The Riverbank

re hamid_81 #62:

Dude: Get a chill pill. Having a sense of humor is obviously not on the menu at Temple.

Your thesis about the superiority of the west is not going to win you the Nobel prize. Put yourself in the shoes of someone living lets say in the year 800 AD. At the time, the Muslim hordes were on a roll and the whole discovered world was ripe for the picking. The Muslim armies were knocking at the doors of Vienna and the French empire-the epicenters of the Western civilization today. It all fell apart in a few hundred years.

Who knows what will happen even in the next 50 years. The forces of migration will change America and other western nations in ways we can`t imagine. Whether western ideals of democracy and tolerance be able to tame the masses or as post Sept 11th events show, some of their limits will be breached...who knows?

Talking strictly about Pakistan, I couldn`t agree more with you that the future is dark. But would I go as far as to declare a victory for the west as Fukuyama predicts in `End of History`, I don`t think so. Western ideals are winning becuase they have been flexible enough to accomodate the changing times. Will they continue to remain flexible in the face of new obstacles? I hope so but are there any guarantees, I am afraid not.

later

-sac

Sac:

I can take reform school. It is people like you who should be sent there with me. People like you have brought Pakistan to this stage where it is all down hill from now and people like you will be the reason it is going to get destroyed. Try to understand the truth. The west is better and there is nothing you can do about it. Pakistan is a third world country with no future if it stays the same way it is now. The west is controlling the whole world. It gives food to Pakistanis. We eat what they give us. Think rationally. I think people like you are just going to sit on your butts and see Pakistan going down the drain, while people like me would be the ones actually doing something. And yes! Motherland will have to wait. Motherland will always wait but in vain. I don`t think any Pakistani who is earning good and have a peaceful and nice life would ever opt to come to a third world, messy country like Pakistan. We have been losers, we are losers and we will be losers only because people like you don`t have the power to undersatand and analyse the truth and ruffle your feathers at the slightest hint of criticism. But trust me you are the one who is one of the losers. The west is one of the winners.

May be there is a lesson for Chowkies here,NEVER DISCUSS RELIGION SERIOUSLY & BE CARRIED AWAY EMOTIONALLY IN IT !!!

Not only that pplz still believe in after life but going to heaven hopefully .

Heaven-or-hell argument ends with shotgun slaying



An argument over who was going to heaven and who was going to hell ended with one Texas man shooting another to death with a shotgun, police said Monday.

The man charged in the slaying is a corrections officer.

Johnny Joslin, 20, was allegedly shot by Clayton Frank Stoker, 21, on Sunday. The two had spent Saturday night bar hopping with two other men in Fort Worth, about 40 miles (65 kilometers) northeast of Godley.

Johnson County Sheriff Bob Alford said a witness who was the designated driver for the group told police the four men were sitting at a table outside a trailer park after their night on the town and began arguing about religion.

The talk became heated when the subject turned to who would go to heaven and who would go to hell.

Stoker said he would settle the argument and went into a house and returned with a shotgun, which he loaded and placed in his mouth, Alford said the witness reported.

``The victim Joslin then took the gun out of Stoker`s mouth, saying, `If you have to shoot somebody, shoot me,``` Alford said, citing the witness report.

The shotgun went off, hitting Joslin in the chest and killing him.

Stoker, a Johnson County corrections officer, has been arrested and charged with first-degree murder, Alford said.

07/30/2002 06:45

© Copyright Cable News Network LP, LLLP. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of Cable News Network LP, LLLP.

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Hamid_81 # 50

``We live on IMF.``

Army lives on IMF, we just pay the loan with intrest.

Regards.

hamid_81 # 50

``We live on IMF.``

Army lives on IMF, we just pay the loan with intrest.

Regards.

Folks, stop beating up on poor developing countries for a change. This is funny and sad at the same time.

* * * * * * * * * *

Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 500 employees and has the following statistics:

* 29 have been accused of spousal abuse

* 7 have been arrested for fraud

* 19 have been accused of writing bad checks

* 117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses

* 3 have done time for assault

* 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit

* 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges

* 8 have been arrested for shoplifting

* 21 are currently defendants in lawsuits

* 84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year

Can you guess which organization this is?

Give up yet?

It`s the 535 members of the United States Congress. The same group of idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.

* * * * * * * * *

Amazing thing is that through system of checks and balances, USA still is the best place to live and thrive.

Nagnatheshwar,

You`re right. More than pulmonologists or nephrologists we need competent primary care physicians, both to deal with the commoner problems as well as to filter out those patients who really need specialist physicians. It`s heartbreaking having a hematologist (consultation fees; 700 rupees) treat an iron-deficiency anemia that a GP could have dealt with just as well for less than half the cost. (We do clinics at one of the Edhi Centres in Karachi where patients pay 10 rupees for both the consult and their drugs, provided the pharmacy stocks them, which they do half the time.)

Unfortunately though, community medicine seems to be looked down upon as a career choice for most young doctors. I`m sure there are many reasons for this and they differ from person to person. One reason could be that the specialities are seen as being more intensive, exciting work (cardiology with its angiographies and angioplasties, figures highly among career choices) as compared to the domesticated, plain-jane variety of medicine that family practise advocates.

Stuka:

My sarcasm may have been a little colored by your defence of the army elsewhere. Maybe it was a little too harsh. My apologies. BTW you are not the only offspring of a fauji on chowk ;)

I agree that there is a vast difference in the material well being of army families from both sides of the divide. Come to think of it I don`t ever recall meeting a spoiled brat from India with martial lineage. Like most Indian students they are highly motivated, self-made individuals. We on the other hand seem to have quite a few ``princes`` in every college town. It would be an instructive exercise to calculate how much the Pakistani army contributes to the well being of the US college industry by sending its sons (and lately daughters) to learn the latest in terms of numberless bank accounts and offshore shell companies!!

