounce the ``forced religion``
and get back into the fold of Hinduism.
Could you give me your phone number so that I can
get in touch with you in the first week of august
on my next visit to ``Pindi to learn some more from you.(Shishya-Guru parampara)
Regards.
[Kashmir belongs to India:
From a very long-term time line perspective, it is evident that 5000 years ago there was no Pakistan or Muslims for that matter. Hindus or people who followed and believed in the Vedic principles populated the whole region.]
Baalak ! hum tum se ati prasann huay.On the basis
of your analysis,not only Kashmir but Afghanistan,
Pakistan,Sri Lanka,Nepal,Bhutan,Sikkim and Bangla-desh should immediately be reverted to India.
Furthermore,you are again very correct about the
forcible conversion to Islam of our forefathers.
Since charity begins at home,I suggest you should
immediately renounce the ``forced religion``
and get back into the fold of Hinduism.
Could you give me your phone number so that I can
get in touch with you in the first week of august
on my next visit to ``Pindi to learn some more from you.(Shishya-Guru parampara)
Regards.
#232 Posted by rsridhar on July 26, 2002 2:17:33 am
re:Reply #: 214
Busharraf,
A very good and bold analysis. Bold because few Paksitanis see the way you do. They wear a mask of ideology which prevents them from seeing the truth.
Sridhar
Busharraf,
A very good and bold analysis. Bold because few Paksitanis see the way you do. They wear a mask of ideology which prevents them from seeing the truth.
Sridhar
#231 Posted by stuka on July 26, 2002 2:17:33 am
Omar_Qureshi:
Dude, I hope you don`t contribute to the humor section in Dawn. (kidding again)
But, I forgive you because you referred to me as ``Mr.`` Stuka!
Cool. Y`all in Chowk better learn some manners from this fine gentleman here Mr. Qureshi and henceforth refer to me as Mr. Stuka!!!
Dude, I hope you don`t contribute to the humor section in Dawn. (kidding again)
But, I forgive you because you referred to me as ``Mr.`` Stuka!
Cool. Y`all in Chowk better learn some manners from this fine gentleman here Mr. Qureshi and henceforth refer to me as Mr. Stuka!!!
#230 Posted by stuka on July 26, 2002 2:17:33 am
Semigluttonme:
``..at last count there were at least 4/5 outlets in lhr...my day`s no good unless it starts with 2 chocolate dounts (extra creamy frosting...yummm) and coffee w/lotsa cinnamon...``
What about those self serving claims of celery and all?? Now the truth comes out.. Waisey, what pakistan, your tastes belong here I think, that too mid west or something ;0)
``..at last count there were at least 4/5 outlets in lhr...my day`s no good unless it starts with 2 chocolate dounts (extra creamy frosting...yummm) and coffee w/lotsa cinnamon...``
What about those self serving claims of celery and all?? Now the truth comes out.. Waisey, what pakistan, your tastes belong here I think, that too mid west or something ;0)
#229 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on July 26, 2002 1:24:20 am
Please visit the following Link for futher information:
http://www.fhed.org/indopakhome.html
Ras
#228 Posted by shammi on July 25, 2002 4:57:50 pm
Re: Dost-Mittar #224
``...Shammi?...``
Do you have a question for me?
``...Shammi?...``
Do you have a question for me?
#227 Posted by Karakoram on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
Busharraf,
Having read up on the Mongols and their invasion and sieges of cities in Persia, Eastern Europe etc. I`m pretty sure that many Kashmiris, Pakistanis and North Indians are descendants of both Mongol and native races. So maybe Kashmir should become a province of Mongolia.. But then again maybe we should just let them choose... whaddya say ? maybe they`re just sick of us all and want to go their own way.
Hope you liked the donuts :)
Having read up on the Mongols and their invasion and sieges of cities in Persia, Eastern Europe etc. I`m pretty sure that many Kashmiris, Pakistanis and North Indians are descendants of both Mongol and native races. So maybe Kashmir should become a province of Mongolia.. But then again maybe we should just let them choose... whaddya say ? maybe they`re just sick of us all and want to go their own way.
