The Right To Bigotry

ana

,,,, trust me its ok i FEEL the same way ...will i ever meet a girl? am i gonna single for the rest of my life? i dont know . too bad !!! i once heard a comedian describe being single like this---`` being single can be described as being lonely when u get to sleep , but when u get up the rest of the day:euphoria ``

is this true for you ?

if i ever meet a good , desi guy ill send him ur way ...........but i suspect most desi guys are intimidated by independant -minded feminists so i dont know :)

Reply # 181 Umer Murtaza

[``Dear Samina,

Dost Mittar is 60-64. Are you really that old?``]

No, just desperate.

Ref 12-headed-snake-with-ineffective-venom #: 182

[I dont knw anyone MORE bigot than Harami OU

``.....ross a Bengali Communist with a Kerala Communist: left-wing apologists who will justify the Tien An Men Square massacre.....``

That os true Arundhati was fathered by Bengali in Teab Plantation area of North Bengal but it would be height of generalisation to call a Manager Communist.....

THATS CALLED making A$$ ..u..&.ME (ASSUME)

He also knows Kerala is Communist majority state several elections but her mother mary roy a non resident Keralite is not communist .

What happens when you have HARAMIU ..assumptions .........assumptions....... assumptins]

A. Roy walked out of her home and stayed in the slums of Calcutta during her college days for about 18 months. Maybe that is where she picked up her leanings toward the left. But what passes for intellectual discourse among the bhadralok of Bengal is nothing but discussions on the merits of Maoism vs Marxism.

So there!

Ref hobbes #: 177

[Quite unlike the mix of hindu facist who justify the massacres in gujjrat.]

I don`t need lectures on tolerance from those who justify Sept 11, the blowing up of Bamiyan Buddhas, the massacre in East Timor, the destruction of civil society in Afghanistan, killing people for saying Pr. M might have have had hairy armpits, forcible conversion to The True Faith, gang rape as punishment for seeing a girl, and a whole host of activities that cannot even remotely be construed as tolerant.

Dear Ashok,

Disappointed??? Yeah, matey. I`m down in the dumps now. ha ha ha. No, I really am. You`ve heard tears of joy. Ha ha ha, well that was laughter of sadness. There I was thinking she was a young `purrie`. Oh the pain…

Thank you for reminding me about the whole female - age shenanigan. I can`t believe I actually forgot that. Just goes to show I`m barely 12.

Umer M.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

YLH # 169

YOu have described ARoy as a brilliant intellectual , pray where would VS Naipaul stand in your evaluation.

Thanks

MT

#: 172

harimau

Ref ylh #: 169

[Harimau,

Why such latent hatred for A-roy?

She is a brilliant intellectual and is not necessarily pro-Pakistan or pro-China as you might make her out to be.]

Arundhati Roy is what you get when you cross a Bengali Communist with a Kerala Communist: left-wing apologists who will justify the Tien An Men Square massacre.



Here is a classical example of BIGOTARY the title of this thread

I dont knw anyone MORE bigot than Harami OU

``.....ross a Bengali Communist with a Kerala Communist: left-wing apologists who will justify the Tien An Men Square massacre.....``

That os true Arundhati was fathered by Bengali in Teab Plantation area of North Bengal but it would be height of generalisation to call a Manager Communist & only b/c this Harami only know from bengal that CPM is the majority for last 17 years

THATS CALLED making A$$ ..u..&.ME (ASSUME)

He also knows Kerala is Communist majority state several elections but her mother mary roy a non resident Keralite is not communist .

What happens when you have HARAMIU ..assumptions .........assumptions....... assumptins

Dear Samina,

Dost Mittar is 60-64. Are you really that old?

re: hobbyty

{Quite unlike the mix of hindu facist who justify the massacres in gujjrat.}

...and definitely not quite unlike the modern-day barbarians who justify jehadi terrorism calling it `freedom struggle`...

fawad

[ps i know you dont want to be viewed as objects but hey its human nature !!!!! know any nice ,single dokhtars send them my way :)]

Human nature ki aisi ki taisi! You just thank your lucky stars that I am a forgiving femme, otherwise.... :) !!!!!

And what`s this? Me, send nice, single dokhtars your way? Only if they can teach you a thing or two or more...(including making chelo kebab, or kofta curry, or wotever, and more importantly..equality amigo equality)!!! And what`s this again? Ever heard that phrase..`always a bridesmaid, never a bride?` Is my role now to be `always a matchmaker and never a match?????` Chalo.. a new role to embrace with gusto!!!! NOT :)

love, ana.

re: spout

{please leave ylh alone....pick on someone ur own age. damn bully.}

...how about i toss a candy your way and you stop meddling in other people`s business?...

``Arundhati Roy is what you get when you cross a Bengali Communist with a Kerala Communist: left-wing apologists who will justify the Tien An Men Square massacre.``

Quite unlike the mix of hindu facist who justify the massacres in gujjrat.

re: ylh

{`Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have daylight savings time`}

...want to provide a link or reference to where that was said?...i didn`t think so...full of $hit, as usual...no wonder you weren`t able to keep yourself from getting deported....

Dost Mittar,

I think I am closer in age to you and your wife than your daughter...but she sounds like Your daughter more than anything :) I am forever thankful to my parents for being honest about culture, identity and religion.

ana



i am doin my internship in a pharmaceutical comp....this place is great Bms has a cappucino machine on every floor with all blends of cofee.........its all free

ps i know you dont want to be viewed as objects but hey its human nature !!!!! know any nice ,single dokhtars send them my way :)

love

fawad

raveena #166,

please leave ylh alone....pick on someone ur own age. damn bully.

Ref ylh #: 169

[Harimau,

Why such latent hatred for A-roy?

She is a brilliant intellectual and is not necessarily pro-Pakistan or pro-China as you might make her out to be.]

Arundhati Roy is what you get when you cross a Bengali Communist with a Kerala Communist: left-wing apologists who will justify the Tien An Men Square massacre.

ylh:

``PS I will write a comprehensive account of her lecture at Lahore...``

...guess i`ll see you there:)...

PS to Ana,

``I know, Cowasjee never fails to remind us of what Jinnah said, but how many of us are really listening--those words are dead to them.``

You are listening aren`t you? and I am? and many more... believe me the 80s are being slowly buried.. and our cherished words are coming alive once again... it has taken very long .. but it is happening.



-YLH

Ana,

Alright... point taken. I misunderstood your statement...

Harimau,

Why such latent hatred for A-roy?

She is a brilliant intellectual and is not necessarily pro-Pakistan or pro-China as you might make her out to be.

Dear sweet Rsaxena,

Whatever statements I allegedly made, or you think I made, or you claim I made don`t hold a candle to this following one:

`Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have daylight savings time`

Any bets for what saxena is going to mention next?

Happy Independence day(s) in advance to all Chowkies.

Love

YLH

Gujarat 2002

Comes Straight out of the RSS’s ‘Heart Of Darkness’

What is needed is a permanent challenge to the parivar’s activities

The Godhra incident was not the reason of why the rest of Gujarat went up in flames. Nor was it the reason of why Muslims, especially women and children, have been hunted down. Godhra was simply an occasion, the excuse for what has been happening in Gujarat for four months now, just as September 11 was not the reason but the occasion for launching of the ‘international war against terror’.

A slew of reasons have been put forward. But the main reason is just one: State involvement. Godhra was an excuse for butchery binged against Muslims. Gujarat 2002 comes straight out of the RSS’s ‘heart of darkness’. It was RSS go ahead signal. For the first time in the history of Independent India a State openly participated and justified the massacre of innocent law abiding citizens.

Time and again the RSS anti-Muslim agenda in particular and anti-minorities agenda in general is reflected in the findings of several judicial commissions that have probed communal troubles. For instance, the Jaganmohan Reddy Commission probing the Ahmedabad riots of 1969 stated that the ``agitation had received the blessings of the local Bharatiya Jan Sangh workers who did not want to involve themselves directly but suggested the formation of an organisation known as the Hindu Dharma Raksha Samiti... with an old RSS worker as its convenor.``

Similarly, the Jitendra Narain Commission of Inquiry into the Jamshedpur riots of 1979 stated that the ``commission is of the view that the RSS, with its extensive organisation in Jamshedpur and. close links with the Jan Sangh and the Bharatiya Mazdoor Sangh had a positive hand in creating a climate which was most propitious for the outbreak of the communal disturbances.``

The Venugopal Commission on the Hindu-Christian disturbances in Kanyakumari in 1982 said: ``The RSS adopts a militant and aggressive attitude and sets itself up as the champion of what it considers to be the rights of the Hindus against minorities....``

The RSS methodology for provoking communal violence is: rousing communal feelings in the majority community by the propaganda that Muslims are not loyal citizens of this country; deepening the fear in the majority community by a clever propaganda that the Muslim population is increasing and that of the Hindus decreasing; and infiltrating into the administration and developing communal attitudes.

Views such as these are reinforced at the ground level by the other organisations within the Sangh parivar like the VHP and Bajrang Dal, both of which were held responsible by the National Commission for Minorities and other independent fact-finding teams, for the recent riots in Gujarat. It has to be said in their favour, however, that none of these organisations has ever deviated from their views. They are quite clear in their view that India is a Hindu rashtra where the minorities must accept the ‘culture’ of the majority. It is the BJP, which has been hedging its bets. Because of political compulsions, it has always been less abrasive than the other, more outspoken outfits of the parivar.

Prof. Paul R. Brass, a scholar of repute who has done field research in India for decades, explains in his mini-classic Theft of an Idol (1997): ``Riot specialists are specialists in the conversion of incidents into the relations between the communities, in this case between Hindus and Muslims, into occasions for riots. When the time is right for the fomenting of a large-scale disturbance, then students, hooligans, low-caste persons from slums and outlying areas, criminals, and special squads of trained activists such as the members of the Bajrang Dal, will be brought in. According to social scientists, riots need, as a necessary condition, organisations that plot mass killings with governmental support. Which are the organisations that plot mass killings is an open secret.

The Sangh parivar wants the nation to believe that what is happening in Gujarat is nothing but the manifestation of the sentiments of the Hindus. Nothing else can be farther from the truth. The Gujarat carnage was in no way an isolated or spontaneous manifestation of the Hindu sentiments as claimed by Hindutva forces. In reality it was the outcome of the hate Muslim campaign conducted by the Hindutva brigade under various pretexts. Ayodhya movement spearheaded by the RSS cousin VHP had been exploited to spread the hate Muslim campaign throughout the country.

Prior to Gujarat carnage the BJP and VHP leaders through anti-Muslim speeches vitiated the country atmosphere. Throughout its more than 70-year existence, the RSS has been associated with communal riots and virulent anti-Muslim violence. The organisation was founded in 1925. The Sangh Parivar remained largely in the shadows during the struggle for Independence. Since Independence it has sought to overcome that ignominy through one stratagem or the other. The RSS first emerged as a mass organisation during the horrific communal violence that surrounded the 1947 partition of the Indian subcontinent. The principal ideologues of Hindu rashtra, the RSS leader M.S. Golwalkar and V.D. Savarkar (head of a like-minded communal political party, the Hindu Mahasabha) draw direct inspiration from Nazi Germany. ``Germany has ... shown,`` writes Golwalkar, ``how well-nigh impossible it is for races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole – a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by.``

Time and again it has taken to the streets, or used state power, to demand a total ban on cow slaughter, stop religious conversions, revise history text-books to ensure that they upheld ‘Indian’ culture, emphasised, with just a hint of compulsion, the need to study Sanskrit, astrology, Vedic mathematics, yoga, ayurveda and other ‘Indian’ subjects and, when shove came to push, gone about intimidating the minorities and vandalising their places of worship.

It is an article of faith with the RSS-BJP that India’s religious minorities do not have a legitimate, independent identity. The BJP’s election manifesto (1998) is unambiguous: ``The BJP is committed to the concept of One Nation, One People and One Culture... Our nationalist vision is not merely bound by the geographical or political identity of Bharat but it is referred by our timeless cultural heritage. This cultural heritage which is central to all regions, religions and languages, is a civilizational identity and constitutes the cultural nationalism of India which is the core of Hindutva.`` For the BJP, ``Shri Ram lies at the core of Indian consciousness.``

For the Sangh Parivar, Muslims, Christians and Sikhs have an identity only as some kind of sub-sects of Hindus. As the Union HRD Minister Murli Manohar Joshi put it: ``Hindu Rashtra`` is ``the basic culture of this country. Sangh Parivar says that all Indian Muslims are Mohammadiya Hindus; all Indian Christians are Hindus. They are Hindus who have adopted Christianity and Islam as their religion.``

According to RSS leader Sudarshan: ``If Muslims have to stay in India, they will have to submit to the Indianisation of their religion. It is time they thought of preserving only the essential 10 per cent and did away with the other 90 per cent of their religion incorporating in its stead elements of Indian culture.`` Thus the Sangh Parivar is trying to terrorise the religious minorities. Its threat is directed at the minorities within the majority too, at those who do not practise the sanatana dharma that Hindutva advocates.

This is a menace to India’s pluralism, surely one of its greatest assets. To this day, the life of the estimated 40,000 RSS cells or shakhas revolves around a daily martial arts drill, in which youth, from their early teens on, are schooled in fighting and taught complete obedience to their RSS superiors.

What is needed is a permanent challenge to the parivar’s activities. The Sangh Parivar succeeded in its strategy in Gujarat because it met with no challenge in the cultural or political arena. Whatever anti-Hindutva opposition there was in Gujarat came in the form of old-guard Congress leaders who neither made efforts to consolidate the existing social traditions of Gujarat, nor tried to counter the multi-pronged strategy of the parivar to ‘integrate’ the Hindus. It is probably too late to affect a reversal. But there is still time.

Before it’s too late citizens of this great nation must raise and say enough is enough. Since common Hindus and Common Muslims do not have any problem living peacefully with each other, they should unitedly expose the trap laid by the Hindutva brigade.

hobbes #155 I cut and paste what you wrote to excuse these murderers of these three female nurses. Finding yourself exposed as an apologist for terrorists, you tell me you have had it with me. I am sure you have. You have had it with truth and common decency as well. This is your Islam!

re: ylh

...i don`t need to insult you...you do a wonderful job of that yourself, what with one asinine statement after another...

...claiming to be the descendent of the prophet is YOUR statement, not mine...saying your daddy offered you a job so the paki economy must be great is YOUR statement, not mine...

..tsk tsk tsk...

Ref ylh #: 158

[Arundhati Roy is on her Pakistan Tour this independence day...

