What it means to be me in Corporate America?

Dear Humsab,

If indeed that is your view of Sadna, I most regretfully inform you that not only are you blindfolded, but I think you haven`t seen what she has written in the past...

Sadna`s `not-so-strong` words contain a vitriolic diatribe against Pakistan full of lies and abuse. Even on this board she is the one who started the barrage of abuse by calling Pakistan a `sick country`. When I responded by reminding her that by the standards she is applying, her country ie India is even sicker since it puts on a hypocritical facade, she claimed that I am `compulsively abusive` and unable to handle disagreement. She is neither very intelligent nor very well read... all she is well versed in is the Indian Government propaganda unleashed against Pakistan.. And please Rsaxena can hardly be an example for anyone. He is a typical obstructionist.

-YLH

Ylh # 254

Dear Yasser

I don`t have any option except to disagree with you in general. Sadna is not the kind of person who uses abusive language or even very strong words. You must also appreciate that if you want to put forward your point passionately without giving an inch to the rival then other interactors also have the same right. Sadna is an intelligent, well read person who GENERALLY interacts in a controlled manner but NEVER GIVE UP. Since, I am your opponents compatriot, so my view can be biased:) but on the whole, I don`t think Indians are particularly prone to throw themselves in any soup.

As for you, not only you but everybody around here on Chowk knows that you are an intelligent well read person but problem is correctly diagonised by another person of Indian origin that you tend to become a WILLING BAKRA. My sincere advice to you is,` learn to control your reactions as this will result in better articulation on your part.` But I know it is easier said then done because at your age, most of us will be reacting in a manner that you do. So, learn from another Indian RSaxena and enjoy this site because Saxena is very clear about Chowk and its impact on people`s life.

You don`t have to take each and every word to heart.

Have a good day!

Not only has Sadna failed to answer very specific and pertinent questions I raised to which she responded in her typical `i will not play because you are unfair` whining... but she has also failed to show me how I am `compulsively abusive` when she is the one who started with the `sick country` business, and how am I intolerant of disagreement, when I am having a perfectly fine and civilized disagreement with three other Indians ie Dost Mittar, Layman and Hum Sab....

Is this all she has to show? Other than accusations, strawman fallacies and lies coupled with perverse logic (like my support of the right of self determination according to the UN resolutions is some how analogous to Imran Khan`s alleged support for the Taliban or that I somehow support militancy in Kashmir) On the other hand we have people like Roohi who keep saying that Aisha has an imbalanced view and that Aisha propagates hate when Aisha speaks of being `tolerant of other peoples` beliefs` while people like Sadna who are utterly intolerant and bigoted in their approach to Pakistan and India matters are left alone to do as they please.

-YLH

dost mittar #251:

``As for Pakistan`s national language, I think Panjabis made an implicit pact with the Mohajirs to forego their language (just like the Hindu Panjabis in India) in lieu of political dominance in the new country.``

I too have heard that Hindu Punjabis used to mention Hindi as their language during census. But I dont understand what benefits it would give them - I am not sure it would have helped them win elections, as politics is a numbers game - if they had the numbers, they would win anyway. Regarding the Punjab-Haryana partition, would Hindu Punjabis have preferred to live in Haryana over Punjab?

ylh #

Just as a reminder.

Apart from illegal immigrants.

There is a bustling trade of Rajhastani women to Bahawalpur.

But that is a black spot on our face.

(Faces of people like Sadhna cannot be blackened further, for it a new idiom needs to be invented)

Dear Dost Mittar,

Just on that last post... you certainly have the right to view history your own way, but simply saying that the Jallianwallah massacre happened will not prove that the Congress made head way in Punjab...

Both League and the Congress could pull sizeable crowds even in the 1930s (and remember jallianwallah crowd was only a 1000 or so people who butchered by that remorseless man)... but Congress didn`t win any major victories in Punjab... nor did the League... Both of them were all India parties with an Independence agenda on their manifestoes ... so they were inimical to the interests of Unionists... the Cry of socialism nor that of Indo-Muslim Nationalism didn`t go down well with the Punjabi Landlord who was a loyalist through and through and was opposed to any mass movement... but it was the cry of Pakistan which permanently disrupted their constituency...

You speak of Jinnah making the pact with the feudal... I don`t think that is true... when Sikandar Hayat refused to take the party line, he was thrown out of the League... even Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz was made an example of... it might be true that Muslims, especially the Punjabis, till then and even now are essentially a feudal society... but like I said before Jinnah informed very well the all the Maulanas, Sirdars, and the Feudals who the daddy was... it was his death which brought about the feudals back where they didn`t belong ....

-YLH

Hum Sab,

``Good post. Now, give yourself a pat on your back from my side. Are you preparing to fight election this time or next time?Best of luck. Do well in life and make your parents and your country proud of you.``

I thankyou for your wishes and compliments... I am only 22 so i don`t know about contesting elections right now though... but I do plan to one day.

Perhaps you can also explain the first part to Ms Sadna as well, who loves calling other countries `sick` but when some responds she claims that I am `compulsively abusive` and `can`t handle disagreement`... Ladies and gentlemen is there no sense of fairness left? If Sadna or anyone will curse at Pakistan I will respond in full force... then don`t scream `compulsive abusive` nonsense. Really this is what you get for being civilized with scum like Sadna. Don`t I have the right to respond in kind when some pathetic Pakistan-obsessed loser like Sadna calls Pakistan a `Sick country` ??? Simply because she can`t argue on logic??

Dost Mittar,

That also a point of view and there are many things you hold are true... however history has a rich blend... and it gets richer with diverse points of view...

Thanks for that excellent post.

-YLH

INDIAN IRONY...

Isay Kehtay hain, chori aur phir seena Zori... I was having a civilized discussion when Ms.Sadna started with her garbage about `Sick` country.. and now she is accusing me of being `Compulsively Abusive`. If you can`t handle being called a `Pakistan-Obsessed loser` than cease and desist with derogatory comments like `Sick` country or else don`t whine about Compulsive abuse...

Indian Theory: When you can`t talk logically, start lying. Well done Sadna.

ylh #248
You are compulsively abusive and cannot handle disagreement. You have the freedom of the thread.

YLH 243 and Sadna 245

Mr YLH if you read your history well , you will realise areas such as Tharparkar in Sind were Hindu majority areas before partition and just after. What happened in the aftermath was that the Sodha Rajputs as well as the Menghwars were increasingly discriminated and many have migrated to Rajasthan, Haryana and Delhi.

Anyways that part as much any other border area has people who speak the same language across the border.People tend to live where their forefathers have lived unless they are forced out via economic, social methods.

There were reports in Indian mags about Sodhas being forced into Islam and hence choosing their way to India , where by the way they are not yet Indian citizens .

It will indeed be difficult for an average person to suffer the pomposity of the Mastoi or Marwat or any other feudal buffoon in the ``local America``.

YLH # 231

Good post. Now, give yourself a pat on your back from my side. Are you preparing to fight election this time or next time?

Best of luck. Do well in life and make your parents and your country proud of you.

(I am not sure if this went through last time, please post it up thankyou)

Sadna and her aliases,

¡§Who is Emma Duncan? Another Joe Smush South Asia expert I guess.¡¨

Yes ¡K anyone who says anything remotely nice about Pakistan is a Joe Smush¡K while anyone who recognizes Pakistan for the evil it is, is a Gospel of truth¡K that¡¦s Indian objectivity for you!

¡§I am not an illegal immigrant in your sick country¡¨

Ah back to name calling are we now? And I am glad¡K we don¡¦t want hate mongers like you anyway.. ƒº ¡K by the way have you considered what is a really and truly sick country? A country in which thousands of innocents are burnt alive for their faith¡K a country which elects a Hindu fundamentalist party to government, a country which makes nuclear weapons and ICBMs while hundreds of millions of its citizens live in deplorable conditions, a country which starts a nuclear arms race to the detriment of 1.5 billion people of South Asia¡K ? Which occupies a foreign land and denies the people their basic human right .. the right to determine their own collective destiny¡K that my dear is the truly sick country. So lets not go into the question of sickness¡K ok?

And all those Indians who will now emerge to condemn me¡K Please recognize that I am not the one who used the word ¡¥sick¡¦ first. Obviously I don¡¦t expect any sense of objectivity from any of you.

¡§Get your friends to publish one authoritative report on Indian immigrants in Pakistan, because all this crapping on your part is totally unconvincing.¡¨

Dear Sadna ¡K It is a fact¡K and your accepting not accepting won¡¦t change it. Please take it out of your head that we need to convince some life-less Pakistan-obsessed loser sitting in Southern New Jersey on her computer 24/7 dishing out BJP garbage. We just don¡¦t have time to waste on you.

¡§why they were so stupid as to leave the `local America`.¡¨

Again: I didn¡¦t call Pakistan the Local America nor do I consider it one¡K Emma Duncan did. Take this issue up with her and not me. However what might be local America for the poor and destitute people of India might not be so for the people of Pakistan ¡K have you considered that everyone seeks a better lifestyle than he/she has? Why did you leave that heaven on earth for America¡¦s armpit New Jersey?

¡§And if Pakistan continues to foment violence in Kashmir or elsewhere in India, India is sure to retaliate with RAW-inspired violence in Pakistan to show Pakistani leaders that the same sponsored-violence card can be played the other way too.¡¨

That is a matter of opinion isn¡¦t it¡K Historically speaking India set out as early as 1947 to destabilize Pakistan ¡K by all means financially, morally, socially and through violent means¡K your deputy Prime Minister was one of the plotters in the attempted Murder of the first Governor General of Pakistan¡K India actively supplied dissidents in Bengal, and then in Baluchistan with weapons when both of these places weren¡¦t even disputed.. and India was behind ethnic and sectarian violence all over Pakistan even before it started pointing fingers at Pakistan for Kashmir.. Secondly Kashmir is disputed by all parties and there are UN resolutions on it. Are there any UN resolutions on Say Karachi? Besides only a fool motivated by ultra-nationalistic BS put out by the Indian media would suggest that all violence in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored and none of it is indigenous¡K even though none of the Kashmiris want anything to do with you?

