What it means to be me in Corporate America?

This is interesting if a bit cloudy and confusing. While I understand the rhetorical strategy of the author juxtaposing contradictory and ambivalent images to make her point, it could be a great deal more powerful with some more editing of this device and the insertion of some straight narrative. For example, each paragraph having the same device of juxtaposition throughout the work does not allow the reader clarity into the implicit thesis of this piece. My suggestion would be to alternate the paragraphs of juxtaposition with clear, direct narrative, so that both simultanous narratives build slowly and reinforce/dialogue with each other.

As for the content; I would advise the author to revisit the essay and edit sentences that come off too wildly:

``...What does one do when they know they do not sell in Corporate America, despite being from an ally country: When you know you’re worse than marijuana, worse than pot, worse than Viagra?...``

How does Viagra fit into this metaphor? What is the metaphor? Unclear.

``...This loneliness is the worst of its kind. It’s the unrepresentative ethnicity in all the top hundred best product target-demographics. You then don’t feature on any Viacom or Clear-Channel billboard...``

Is this lonliness the average existential lonlinesss of being a human being? Or is it, as the author seems to suggest the special lonliness of being a Pakistani Muslim? If so, be prepared to convince us that your lonliness is different from ours....

``...You get so desperate that you think of organizing to latch onto the Gay rights movement to promote your ethnicity...``

A sentence that does not serve the essay if we apply it to the Aristotlean/Toulmanian model of an ethical essay: logic, emotion and ethics. The author makes too many assumptions; to name a few: that to support Gay rights is a questionable ideal, the unfamilliarity with the Gay Rights movement (perhaps the author might look up South Asian Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Sakhi, Samar, and how gay and lesbian South Asians have become a vital force of social/legal/pol/rel activism in the US-esp. those working with the hundreds of Pakistanis who have been deported to Pakistan after 9/11 for minor legal infractions), and the idea that marginalization that this piece seems to allude to has no linkages. Too distracting, questionable and opens a can of worms the author may not be able to keep a lid on.

``...So desperate that you spell out India with chewing gum on the bus, hoping some old Anglo-Saxon can get annoyed at India...``

Not very strong.

Also the themes of failed states, corporation and religion are too huge to evoke and then abandon. Either go into these themes a bit more or focus on one more thorougly. Otherwise we are abstracted off the page.

Otherwise, a compelling emotional undercurrent. Edit it and develop it more and see what happens.

I don`t visit Chowk very often. So instead of replying to each of your posts, I am replying to all of them.

Your frustration is understandable. It is the latest feeling following pride, defiance, and disgust towards India. I am hopeful that this will transform into admiration and acceptance (as Pervez Hoodbhoy expressed a few months back about India`s system of education). And then Pakistan will have some real progress.

Pakistan despite being a pampered child of the US (spoilt brat?) hasn`t managed to move much in the last 60 years. An India-centric phobia/hate has been the explanation for everything. For a long time we had those amusing comparisons ``Pakistanis are well-fed and clothed; unlike the starving Indian masses``. ``Pakistanis are handsome (tall and fair Central Asians) unlike the brown paunchy yindoos``. Even the seemingly ``liberal`` (actually anything but that) Najam Sethi`s Friday Times caricatures the yindoo as a tuft-bearing brahmin/bania. And of course that vastly over-rated shyster Jinnah (a 2-bit lawyer then fast fading into irrelevance) could not resist drawing comparisons between himself his ``State`` and the measly bania/brahmins across the border. India as the de jure mother state of the Indian Sub-continent kept quiet and continues to brush off this puerile nonsense like water off a duck`s back. For Pakistan a string of military defeats till 1971 put the myth of martial prowess to rest. The 1980s and 90s put the myth of diplomatic prowess to rest as Pakistan`s predictable references to Kashmir were all but drowned out. And in the last decade, Pakistan has continued to fall behind India, economically, culturally, socially, scientifcally and horiffically and tragically. Today even in per capita terms (PPP-GDP) the difference is significant. What ignoramuses like Niaz Naik and Maleeha Lodhi don`t realise is that if India`s misery numbers - poverty, literacy, etc.are high (because of its huge population) its prosperity numbers are correspondingly high. OTOH Pakistan - never a contender on absolute numbers is now fallen behind in percentage terms.

So how does the average Pakistani cope with these facts - no average response. We see a lot of diversity

- acceptance and affiliation - like Adnan Sami who wanted to defect to India

- the sensible admiration with some token noises about ``Kashmir`` bomb etc., - Pervez Hoodbhoy

- the artistic confluence - watching Hindi movies by the ton ``edge of the seat`` hysterics while watching Lagaan (like my friend Zaheer who outdid every Indian in the audience)

- ``South Asianising``. Everything Indian is passed off as ``South Asian``. So Friday Times has a column on the South Asian arts summer in London - Ha! Ha!. A exposition containing Indian and Indian - from movies to art to fashion to food - becomes South Asian - something like Canadians (who unnecessarily) call themselves North American!

Now we come to the serious stuff.

- Peace advicates - who are actually fierce India haters in alliance with the SAJA/South Asian crowd

- the supercilious smirkers - boasting an English high school education, US undergrad degree, green card and horses and servants at home - ``hing eaters`` ``ghaas waale`` are the stock in trade; coupled with referencs to Sumit Ganguly (I like that guy he knows how to hit!)

- And then the fanatics.

When India started this SAARC tamasha in the 1980s there was some basis for comparison. We had a controlled economy - a Hindu rate of growth. Pakistan OTOH had been ticking along well fot three decades. Even then Pakistan was a pretender to equivalence. Then it was an annoyance. Today Pakistan`s pretence to equivalence is a farce fast becoming tragic.

So how about getting real and facing up to reality.

Keep up the whining, the self-rigteousness and the castigation of india and israel. None of this will help you build up a good self-image or make you feel internally that you have done all you could in a good situation. But I guess that culturally and by choice, you feel that whining and complaining is the right thing to do. So go right ahead !

The funniest part of your article is complaining about Sumit Ganguly. Here is an individual who came to the US in the 70`s, when India and Indians were a complete unknowns. Here is an individual who has risen to the highest levels of scholarship in his field purely through his own efforts. Here is a person of integrity who has been heckled and attacked by the RSS and VHP forces in america for speaking the truth about Gujarat and Kashmir. But as he is an indian nationalist, he is evil, he is cunning etc.

Let me make one constructive suggestion. Instead of whining endlessly, take Sumit Ganguly as your role model. Aspire to his level of scholarship in Pakistani studies. Aspire to his integrity as a critic and supporter of Pakistan. Aspire to his level of influence in the US think tanks. Good luck!

Inimitable style of hammering those SOBs with a tong & a Hammer ...boy it feels good like a catharcis.

``..........Of all those pseudo intellectuals who are called on a TV show for an impartial opinion, and deny their Indian origin despite the South Indian sun on their face; those..........``

I bet if they read this will start singing ``baby dont hurt me, baby dont hurt me ooyoooyooooo``

This bharat is a humongous patriarch of the Indian subcontinent (South East Asia)looming ever.... so overshadowing its neigbours that more ppl. hate india [including its OWN ppl.]Every indian is first marathi, gujrati,Bengali & bhaiya but all are anti -pakistan muslim & Islam( Well,not ALL but almost or enough )

Sarwari

If people lie all the time about Pakistan ... are you SURE they are telling the truth about India all the time ......?? ... what you believe you know are 100% khara facts ? ... and YOU know all there is to know about one billion people ? even the one and only Sun is ``South Indian`` uss paar ? never mind the one and only uppar walah ? (Is there a east Punjabi and West Punjabi Sun too ?)

kya hoga aapka ....

``A failed individual, however, is that who lets hate consume him or her.`` - you said it ...

re: Pakistan doesn`t need us, we need Pakistan.