The topic is : Freedom and Peace

PS I will write a comprehensive account of her lecture at Lahore...]

Don`t bother. Here it is:

Nuclear weapons are bad. All nukes must be destroyed. Except those held by China because China is a peace-loving nation.

The Sardar Sarovar dam should be stopped because it displaces 1 million people.

The Three Gorges Dam in China is a glorious accomplishment of the brave Chinese people. If 50 million people are displaced, that is a small sacrifice willingly given by the brave Chinese people.

Blah, blah, blah.

PS. Don`t let my summary prevent you from going to the lecture. You will lap it up.

fawad..

news flash: Starbucks has always been a `yuppie status symbol` as you put it. :)

But to be fair to Starbucks (if that is possible), they do charge less for the Grande Americano that I order than most of the Torrefaziones I go to. Although I have found a Torrefazione that does charge less than two bucks, yay! But then Torrefazione perhaps caters to an `elite` crowd as well...what to do..buy my own espresso maker?!?

I went to the India festival here yesterday..so many desis..and I thought if you were here, little one, your eyes would be popping far out of those sockets..lots of `aakh jaan` dokhtars. But in teasing you about this, I run the risk of offending my fellow femmes, who like me, don`t want to be gazed upon as objects. Khair, I simply point this out to you to observe the diverse beauty of the sistahs who surrounded me.

And your mentioning KEMC reminds me of when I used to go visit my Khala who lived on McLeod Road, and if went and hung out on the top of the roof, we could see the rooftops of KEMC male hostels. We`d see some of them often, walking back and forth, wearing down the floor, or the ceilings of the rooms below them! And some of them were quite desperate. The stories my female cousins told me.....!!!

ylh..

hmmm...issi liye mein tum se ab baat nahin zyada karti. Perhaps had I put a bezillion exclamation points beside that phrase, then just maybe I would have gotten the point across that I was teasing you..and that I also think the `enemy` is more within than without. Aur tum? itna ghussa? Khair...fikr not mere laal, I don`t expect you to say things to please me..I expect you to speak your mind, which you do. I may not always agree with what you say, or how you say it, but please, don`t ever think that I want you to say things to please me. I don`t expect that from anyone on this Chowk! :)

Of course I`m more than a little cynical. If you lived in this world as long as I have, and have seen, and heard the things that I have, then maybe, just maybe you`d be kinda cynical too. I lost my rose-colored glasses a loooong time ago. `nyways..I know, Cowasjee never fails to remind us of what Jinnah said, but how many of us are really listening--those words are dead to them.

I hope you all do succeed in making society a vehicle of change. Have fun in Lahore, and don`t let it go to the kuttas, nahin tau fawad and I will have to come back and make chapli kabab out of you!!!! (and i really was teasing this time)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

ana

i want to share something with you my father and mother who grew up in pakistan have no intention of returning me , who has had 1 bad experience in pakistan (dropping out of KEMC) still fanatasizes about living out my old age in some village in the Northern Areas ......i guess those of us who are intrigued by pakistan will always be ..................

ps why the hell do people 5 bucks to have a cup of cofee at starbucks its sort of a yuppie staus symbol now

ana,

i saw this really cute blue bus on the street, it said `indo-pak church of nazareth`...it really struck me for some reason....

i think muslims could learn a thing or two from people of other faiths if we just opened our minds.

ANNOUNCEMENT...

Arundhati Roy is on her Pakistan Tour this independence day...

She speaks

@ Islamabad on 14th August

@ Lahore on 15th August

@ Karachi on 16th August

The topic is : Freedom and Peace

arranged by Najam Sethi`s team.

I have already written the email addresses on Umair Raja Board where you can get your invitations and details of these events...

-YLH

PS I will write a comprehensive account of her lecture at Lahore...

ana,

``kya rhetoric jhara hai tum ne.yes, Musharraf must definitely take a firmer stand on the increasing violence against women and minorities.``

Sorry to see that you are so cynical, but I don`t blame you. I have a very vivid self interest when I say what I say and what seems to you to be simply rhetoric... My self interest is to see my country succeed, and in order to do so, the minorities of Pakistan have to succeed... Pakistani christians have played a great role in fields of education, health, armed forces, and more recently sports.. they are the best Pakistanis there are and their success is Pakistan`s success... Whenever Pakistanis like those nurses die, a part of me dies. And if you think this rhetoric, its your fault.

Please take it out of your head that I would say anything to please you. What happened that day and before that, and what happened to Ayub Masih, and that Bishop who committed suicide, and that young boy who was sentenced to death for blasphemy... are of great concern to me. You wrote about Jinnah`s 11th August speech `Those words are as dead now as he is.` Well that is precisely the reason why people like Ardeshir Cowasjee keep reminding the nation of those historic words (and they were not the only words by the way)... I will repeat those words, and many will join in, until the entire Pakistani society becomes a vehicle of change...



As Does COWASJEE... So DO I...

``No nation can rise to the height of glory unless your women are side by side with you. We are victims of evil customs. It is a crime against humanity that our women are shut up within the four walls of their houses as prisoners. There is no sanction anywhere for the deplorable conditions in which our women have to live. You should take your women along with you as comrades in every sphere of life.`` (1944)

``The new state would be a modern democratic state with sovereignty resting in the people and the members of the new nation having equal rights of citizenship regardless of their religion, caste or creed.``(May 1947)

``Minorities DO NOT cease to be citizens. Minorities living in Pakistan or Hindustan do not cease to be citizens of their respective states by virtue of their belonging to particular faith, religion or race. I have repeatedly made it clear, especially in my opening speech to the constituent Assembley, that the minorities in Pakistan would be treated as our citizens and will enjoy all the rights as any other community. Pakistan SHALL pursue this policy and do all it can to create a sense of security and confidence in the Non-Muslim minorities of Pakistan. We do not prescribe any school boy tests for their loyalty. We shall not say to any Hindu citizen of Pakistan `if there was war would you shoot a Hindu?``` (October 1947)





``You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.`` (August 1947)

This is the pledge WE made to History. It is time we lived upto our word.

Ladies and gentlemen

``re: ylh

...bleat, bleat, bleat, o great descendent of the prophet.....``

There you have it. Those who bet on Rsaxena`s mention of the Prophet won hands down. I am surprised at the sheer monotony of these petty insults ... no creativity.

-YLH

Tahmed

I have had it with you. My writing and my opinion need not conform to your idea of what is to be said and how it is be said - Keep your reserve and I will keep mine.

hobbes #151 I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, not apologizing. This is what you had written about the brutal killing of three nurses in Pakistan, and wounding of others: ``We`re all with you on that one Ana - that`s not us, or at least, not most of us. This isn`t about Muslims or Christians or Parsees or martians - it`s about creating problems for Mr. Musharraf`s government.

Read the last part, and that clearly is an excuse for that brutal act of terrorism against a group of female nurses. Despite this, I accepted you at your word when you said this is not what you meant. Given the spirit in which you have treated my response, I think I will take back the benefit of the doubt. I can only say I am appalled at this response, and was deluding myself in thinking that you regretted your response (about which the less said the better) to this murder.

shammi #148 The chicken that the generals` sent to Afghanistan and Kashmir have indeed come home to roost.

Tahmed

You have done this on several occasions. Have I ever misrepresented you? ``Just forget about it`` is a hardly an apology and it`s a disappointment that you are unwilling to demonstrate an integrity and civility, you so often call on others to demonstrate.

Shankar: I Remember after musharrafs terrorism speech how some guy made a thread on musharraf being so brave and going down in history...

Hes a coward and a fool like ALL the rest.

...ana…since i can’t imagine the tumult of emotions you must be going through, i won’t try…but please rest assured that there are people in pakistan (and i’m talking about almost everyone barring the odd jihadi aficionado here and there) who are as outraged/sickened as you are over these attacks…but…we talk about it….shake our heads…curse…and then….nothing…what will it take for us to unite and stand up against these rabid jihadis?…when ppl we know and love start dying?…sigh…here, i share your pessimism….

Shankar to Romair:

``...Maybe the official military spokesman on Chowk, Feild Marshall Romair, should shed some light on how well Mushy is handling this problem...``

Do you recall how F.M. Romair used to chirp that the military could `take out` these militant groups `anytime they wanted`? Well, now that the `freedom struggle` has begun earnest in Pakistan, I wonder what the eminent F.M. thinks.

I think that Musharraf faces little choice now -- he is heading towards becoming Pakistan`s Hosni Mubarak.

hobbes #139 That is what it seemed from the way you had written, though. If that is not what you meant, then please ignore what I wrote.

``the guy is a COWARD`` (Shanker)

the guy IS a coward -- otherwise he wouldn`t have used his whole army to overpower a few unarmed elected civilians.

he IS a coward -- because all his military might is directed against one unarmed hapless WOMAN who was just elected the Chairperson of her party -- who just would NOT give up -- despite constant harassment and shameless military-judicial bluster.



Musharraf IS A COWARD -- because in two months there is SUPPOSED to be a `fair & free` election/selection for HIS OWN `real` democracy --and he is still AFRAID TO DEATH to lift the ban on mainstream political parties to start electioneering.

He WAS a brave commando when he was earning an honest living as a professional soldier.

but NOT NOW.

now he is a TURNCOAT soldier turned COWARD -- who has corrupted his noble profession -- by taking an easy comfortable, unnatural, unprofessional, illegitimate, dishonest -- civilian route -- Parading as a Pious -- Politician-In-Chief.

re: ylh

...bleat, bleat, bleat, o great descendent of the prophet.....

Samina

Thank you jaan :). I need to do more looking on my own as well in terms of letter-writing, petitions.

I was just reading all these posts and thinking how thankful I was that something like Chowk exists. As much as we complain about those posters who tend to talk out of a part of their anatomy other than their mouths..it felt good to log on to the computer today and read and feel the warm thoughts that floated out from the screen. A bezillion thank-yous :)

fawad..

arre..thank you for the words, and the hug. They are really appreciated :) I`m feeling much better than I was when I wrote my last post to you..coming to Chowk helped, talking to my mother helped. And thank you for the apology, even though I wasn`t asking for one :)

I know what you mean about idealized fantasies and whims azizam..I, too wish that I could spend warm summer evenings enveloped in jasmine and gulabs in Lawrence gardens, or summer days in Murree allowing myself to indulge in the pleasure of eating roasted `chhali`(corn on the cob)with that incredible combination of lime and red pepper rubbed on it, one of the few things my mother let us buy from street hawkers. I`m sure many of us have fantasies like that..and then cruel realities hit us, no? The thing that is often difficult to do, `specially when one is alone is not to let the cruel realities get us down. I`ve been angry, and you say you are too, but rather than succumbing to the temptation of washing ourselves clean of Pakistan altogether, maybe we can channel this anger in positive ways by trying to figure out how to make our voices heard, and keep Pakistan idealized or the opposite in our hearts.

And no, I am not disgusted by all Pakistani Muslims (or any other Muslims for that matter). I am forever indebted to quite a few of them, father figures, uncles and aunties who loved us and took care of us, and taught us important lessons in life.

[maybe its time for these mullahs to take the cinder block out of their own eyes before they look for the piece of woods out of either people`s eyes ]...and not just the mullahs, yaar.

a hug and warm regards,

a.

shammi

[Where did all the liberal education that he imbibed there go? ]

er..that wasn`t the only thing he imbibed, but liberal education doesn`t necessarily liberate a man/woman from his/her bigotry and other demons. So you can take a jahil out of jahilia, but you cannot take jahilia out of a jahil. Unfortunately I know quite a few desi men and women to whom that applies :). As for Daniel Pearl`s father, the world is an increasingly shrinking place, and terror does hit closer to home in many ways.

Zafar..

Thank you. And indeed we shall overcome..and may we live to see it as well :) And I`m with you on the yuckiness muckiness of Starbucks..gosh, don`t they have Torrefaziones in your neck of the woods, ye imbibers of Starbucks?!

YLH..

been a while, yasser, na?

[It is time Musharraf acted like a dictator, that he is, and came down hard on the mullahs and the fanatics who are the greatest enemies of Pakistan, a thousand times greater an enemy than India can ever be.]

kya rhetoric jhara hai tum ne. yes, Musharraf must definitely take a firmer stand on the increasing violence against women and minorities.

tahmed..

and this is what we should focus on na? The common humanity that does bind us together, the different threads that embroider and join together to make a beautiful piece?

hobbes..

thanks :). In my litany of people I have lost faith in, I should add certain elements of the Christian community as well. But for me, as long as breath continues, faith must as well :)

Warm regards to all of you... a.

What the HELL is Mushy doing?! Goddamn it, if you are a dictator, kick some goddamned ass, I say. He has this world famous disciplined military behind him, doesnt he?

Now that the police has identified the this-e-that group that killed the nurses, round up some of their leaders & PUBLICLY hang them! Why the heck is that so difficult?

What the HECK is he scared of?

1)Going around the law? Goddamnit, he IS the law!

2) Scared of mullahs? Aw gimme a break! If Pakistani Chowkies are right, only 2% of the population is pro-mullah. Maybe they can make some noise on the street. So what?! Just send your world famous troops consisting of marital races & kill a few of the beards, the rest will go scurrying into their harems.

I think Mushy is a lot of hot air. Hey! its easy for him to go on national tv & say ``we Pakistanis wont compromise our honor!..we will teach India a lesson she never forgets!``

Wah wah..Mushy ke bacche...Mashallah! Subhanallah!! Ooof! what courage it must require to tell off the cowardly Indians!...even my grandma can do that!.. When it comes to dealing with Paki pigs who are making your country a laughing stock in the eyes of the world; the guy is a COWARD.

He makes a big deal of putting them in house arrest & then releasing them (O yeah...I forgot THOSE guys are not terrorists, but freedom fighters)..

Pray tell me, Islam ke mashoor pehelwans, are these guys freedom fighters too?! After all, they are fighting for Pakistan`s freedom against the evil & sacrilegious West..who are not as bad as hindu vermin, but close..

Reality is that guys like Mushy must have indirectly helped give birth to all of them. After all, he is a ``world famous`` Cammando General, isnt he? He loooves his ``cammando uniform``. Just who the fcuk TRAINED these SOBs? Guerella tactics & cammando tactics are very similar.

Hey, but what do I know? I`m just an armchair nonexpert. Maybe the official military spokesman on Chowk, Feild Marshall Romair, should shed some light on how well Mushy is handling this problem. I mean, after I read the one & only Romair, I just feel like hugging & kissing Mushy...