Hope you liked the donuts :)
#226 Posted by Karakoram on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
Busharraf #214,
I don`t think the Kashmiris would like you or I to decide for them. Why don`t we let them decide ?
Also, you forgot to mention how before the homo erectus took hold of Kashmir it belonged to the mountain apes and that we are actually their descendants. The suffering they went through remains undocumented.
I don`t think the Kashmiris would like you or I to decide for them. Why don`t we let them decide ?
Also, you forgot to mention how before the homo erectus took hold of Kashmir it belonged to the mountain apes and that we are actually their descendants. The suffering they went through remains undocumented.
#225 Posted by ana on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
Roohi,
Speaking of Irfan Husain, he has always responded to my emails. And so has Ardeshir Cowasjee. But Cowasjee is not as verbose in his responses as he is in his articles :-). Husain sahib on the other hand does manage to write a couple of lines.
Speaking of Irfan Husain, he has always responded to my emails. And so has Ardeshir Cowasjee. But Cowasjee is not as verbose in his responses as he is in his articles :-). Husain sahib on the other hand does manage to write a couple of lines.
#224 Posted by shammi on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
Busharraf:
``...Now that we are, let us try to live in peace. Why can’t we shed our militancy? ...``
Count my vote of confidence for your proposal.
``...Now that we are, let us try to live in peace. Why can’t we shed our militancy? ...``
Count my vote of confidence for your proposal.
#221 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
for ms roohi -- yes i should have clarified that we get between 100 and 150 letters by email every day and this does not include the ones that come by ordinary mail -- no newspaper responds to letters, and in any case they are not sent to be responded to, as in a newspaper can choose to carry them and the matter rests at that -- however all unsolicited articles that are sent, and if they are not used, get a response from the editor -- as for your reply from mr irfan husain, he is a contributor and not on the permanent staff and his replying or not replying to his reader`s emails is entirely his prerogative -- you also must remember that if our editorial staff replied to each and every email they receive there would be very little time to do the work and take out the paper --
#220 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
well -- lots of people to reply too - first ras -- yes probably newspapers have their internal politics just like any other large organizations -- as for dawn being closed to you (cant speak for the other newspapers) there is no such policy to bar any writer permanently unless of course issues of plagiariasm or other kinds of dishonesty involved -- also, its not clear if you sent articles or letters -- however, you can send me articles and i can pass them on, on the normal email and address it to omar r. quraishi, assistant editor -- and as you can tell im not the ``cricket legend`` -- he probably is at least twice my age if not more --
now on to mr rsaxena -- your comment made me laugh -- of course i knew mr stuka was being more than mildly sarcastic and that was precisely the point of my initial comment, which i think you missed --
and tahmed321: well, im sure me and my colleagues are glad to see that you see the online edition of the paper serves a useful purpose --
now on to mr rsaxena -- your comment made me laugh -- of course i knew mr stuka was being more than mildly sarcastic and that was precisely the point of my initial comment, which i think you missed --
and tahmed321: well, im sure me and my colleagues are glad to see that you see the online edition of the paper serves a useful purpose --
#219 Posted by shankar on July 25, 2002 2:38:26 pm
Busharraf,
#214
Keep up the good work, buddy! Indians are going to nominate you as a honorary Indian citizen:))
Lemme ask you this, seriously...If you stood on a soapbox in Pakistan & said what you said in #214 publicly..I`d be curious to know how the common man in Pakistan (in general) would react?
I say this cos we Indians (in general) are as prejudiced as Pakistanis. I`ll bet you the INDIAN response will be ``this guy Busharraf will be hanged for treason against the state...or hanged for blasphemy against the good name of Islam; for expressing views like that!``..
#214
Keep up the good work, buddy! Indians are going to nominate you as a honorary Indian citizen:))
Lemme ask you this, seriously...If you stood on a soapbox in Pakistan & said what you said in #214 publicly..I`d be curious to know how the common man in Pakistan (in general) would react?