Here is what Pakistan does need:

1) To abolish ordinances such as the hudood ordinance and blasphemy laws (among others) brought about in the dark ages of Zia.

2) To do away with martial law, and feudal tyrants

3) To continue developing from within, increase literacy, more empowerment programs.

4) To do a major overhaul of our education system

5) To rethink its position on Kashmir

and the list continues...

Why the `ell do we want to sell ourselves to Corporate America anyway?

``Pakistan doesn’t need us, we need Pakistan. I’ll keep hanging on.``

Bravo! and you are not now, nor will you be, alone.

Sorry for using your board for this. But chowkies may find this Bina Shah piece interesting.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/review/review7.htm

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My apologies to the writer featured on this board, but this current discussion might apply as a sidebar to the article featured, and the board we were using has been relegated to the past!

Temporal,

Like Mrs. Ashfaq Munir`s Resentment a lot. The recliner and its halo of contentment/cushy throne, tv guide was a nice metaphor. Have you been following this couple in your poems beside this one? Would like to read more!

Hobbyty

re: ``...Save me $12 and just email it to me - if that`s possible....``

I`d be glad to. How would I get a mailing address?

re:``...- I am unsettled by the proposition that we may make definitive statements about these, especially since I don`t think these by definition are amenable to such. Also what we may find and construe to be ``pretty much the same story`` is actually superficial - perhaps it is the journey and the elusive destination that we might understand ``truth`` to be?

Perhaps you are unsettled because underneath the ephemeral and mystical phenomena of spirituality, there are the hard and cold eco/soc/pol/gend/cul realities that cannot be wafted away in ``god`` smoke. Let me give you an everyday example:

Quite recently my uncle died unexpectedly. We were besides ourselves, particularly because we are quite close to his family and secondly, he died the morning of his younger daughter`s wedding, while he was praying. You can imagine the pain this situation caused for the daughters, mother/wife and family, the dillemmas that arouse immediately afterwards in terms of appropriate plans of the daughter`s wedding, and mourning.

At the prayer service of his funeral at an Islamic center in Queens, the women crowded into our small room and read the Q`uran and waited to hear from the men when they would begin prayers, most particularly my uncle`s eldest daughter who was (admirably and maturely) shouldering the organization of directing the women and who wanted to pray for her father.

20 minutes later we get word that the men have prayed and its time to go to the cemetary. No one from the men`s section thought it was imp. enough to inform the women who wanted to pray as well that they had begun their (and is it the ``official`` prayer, being that men call the time?) namaz. We were a bit upset that we did not have the opportunity to pray for our uncle, but there you are; the journey for truth.

When we got to the cemetary, the women stayed on the outskirts of the grave (several feet away) while the men gathered around the grave. The men brought my uncle`s body to the grave and the men started to pray. I stayed on the outskirts because I knew that women were not allowed to be at the gravesite, supposedly because women crying at a graveside causes pain for the deceased party? In essence, women are considered a polluting and emotional entity and therefore are culturally prohibited (in this Pakistani interpretation) from being a part of the the burial service. My aunty stayed with us on the outskirts while her husband was being buried.

As we listened to the prayers of the men, we heard some women voices. Apparently my cousins had insisted on being at their father`s/Mamu`s grave and praying, despite the Mullah Sahib`s directions for them to leave the area.

The women and many men in our family think that the daughters and nieces who read at the grave are to be commended for their action. A few conservative members have opined that it was not appropriate and whats more, will cause my deceased uncle pain and all kinds of hocus pocus complications in the afterlife.

My point is, before we discuss spiritual journeys and quests for truth, we must discuss who has access to these journeys and what kind of interpretation enforces the cultural mores of the practice of religion. We must examine the day to day manifestations of how religion works in terms of gender-the ultimate division of humankind. IF women are barred from the ceremonies of death and other sites of spiritual practice, really, how can this be considered a ``superficial`` matter?

u are what u are and nothing`s gonna effect that, not even corporate america, so why get all worked up about it?

i personally don`t care what anyone thinks of pakistan and it`s a waste of energy to sit and get frustrated about it.

striving to be a decent/hard working pakistani who does good in this world is more important than fussing over the `image of pakistan.`

...yeah, what saminashah said in #1...

Great ending Aisha,

We do need Pakistan. Some of us more than others.
People have often called me too optimistic, but
no matter what happens, Pakistan is FINALLY
on the right track (in ideological direction)
today.
It is time to kick out all fanatic ``guests`` and
their local hosts.
America and Pakistan`s Khakis have both finally
come to their senses. The Frankenstein that
they have created has bitten their masters.
The sad irony is that Pakistanis in general had
very little to do with the creation of this
monster.
Pakistanis have very little to be
ashamed of except that now they have to be brave
enough to retake their religion from madmen.
Laws enacted since Zia need to be repealed.
And Pakistani women need to kick some ....

Ras

saminashah #13:

[...My apologies to the writer featured on this board, but this current discussion might apply as a sidebar to the article featured, and the board we were using has been relegated to the past!...]

let`s move to speaker`s corner...will post those two and another one...when perhaps the begum and janab were courting...that will be a better place than this board...

...my apologies to aisha

lve,

t

Salwar,

You think Pakistan is a failed democracy, not a failed state. Try telling that to that poor anatomy lecturer`s family. He was the guy convicted of blasphemy and sentenced to death for saying Prophet Muhammad did not shave his armpits. This of course being a matter of insult to the Prophet, the guy was sentenced to death and before any appeal could be heard was shot dead inside the jail.

Pakistan is a very successful country whose writ doesn`t run inside its own jails.

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I think you are over-reacting. And you are making unnecessary comparisons.

I have never quite figured out why Pakistanis are so concerned about the opinions of others. What difference does it really make? I think Pakistan needs to have a thicker skin. And it needs to learn to not get emotional about external criticism, and take it with a grain of salt. There is really no need to answer every threat from India with a counter-threat. Nor is there any need to get all worked up about an American`s perception of Pakistan. Specially if he/she cannot tell the difference between Faisalabad and Faisal Town.

If some country makes it to the promised land before Pakistan. So what? Wish them well, and move on. One should try to be successful to satisfy one`s own self, not to compete with others` success.

In my opinion, all this recent analysis/criticism/diagnosis of Pakistan (both of the genuine and the ridiculous variety) is going to prove very healthy for Pakistan. It has brought all the simmering problems to the surface, in front of a world audience. And now Pakistan has been forced to handle these problems. This has not happened to any of the other countries in South Asia. And while things may seem rosier in those areas, the only reason maybe that they have not been forced to wash their laundry in public, and thus may end up shoving their problems under the carpet (which is not a good long term solution).

Every country has certain characteristics. Pakistan`s include a habit of getting itself into unsolvable scenarios, but then having the resilience of getting out of them. Paksitanis live in an extremely tough ghetto-like Asian neighborhood. We have been attacked repaetedly by the world`s biggest military (USSR) and the world`s third biggest military (India), yet we are still around. We have had the worse leaders in the world, but have survived them.

I think with the nuclear deterent, Pakistan will not get attacked, anymore. And sooner or later, someone good will come along, and run a clean government. Mush is doing too bad, if you ask me. At the very least, he is doing far better than all the other South Asian leaders.

In any case, Pakistan needs to cover its chin, tuck in its elbows, and take all the criticism thrown its way right now, without counterattacking. In the long run, this will be healthy.

People only talk about and/or criticise someone if they are interested in them, think they have potential, or are jealous of them. Turbulence is usually a sign of progress. And Pakistan is in a, ``good`` state of turbulence, at the moment.

Remember, if you want to defeat someone, don`t fight them, criticize them, or attack them. Just become more successful than they are. As long as you, yourself, are more successful in your field, than your, ``enemies,`` then you have done your part.

I think the article is poorly written. But even more sickening is the crowing of Indians on this board - guys you are not in touch with the ground realities in India, is all I can say.