Ana,

I second Zafar`s message. And you need not explain yourself to anybody. If theres anything we can do; write letters, petitions, find out about educational groups, please let me know. (I`ll be looking on my own, as well)

Zafar,

Banish the thought of patronaging Starbucks! Have you had a gander at the vitamin laced water lately? Tastes really awful...

Tahmed

``And no, Hobbes, this is not about destabilizing Musharraf`s government - and I am shocked that you should think that destabilizing the government in Pakistan is a good thing, or that it justifies these killings.``

Ahmed Sahab, where did you read that I said it was a good thing or it justifes these killings? or that it is good to destabilize the government of Pakistan?

Can you show not just me but all Chowk that your assertion that I think these killings are good and justified?

I wrote on Aug 6 in post #73 on the ``Myth of Autonomy`` board that a we can expect a major terror offensive; and this offensive in my opinion is about destabilizing the governmemt of Mr. Musharraf.

ana

.....i dont know how it is like being called a choora ....i dont know its like being made to feel discriminated systematically......i know how i feel when i get jokes like ``are you al-qaida`` are you supposed to have 4 wives . ...i swear even though i could never live in pakistan as americanized as i am i think maybe i belong in lahore.....lahore is home ....my ancestors are buried there,,,,,on fridays i wish i could be praying jummah at badshashi........in summers i wish i could have summers in muree......but these are just idealized fanatasies and whims ......you are more pakistani than i will ever be and i know it............i dont blame you one bit for not being in pakistan or leaving why should you live in that shthole ???????? i guess all i could do is if i ever saw you is give my apologies on behalf of my retarded co-religionists and give you a hug ......i share your anger deeply .................without being facetious pakistani xians happen to demostrate a love for their homeland not shown by pakistani muslims often mde poignant by the challenges they face i wish their could be some national reconciliation and pakistanis all of them ---xian muslim hindu and what have you just get together and better their nation i dont see it happening i just hope you are not disgusted by all pakistani muslims ...............maybe its time for these mullahs to take the cinder block out of their own eyes before they look for the piece of woods out of either people`s eyes

bye

aziz

im sorry for what they are doing and i apologize

hobbes/ana On the murder of the three nurses in Pakistan today, here is what the NYT reports: ``Throughout the morning, local Muslims, who make up the vast majority of the hospital`s patients, came to console wounded Christians. ``These people cure the Muslims,`` Manafia Begum, a local Muslim, said as she held the hand of one wounded nurse. ``And look what happens.``

This is the only saving grace I see in today`s killings of nurses: the common humanity that joins muslim and christian Pakistanis together.

And no, Hobbes, this is not about destabilizing Musharraf`s government - and I am shocked that you should think that destabilizing the government in Pakistan is a good thing, or that it justifies these killings. This is about a gang of criminals trying to take over Pakistan by force. It is time that the military government woke up to the evil that mullahism that it has spawned in Pakistan.

re: ana

``...stuck in the shadows of Zia`s jahilia...``

And probably you would not even know that Zia was educated at Delhi`s ST. STEPHENS college -- one of Delhi`s best. Where did all the liberal education that he imbibed there go? Terror has hit close to me as well -- I just made the sad discovery that I know the father of Danny Pearl (the WSJ reporter beheaded in Karachi). He was a professor of mine at graduate school. An absolutely brilliant one at that, and the founding father of an entirely new branch of artifical intelligence, Bayesian networks.

Reply Ana # 128

“What the `ell good is technology and new and modern buildings alongside Main Boulevard when our hearts and minds have expanded so little?”

Ana, yeh tho hum Hindustan meiN bhi sochthe haiN. And for much the same reasons. Be strong. We SHALL overcome.

Reply Saminashah, Dost Mittar, Shankar # 118

PLEASE stop drinking that muck they call coffee at Starbucks. Take yourself directly to an Italian café and have something decent, or take up chamomile tea. (Starbucks? Astaghf....)

Salaam e dua

Z

PS Dost Mittarji, please listen more to your daughter who sounds like she has a conscience which is a credit to you!

APPEAL to jay

Learn how to spell for God`s sake... Please?

Thankyou

YLH

Ana,

Everytime these bast@rds kill a Pakistani especially from the minorities, I feel like going and breaking a Mullah`s head. To think that we are killing our Pakistani brethren for the sake of those uncouth bearded fools from Afghanistan?

It is time Musharraf acted like a dictator, that he is, and came down hard on the mullahs and the fanatics who are the greatest enemies of Pakistan, a thousand times greater an enemy than India can ever be.

There is no point in returning to democracy without cleaning up Pakistan... It is time for all of us to unite against the menace of the mullahs...

-YLH

PS: Saxena have you forgotten to count as well? tsk tsk that syndrome is getting really worse now...

Please seek some psychiatric help...

Ladies and gentlemen,

Please don’t mind the petty insults and abuse hurled at me by Saxena. He can’t help himself. He suffers from a strange ailment which makes him think that he is the God’s gift to mankind, which makes him act this way. Other than allegedly making a ‘Bakra’ and ‘bleating’ the hell out of me, he has never contributed anything positive to this website. He declares: ‘I am on chowk for fun’. I wonder what kind of a life-less loser would go to a serious issue-oriented website like Chowk for kicks? It is in my faith to show compassion to the pathetic and the underprivileged suffering from severe psychological problems. Therefore I urge others to do the same.

A concerned well wisher of Rsaxena,

YLH

Ana

You do have a point - If ``we`` are really with you, why have we not publically or peacefully demonstrated that? - A march, some event to show publically, that this is not us. None of the political parties or politicians have made specific comments, neither has the president.

Is it our failure? Yes it is. Not only are ordinary persons terrorized, the highest officials in the land know these murderers are gunning for them. The policy thus far been not to antagonize them, like keeping away from a hornets next - but it`s not possible anymore, they have made the choice that either Pakistan will conform to their vision or die. keep the faith, Pakistanis will not allow that vision nor will it allow Pakistan to die.

re: ylh

...bleat, bleat, bleat...keep it up...4 posts in repsonse to one-liners?...bleat, bleat, bleat...

hobbes,

that is the line that Nisar Memon and others may give, but I, personally, refuse to believe that this isn`t about Christians. Everyone can tell me otherwise, but I`ve heard of enough churches being razed, and as I`ve mentioned here before, my mother`s village was attacked, churches razed, houses set on fire..and this was prior to the Generalissimo`s arrival on the presidential scene...so yes, while there are those haramis who want to create trouble for Musharraf..the target is definitely Christians..Pakistani or foreign nationals.

I heard that right at the onset of the war in Afghanistan, there was a mullah who actually called for taking the lives of Christians. For every Muslim life lost in Afghanistan, he called for two Christian lives to be taken in Pakistan. Not just one but two. THAT is what the life of a Christian living in Pakistan is worth to some deranged individuals. Not two Parsees, not two Hindus, probably not even two Martians if they were sighted, but two Christians..because these jahils associate Christianity with the West. America being the great shaitan, and Christians being their followers..puhleeze!

I remember our earlier discussion about women, and was thinking, how can we as Christians even go out in the streets and protest these actions without being accused of blasphemy or being thrown in jail on some trumped-up charge. There are Christians already languishing in Pakistani prisons on trumped-up charges. And now this. Surely there must be more effective ways of causing trouble for the Generalissimo, then to take the lives of Christians (and Muslims in the crossfire).

I`ve been sad about this for quite a while now, and my sadness has slowly been converting into anger. When I said that these attacks seem to be hitting closer to home, I say that because I have either met people connected to, or have visited these two places that were attacked this week. Both of these places have personal significance for me..so this added personal dimension to the situation has me incredibly anxious for the entire Christian community, but especially for my relatives as well as for family friends..and if there is a plan..and a pattern, who will be next in the troublemakers` plan to eliminate? And when is anyone besides those of us who have no protections going to come out and speak on this..someone other than our forked-tongued Generalissimo, and his cronies, who are politicians afterall, and who cannot always be believed?

hobbes, I do appreciate you saying how you are all with me on this one. It is somewhat consoling, but unfortunately many of us Pakistani Christians feel that we do not have the support of the people. I, myself, have been fortunate to grow up around family friends who are Muslim, and treated us like their very own, and we loved them as though they were ours, which is why this hurts even more..these people, devout and secular showed me what Pakistan could be..and that was thirty something years ago. How sad indeed it is to think that rather than progressing in thirty years, we have regressed, and continued to do, still stuck in the shadows of Zia`s jahilia. What the `ell good is technology and new and modern buildings alongside Main Boulevard when our hearts and minds have expanded so little?

Ana #125

We`re all with you on that one Ana - that`s not us, or at least, not most of us. This isn`t about Muslims or Christians or Parsees or martians - it`s about creating problems for Mr. Musharraf`s government.

fawad..

I woke up this morning and turned the television on to find out what time it was, and the news said something about a Christian hospital being bombed, and all the anchorperson kept saying was it was in Pakistan, not indicating where. I felt incredibly anxious, thinking it was the one in Lahore, but finally found out it was the one in Taxila. And it just keeps hitting closer and closer to home.

You asked me earlier how I felt. Today, I feel angry, very angry, and very sad for those who have lost their lives. Because these people did not deserve to die. I`m not really convinced that Americans or other foreign visitors are the ONLY targets. As an ignorant fool once told my cousin, who still lives in Pakistan, `Why don`t you go to America, or England. You don`t belong here.` I feel angry and helpless, because I can`t do anything from where I am, `cept what my mother keeps telling me to do. And somehow, prayers are not enough..they have to be followed by some positive action.

I remember one time when my Pakistani passport had expired, and I called the embassy here to renew it, and the guy started giving me this lecture on how I should return to Pakistan, how Pakistan needed young people like me. Perhaps I had told him my full name (which indicates what faith I follow), I don`t remember. I didn`t know how to respond then, except to say `you`ve given me something to think about.` But now I would say that when we as an entire nation value the lives of all those who are physically still among us (and those who are not), when we can learn to respect each other with our separate beliefs, yet equal in terms of our humanity, when we realize that the roads to Karachi, to Bahawalpur, to Jhika Gali, and to Lahore, and all the cities and villages in Pakistan can no longer be paved with ripped apart bodies from suicide bombs and Kalashinikovs, and when women are recognized throughout the country as more than just chattel, or mindless and voiceless creatures, then and only then will I even consider returning to Pakistan to live. But today, I am angry, and am tempted to rip my Pakistani passport to shreds.

Jinnah`s words about us being free to visit our churches, our temples ring really hollow for me right now..those words are as dead as he is. I have no faith in Musharraf, I have no faith in the politicians, exiled or otherwise, at this point my faith in God is on shaky ground as well.

And perhaps you can tell your friend who believes in a secular, progressive Pakistan, and thinks that those of us whining should come back and do something about it, that I am bloody tired of being told to return to a country where I have been made to feel less of a person both in terms of being a Christian and a woman, and really, my modest proposal is, if the goal here is to do away with the Christians, be they Pakistani or foreign nationals, to just kill them all..because the Pakistani Christians won`t budge, they too are sons and daughters of the soil, they too have made their contributions to the nation, and their stories, their history is either erased or will never be included in your bloody school and college textbooks, and thank God for that because it would be all lies!

You did ask how I felt..perhaps next time azizam, you would do well never to ask me that question again. Khodahafiz!

dost-mittar #111 My nephew (who lives in Europe) went one step further. After finishing high school, he convinced German authorities that he would do social work (which is permitted in lieu of compulsory military service in that country), and go to Pakistan to help ILO implement a program of education for children working in factories. He spent the hot summer months last year bouncing around the Panjab countryside in Pakistan, and returned after having successfully extended the program across a number of towns in that area. That is not easy work of course, but the program is a good one: the children keep on working in factories (thus earning badly needed family income) and also get a chance to get education. And factory owners proved quite receptive to this idea (since no doubt they are neither the ogres they are made out to be, and are also sensitive to the pressure being put on them to do something more for the children than paying them minimal wages and expecting them to sweat it out all day long in the factory).

jay #117 you write ``I am a paki basher``.

Ha! Ha! I can imagine this skinny little man doing shadow boxing in his padded cell. While the keepers sadly shake their head and stick another needle in his rear.

For those of you in NYC and its environs (and anywhere else :))

Rehan Ansari..haan apne chowk ka Rehan, is teaching a class on Indian cinema, To find out more about it, visit the link indicated below

http://www.nsu.newschool.edu/fall02/comm5.htm#NFLM3441

And sign up, if it strikes your fancy :)

Thanks!

Fawad,

So now are you Fawad or Fawad79? Too mischievious, this nick doppelgangering...

Anyways, SIR, I am pro Pal, but not pro hammas/hezbollah/etc.. Decimating the will/spirit of the Pal people is no solution either. Hiroshima/Nagasaki was an unwarranted cruelty that the conservatives have yet to own up to.

My comments were directed at your Paki girl generalizations. Be prepared to answer to them.

shankar

i like your posts i learn about the politics of medicine second we pharmacists are pushing too in the clinical direction ...ten years ago who the the hell heard of residencies for pharmacists?...........now there are all kinds of clinical specialties ............PharmDs are knowledgable i think ......they are not all that stupid as some MD/DOs percieve them to be.........

ps PAs and NPs rxibe now everyone but us PharmDs(not that i think we should) whats up with that?

id be interested on your perception of clinical pharmacists you ever work with those clinical pharmacists i heard there a few in pyschiatry is this true?

ps the founder eo starbucks called the palis terrorists APMC called for their boycott

re saminah

am in bizarro world all of a sudden? thought you were totally pro-palestinian ........

as per palestinian to be honest i sympathize with them totally but i follow kissinger`s school of thought in int`l affairs though ... there is no ideology or morality that can be a constraining force in deliberations of foreign policy( i swear to god i should have been a diplomat or a policy wonk at STATE) the palestinian movement must be crushed by israel with such tenacity that they cant ever think of violence again .....if i was an israeli to be honest id invade them wholesale or cutter them with daisies .........like think about the US nuked hisroshma and nagasaki and ended a world war but japan is better off today ........the palestinians need to be crushed and rehabilitated ..........or israel needs to withdraw and creat a real state in west bank and gaza condemning violence is BS .........there is no moral eqivalence the palis are the underdogs like Barak said said if he was a Pali he`d join hamas .........as per kashmir id say give it to the indians i dont give a damn about it anymore..............pakistan is like jordan in the 60s when king hussein cut off connections to the West bank he put the onus of liberation on the palis themselves .........i say pakistan do the same allow NO VIOLENCE FROM AZAD KASHMIR AND CUT THESE KASHMIRIS..........if they want azadi let them fight for it .............

if you read my post carefully madam(ps im not a boy child and if you think so well i will not name call back ) i have a nuanced view of the middleast in other words ive done my homework and i only see one way out one side has to CRUSH and win the other side has to loose ............u either win by terrorim r you dont the israelis won their state by terrorism maybe its time for the palis to win or loose ..............