Its amazing how the Pakistani leadership speaking of peace and dialogue is ¡¥Sir Phira¡¦ while the war mongering Indian leadership is giving ¡¥peace a chance¡¦. How delusional can one be? Reminds me of that fascinatingly true article by Farzana Versey¡K ¡¥Gandhi¡¦s Progeny¡¦. It is amazing that now the will of the Kashmiri people is to be ascertained through ¡¥Mori.com¡¦ wonderful¡K Your logic never ceases to amaze me. Also it is amazing that the ¡¥Indian Embassy¡¦ website is being quoted as the objective source on the Azad Kashmir Government ¡K which is an elected government of the people, no matter how you would like to twist the facts¡K

As for your own selective interpretation of the UN Security council resolutions¡K allow me to inform you that your argument is childish to say the least. The Resolutions have a few fundamental premises: 1) Kashmir is a disputed territory 2) Plebiscite to ascertain whether the Kashmiris will go to Pakistan or India will happen. India doesn¡¦t accept Premise 1¡K hence there is no point of Pakistan allowing AJK to be brought under Indian occupation.

¡§You seem blissfully unaware that the present head of government in PoK is a Musharraf appointee from the Army (according to Pakistani newspapers) and the powers of govt in any case are held by a bureacrat in Islamabad.¡¨

You have a very fertile imagination. I know of Bangladeshi newspapers who say Sheikh Hasina Wajid was a stooge of Indian government¡K does that make it true?

This following statement made my day¡K it shows me that you are mentally unbalanced and completely incapable of making a worthwhile argument¡K

¡§Your statements also remind me of Pakistanis who kept saying pre Sept 11 that Afghans `deserve` a government like the Taliban, in order to justify Pakistan sending jihadis and helping Taliban militarily until US forced Pakistan to pull out in Oct 2001. Afghans have died through Pakistani hands due to these `insights`. Doesn`t Imran Khan still say that Afghans will yet welcome the Taliban back? Kashmiris are similarly dying through Pakistani jihadi hands.¡¨

1)How is my asking for the right of self determination for the kashmiri people in anyway similar to the statement that afghans deserve a government like taliban? This shows how far Indian bigots are willing to go to misuse and abuse the legitimate war on terrorism for their own petty and stupid little ends¡K have you no shame at all?

2) Are you assuming that I am pro-Militancy in Kashmir? Then you are wrong¡K I believe in a constitutional struggle for independence personally where the Hurriyet Conference should contest the elections, win them, and then not take oath on the Indian constitution and declare their independence as the elected representatives of Kashmir. Ofcourse to do this, the elections will have to be monitored by International observers which India is opposed to precisely because it plans to rig those elections¡K since the Kashmiri people have decided to boycott the elections I respect their decision.

3) How is Imran Khan related to all of this?

4) Are you assuming that a) all militants in Kashmir are Pakistanis? b) No Kashmiris have been murdered in cold blood by the great and humanistic army of India?

If the answer to 4(a) and 4(b) is yes¡K then one can safely assume that you are no impartial and objective observer¡K but rather someone who is taking a blatantly ultra-nationalistic BJP/Advani line¡K hence you are an in the closet BJP supporter. Furthermore you don¡¦t even have a kernel of objectivity ¡K ofcourse (and this one is for Roohi) I have been more than critical of the Jehadi tanzeems who have hijacked the legitimate struggle of the Kashmir people for independence¡K which proves that atleast I, an evil Pakistani, am ready to talk peace on realistic terms admitting the horrible mistakes made by my own side, while not surrendering the legitimate issue of Kashmir¡K People like you Sadna are the curse that has come to haunt Pakistan and India¡K I hate Sallahuddin the Kashmiri leader as much as I hate people like you¡K because you are the exact Indian equivalent of Sallahudin in my opinion¡K and debating with you is as fruitless as debating with the local mullah¡K

-YLH

PS: You still haven¡¦t shown me where Emma Duncan says that she has a soft corner for Pakistan as you alleged?

And on the issue of the ¡¥White skin¡¦¡K none of it was an insult¡K but the way you sanctimoniously try to change the topic is amazing¡K the fact my dear is that you can¡¦t answer logically¡K

Sadna and her aliases,

¡§Who is Emma Duncan? Another Joe Smush South Asia expert I guess.¡¨

Yes ¡K anyone who says anything remotely nice about Pakistan is a Joe Smush¡K while anyone who recognizes Pakistan for the evil it is, is a Gospel of truth¡K that¡¦s Indian objectivity for you!

¡§I am not an illegal immigrant in your sick country¡¨

Ah back to name calling are we now? And I am glad¡K we don¡¦t want hate mongers like you anyway.. ƒº ¡K by the way have you considered what is a really and truly sick country? A country in which thousands of innocents are burnt alive for their faith¡K a country which elects a Hindu fundamentalist party to government, a country which makes nuclear weapons and ICBMs while hundreds of millions of its citizens live in deplorable conditions, a country which starts a nuclear arms race to the detriment of 1.5 billion people of South Asia¡K ? Which occupies a foreign land and denies the people their basic human right .. the right to determine their own collective destiny¡K that my dear is the truly sick country. So lets not go into the question of sickness¡K ok?

And all those Indians who will now emerge to condemn me¡K Please recognize that I am not the one who used the word ¡¥sick¡¦ first. Obviously I don¡¦t expect any sense of objectivity from any of you.

¡§Get your friends to publish one authoritative report on Indian immigrants in Pakistan, because all this crapping on your part is totally unconvincing.¡¨

Dear Sadna ¡K It is a fact¡K and your accepting not accepting won¡¦t change it. Please take it out of your head that we need to convince some life-less Pakistan-obsessed loser sitting in Southern New Jersey on her computer 24/7 dishing out BJP garbage. We just don¡¦t have time to waste on you.

¡§why they were so stupid as to leave the `local America`.¡¨

Again: I didn¡¦t call Pakistan the Local America nor do I consider it one¡K Emma Duncan did. Take this issue up with her and not me. However what might be local America for the poor and destitute people of India might not be so for the people of Pakistan ¡K have you considered that everyone seeks a better lifestyle than he/she has? Why did you leave that heaven on earth for America¡¦s armpit New Jersey?

¡§And if Pakistan continues to foment violence in Kashmir or elsewhere in India, India is sure to retaliate with RAW-inspired violence in Pakistan to show Pakistani leaders that the same sponsored-violence card can be played the other way too.¡¨

That is a matter of opinion isn¡¦t it¡K Historically speaking India set out as early as 1947 to destabilize Pakistan ¡K by all means financially, morally, socially and through violent means¡K your deputy Prime Minister was one of the plotters in the attempted Murder of the first Governor General of Pakistan¡K India actively supplied dissidents in Bengal, and then in Baluchistan with weapons when both of these places weren¡¦t even disputed.. and India was behind ethnic and sectarian violence all over Pakistan even before it started pointing fingers at Pakistan for Kashmir.. Secondly Kashmir is disputed by all parties and there are UN resolutions on it. Are there any UN resolutions on Say Karachi? Besides only a fool motivated by ultra-nationalistic BS put out by the Indian media would suggest that all violence in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored and none of it is indigenous¡K even though none of the Kashmiris want anything to do with you?

Its amazing how the Pakistani leadership speaking of peace and dialogue is ¡¥Sir Phira¡¦ while the war mongering Indian leadership is giving ¡¥peace a chance¡¦. How delusional can one be? Reminds me of that fascinatingly true article by Farzana Versey¡K ¡¥Gandhi¡¦s Progeny¡¦. It is amazing that now the will of the Kashmiri people is to be ascertained through ¡¥Mori.com¡¦ wonderful¡K Your logic never ceases to amaze me. Also it is amazing that the ¡¥Indian Embassy¡¦ website is being quoted as the objective source on the Azad Kashmir Government ¡K which is an elected government of the people, no matter how you would like to twist the facts¡K

As for your own selective interpretation of the UN Security council resolutions¡K allow me to inform you that your argument is childish to say the least. The Resolutions have a few fundamental premises: 1) Kashmir is a disputed territory 2) Plebiscite to ascertain whether the Kashmiris will go to Pakistan or India will happen. India doesn¡¦t accept Premise 1¡K hence there is no point of Pakistan allowing AJK to be brought under Indian occupation.

¡§You seem blissfully unaware that the present head of government in PoK is a Musharraf appointee from the Army (according to Pakistani newspapers) and the powers of govt in any case are held by a bureacrat in Islamabad.¡¨

You have a very fertile imagination. I know of Bangladeshi newspapers who say Sheikh Hasina Wajid was a stooge of Indian government¡K does that make it true?

This following statement made my day¡K it shows me that you are mentally unbalanced and completely incapable of making a worthwhile argument¡K

¡§Your statements also remind me of Pakistanis who kept saying pre Sept 11 that Afghans `deserve` a government like the Taliban, in order to justify Pakistan sending jihadis and helping Taliban militarily until US forced Pakistan to pull out in Oct 2001. Afghans have died through Pakistani hands due to these `insights`. Doesn`t Imran Khan still say that Afghans will yet welcome the Taliban back? Kashmiris are similarly dying through Pakistani jihadi hands.¡¨

1)How is my asking for the right of self determination for the kashmiri people in anyway similar to the statement that afghans deserve a government like taliban? This shows how far Indian bigots are willing to go to misuse and abuse the legitimate war on terrorism for their own petty and stupid little ends¡K have you no shame at all?