I say this cos we Indians (in general) are as prejudiced as Pakistanis. I`ll bet you the INDIAN response will be ``this guy Busharraf will be hanged for treason against the state...or hanged for blasphemy against the good name of Islam; for expressing views like that!``..
#218 Posted by sadna on July 25, 2002 8:40:22 am
dost-mittar #210
Consider, two parties seeking `peace` (the Pakistani establishment and most of the Hurriyat/jihadis and their overseas supporters) have not enunciated even among themselves any coherent vision or consensus of what they really aim for Kashmiris after driving India out. They donot even agree among themselves what is their goal, independence or accession, an Islamic state or pluralist democracy. They are focussed on one question only and only one point in time only, namely the question and moment of wresting sovereignty from India. All other aspects and mechanics of nationhood are left to the gods, I presume. Another `not-India` state, need I say more? `Peace` is being sought at what price.
About your comments about India, agreed. Its frightening to think that simply to save one man Modi, aadarniya Advaniji is insisting on no Presidents rule in Gujarat and so there will be no push for President`s rule in Kashmir too during the elections. IMO, the future wellbeing of India and Indians requires that unambiguously fair polls be held in Gujarat and Kashmir and the Muslim sense of security be restored. But the future wellbeing of India and Indians is being gambled upon, simply to save the h&d of one petty incompetent.
#217 Posted by tahmed321 on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
omar querishi #202 So you are a journalist who works for Dawn in Karachi. Welcome to chowk. Dawn is a fine newspaper, and I read the online version almost every day (I live in the US). Dawn frequently carries news items almost 12 to 24 hours before they show up on other (including US) online papers. I find the newspaper professional and well-balanced on reporting on India vs. Pakistan issues, Musharaff vs. Politician issues, the war against terrorism. Dawn speaks volumes for the quality of its journalists and ordinary citizens who contribute letters and opinions, as well as for the freedom of press in Pakistan.
#216 Posted by rsaxena on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
re: omar_quraishi
{hahah mr stuka or whoever this guy is -- u have dunkin donuts at even gas stations in karachi, lahore and islamabad -- yet another typical example of distorted media images warping an infantile mind hahah }
...genius, he was being sarcastic...``hahah``...infantile mind you said?....``hahah``
{hahah mr stuka or whoever this guy is -- u have dunkin donuts at even gas stations in karachi, lahore and islamabad -- yet another typical example of distorted media images warping an infantile mind hahah }
...genius, he was being sarcastic...``hahah``...infantile mind you said?....``hahah``
#215 Posted by harimau on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
Ref wholly-precious-you #: 194
[Kidding about the Jehad stuff, though I can`t believe Pakistan has Dunkin Donuts and India does not!! That s@cks.``]
Krispy Kreme donuts, fresh from the fryer! Nothing better in the world.
[Kidding about the Jehad stuff, though I can`t believe Pakistan has Dunkin Donuts and India does not!! That s@cks.``]
Krispy Kreme donuts, fresh from the fryer! Nothing better in the world.
#214 Posted by rsridhar on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
re:Reply #: 188
MT,
Certainly, much of what you say is true. Parsees benefitted a lot initially by the benovolence of the ruler of Gujarat who allowed the community to live and practice their religion on the sole condition that they need to dress like the local people and learn their language.
Much later, Parsees have benefitted from British rule. While other Indians might have had caste-restrictions about starting a business, Parsees seem to have thrived. Same can be said of Marwarees, who are prosperous money-lenders in South.