`` As a great friend of mine said, Pakistan doesn’t need us, we need Pakistan ``

I would bet that ``Great friend`` is YLH. Sounds exactly like him!!!

{So desperate to avoid the, which-part-of-India-are-you-from question, you always carry the book, “Pakistan: the long view”. So desperate that you spell out India with chewing gum on the bus, hoping some old Anglo-Saxon can get annoyed at India.}

...so petty...it`s ironic that for all your disdain for india, every article you write about pakistan ends up as a tirade about india this and india that...wonder if the problem is ``corporate america`` or your own insecurities...

Aisha,

Others` opinions should not rattle you. Opinions change. Also, Pakistan`s good name can exist independently of the good name of any other nation. There should not be any necessary direct opposition. Different boats can rise together. They often do.

On balance, a good effort. Keep the passion alive.

I don`t think you`ve really answered the question your posed ``What it means to be me in Corporate America?`` Instead you get into that predictable anti-India tirade expected from most pakis on this board.

As long as you pakistanis continue to define yourselves vis avis India, you will never really have an identity. Sure, this strategy helped 7-Up sell itself as the un-cola, but that is advertising. This is the real world.

I suppose your rantings reflect a deeper problem with self-esteem, self-worth and stuff like that.

Define yourself as who you are, not in terms of which passport you hold and you will be able to move on, away from the baggage you are so emotionally attached to.

Was talking to a few folks from Turkey - at the school - last week. One of them is going to be a visiting fellow at an Israeli university this fall. Since I know about the extremely cordial ties between Israel and Turkey; that did not surprise me. ``But then - Cenk - now? All that suicide bombing going on everyday?`` Cenk of course smartly replied - with alacrity - I may add, ``I am interested in cryptography. Where else would I go? Pakistan?`` The irony was unmistakable. I continued gamely, ``why not TIFR or MATSCIENCE`` both of which (in Madras and Bombay resply have a strong computational math program`` ``Well Israel is a lot of fun!`` There`s no point hating India and working yourself up into a froth. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and flattery is the sincerest form of acceptance! ISrael and India together can pull Pakistan out of the hole it is in. Simple. Get rid of that tinpot dictator/CEO/President/Jahaanpanah and shut down this prattle about Kashmir. It is a waste of time. March towards a secular polity or even become like Malaysia. The Malays have struck a fine balance of mutual respect with both the bumiputras - the Indians and the Chinese - and are doing pretty well. I have a radical suggestion to (re)vitalise Pakistan.

Turn over Sindh to the expat Sindhis - the Hindujas, Chanrais, Chellarams - and giving them a long-term lease to run greater Karachi metro as a free-trade zone a la Shanghai. Make Greater Karachi some sort of Hong Kong or Shenzen - a free port with a few extra features. Revamp everything in sight - get the best from all over the world. The Tatas can run the infrastructure, Reliance runs the energy sector (Sui and all that), telecom and IT can be handed over to the Bhartis, and some of the smaller IT companies in India. Hand over the educational system to groups like Swadhyaya, IIT syndicates etc. Form joint-ventures for every service with honest Pakistani entrepreneurs on the board. The expat Sindhis can be put in charge of external relations and representation. Law and order can be turned over to privately run operations from the UK or the US. Keep the Army out and introduce genuine representational government. Going further this can even be made a broad based ``South Asian Initiative`` Bangladesh can be put incharge of family planning, Sri Lanka can take care of primary education and health care. Maldives can run the bureaucracy, Nepal can run tourism etc. And again all these would be joint ventures with strong local involvement. People like Adul Sattar Edhi can provide the local program management and facilitation and oversight. And not to forget - the ``twin-track/half-track/half-wit types like Kuldip Nayyar, Nirmala Deshpande, Ramdas etc., can provide the entertainment! All options can be explored. Pakistan`s creative artistes will be provided market access and be rid of interference from self-appointed guardians of morals. I am sure this would be a great success. The project can begin as an experiment in a region covering 2000-3000 sq.km. around Karachi. Depending upon the pace of change it can be extended to cover all of Sindh over a period of ten years. The tinpots of PA, PAF, and PN can be pensioned off - given green cards (courtesy Uncle Sam) and be asked to join their children (who are all anyway already settled in the US!). It is a one-time expense that I am sure the people of Pakistan would not mind. India will be only too pleased to provide an assurance not to threaten Pakistan. And then after about 30 years the project can be reviewed and a referendum organised to help decide whether the project shd be extended to cover all of Pakistan. And our correspondent Aisha Sarwari can be given a long term contract to join the enterprise first as a management trainee and then make it thru the ranks (or thru a rotational program) working in all functions and be groomed to take over as CEO.

pmishra writes,

``Let me make one constructive suggestion. Instead of whining endlessly, take Sumit Ganguly as your role model. Aspire to his level of scholarship in Pakistani studies.``

Could not agree more with this. For a nation that is barely half a century old, Pakistanis are very poorly informed about their own state. Last year on August 14 my Pak-American friend had invited us for dinner. As we kept talking I was amazed at his ignorance of Rehmat Ali`s role in the fdormulation of the idea of Pakistan. He knew nothing about the man and his obsession. And of course nothing at all about Jinnah`s hijacking of the movement and his actions which rendered Rehmat Ali persona non-grata in Pakistan. When I asked my friend where he got his information from, I was told that this is what is taught in the history books in Pakistan. In India OTOH the variety of sources of information are so diverse and vast. For instance I got to talk to our neighbor in Madras (a Palakkad Iyer) (who is now pushing 80) who was one of the five stenographers at the Muslim League annual session in Madras in the 1940s(?). He was there courtesy Sir CP Ramaswamy Iyer a barrister and close friend of Jinnah (then Diwan of Travancore). Now Iqbal and Rahmat Ali were given to a lot of myth making (as Khushwant Singh has often pointed out) while Jinnah was a hard nosed businessman (actually from a Kutchi bania khandan like Gandhi!) and had no time for all this sentiment! That Pakistani children to grow up on myths of a myth is indeed irony many times over!

Pakistan too has ``mirror/shadow institutions`` modeled after their Indian counterparts. So if India has the Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies, Pakistan has the Pakistan Institute of Strategic Studies (now thankfully renamed Institute of Strategic Studies, Islamabad!) But then while the former is headed and staffed by well educated folk, in Pakistan we have embarassments like Shireen Mazari (who I am quite sure dictates her columns when she is having a manicure/pedicure) Or wannabe like Ijaz Haider in The Friday Times who tie themselves up into knots using convuluted theories (none of which they understand). Like Nietzsche(?) said about history so is Pakistan`s imitation of India`s institutions. Transplants don`t work unless the soil is right. Pakistanis - even intelligent ones - fear knowledge as it will rid them of their biases, myths and prejudice. So we have parodies like Shireen Mazari - who knows that the truth about Pakistan would leave her with no pillars to base her diatribes on. A couple of Pakistanis I have met here in the US tell me that their encounter with Indians on neutral ground was almost liberating. When they found that the typical Indian has very little time to think about Pakistan they felt less threatened. And when they began to grasp how things really work in India it was a revelation. They don`t mind working with Indians - in fact they look forward to it. OTOH there do seem to be some other Pakistanis for whom the encounter produces very strong reactions and drives them further into the dead end of prejudice, recrimination, hate and vengefulness. When Musharraff trained at the Australian staff college, he wrote a paper that proposed the only way ahead for Pakistan as lying in strong economic and cultural ties with India - suggesting an abandonement of the K-focus. But now look at the man when he gets into power!

So instead of carping about Sumit Ganguly and Mohammad Ayoob, try to generate some genuine scholarship. You will be rewarded.

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I could not but think of the old phrase

`Khisani billi khamba notche`

So much hate, so much frustation, and so much pettiness.