2) Are you assuming that I am pro-Militancy in Kashmir? Then you are wrong¡K I believe in a constitutional struggle for independence personally where the Hurriyet Conference should contest the elections, win them, and then not take oath on the Indian constitution and declare their independence as the elected representatives of Kashmir. Ofcourse to do this, the elections will have to be monitored by International observers which India is opposed to precisely because it plans to rig those elections¡K since the Kashmiri people have decided to boycott the elections I respect their decision.

3) How is Imran Khan related to all of this?

4) Are you assuming that a) all militants in Kashmir are Pakistanis? b) No Kashmiris have been murdered in cold blood by the great and humanistic army of India?

If the answer to 4(a) and 4(b) is yes¡K then one can safely assume that you are no impartial and objective observer¡K but rather someone who is taking a blatantly ultra-nationalistic BJP/Advani line¡K hence you are an in the closet BJP supporter. Furthermore you don¡¦t even have a kernel of objectivity ¡K ofcourse (and this one is for Roohi) I have been more than critical of the Jehadi tanzeems who have hijacked the legitimate struggle of the Kashmir people for independence¡K which proves that atleast I, an evil Pakistani, am ready to talk peace on realistic terms admitting the horrible mistakes made by my own side, while not surrendering the legitimate issue of Kashmir¡K People like you Sadna are the curse that has come to haunt Pakistan and India¡K I hate Sallahuddin the Kashmiri leader as much as I hate people like you¡K because you are the exact Indian equivalent of Sallahudin in my opinion¡K and debating with you is as fruitless as debating with the local mullah¡K

-YLH

PS: You still haven¡¦t shown me where Emma Duncan says that she has a soft corner for Pakistan as you alleged?And on the issue of the ¡¥White skin¡¦¡K none of it was an insult¡K but the way you sanctimoniously try to change the topic (and attribute utter nonsense to me) is amazing¡K the fact my dear is that you can¡¦t answer logically¡K so you decide to make up lies about me.

ylh #243

Nation and religion are two different things.

As a nation state of Pakistan, constitution should not differentiate between on the basis of race, religion, color or creed.

In current history, there are two sects who have been rejected as Muslims, by the unanimous consensus of Muslims.

Bahai in Iran and Qadianis in Pakistan.

The reason is not why they believe in God and prophet.

The reason is they believe in new prophets after Mohammed PBUH.

As I said accepting this notion that there is a prophet. Simply means, you have to accept each and every word of Mirza as true. Because if he is a prophet, you cannot argue that his words are divine or not. They are divine.

So if you accept Qadiani as Muslims, tou have to believe that Mirza`s words were the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

So basically what we are denying is that Mirza Ahmed was a prophet of God.

So problem is this. Whatever good teachings he has preached, or otherwise. It is useless. Because the basic teaching on which Qadiani religion revolves is the Prophethood of Mirza.

Otherwise which sane person will believe that jesus migrated to Kashmir or Adam was created by God 6000 years back.

I try to take stand on the matter of principle.

As a citizen of Pakistan, they needs to enjoy every right which other citizens have.

As far as the core beliefs are concerned, they are not Muslims. Whatever they call themselves.

ylh #243
``but then don’t spit on our face. Jis thali mein khaten hain us mein ched nahin karte.``

I am not an illegal immigrant in your sick country and you will get as much spit in your face as you ask for. Get your friends to publish one authoritative report on Indian immigrants in Pakistan, because all this crapping on your part is totally unconvincing.

And ask the Pakistani immigrants who are periodically arrested of the shores of Europe or who suffocate to death in holds of ships(along with Indians) why they were so stupid as to leave the `local America`.

Re BJP, I am not a closet BJP supporter. Advani`s attitude may be suitable to deal with the sir-phira establishment of Pakistan, but to me its unacceptable for him to base domestic politics too on a similar attitude toward his fellow Indians.

Re RAW, I didnot `deny` anything. I asked which recent events are you ascribing to RAW ? Musharraf blamed even the Daniel Pearl murder on India.

And if Pakistan continues to foment violence in Kashmir or elsewhere in India, India is sure to retaliate with RAW-inspired violence in Pakistan to show Pakistani leaders that the same sponsored-violence card can be played the other way too. I am sure they are holding off only because they think its better to give peace a chance at this time.

Regarding the `independent autonomous government` in PoK, those standing for election had to sign an undertaking that they agree to Kashmir`s accession to Pakistan.
Also:
``in the clause 4 of their Constitution`` there is this stipulation:
``No person or political party shall be permitted to propagate against or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to the ideology of the State`s accession to Pakistan``. Freedom of speech may be restricted in the interest of ``friendly relations with Pakistan``.``

Also check out:
http://www.indianembassy.org/policy/Kashmir/Kashmir_MEA/POK.html

``..Power however still rested with the officials of Pakistan, and the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad with regard to all legislation and appointments, questions of general policy, budget, internal security, matters involving heavy financial commitment, public debts and loans, taxes and important matters relating to civil supplies..``

You seem blissfully unaware that the present head of government in PoK is a Musharraf appointee from the Army (according to Pakistani newspapers) and the powers of govt in any case are held by a bureacrat in Islamabad.

Re your statements on Kashmiris sentiments and `situation on the ground`, here are some alternate views for whatever they are worth:

http://www.mori.com/polls/2002/kashmir.shtml

One Kashmiri leader sitting in Islamabad called Salaahuddin says Kashmir is the first goal of jihad for Islamic rule and the conquest of India will follow. Pakistanis exercise great selection of which `will of Kashmiris` they will support for example, Pakistanis donot want Kashmiris to vote for their state government.

Your statements also remind me of Pakistanis who kept saying pre Sept 11 that Afghans `deserve` a government like the Taliban, in order to justify Pakistan sending jihadis and helping Taliban militarily until US forced Pakistan to pull out in Oct 2001. Afghans have died through Pakistani hands due to these `insights`. Doesn`t Imran Khan still say that Afghans will yet welcome the Taliban back? Kashmiris are similarly dying through Pakistani jihadi hands.

Regarding the ISI role in Kashmir, you need to understand denials no longer work. Post Sept 11 the ISI role in Kashmir is all over the world`s newspapers with foreign peacemaking emissaries debating even the finer points like whether Musharraf undertook to close the training camps or not. And since deniability is gone, as long as Pakistan continues to remain involved in violence in Kashmir, it is going to be blamed for the situation there. Not very clever, IMO.

Re plebiscite
You keep saying `will of the people` but don`t speak of changed demographics and Akshai Chin? Selective purism is no purism.

Which troops? Pakistani troops, even the UN reported Pakistani troops.
Secondly the UN resolutions called for Pakistani troop pullout UNCONDITIONALLY ie regardless of Pakistani apprehensions about India`s intentions. If Pakistan was asking for any `guarantees` as additional conditionalities for it to uphold the UN resolutions, that was a matter to be taken up between Pakistan and the UN.

Moreover if Pakistan itself chose not to uphold the UN resolutions because its own conditionalities were not met, on what basis does Pakistan complain about India doing the same? Look into your own gireban first.

``are not ready to grant Kashmiris their democratic right of self determination of their destiny and future, the right that the British granted our own founding fathers, the right to liberty and freedom``

To begin with, Kashmiris will be lucky if India and Pakistan allow them the right to life and mere existence in the future. They will luckier still if they get to exercise the right to liberty and freedoms granted by the Indian Constitution to begin with.
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/insight981100d.html

krashid, tahmed, dostmittar,

Krashid and I might not agree on the Ahmadi issue, but I am sure Krashid also doesn’t believe that the Pakistani constitution has any right to define who is not a Muslim. I agree with tahmed on the Ahmadi issue, but I believe the definition of the Muslim given by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is even simpler than the one tahmed is giving… which is the kalima.. ‘there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet’ which is also the Kalima of the Ahmadis… hence the Ahmadis are as good of Muslims as anyone. With regards to Dost Mittar, the great financial and political clout that Agha Khan enjoys in Pakistan seems to have more weight than the threats of Mullahs for those rulers of Pakistan who are moved by necessity of maintaining personal kursi at all costs. Besides I find Ismailis to be the best kind of Muslims. As for the Druze, they are doing very well in the multicultural Lebanon… won’t you say?

Dear Layman,

About the freedom struggle… In Punjab and Sindh and to some extent in Bengal, the struggle for Pakistan was also the struggle for freedom from the British. Here is the reason why. Punjab and Sindh atleast were ruled by the Unionist Party under the Sikandar and Khizer Hayat Tiwana. The Unionist Party was anti-all India parties, like the Congress and the League… whereas both League and Congress stood for the complete Independence of the Indian subcontinent in the 1930s and 1940s, the curious alliance between Muslim Landlords and Hindu industrialists that the Unionist Party was, it was loyalist. In Punjab both Congress and League couldn’t succeed for a very long time given the feudal structure which perpetuated the Unionist Rule. Many Historians have argued that the League took up the Pakistan demand to mobilize the masses behind it to wrest control from the Unionist Party which it did successfully in the 1940s. So when the Muslim League Workers were arrested en masse in 1946 and 1947 they were arrested by the British government for protesting against the British Backed Tiwana Ministry. As early as 1940, all land holders in Punjab who switched to the League from the Unionist Party lost their lands… this included my own great grandfather… who was till then an ‘honorary magistrate’ in his area. So the answer is that the struggle of Pakistan in Punjab and Sindh was greatly intertwined with the struggle for freedom in these areas as unlike the rest of the India where Congress came to represent the freedom movement, in these areas it was the League which represented the anti-British feeling. The sad part of course is that when Pakistan was created the Unionists joined the League in large numbers making the Punjab Muslim League a natural successor of the much hated Unionist Party. Whereas Khizer Hayat was the stalwart of the Unionist Party, his political successor Khuda Baksh Tiwana contests election from Bulwal on a Muslim League ticket. Here Jinnah and his followers failed.