Dost Mittar, Shankar,

Dost, first of all, congrats. on having such a socially responsible and wise daughter! For future ref. I think New Balance and Saucony are unionized and in North America. I also need a new pair of sneakers and plan on spending my money not at Nike.

For all of Nicolaus Kristof`s and co. rationalizations about why its better for impoverished workers to work within our current system, I can`t get over my gut instinct that buying from responsible companies is a local and global action; support worker parity so that local and global workers are not exploited. Its imp. that these issues are not obfuscated, esp. in this time of Enron, World.com, etc.

I`ve noticed that downsizing and its attendant evils are visiting the public service sector over here as well. For ex., my mom`s lab staff has been diminished while the work has increased. Last week, a big boss responded to a failing cleanliness report of her veteran`s hospital by refusing her and her colleagues contentions that Housekeeping be rebanded (were cut for budget reasons). His answer was to fudge the cleanliness standards and lower them a bit, so that the problem wouldn`t look so bad. Talk about creative spin...they voted against him anyway. Don`t even get me started on the NYTimes Sunday Education section on education where the piece work rate of the adjunct prof. was represented unquestioned. At this rate, I`ll be lucky to piece together several teaching jobs.

Shankar, Starbuck`s coffee is so expensive because 1. you are paying for the experience of the ``venue``; in other words, not everyone can afford to buy at Starbucks. 2. their coffee isn`t that great-over here it tends to be burnt, too strong and syrupy 3. Support your mom and pops for obvious reasons, one being Starbucks is another corporate behemoth that contributes to the destruction of local business and culture. See Barnes and Nobles, Blockbusters, Walmart. 4. See what kind of benefits Starbucks provides their employees-they sure make enough money.

ylh 65,

Here we go again. Read up the pak history in your own great govt of mUSHERAFF web site, and name the hindus mentioned in pak history. Great gokhele is linked to pakistan, let that man rest in his grave. Now about pak freedom struggle, great, when gokhele was in prison, jinnah was outside. Any one who took part in the freedom struggle was arretsed. However no one who drank sherry and ate was arrested. Now tell to which camp gokele, tilak belonged, and to which camp jinnah belonged. So much for the pak freedom struggle, let alone the people of the present day pakistan, did it mighty leader do anything. I have to admit, drinking sherry can be a worse suffering than going to prison. By the way cangress duly paid all the legal fees for gokhele.

Now about my pak obscession. I have told it several times on the chowk, I am a paki basher, the great sport practiced by the british youth in the sventies. It is alleged that it will demonstrated in the forthcoming commonwealth games in Melbourne, and I an at present there warming up for it. Let us not deny the great contribution of pakistan to this sport, and you can be more proud of this than about your alleged freedom fighters.

With three roades named after abdus salam in the small city of lahore, how about a ``paki bash street``, I will be glad to live there.

You are so pathetic.

Regards and best bishes, you need it in that god ( sorry allah) foresaken place.

Jay

Dear fawad

``yasser and sax

newsflash:jinnah gandhi and einstein are dead i mean does it matter?``

Precisely my point and that is exactly what I said in #79... whatever interest I have in them is purely academic... but Saxena insists on bringing up these things when he is getting his behind whacked... You see he claimed `Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have DST` (as if England was the fattest country in the world) declaring shamelessly that DST `depended on Latitudes`.

Then to hide his embarrassment he tried to start all this nonsense but as you can read from #79 I refused to be goaded into a Gandhi-Jinnah debate. After all his pathetic little efforts wasted, mr.Saxena turned around to claim that he had `played` me (maybe this word means something else in `Indian`) but he refused to elaborate exactly how... in came shankar with his insults and then saxena with more of his own insults and then harimau joined the lot, in typical Indian fashion. If this is the measure of their pathetic internet victories and their gratification at making imaginary bakras in their mind, I fear that even if one responds to an Indian, he/she is a bakra.

Actually I have narrowed this down to a science... What will Saxena bring up next? Rutgers perhaps?? or the Prophet?? Odds of Saxena bringing up Rutgers and the Ivy League 3 to 1, Prophet`s descendants? 5 to 1, the job that my father offered ? 5 to 1, Pakistan`s three military defeats? 4 to 1... Jinnah`s horrible exclusivist politics? 4 to 1... Gandhi`s comparison with a porsche 911? 2 to 1 ..

Odds of Rsaxena explaining why and how Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have Daylight Savings time?? 1 in a billion.

Note: All odds based on careful calculation of probability, through an examination of Mr.Saxena last five posts.

Any bets?

-YLH

``...saying you didn`t get played doesn`t mean you didn`t...``

Dear Saxena ji maharaj,

I am not saying you didn`t play me, or that you aren`t the greatest of all players... I just wanted to know what in #79 particularly did you think you played? Was it that I avoided the Gandhi debate... cuz I am sorry, I thought if I did indulge in it I would have played into your hands... clearly I was wrong..

I am just trying to learn from the best... won`t you help me out ?

faithfuly yours

YLH

``...saying you didn`t get played doesn`t mean you didn`t...``

Dear Saxena ji maharaj,

I am not saying you didn`t play me, or that you aren`t the greatest of all players... I just wanted to know what in #79 particularly did you think you played? Was it that I avoided the Gandhi debate... cuz I am sorry, I thought had if I did indulge in it I would have played into your hands...

I am just trying to learn from the best... won`t you help me out ?

faithfuly yours

YLH

Dear sirs (harimau, shankar, rsaxena)

How are you?

I most regretfuly must inform you (rsaxena) and your wellwishers that you suffer from the Saddam Hussain syndrome brought about most definitely by that iodine deficiency I talk about... (which is probably also the reason that now you are denying your claim that DST depends on Time Zones and Pakistan and your tendency towards irrelevancy such bringing gandhi jinnah etc). You know just because Saddam Hussain claims he defeated the US in the Gulf war (analogous to India`s claims in `65), and will defeat the US again .. doesn`t mean that it really happened.

As regards your insults, no doubt your best friends here will appreciate that I have brought you to your barbaric worst so much so that you are shouting insults like a crazed maniac. To borrow the phrase from your distinguished compatriot ... you sir are `compulsively abusive`...

Personally I love dogs (I have four of them mashallah) so I don`t have any problem associating with them. So don`t waste your precious typewriting on calling me a dog.. How about thinking up a creative insult for a change...

Faithfuly yours

Yasser

Arjun: Ur far away from the jinnah/ghandi/india/paki nonsense u were building on earlier (so we`ll let that slide).

``only one color matters..green.``

Not trying to knock ur hustle, but i dont get along well with paper chasers (theyll do anything to get their greens).

Anyone,

What is this business about bycotting starbucks? Please enlighten me? Nobody makes a cup of coffee as good as them.

Ref rsaxena #: 101

[...every now and then, it`s fun to toss a ball and watch your dog chase it down and bring it back...even if you`ve done it a thousand times, you still continue to do it...simple pleasures of life....]

In my case, my dog wants the ball thrown. He needs the exercise and the pleasure of chasing and catching SOMETHING, now that he has been neutered.

Oh my God, does THAT explain Yasser?

Ref arjun_m #: 104

[i know indians working on banking projects in colombia too. only one color matters..green.]

Don`t tell me you ran into (or know) the same guys from Kimble Software that I ran into in Bogota!

By the way, Kimble is an Irish company with a development arm in Bangalore. Their banking software is either buggy beyond belief or the Irish don`t know how to manage software projects. The Indians I met were already there for 18 months trying to fix it all.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

fawad

[you ever encountered an iranian who is a practicing muslim i mean damn its harder than finding good chelo kebab on the east coast how is tehranangles i heard sabzeh gormeh is take out and the dokhtars are just aaaaakh jaaaaan!]

You can`t find good chelo kebab on the east coast?? bichare! Good reason for you to learn how to cook it yourself, no? :) I would tell you how `Tehrangeles` is, had I been there, thankfully the part of Los Angeles I went to was relatively free of Persians!!! Gormeh sabzi take-out place, maan, I would be there just about every day, if it was good! As for the dokhtars being just `aaaakh jaaaan`...not only in Teherangeles, yaar..not only in Teherangeles!

As for whether I have ever encountered an iranian who is a `practicing` Muslim..the answer is that the iranians I`ve encountered for the most part are either atheists or another kind of -ist. Very few `practicioners`

P.S. If you should ever as a Pakistani (or Indian) offer rice pudding to an Iranian, please don`t offer it as `kheer`..(unless you`ve got sex on you mind!). Kheer refers to a penis in Farsi..and man did we get some good laughs out of that when I offered kheer to a Persian. :)))

Fawad,

Yaar, why do you oversimplify Kashmir and Palestine? And why don`t you admit that most reasonable people condemn violence used on either side in either country? Why does every Paki boy child insist that the Palestian Issue is all Israel`s fault?

Jeez louise, come up with something new for godsakes!

re: shrinker

{you still enjoy playing with that chut?! how many times do you want to catch the same fish & release it into the pond...again & again..?}

...every now and then, it`s fun to toss a ball and watch your dog chase it down and bring it back...even if you`ve done it a thousand times, you still continue to do it...simple pleasures of life....

re: fawad

{nwsflash:jinnah gandhi and einstein are dead i mean does it matter?}

...newsflash: don`t you ever say that again...jinnah lives in ylh...

re: ylh

...saying you didn`t get played doesn`t mean you didn`t...

...btw, still lying about DST?...tsk tsk tsk...no shame...another jinnah habit you seem to have picked up...remember his forked tongue flip-flop comments about kashmir that you refused to address directly?...

...say, you`re a fortunate man, what with being the prophet`s great

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

yassser dude i liked the shirt from the front actually but it see it had ur name on it ............everyone KNOWS AYOU ARE YASSER YOU DONT NEED AN INTRO .........like faisal the sindhi once said,``if you are muslim, you know yasser`` as for those girls none were hejabi i dont mock ur shirt i dont know its just unfamiliar ........r u sure only pakistani americans

paki girls at rutgers and the whole palestine thing

i agree with you 100 per cent the same girls who boycott starbucks and make posters about palestine dont know a damn about kashmir

like i once asked this girl: why dont u boycott indian movies for god sakes at least be consistent !!!!or dont boycott at all................i know what those girls said about me that im stupid yeah whatever this coming from english and middle eastern studies majors oooo thats hard ................

hi fawad,

I think its a very sensible thing that Pakistani courts have asked shrinks to testify in blasphemy cases. In mental illnesses like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, patients can get grandiose delusions. Thats one of the classic symptoms. I`ve seen many patients who claimed they were God, Moses, Jesus Christ etc... So, its concievable that a psychotic person in a conservative country like Pakistan, could proclaim that he is the ``next prophet`` or he`s greater than Prophet Mohammed. Its a good thing that the poor guy is sent to court & not stoned to death or lynched by an irate mob.

When I was a resident, one of my first patients was a schizophrenic who was comitted to the psychiatric unit (against his will, ofcourse) because he claimed that he was Moses.

Our conversation went something like this:

Patient: ``You godamned fcuking shrink..you better discharge me from this hospital..dont you know one day you will answer to God for doing this to His prophet Moses?!``

Me: ``Er...sir..if you are the prophet Moses, why dont you just part the walls of this hospital & leave? Afterall, if you`ve parted the Red Sea, something like this would be a piece of cake for you!``

Patient: ``thats why you are just a stupid doctor & I`m a prophet!! dont you know that this is the 20th century?! God has told me that I`m not allowed to perform anymore miracles in the 20th century! What the HECK do they teach you in that idiotic medical school, you went to?!!``

Oh well, why do you think I`ve developed a thick skin?:) So when a psycho on Chowk insults me, I dont get offended, I just roll on the floor laughing.. Practising psychiatry may sometimes be harrowingly frustrating, difficult, may not pay as much as other specialities, but its NEVER EVER boring:)!

As far as the psychologist vs psychiatrist feud..in the 80s, when I was doing my residency in Long Island,NY, there was a deadly ``khunnas`` between the 2 professions. We used to have psychologists supervising our psychotherapy patients. One butthead psychologist supervisor even had the balls to tell me that ``the only reason psychiatrists are more successful in treating schizophrenia is because nowadays they TALK to their patients & not ``snow`` them with pills!``

Its been 20 yrs since then & let me tell you that psychologists have really come around (in Michigan, atleast). One of my biggest referal source is psychologists. They sometimes advocate their patients to see a psychiatrist & get on medications LOUDER than other doctors! Its cos a few psychologists got their asses sued & lost their pants in court. They used to tell their depressed patients NOT to take medications. When some of those patients comitted suicide, their families successfully sued them for malpractice.

It BURNS them that psychopharmacology has made significant strides in the last 20 yrs & many types of mental illness are now successfully treated with medications. Scientists are on the threshold of greater inventions & discoveries in ``CNS disorders``. Paxil has already been approved by the FDA for treating ``extreme shyness`` (social anxiety disorder). Believe me; it works! Now psychologists are clamoring for ``prescription priviledges``...hah! the powerful AMA has successfully blocked them from doing so:)

None of the medications I prescribe today were available 20 yrs ago, when I was doing my residency. Great strides have been made in this field & even greater strides are going to be made in the next 20 yrs. But I`m a great believer in the value of psychotherapy..there are many many issues that a ``pill`` will not resolve...so the baby shouldnt be thrown out with the bathwater.

OTOH, I`m very cynical about psychoanalysis. There is not a SHRED of evidence that psychoanalysis works! I guess its worthwhile if you have money to burn & have the luxury of making an introspective journey into your own mind & understand how your mind works. But in terms of it being THERAPEUTIC...(by todays definition), its a waste of time.

Classic examples are Woody Allen & Barbara Streisand. They have been in analysis for decades now. They have probably spent enough money on their analyists, to make the latter buy homes in the Hamptons. But Goddamnit, they are STILL as neurotic as ever!:)

Hey! I think your career plans are great. Just some unsolicited advice, if you dont mind...choose a career based on what interests you..not based on how financially rewarding it is...its better to be happy than rich!:)).

I hope I didnt bore you with my long post...

Dear Fawad,

``re: yasser ` s famous -green-yasser-my-name-is-on -the back -in case-you didnt know-tshirt``

A small clarification: It was my shirt from my High school`s Men`s Hockey team from the All-Lahore Schools competition ... We won the tournament three times and I was a part of the team all three times.