You have serious problems ma`am, you need to see a shrink, may be Shanker can help. Although you are in some way reflecting the majority of Pakistanis.

correction #19: ``Mush is doing too bad, if you ask me. At the very least, he is doing far better than all the other South Asian leaders.``

should read,

``Mush is not doing too bad, if you ask me. At the very least, he is doing far better than all the other South Asian leaders.

I don`t zactly understand what is the author`s problem, she is not very clear. If by corporate America she means the US media well at least Pakistanis gets more coverage than citizens in many states of the union like say Oklahoma which gets mentioned only when tornados strike(if at all) or say Wyoming, which is NEVER reported on so might as well fold up and cease to exist.

Romair #19:

Nice post. I agree that this is a major growth, discovery, getting focused and clean-up period for Pakistan. I don`t believe we have had this much freedom of press before, could be wrong. All in all this period is going to have a positive impact in the long-run.

Ayesha,

Very honest and interesting article. I think the trick is to stop thinking of yourself in any ethnic context at all- Indian, Pakistani, Asian- whatever-- and just be as American as you can be. The tragedy is that unless your black or white or (lately) hispanic, you are gonna be an ``outsider``. Don`t matter if you call yourself Bob Rao or Jimmy Khan. The prejudice remains.

One would imagine otherwise but it`s even worse within the Indian community. A friend of mine was telling me how he was eased out of a group of fellow Wadala-wasis (Wadala is a predominantly Tamil Brahmin dominated suburb of Mumbai) because all the others in the group were Gujjus and they politely requested him to ``affiliate`` with the TamBrahm group instead. The guy was shattered, but given our amazing ability to retrogress in the page of newness, who can say it`s not expected.

I expect it`s pretty much the same in the Pakistani community. Watch Bend It Like Beckham for some amusing digs at this mindset of ours.

And chill. Maybe once you accept that you can`t change the world, life will be a lot simpler....

Cheers.

sadna #33

Everyone who is not American can probably identify with the misrepresentation of their ethnicity in the US. They are equal opportunity ignoromuses !! Have you ever been asked if you speak ``Indian``, what the ``dot`` is for, how to make ``curry``, snake-charmers, elephants, tigers, famines, floods, beggers etc.? They probably know more about Middle Earth than India !! Anyone talk to you in spanish ? (happens to me all the time)!

What I don`t get (as usual) about this young person is the passion with which she dislikes being associated with India. Is it because she is in the media business and therefore has to deal all the time with the stereotyping of Pakistanis, promoting the Pakistani world view, their confusion with Indians etc. ? Or is this common to most Pakistanis ?

I also recently read the authors article ``The Kashmir File`` on YLH`s homepage ... which to me was just shocking ... don`t know what happened to optimism, hope, happiness, love, ending world hunger, creating world peace and the other dreams the youth of my day used to indulge in ...

Dear Aisha,

I suspect that this piece is more a conduit for channelling your frustration, as a youth, than anything else. I am, relatively speaking, young (ish-23) also and understand the frustration, for example, when a peaceful march of tens upon tens of thousands gets absolutely no media coverage and yet the pros and cons of greasy fried chips is aired on BBC. No $hit!

I felt the same frustration when I was part of a march myself and it was immaculately civilised. Yet, no coverage was given. Instead, the 50th anniversary of Basil the Fox was being celebrated. Oh, such joy. A man with his hand up a puppet`s ar$e got more coverage, and on a prestigious Channel too, then something of importance.

I felt the same frustration 10 years back in the days of being a greasy teenager when 117 racial attacks had been committed against Bangladeshis, Indians and Pakistanis. Yet, not one high profile paper reported the events. In those days of course, the brownies were bound together by the fear of racism, much like how different oils will become a single droplet if immersed in water. Desi culture had still to make its presence felt in the UK. That same year, one white boy was murdered by 11 Bengali youths and the news went around like an Amsterdam hooker on LSDs. My heart goes out to the mother of the lad but my sadness soured when she said, `Oh, we try so hard to live with them but they don`t want to live with us.`

And suddenly, the images of the youngsters who had been left crippled because of their $hit coloured skins, the houses, which had been smashed and burnt into, the women who had been dragged out and beaten in front of their helpless young sons and daughters - because they were `Pakis` - passed by. What happened to them? Were they not worthy of breakfast shows?

The days that passed, listening to the comments from the `9 a.m.-5 p.m. person` and how `these people didn`t know how to live with us,` I lost respect for the people at the top. What were they playing at, I wondered, pitting one person against the other. But I also lost a little respect for the public because they never tried to step out of their perceptual spheres and to see the other side of the story.

The same thing happened recently with the Burnley-Bradford-North England incidents when the media reported a group of Pakistanis (I think) saying that such and such places were their territories and that no white person was allowed. There were silent protests by everyone, including myself. `How would they feel if we went up to their countries and told them not to live here and there,` said one friend of mine. In no way am I justifying what the Pakistani youth had said but it wasn`t revealed that such things had been stated and aggressively imposed earlier by the BNP fascists and that the Pakistani youth had made the blockades in retaliation.

But by now the publics` mind was made up. `These Pakis/Muslims come to our country and blah blah blah.`

So your experiences are real and your frustration is valid, no matter what anyone else may say. However, it`s this channelling in the form of an article, and in my opinion only, that is a waste of time. Many of the replying posters are way past their sell-by-dates and are comparable to the types I have mentioned above. I apologise to anyone if I have offended you. I`m sure you are far worthier a person than I in almost every manner but you also lack certain qualities, perhaps because of your age, and will not understand the core of this article.

…As far as the India thing is concerned, Aisha, despite your sex, I detect this male version of competitiveness, that of jealousy and wanting to be better because someone else is better than you are. Stick to the female model, it`s far superior, which usually runs on the lines of competing against one`s self. Can`t remember who said it but you should choose your enemies wisely because you will end up like them. Need I say more?

Give up on India, Sarwari. I know there are disputes between the two nations but as far as I`m concerned, it`s just another country with its good and bad points. We share a lot in common but we also have our differences and these differences are not necessarily bad. Come on, Aisha, do you think it`s just the media? People are biased by nature. It`s in our cores to be biased and to b1tch behind someone else`s back, irrespectively. Allow me to give you a snippet of my experiences. I`ve heard Pakistanis call Bangladeshis kafirs because they choose to wear saris instead of shalwar kamiz. I`ve listened to Sikhs call Hindus behnchodes and still resent the 1984 incidents deep inside, despite hating J S Bindrawale. I have heard Hindus wanting to expel the dirty cousin fukkerz out of India, because they`ve been forcing Islam on everyone and looting and raping and pillaging. I`ve heard white girls take the pi$$ out of all the sad brown fuks who are so desperate to get inside their knickerz. Blacks have dissed whites, whites have dissed blacks. Some of them get married, then taunt each other about their histories, and divorce after 10 years. Arabs continue to pronounce white people as trash, then propose marriage to them.

Blacks, Indians, Pakistanis, Nepalese and Bangladeshis of the traditional variety do not feel anything like British, neither do they want to and hold no allegiance to it. Get a mixture of `the natives` in a group and they will discuss why these Indians are so keen trying to emulate them when they know they can’t truly be British. Nevertheless, it`s better to be in the company of an Indian who emulates them then the Pakis or the Bangers. The funniest one was hearing a Pakistani brethren asking me for what my caste was. When I said that as a Muslim I didn`t believe in castes, he slapped his forehead and said, `of course, yaar. Oh yaar, these bloody Hindus have given us castes.` He then continued to enlighten me by saying that the British were rich only, and only, because the Queen had stolen the koh-e-noor diamond. I stared at him like a lamb with its ears down. What did they do to the fckuing thing? Stick it in a matter-antimatter converter or something? The craziest thing is that all these people are genuinely `normal` (I think).

Working for the Samaritans gives you a real insight into the psychology of societies, as well as people. Believe me, people are so different from what they show themselves to be. It`s really ugly.

But again, this is strictly from my experiences and I will always challenge those beliefs.

