Does a Bachelor’s degree mean education in politics

Ref Romair #: 121

[However, I don`t think the common Pakistani would care one way or the other. He/she just wants someone who can raise his/her living standards. (that is why he/she willingly migrates out of Pakistan, to non-Muslim countries regularly). But the politicians would have a field day. They would never allow a non-Muslim to come to the top of their political parties. And since he/she cannot come as the head of a major political party (PPP, PML, etc.), how could he/she become the Prime Minister.]

Don`t be silly and insult the average Pakistani. After all, the pork-eating, whiskey-swilling Jinnah became the leader of the Muslim League and the Governor-General of Pakistan.

Feroz,

No thanks for your lengthy reply. Now I feel obliged to reply in kind. Will do so after reading the whole damn thing-- and if I feel we wouldn`t be going in circles.

I do admire your hidden passion and `realism`. But why can`t one be both an idealist and a realist? Unless by realist you mean defeatist, I think one can!

Ok, lest sadna rap me on the knuckles for engaging in boardroom philosophy...

take care..

PM

re. eklavya #114?

Ek, I agree with msot of your post. I took for granted that the word `education` implied somwhat more than just content knowledge.

But I take issue whith those who seem to claim that no education is better than the system we have in Pakistan. Yes, I am in no need of being highlighted the many failings of this system in our society, from the cheating in high school examinations to the bribery or threats that ensure that medical students end up with a degree to kill. There will alwasys be those who will use education to turn more evil.

But that is part of the story. The other part is

about the hard work that many do put in and are rewarded and recognized for. And about the `lesser` values that even a faulty system can foster: organmization, responsibilty and accountability. I cannot believe that these values are COMPLETELY absent in our education system and -culture, bad as things may be.

As for your query, ``Should a nation throw its lot entirely into the hands of such people, depriving 98% of her population a chance to run for office?``, please refer to my #67 (or 66?) and Romair`s first post following that one (if you`re into novelettes :) ). In a nutshell, I`d say no, but it`s not like that any poor, common-man unpaDh with serious pretesions to elected office is being affected. On the other hand, many wadera-type a$$holes and nouveau riche through illgotten weatlth are finding themselves out of the running. Lesser evil is what it is.

Obviously this requirement thingy will have to be amended in future elections when hopefully the lower-class undeducated would have a realistic chance of winning at the polls. Till then, I`m happy even if this is the right thing for the wrong reason.

rgds,

PM

Re: Romair

``...the common Pakistani...just wants someone who can raise his/her living standard...``

And you had us believe that the common Pakistani had Kashmir run through his blood, that the ruinous hostility with India should continue until hell freezes over...What gives?

Samina: It is not easy to explain the role and power of ISI in Pakistan. The joke is that ISI is right in the middle of all-important things; it is PakISItan. I think somebody should write an article about ISI role in Pakistan. It will be worth more than 100 posts at chowk. The name of ISI will come up in any discussion regarding Kashmir, Taliban, and manipulation of politics in Pakistan and all the way to drug trade. Most of these issues were off-limit to civilian governments of BB and NS. The internal discipline of ISI is not really important because their clients who do not have the kind of military discipline mostly cause the damage. More often than usual their clients have double or multiple agendas of their own. Once they grow big enough to sustain without the backing of ISI, they no longer abide by the dictates of ISI while ISI remains in bind for the fear of these people opening up their mouth. Their clients in the past included MQM, IJI, LeT, HuM and SSP etc.

Another factor to think about is the professional capabilities of ISI agents. They come from services for 2-3 years with no background in secret services. The specialty of spying and working as secret service agents requires professional training. A major sent to ISI from a core does not bring that specialty but he becomes as ISI man at district level. A discipline in one area is often useless in others when job requires high degree of professionalism. That is why many times they have done stupid things at district levels, coming in conflict with civilian authorities, breaking the laws and at few occasions beaten up by locals. But military always comes to rescue in the name of internal investigation. Many times they have been caught red handed and again nothing civilian authorities can do except plea for the transfer of that agent.

In addition to ISI, many of these rogue sunni elements have Saudi connection too. Now they become even more protected because Saudi money helps corrupting the links and Saudi influence at national level provides cover from serious action against them. It is almost certain that Saudi backing through royal family and rich Arab Sheikh friends of NS helped him from a small time office-bearer of Tehrik-e-Istiqlal of Asghar Khan all the way to Prime Minister house. He has left behind PML (N) in the hands of another Saudis favorite, Raja Zafarul Haq who is also the president of a wholly financed Saudi enterprise called Mohtamar-e-Alam-e-Islami. The ISI has done plenty of stupid things on their own or on behest of military establishment but appeasing Saudis means additional stupidities. The direct and indirect effect of appeasing Saudis is sectarian violence that is also the by-product of Kashmir and Afghanistan failed policies.