You raise a very interesting point about Arabic’s case as the national language of Pakistan. The Bengalis asked for the same thing… I think it was FazlulHaq who said Arabic would be acceptable as a National language to all Bengalis, but to me it really doesn’t make sense. You see, even the classical Two Nation Theory spoke of South Asian Muslims as a nation distinct even from Arab Muslims as from South Asian Hindus. Dr.Iqbal, in his famous address that gave the idea of Pakistan at Allahabad in 1930, mentioned the ‘protection of South Asian Islam from Arab Imperialism’. Similarly Jinnah, being a Khoja Shiite gujurati by birth, wasn’t a big fan of the Arabs or the Arab straitjacket Islam. Many of the customs, as Jinnah pointed out to a Hindu friend, in his Islam were of Hindu origin which made it more colorful. The case for Arabic as the national language of Pakistan was perhaps only as strong as the case for English… since the former meant the continuation of Arab Imperialism, the latter meant the continuation of British Imperialism. Despite Jinnah’s repeated warnings against Pakistan being a theocracy, over time the mullahs still managed to sneak in the Federal Shariat court, the Blasphemy law, the Hudood ordinance (through Zia)… Can you imagine what they would have done to us, if Arabic was to become the National Language of Pakistan.

Urdu in my opinion was the only option… and it was accepted by the Non-Urdu speaking millions of West Pakistan… so the Bengalis were in my opinion wrong in not accepting Urdu as the national language though all their other grievances were justified… besides Bengali was given the Provincial Language status early on, and then Equal National Language status in the 1950s.

-YLH

dost-mittar

“YLH#231

You are one of the best posters on Chowk when you can keep your emotions under control.

Keep it up!”

Thankyou for the compliment. More often than not though, our friends from your side don’t give me a chance to keep my emotions under control.

Sadna,

By the way can you show me where Emma Duncan says she has a soft spot for Pakistan?

As far as the illegal immigrants are concerned… I am sorry I really can’t distinguish between a North Indian, or a South Indian, or a Marathi, or a Gujurati. They all look the same to me. I was informed that a lot of Rajistanis are living in Pakistan… does that help? I mean is it really that hard to believe that out of a 1 billion Indians many of whom are desperately poor, some would wanna take advantage of the ‘Local America’? As a Human Being I welcome them, but then don’t spit on our face. Jis thali mein khaten hain us mein ched nahin karte.

Your denial of RAW’s terrorist activities in Karachi is almost as realistic as my denial of ISI’s involvement in Kashmir. For the record I don’t think either RAW or ISI were involved in the recent attacks in Karachi, Kashmir or Dehli… those attacks are a part of a well planned conspiracy to take two nuclear powers, friendly to the US, to war. But RAW and ISI have been actively involved in the destabilization of Pakistan and India in the past.

As for the withdrawal of Pakistani troops… I think you are again avoiding the question. First of all the question might be of ‘which troops’? Secondly the Azad Kashmir government is a democratically elected autonomous government in an ‘ilhaq’ with Pakistan. Thirdly Pakistan would have withdrawn if guaranteed that India was ever serious about holding a plebiscite.Your statement: “So the resolutions are not enforceable either in letter or in spirit or practically, unless Pakistan militarily takes over J&K. Good luck to its continued endeavor to do so and sink itself”…. Shows that you are inherently incapable of looking beyond the narrow national interest that you have imagined. Let me inform you of a little fact. Kashmiris don’t want to be with India… that is pretty clear and accepted. They hate you. They hate your occupation. This is without Pakistan in the equation. Whatever excuses you might come up with these are the facts on the ground and you can’t suppress the will of the people for very long. You are no moderate, you are an in the closet BJP supporter. That’s what you are.

And now I read your Answer CLEARLY like the day : ‘India doesn’t hold a plebiscite in Kashmir because Kashmiris won’t choose India, and we in India, despite our sanctimonious garbage about being the largest democracy in the World, are not ready to grant Kashmiris their democratic right of self determination of their destiny and future, the right that the British granted our own founding fathers, the right to liberty and freedom. Because essentially we are of a Nazi mindset unable to compromise or realize that writs are established not by suppression but by the acceptance of the will of the people’.

And please don’t make another scapegoat out of Pakistan… really this is really boring… ‘If India is bad, Pakistan is worst’ is not the kind of logic you wanna put across to defend India. Pakistan might be more horrible, nay lets say Pakistan IS more horrible, but then Pakistan hasn’t made any sanctimonious claims to be the largest democracy in the world either. We are a lot of things, but we are not hypocrites, and the Military-ruled-Islamic-Republic-of-Pakistan is what it is for the world to see, unlike the claimants of Secular Democracy in our region.

-YLH

Layman 228

If I give you example from history you may appreciate better.

In early days of Islam, the Quraish were very oppressive on Muslims.

So Muslims decided to migrate to a place called Habsha (Ethiopia) which was across red sea from Arab. The king of Habsha was Christian who believed in jesus as son of God.

When Muslims reached Habsha, Quraish send their emissary to king to tell that these Muslims donot belief Jesus as son of God.

The king called the Muslims. The representative of Muslim read the Ayah from Surah Maryam (Mary). Which basically said that Jesus was born without father with the word of God. He was not son of God, but prophet of God. etc.

Historical account suggest that the king took a small piece of wood in his hand and said that Jesus was neither more, nor less than this. Anyway king returned the Quraish unsuccessful and allowed Muslims to live in Habsha.

TAhmed 321#

The point is not piousness or acting politely.

Can a non-Muslim be pious and polite.

Can any teaching other than Islam produce remarkable people and followers. History is full of such examples.

The reincarnation of jews after Maimonides and their struggle to survive is a very remarkable example. Does this means they can be considered Muslim, if with all their BELIEFS and thoughts they start calling themselves Muslims.

You are confusing two issues.

One is a matter of minimum criteria of Muslim belief.

And another is action.

I know of many Muslims and non-Muslims whose behaviour is exemplary.

Qadianis do not fit the criteria of Muslim. It is a different discussion that they are good or bad. My teacher, in my early years (upto class 8th) was Qadiani. I not only respect him like father, but I respect him much more for creating a love for literature. (otherwise I don`t see any literary figures in my whole clan to influence me). He was an excellent man. I can do anything for him. On the matter of belief (which we never discussed), I don`t think I would consider him a Muslim. But that does not in any way decrease his respect or his place in my eyes.

It is not the teachings, but proclamation of prophethood and its acceptance which is the point.

Dostmittar #232

This is a matter of Imam.

Imam according to Shia sect (including Ismaeli) is a continuation of religion after prophet. And they are given high respect.

But you can argue on all matters, because their teaching ideally should not be in contradiction with basic teachings of Islam.

With Qadiani, the problem is different. Mirza claimed himself as prophet. You cannot argue because prophet`s words are divine.

There is no acceptance for any new prophet in Islam, even from the time of prophet.

Although Imams have been accepted from the beginning.

Ref Mullah321 #: 162

[harimau #154 In debating with sattar2, I question the Ahmedi rejection of what I consider to be the clear and simple point made in the Quran that Muhammed is the final prophet. This is my right and responsibility as a muslim, just as it is sattar2 right and responsibility as a muslim understand the message of the Quran with a clear mind.]

So you have a RIGHT and a RESPONSIBILITY to correct those with whom you disagree on matters of religion. So, why stop with Muslims? How about correcting Hindus, like the Sultans of Delhi used to do? What, most countries frown on murder? Too bad you weren`t born 300 years ago or as recently as 100 years back in Afghanistan.

[Unlike mullahs in Pakistan, and contrary to your assertions, I am not calling him a nonmuslim. I challenge you to cut and paste anything I have written, to support your assertion. And I am sure you will fail to take up this challenge...]

Did I say you said Ahmadiyyas are non-Muslims? I asked the question: do you think Ahmadiyyas are Muslims?

Here is the original post:

{Reply #: 154 harimau

Ref Mullah321 #: 117

[As before, I challenge you to find one - just one - of my hundreds of post on chowk to back your words. Indeed, I have on numerous occassions called for respect for all faiths.]

Oh, yeah? How about your debates with Mr. Sattar on Ahmadiyya beliefs?

Are Ahmadiyyas Muslims? Are thay to be treated as human beings?

Mr. Sattar would like to know.}

Is is just that you dance sufficiently close to declaring anything other than YOUR beliefs to be incorrect.

[...just as you failed to respond to my previous challenge to cut and paste anything I ever wrote to substantiate your assertion that I consider Islam to be superior to Hinduism.]

Again, it is a question of attitude, platitudes notwithstanding.

ylh #231
Lets see now.

I asked what language do those purported Indian immigrants speak? Simple question which a person giving authoritative information like you claim to be should have no trouble finding an answer. Are you infact saying through all that garble that the illegal immigrants speak Hindi or come from the Hindi-speaking regions of India?


Re Emma Duncan`s white skin.

Instead of giving objective reasons for someone to take you at your word, you prefer to abuse and discredit everyone who disagrees with you, even brining skin color into it whether a author of a book or a poster on chowk.


Reagans period was the 80s, the period after which Emma Duncan wrote.

Re Gandhian nonviolence. Whatever happened to Gandhi’s ‘Non-violent’ Army? Are you suggesting that the Chinese or the Pakistanis or the Americans are somehow worse than the Nazis … that Ahimsa and Satyagraha according to Gandhi should have worked with the Nazis but not with the Chinese, the Pakistanis and the Americans?

ylh, Indians are not blind followers. Gandhi was perhaps mistaken in thinking nonviolence would have worked with Nazis. Nonviolence willnot work with every situation which India has faced and is currently facing with the Chinese, Pakistanis and the Americans.