Ofcourse I can`t explain the sentimental value a shirt like that holds for an International student in a foreign land, so I don`t expect you to understand. Your mockery is sad but don`t worry I will live. Haven`t you ever seen a football jock wear his high school number? Well we didn`t have numbers... we had our names on our backs... so I apologize if I offended you by wearing my shirt.

I find it amazing though that only Pakistani-Americans seemed to be offended (that too in your testimony)... a lot of non-Pakistanis seemed to like it a lot... infact even some of the more decent Indians came up to me and asked me if I was from Pakistan (it said Choueifat Pakistan in the front remember) curious to find out more about Pakistan... and lahore...

Sincerely

-YLH

Dear Shankar,

Sirkar you are as always accurate in your brilliant assessment of the situation... As your highness has accurately judged, I have been bleated by clever and witty Rsaxena...

Respectfuly and most humbly I must, given that I am a lowly simpleton bakra who is made to squirm at every witty and clever Indian`s whim, inquire what in my response #79 was indicative of this ? Because I desperately want to learn from the masters of sarcasm and wit...



Fawad,

`Paki-girls`

Surely you are not committing sacrilege by calling those Arab-style Hijabis with IQs less than the numerical value of room temperature in an Alaskan Winter `Paki-girls`??

Come on man... Give me a BREAK! Perhaps you shouldn`t have been so lilly livered and gone up to them to inform them that the Kefiyas they are wearing to show their Arabness doesn`t make them Arab. I mean the stuff they said about you... you know the Razias, the Sehers, the Nadias, the Afsheens, of Rutgers? Please don`t confuse those Hijabi ABCDs with `Paki-girls` or Pakistani girls... Pakistani young women are amongst the brightest in the world...

Sincerely

YLH

Poor `bleated Bakra` of a soul: Me

Payaray Rsaxena ji,

App ki choti choti kushian... chalo I won`t break your heart... Here is how you brilliantly bleated me into the following reply.. oh God how could I have been such a `bakra`:

I wrote in #79: ``By the way your predilection to irrelevancy never ceases to amaze me ... now Gandhi, whatever his achievements and claim to fame (I hope and pray that it is not simply because Dr.King and Einstein said so and so about gandhiji) has nothing to do with the fact that you think `Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have daylight savings time`... the fact is that you need to have some more of that iodized salt... I fear that the deficiency permanently voided your brain cells (which might be the reason why you are starting with the Gandhi hagiography on this board).``

Truly an amazing achievement... (though it might incomprehensible to me) by the way I am still confused as to how you came to the pure genius of a conclusion that `Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have DST`??

Can you please elaborate for us lesser mortals?

-YLH

ana heres a serious qn:you ever encountered an iranian who is a practicing muslim i mean damn its harder than finding good chelo kebab on the east coast how is tehranangles i heard sabzeh gormeh is take out and the dokhtars are just aaaaakh jaaaaan!

yasser and sax

newsflash:jinnah gandhi and einstein are dead i mean does it matter?

Arjun: Logic 101. Ur saying that the white man`s perception of India will determine what he INVESTS (A premise u just threw in) in the nation. This is a FACT.

What Im saying is that the white mans PERCEPTION of India does not by itself make India Great or ``civilized`` or whatever ur trying to say.

The point is that ur saying nuthing. WHO CARES What white people think of Ganhdi? What the fukk have u done to carry his torch? Simple minded people like u get tremendous ego boosts cuz the world ASSOCIATES GREATNESS with them. U did not make india what it is. Fukk ur cructhes, be a man and stand by urself.

That I come from Canada does nort mean i take VAIN/IDLE pride in Canada being ``civilized.``

fawad :)

[anwyway we should go to starbucks unless then again if you boycott them and talk about literature and other intellectual stuff]

--how could I let this go without responding? I had boycotted Starbucks for quite a while, until one morning..I needed that cuppa so desperately..and starbucks is right across the street where i live, so the transgression occurred, `nyways..our cuppas will have to be virtual for now since I think we are on opposite coasts..but if there is a Torrefazione in your neighborhood (or any hole in the wall cafe will do) then perhaps a cuppa will be in order..but please don`t expect me to wax eloquently on literature and all things intellectual. I flail my hands and arms around faster than I talk and my intellectual conversations eventually take what Abba huzoor called the inane and trivial details path regarding movies. Who cares if Anthony Quinn danced at the end of Zorba the Greek with one broken foot?!?! But I can make an argument for the old ladies who lay in wait for the foreign woman to die, and as she took her last, swooped down on the house, devouring vultures that they were, and tore the place apart, claiming their booty..and point out to my students that that scene brings up the issue of women being pacifists by nature...been a long day. :)

saxena,

you still enjoy playing with that chut?! how many times do you want to catch the same fish & release it into the pond...again & again..?

..i think you like watching him shag with his tongue..

re: ylh #79

...and you said i couldn`t get you to bleat at will...hahahaha...bacchey, you just got played...again...

fawad :) CAUTION: long post ;)

I was wondering what you were up to. Not much going on here. Soon to join the ranks of the unemployed (`opefully not for long) My lovely yet lowly presence on Chowk will diminish considerably within the next few weeks..and will miss inter-acting with some of the bachche log and some of the buzorgs, but `nyways...

you asked me about the bombings...are you referring to what happened in Murree earlier this week with the masked gunmen? `Course I was saddened to read about that, more so for the people who died at the hands of these faceless `buzdils`. I know people who went to that school years ago, I`ve visited it myself, and clearly it was targeted because a) it is Christian and more importantly b)it is an American school where most of the student population is American, or British, or Australian or Filipino. A school whose administration and students have not had much IF any problems with the local community around them. This is a school whose alumni have returned after their college educations to give back not just to the school, but to continue their love affair with Pakistan, developed in their youth.

As for whether I fear for the Christian population there, at this point I fear for the entire country, but almost everyday, I think I`m going to get that phone call from my mother who lives a few hours away from me, telling me `bout something horrible happening to our relatives in Pakistan, or friends that we know, or the community as a whole. My mother,however, feels that so much fear and worrying does not help and prayers do. :) I remember as a child being ridiculed for being a ``Issaiyee`, and my inability to respond to that in any way other than silence and tears..except for the one time I wrote the note `may you all burn in hell forever`, and guess who got in trouble! I have no illusions or delusions regarding the treatment of Christians (or any minority) in Pakistan. And since I`ve already spoken about this on another board..I don`t want to go too further into it, except to paraphrase what a dear friend said, which is that once we begin respecting each other as individuals and equals then and only then can we progress as a society and abolish these laws that strangle us right now. So yes, I am worried about Christians, no, I am not very hopeful, and I`m not really sure how most Pakistani Christians feel `cept that quite a few of us are quite content to be what Bapsi Sidhwa described the Parsi community in `Cracking India` as being the sugar in the milk, only it seems that some of the more ignorant folk cannot stand having sugar in their milk :) Pakistan is their home, and hate crimes against them will not force them to leave what has been their home for generations and generations, sadly some of them don`t have the means to either, unless they are helped by friends/familia already in the US, or England, or Australia, or wherever they are.

One of my favorite songs by Bob Marley often comes to mind when I think about the world we live in now, this world that many of us are bringing children into. The song is Redemption Song, and these particular lyrics are what stay in my mind: Emancipate yourself from mental slavery/None but ourselves can free our minds/Have no fear for atomic energy/Cause none of them can stop the time/How long shall they kill our prophets/While we stand aside and look/Some say its just a part of it/We`ve got to fulfill the book/Won`t you help to sing these songs of freedom/Cause all I ever had, redemption songs.

We are still killing our prophets, and the barrage never seems to end. Peace!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: yasser ` s famous -green-yasser-my-name-is-on -the back -in case-you didnt know-tshirt

yasser do remember this one

we were eating at the campus center or sitting on bush it was in a booth and my cousin was in the back and i said .........you get up and all those paki girls were like pointing and laughing .........dude why do you wear that shirt???????? they eveb asked me why doesnt he take the letters off!!!! yasser that shirt is eccentric at the very least!!!!!!

ps how is saif whats he up too?

yasser

so you are doing ur LLB at Punjab ..........cool i hope you join the ranks of asma jengahir and her like .......we need more secular lawyers in pak man !!! i was wondering have you interacted with pakistani christians in pakistan how do these guys feel ..........it pisses me off that we have these yahoos but i feel sorry for them i dont want these militants to be just put in jail i went them to put down their guns and go home !!! i want them to get married and have jobs and be happy ..........i want them to be constructive citizens .................

ana

we havent talked on chowk in a while whats up i like our e-conversations on chowk a lot i get to learn a lot from you how do you feel about these recent bombing do you fear for the xian population in pak how do you other paki xians feel(this might be offensive paki)

anwyway we should go to starbucks unless then again if you boycott them and talk about literature and other intellectual stuff

shankar

whats up doc? long time no talk guess what they want shrinks to testify in blaspehmy cases in a pak looool what do u think of pHD pyschologists is there a rivalry? hey i decided im going to do a residency in ID pharmacy practice i want to be a clinical PharmD not bad as it seems!!!

rsaxena

dude when are we going clubbing !!!!!! i heard mad parties are going down india and paki day parades man !!!! ps club excess jersey shore very happening !!!!!

why this incessant babbling on pakis i thought you were above this .................

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

YLH

Can you please contact and update me. BTW ``hobbes`` because of problems with ``hobbyty``

Rsaxena,

Oh wow So you (a mighty ivy leaguer) finally came across Einstein`s statement about the great and one true God almighty aka Gandhi? I think Arjunm answered your question even if he did so in sarcasm...

By the way your predilection to irrelevancy never ceases to amaze me ... now Gandhi, whatever his achievements and claim to fame (I hope and pray that it is not simply because Dr.King and Einstein said so and so about gandhiji) has nothing to do with the fact that you think `Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have daylight savings time`... the fact is that you need to have some more of that iodized salt... I fear that the deficiency permanently voided your brain cells (which might be the reason why you are starting with the Gandhi hagiography on this board).



fawad,

Yaar I have been busy with a lot of things... plus my email accounts were wiped out ....

`South Asianism` isn`t making inroads into Pakistan nor in the US... Pakistanis are a proud people who believe in peace and prosperity of all of the world, and with these bombings in Pakistan which destroy our commerce, and in India which end up making the legitimate Kashmir cause look bad... Pakistanis are becoming more and more weary of the `Jihadist` mentality cultivated by an unelected leadership in the 1980s... True Liberalism is now making inroads in Pakistan.

You have to realize that Pakistan exists and by that virtue it is a concrete reality which can`t be harmed by ideologies... No one is going to subvert our sovereignty, be they Arabs, Afghans or Indians...

You can`t make a judgement based on experiences with a bunch of uneducated losers of Pakistani origin from New Jersey... the Problem with New Jersey`s Pakistanis is not `South Asianism`... it is Islamism... it is their tendency to lick the ugly arab behinds... that is the problem.. which Pakistanis there have to deal with...

Dear Arjunm,

``the chances of the RSS being banned in the US are less than the chances of romair actually wearing a tshirt with a paki flag and roaming the streets of nyc.``

I am sorry I don`t understand this statement... I don`t about Romair but I wear my Pakistani shirt with my name Yasser on the back(I even attended a Israel solidarity rally with that shirt) everywhere including NYC (and unlike you would like to believe, I still have a valid visa status in the US if I wish to return)... Perhaps you didn`t realize but Pakistani flags were flying over town hall on 2nd May this year when Junoon played there... infact the only responses I got were `Your President seems to be a very decent man` in response to which I explained that Musharraf was a Military dictator and that there were many others equally or even more decent leaders in Pakistan...

Anyway... must you always be so negative about Pakistan? Did you read my post addressed to you on the other board?

-YLH

Arjun

You are exactly correct about ``perceptions``. Also I doubt very much if Pakistan will ever be percieved in friendly terms in USA - in fact I think it is an impossibility, now and in the future, unless thinking in US changes.

For my money, I hope the thinking in the US does not change, not any time soon.

A period of criticism and introspection, not just navel gazing but really critical evaluation has begun in Pakistan and among Pakistanis; it is a most liberating experience and already good has begun to come from it - the more we can look clearly, think clearly, identify our defiencies, the more confident we can be that the problems will be resolved.

As long as Pakistan is denied a crutch, Pakistan and Pakistanis will learn that they can make it on their own.

Heyu Arjun_m

First The Infosys.....PHINEESHED

Now VSNL Indias Nationalised Govt controlled enteprise of Monopoly is bleeding no matter its govt ..but Hindians will pay ultimately

http://headlines.sify.com/popwin.html

VSNL risks losing Rs 441 crore, thanks to Worldcom

New Delhi, Aug 6 Videsh Sanchar Nigam Ltd is facing a risk of losing anywhere between Rs 294 crore to Rs 441 crore which it has yet to recover from US long distance telephony giant, WorldCom. VSNL Director Operations, N. Srinath today said while the company remains optimistic that its relationship with WorldCom will continue to be mutually beneficial and that VSNL will collect its dues from WorldCom, there are risks inherent in any bankruptcy proceedings. ``There can be no assurance that VSNL will be able to collect its WorldCom receivables or that VSNL will not be adversely affected by WorldCom`s financial difficulties.`` WorldCom is one of VSNL`s major carrier partners with whom the Indian company exchanges significant US -bound traffic. The relationship between the companies is governed by a tariff arrangement with WorldCom which was declared bankrupt recently. WorldCom filed the biggest bankruptcy in history on July 21 after revealing a 3.85 billion dollar mishandling of its books but has pledged to maintain operations that include the No. 2 US long-distance service and half the world`s Internet traffic. But WorldCom will transfer two million customers at its money-losing wireless unit to other providers. For the year ended March 31, 2002, gross revenues from WorldCom represented approximately 14 per cent of VSNL`s total operating revenues. On March 31,2002, balances due from WorldCom represented approximately Rs 221 crore (approx 45 million dollars). Till end of July 2002, VSNL estimates that it has an exposure of approximately Rs 294 crore to Rs 441 crores to Worldcom.

arjun_m

various posts...

I`m just trying to figure you out..

bear with me:)

too bad we cant communicate with visual cues like facial expression & body language..

So you are out to prove that the ``civilised world`` has a much worse perception about Pakistan than India?!

If your intention is to argue with the 12 headed monster..then thats OK....personally, I think thats a waste of time & energy.