While above is true, we cannot easily dismiss the role of vote-bank politics. Did you ever wonder why a caste-conscious society in Tamil Nadu hardly ever had any hindu-muslim riots while clashes among castes and sub-castes have occurred at regular intervals? Muslims in Tamil Nadu have never had any conflict of ideology with the Dravidian parties, thereby not threatening their vote-bank. In Gujarat, it is very different. BJP is totally opposed by muslims of that state. Muslims in Gujarat form a significant minority. The only way BJP can win a majority there is when the majority hindus vote en-masse for BJP. This is unlikely to happen because hindu votes are traditionally divided along caste lines. So, it is necessary for BJP to seek minority votes. Muslims in Gujarat are in no mood to oblige. Hence, the pogrom, which is kind of an expt to see if a popular sentiment (based on intense hatred against muslims)will unite hindus. Gandhiji once united all communities thr` the message of love. BJP is doing the opposite. Its politics is divisive and not in country`s interest.
Sridhar
MT,
Certainly, much of what you say is true. Parsees benefitted a lot initially by the benovolence of the ruler of Gujarat who allowed the community to live and practice their religion on the sole condition that they need to dress like the local people and learn their language.
Much later, Parsees have benefitted from British rule. While other Indians might have had caste-restrictions about starting a business, Parsees seem to have thrived. Same can be said of Marwarees, who are prosperous money-lenders in South.
While above is true, we cannot easily dismiss the role of vote-bank politics. Did you ever wonder why a caste-conscious society in Tamil Nadu hardly ever had any hindu-muslim riots while clashes among castes and sub-castes have occurred at regular intervals? Muslims in Tamil Nadu have never had any conflict of ideology with the Dravidian parties, thereby not threatening their vote-bank. In Gujarat, it is very different. BJP is totally opposed by muslims of that state. Muslims in Gujarat form a significant minority. The only way BJP can win a majority there is when the majority hindus vote en-masse for BJP. This is unlikely to happen because hindu votes are traditionally divided along caste lines. So, it is necessary for BJP to seek minority votes. Muslims in Gujarat are in no mood to oblige. Hence, the pogrom, which is kind of an expt to see if a popular sentiment (based on intense hatred against muslims)will unite hindus. Gandhiji once united all communities thr` the message of love. BJP is doing the opposite. Its politics is divisive and not in country`s interest.
Sridhar
#213 Posted by arjun_m on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
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#212 Posted by roohi on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
omar #202
``mr dost mittar -- it seems your an avid reader of dawn since you quote it endlessly -- actually u will be suprised we get between 100-150 emails everyday from readers of Indian origin -- ``
Really ? How many does Dawn reply to ? I was very surprised to get a lovely response to my one and only e-mail from Mr. Irfan Hussain.
``mr dost mittar -- it seems your an avid reader of dawn since you quote it endlessly -- actually u will be suprised we get between 100-150 emails everyday from readers of Indian origin -- ``
Really ? How many does Dawn reply to ? I was very surprised to get a lovely response to my one and only e-mail from Mr. Irfan Hussain.
#211 Posted by MT on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
Wanted to share this interesting article by an Iranian.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/11/opinion/11TAHE.html
Thanks
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/11/opinion/11TAHE.html
Thanks
#210 Posted by busharraf on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
Hi Guys/Gals, Shoaib here.
Sorry to be out of sight for many days. I had been to Karachi on business (and eat Dunkin Donuts!!). Sorry, but I did not meet KhanSahib there. Wouldn’t want to anyway!!