Ansari/ana:

I second your thoughts. My intention was to point out the uphill task a nation faces when it loses its most driven and ambitious citizens. All men(and women) unfortunately are not created equal.

anNy:

Hamid desperately needs reform school. Maybe the motherland can wait :)

Most of the Pakistanis writing on Chowk, with their professional green cards, graduated from these same schools and systems, that Mahmood seems fed up with.

People complain a lot about the quality of Pakistani universities. I suppose a lot of that is true. The reasons could be many.

However, in my opinion, the actual problem (at least in my profession) is the quantity, more than the quality. Why do I say that?

If one does a rough analysis of Pakistani IT people in Silicon Valley, or Pakistani doctors in the US, I think one would reach the following result:

Nearly all of them received their Bachelors level education in Pakistan. And nearly all of them have a higher education degree, from the USA. And nearly all of them are well-employed and highly successful.

The profile of the average Pakistani IT professional in Silicon Valley, seems to be, that he is middle class to perhaps slightly upper middle class (I see very few burgers and rich individuals from Defence etc., who make it in the US IT sector, on their own), a male, from Karachi, and more than likely a graduate of NED. And he will spend a lot of time complaining about the lack of quality of facilities etc. at NED.

Yet the interesting factor is that despite these lack of facilities, literally every NED grad. I see here has an MS from the US, and is doing well (please visit www.koshish.org ; a site set up by NED grads). He must have learnt something at NED (even with no classes, and no electricity etc.). It cannot all of have been just his intelligence and hardwork.

So, if through some magical event, NED level universities, can produce students who can get an MS from the US, at the drop of hat, and write super-sophisticated software, and compete well with students from any university in the world (I do a lot of hiring, so I know), then a long of string of NEDs across Pakistan would multiply those students. They won`t be able to speak English, with an accent, like many of the feudal kids or even the LUMS kids, but I am sure they will know their stuff, even if they learnt it on 386 machines in a lab where the fans don`t work.

We would hear a lot of complains from critics (many of them legitimate), but the fact of the matter is that while the quality maybe bad, it is still good enough to produce hundreds to thousands of successful professionals. It is the quantity of these professionals that needs to be increased, as well as the ability of the Pakistani economy to absorb these qualified kids.

Currently the only institutions in Pakistan that seem to be producing, regularly, IT folk, that make it to the USA, that I know of are: NED, UET, FAST, NUST, GIKI, LUMS. On a smaller scale, KU, PU, Hamdard, QAU, SZABIST.

So the whole country has only six departments which are producing good IT folk regularly (either due to the high standards of the universities, like NUST, GIKI or LUMS, or due to the high standards of the students like NED).

Compare this to the long list of medical colleges that produce students that get international level degrees (KE, Aga Khan, Dow, Rawalpindi, Army Medical, Abbotabad, Illama Iqbal, Fatima Jinnah, Khyber etc.)

Moral of the story, specifically for IT: Quality of the graduates produced from the major recognized public universities is good even though quality of the facilities maybe bad to very bad. Quantity needs to be increased a great deal, as well as the ability of the economy to absorb them.

P.S. Is it true that KU has the largest student body in Pakistan, and it now has more girl students than boys. And that the number of girls in Pakistan`s medical college is higher than the number of boys (someone told me KE or Dow is now 70% girls).

#: 40

Ansari

Sac,

``When 98% of the graduating class of Agha Khan Medical college(the college that attracts the brightest kids) ends up in the United States who is going to take care of the motherland?``



Ansari

In India also there are villages & small towns without allopathic Doctors ,but there are well established Post Graduate courses & teachings in Engineering & Medicine which is essential to receive back western trained professionals.

What can a pulmonologist or nephrologist or haemotologist do without teaching Post graduate M.D. M.S. institutions in Pakistan......

You need family practioneer /G.P. for which more m,edical college seats is the answer & for specialist tertiary care you need Foreign trained but you dont have the ``receptacles`` so to say to receive them

``Well, FCUK YOU, India...keep your Goddamned sanctimonious virtue & shove it where the sun dont shine... The happiest day in my life was when I took the US citizenship oath..``

Thanks for being so honest. Now at least we can understand where you`re coming from, when you your ``holier than thou`` posts about what India should do. You see, the deifference between you and I is obvious in the sense that you confuse the country with the establishment. I think that`s why you`re okay with seeing thousands of Indian soldiers die every year, and yet are sanctimonious about the country`s options to actually do something about it.

tahmed321, ``From all indications, Pakistan`s best days have yet to come.``

only if we weed out the fanatic mullahs, no country can strive and prosper under the shadow of religious extremism....only if we learn to assimiliate ourselves within the dynamic and progressive global culture.

even in the US, many Pakistanis lose themselves in their little circles and cliques and subsequently diminish their influence, no matter how educated they may be.

just look at Chowk, except for maybe Dr. Hoodhboy, how many Pakistani writers here have you seen writing about matters other than the same old sob story `my poor country` bull$hit and cryptic nonsense, especially lately?

we need to get over this defensive pseudo-patriotic attitude and we need to get over the `i`m in denial so i`ll talk about bullshit` attitudes. i`ve taken part in it too and have realized it`s worth nothing.

Mr.Shankar,

I am happy that you agree with what I have written. The same conditions exist in Pakistan. The son of the soil gets everything. And the INTRUDERS get nothing. And I am one of the INTRUDERS. The outcast. Although I belong to family which has money, but still, going to a government office and asking them to make me DOMICILE, would ashame me , because the person, sitting over there would ask me whether I am from one of the four provinces, or not. When my answer would be NO, he would look at me with disgust and hatred. Long Live the people`s democracy in Pakistan!

I would like to ask Mr.Romair to plzz tell me where he found grammatical mistakes in my article. I would love to correct myself.And yes I am being showered with stinky rose petal showing me the attitude of Pakistanis, which they have at the slightest note of criticism. We should all learn to realize our mistakes, and also realize that we are a third world country, barely able to keep up it`s head out of western loans. The west has been providing for us. We live on IMF. And still don`t realize that we are the ones who need to change and we are the ones who are wrong. We have to prove ourselves and by criticising and telling people that Pakistan is one of the most modern countries in the world we have gone nowhere and we will go nowhere. Keep up the same attitude guys and soon we will loose whatever little we have. For Good!