But the Gandhian principle of gaining the moral upperhand by refraining from violence and `wrongful action`, well, this proved effective to some extent by refraining from outright war in the Kargil conflict and in the recent military standoff. Without going to war, India has been able to put pressure on the use of jihadis.


``Have you considered why a self proclaimed Hinduvtist like Advani would want a confederation with Pakistan which he so blatantly hates, except that it is his desire to see Bharat Mata one again?``

Has it occured to you that Muslim/Pakistani haters like you accuse Advani of being, has no reason to want Pakistani Muslims to be part of his country? In my view, Advani has strong opinions on how to deal with Pakistanis, ie he thinks it only invites more trouble to deal with Pakistan based on dewy-eyed blurred vision of romanticism or thinking `large hearted` altruistic concessions. He wants a `pai-pai ka` hisaab and he is pragmatic enough to understand that unending enmity with a neighbouring country is not good for India`s progress.

If Pakistanis are so pragmatic and clever as you seen to imply, they wouldn`t be having the stupid hysterics and wailing bad Hindoo bad Hindoo like they do, every time Advani makes only a statement.

And as I asked before, what RAW activities in the recent times are you talking about?

Let us resolve Kashmir by all means, but donot expect to use the violence of jihadis and dead Kashmiris as currency.

Ref Umer Murtaza #: 161

[But as for the Buddhist killings, I was simply saying what the western textbooks have written. Feel free to correct me by posting a few links but I assume it`s your links/literature against what I`ve read. (I assume you`re not that old, so that you`ve actually witnessed the events).]

While it is entirely possible that isolated rajas killed off Buddhist monks for ``spreading a false religion``, the fact is that North Indians consider Buddha to be one of the 10 incarnations on earth of the Hindu god Vishnu. With the death of Ashoka who spread Buddhism throughout India, and sent monks to Sri Lanka, China, etc., Hindu kings ascended to power and supported Hinduism as the state religion, leading to the gradual decline of Buddhism. Jainism also witnessed the same trend in India.

[And what`s with the Dravidian bit? That was a sarcastic pun. BTW, I also took that from the text books. Dravidians were dark skinned folk just as you are a b-i-t-c-h.]

So, YOU have a right to be sarcastic but I don`t have the right to be sarcastic by posting about Barbie`s conversion in response to multiple posts in the past from various people about Emma Goldstein or Cat Stevens converting to Islam.

Dravidians are dark-skinned? So, what is wrong with being dark-skinned? Is that the mark of Satan?

Have you met folks from Kerala, Andhra or Karnataka? How about the film star Aishwarya Rai with light brown skin and green eyes?

By the way, all the Italians I met last month thought I was Spanish but then, Sudalaikkannu will tell you that I am an Aryan immigrant to Tamil Nadu.

You are just racist scum even more than I am a b-i-t-c-h.

Ref Umer Murtaza #: 160

[I demonstrated that despite what I could have wrote, I chose not to. It`s called self-control.]

An excellent example of your self-control follows immediately:

[B!tch!]

`Nuff said.

ylh #various
Its not that I think you are lying about the immigrants, its that I have never seen a single mention of such immigrants elsewhere. Which region of India are those immigrants from is what I wanted to know.

Which recent attack in Karachi are you attributing to RAW?

Re plebiscite, the UN prescription was that first Pakistan had to withdraw its troops from PoK and vacate the territory it had occupied. I donot see any evidence that Pakistanis are campaigning for withdrawal from PoK. Not only has Pakistan not withdrawn, it has drastically changed the demographics of PoK as well as gifted away territory to China. Apart from which a lot has happened since 1949 which has changed India`s mind. So the resolutions are not enforceable either in letter or in spirit or practically, unless Pakistan militarily takes over J&K. Good luck to its continued endeavor to do so and sink itself.

krashid #220 I think the most sensible way to ``decide`` (if indeed it is for us humans to decide) if a person is a muslim (or a christian, jew, hindu or any other religion) is based on the religious books (if any) he/she professes to be guided by. Since Ahmedis profess to be guided by the Quran, I consider them muslims. While I do not agree with their interpretation, I certainly consider their behavior to be far more in conformity with the Quran than any of the sunni or shia fundamentalists who call them nonmuslims. And for the same reason, I consider these fundamentalists to be nonmuslims given their blatant violation of the fundamental Quranic injunctions on matters of religion and their attempts to replace individual responsibility to God (as provided in the Quran) with the concept of an ummah where the individual is responsible for following self-appointed representatives of God.

This litmus test can of course also be used to answer questions raised by dost mittar - I dont know if the Druze profess to be guided by the Quran, but if they do then they are muslims. If not, that is fine too (since being a muslim is no big deal in the eyes of God, as clearly indicated in the Quran and contrary to the views of the self-appointed representatives of God in muslim countries).

PS:

Since you completely avoided my simple question about the plebiscite in Kashmir .. do I take it that you don`t have an answer? You just can`t expect us to take you seriously with your overwhelming jingoism, lack of balance and your outright display of hatred for all things Pakistani.

And what about Karachi... nobody considers Karachi disputed... then why is RAW so actively involved there?

-YLH

Dear HumSab,

None of the following is a ‘defence’ of Jinnah… below is a simple debate… and various point of views people have on the issues you have mentioned… whatever `Hagiography` I am guilty of was done in response to some people`s attempt to make Gandhi a God while insulting Jinnah.

“I agree to your point of Jinnah having all those qualities but he had lots of faults also as all of us including Gandhi and Nehru have/had.”

True … and Jinnah prided himself in being a mortal. Like I have said before, Jinnah was susceptible to mistakes… one particular statement which I am indignant about is the ‘typewriter’ statement… by making a statement like that he discredited the achievement of Muslim Leaguers who had by 1947 been to jail for Pakistan… ( analogous to Imran Khan’s ‘At the twilight of my career I finally won the world cup’ speech at Melbourne in 1992)… undeniably Jinnah had his share of faults like all human beings do… but it is his courage, his foresight, his complete honesty and integrity, his incorruptibility and his impartiality that make me admire him.

Was Jinnah a democrat? I don’t know… I know he believed in Civilian Rule and Army’s subordination… I know he was an excellent legislator during his 20 odd years in the British India representative assembly… he believed in freedom of press as is evidenced in the hostile articles published in even papers like Dawn and Nawai Waqt in his time against what they thought were ‘Jinnah’s dictatorial policies’. He more than any other leader in the History of Muslim South Asia till his death spoke out about women’s equality. And about the rights of minorities … he was a constitutionalist…. But did he want all executive authority centered in one individual? Maybe … Maybe not… It is quite clear that Jinnah himself would have preferred a more American form of Government… one of his notes found stated ‘parliamentary form of government has worked excellently in England but has generally failed elsewhere’. Does this mean Jinnah preferred presidential form of government … given his experience as a legislator in a viceregal system? That is for the historians to decide. Perhaps it is worthwhile noting that democracy is not only of the parliamentary Westminster form… though we know Jinnah held that form in great esteem...

``saara berha garq Jinnah da hi kitta hoya. Apne jinde ji koi second leadership develop nahi hon ditti kyonki khud dictator wang Party chalanda si te mar gaya taN mulq da kuchh nahi bacheya.``

First of all, just because someone is a journalist doesn’t mean his view is the gospel. Anyway… I agree that Jinnah’s inability to create a second tier leadership, a viable constitution and his assumption of Executive authority through the office of governor-general created a lot of problems… but could Jinnah have created a second tier leadership? It is worth remembering that Jinnah was an Urbanite ex-Congressite Bombaywallah while the Muslim League in the start was an elitist organization of the landed Muslim Nobility. In 1935 when Jinnah returned, he faced the enormous task of transforming a moribund league into a party of the masses. In order to do that .. Jinnah had to contend with the nawabzadas, the muslim rajahs, jagirdars, sirs and Sirdars etc who by virtue of Birth had greater weight and status in the Muslim Community… On the other Jinnah was a Westernized urbanite not-very-religious Muslim who came from a very middle class family in Karachi … so when Jinnah went about organizing the League he naturally had to employ all means to subjugate these individuals in his unity of command (though he went through the ceremonial process of party elections every year as an article of faith)… In other words he had to show the Sikandar Hayats and the Khizar Hayat Tiwanas, the Haqs, the Soomros, the feudals of Punjab, and Sindh and Bengal, who the Boss was… who was their daddy… basically. (Kinda like Ataturk in Turkey who had to use such tactics to bring the Turk Nationalists solidly behind his own unity of command).

About the Governor-Generalship… I agree that it would have been better for Pakistan if Jinnah would have become the Prime Minister… many authors have blamed Jinnah for creating a bad precedent there… though others like Alan Mcgrath (Destruction of Pakistan’s Democracy), Ayesha Jalal (the State of Martial Rule) and Khalid Bin Sayeed ( Pakistan the formative Phase) disagree… according to them it was necessary for Jinnah to be the Governor General … it is also put forth as a view that Mountbatten wanted the Governor-Generalship of Pakistan as well as India which was unacceptable to the Muslim League… furthermore there is conclusive evidence that Jinnah was forced by the League to play any part at all in mid June.. because after the 3rd June 1947 Jinnah indicated that he was going to retire from politics and live out his days in his house on 2 Mount Pleasant Road Bombay…

Was Jinnah a strong and almost autocratic GG? Yes he was… and as the authors mentioned above will tell you… this was necessary… he didn’t play any games to get to that place… you have to remember that people called him the Quaid e Azam… he was the one symbol of Unity, much more than even Islamic culture, for Pakistan. His status was above and beyond other leaders of the League … yet despite all these powers concentrated in his own person he didn’t impose a constitution of his will… he didn’t try to interfere with the working of the constituent assembly as Ataturk had done in the Turkish Assembly… all the actions he took were within the framework of the modified 1935 Government of India Act, never overstepping his authority once… NWFP and later on Sindh were sore points… history still hasn’t revealed why despite all the cordiality in Karachi A G Khan and Jinnah couldn’t come to an agreement… or what role the NWFP Muslim League played in the whole saga… Dr.Khan Sahib’s ministry shouldn’t have been dismissed if indeed he had taken an oath of loyalty to Pakistan as some versions say was the case… I have already explained my views on the Language issue…

Anyway this is one way of looking at all of this… but you and I agree that Jinnah was a mortal with qualities and flaws just like the rest of us…

Sadna..