Anyway, here is what I promised wadera (#100): Please do pass it on to Benazir, but the information is intuitive if one thinks about it. I will try to be brief and will answer point by point. You can check up the details on the Internet. Here goes:
Kashmir belongs to India:
From a very long-term time line perspective, it is evident that 5000 years ago there was no Pakistan or Muslims for that matter. Hindus or people who followed and believed in the Vedic principles populated the whole region. Everybody recognizes this. In the Hindu epic Mahabharat there is mention of Kashmir’s Kings. That King was Gonand II. Please refer to Kalhan’s Raj Tarangini. Other Hindu/Buddhist Kingdoms and Dynasties from Sunder Sen to Asoka who ruled from present day Afghanistan are also well documented. In fact Shrinagari was established around 250 BC by Asoka very near present day Srinagar. After that King Kanishka, Lalitaditya, Shankarwarman (founder of Shankarpura – now know as Pattan) also ruled Kashmir up to about 1000 years ago. These were all Hindu Kings. The invasion of the Mongols at around this time was the start of brutality terrorism in Kashmir. This is also well documented and is accepted. It should also be noted that around this time millions of Hindus were ruthlessly slaughtered while they be being taken as slaves to present day Iran via the Hindu Kush mountain range. Have any of you Muslim chauvinists ever wondered why Hindu Kush was named so? Bhai jaan, they were butchered in such high numbers that the region was named for it!!! This was the time the systematic slaughter and forced mass conversion of Hindus started to take place. WE ARE DECENDENTS OF THOSE VERY PEOPLE. Muslims did not come from Arabia to populate Pakistan or India. We have NOTHING in common with the Arabs or the Persian people. We have everything in common with the Indians and Hindus. Mere Jaan, just look at yourself in the mirror!!! Except for our cut foreskin (for men) there is no difference between Hindus and Muslims. For your information Shah Mir (1338 AD) was the one who established the first Muslim Dynasty. His descendents converted thousands upon thousands Hindus by the sword. The lucky ones escaped to present day Kashmir and India. Even there these people were followed and slaughtered. Such is our shameful legacy.
It seems that many of the people who were forcefully converted kept their long held beliefs and gave rise to the Sufi sect of Muslims. This was in addition to the Shias and Sunnis that are the predominant sects. These Sufis are different from the mainstream Shias and Sunnis, who as we all know so well, have a great deal of animosity towards each other. We in Pakistan also detest the Sufis and the Admediyas because their belief is different form ours. They have Peers and have a tradition in paying reverence to Hindu sages and rishis. Take for example of how the LET and JEM groups took over Hazratbal Mosque in Srinagar and eventually destroyed the relic of Hazrat Mohammed, which was a piece of his hair. The people used to go to the mosque and pray to this relic, which is not in Muslim tradition. That is why the militant Sunnis destroyed the relic and damaged the mosque, to teach the Kashmiri Muslims a lesson. Can’t you see this??? It is evident after my investigation over the years. I have read and talked with hundreds of people here in Pakistan and on the Internet. Here, people are reluctant to accept this out of pride but when they reason it they do accept it. Any then go on to justify their actions. Their explanation is generally that it happened a long time ago and we are not responsible. That is just a scam. We, collectively, are responsible as a people!! But knowing this now, we should stop all proselytizing and terrorist activities.
Many times I think that the real problem between India and Pakistan is not territory, but it is that our militant section of society wants to convert all of India to Islam. These Maudoodis will not rest in peace until this happens. This is evidenced by the vehement and poisonous words of our Infamous KhanSahib.
Now, with the help of people like KhanSahib and his brand of Islam, these zealots have infiltrated Kashmir and are killing not only the few Hindus who still remain there, but they are also butchering the Sufis and other such minority Muslims there.
Anyway, even during the 19th century Kashmir was ruled by Sikhs (Ranjit Singh) who won Kashmir from the Afghans. Gulaab Singh, a Dogra, was then appointed the ruler of Kashmir who in 1846 signed a treaty with the British and became an independent ruler of Jammu & Kashmir (and Ladakh). Gulaab Singh had to accept the suzerainty of the British and had to pay them an annual fee of 7.5 million rupees for his recognition as ruler. During the Partition of India Gulaab Singh’s son, Hari Singh, like any other Maharaja of the time, could decide between India and Pakistan. He dilly-dallied and was probably considering to remain independent. But during this time of indecision Pakistan attacked Kashmir in an effort to capture it by force. This was when Pakistan first violated the Partition of India Agreement. Then on 22nd October 1947, the Pakistan Army with the help of some tribals attacked Kashmir again and tried to cut of the supply routes to Srinagar from Jammu. Hari Singh still dilly-dallied but signed the now famous “Instrument of Accession” which states that only when the invaders reach close to Srinagar that he would join India. It should be noted that the Instrument of Accession was strongly supported by Sheikh Abdullah who was a known leader of the Kashmiri Muslims. It seems that Hari Singh thought that his army could hold back the invading Pakistani Army. When he realized this he joined India, which was then morally obligated to protect its territory. The Indian Forces, it seems got total support from the local Kashmiri people and the Indian Forces were able to stop the Pakistani Army at the present day Line of Control.