H

anNy #30 Good to learn that KU has improved so much past few years. One can say a glass is half full, and so make it a little easier to add more to it. Or one can say about the same glass that it is half empty, and so become a cynic.

While Pakistan has its problems, it also has lots of strengths that we tend to ignore. The most striking being perhaps the resourceful, hard working, down to earth population with a strong base of values. And among our middle and upper classes we have some of the most dedicated, intelligent and socially aware people I have ever come across. From all indications, Pakistan`s best days have yet to come.

urstruly #38 ``The size of bureaucracy in Pak is approximately 130-140 thousand. `` The figure is over 1 million, counting federal, provincial, local bureaucracies. And another half-million in uniform. Plus ever increasing hordes of pensioners. All on the back of shirtless, sweaty farm workers, and a tiny handful of entrepreneurs and knowledge workers. And what does the citizen get in return: a constant threat to life, limb and property due to internal and external insecurities caused by dysfunctional policies by those at the top of the bureaucracy and corrupt implementation by those at the bottom.

There is ample room for cutting government down to size so it starts functioning for the benefit of society: (a) To start, take out the provincial level (since cross-district issues are best dealt at the national level anyway, and of course there will be howls from the provincial politicians and bureaucrats who will have to find a socially useful means to earn an income in the real world), and you eliminate a vast chunk of duplicate adminstrative work. (b) Get rid of entire ministries in areas where the government has no business anyway (the religious ministry, e.g.). Also get rid of duplicate shariah courts and so forth. Not one man should earn his living by pretending to be a Muttawa. (c) Of what remains, focus government functions to strictly regulatory and oversight functions in others (education), and eliminate unnecessary , since potential for streamlining is vast in what remains. Redirect foreign and military policy to neutralize India, and the need for a vast military bureaucracy is gone.

Why doesn`t Mahmood apply for the Army, Navy or Air Force?

If he is not too interested in making a lot of money, but just wants an orderly disciplined life, free of prejudices, religious extremism, the military would be a good choice for him.

If he has potential, but no connections, he will still do alright in the military. He will have to get by on a motorcycle, and will not be able to send his children to private schools, but there won`t be too much nepotism.

I suggest Mahmood try for a visa to the US first, and try to get to the Western Hemisphere. But if he cannot even get into Karachi University, without connections, then how in the world will he reach the USA. He would have to do it illegally, in which he is breaking the law of another country, and becomes a part of the problems he is complaining about.

If he cannot get a US/Canadian visa, then Mahmood should take the CSS exam. That is very difficult to clear (based on Mahmood`s writing skills, which contain quite a few grammatical mistakes, I don`t think he has a chance). So he probably will not pass it. PAF is also very hard to get into. But he should be able to make it into the Navy or Army.

If, however, he has enough money to make it to the USA legally as a student etc., then I think he is quite rich, and is complaining for no reason, or to just write an article.

If he is not wealthy, and cannot make it into the military either, then I am afraid he is screwed, because the US isn`t going to give him a student visa, if he cannot show tens of thousands of dollars in the bank account, beforehand, to pay for the tuition.

In that case, I suggest, he attempt to try for one of the polytechnic schools where they are teaching hardware maintenance.

It he cannot even get into a polytechnic institute, then I would advise him to join politics, and hook on with BB or NS. But that now requires a BA degree, so his chances of success there are out, also.

He will then have to give it a shot as a small businessman. That is quite difficult, also. At that point, might as well try to enter the USA or Canada illegally.

Dear ANny,

Thank You for a really good reply. Let me again just tell you that you are very right when all those things, but we still have to go a long way. I agree that I am one of those who has gone and left their country, and I feel bad about it. But trust me when I say this that after living in USA for some time I don`t think I have a bad choice. But yes definetly, I would come back to give to my motherland, what others haven`t gievn it. I love my country as much as you do, probably a little more that is why i wrote what I thought was right. Whatever came into my mind and whatever were my true feelings, I just wrote them down. But yes you are very right. I should look at the bright side of things. But if I start looking at the good points, then how will we be ever able to correct our mistakes. And yes I do miss Paki food and apnay loog yaar. They are VERY COOL AND SET!!! :)

Would love to talk more with you. Is it possible for you to give me your e-mail address?

H

Trillium,

whats with the sarcasm, and what r u getting at?

Trillium

``

Maverik

What the hell? Did Temple lose its accreditation

or are you just using your big brother`s computer and pseudo?``

dude, what a wasted comment.

how r u even coming at it?

TAhmed:

Could you email me @ shortstopman@yahoo.com if you`re in the DC area.

Thanks, PM

Sac:

``For once your assertion is close to the mark.``

For once?? Err, okay..guess I can take it as a compliment, even though it is a bit of a stretch.

``The children of generals/Air marshals/Admirals obviously need to stay abroad to take care of all the ``rizq-e-halal``.``

Unfortunately, I have to reply to that because I am a progeny of one. I speak for myself, and the dozens of others, sons of Brigadiers, Major Generals etc, who have toiled as hard as the next person. I came for opportunity, not to look after any stashed abroad wealth. The same goes for the other fauji mundas.

I do see the point you make though, and agree in general. However, keep in mind that the status of Faujis is very different in India and Pakistan, with the former living on their salary and nothing else. Even the Tehelka scandal showed the politicians and IAS types getting money, and Faujis being fobbed off with bottles of whisky.

The fauj in India is the step-son of the establishment, for which I am truly thankful, notwithstanding my usual jokes about Army rule etc.

anNy jaan :)

[sac:

``When 98% of the graduating class of Agha Khan Medical college(the college that attracts the brightest kids) ends up in the United States who is going to take care of the motherland?``

i am ;)]

And I`ll be cheering you on!!! You go girl!