If your intention is to bait ylh...please please dont...as an ``relative old timer`` on Chowk...I`ve listened to that bakra bleating too many times here...it was entertaining for a while, now its getting annoying.

When he starts verbally masterbating, all of us better duck for cover...the tone of his posts start rising in crescendo & ends in an ecstatic shower of..er..whats the word?...``come``!..when he gloriously announces ``I won my argument!! I won my argument!!!``....& then he starts masterbating all over again...even for the 20-something he is remarkably immature...woh kabhi sudherne wallah nahih hai....please have some mercy on me!

But; seriously; so what if India`s perception is better than Pakistan? The ``civilised world`` doesnt compare India with Pakistan..they compare India with China..& in many many ways; India`s performance in development has been awful, compared to the Chinese. Its a good thing there are no Chinamen on Chowk..they could come with a 1000 ``Indian t-shirt`` posts.

Secondly, eventhough India`s perception is better..in very very important respects it doesnt make that much of a difference. The civilised world..esp the country that really matters, US....would rather tilt towards a shitpot like Pakistan that bends over backwards to further American interests; than a shitopt like India that will ``proudly`` take an independant stance.

Do you think the US (or the rest of the world) really gives a sh it about Kashmir or India or Pakistan?! They are getting involved because they dont want their policy of eradicating Al-Qeeda hampered by annoying things like an Indo-Pak war.

Maybe I`m cynical, but in foreign policy, EVERY country looks PRIMARILY at ``interests``...concepts like ``ideology`` etc are for domestic consumption. If there is an ``ideology`` that the US LOVES (but never admits to, publicly) is a compliant dictator who is easily led by the nose by them. Eventhough he acts like a tough SOB; Mushy plays that game beautifully.

Proud Pakistani soldierboys are so obssessed with ``standing tall`` in front of India, that they will maintain their ``honor`` by licking Uncle Sam`s butt, if they have too. He`s earned the title Busharraf! India may have an IT industry. Pakistan has an ``aid industry`` that makes them billions. Even a third rate tinpot dictator like Zia performed brilliantly in promoting that industry.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: ylh

...do you know what einstein said about gandhi?...check it out...

{Albert Einstein once told the president of Howard University that Gandhi was ``the greatest man of the 20th century.`` The president of Howard replied that a lot of people thought that title