As the Indian forces kept the Pakistani Army at bay, Nehru, in consultation with Mountbatten went to the UN and offered a plebiscite in Kashmir. He was legally or morally not obligated to do so. He was an Idealist. Now our government is demanding a plebiscite. But I think, in all honesty the demographics of Kashmir have changed and the people there are not representative of the Kashmiri people. Most of the people in the portion of Kashmir ruled by Pakistan are transplants and are the terrorist elements, mercenaries from the Arab countries. In Indian ruled Kashmir, the Kashmiri Hindus have been driven out so how can they vote? It is no longer the Kashmir that it was during 1947.
The best solution, I think, would be to forget Kashmir. I know this is hard for many Pakistanis to accept. We have been brainwashed in school on how Kashmir belongs to us. Many people who have now investigated the facts will agree to my assertion. Please talk to the people who lived during that time like I have. They know what really happened. I do not believe the distorted history that we have been taught.
I would like our government to invest in education and our infrastructure. Let us compete with India in economics, not war!! Let us compete with Indians with brainpower and democracy. But until we have real reforms this will not happen, and people like me will leave to the US or England were we could live in peace and prosperity. I think a lot will go wrong with Pakistan before reform comes. I just hope Allah Tala gives our leaders the courage and wisdom to face the facts.
So, I hope you will now realize why I think there is no difference between the Indians and us. We are the same people. Before 1947 there WAS NO PAKISTAN. Now that we are, let us try to live in peace. Why can’t we shed our militancy? I disagree with hahmed321 bhai, a bit, in that Islam IS a militant religion. There are many things in the Quran that are against a peaceful way of life. Of course there are compassionate parts too. But if you read it carefully, they apply only to the faithful, not to the Kafirs that KhanSahib is referring to. KhanSahib is an extreme and should be denounced by all right thinking people. But we should also stand up to terrorism both here and in India. More so in India, as these terrorists are infiltrating into India for cross-border terrorism. Even our leaders have begun to accept this. If we do not stop them now then they will eventually kill us all.
Thank you for taking the time to read my answer. I have tried to remain calm at the advice of tahmed321, rsridhar, and others. Please do comment and discuss with me your thoughts. It is only through discussion that we can come to a lasting understanding. Any yes, I will accept any challenges from KhanSahib and his band of followers out there.
Note to editors: Should this be submitted as a new Chowk (main article) posting? I am not registered as a contributor to the main text articles.
Sorry to be out of sight for many days. I had been to Karachi on business (and eat Dunkin Donuts!!). Sorry, but I did not meet KhanSahib there. Wouldn’t want to anyway!!