Now that Pakistan is officially against these rogue elements, they wish to exterminate Musharraf but not willing to break their comfortable relationship with ISI. They could have easily killed many district level ISI agents, or even some in Islamabad but they have not. Their target is Musharraf and not ISI, Musharraf knows this very well and scared to death getting out of Islamabad during the last couple of months. He once had to go to Lahore recently. All Lahore was practically under curfew with his itinerary tightly kept state secret. Musharraf’s extreme fear for his own life is providing many new jokes in the establishment corridors, like how often he is wetting and / or changing his pants in a day.......every time he hears allah-o-akbar. Bookies are taking bet if Ramzan moon will be sighted first this year or Musharraf. What is 200+ lbs and still invisible under electron microscope etc etc.

This ended up on the wrong thread:

shankar #92: Your experience as an expert on, ``all things`` continues to amaze me. You have knowledge not only of your own profession, but of military strategy, and now of Pakistani politics. I would like to point you to a comment, I made in a previous reply:

``Unlike many Pakistani journalists who emotionally write about areas in which they have no knowledge (economics, military, constitution, law, etc.), Burki sticks to his areas of expertise.``

Truly knowledgeable people know the limitations of their knowledge, and don`t claim expertise in areas about which they have knowledge. Could I ask you exactly what and how you know anything about the internals of Pakistani politics? Have you been to Gawalmandi, Raja Bazar, Sabzi Mandi, Ghanta Ghar, Tilla Jogian, Kalar Kahar, Landikotal, Gwadar Beach? Have you ever eaten Takht Bai chappal kababs, Benazir Qulfa, PECHS pan, or Kareem`s samosas?

If you have done even one of the above, I will take your comments seriously. Otherwise, you are blowing out of your ear. What you say may turn out to be correct, but that will only be a coincidence.

The second point is in regard to your comments. Could I request you to take the trouble of reading the other person`s reply completely, and controlling your emtion in your own replies. And could you kindly stop assuming that others have some sort of a conspiracy theory behind every reply, and are trying to spin things.

Now to your comments:

``Go ahead, spin this any way you want..it wont change that OBVIOUS fact!!``

I printed an article by Burki. I did not give my own views. Do you even know who Burki is? What would his motivation be for spinning anything. Is he being paid by Musharraf? Could you highlight? Did it ever strike you that he may be honestly giving his own views. You can disagree with him, but why are you accusing him of, ``spinning.`` On what basis?

Also if you feel someone is spinning something, it should be directed at the author of the article. You do not know what my own views are on these amendments, since I have yet to express them. All I have stated is that I find Burki to be quite objective, but that doesn`t mean I agree with everything he states. For example, he does not like the graduation condition, while I support it.

So if you are bent upon accusing me (alongwith Burki, and anyone else who doesn`t see things the way you see them) of, ``spinning,`` at least take the trouble of waiting until I have expressed a view. How can I spin something, when I haven`t even stated a view.

``That; my dear fellow...is done by the Supreme Court of a nation..if the SUPREME COURT of Pakistan can be manipulated by the ever dominant ``saviours of the nation``, the military,...why could`nt the NSC be so manipulated?!``

This is potentially true. I have myself always stated that the Supreme Court should be the upholder of the law in Pakistan. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court hasn`t done that. You have incorrectly pointed out the reason. No one can manipulate the Supreme Court, if it does not allow itself to be manipulated.

Secondly, everyone who has ruled Pakistan has manipulated the Supreme Court, not only the military. The worst incidence being the physical storming of the Supreme Court by Nawaz Sharif`s govt., when the SC was hearing a case against him. I would be interested in your views on this.

The sad part was that the Supreme Court judges, instead of putting Nawaz Sharif in the slammer, itself, conspired against their own Chief Justice and fired him. If the Supreme Court doesn`t respect itself, who else will respect it.

How can democracy work, if the Supreme Court allows itself to be kicked around. Since that has happened, wouldn`t you agree that traditional democracy has seized to exist in Pakistan. You can blame anyone you want, but the fact is true. Without a Supreme Court, there can be no democracy.