I was waiting for your response to HM because somehow I had this intuition that this would be your response. On the one hand I can see his side of the qissa, but then I know there are qissas like yours as well. It does us well to remember that not all of Pakistan has gone to the dogs (yet!), and that there are people in universities and other walks of life who are working towards change, and improving the quality of education and life there. The grass is not necessarily greener on the other side of the riverbank :-)

P.S. I think it is `cojones` rather than `cajones`.. ;)

Mr hamid mahmood,

You bought tears to my eyes when I read this article. It was eerie how I could identify with your feelings.

21 yrs ago, I was like that young man, standing on a riverbank in India (actually it was the Bombay seashore).. I was disillusioned with India`s disastrous socialism & its holier-than-thou hypocrisy. A deep sense of hopelessness & helplessness pervaded my classmates & I, who were being paid Rs 753/- a month for doing a residency in one of Bombay`s teeming hospitals & given a hole-in-the wall to live in. The system demanded 18 hrs/day of hard work, (a day off every two weeks), with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Ironically, being born a middle class brahmin, was a CURSE! Esp cause my dad was a General Practitioner, who had a hole-in-the-wall dispensary in a poor locality in Bombay, who had to work like a dog, to support a family of a wife, 4 sons & a set of aging parents. If I was born to dalit family, more doors would have opened for me & less hurdles would be placed in my path. Let me assure you, contrary to popular opinion, many ``dalits`` in my graduating class came from backgrounds similar or wealthier than mine.

If I told anyone that I wanted to migrate abroad out of sheer frustration, they would give me the feeling that I was a traitor to the nation, how I took advantage of inexpensive education & desert the country & sell my soul to America..``just for the money!!``. To add insult to injury, I was told that a REAL doctor should be a selfless social worker, who should BUST HIS BUTT to become a doctor & be happy living on Rs 753 a month to serve the poor. O yeah! to be poor & miserable in India was a VIRTUE!! LONG LIVE SOCIALISM!!

Doesnt matter that the Supreme Socialist Indira Gandhi & her sons were anything BUT socialists, in their pvt lives. Same with the so-called socialist politicians & their patriotic children!!!

To add insult to injury, these guys who criticised me, were either those who had ``khandani money`` or their fathers did very well because they had the right connections & broke about 10,000 laws to become wealthy! Y`see, in India..to go from rags to riches is ``theoritically possible``, provided you use a good amount of corruption & neopotism to reach your goal. Yeah..to live in poverty & eke out a living is a virtue for the OTHER poor dumb schmucks, that they preach to!

Welcome to America...& SCREW the people who are trying to make you feel guilty. In these 21 yrs, despite all the faults of America, I have NEVER EVER regretted my decision! I have encountered LESS prejudice in my personal & professional life than I ever did, in Bombay. Whatever I have achieved in America is because of my OWN personal merit...not because ``my dad knows so & so``! Nobody in America gives a DAMN that I`m this evil, parastic brahmin, because of the ``sins`` of my caste...or that I`m a ``non-Maharashtrian``.

Well, FCUK YOU, India...keep your Goddamned sanctimonious virtue & shove it where the sun dont shine... The happiest day in my life was when I took the US citizenship oath..

Sac,

``When 98% of the graduating class of Agha Khan Medical college(the college that attracts the brightest kids) ends up in the United States who is going to take care of the motherland?``

Though there is some truth to what you say, it really depends on your own personal priorities and the attitudes you grow up with. I know of some alumni who have come back and are doing an extraordinary job both for their patients and for the students at AKU. Though they might be just a small percentage of the total, the fact that they are here has made a difference. And somewhere to start from...

``Paksitanis do not pay tax`` is a myth desseminated by establishment. In my opinion per capita an average paksitani pays more tax than an American or an Europeon. These taxes are indirect taxes the VATs, the Octoroi, and sales tax that are deducted at (manufacturing) source and no government has felt a need to disclose it to common people. Some of the taxes on top of that, like toll tax, excise duties, and the gift of this government the notorious GSTs and PSTs are so obvius that they cannot be hidden. The tax structure is so unfair and so inhuman that in 1990-91 the cost of a sack of cement at the factory door was Rs. 3 (three, profit was roughly Rs. 17 ). At that time one sack was being sold at Rs. 80. So Rs. 60 was all taxes and duties. Similarly, a kilogram of sugar at factory gate was Rs. 0.30 at that time and it was being sold at Rs. 8 in the market. I dont know if it is a joke or a tragedy that people are still paying Rs. 0.35 per liter of gasoline as a East Paksitan flood relief fund (for the past 38 years)

All this money that Paksitnis pay through their nose (& ass) is gobbled up by military establishment, politicians, and pillaged by global soodkhors. Majority of people have no idea how they are being cheated, robbed, raped and made to dance like monkeys in broad daylight. I did not like this article because it holds people responsible for their misery- on the other hand the only fault of the people of paksitan is that they dont know. They dont have the awareness. I symapthize with the writer, at 21 how the hell he is supposed to know all this when the oxen and bullocks called Paksitanis older than him dont know.

The size of bureaucracy in Pak is approximately 130-140 thousand. THese are currupt people and the real cause of our misery. These people need reformed. Government MUST reduce its size and reform itself and not the people. Unfortunately it cannot be done as long as we are a slave nation. Pakistan still has to win its independence and soverignity from the tyrrany of the global soodkhoor and the haramzadas who represent their interest in our country. They have to keep a corrupt system in place to oppress us, to strip us off our dignity, and to humiliate us; to crush our souls. Beggars cannot be choosers. That is one hell of a river that we all have to cross hand in hand. This is aag ka darya.

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hamidm #26 So looks like you had a full summer in Pakistan, with all its culinary and libidinal attractions (admittedly, the latter involved solicitations from a male prostitute in your case, but that seems to have been thrilled you anyway), the under-tipped waiters, and the torso competing with the wooden leg for the next meal (none of these, particularly the last being mentioned in the Pakistan Tourism`s official website for some reason).