belonged to Dr. Einstein.

```Oh, no,` Dr. Einstein said. `I know where I stand. I have been working on increasing mankind`s power. Gandhi has been working on increasing the ability of mankind to use that power more humanely.```}

hey yasser whats up man ?????????? how come you dont deign to respond to my emails yaar? nice to see you back on chowk drop me a line man?

so tell me is south asianism making its inroads in lahore is it is over here?

peace

you friend

fawad

Dear Sadna and Jay,

Given your obsession with Pakistan, and your willingness to take the official line, are you aware of the possibilities young and enterprising Hinduvtists like yourself in the US might have?

This only goes to show that the `evil` Pakistan`s enemies are also the enemies of true Indian secularism (if there is such a thing).

http://www.dawn.com/2002/08/06/letted.htm#2

Fund raising abroad for RSS

The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Bajrang Dal, and other Hindu extremist organizations, collectively known as the Sangh Parivar, are utilizing religion to foment communal violence towards organizing ultra right, non-secular and undemocratic nationalism in India.

Minorities in contemporary India are becoming the evil `other` that must be annihilated or assimilated. For those of us not explicitly under attack, it is time to examine our privilege and use it to empower the conscience of a democratic and secular India.

Hindu fundamentalism is well funded by Indians abroad. These organizations receive substantial contributions from Hindus in the United States and elsewhere. The Outlook magazine in its July 22 issue published an article by A.K. Sen, titled, Deflections to the right highlighting a component of the chain of funding that sustains Hindu extremism.

The article states that the India Development and Relief Fund (IDRF) is one of the more conspicuous charity organizations that raises funds in the United States to support RSS battalions in India. The IDRF lists Sewa International as its counterpart in India. Sewa International and the various organizations that it oversees receive over two-thirds of IDRF funding.

In the United States, where substantial funding is raised for Hindu extremist agendas, the government must act to ensure that organizations that broker terror should not continue to enjoy their non-profit status within the country.

It is interesting that in 1999, the VHP failed to gain recognition at the United Nations as `a cultural organisation` because of its philosophical underpinnings. However, the VHP of America is an independent charity registered in the United States in the 1970s, where it has received funds from a variety of individuals and organizations.

Non-resident Indians and Americans of Indian descent must examine the politics of hate encouraged by extremist Hindu organizations in the name of charity and social work. Indians, one of the most financially successful groups in the United States, must take seriously their moral obligation to ensure that their dollars are not funding malice and scrutinize the organizations that are on the receiving end in India.

ANGANA CHATTERJI

San Francisco, USA

rsaxena,

You`ll have me `bleating` ha ha ... dream on. First try to understand that DST is not dependant on latitudes...

Then speak of `bleating` anyone ok?

jay,

I usually ignore your nonsense given that you are an uneducated fool who is utterly obsessed with Pakistan: `Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have Daylight savings time`.

To illustrate my `alleged` obsession with India you speak of my Sher Shah Suri article. A few days ago the very moderate Irfan Hussain mentioned Sher Shah as an example for all rulers who wish to do good for their people. Is he obsessed with India too... Sher Shah Suri was also a ruler of what is now Pakistan in case you forgot. His GT Road goes all the way to Attock in case you didn`t know... he built a beautiful fort near Jehlum which he named after Rohtas, his fort in Bengal... and his public work programmes like Bowlies he built along roadsides and trees that he planted still have remains in Pakistan. If by mentioning the fact that certain Hinduvtists are planning on destroying his mausoleum is being obsessed with India... then what will you call your 24/7 lies and accusations against Pakistan?

Tilak and Gokhale were identified as Political mentors by Mohammed Ali Jinnah who is Pakistan`s founder... Jinnah was the hired counsel for Tilak almost everytime he got arrested... and the freedom struggle isn`t your monopoly. If I choose to write about Tilak and gokhale ... it is my decision and that has nothing to do with India... remember I am didn`t write an article called `Advani and Vajpayee`.

So why don`t you shut up and give your perverse logic and stop obsessing over Pakistan and Pakistanis... instead do something to alleviate the tremendous hardship of those poor and destitute people called the Indians especially those who are burnt alive because of their religion?

-YLH

ps: Is it really your creed to put everything in reverse... for example the other Pakistan-obsessed loser Sadna started cursing at Pakistan and when I responded in kind, she blissfuly informed me that I am a `compulsive abusive` ... check out her recent farcial attempt to prove that she is not obsessed with Pakistan...

Arjun: ``i just said the civilized world has a better impression of india than pakiland. i have never said gandhi was better than jinnah(i could care less)..i just said jinnah is a nobody and a lot of average joes think gandhi is some sort of saint(hilarious i know)``

It is a pathetic waste that an introspective magnificent place now has the likes of u to defend itself. What does the ``civilized world`` (Read: ALL WHITE PEOPLE, who uv magically polled) have to do with whether or not something is true? A FACT is a FACT regardless of the reputation of whomever upholds it.

You just keep proving what ive been saying for time, chowk is full of idiots.

Congratulations to all Pakistanis.

One of the Magsaysay Awards for 2002 went to Dr. Ruth Pfau, a German nun who has worked for four decades providing medical assistance, particularly to lepers, in the Northern Areas.

I hope all Pakistanis take as much pride in Dr. Pfau and her work and consider her one of them as Indians do Mother Teresa.

A hint to all those who run madrassahs in Pakistan: Another award went to Sandeep Pandey, an Indian who founded ASHA which runs education/self-help projects throughout India. So, you guys are on the right track. You might just want to revise your curriculum.

Imagine they were Christian missionaries, or Islamic terrorists

By S Gurumurthy

All four of them were kidnapped, over two years ago, in August 1999. By a leading purveyor of terrorism in Tripura, the National Liberation Front of Tripura. The Indian intelligence knows that the American-powered Baptist Church, which keeps spreading the poison of separatism among the tribals of North East, fully backs this terrorist outfit.

Now, after two years it has been confirmed that the terrorists have snuffed out the kidnap victims. Both the Central Government and the Tripura Government have confirmed their deaths. But most Indians are unaware of the abduction earlier and of their death now.

Why was this abduction the least known? Why no screaming headlines day after day. Why no stinging editorials week after week. No biting criticisms from secular columnists. No statements from secular intellectuals. No accusation from secular leaders or their parties. No adjournment or other motions in Lok Sabha. No storming of the well, no strangulation of the Rajya Sabha asking to dismiss the Tripura government. Why?

Simple. Though highly dedicated social workers, the victims happened to be Hindus. Worse still, they were all RSS men. But, not one of them is an ordinary RSS worker; every one a responsible leader of the organization.

Shyamal Sengupta was the secretary of the RSS for the entire Eastern India. Sudhamoy Dutta was a fulltime worker of RSS in charge of the Agartala segment. Dinendra Nath Dey was in charge of the organisation in South Assam. And Subha Shankar Chakraborty was a full time worker of the organization in charge of a district in Tripura. They were kidnapped and killed precisely because they were fighting the violent separatist elements in the North East like the National Liberation Front of Tripura.

Since Independence, North East India has become the hunting ground for different denominations of the Christian churches for their religious head count through organized and un-resisted conversions. Nowhere in the world churches of all denominations are allowed to hunt the less informed people as in India; more importantly, as in the North East. Most of the foreign churches carry their national flag. The Anglican Church carries the British Flag. The Lutheran the German flag. The Baptist the American flag. So do the Danish, Dutch and all other national churches. They carry their flags and politics wherever they go. There is more of politics, global politics, than Christianity in the work of most national churches. The geo-political designs of the US internalize the role of the church. It is such geopolitical designs of the West during the cold war, which handed over drugs and guns to the youth of the North East. And this is what extended terrorism and separatism to others in the most sensitive area of our country.

International aid money for religious conversions to drug funds operate in this region to make the tribals believe that they have nothing to do with India, as to disfigure India. The sermon of most of the foreign national churches to the less informed tribals is that they are distinct and separate. So they must become separate from India. This is what these four kidnapped and killed patriots were resisting and fighting against.

But it is workers like them who rush to render relief to the victims of flood or drought, earthquakes or other disasters. When the Russian and Saudian aircraft had a mid-air collision near Delhi, and all mutilated bodies, most of them of Muslims, were strewn around, it was the RSS workers who rushed first to the spot and took charge of everything, including the cremation of the stinking flesh remains, and restoration of the valuables. Even its worst detractors admit that be it war times or at peace time, the work of the RSS has been commendable. But their good work goes mostly unreported by the media. Nevertheless the media puts them on the front page whenever it has to, for precisely the wrong reasons. But anyway they do not work to get the media attention. Like in work, in their kidnapping and death administered by the terrorists also, the four patriots have been denied recognition. But they did not work or die to get the recognition of any.

Imagine it was the other way round. Had the kidnapped and killed been Christian missionaries. Let it be just one missionary, not four. What would the secular editors, newspapers, columnists have not said. ``barbaric communalism at work`` ``secularism in danger`` ``fascism at play`` and what not. What would not the secular political leaders and parties have done? Would they have allowed Parliament to function? The completely fabricated nun rape case in Jhabua in Madhya Pradesh had debilitated the nation`s mind for months and months. Thanks to the secular megaphones in the media and politics, the whole world was made to believe that it was some kind of pastime in India to rape nuns. Even after the incident was proved fabricated, not a single accuser withdrew his word. Not a single newspaper expressed regret. Not a single political leader regretted his hysterical conduct. Not a single political party expressed guilt at having misled the nation. The less said about those Christian leaders, who took millions of captive school children on to the streets to protest against the false rape, the better. Now the court in Jhabua has explicitly ruled that there was no communal rape. Most newspapers did not even report the court verdict, thus serving the cause of secularism.

Even if the killed four had been Islamic terrorists, there would be enough secular elites and editors who would walk up to the Wagah border with candles in their hands to plead for peace so that no more killings take place. It is a different matter that they would not have the guts to walk in the streets of Srinagar and Anantnag with the same message of peace. Their struggle for peace is conditioned by assured protection, which the government can give at Wagah, not in Kashmir.

This is the drift in the national mind. This is what made V P Singh who was the prime minister (when the Kashmiri Hindus were thrown out of their domicile of thousands of years on to the streets of Delhi) not to visit the Kashmiri Hindus who had become refugees in their own land of birth. They were at the refugee camps in Delhi, a stone`s throw from the PMs office and home. He knew the rule of Indian polity that it was un-secular to meet the Jihad victims who belonged to the majority faith. He never saw them till he ceased to be the PM and even after. It is not without reason that he is an unquestioned leader of the secularists! It is this drift, which makes responsible editors of newspapers to arrange meetings of the Jihad-advocating-Kashmiri separatists with the elites of India. Like V P Singhs, they would not even meet the victims of Jihad, much less arrange the meetings of the victims.

The logic is clear. It will be un-secular to be seen with the victims who belong to the majority faith, but totally secular to work with the Jihadis. With those who religious head hunt in the North East. Nothing is more indicative of a drifting mind. This is what the four kidnapped patriots had fought to resist, and got kidnapped and killed.

Poll sans talks will ruin J&K PEACE PROCESS,JETHMALANI ,peacehttp://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/aug05/ijeth.htm

Poll sans talks will ruin J&K peace process: Jethmalani NEW DELHI, Aug 4 (PTI) Doubting the Centre?s initiative to ensure free and fair elections in Jammu and Kashmir, former Union law minister Ram Jethmalani today said the sudden announcement of the elections without necessary dialogue process to involve everyone in the polls would ruin the peace process. ``We do not want the elections to go the same way as it did in 1987 and 1996,`` said Mr Jethmalani, who today held a meeting of a group of private citizens christened as the ``Kashmir Committee`` to find a solution to the decade old problem.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2002080504230100.htm

Translate rhetoric into action, NHRC chief tells PM

http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2002080504230100.htm

Translate rhetoric into action, NHRC chief tells PM

By Our Staff Reporter

BANGALORE AUG. 4. The Chairman of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), J.S. Verma, said here today that the Prime Minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, must translate his rhetoric into action, and bring back religious tolerance in the country.

Speaking at a round table on combating communal hatred, at the National Law School of India University, he recalled Mr. Vajpayee`s earlier statement that he believed in the Hinduism of tolerance and respect for all, a religion that prioritised humanism. ``If things had changed...,`` the Prime Minister had then said, ``I would be far away from it.``

Hey Arjun ..Scam after scam claim always same ``Biggest ever`` Is it ever going to decrease to ``Smallest ever`` or is it like your Population inflating to the higher level.... crime, Sacam ,now Scandal of your INFOSYS sleeping with Maximovitch a bulgarian white single female........ tp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?artid=18186767



Biggest scandal since independence: Congress

#############################################



NILANJANA BHADURI JHA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ MONDAY, AUGUST 05, 2002 9:09:52 PM ]



NEW DELHI: Describing the petrol pump issue as the ``biggest scandal in independent India``, the Congress has demanded the resignation of Petroleum Minister Ram Naik, saying cancellation of allotments is not enough. The party has also conducted investigations of its own, alleging a scam of over Rs 2,500 cr.

re: ylh

...dude, if you have a problem with sadna or whoever else, go deal with them...don`t bother me or i`ll have you bleating in no time...

Chowkies

PBS DOCUMENTARY EXAMINES HINDU FUNDAMENTALISM

Soul of a Nation

Thurs., Sept. 19 at 9pm ET

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/about/film10.html

The bloody conflict between Hindus and Muslims in North Western India is at the forefront of a struggle for India`s identity, led by an increasingly powerful Hindu fundamentalist movement whose goal is to turn India into a

Hindu nation. Over the last three months, some 2,000 Muslims have been killed in the Province of Gujarat, and more than 100,000 Muslims have been

forced to flee to refugee camps. Meanwhile extremist Hindu private schools are spreading rapidly across India. Will India, home to more than a billion people, continue to be the multi-ethnic, religiously diverse, secular, and

tolerant society that Gujarat`s Mahatma Gandhi attempted to create? Or will the nation be split -- by a Hindu fundamentalist movement hoping to rise to power by fanning the winds of religious extremism?``

INDIAN CHIEF JUSTICE TO SPEAK IN MASS.

WHAT: JUSTICE A.M. AHMADI, FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE, SUPREME COURT OF INDIA TO

SPEAK ON GUJARAT

WHEN: SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 7

WHERE: WAYLAND MOSQUE (MASS.)

Ref Glen #: 47

[Wisden treated me shabbily, says Azhar] Yaaaaawn!

Didn`t this guy claim some two years back that he was named in the cricket match-fixing scandal because he is a Muslim? I really feel sorry for the other Indian Muslims who have to put up with REAL sh!t.

Screw this guy!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

India for the Indians - welcome to Pakistan or yet more homelands? For Indians to decide peacefully

From ``Daily Times`` - dtd today

``Indian Muslims should go to Pakistan or Qabristan: Hindu leader

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: The leading Hindu leader of the Ram Janam Bhoomi Temple in Ayodhya says there are only two places for Indian Muslims to go: Pakistan or Qabristan (graveyard).

Indian writer Pankaj Mishra, writing in the 15 August issue of the ?New York Review of Books,? one of the leading intellectual journals in the United States, attributes this remark to 90-year old Ramchandra Paramahans, who heads a rich and militant sect of Hindu sadhus, intent on building the mythical Ram temple at the site of the demolished Babri Mosque.

In a lengthy piece entitled ?Murder in India,? Mishra confirms that in the wake of Gujarat riots, 230 mosques and shrines, one of which was 400 years old, have been razed to the ground. Some have been replaced with Hindu temples. Close to 100,000 Muslims are still in relief camps.

He points out that Hindu police officers charged by the English-language press or human rights groups with committing atrocities against Muslims often become heroes among upper-caste Hindus. Going back into history, he highlights the fact that though many of the Muslims who invaded or ruled India then were zealots, but the majority of Indians did not convert to Islam, ?a significant fact not much discussed by the self-serving if influential early British historians of India.? Five centuries of Islam in India, he adds, made it lose its Arabian and Persian identity, as it mingled with folk traditions and became another Indian faith. ?The influences from Persia and Central Asia now coexist with indigenous traditions of distinctive languages, styles of dress, music and cuisines of South Asia.?

Mishra is of the view that the Hindu nationalists of today follow 19th century British historians in describing Muslim rulers as alien violators of national honour. He recalls that in Ayodhya, many of the temples and sects devoted to Rama were originally sponsored by the Muslim rulers of Owadh. ?To speak as BJP ideologues do of a glorious Hindu nation defiled by Muslims is to retrospectively create a nation and an awareness of nationality at a time when there were, and could have been, no such things.

The writer maintains that in today?s India, politically speaking, the Muslims are significant only during elections when they form a vote bank for Hindu politicians promising to protect them against discrimination and violence. They lack effective leadership because of their token ? and now diminishing ? presence at the highest levels of government. ?Their position is unlikely to be improved much by A.P. Abdul Kalam, the vegetarian Muslim missile scientist who fervently supports India?s nuclear buildup.? Urdu, the points out, has been relegated to a secondary place and Muslim representation in government jobs in now less than two percent. He quotes the late Indian author Nirad C. Chaudhry who wrote that the irrational fear of Muslims felt by Hindus had become much less pronounced once riots in North India showed ?the ease with which the Muslims can be slaughtered.?

Mishra writes that what is disturbing about the Gujarat riots is not so much the complicity of the Indian state in violence against the minorities as the involvement of large numbers of educated, affluent Hindus. Hindu nationalists of today, he states, find it ?safer? to channel their anti-Muslim passions into anti-Pakistan rhetoric.

?By accusing Pakistan of being the prime sponsor of terrorists in Kashmir, the government hoped to expose the contradictions in General Musharraf?s current standing as America?s trusted ally in the ?war on terrorism?. Hindu nationalists, frustrated by their inability to build the Ram temple at Ayodhya are hoping that ?posturing against Pakistan would help the BJP overcome its losses in state elections earlier this year.?

Mishra believes that Gen Musharraf?s efforts to stop the infiltration into Indian-held Kashmir could be good news not only for Hindu nationalists but also for Kashmiri Muslims, most of whom have traditionally followed a heterodox Sufi version of Islam and have grown to dislike the fanatical Pakistan-based militant groups that have targeted civilians, tried to impose restrictions of dress and movement on women, and often assassinated Kashmiris fighting for independence from both India and Pakistan.

However, even if militants from Pakistan are reined in, it would not necessarily bring peace to Kashmir, he adds.``

YLH,

You say that you are not obscessed about India, then why did you write about sher sha suris tomb in india. Tilak and gokhele have nothing to do with the pakistan of today, why did you write about about them. The entire focus of your sher sha suri article was to show his greatness as a muslim and contrast it to the condition of his tomb. Now here is a topic you should worry about, especially that you are now in that god forsaken country. For once accept that the actual condition of your people have declined in past few years, this is the time the ilks of you were sending jihadists to kashmir, and write an article linking the two. That could be of some use to some one, you could even be a honest pakistani, unlike M.tahmed. from dawn, opinion section.

``The literacy rate is down from 45 per cent in the last report to 43.2 per cent (youth literacy sliding from 62.7 to 57 per cent). Poverty has increased and now it stands at 34 per cent and Pakistan ranks 68th out of 88 developing countries (compared to 65 out of 90 in the previous report).

Which section of the people has suffered the most? Children and women. The percentage of underweight children (under five years) has jumped from 26 to 38. The use of ORT has registered a shocking fall from 48 to 19 per cent and not surprisingly the infant mortality rate has increased from 84 to 85 per 1000 live births. In the last report 1,600 children were reported as having AIDS. Their number has gone up to 2,200. Cigarette consumption, which is a pretty clear indicator of the mental, emotional and physical health of the people, has increased from 562 per adult to 620.``

MEN AND MILITARY

It always puzzled me why the ilks of romair are always praising the education system. Here is the proof, the vice chancellors are also generals, the military men have permeated all aspects of the pak society, no wonder the ilks of romair are so peeved about hoodhboy. he should have been general ahmed bin abdullah of faisalabad to have some credibility.

VC required

In the July 29 issue, Dawn carried two separate advertisements for the post of vice chancellors, one for the Government College University and the other for the University of Education. The qualification desired was Ph.D.

One may ask that when the internationally recognized University of the Punjab and the University of Engineering and Technology can have graduate generals of the army as VCs, then why have these posts been advertised?

MUHAMMAD HAFEEZ BUTT

Lahore

Paki Hater

According to tahmed my posts are hateful, yes my dear M.Tahmed. I did point out to you that the mass petition that you posted about gang rape is a dishonest propagenda by you all, the pak law requires male witnesses. What you should petition against is hodood ordinance, which the highest court of pakistan, the sheria coourt has declared as legal. The threat of fatwa, ask shankar the shrink about fatwafobia, and pure dishonesty is the driving force of the educated pakistanis.