Now my own views on the NSC: Some sort of a body is necessary to watch over the BB and NS of the world, when they are elected. The Supreme Court didn`t do it when these guys were in power. Please study BB`s jiyala judges case and NS`s court storming case. Considering the fact that Pakistan was the second most corrupt country in the world in the 90s, one would think the Supreme Court would have prosecuted someone. The Supreme Court was not manipulated by the military in the 90s, ``decade of democracy.`` Was it? Someone else was doing the manipulation, at that time.

So who should watch over the BB and NS, if the Supreme Court is incohoots with every govt. that is in power? (are you familiar with the taped cassettes about the Lahore High Court judges conversations with NS men, regarding BB`s conviction.)

I think there has to be some sort of a NSC. I agree with this. However, I think it should consist of a broader group of people, than currently suggested i.e. President, PM, Chief Ministers, Armed Forces Chiefs, Chief Justice, Privincial Chief Justices, Leader of Opposition, Governers etc. Most of all, it should only be allowed to dismiss the Prime Minister, with a 2/3rd majority, and the whole govt. only by a unanimous vote.

That`s it. It should meet once a month, and that should be its only function.

That should be the only, ``non-democratic`` check on the Prime Minister. Considering the fact that the PM, President, and most of the Chief Ministers will more than likely be from the same party, it would be difficult to get rid of the PM.

Also, I think the President should not have the power to remove the PM, or the Assembly, on his own. He should only be a voting member of the NSC. That is it. He should however have the power to appoint the Chiefs, the Governors, and some other people like the head of NAB, head of State Bank etc. But that too with at least a 50% approval of the members of the NSC.

If you look at Pakistani politics, a member of the ruling party has never (I repeat never) been prosecuted by the Supreme Court for corruption. Primarily because the head of the Ehtesab Beareau is always a puppet of the ruling Prime Minister. Also the first thing the ruling PM does is appoint his own men as the head of Pakistan`s financial institutions. Under such a situation, wouldn`t it make sense to remove the power of appointing the Ehtesab head and financial heads from the PM.

I have stated many times, that the biggest problem with democracy not being established in Pakistan is the cowardly Supreme Court. Unethical and/or cowardly Supreme Court = no democracy (doesn`t matter how many elections you hold). Had the Supreme Court given a decision on NS, when it was stormed, instead of itself firing its own Chief Justice (under the alleged tutelage of Pakistan`s future President and NS friend, Mr. Tarar), Pakistan`s democracy would have progressed by decades.

No one gives power to institutions nor to individuals. They have to stand up and get it. The military, nor anyone else, cannot manipulate institutions, to the degree you are suggesting. They can only do so if the institutions themselves are disorganized, weak, corrupt and fearful.

At the very least, the judges of the Supreme Court can resign, if they are being forced by the military or civilian govt. to do something. No one can stop them from resigning, and they have very good pension plans. Leghari resigned from the Presidentship when NS was trying to influence him. I resigned from the military, as a lowly Captain, when I didn`t agree with something, and I didn`t even have any savings or a pension, or any feudal lands.

India`s Supreme Court, if what you say is correct, has (must have) stood up for its rights, and that is why democracy is established there (I cannot say with certainity, because I do not possess your expertise in the political problems of neighboring countries).

I would like to dig into your reservoir of knowledge on Pakistani politics, and would be interested in your suggestion on how to keep a check on the Prime Ministers of Pakistan, when he/she can and has regularly manipulate the Supreme Court. The only thing I can think of is something like a diluted version of the current NSC.

By the way, the guy who wrote the original Pakistani Consitution of 73 (as a member of Z. Bhutto`s PPP), was on TV, and his ideas were inline with mine, i.e. most of the amendments like joint electorates, more power to provinces, womens` seats etc. are good. The only thing he disagreed with, like me, was that the President is being given more power than necessary. This is the view of Tehrik-i-Insaaf (perhaps the only truly honest political leadership in Pakistan) also, i.e. they feel the President should have some more power, but not too much more, and they support the idea of some sort of an NSC with a sunset clause of ten years.

But, of course, Mr. Shankar, the expert on the problems of Pakistani politics, seems to think it all to be a consipiracy theory and spinning.