Anyway, here is what I promised wadera (#100): Please do pass it on to Benazir, but the information is intuitive if one thinks about it. I will try to be brief and will answer point by point. You can check up the details on the Internet. Here goes:
Kashmir belongs to India:
From a very long-term time line perspective, it is evident that 5000 years ago there was no Pakistan or Muslims for that matter. Hindus or people who followed and believed in the Vedic principles populated the whole region. Everybody recognizes this. In the Hindu epic Mahabharat there is mention of Kashmir’s Kings. That King was Gonand II. Please refer to Kalhan’s Raj Tarangini. Other Hindu/Buddhist Kingdoms and Dynasties from Sunder Sen to Asoka who ruled from present day Afghanistan are also well documented. In fact Shrinagari was established around 250 BC by Asoka very near present day Srinagar. After that King Kanishka, Lalitaditya, Shankarwarman (founder of Shankarpura – now know as Pattan) also ruled Kashmir up to about 1000 years ago. These were all Hindu Kings. The invasion of the Mongols at around this time was the start of brutality terrorism in Kashmir. This is also well documented and is accepted. It should also be noted that around this time millions of Hindus were ruthlessly slaughtered while they be being taken as slaves to present day Iran via the Hindu Kush mountain range. Have any of you Muslim chauvinists ever wondered why Hindu Kush was named so? Bhai jaan, they were butchered in such high numbers that the region was named for it!!! This was the time the systematic slaughter and forced mass conversion of Hindus started to take place. WE ARE DECENDENTS OF THOSE VERY PEOPLE. Muslims did not come from Arabia to populate Pakistan or India. We have NOTHING in common with the Arabs or the Persian people. We have everything in common with the Indians and Hindus. Mere Jaan, just look at yourself in the mirror!!! Except for our cut foreskin (for men) there is no difference between Hindus and Muslims. For your information Shah Mir (1338 AD) was the one who established the first Muslim Dynasty. His descendents converted thousands upon thousands Hindus by the sword. The lucky ones escaped to present day Kashmir and India. Even there these people were followed and slaughtered. Such is our shameful legacy.
It seems that many of the people who were forcefully converted kept their long held beliefs and gave rise to the Sufi sect of Muslims. This was in addition to the Shias and Sunnis that are the predominant sects. These Sufis are different from the mainstream Shias and Sunnis, who as we all know so well, have a great deal of animosity towards each other. We in Pakistan also detest the Sufis and the Admediyas because their belief is different form ours. They have Peers and have a tradition in paying reverence to Hindu sages and rishis. Take for example of how the LET and JEM groups took over Hazratbal Mosque in Srinagar and eventually destroyed the relic of Hazrat Mohammed, which was a piece of his hair. The people used to go to the mosque and pray to this relic, which is not in Muslim tradition. That is why the militant Sunnis destroyed the relic and damaged the mosque, to teach the Kashmiri Muslims a lesson. Can’t you see this??? It is evident after my investigation over the years. I have read and talked with hundreds of people here in Pakistan and on the Internet. Here, people are reluctant to accept this out of pride but when they reason it they do accept it. Any then go on to justify their actions. Their explanation is generally that it happened a long time ago and we are not responsible. That is just a scam. We, collectively, are responsible as a people!! But knowing this now, we should stop all proselytizing and terrorist activities.
Many times I think that the real problem between India and Pakistan is not territory, but it is that our militant section of society wants to convert all of India to Islam. These Maudoodis will not rest in peace until this happens. This is evidenced by the vehement and poisonous words of our Infamous KhanSahib.
Now, with the help of people like KhanSahib and his brand of Islam, these zealots have infiltrated Kashmir and are killing not only the few Hindus who still remain there, but they are also butchering the Sufis and other such minority Muslims there.
Anyway, even during the 19th century Kashmir was ruled by Sikhs (Ranjit Singh) who won Kashmir from the Afghans. Gulaab Singh, a Dogra, was then appointed the ruler of Kashmir who in 1846 signed a treaty with the British and became an independent ruler of Jammu & Kashmir (and Ladakh). Gulaab Singh had to accept the suzerainty of the British and had to pay them an annual fee of 7.5 million rupees for his recognition as ruler. During the Partition of India Gulaab Singh’s son, Hari Singh, like any other Maharaja of the time, could decide between India and Pakistan. He dilly-dallied and was probably considering to remain independent. But during this time of indecision Pakistan attacked Kashmir in an effort to capture it by force. This was when Pakistan first violated the Partition of India Agreement. Then on 22nd October 1947, the Pakistan Army with the help of some tribals attacked Kashmir again and tried to cut of the supply routes to Srinagar from Jammu. Hari Singh still dilly-dallied but signed the now famous “Instrument of Accession” which states that only when the invaders reach close to Srinagar that he would join India. It should be noted that the Instrument of Accession was strongly supported by Sheikh Abdullah who was a known leader of the Kashmiri Muslims. It seems that Hari Singh thought that his army could hold back the invading Pakistani Army. When he realized this he joined India, which was then morally obligated to protect its territory. The Indian Forces, it seems got total support from the local Kashmiri people and the Indian Forces were able to stop the Pakistani Army at the present day Line of Control.