I`m beginning to blabber now but what I`m trying to say is that people have their own fair share of problems. Ever person and every nation puts the other person down to make itself look better. We all b!tch behind each other`s back. When we are a little more confidant, we do it in front of the other person`s face. It`s not just the media. It`s the people. They want to be biased because they`re lazy and it`s more energetically demanding to continually question your beliefs or to challenge your perceptions. As a person, why would you want to give a damn about what someone else thinks when they have their own biases, agendas and their own problems. Trying to change their bias is a waste of time, time that could be spent somewhere more constructively.

So let`s wish India and the rest of the world the best of luck and continue on our paths. While there`s no shame in learning from and learning about others, we shouldn`t continually get into the `sheep walk` of emulating others or spend time worrying about what someone else thinks. Let`s just focus on our problems, work out creative solutions and what Pakistanis think about it and what little every Pakistani can do towards moving aside those obstacles. To hell with any and all of them; it`s not others problem and I don`t see why they should be entertained.

Best wishes.

Umer M.

Re: The Chowk Interactors

I`m quite sure the author of this article is that ubiquitous 12-head. One can tell that by not only how poorly this article written, but its lack of focus on a central idea. Poor grammar, bad command of the English language, the content that makes no sense, and the clueless author: the hallmark of the 12-head.

This article belongs in the garbage can. Its lack of intelligence should not offend anyone. It`s not worth a serious discussion.

Eklavya:

``On balance, a good effort``

?? Really??? You actually think this was a well written article?? Forget the politics, this was a poorly written piece, with no sense of cohesion.

``Keep the passion alive.``

You mean the hatred, right? I see no positive emotions in this outburst, only negative. Why do I get the feeling that the author would not even care about Pakistan, if India wasn`t next door?

Umer#37

I have not read a more sincere and honest post from any Pakistani in a long time. You are smart, and you know that the real reason behind British prosperity was not Koh-i-noor :-). So learn the strengths of the more successful people and emulate them. God-willing you can beat the goras in their own game like Japanese. But then you HAVE to have the character for doing this. Best wishes.

re: soundmeister

{A friend of mine was telling me how he was eased out of a group of fellow Wadala-wasis (Wadala is a predominantly Tamil Brahmin dominated suburb of Mumbai) because all the others in the group were Gujjus and they politely requested him to ``affiliate`` with the TamBrahm group instead.}

...i`m shocked at how regionalistic some gujjus in america are...form exclusionary cliques and seem quite proud of their narrow-mindedness...

I think terrorists in Pakistan are in big are in big trouble now:

``Pakistan’s first ‘warrior women’ take to the air

KARACHI: Pakistan’s first batch of women sky marshals will take to the air from Monday as part of a plan to tame would-be hijackers, an officer who trained them said.

Nine women, specially trained in martial arts and unarmed combat, will be establishing a record in this conservative patriarchal Islamic society, as they become the first female combatants in the fight against terrorism. Joined by 43 male colleagues, they form the first batch of Pakistan’s sky marshals.

“This is the first time in the history of Pakistan that a batch of warrior women is being trained and inducted in the security affairs,” Major Syed Hamid Raza, Pakistan army’s un-armed combat and martial arts chief instructor, told AFP.`` (www.dailyitmes.com.pk)

roohi #36
I know what you are talking of. People sometimes talk to me slowly and loudly in English to make sure I understand what they are saying:). But in NJ, aam janata is generally less ignorant. Lately I have been hearing more about how jobs held by Americans in the US are going to Indians in India!

Re the coverage on Pakistan. Ironically, just today Pakistani Ambassador Maleeha Lodhi appeared on CNN`s Late Edition in a farewell appearance. I have seen her often on TV, and almost always without an Indian invited as well to offer counterpoint to the Pakistani point of view! Maleeha Lodhi was recently awarded something like a `Woman Ambassador of the Year` award and that was covered by the mainstream media too as was her return to Pakistan. And when Musharraf went live with a speech to the nation in Pakistan in May/March?, a large portion of it was carried live by the news channels here in the US too! Thats never happened for any Indian leader.

But IMO, some people are geared to be always unhappy. In her choice of an anti-India focus, sarwari is only following in her seniors` tradition. Even in a new newspaper like the Daily Times, senior journalists are often unable to wind up their columns on any subject without a dig and a poke at India and Indians.

Dear Sister Aisha,

I agree with you..Pakistan doesn`t need us. We need it.

With all its fault its still ours and I can still breathe as Class 1 citizen there.

Problem is that so called INTELACTUALS which provide solutions don`t understand that it needs sacrifice to get your country on the road of success, not just speeches.

All educated lot come here and strive to get green card and then Passport. That`s ok. I don;t mind that, but we are choosen ones, as I see it and we are more responsible to improve situation in Pakistan.

So we should start doing something at our part.

It will surely bring change.

Tomorrow someone else will lie, that more than 80% of Karachi is a slum. Baffling me if they know what 80% of 14 million is? And if their definition of slum includes a dish to watch Indian movies. A week latter some high level delegate will insist the UN resolutions are invalid. A month latter some other world leader will be forced to backtrack he isn’t sure if Al-Qaida is in Kashmir. A year latter, I will still be talking to the computer and TV screen, and life will go on. Pakistan will remain. As a great friend of mine said, Pakistan doesn’t need us, we need Pakistan. I’ll keep hanging on.

Hi All.

Its been a while. Its usually a `take it or leave it` thing for me. But this time I do apologize if I offended anyone. I was typing directly into the chowk subscription box, I had a bad day. The reason I still sent it, was because most of most useful rules of life have been born out off an angry, but honest snapshot of time.

Somehow I just missed Pakistan a lot, unbearably. I do not classify myself as any ethnicity or class within the US. Nor am I advocating for a marginal lot called the Pakistani-Americans. (Arundhati Roy`s Sofa-Bed kind of thing)...I am only a traveler through this place. Waiting to get back to Pakistan, where I have never felt more free. Writing what I see in the process.

Thank you, Ras, Eklavya, and Umer, others...

-Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

Romair,

{{I think terrorists in Pakistan are in big are in big trouble now}}

You know, this is one of the rare ocassions where I agree with you 100%...

Truth be told, Paki women are ferocious, when provoked...not physically, but ``mentally``:). Another thing, the more educated they are, the less likely they are to take any crap from men:)

..Now if you train them in martial arts as well, those terrorists dont stand a chance....

They have a very strict code of ehtics...manners are very important... ESP to fundos...its VERY RUDE to hit a woman back...those hijackers will give up in a second...

Krashid,

Welcome back! kahaan gayab ho gaye?! guess what?...my hindi has improved since I came to Chowk...who knows, maybe in a while I may even understand some of your eloquent urdu:)

After reading this article, the author (as in her previous works & interactions) comes across as having a chip on her shoulder about India..

Why the heck does Pakistan have to compare with India all the time? On one hand Pakistan is still struggling to define its own identity other than it being ``not-India``.

Thats fine & dandy...as an Indian American, I give your endevor my best wishes... but your job is going to be much harder if you spend some much of your mental processes comparing yourself to India..

Ayesha,

Predictably I didn’t quite get your point, but I do sympathise with your irritation at being constantly asked where you are from in India. Believe it or not, quite a few people on hearing my name and learning that I’m Indian ask a variation of “but if your family is Muslim why aren’t you Pakistani?”.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but how many (free) modern history and geography lectures can one give in one day? Hope the book under your arm works. (Also, we are not THAT bad, really, you mustn’t let it put you in a bad mood. I no longer get offended when asked why I am not Pakistani.)

Zafar

Reply Soundmeister # 35

Ah Wadala! The true Mumbaikars will correct me, I’m sure, but Wadala is actually a euphemistic name for a locality in Bombay called Antop Hill.

What’s the difference?