Mind explaining how a simple 3 line question with no malice amounts to ‘wasting so much time on Mr.Kant’? Are you getting a regular eye sight check… cuz I am worried about you… Infact the amount of stupid answers I got shows how insecure Indians are about all of this… Why must Jinnah’s type writer be made an issue of?

I believe there are a few Gujurati Language papers published in Karachi… (I don’t think that proves my point though… since the inscription on Jinnah’s tomb in Karachi is also in Gujurati with a non-Arabic script)… whatever the regional language of these immigrants… you forget that they can also speak Hindi? Or am I mistaken.. because a lot of Marathi speaking and gujurati speaking Indians at Rutgers also spoke fluent Hindi…

“Did these reports say anywhere that Western aid didnot play a role?”

Did I say that Western Aid didn’t play a role? But the reports you talk about don’t mention Aid one way or the other… Foreign Direct Investment by companies like GM in 1950s could have been a factor though don’t you think?

“And according to me Emma Duncan had a soft corner for Pakistan. She says it herself too.”

Like I said I really don’t care what you think… and as far as her.. she said it and you believed it? Why ? is it because she is white… while you don’t believe us fellow brown skinned Pakistanis?



You speak of the exploitation of the Bengalis… Point taken… but Pakistani Economy’s Boomtime was late 1970s … (Afghanistan Aid started pouring in during Reagan’s period and not Carter’s … Zia rejected Carter’s 400 million in 1979 as Peanuts and Pakistan’s AID had been suspended all through out the 70s) the near 7% growth rate was ALSO achieved in 1993 before the AFC and the general Economic slump and after the US sanctions in 1991.

About NUKES… Once again I am not asking you why or why not India initiated the Nuclear Arms race in South Asia.. whatever happened to Gandhian nonviolence which Gandhi articulated in his advice to the Linlithgow something to the effect that ‘let the Nazis occupy England, get slaughtered man woman and child, but don’t give up in spirit.’ Whatever happened to Gandhi’s ‘Non-violent’ Army? Are you suggesting that the Chinese or the Pakistanis or the Americans are somehow worse than the Nazis … that Ahimsa and Satyagraha according to Gandhi should have worked with the Nazis but not with the Chinese, the Pakistanis and the Americans? The fact my dear is that followers of Gandhi like the late and great Dr.Kant and the Kabir-Bhagt APJ A Kalam President of India are active proponents of the weapons of Mass destruction. This is an ironic contradiction.

“ but he, the most `hawkish` Indian as seen by Pakistanis, suggests a confederation,”

Has it occurred to you that we Pakistanis, evil as we are, might consider this as a sinister attempt at ‘re-unification’ and the revitalization of the ‘akhand bharat’ which the Hindu fundamentalists think was vivisected by the crazed Muslims? Have you considered why a self proclaimed Hinduvtist like Advani would want a confederation with Pakistan which he so blatantly hates, except that it is his desire to see Bharat Mata one again? See the whole idea of confederation was valid only till a famous Congress Leader rejected it in 1946 … to reopen old wounds shows a sinister mentality on Mr.Advani’s part… we cherish our complete sovereignty… upon the solution of Kashmir we do desire friendly and even brotherly ties with India (though lot has passed under the bridge not just water)… but we consider all ideas of ‘Confederation’ as inimical to our interests… a word of advice: why don’t you ask Bangladesh to make a Confederation with you instead of us? They will never agree as we will never agree… so please don’t try to pass off thinly veiled attempts at resuscitating the ‘Akhand Bharat Mata’ as signs of secular moderation.

Why not sit down and solve the Kashmir dispute… why not stop RAW from fomenting sectarian and ethnic trouble in Pakistan… (since you never mentioned the nefarious activities of RAW in your posts, I won’t say a single word about ISI’s activies in India)… end the security turmoil… end fundamentalism in both countries… and upon establishment of genuine democracy in Pakistan WHY not exist as two sovereign Democracies working together on International/Bilateral forums to reduce poverty in our nations… perhaps reducing nationalistic competition to the fields of IT, education, arts, culture, tourism and sports? Instead of NUKES?

MORE ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS IN KARACHI

One should always read between the lines. Here is why Indians might prefer living in Pakistan illegally than live legally in their own country:

Emma Duncan says about the illegal immigrants in Pakistan:

‘They aren’t impoverished squatters, of the sort whose shacks line the pavements and cram any available space in Bombay. Many of the houses in the illegal townships are better than the flats the Indian Government provides its civil servants”

(Page 170 Breaking the Curfew Arrow Books)

krashid #220:

``As Muslim do not fulfil the definition of Christianity although they believe in jesus as prophet. No they fulfil the definition of Judaism although they believe in Moses as prophet of God also.``

This is a question I have been meaning to ask for some time. What is the status of Jesus Christ in Islam? Do Muslims acknowledge him as Son of God? Do they believe in the Immaculate Conception?

ylh #221:

Regarding Muslim League`s contribution to the freedom struggle, were they fighting for freedom for India from the British or were they fighting for Pakistan at that time? Anyway, regarding Jinnah`s typewriter, it`s good to see you criticize him, for a change ;-)

``This is not issue with Indians as such… but in general… when Pakistan was created, Urdu was as much spoken in West Pakistan as it was spoken in the East… It was not the language of Sindh, Baluchistan, Punjab or NWFP… as it was not the language of Bengal… It was chosen for its significance as a Muslim cultural language… remember Jinnah’s own mother tongue was Gujurati``

Muslim cultural heritage? Indian Muslims portray Urdu as the heritage of both Hindus and Muslims... I guess both are true. Anyway, Bengalis and Tamilians are the two groups most fanatically proud of their language and culture in India. Jinnah should have known better than to impose Urdu on Bengalis :-) I think he should have gone for Arabic as the national language - would be very difficult to oppose, and it would have stood you guys in good stead with the Arabs, apart from helping in understanding the Koran.

Dost- Mittar #224

As I explained in post to TAhmed.

For me and acceptance by majority of Muslims as Muslims.

History of Aga Khanis is actually history of Shiism. Where they have a split at seventh Imam. Actually they are Ismaelis (related to split at seventh Imam).

I have not much information on Druze (If they are Alavi they are a brach of Shiism also).

One of the basic tenet of Islam is monotheism. There is no partner to God. Anybody who makes human having a share in God`s power is deviating . It also includes people believing in miraculous powers of dead people (like Moinuddin Chishti Ajmeri etc).

In my opinion those were pious people who influenced lot of people. It is the followers who started to believe to the point of divinity.

With this thinking in mind, I have referred deviant Muslim.

ylh #223
Re 7% growth
Did these reports say anywhere that Western aid didnot play a role? And remember East Pakistan had some grievances? One was that they were economically exploited by West Pakistan in the 50s and 60s, contributing to growth of the West Pakistani economy which was not replicated in their own.

That is not to say that the Pakistani economy cannot do well or didnot ever, in the past. But its better to look at ALL the facts not just the comfortable ones.

And according to me Emma Duncan had a soft corner for Pakistan. She says it herself too.

Talking of facts, what language do these purported Indian immigrants speak? Gujarati? Marathi? Punjabi?

And write what you want about India, but why waste so much time on Krishan Kant? He was respected for his public career as politician and activist and was almost a certainty for the President`s post but he is now dead. He would have been dead in December if the 5 Pakistanis who attacked Parliament had had their way.

Re nuclear weapons. India has to contend not just with Pakistan, but with China too, as well as Chinese-Pakistani cooperation as well as US-Pakistan cooperation.

I have no use for Advani myself, but he, the most `hawkish` Indian as seen by Pakistanis, suggests a confederation, about which btw he clarifies he means a confederation between sovereign countries, and what does he get in return? Curses and brickbats.

Two countries which have a lot invested in each other willnot bomb each other with either nuclear or conventional weapons. The sooner people realise this, the better.

Dear anNy

I am glad that you don’t hate me:) because I have always had the utmost respect for you… you are one of the few along with the author of this article… I was thinking about going to Karachi on the 13th for the Junoon concert.. but I haven`t gotten any details of that yet... So nothing is final yet...

what about you?

By the way do you watch Karachi’s Music Channel ‘Indus Music’ and other channels of Indus Network… they are just awesome… don’t you find it sad that some artists (like Shima Kirmani) claim abroad that dancing and singing is banned by Law in Pakistan? Despite all that is going on with atleast 5 new independent channels (ARY, UniPLUS, TPC, Indus, Indus Music, the City Channel etc) promoting music and dance in Pakistan? Why do we love putting our country down… I am asking this because of all the hoo haa here on chowk after my reaction to lies published by Seth Mydans in NY Times a few months back…

ASO

``A grenade does not explode just by taking out the pin. The liver, which is held in the place by the pin, has to be removed. So if you still keep the liver in place and take out the pin, grenade does not go BANG. Did you also consider Ganguly may have been attempting to be funny?``

I am sure Sumit Ganguly is a professional grenade expert who knows how to keep the `Liver` in place after the pin holding it in place was removed for god knows what reasons? Let me remind you that Mr.Ganguly said : I took the Pin out to make it safe... Won`t you say taking the pin out made it less safe despite Mr.Ganguly`s PROFESSIONAL EXPERTISE in matters of grenade? It is quite clear that Sumit Ganguly was making the story up.. besides you can`t buy a grenade in the Open market in peshawar.. if someone knows how to... I`ll be willing to reimburse him for his trip to Pakistan if he shows me where to buy a grenade from in Peshawar. There is a weapons problem in NWFP in the tribal areas which have been autonomous since the British ... but the tribal areas are not Peshawar which is a provincial capital and generally free of violence.