Here is a piece of advice. Stick to your expertise, i.e. psychiatry and thong designing :-)

There is one astute observation by rozaiba that stands out among the many posts on this -- Bone of BA `requirement` -- thrown in front of the Pakistani electorate by Musharraf and his co conspirators -- to DIVERT ATTENTION from the CORE issue -- is Pakistani public entitled to a fair and free NORMAL Parliamentary election in October – or NOT?

this -- BA pass NOT the BB pass -- condition as rozaiba says -- is nothing but ``playing with the sentiments of people``:

````The filthy armed forces are good at playing with the sentiments of the people. BUT THAT IS ALL THEY CAN DO.

As incompetent and duffers as the armed forces of Pakistan are in all other areas, in this too they excel.

They place the graduation condition on one hand, WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO FURTHER THE CAUSE OF EDUCATION.````(rozaiba)

Behram #98: ``In your opinion, are today`s muslims capable of allowing any non-muslim to represent them?``

As a whole, in my opinion, Probably No. This is the brief answer. You can read furthur for details, if interested.

That does not even occur in any of the Western countries. I cannot see the US having a Muslim leadership. Jews are the only group that have done well here, and that is because they have a track record of being superbly competent.

Some Muslim areas would probably not have any problem with non-Muslims representing them. Would the people of Karachi accept Cowasjee as their mayor? Probably yes. Would Pakistan accept him as a Prime Minister. Only if he turned Pakistan into Dubai; otherwise No.

Would the PAF accept a Parsi Cheif. Yes. Would Pakistan, as a country, accept a Parsi as the head of the military. Probably No.

However, I don`t think the common Pakistani would care one way or the other. He/she just wants someone who can raise his/her living standards. (that is why he/she willingly migrates out of Pakistan, to non-Muslim countries regularly). But the politicians would have a field day. They would never allow a non-Muslim to come to the top of their political parties. And since he/she cannot come as the head of a major political party (PPP, PML, etc.), how could he/she become the Prime Minister.

As for Arab countries. It depends on their orientation. Secular Arab countries like Iraq, would (the Vice President of Iraq is a Christian). Others like Saudi Arabia and Iran, would not.

Hope that answers your question.

Atashband to Hobbyty

``...I seldom understand it (Hobbyt`s posts)...``

I, too, don`t understand 95% of Hobbyty`s posts. I know others (Shankar, Dost-Mittar) have expressed similar opinions in the past.

Tahmed321, krashid

Bilal Ahmed`s last known email address was through the ISP At Home (bahmed@home.com or bilal@home.com). None of these emails will work anymore because At Home has gone out of business.

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re. nasah #101

``It is exactly about Musharraf`s big deal about BA degree as a panacea for every ill...``

``Panacea for all evils``!!? This nicely sums up the total lack of comprehension exihibited by some interactors here on chowk. Or maybe it is just intentional obfuscation.

Either way, it is obvious to me that debate on this site isn`t really debate. Romair, hobbyty and whoever else finds themselves on this side of the line on this issue, maybe you`d want to stop wasting precious energies.

ferozk,

I agree with PM #114.

Your views about Pakistan`s future are about as unrealistically pessimisstic, as Romair`s are optimistic.

Correct me if I`m wrong..wasnt it you that predicted a year ago, that within a short time, the fundos in Pakistan are going to take over...maybe..even by now?! Well the reality is that the fundos are in retreat. They are desparate enough to collude with hindu fundos to initiate a Indo-Pak war..only then will they be able to take over in the subsequent wreckage..

re: PM # 114

``I have known and actually tutored two sons of waderas. One of them was inspired by his education and actually broke the mould. Can happen!``

You are being too humble. You are assigning far too much credit to the person`s education and far too little to his association with others like you and to his inner qualities.

Education by itself does not, can not, will not enlighten anyone. That is a function of WHAT is being taught, by WHOM, and of the kind of people a person is brought in contact with in the process of acquiring education. A person`s inner temperament absorbs these external influences and turns him or her into a unique being - a killer, a physician, or a killer physician.

I have known a few graduates and Ph.D. holders. Education, I have found, enhances competency but rarely transforms: it makes a good person better and an evil person far more dangerous for the health and welfare of his/her fellow human beings.

Should a nation throw its lot entirely into the hands of such people, depriving 98% of her population a chance to run for office?

hobbyt #100

Whether or not to grant the state`s landless tenant farmers ownership of the land they till in PUnjab is something for Pakistanis to decide based on what they think is the appropriate relationship between the state and its citizens.

My point was those tenant farmers doing thappa protests may not be Ph.Ds in political science, may even be illiterate but their activism aims to make a material difference in their own lives, which is finally the fundamental aim of governance.

In my view the tenant farmers have as much or more right to be empowered to vote and represent themselves than those who for whom governance by-and-large large materially affects only drawingroom debates.