Well, nobody has heard of Wadala, but Antop Hill is constantly in the news (Three kidnapped in Antop Hill, Antop Hill raid yields fifty crore in counterfeit dollar bills, Killer Hooch slays sixty-seven at Antop Hill bar, etc. etc...you get the picture).

My cousin actually got married in Antop Hill (though of course we all called it Wadala). I had no idea that it was an adda of TamBrams.

Regards

Reply Roohi # 36

“What I don`t get (as usual) about this young person is the passion with which she dislikes being associated with India. Is it because she is in the media business and therefore has to deal all the time with the stereotyping of Pakistanis, promoting the Pakistani world view, their confusion with Indians etc. ? Or is this common to most Pakistanis ?”

Have a heart, jee, it’s not that dissimilar to the reactions Canadians have on being confused with Americans…And the Nepalis/Sri Lankans/Bangladeshis are not that thrilled when thought to be Bharatvaasis either, no…

Reply Umer Murtaza # 37

“Many of the replying posters are way past their sell-by-dates…”

What y ouare say, we are Christmas Cak, haiN? Ia mnot willingot be calling Christmas Cak, ok, Ia mnot Christain parson.

I am STALE JALAYBEE!!!!! Donot forgetting!

Thisi s finalwarn.

(Deepka is Christams Cak!!! Deepka I sbig jake.)

Reply Godot # 38

“I`m quite sure the author of this article is that ubiquitous 12-head. One can tell that by not only how poorly this article written, but its lack of focus on a central idea. Poor grammar, bad command of the English language, the content that makes no sense, and the clueless author: the hallmark of the 12-head.”

Godotbhai! Plzx!

“This article belongs in the garbage can. Its lack of intelligence should not offend anyone. It`s not worth a serious discussion.”

Ia m think you arebe ing litle unkindness, no? Ayeshga is onlys illy, shei snot nastiness like Deepka, a lsoshe is proper Muslimah, namazi, support Kashmira nd Filasteen, etc. Yoush ould be respact.

Don ot worrying Ayesha,m Godotbhai onlyi smaking jake. Keepon write, ok!!??

TALE OF TWO MEN,

Once up on a time long long ago an indian named Ganguly migrated to the US. He studied hard, worked hard and today is an expert on indian affairs in the US. Aysha reviles at his fame.

A few years after Ganguly migrated, a wealthy pakistani went to study at the London School of Ecnomics. After getting a masters degree, this man secured a job in Delhi for a british company. There he masterminded the abduction and murder of a few tourists. He was arrested and was serving prison term. Again usinh his skills managed to organise a hijacking and got himself freed as ransome. He returned to his home country where he masterminded the killing of an american reporter. Today he faces deathssentance. There are millions of pakistanis for whom this man is a hero. His name is Omar Sheikh.

In the value system of pakistan what he achieved is spectacular. His achievements are spectacul;ar compared to that of Ganguly who is known by less indians than Omar by the pakistanis.

Aysha not in touch with the reality of pakistan cannot wtite about the Omar, a true pak hero, instead slings mud at Ganguly. Aysha it time to accept the pak heros, makes connections to the true pak values. Bashing Ganguly cannot lead pakistan, praising Omar can.

You obviously havent been stuck next to old people on a long-haul flight. They would be very interested in Junoon : ). Anyways Corporate America cares about only one thing - making money. It doesNT care about Pakistan or India or SriLanka. Which is ok and how it should be. Frankly can you differentiate between a person from Herzogovina and Bosnia? Can you tell who is from Mainland China or from Raiwan? Do you know where Bulgaria is? Do you know when they gained independance? Does it matter to you and me - not really!! So why label them only ignorant. Face it to them we are all - much as I hate to say it - brown sub-continental dwellers.

And on another note - this probably belongs elsewhere but - everyone must must see Leela. I have never seen such a wonderful/subtle/graceful movie. It was very well made.

UmerM

#37

Way to go pal! You new crop of 20 somethings Pakistani descent that has graced Chowk (though you yourself is a vetran), like Drumz , fawad & you are like a breath of fresh air.

You guys are willing to challenge the usual Indo-Pak hate propaganda & call a spade a spade. Its very nice to see young people who are fair & willing to question prejudice from both sides & think independantly.

There was a time when sarwari & ylh were the norm, not an exception. I didnt have a problem with them being proud, patriotic Pakis or muslims...but they always had to diss indians, no matter what the topic was.

Ylh, in particular, has this one-dimensional obssession how Jinnah was way better than Gandhi & how Pakistan is better than India. He is in total denial that both Jinnah & Gandhi are frikking anachronisms in their countries today. He just brushes it off with ``inshallah Pakistan will return to the true path of Jinnah``. Its no wonder why Indians loooved to provoke ylh & he would promptly oblige Chowk with his hysterical masterbations, which would then crescendo into a huge shower of ``come`` upon all of us...yuk!:)

Leaders of India & Pakistan constantly invoke the memories of their respective ``fathers-of-the-nation`` & then promptly take a crap on their vision. Truth be told, if Jinnah or Gandhi were alive today, they would happily opt to comit suicide, when they see the paths their respective nations are actually taking...

Sarwari is the female version of ylh...a tad bit more civil & mature, but has the same chip on her shoulder. It used to be so obvious, that Chowkies automatically became matchmakers because they thought as one entity.

Man, the two of them would make a great husband & wife team..the way they think & act....

This is a perception of realities through a sensitive young impressionable & student of media advocacy lobbying & patriotism of A.F.S.

Look at the unanimous herd mentality of Hindians from Arjun_m to all inclusive Sadna have a knee jerk reaction of DENIAL ,perhaps even without reading the scathing each line of this article.When dont see even one dissenting voice i(metaphorically Eklavia is exception)among more than dozen hindians attack on Sarwari.....

I am but to conclude that the line is divided not on basis of truth & lies but Hindian `mera bharat mahan` childish slogans.I can invoke or rather provoke them to frenzy of emotional hyperbole, speaks of there irrational religousity enhanced by citizenry & madly fanatic patriotism

[UP]

Militants seek Muslim-free India



Burhan Wazir reports from Gujarat on an explosion of violence, nationalism and Nazi-style politics and its result: 2,000 killed and 100,000 homeless

Observer Worldview

Sunday July 21, 2002

The Observer

At the elegantly simple home of Mahatma Gandhi in Ahmedabad, the bustling capital of Gujarat state, a museum eulogises his contribution to the founding of India. Gandhi`s clothes, books, journals and photographs line the walls. Outside in the freshly watered gardens the mango trees are in full bloom. One journal contains Gandhi`s simple denunciation of violence: `The science of war leads one to dictatorship. The science of non-violence alone can lead one to a pure democracy.`

More than 50 years after his death at the hands of a nationalist militant, Gandhi would find India unrecognisable. In the past five months his home state has been stunned by religious violence that shows few signs of fading.

India`s worst religious violence since the 1947 partition was sparked at the end of February when 57 Hindu pilgrims were killed in the alleged torching of a train carriage by Muslim militants in Godhra. Hindu militants sought a swift revenge.

Since then, massacres by Hindu gangs have become commonplace. In five months, more than 2,000 Muslims have been killed and more than 100,000 displaced, congregating in squalid camps around Gujarat.

The state is in turmoil. On Friday, only hours after the state`s top elected official, Chief Minister Narendra Modi, resigned and dissolved the legislative assembly to seek a fresh mandate, at least two people were killed and eight others injured when police opened fire to disperse rioting mobs. In recent months Mohdi had come under attack for his delayed response to the killings. His resignation was eclipsed, however, on Thursday when 70-year-old Muslim scientist Dr A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, an unrepentant nationalist and the father of India`s nuclear missile programme, was elected to the largely ceremonial role of President.

The violence has been linked to the rise of extremist Hindu groups such as the Association of National Volunteers, or the RSS - a khaki-clad nationalist paramilitary sect formed in the Twenties - and its offspring, the World Hindu Council, or the VHP.