As the Indian forces kept the Pakistani Army at bay, Nehru, in consultation with Mountbatten went to the UN and offered a plebiscite in Kashmir. He was legally or morally not obligated to do so. He was an Idealist. Now our government is demanding a plebiscite. But I think, in all honesty the demographics of Kashmir have changed and the people there are not representative of the Kashmiri people. Most of the people in the portion of Kashmir ruled by Pakistan are transplants and are the terrorist elements, mercenaries from the Arab countries. In Indian ruled Kashmir, the Kashmiri Hindus have been driven out so how can they vote? It is no longer the Kashmir that it was during 1947.
The best solution, I think, would be to forget Kashmir. I know this is hard for many Pakistanis to accept. We have been brainwashed in school on how Kashmir belongs to us. Many people who have now investigated the facts will agree to my assertion. Please talk to the people who lived during that time like I have. They know what really happened. I do not believe the distorted history that we have been taught.
I would like our government to invest in education and our infrastructure. Let us compete with India in economics, not war!! Let us compete with Indians with brainpower and democracy. But until we have real reforms this will not happen, and people like me will leave to the US or England were we could live in peace and prosperity. I think a lot will go wrong with Pakistan before reform comes. I just hope Allah Tala gives our leaders the courage and wisdom to face the facts.
So, I hope you will now realize why I think there is no difference between the Indians and us. We are the same people. Before 1947 there WAS NO PAKISTAN. Now that we are, let us try to live in peace. Why can’t we shed our militancy? I disagree with hahmed321 bhai, a bit, in that Islam IS a militant religion. There are many things in the Quran that are against a peaceful way of life. Of course there are compassionate parts too. But if you read it carefully, they apply only to the faithful, not to the Kafirs that KhanSahib is referring to. KhanSahib is an extreme and should be denounced by all right thinking people. But we should also stand up to terrorism both here and in India. More so in India, as these terrorists are infiltrating into India for cross-border terrorism. Even our leaders have begun to accept this. If we do not stop them now then they will eventually kill us all.
Thank you for taking the time to read my answer. I have tried to remain calm at the advice of tahmed321, rsridhar, and others. Please do comment and discuss with me your thoughts. It is only through discussion that we can come to a lasting understanding. Any yes, I will accept any challenges from KhanSahib and his band of followers out there.
Note to editors: Should this be submitted as a new Chowk (main article) posting? I am not registered as a contributor to the main text articles.
#207 Posted by Shah on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
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#205 Posted by semipreciousme on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
anNy:
``LOL..what happened to the broccoli? ;)``
...ahem, that`s celery please...and well...i have my phases...:)
``LOL..what happened to the broccoli? ;)``
...ahem, that`s celery please...and well...i have my phases...:)
#204 Posted by pmishra2 on July 25, 2002 1:54:57 am
Stuka #192
Good analysis and reasoning. You may want to take into account a couple of other issues.
Kashmir is NOT seen as a localized issue by the indian middle-class but as yet another manifestation of islamic identity in a geographically vulnerable part of india. The first manifestation was, of course, Pakistan.
With the advent of mass media and TV a lot of people have partial and emotional information about these subjects (``Amarnath Pilgrims Attacked``).
This is exactly similar to manner in which the localized israel-palest
Good analysis and reasoning. You may want to take into account a couple of other issues.
Kashmir is NOT seen as a localized issue by the indian middle-class but as yet another manifestation of islamic identity in a geographically vulnerable part of india. The first manifestation was, of course, Pakistan.
With the advent of mass media and TV a lot of people have partial and emotional information about these subjects (``Amarnath Pilgrims Attacked``).
This is exactly similar to manner in which the localized israel-palest