Hamid Sahib,

Well, its good to see you back here! I`m sure my fellow interactors will be showering you with stinky rose petals soon enough....but Hamid Sahib, no one is denying or disputing their ties to Pakistan, nor does anyone seem to take much pleasure in it`s difficulties. And under no circumstances should anyone assume that the US does not have its faults. As you pointed out with the complimentary come on you received in Pakistan, the same old exists everywhere....

hamid

my last post...not nust & g.i.k..iba & g.i.k? :)

``You have been just a student at KU. I have been born and brought up at KU. EIghteen years of my life I have seen professors pass students, at their homes b/c they bring the pile of papers back with them. I have seen things that you cannot even imagine. I can imagine the hurt you feel right now. I do that too. I also feel the hurt. For my people, for my country, for myself. But plzz tell me that if we donot bring these things out then how will we be able to make people understand that they are wrong? Please read this very calmly and reply.``

hi hamid

reading and responding very calmly :) and as i said previously, my apologies for any unnecessary nastiness...you say i have been just a student at ku while uve grown up there...iv not been `just` anything marra...i went there without any connection whatsoever, got in on my own, went to classes not knowing a single soul in those 10 thousand ppl, and iv gotten grades, good and bad, depending only on my acaedemic performance...corruption zaroor hae par most of it is blown out of proportion...while the good is not..what im trying to say is that while there is bad, there is a LOT of good...and this good comes not from merely complaining but also doing smthg...making an effort..to say pakistan has no proper institutions would be incorrect...nust and g.i.k are examples of what one man, just one person hamid, can do to turn around the future of thousands of young boys and girls...again to take ku as an example, the place was impossible to go to less than 10 years ago...my chaach had then gotten stuck in crossfire countless times in the very same place i hang out with my friends today...he has seen 2 dead bodies in the exact same place i ate biryani today..a place where no respectable family would send their daughter is today teeming with women, looks like a bloody girls college now..i fought endlessly to be allowed to go, 3 years later now my cousins and some friends are all getting admitted without any maslah whatsoever...howd the change take place? one man again...just last week political activity amongst teachers has been banned by verdict from a court...this is the first time such a huge danda has been maroed, howd it come about? one man had the cajones (thank you ana :) to take on the scum...he suffered lots of bad publicity, bohat demonstrations hoae, but in the end unkee (the teachers involved in politics within the university) take ho gayee..things have gotten better in the last few years, they will get even more better now inshaallah..durriya qazi had been proposing setting a fine art department for the longest time...if wouldnt come about because art shart kya hota hae bhai..but she`s one determined woman...today a very young ku fine art department under her is giving solid, quality art training at not even 10 percent the fee charged by indus n other such schools...they have problems too, abhi hee jamaatis crashed into the place on valentines and created such a big mess with such fervour, i was left chilled...but the people there picked up their trashed goods, belongings (literally) and smiling and laughing for the place is a dream come true for them, got started on making cheap tacky bright red hearts again..they wouldnt be able to study art ever were it not for this department...i know i sound all romantic and fired up but next time you are here take a peek there, the work being churned out there is as good as that anywhere else..so my dear hamid, once again, one person..i know of one very funny (enterprising actually) young woman a year junior to me who managed to get a teacher who had never in all her 7 years at ku taken more than 2 classes a week, take all her classes regularly...where there is a will, there is a way..youve heard aaaall of this before:).. overnight kuch nahin hogaa, we`ve to work our asses off if we want to see change hamid...if 20 year olds start giving up on the country, WHAT will become of it? dont under estimate your country, your institutions, your people..we do have our bad, but our good is stronger...the bad we have to fight..im getting all cliched and carried away now so ill stop yapping..just know that upar sae koee nahin aae ga to make a change..cribbing is a lot of fun, bitching even more...but getting off that butt and working to change smthg wrong, that requires like dr. abdul wahab once said, risking your life honor and job..you cannot ever reform, bring about a change just like that..if you have chosen to go abroad to make a life for yourself, more power, its your choice and a smart one too maybe...but dont put down pakistan and call it hopeless..it is home to a lot of people

ill look forward to your next article

take care

sac:

``When 98% of the graduating class of Agha Khan Medical college(the college that attracts the brightest kids) ends up in the United States who is going to take care of the motherland?``

i am ;)

Dear Ras sahib!

Thank You for appreciating my work. I am sorry that my matter could not impress you. But trust me that if I find anything positive in the current society I will definetly write about it. I do love my country, contrary to what alot of people at chowk think.

I would like to thank saminashah, Godot, Stuka, afsaryab, for encouraging me. I would be sending my second article very soon.

Thank You

Reply #: 23

Maverik

What the hell? Did Temple lose its accreditation

or are you just using your big brother`s computer and pseudo?

Reply #: 23

Maverik

What the hell? Did Temple lose its accreditation

or are you just using your big brother`s computer and pseudo?

Dear Readers,

Hi! I wanted to answer some of the questions raised by alot of my readers. First of all I compared Pakistan with the America. Why? Because I have been living in that country and have seen the best of it. And yes when I say that America gives all it`s citizens equal rights it is true. It is abetter country than us. Far more superior than us. What are we bragging about? We don`t have to anything to brag about, except, filthy roads, bunch of feudals, poor homeless and hngry people, criminals, killers, mullahs and every other evil that you can imagine. All I have done is shown you the true picture of your country!! It is not what I write that is wrong. It is our system that is totally gone! So instead of trying to shelter your country, come in the open, find out the problems and try to solve them. Before even trying to solve the problems of our country we should be able to identify them. That is what alot of you have not been able to understand. And yes the west is better than us. They have made themselves better than us. That is why what they say goes, and we are just a nation, going down the drain. Why are we not acceptng the facts? Because they are too hineous to accept. And it is true when I say this that I can park my car in Philadelphia city, without the fear of it being stole. Not in Karachi.Your car can get snatched any time.Yes I can go to the same grocery store and buy things as a white man does or a black man does. I bet 90% of karachiites cannot go to Agha market, and buy stuff. I am very right when I say this that our country is far from being modern developing country. And all of you know that it is true! I am thankful to

saminashah, Godot, for backing me up.