Gujarat is one of the few states in India controlled by the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party. The state has been described as a `laboratory for Hindu fascism`. Since rising to power in the mid-Nineties, the BJP has aggressively pursued a pro-Hindu agenda.

It has also backed the construction of a temple in Ayodhya, where Hindu nationalists destroyed a mosque in 1992. Several members of the present Cabinet, including the Indian Deputy Prime Minister, L.K. Advani, were present at the demolition.

The RSS and the World Hindu Council, described locally as `Saffron Warriors`, have one clear aim: Hindu expansion by mass conversion. The militants believe that India was once an empire of 75 countries stretching from Cambodia to Iran.

They have introduced textbooks that convey former Hindu glories, and they propagate the myth of an India under siege from native Islamic militants. The RSS also lobbies to reintroduce the traditional names of cities like Mumbai, until recently Bombay.

`The situation is getting out of control,` says Arvind Sisodia, vice-president of the VHP in Gujarat. A passionate advocate of the Hindutva or `global Hindu conscious ness`, Sisodia is a middle-class worker at the Life Insurance Corporation of India.

`In Gujarat, the Muslims own all the shops; they are involved in illegal trade,` says Sisodia. `And Muslim boys steal our Hindu girls and marry them. So the situation is unbearable.`

In the days after the first killings in Gujarat, the VHP distributed leaflets asking Hindus to pledge a boycott of Muslims - including refusing to be taught by Muslim teachers and ensuring sisters and daughters did not fall into `the love-trap of Muslim boys`.

`It is up to all Hindus to make sure that we restore India to dominance,` says Sisodia. `Hinduism was once the dominant faith. Muslims have to learn to adapt. Otherwise, it will be dangerous for them. We don`t want them here.`

A few days after the deaths at Godhra, on a humid morning in an inner-city enclave of Ahmedabad, around 20 men marched up to the Indian flag and offered the Nazi salute. This was a training camp, or shakha, run by the RSS. There are about 40,000 camps scattered throughout India and informal ones abroad for expatriates.

The men, many of them in their thirties, are middle-class professionals - employees of Ahmedabad`s bustling industrial community. India`s middle classes are the keenest recruits to the RSS - drawn by fears of Islamic terrorism and of Westernisation amid a crumbling national economy.

In a fashionable Ahmedabad gated community lives Vijay Chauthaiwale, a microbiologist. Over lunch, with the World Cup playing on a satellite channel behind him, he explained his attraction to the RSS: `We are a very modern family,` he said, `but I feel that the more we move towards the West, the more likely we are to lose our Hindu values.

`Gandhi would not have understood,` he said. `He was an old-fashioned man with old-fashioned ideas. No one believes those things any more. The world has changed. And for Hindus to survive, we have to protect our culture and our way of life.`

For middle-class families such as Chauthaiwale`s, the Indian secular experiment has proved disastrous. The country`s Muslim population - now 11 per cent - is seen as a primary threat. `Where do the allegiances of the Muslims lie?` asked Kaushik Mehta, general secretary of the VHP in Gujarat.

He pointed to an enclave of Ahmedabad dubbed `mini-Pakistan` for its madrassahs, or Islamic schools. `We can`t allow such places to exist. They train terrorists. Muslims have to integrate. If they refuse to, we`ll be forced to make them. Or they can leave.`

For the 100,000 Muslims in squalid camps around Gujarat there is no such escape. In nearby Pakistan, India`s Muslims are viewed as traitors who betrayed Pakistan after partition. And now the Muslim camps are being shut down, casting their occupants into the streets and into the hands of Hindu extremists.

Most are fearful of returning to their villages. `They can`t go back because they face death threats,` said Father Cedric Prakash, director of Prashant, a human rights group in Ahmedabad. `The fanatics have all the power.`

More violence seems inevitable. At the end of February, Anjum Bana escaped her village in Panderwala with her six-week-old daughter. As Hindu militants torched the village, she hid in the forest. `There was nothing to eat or drink for three days,` she said. `I could hear people shouting RSS slogans all around me. And my child was dying. I know I can`t go back.`

The hawkish former Chief Minister of Gujarat, Narinder Mohdi, however, is unconvinced. In the early days of the rioting, as the body count escalated, Mohdi famously said Gujarat`s Hindus had shown `remarkable restraint`. Shortly before resigning on Friday, he said: `There is no problem with people returning back home. If they don`t want to go, they should be forced back. They have to go back.`

In a shabby camp in a graveyard in Ahmedabad, residents have taken to organising a night-time watch. `They know that once we are on the streets we are vulnerable. I can`t understand it. I have lived with Hindu neighbours for 40 years, and there have never been any problems. Now those same neighbours have turned on me. And no one will look after us.`

· Burhan Wazir presents `Unreported World: Saffron Warriors` on Channel 4 on Saturday at 7.40 pm.

The best global coverage

Observer Worldview

This week`s international news

The battle for India`s soul

09.06.2002: Luke Harding: Which way now for India?

03.03.2002: Gujarat riots: Police took part in slaughter

Kashmir crisis comment highlights

10.02.2002: Muzamil Jaleel: My lost country

02.06.2002: `The people suffer in a dispute they cannot control`

12.05.2002: Luke Harding: War at the top of the world

09.06.2002: John Butterworth: No panic in Bangalore

09.06.2002: Charles Glass: Have we learnt nothing from Rwanda?

02.06.2002: Arundhati Roy: Under the nuclear shadow

02.06.2002: Luke Harding in Delhi: The only question: when do you leave?

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09.06.2002: Kashmir dispatch: Here we go again ...

Worldview highlights: best of Jason Burke

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[UP]

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umer ,

i agree totally. the key to life is live and let live. i think the best is to view all people as human beings........i have racism in me no doubt like when i see a paki girl and any nonpaki , im always thinking she couldnt get a paki guy but hey its not my problem and i shouldnt think that way!!! but i guess i dont want to be obsessed about india i just want to viewl them as people who are related and yet different from me who i can learn and be at peace with and yet still be me ............indians like shankar help who acknowledge our separate identity and are comfortable with it ..........i wish there were more indians like him ......

im heavily nationalistic like ylh he grew up in pakistan i didnt my little brother couldnt give a rat`s arse about the country i do for some reason i guess cuz its such a noble idea .......a country where principles not blood ties matter......where faith is the common bond not race.........thats the real reason i like pakistan and i read dawn every morning although i have never lived there......i dont know its something mystical yet so repulsive about pakistan .......its like a part of me but its not.........i dont know man im rambling

anyway i wish for peace and understanding between all south asians ........one day may there be a south asian union one day w/o visas and borders and hatred and riots and ideologies ,,,,,,,may the subcontinent achieve its destiny as a superpower ...........may be able to visist new delhi and say this is home may shankar be able to visit lahore and say this is home

anyway

peace

Anika Zaidi #56

You are absolutely right. The indians are full of

[quote]

frenzy of emotional hyperbole, speaks of there irrational religousity enhanced by citizenry & madly fanatic patriotism

[end-quote]

This explains why only indians use islamic terms

as forms of denigration on this list. This also explains why indians are always whining and complaining about the ``other`` people getting ahead. After all these foolish indians do not realize that you have to pay your dues and work hard, sometimes even be treated less than fairly, before people will recognize your worth.

Stupid indians, no wonder they will never achieve anything or reach any higher goal.

Zafar #50

``Have a heart, jee`` - if you say so, jee ...

Sounds like from Aishas recent comment that it was more of an emotional outburst in a moment of doubt and despair ... she has an ``indian friend`` as per the article after all ... so she can`t think we`re ALL bad (i hope).

As I read these posts, it occurred to me that the tension and carping between India and Pakistan can be characterized as a case of sibling rivalry. India is the big brother or sister who had a head start of several years, is older, bigger, and somewhat of a bully to the younger sibling, Pakistan. Its talents and abilities already established, India also takes on the identity of the ``good child`` in order to win the approval and appreciation of its parents - Mai Baap? because of a general feeling of insecurity and jealousy upon the arrival of the younger sibling.