As for Sumit Ganguly being funny... I had the unfortunate experience of meeting him at Yale and believe me whatever is funny about him is not intentional... No … he wasn’t being funny.

Mithuna,

I recalled accurately I think… anyway the interview was in early part of 2001 before April (I’ll check again though)… it became really famous too as many people know … it might even have been mentioned on Chowk before…

Sadna,

Only a person with absolutely 0 knowledge of Economics will say attribute completely the huge near 7% annual Economic growth in the 1950s and 1960s to the ‘Western Aid’. On 18th January 1965 the New York Times commented: ‘Pakistan may be on its way toward another Economic Milestone that so far has been reached by only one populous country, the United States.’ Harvard Business Review commented similarly of that period… Harvard studied Pakistan as an efficient Economic growth model in the 1960s… don’t you think they would have said, if all of it was due to ‘Western Aid’?

Don’t try to make the same kind of strawman fallacies your distinguished compatriot (other alias perhaps) P-Mishra2 excels at…My quotes are always accurate to the point… About Emma Duncan let me make it clear… I just quoted her as saying that Pakistan was sort of a Local America for immigrants… I didn’t say she mentioned Indians… that is bad faith on her part I suppose for there are just so many of them in Karachi’s outskirts (in my estimate)… maybe it was because of that soft spot she had for India… maybe it was the strains in her relationship with a well known Pakistani celebrity which created that soft spot… maybe her funding was from India’s businessmen that she frequently mentions… in any event the book she wrote is extremely readable … and serves as a mirror for Pakistanis… but I am not going to speculate with certainty as to why she didn’t mention Indian immigrants when there are scores of them around Karachi I believe ( Perhaps some Karachite whom you trust can do a survey… or maybe you can visit Pakistan to see for yourself? In any event I don’t give a damn what you think or don’t think)

``You will need to provide some corroboration for your `hundreds of illegal Indian scum` remark before it can be accepted.``

For the record : I said `Immigrant scum`... another attempt at a strawman fallacy is it? this is how you Indians try to win arguments... Kindly take the silly notion out of your overinflated head that I need you to accept anything... it is a fact.. there have been several documentaries... I am informing you that a lot of them, especially the ones living around Karachi in shanti towns are Indians who have crossed over the Border from India... the horrible Indian movie ‘refugee’ shows how there is cross border activity of Bihari Immigrants into Sindh but what it doesn`t show is that some of those immigrants are Indians who go to Pakistan for a better life ... (while some are RAW trained terrorist sent into foment sectarian and ethnic trouble).. if you don`t want to accept any of this.. you have right too... (just like we have the right to claim that there was NEVER any cross border infiltration into Kashmir) ... your accepting or our claiming doesn`t make something true... Gandhian hog wash of truth being relative aint true.. truth is fact and facts are true...



Gandhi’s Statue : As for the statues, there were many ... but the Gandhi statue I was talking about was the one outside the Sindh High Court Karachi in 1947 ... it was sanctioned in the 1930s by the British Government.. it was threatened in 1947 and so the first Governor General of Pakistan, Mr.M A Jinnah, acted swiftly to protect it ordering it to be put at a safe place.. Later the statue was given to the Indian High commission in Karachi by the same government to put outside its compound... Today the statue stands in Islamabad .. in the lawn of the Indian High Commission ...As for your pathetic defence of Non-violent preachers who preach Nuclear Arms... here is some new information for you... India was the first country to go nuclear in 1974 ... Pakistan didn`t initiate the Nuclear Arms Race... its amazing even when India excretes ... it is noble for you...

Let me make something clear to you... You have no right to tell me anything unless you do it yourself.. If you shut up about Pakistan... I will shut up about India... don`t give me that nonsense about insurgency... it is quite apparent that anything happens in India it is blamed on Pakistan... as if India is totally innocent... You have fomented trouble in Pakistan for 55 years... Your utter Hypocrisy and Bigotry ... plus your predilection to fallacy never ceases to amaze me...

Answer the simple question: Why doesn`t India hold a plebiscite in Kashmir?

The answer to that is a very sad one.. and I am sure sanctimonious garbage that you utter has no place for truth does it? One could make a scapegoat out of the fact that `Pakistan didn`t withdraw its troops` ... but the fact is that India doesn`t even recognize Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed territory... when it explicitly promised otherwise some 50 years ago... If India were serious in holding a plebiscite in the valley... Pakistan would withdraw its troops... no one can deny that. It must be kept in mind that Pakistani held Kashmir retains its special status as Azad Jammu and Kashmir with an Elected Prime Minister and legislature within a sort of a Pakistani commonwealth... even when Pakistan itself is denied democracy...



Roohi...

How is the call for prayer related to the issue of Kashmiris? Pakistan`s standard line may well be something else... and I don`t want to go into that... but is the Indian government even ready to talk on Kashmir???The basis of the problem is in the denial of the right of self determination... pointing fingers at Pakistan is not necessarily going to excuse India for that...

You have accused me of taking a one-sided stance on India and Pakistan... I have been more than willing, as many of your countrymen here know, to take a balanced approach... but none of it has been reciprocated... Instead of preaching to me, who has in the past made every effort to start a fruitful and productive dialogue... why don`t you try preaching to your own people...

As god is my witness I have hardened my stance over time... (I am well aware that Kashmir`s solution is not going to be on the lines Pakistani or Indian positions but a compromise) when I didn`t see even a kernel of hope of reciprocation amongst Indians... even people like you who claim to be moderates... Now you are accusing Aisha of all sorts of things... seems to me you didn`t even have the courtesy read the whole damn thing...

Read this part in Aisha`s Article:

``My solution to the Kashmir issue; cultivation of greater tolerance for other beliefs, yet never compromising on ones own, being a citizen of the world yet beginning with one’s own country. Working at grass root levels in Kashmir and believing that one day the world would meet God halfway, by being nice to its neighbors. This is not an over-simplification of the problem in Kashmir. I attempted to internalize the many details, so I’d be better equipped to step into the domain, but after lots of thought, I have created a new domain, the domain of “ fighting with peace”. Taking Pakistan’s land away doesn’t mean we’ll stupidly remain silent, but because the Kashmiris quality of life is much more important (and besides there has been too many rivers of blood) we’ll keep our feet firm on the ground, in peace not in arrogance``

You claimed that this person was spreading hate .. simply because her view didn`t correspond with your own view... So tell me whose view is balanced? Who is the Bigot?

About the other post let me assure you.. I am not in need of your praise.. whatever little I contribute to my country is done not for your praise... secondly you say:

``Also it is quite possible to want and work for the good of your country as well as that of mankind in general at the same time. One is a subset of the other.``

I believe that when I am working for the good of my country I am improving the world... I am not an idealist in the sense you want me to be... I don`t have pipe dreams... I will not volunteer in Africa to wipe out hunger war and famine there... that is their job... I personally don`t give a damn about the sufferings of Gujurati Muslims or Hindus.. I am more concerned with the plight of Pakistani Hindus, Christians.. My job is improving my own neighborhood.. my own little corner of the world.. if everyone was as selfish as me... the world would be a much better place...



The youth you talk about... the ones who are concerned about World peace, and world`s hunger more often than not end up working in the corporate sector in the United States, living cosy lives in their apartments in Manhattan or the Silicon Valley ... They haven`t wiped out the world`s hunger...

Please note that the bitter tone I am taking with you is the result of sustained erosion of good will on my part… I had gone to the US some 4 years ago as someone who really didn’t know what the hell Kashmir was about… who enjoyed a good Shah Rukh Khan/ Ashwariyah flick, whose favorite pop singer was Asha Bhonsle the Queen of Pop or so I thought..… whose only display of ‘Nationalism’ was when Pakistan played cricket against India… this was me… My earliest friends in the US were 5 Indians… one of them was Mr.Jignesh Gandhi, whom I had asked starry eyed on the first day if he was related to Mahatma Gandhi (he looked somewhat like him too)? Though on a personal level I got along well with them… but the bigotry I faced at the hands of Indians, their subtle sneers… their disapproval of my eating habits.. and then on a national level.. their constant attempts to veer me into political debates forced me read more and discover the truth… then after September 11th… all out lies about Pakistan by Indian intellectuals… all of this made me turn bitter… Some where along the way I made a conscious decision of returning to Pakistan after I was done with school despite my overwhelming love for all things American…When I returned from the US, my cousins told me that they found me considerably less religious, and more anti-Indian… isn’t that an ironic statement? One would imagine from the garbage Indians spout on these boards that anyone who is anti-Indian is an Islamic fundamentalist… I was the biggest fan of Indian Music in my extended family… now I don’t sit in the same room if someone turns on Indian Music…

We all have biases... but they usually have a reason.. and I have given you mine.. So whats yours?

-YLH

YLH # 198

Nice to see your passionate outburst here after a long time.

Now, just get back to the earlier post and tell me where did I make any comment on Jinnah except the Title of Jinnah and democracy.

I agree to your point of Jinnah having all those qualities but he had lots of faults also as all of us including Gandhi and Nehru have/had.

Now, a reality chaeck. A Pakistani friend once remaked about Jinnah, ``saara berha garq Jinnah da hi kitta hoya. Apne jinde ji koi second leadership develop nahi hon ditti kyonki khud dictator wang Party chalanda si te mar gaya taN mulq da kuchh nahi bacheya.``

And this friend is a journalist.

Best Wishes.

Have a good day!

Have some patience when you read and respond!