Welcome to CHOWK Hamid Mahmood!

Although I do not agree with much that you
have written, I still must say that you have written it well. It was a joy to read this
writing of yours.
Hope you are back with something a little bit more positive for us next time.

Ras

......a few days ago I was propositioned by a male prostitute in pakistan – it was exhilaratingly refreshing! .....it was refreshing to see that real ``pakis`` were going about the business of living while the ex-paks are crying into their starbuck’s latte and moaning and groaning on the chowk about the horrible hindoos and the even more horrible state of the homeland they have forsaken.....

......so now when we are not whining about kashmir and the great hindoo-zionist-american conspiracy against the ummah, we are complaining about NUST, GIKI, FAST and LUMS and how we couldn’t pass the entrance exam and ended up at temple or rutgers or purdue......my poor nephew is terrified that if he can’t get into NUST or get a scholarship to GIKI he might end up washing dishes at the student center at ohio state or miami.........with his mouth full of palaou and korma, the rector of one of these schools said, ``80% of our graduates end up going to america , to places like stanford and caltech and end up working for ge and microsoft`` ..... fool! ....so what does pakistan gain? ....another whiner on chowk?

......and where else can you go for dinner at midnight and ice cream at two in the morning......islamabad is catching up with lahore and karachi.....the food at the arizona grill is simply horrible – almost as bad as tgif and just as expensive ......I tried to leave a five hundred rupee tip on a five thousand rupee bill but my ba-pass sister was horrified and said `` in logon key damag kharab ho jain gay`` .....she is qualified to run in the october elections and thought a hundred was enough and used the money to buy everyone ice-cream at hot shots – better than ben and jerrys ......

.....sure, life is tough.....there were thousands of terrified kids taking the entrance exams and the one legged beggar at peshawar chowk now has to compete with the human torso who zooms around on a fruit-crate go-cart.......and on the crossing by the kutchery there is a beggar with no legs who gets around in a construction worker’s karanti (a big wok).....he rolls through the traffic at break neck speed and gets to see musharraf dirve by in his motorcade every day...... but he seems to be happy, as is the one-legged maulvi who sits in the shade apparently doing nothing – not begging or anything, just watching the traffic....

.......and who made rawal road – where is the money coming from to construct all these new roads? .....they are getting better than the roads in philadelphia......and to top it all, it seems a lot of afgahanis have left.....``Don’t worry, they will be back in a few months”, my brother tells me - he actually misses some of the kids who came around at lunch time every day, even though they stole the laundry and made off with the parakeets......

....so what is wrong with pakistan?....a lot - you can`t get eighteen year old macallan, but it is still home to a lot of people who haven’t given up on it like some of us on the chowk.......

........of course, I turned down the proposition and swore never to give a ride to a young man with a limp wave........but, never the less, it was refreshing............

Dear Readers,

I didnt know that Hamid`s father was a registrar in KU. I didnt read his post before submitting mine. So he may know more than I do. I do not know the bad or good the university except that I have many friends going there, and what they describe is in total conflict with what Hamid Mahmood has told us in his article. Sure, I heard of false mark sheets, but if thats true then why are the many politicians screaming as the government has posted a restriction of a graduate leader.

I can certainly take the criticism on my country, and it certainly has its flaws, but it doesn’t mean that you leave your country. If talents will leave their country for these reasons, then how come Pakistan will age like USA and become a better country.

I am in the same category as I left my country, and because of people like me and Hamid, we can only pray for good to happen in Pakistan.

ps. submitting this again as I dunno if my previous one was properly submitted.

I didnt know that Hamid`s father was a registrar in KU. So he may know more than I do. I do not know the bad or good the university except that I have many friends going there, and what they describe is in total conflict with what Hamid Mahmood has told us in his article. Sure, I heard of false mark sheets, but if thats true then why are the many politicians screaming as the government has posted a restriction of a graduate leader.

I can certainly take the criticism on my country, and it certainly has its flaws, but it doesn’t mean that you leave your country. If talents will leave their country for these reasons, then how come Pakistan will age like USA and become a better country.

I am in the same category as I left my country, and because of people like me and Hamid, we can only pray for good to happen in Pakistan.

Dear readers.

Mahmood is my friend. As a matter of fact, we go to the same university, Temple University, Philadelphia.

I want to inform you guys that Mahmood, Hamid himself went to a very prestigious A level school, for his early school education. He completed 12th grade from Pakistan, and since then he is living here in USA with his brother.

All his friends are aware of the fact that he never had to endure any hardship until he is here in United States. What he is talking about in his article may be the result of excessive news reading, and that’s all.

I want to lists some facts here.

I am living in the US now for over 4 years. I have seen racism. I have seen violence. I have seen a culture with no values.

I have even seen hatred in African Americans for white people and vice versa. I have seen Arabs beaten up. I can`t even describe all the faults in the American society.

Of course, people pay taxes here so you will see trimmed trees and green grass. Of course, education system is better here, but only because there is so much diversity and colleges are well funded. But that’s true only because of the citizens of this country. They pay taxes, respect the law.

I lived my early 18 years of life in Pakistan. I have seen all the students with good marks getting admissions in nice universities. I got admission in GIK because I had an A in my inter mark sheets, and not because my father was a General or a politician. I came to US for better education but it doesn’t mean that when I have the luxuries of life, I should be criticizing people living with poverty. I know about Karachi University, and its nothing like what Mahmood has described it. How come Mahmood knows about those facts when he hasn’t even studied in that university, unless he is among the people who sell the degrees themselves?

I dun want to be harsh to him, but his article has saddened me. He only listed the worst in that country. I could write a letter describing the worst of USA, and I can even back it up.

What happened to that poor girl in Jatoyi is because of the illiteracy in Pakistan. Nobody is caring about the fact that government of Pakistan is looking into the matter.

Did you know that every 4-5 minutes, a woman is raped in the United States of America?