In the meanwhile, Pakistan, younger, scrawnier, has to resort to more extreme measures to attract the attention of its parents. It resents the monolith-type qualities of its older sibling and wants to desperately break away from the mold and establish a separate identity for itself. It plays the role of the rebel as it knows it can`t really supplant the role that the older sibling has already claimed for itself. It derives a great deal of satisfaction out of bugging and irritating the older sibling, who then goes running to Mom and Dad about how mean and bad the younger one is being.

Both siblings are intensely competitive with each other, almost obsessively so, and if they would just relax and chill out, each would realize that it has its own unique perspective and place in the world...

All this begs the question, ``When are the two children going to finally grow up and get out of the house?!!!!``

Anika Zaidi #56
I forgot to mention the Time Asia cover stories on Pakistan and Musharraf which were published just last week.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/1101020722/story.html

arjun_m,

For Pakistan to benefit from any of the riches from Central Asia, ESP natural gas, it has to make peace with India. Secondly, anybody investing money in a gas pipeline that runs through Afghanistan is taking one helluva risk.

Its easy to talk about building a pipeline. This pipeline, which carries inflammable gas, has to run through 1000s of miles of perhaps the most ``lawless`` rugged terrain, where the rule of the law depends upon the whims of the local warlord. Even without any military experience, I know its extremely easy to sabotage or blow such a pipeline. How the HELL can a consortium or country guard every INCH of this pipeline is BEYOND me?!

All someone has to do is to pay a local faction or a rival tribe. For the right price, they will only be too happy to blow it to smithereens. So not only does the consortium have to risk money in the cost of putting it up; but they will have to pay ``tax`` to every single warlord that pipeline traverses through, to ensure the gas will flow through it, without any interruptions.

This ``strategic depth`` in Afghanistan, to improve Pakistan`s economy is too risky a venture..if you ask me:(..probably a mirage..

Umer #37,

excellent post

shankar # 47

``After reading this article, the author (as in her previous works & interactions) comes across as having a chip on her shoulder about India.``

I think it`s a common malaise with all the Konkanis.She is also one like you :)))

Chew on that.Maybe...just maybe if you stop dissing India to please us (Pakis),even rsaxena

will forgive you one day:)

Regards.

Dear Sarwari,

Hah?!?! You wrote the article in the box and sent it off just like that??? Wow. You`re good.

I can`t believe it!!! I wrote a nice, shiny 7000 word (boring in the open university sense) essay on stem cell technology after ACT michigan had cloned a blastocyte at the 6-cell stage during late November last year. Can you believe it? The chowki fellas didn`t post it.

Unbelievable I tell ya. Un - bloody - believable:)

Umer M

roohi,

nice post. Its nice to see more Indian ladies on this forum..for a long time, only poor sadna has been holding up ``that end of the fort``...despite all my criticisms of sadna, I think she has done a pretty decent job, all by herself:) & she has been subjected to some VERY mean putdowns from some of the fundos here...

sadnaji,

I KNOW this is none of my business...but.. but..just in case youre single, & you go on a blind date...please dont go on & on & on & on sooo seriously like you do in your posts..you`ll BOMB,.. BIG TIME.. no matter how good looking you are!!:)

OK, now that i`ve given you my unsolicited advice..instead of collecting my usual janitorial psychiatric ``fee``...i think i`ll just run like HELL:))

MISRA-P #61

HERE IS YOUR ROLE MODEL THAT YOU HINDIANS ADVISED AFS TO FOLLOW.JUST B/C MR.GANGULY IS A PROFESSOR IN OTHER WORDS TEACHES IN ONE OF A UNITED STATES COLLEGE ...A MATTER OF SO MUCH PRIDE THAT DEFENCE MINISTER FERNANDES,TAKES HIM AROUND TO SHOW THE KARGIL .

DOES THAT PROVE ANY THING DOES THAT MEAN THAT MR.GANGULY IS NOT A LIAR ? DOES THAT MEAN THAT HIS COUNTRY IS NOT LIEING?

DOES THAT MEAN THAT B/C HE IS A TEACHER WE PAKISTANIS LIKE HINDIANS MUST FALL DOWN ON HIS FEET & KISS HIS BUTT LIKE I HAVE SEEN HINDIANS DO BUT NEVER ANYOTHER CULTURE??????

I THINK IDOLATORY IS IN THE VERY BLOOD OF HINDIAN CULTURE .STARTED WITH WIND, FIRE & WATER NOW $$ or LAXSHMI



http://www.telegraphindia.com/images/bullet.GIF

CHRONICLE OF UNDECLARED WAR

http://www.telegraphindia.com/images/goto_top.GIF



FROM SUJAN DUTTA



New Delhi, July 22:

When Sumit Ganguly returned last month from an army-sponsored trip to Kargil and Drass, his ears were still ringing from the boom of the big guns.

For Ganguly, professor of Asian studies and government at the University of Texas at Austin, it was his first exposure to the battle at the front since the Indian and Pakistani armies had been mobilised.

But Ganguly has been writing on India and Pakistan wars. His latest work, Conflict Unending: India-Pakistan Tensions Since 1947, just published by Oxford University Press, is advertised as ?The only full-length study of Indo-Pakistani tensions?.

Ganguly was taken to Kargil and Drass by the army to carry out research for yet another account ? this time probably official ? of the 1999 Kargil war.

?I?m not sure the war has ended,? he says, the ringing in his ears robbing him of peaceful nights.

It will be sometime before the full story of Operation Parakram ? the mobilisation of the armed forces since December 2001 ? is known. But the wages of no-war no-peace with Pakistan are now beginning to be calculated.

Defence minister George Fernandes has told Parliament that 1,368 Pakistani soldiers and civilians are assessed to have been killed in firing on the Line of Control and across the International Border since December 18 and at least 762 militants have been killed by the army and the Rashtriya Rifles between January and June this year.

Add to these figures the number of Indian soldiers killed in the firing (no official toll given), their families killed in militant attacks and the number of lives lost in accidents (mine-laying mishaps and air crashes during operational sorties).

Despite this, the current stand-off will not make it to the history books as a war, though at least one battle ? Kargil in 1999 ? between India and Pakistan has accounted for probably just a third of the total casualties during the period of Parakram. And it is not yet over.

General Pervez Musharraf, inaugurating the ?biggest? tri-service wargames ?Sabit Qadam II? in Rawalpindi last week, claimed that war did not break out because of the strength and the capability of the Pakistani armed forces. ?Our forces are capable not only of defending territory but also of taking the battle to enemy territory,? Pakistani newspapers quoted Musharraf as saying.

In Conflict Unending, Ganguly writes this is just the kind of ?false optimism? that has often clouded Islamabad?s calculation of the costs and benefits of warring with India. Ganguly?s work is a compendium of facts on the four major wars that India and Pakistan have fought, a timely reference in the current context, written in a racy style that slots it short of an academic book but above a journalistic account.

While it does point to a basic flaw in Pakistani strategic thinking, it glosses over, for the most part, the lacunae in Indian military tactics.

That is what Ganguly will be examining in his next work on the Kargil war and its aftermath.

SHankar/Umer:

Individuals are in search of self. MOST use crutches to help define who they are (to function in society). The weakest among us let their crutches BECOME their identity (not aid in its becoming). You can find these types out by asking who they are. If the answer after ``I AM`` is a nation, race, religion or anything external, the person is weak.

Such people are too pathetic to stand up on their own two and cowardly feel more secure by aligning themselves with a larger group of idiots.

I dont know about u 2 but I dont give a fukk about the pulse of islam/hindusm/india or whatever. Nor about these internet sheep complaining about how ruff their lives are.

Howz anyone gonna write ``What it means to be me in Corporate America?`` when there`s people living in slums?