There are a few issues I want to tackle in this post…

FREEDOM STRUGGLE

First I want to speak of the Indian Arrogance… it seems to me that revisionism has led the Indian Nationalists to believe that no Muslim Leaguer was ever arrested for sedition… Nothing can be farthest from the truth… whereas it is true that Muslim League didn’t participate in the not very useful Quit India movement… Muslim Leaguers were arrested and tried for sedition especially in the closing stages of the Raj… (I personally don’t see what that proves though)…

Perhaps the most memorable act in the History of the ‘Freedom struggle’ was the raiding of the Punjab Secretariat in Feb 1947, when Muslim League women climbed atop the building, took off the British Flag and replaced it with the Muslim League flag… after that all of them were arrested… It is true that Jinnah was one unifying influence for them … but his statement that ‘I won Pakistan with my typewriter’ is an over-estimation of his own ability… No leader is strong without his people… and Jinnah’s strength with millions who rallied around him… the reason Jinnah wasn’t arrested in that critical last year of the Raj was not just because he carefuly remained inside the constitutional limits… One British official spoke of his prestige amongst the Muslims and likened it to that of the Mughal Emperors like Akbar-e-Azam … which the British naturally feared would cause a revolt in the whole of India if Jinnah was ever arrested.

… There were many Muslim League leaders in Punjab who were arrested … Infact the entire Leadership of the Punjab Muslim League spent many nights in Jail…Two major women leaders arrested in this period who later became famous as legislators and activists for Monogamy in Pakistan were:

Begum Jahan Ara Shahnawaz, 7 Months kaid ba mushaqat

Begum Tassadaq, 6 Months kaid ba mushaqat

Maybe there is some truth to the fact that British had during the war tried to use Muslim League’s differences with the Congress to its advantage… though it is also true that any anti-fascist worth his salt would have sided with the British during the war as the Muslim League did… but there is no disputing the fact that British considered Muslim League a potent threat after the war and did all it could to curb it…

Yet these sagas of ARRESTS doesn’t make the slightest difference… all leaders arrested in the 1930s were arrested to be propped up as leaders… (How could a seditious leader like Gandhi’s statues be sanctioned by the British Government in India ?? Have you given it some thought?) We have conclusive evidence of British strategy of creating demagogues in the Congress… and less successfully in the League… from 1937-1941 it was the league’s turn but the swelling up of League’s numbers through revitalization of it under Jinnah, made the British rethink their strategy… Congress’s miscalculation left the door open… Jinnah had played his hand very well… those like Bose in the Congress lost out their local gods… which eventually forced him to create that colossal failure the INA.



PAKISTAN’S ECONOMY

Secondly it seems that Indians are of the view that a few billion dollars of aid thrown our way in the 1980s was the only reason our country was relatively more prosperous than theirs… this is also a travesty of truth… yes Pakistan received aid… but Pakistan had concentrated, on advice of top Economists of the World, to the creation of a free market Economy from 1947-1972 and had done so very successfully… in the Economic Growth (not Economic development)… Then some of the illiberal policies of the Pseudo-Socialist Regime of Bhutto also favored such growth though the over all effect was negative… the Prosperity of the 1980s was not due to ‘Western Aid’… that aid should have helped us in the 1990s and not the 1980s… So Indians Please… give up this ill founded superiority complex that all of you seem to suffer from…

Pakistan is a country of tremendous Economic potential which is not yet tapped… We are also very rich in human resource sector… All this potential has been squandered… but that doesn’t mean we are able to… It is a fact that illegal immigrants from India of all religions are pouring into Pakistan… whether Emma Duncan specifically mentioned India in her book or not…

THE LANGUAGE ISSUE

This is not issue with Indians as such… but in general… when Pakistan was created, Urdu was as much spoken in West Pakistan as it was spoken in the East… It was not the language of Sindh, Baluchistan, Punjab or NWFP… as it was not the language of Bengal… It was chosen for its significance as a Muslim cultural language… remember Jinnah’s own mother tongue was Gujurati …

Bengalis had legitimate concerns in 1971… their treatment at the hands of west Pakistanis was horrific to say the least… the excesses committed against them are a sad chapter in the world’s history… their issues like their share in Economic development, were valid.. but the Language was a stupid issue… Now Punjabis are a majority… should Punjabis demand Punjabi as the National Language of Pakistan? It’s not like Jinnah told Bengalis that they couldn’t have Bengali as their provincial language… Infact he said ‘Bengali will be the Provincial Language of Bengal’ in that famous address that is castigated by the Bengalis… And its not like Bengali never became the state language… conceding to this obnoxious demand Bengali was made the official state language alongside Urdu in 1956 …

-YLH

TAhmed#

Kalma to accept Islam.

``La Ilaha Illallah

Mohammedur Rasul Allah.

Eeman Mujmil:

Amanto Billahe- Wa Malaikatehi, Wa Kutubehi, Wa Rusulehi, Wal Yaumil Aakhir.``

Ahmedi does not fit. As is Bahai and other sects.

I may agree with you that there are many wrong things done in the name of Islam. Bringing isolated Ayah, Fake Hadith.

I call that deviant Muslim.

But Ahmedi`s does not fulfil the definition of Muslim.

As Muslim do not fulfil the definition of Christianity although they believe in jesus as prophet. No they fulfil the definition of Judaism although they believe in Moses as prophet of God also.

Did Mirza Ahmed add upon something in Islam. Yes. Did he gave his own interpretation of Islam. Yes.

But so lot of other sects.

Why they are non Muslims.

Because you can argue with other people, and their wrong thoughts..

You cannot argue with word of prophet. Because according to belief Prophet speaks the word from God.

That is why you cannot consider them Muslims.

The problem is not that he gave some unusual interpretation of Quran. It has been done by many including Ibn-e-Timia and more recently Ghulam Ahmed Pervez. The problem with Mirza is that he claimed himself as Prophet of God.

Ref ylh #: 199

[It is amazing that a few Billion dollars of Aid over 7 years made Pakistan a `local america`.. How blind can Indians be?]

Absolutely right. Just like in America, there is a gun in every nightstand in Pakistan.

The comparison with The Great Satan stops right there.

Ref Humsab #: 190

[JINNAH AND DEMOCRACY]

Yasser Latif Hamdani, that dear boy educated at Rutgers, has informed me in a private communication that in ancient Greek ``Demos`` meant Jinnah.

Ref ylh #: 188

[Please don`t bother with Mr.Harimau... this senile uncle was `educated in the time of Nehru` and everything he knows is the `Word of God and Gospel`...]

Yasser, dear boy, not to worry. I shall soon move to the Desi ghetto aka New Jersey and enroll in that esteemed Ivy League institution called Rutgers University to deprogram myself.

Ref YLH #: 183

[My father`s business is the leasing of Vehicles (heavy and light)... to both privately and publicly owned firms...

You can see this actually taking place on ground the way my father`s business is booming again.. but that sadly will be lost on those who suffer from iodine deficiency.]

Yasser, dear boy, how about sending truckloads of iodine to India? Your father`s truck leasing business will be booming even more and Indians will finally qualify to study at Rutgers!

Ref Krash-Id #: 180

[TAhned#

Your statement on Sattar 2.

If he is not non-Muslim. He is Muslim.

There is no third option.

What is your minimum definition of Muslim.]

Don`t hold your breath.

I have given the learned Mullah till Hell freezes over to answer that question.

He fully intends to use all the time given to him.

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/aug01/imos.htm

``..With a view to disrupting the forthcoming assembly elections, militants today started targeting the tentatively listed candidates. The beginning was made with the killing of Fayaz Ahmad Bhat at Tral in south Kashmir. Though he was working as naib tehsildar in the revenue department, his name had recently figured in the tentative list of candidates of the National Conference from Tral constituency.

Fayaz was the third member of his family gunned down by militants during the last 12 years of militancy. His father, Mohammad Subhan Bhat, a former legislator, was shot dead in 1991. This was followed by the killing of his brother Showkat Ahmad Bhat in 1994...``

YLH - now just for fun guess which rally I support kiddo !

Groups at odds over answer to Kashmir crisis

Some think talk can lead to peace; others back Indian army`s buildup

By Christine Walsh (Aug 1 2002)

BOSTON — There were two rallies, held on separate June weekends in Copley Square, with very separate themes.

One was a cry for justice for all victims of violence in Kashmir, chastising Pakistan as a promoter and sponsor of terrorism.

The other was a call for peace in South Asia, urging more talk between the governments and citizens of India and Pakistan and fewer troops along the countries` borders.

Although they are thousands of miles away from the subcontinent, local South Asian organizations have strong, passionate views about the dispute over Kashmir. They don`t always agree on how — and whether — peace can be achieved.

Some say India and Pakistan must have a dialogue and work toward peacefully removing some of the million soldiers posted along their borders. Others are harsh critics of Pakistan and say the Indian army is the only way to stop terror attacks in Kashmir. Somewhere between 33,000 (according to India) and 80,000 (according to separatists) people have been killed in the violence in Kashmir since 1989.

Rajesh Kasturirangan, president of the South Asian Center, which organized the peace rally, believes the two countries should sit down and talk about a peace process that involves de-escalation of the military buildup on both sides of the border.

``War has never been a solution for peace,`` said Kasturirangan, a native of Delhi, India.

Chandrakant Panse, director of media watch for the Friends of India Society International, which organized the justice rally, said India`s army must remain massed the border until terrorism stops.

``De-escalation is not only incredibly naïve, but a very stupid thing to do — because de-escalation means an invitation to increase terrorism,`` he said. ``And these are innocent civilians who are being victimized because of the naivete bordering on stupidity in the demands for de-escalation.``

Panse expressed such sentiments when he criticized Asha-Boston for endorsing the peace rally and de-escalation. He began a back-and-forth of politically charged