I bet you didn’t. Recently in my neighborhood, a son killed his old mother for money.

And you are calling it the right side of the riverbank. USA is more than 200 years old. It had its black eras when slaves were sold here in auctions. It had civil war. Had its President assassinated.

If the citizen of Pakistan pay their taxes, respect the law, and throw garbage on the streets, and choose the best out of them as a leader, then Pakistan or any other country can be like the right side of the riverbank.

Hamid,

Insightful and disturbing article. I notice this pathetic trend with Paki`s from back home who get their feathers ruffled at the slightest hint of criticism...and yet would sell their mothers to come to the US. Inferiority complexes always glisten the most when seen with the inability to accept your (your country`s) flaws. From all that I`ve seen, Pakistan is a great place to live...provided that you have privilege. :) The same goes for anywhere in the world but third world countries are going through their growing pains so it`s more accute there. The US is far from heaven on earth. We have entirely too many John Rigas, Ken Lays, and Martha Stewarts running around to come even close to being celestial. ;)

sara

Interesting article by Nighat Majid in the Review section of Dawn re: the feminization of global politics.

Won`t post it here for you, but here`s the link

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/review/review7.htm

Cheerios!!!!

Ms anNy

Hi! I was very pleased to read a very critical evaluation of my article. Good to read that some one disagrees with me. You have been just a student at KU. I have been born and brought up at KU. EIghteen years of my life I have seen professors pass students, at their homes b/c they bring the pile of papers back with them. I have seen things that you cannot even imagine. I can imagine the hurt you feel right now. I do that too. I also feel the hurt. For my people, for my country, for myself. But plzz tell me that if we donot bring these things out then how will we be able to make people understand that they are wrong? Please read this very calmly and reply. And for your information I have been to all government offices, including the passport and KDA. I am a Karachiite and know this city like the back of my hand. I know KU better than anyone else b/c my father retired as the registrar in 2000.

Dear Mr.Bilal,

I have just gone to USA to study. Before that I was very much accustomed to the society in Pakistan and very comfortable with the norms. Then I went to a place much better than our country, and realized what Pakistan does not have. Then I came back to Pakistan on vacation and wrote this article.

I have alot of replies that came from the people. A lady wrote as to how good her KU is. Well I just want to tell her that my father has worked in KU for more than 25 years. He retired as the registrar. What I know about Ku no one does. NOne of my readers even have the slightest idea of what kind of a place it is. So trust me when I say that it is really a criminal joint. I also know that Black man did not have alot of rights in America not very long ago, but now he enjoys if not more then the same amount of rights as a white man does.

Re: hobbyty, #12

Bohat khoob, Mr hobbyty!!! I see, you want to keep the bath water and throw the baby out!!!

Hamid Mahmood,

As another interactor pointed out, this is a strong beggining for a young writer. Keep up the writing and keep reading; you are at the start of your writing journey.

Chowkies,

So why are we dumping on this young guy? Because he`s actually writing about feelings that he is entitled to? For those who complain that he is ``entitled`` in the second sense of the word, well, why not? He is exactly the young mind that will probably be used in less than altruistic manners by self serving factions in any country.

If Chowk is the place for intersections of Pakistani/South Asian dialogue, hopefully a young writer like Mahmood can provide his perspective and get the same respect that a writer like A. Sarwari can when she complains about India, the corporatization of America, and the marketing of ethnicity. It seems to me that Mahmood is writing about the marketization of religion in Pakistan. Perhaps it would serve us better to read and acknowledge that a great number of Pakistani-Americans are starting to percieve Pakistan in this manner. It seems that that is what is annoying some respondents the most.

Is this for real:

http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/24/top10.htm

8 young unmarried girls as compensation to set aside a murder conviction. I guess the men of the family own the women to be bartered away as they wish.

Assuming one fifth of the Mexican population has emigrated to the US and on average an immigrant earns $20,000 dollars annually over his/her earning years, we are talking about 6 trillion dollars worth of earnings flowing away from Mexico. No amount of foreign aid/investment can makeup for these colossal losses.

The biggest tragedy of the underdeveloped world is the loss of its infamous ``best and brightest``. When 98% of the graduating class of Agha Khan Medical college(the college that attracts the brightest kids) ends up in the United States who is going to take care of the motherland?

Stuka:

For once your assertion is close to the mark. In our parlance these elitists are called ``gaddi-nashins`` or heirs to the throne. They are feudals,industrialists or progency of otherwise white collar professionals like lawyers,doctors and bankers. The children of generals/Air marshals/Admirals obviously need to stay abroad to take care of all the ``rizq-e-halal``.

later

-sac

i hope you excell as a classical sitarist and a muscian.

...well said, shandana...we react because we care...and as long as we care, there`s always hope...(excuse the cliched phrase)...how`re you and the baby doing?...

Why does Mahmoud belive he is ``entitled`` to recieve a scholarship? Deserving? says who? Mahmoud does. Self serving, self righteous are notions Mahmoud is not familiar with.

Mamoud skips Pakistan and inthe West will get a scholarship in the States, without one iota of thought, that someone else, another ``deserving`` was deprived of that scholarship, ``hopelessness`` is not a riverbank in some country, its the content of an empty mind .

In the US Mahmoud will do 2 jobs and a part-time job on weekends and go to school - yet it will not occur to him to do the same in Pakistan - You see, Mahmoud is ``entitled`` - its his ``right``. In the US the likes of Mahmoud, will work hard, harder and smarter than the native born, the likes of Mahmoud will obey every law in the US, the likes of Mahmoud will call the police man, ``sir``, in the US, The likes of Mahmoud will pay every tax, sales tax, state tax, federal tax, in the US, The likes of Mahmoud will line up and remain in line patiently, in the US. Not in Pakistan, the likes of Mahmoud will do none of this in Pakistan; the likes of Mahmoud will complain that in Pakistan no one stands patiently in line, that no one pays taxes, that no one says ``sir`` to the cop - why should he? When the going gets tough, the tough get a goin, in the hope of gettin a groin.

ChowK Staff

Why have failed to put up my original post on this board?

My post is keeping with the rules specified by Chowk and its disappointing that Chowk equates editorial responsibility with censorship.

A sad article, no doubt, but reality for the middle class in a situation where there is no upward mobility. The early 1990s in India, before liberalization, there was a similar sense of hopelessness.

I have a hunch. The people who will criticize the author are the ones from privileged backgrounds. The ones who don`t have to stand in line.The ones who have not had to struggle. The ones who do not have to bear the humiliation of simply existing. Those elitists will call you names for giving up on your country, not realizing that they are the ones who never had a stake in it in the first place.

Whereas the black man may not be treated as well as the white man, the underprivileged in this country have far more basic rights than the ones back home. This article is not about Pakistan, it is about every country where the elite is a parasitic exploiter.

I hope you succeed, and don`t ever have to look back.

Go deeper, my friend. If this is a start, I must say it is strictly just that. Hope to see more of you.

re:

i nominate King Edwards Medical College as the ugliest place in pakistan rickety disgusting chairs nonexistant AC , a crumbling building and a witch of a physiology teacher..............

the education is good i guess.........i didnt stay too long to experience it !!!!!!!!!!!

Like Shandana, I also felt sad when I read this.

Having lived in the US as long as I have, I was struck by this sentence:

``. A place where a poor black man has the same rights as the white man. Heaven on earth.``

Ah..if this were only true. What Mahmood sahib calls Heaven on Earth still has a ways to go before a poor black man, or even a not so poor black man has all the rights that the white man does.

From your article, I see that you are currently living in US. I just wanna know whether you spent your youth here in Pakistan or you are in US right from your birth. your article reflects the things which are highlighted in media and there are many things are not reported and many things are given a western biased color by International news reporting companies (CNN, Time, Newsweek etc)

there are certain realities which are unique with this country and those realities may be the root cause of all the things you have mentioned.

A tale of despair, gloom, anguish and hopelessness. An excellent commentary on today`s Pakistan. For a 21 year old, this is first-rate writing. As convincing as if the writer is writing from experience. Finally, after a long time, we get an article at Chowk worth reading and pondering. Hope to see more of your work at Chowk. Good job.

slink

Reply #: 1

``...is it a futile dream to be succesful in pakistan?``

No. It is a feudal reality...

``Can I even lead a sane life in Pakistan? What will I do? Try to apply to a university for an admission? Which university? Karachi University? Huh!``

Mr. Mahmood

my karachi university is every bit as good as your pennsylvania shensylvania..why dont u take your huhs and go jump in that river of yours..oh wait! thats exactly what u did! i can understand your anguish, pain, disuillusionment but excuse me if i find it hard to respect any of it...Pakistan is this blah blah blah that too, aik baat tau batao ustaad...just WHO will make things better? uppar sae koee farishta ae ga? What right have you to complain if you have played no part in making things better? And if I`m being harsh, would you explain exactly what you have done that justifies this whine fest?

Lets take one example of your unfair portrayal in this article:KU. I`ve been enrolled for 2 years and yes things are bad in the administration, useless khaoos are all over the place, lotsa nepotism/favouritism, dangerous politics BUT the ugliest place in karachi? (havent been to the passport office have you?) for every 2 clerks who will take four days to make you a simple transcript, there is one who`ll do the job in less than 5 minutes also..for all the jamaati/mqm inclined professors who take 2 classes per semester,there are teachers in every department who will blow your mind my dear mahmood...when i say blow your mind, i mean blow your mind, a huge explosion followed by many others that will leave you breatheless..i will not get into details of what all these people risk to get through to us what they do...all the political bakwaas and frustration at the machinery is worth one class and im not overdoing it when i say this..ill be glad to take you...to get there as part of a daily routine you have to brave all the other ish that is part of public education in Pakistan...it requires faith in what is yours and the dream to see it better but most of all you need to be willing to put in a little of yourself to see it that way..the point all along being, dont judge so harshly..like all other things everywhere, we have our good and bad..ya tau help make it better or then zip it...i take strong offence to your calling KU an ugly place, the ugliest in all of karachi! walk from the entrance to the admin block at 7 in the morning any day of the year and with the squirrels and birds and grass and light dew and grass all around you on roads that are all yours, you will fall in love and i dont care if thats not what you were talking about..its NOT ugly

``He carefully stands up, stretches, and looks in the direction of the well-lit riverbank. He sees a bunch of people all smiling and welcoming him. He picks up his small bag and jumps onto the riverbank. He is greeted and warmly welcomed. At last his dreams will come true. At last he is in the right place. Far from the madding crowd. Far from the corrupt society, and far from dismay. Far. Very very Far.``

thats the different then...your dream is a place right...for some of us the dream is right for that which is ours...pain at seeing what you love in a mess i can understand only too well...if this is that, my apologies if i`m being needlessly b!tchy and incoherant and confusing..

i hope you will interact and tell us exactly what your problem is

reading this made me sad. not very sad, because i hear this kind of justification often, but quite sad. one of my most fervent desires is that one day i will hear yet another of these tales of disillusionment and not react at all, having learned to let them flow peacefully through a hollow cranium rather than catch on some fractured thought and linger.

when i hear tales like these i wonder if they stem from guilt. do they? who told the people who tell these tales they have to feel guilty for the choice they made?

reading/hearing these tales also makes me angry. especially lines like `he heaves a sigh of relief and starts to walk the other way to lights and laughter.` i know it is irrational anger on my part, but i resent the fact that people look at where i live and see no light and laughter.

yes there are benazirs and nawaz and generals galore...and george bush i presume is an intellecutal with no interest in big business or milking hate for profit?

is it a futile dream to be succesful in pakistan? probably. i think the only way around it is to not let anyone else dictate the meaning of the notion of success, and find peace and tranquility in bringing balance to your own life.

easier said then done, yes yes i know.

one day i will learn to not react.

shandana