Now go through the link in post 37, read for yourself and declare my post as hateful. Yes, I am only showing a mirror to the pak dishonesty and attempts to whitewash the social values and the foundations from which it springs, the basis of the system that legitimises the hodood ordinance. M. it is not a hateful post, it is true and hurtful to accept the fundamental social value of pakistan.

This Pankaj Mishra guy is too dismissive of `Hinduism` and also the govt. policy`s toward jihadi violence. He is outright wrong in his facts in some instances and he certainly reveals an agenda of his own. But overall he has presented a fair picture which is worth reading.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15636
Murder in India

By Pankaj Mishra

(A review of the HRWatch report on Gujarat violence)
``..That same morning, Paramhans told me, he had scolded L.K. Advani, the present home minister and one of the senior leaders of the ruling party, the BJP, who had witnessed the demolition in 1992. When I mentioned the constraints on Advani—the Supreme Court`s ban on construction, Muslim opposition Paramhans became angry. ``There are only two places Muslims can go to,`` he shouted, echoing a popular Hindu nationalist slogan of the Eighties and early Nineties, ``Pakistan or Kabristan [graveyard]...``

Dear Saxena Bhaijaan,

1) I am not changing my story. I am simply saying that a young and healthy gentleman like yourself who agrees with Mr.Jay`s claim that `Pakistan geographically too thin a country to have DST` should eat more iodized salt.

2) It is amazing how even though I seldom write and when I write it is seldom about India, I am accused of being obsessed with India, a proposterous idea... but the likes of Sadna, the sorry-a$$ losers who make it to some how blame Pakistan for all the ills in the world are not at all Pakistan obsessed are they?

Perhaps its time we realized who is obsessed with what... On the other board your illustrious countrywoman kept whining about how Pakistan was a sick country ... but when I countered her with an insult on similar lines about her country ... she claimed that I was `compulsively abusive`.

What is this hypocrisy?

-YLH

PS: Like I have said in the past... and many of your saner countrymen agree that I am not the one who initiates insults. If you can`t handle the insults in response ... don`t insult the other person in the first place.

The religion caste race state connections political affiliatiobns you name it & IT MATTERS IN THIS HOLY LAND OF RAM RAJYE

http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory_v2.jsp?article_oid=11788302&page_no=1



Wisden treated me shabbily, says Azhar

New Delhi, Aug 2







Former captain Mohammed Azharuddin has said that he has been humilated by Wisden magazine and alleged that some among the 16-shortlisted players for Indian Cricketer of the Century award worked against him.

In an interview to Outlook magazine, he said the Wisden first called him to sign a contract shortlisting him among the 16 other nominees for the award.

Azharuddin said at the last minute, he was told that his presence was not required in London and that the invitation sent to him stand cancelled.

``They called me up to say that they had made a mistake and they would not be sending me the airtickets.There was no explanation for this decision,`` he said.

According to the former captain, the contract he had signed stipulated that he would be invited to the function in London and would have to give some media interviews. After withdrawing the invitation, Wisden did not even apologise.

``You can`t treat a person so shabbily. Why did Wisden start the process in the first place? If they had any problem, then why go through the motions at all. This is humilating, to say the least.

``And finally, Wisden did not have the courtsey to inform me or write to me as why they decided not to invite me``, Azhar said and hinted that some among the 16 shortlisted players had worked against him.

Azhar who is contemplating possible legal action against Wisden said that he is ``very hurt by the unsavoury episode. It is disgusting that is all I will say. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth.``











UNI



More Headlines



Rate this story function mf() { var url=``news_mail.jsp?article_oid=``+11788302; window.open(url,`win1`,`width=450,height=250,menubar=no,toolbar=no,status=no,resizable=no,scrollbars=no,top=100,left=150`); } Send to a friend



Related Stories

Trial by fire made me stronger: Kapil 1

Further to may last post on elections in Kashmir, here is what J. M. Lyngdoh, the Chief Election Commissioner of India, had to say about Colin Powell`s suggestion that there should be foreign observers during the Kashmir poll:

``In this day and age, there is no question of the white man coming to observe what the native is doing. The white man does not determine what the coloured man doesand whether he is doing it right or wrong. They are not superior to us.``

I am reminded of Pramod Mahajan`s talk in Florida last year. He said, ``People ask what the use of IT and other technology is for a backward and poor country like India. Well, we conducted an election in which 600 million people participated and we announced the results in three days through the use of electronic voting machines. I believe the US had a problem in its presidential elections last November.``

Way to go, guys! Sock it to them!

arjun_m,

The next time you breathlessly post on Chowk how much of a shitpot Pakistan is, compared to India (metaphorically speaking, ofcourse)....please dont lose sight of the bigger picture....India is a shitpot too.

If a country acts like a shitpot & smells like a shitpot...it IS a shitpot. Doesnt matter if the shitpot next door smells better or worse.. (that, ultimately, depends upon who is taking a whiff).

Perhaps the moral of this fact is Indians better start cleaning their own shitpot first...before feeling ``good`` about the fact that the stink emanating from their neighboring shitpot is bad..

From The Sydney Morning Herald.

Preachings of an oil-hungry US

August 1 2002

Colin Powell`s credibility is damaged by his silence on Pakistan`s elections, writes Swapna Majumdar.

Colin Powell wants independent persons of international repute to monitor elections in Jammu and Kashmir in India to ensure fair and free elections in the state. The US Secretary of State`s concern for the people of Kashmir would probably have greater credibility if he had advocated the same freedom of franchise in Pakistan. General elections in Pakistan are expected in early October, around the same time Kashmir goes to the polls.

Powell was quick to voice his concern over Kashmir during last week`s visit to the Indian Prime Minister, A. B. Vajpayee, the Foreign Minister, Yashwant Sinha, and at a well-attended press conference. However, he did not deem it necessary to advise Pakistan`s President, Pervez Musharraf, during his visit to Pakistan the following day to ensure impartial elections in his country. Evidently, Powell doesn`t believe in the adage that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

It is not known whether there were any private discussions on this issue. But certainly no public statements were made by Powell about how elections should be conducted or on allowing the former Pakistan prime minister Benazir Bhutto to return to Pakistan to contest the polls. Musharraf has declared that he intends to have Bhutto arrested on corruption charges if she returns to Pakistan. Even if Bhutto decided to contest elections from behind bars, she may never become prime minister again thanks to a constitutional amendment planned by Musharraf to block persons having held office twice. Bhutto has been prime minister for two terms already.

Powell`s visit to India was prompted more by US interests than an overriding concern for the people of Kashmir. In fact, his visit to India was preceded by agreements to sell it military equipment - less than a month after the US helped calm tensions over Kashmir. But lest Pakistan sulked over this Indo-US bonhomie, military agreements were signed with it too. Clearly, the US finds it difficult to take a definitive stance against Pakistan.

Pakistan is obviously more important to the US than India in the war against terrorism . Military strategy demands a US presence in the region and it needs Pakistan`s help to punish the Taliban. Obviously, the US does not want to jeopardise its position by ruffling Musharraf`s feathers over matters like democracy.

America`s reluctance to undermine Musharraf`s position is also due to its economic interests in oil and natural gas pipelines in central Asia - which are piped down to Pakistan through central Afghanistan.

So the US is prepared to preach impartiality to India but not to Pakistan. It tells India to give Musharraf more time to come good on his promise to end cross-border terrorism but turns a blind eye when he releases most of the militant leaders in Pakistan. America wants India to understand the precariousness of Musharraf`s condition and fear the consequences of his being overthrown. However, in the present climate of strained relations between the two countries, India would probably prefer him to be overthrown.

Swapna Majumdar, an Indian journalist based in New Delhi, is working at the Herald.

I find it amusing that so many Pakistanis should find what the BJP/Hindutva brigade are doing as reprehensible.

But how exactly is their behavior that much different than what Jinnah and the Muslim league preached? Events like Direct Action Day were the Gujarat pogroms of the day and Jinnah`s rhetoric of a Muslim homeland is very similar to the Hindutva brigade of a Hindu homeland.

As they say, physician heal thyself.

Romair,

#18

Yow! its been a long time since I agreed with you! Hold the presses!..Whats absolutely amazing is that you did it without quoting any ``experts``:)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: ylh

{The article in question was about DST. The discussion was about DST. Now only an idiot would write the post that you did¡K or perhaps you thought }

...changing your story?...hehe...once an idiot always an idiot...btw, did you take the job daddy gave you?...

...oh, speaking of food, take that pickle out of your ass...it`ll really calm you down and relieve your obsession with india...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I think Gujrat riots was an one off incident, somewhat like LA racial riots of 1991 : happened in response to a specific event.

The underlying polarisation of the ethnic groups will continue for sometime - the wounds will take time to heal.

I think - any speculation about this kind of polarisation spreading to other parts of the country is unwarranted. But all the same - the civil society has to be vigilant agaist the forces of obscurantism. The need of the hour is focused economic plan/execution. Activities that distract the attention from those stated goals is totally unacceptable.

Great, while China chisels away at India & Pakistan, we will continue to argue about UN resolutions foisted on us by the same people who screwed us up in the first place.

We are such intelligent bigots. By God, I am not proud of bigots.

whatever.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref Ras Siddiqui #: 23

[India is at a turning point. If Gujrat-like situations continue, the future of that country is bleak no matter what IT companies it can presently attract.]

You mean India will become like, GASP, Pakistan?

What is so wrong about that?

After all, YLH and Salwar have been waxing poetic about Pakistan here on Chowk.

``Given em what they want`` - In the last two years, Indian diplomacy has scored unimaginable gains. It`s problems in Kashmir are now exclusively the responsibilty of Pakistan, of ``Jihadis``, a world wide atmosphere of suppression marks the attitude of almost all countries towards Muslims and Islam, to a large number of persons around the world is synonmous with terrorism. At the same time, this diplomatic success paralles economic achievement and the nationalism and Hindutva ideology has acquired national legitimacy.

Indians cliam India is a democracy - A democracy or democractic governance is never about the will of any majority - it`s the rule and supremacy of the law. Like in Pakistan, the identification of democracy with majoritarianism is a treat. Even with achievements that all will and should grant, that have been willed, a ``sentiment``, a irrationality, dressed as ``Hindutva`` and nationalism, reveal a deep sense of insecurity. Why does this insecurity exist, personally, I do not understand. The exact opposite should have been taking place.

Some Indians argue that it is Pakistan that is to blame for their deep insecurity - perhaps there is a measure of truth to it, however; is it not valid to seek answers to explain this insecurity, within India? The achievments of the last 10-15 years in India have been the result of Indians openning up to the world and themselves, perhaps the events in Gujjrat and the responsibility of mass media in propagating ideas that promote hate against fellow citizens, suggest that we mighht revisit all the assumptions we make about the depth of the economic achievments and about just what kind of role India may or should play in the world.

My friends and road fellows,

Pity the nation that is full of beliefs

and empty of religion.

Pity the nation that wears a cloth it

does not weave,

Eats a bread it does not harvest,

and drinks a wine that flows

not from its own winepress.

Pity the nation that acclaims the

bully as Hero,

And that deems the glittering

conqueror Bountiful.

Pity the nation that despises a person in

its dream,

yet submits in its awakening.

Pity the nation that raises not its voice

save when it walks in a funeral,

boasts not except among its ruins

and will rebel not save when its neck is

laid

between the sword and the block.

pity the nation whose statesman is a fox,

Whose philosopheris a juggler,

And whose art of patching and

mimicking.

Pity the nation that welcomes

it`s new ruler with trumpetings

and farewells him with hootings,

only to welcome another with

trumpetings again.

Pity the nation whose sages are dumb

with years and

whose strong men are yet in the

cradle.

Pity the nation divided into fragments,

Each fragment deeming itself a nation.



Khalil Jibran

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Dearest Saxena,

The article in question was about DST. The discussion was about DST. Now only an idiot would write the post that you did… or perhaps you thought Time Zones somehow determined the DST in which case you still qualify to be an idiot, since countries like UK are even thinner than Pakistan.

In any event, you should eat iodized salt.

Sincerely

Your friend and well wisher

-YLH

Dear Semipreciousme # 12 . . . what we do is we get more & more & more people to interact at chowk . . . that is one thing . . . regards/veeresh

Dost-Mittar, nasah, and a whole host of others bemoaning that India hasn`t reached the stage of US or Canada in terms of human rights.

After the Oklahoma City bombing, some of the radio broadcasts fingered Muslim terrorists as the cause. One Palestinian was actually pulled off a flight and detained for a couple of days while the FBI probed his background.

Ah yes, during the Atlanta Olympics, when somebody left a bomb in a trashcan and one newsreporter died of a heart attck rushing to cover the story, the FBI happily spread the lie that an unemployed security guard was the person responsible so that they didn`t have to admit that they didn`t have a clue who did it. The newspapers equally happily published that lie.

Yaaaawn!

THE CONSPIRACY OF COMMIES IN INDIA (A MUST READ)

Look how commie ba$tards are pursuing their anti national agenda through propaganda. I have not heard this kind of vicious propaganda even in Paki newspapers or PTV. Methinks Bengal govt should be dismissed using Article 356 and Communist party along with their propaganda brothers RSS should be BANNED UNDER POTA.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/archive/1020802/national.htm#head6

The Centre today took on the West Bengal government in the Supreme Court with an “anti-national” question paper set for the state’s inter-school higher secondary test.

Solicitor-general Harish Salve presented the entire set of question papers for the year 1992 before a three-judge bench presided over by Justice M.B. Shah, and pointed out its “anti-national” tone.

Students appearing for the Hindi (Group-A) second paper examination were asked to write an essay on any one of the following topics :

National unity and integrity are false political slogans

In Hindustan, there is no place for Hindu and Hindi

Five-year plans are a sham

Statistics on national development are a fraud

Democracy is a conspiracy

National revolution is the only way for progress

National means of broadcasting are useless

The students were also asked to write a précis of the following passage:

“The guardian of national politics… Delhi is a heartless administrative seat, on which sit not elected representatives of people, but anti-social poisonous snakes coming out of the caste jungle. Progress has been destroyed by tradition, education by the English medium, religion by political secularism, human beings by greed, idealism by dirty consumerism… Litterateurs have turned alcoholic, democratic representatives and administrators have become national villains, who only like secret accounts in foreign banks.”

A choice was given between writing the precis or expanding the following:

“Red Flag in Red Fort,

Is the demand of Hindustan.”

From the Hindi paper, Salve went to the mathematics paper set in the 1999-2000 annual examination for Class VI students in a Burdwan higher secondary school.

“How much money did Clinton give Atal and Pervez?” Salve started, when Justice Shah stopped the court room drama, telling him “not to read any more”.

The question that the solicitor-general was referring to, asked: “All right children, tell us how much money did Bill give Atal and Pervez?

“Three friends, Pervez, Atal and Bill went on a picnic. Pervez bought 750 grams of meat at Rs 120 a kg, Atal bought other food for Rs 75 and Bill gave some money to Atal and Pervez, so that their expenditure was equal. How much money did Atal and Pervez receive from Bill?”

Salve also attached BJP propaganda material against this question: “Marxists, who have reached ideological bankruptcy, are now targeting young students through education in West Bengal. They are making an attempt to sow poisonous seeds, reflective of their low thinking, into the consciousness of the children in Burdwan district of West Bengal…”

Salve will continue his arguments tomorrow before the three-judge bench, including Justice M.B. Shah, Justice D.M. Dharmadhikari and Justice H.K.Sema.

A very important observation was made here.
The media sometimes becomes a willing culprit
in such instances of mass murder.
India is at a turning point. If Gujrat-like situations continue, the future of that country is bleak no matter what IT companies it can presently attract.
Marjun_m may disagree but some Indians are beginning to accept this fact.

Ras

RE: Reply #: 18 Romair

``The coming elections in Gujrat could be a watershed point for the BJP.

....If the former happens, then I am afraid the worst days of communal violence in India are ahead, and not behind. If the later happens, then that could be the first step in the BJP losing its popularity``

In the first place, the BJP gained it`s current ``popularity`` not so much for it`s Hindutva agenda but because the Congress and National Front Govt proved to be inept entities. Even this popularity hasn`t translated to an absolute majority and has forced it to rule with a coalition Govt.. So if the Indian people have given it a mandate to govern, it is with one hand held to their nose.

Next, the BJP has already lost it`s popularity given that it`s rule is now reduced to just three states, if I`m not mistaken.

If Pakistanis really want to see the BJP out of power, then they should take steps which will lead to a leadership that doesn`t keep riling India`s goat, especially by projecting differences as a Muslim vs. non-Muslim one.

The latest example is Mushy`s grand tour with the obvious purpose of cornering India. Someone should kick the guy in the a * * to straighten his brains out.

re: ylh

..tsk tsk tsk...from revisionist BS to delusion to now lies...you really need to find some other ways to prop up your self-esteem...my specific post was on time zones and not DST...allow me to refresh your memory here...

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=bshah_apr1602&n=50#reply29

...so tell us...what is the latest GDP growth rate as predicted by your my-dad-offered-me-a-job-so-the-economy-must-be-strong barometer?...and which ivy league school is being kicked out to make room for rutgers?...ta ta

Re: Aakar

There is something fundamentally disgusting about your conclusion. I suspect you yourself are disgusted by your conclusion.

You are proposing to pull a Jack Nicholson on an entire country (You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!).

If publications or the authorities withhold the truth from the public it is with the assumption that the public cant be trusted with the truth. Well then how can the same public be trusted to know what is good for it?

You are challenging the very basis of democracy. Furthermore, this whole notion of ‘responsible’ editors withholding information from the flammable hordes reeks of elitism of the worst kind.

re: Romair

If the voters vindicate the BJP in Gujarat it does not logically follow that Indians are in favor of the RSS agenda.

At the worst it means that Gujaratis are.

Stop making authoritative comments about India while sitting in some stinking cube farm.

The coming elections in Gujrat could be a watershed point for the BJP.

The BJP has initiated, ``early`` elections, because it feels it can take advantage of the charged situation in Gujrat, i.e. it feels the killings will play to its advantage, and it will get even more votes than it would have gotten, had it waited for the normal elections.

If the BJP does end up getting more votes, it would probably indicate that pursuing the Hinduvta agenda, without worrying about moderate alliance parties, is actually a plus point for the BJP. This could encourage the BJP to drop its facade, and show its true RSS colors throughout India.

If it gets less votes, then it could indicate that Indians are fed up with Hinduvta, and may force the BJP to moderate its views.

If the former happens, then I am afraid the worst days of communal violence in India are ahead, and not behind. If the later happens, then that could be the first step in the BJP losing its popularity.

RE: Reply #: 11 arjun_m

``But the question is: Why would the US do that?``

Very simple, my man. Nations don`t have friends, they have interests. I think India has learned a hard lesson after doing a 180 degree turn in it`s friendship with the U.S.. She is now being lectured by Colin Powell about how to hold elections in Kashmir while he pats the master manipulator and democracy killer Mushy on the back for pimping his country to the U.S. yet again.

I think somebody has to tell the U.S. Emperor that he has no clothes. Osama bin Laden is a U.S. creation, Saddam Hussein is a U.S. creation and I don`t see why self-respecting people of the world who have no intention of even harming a hair on an American`s head should be held accountable in it`s war on terror, especially when the U.S. Govt. was responsible for creating these demons at the expense of the local populace in the first place.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Aakar,

A well written Article.

Welcomed respite after the iodine deficient ramblings of Sumit Ganguly (“I took the pin out of the grenade to make it safe”) , P-Mishra2 ( “so whats wrong with Ganguly’s claim”), Jay and Rsaxena (“Pakistan is geographically too thin a country to have DST”)…

Sincerely

YLH

jawahara:

``I am such an ardent supporter of freedom of expression. I believe in the adage, I don`t agree with what you say but I will defend, with my life, your right to say it. But then, nobody I have loved has died a horrendous, hate-propelled death.

And what is the cost of human lives? And shattered dreams? And this dark, vicious hatred that is churning our world? Are all these worth the freedom of expression?``

veeresh:

``So, at the end of the day, Aakar, if you print / publish what you think is correct, then that is about the best you can do people, freedom``

...both of you have said what i was thinking so well...so what do we do?...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Aakar, this article articulated the struggle going on inside of me since all this started.

I am such an ardent supporter of freedom of expression. I believe in the adage, I don`t agree with what you say but I will defend, with my life, your right to say it. But then, nobody I have loved has died a horrendous, hate-propelled death.

And what is the cost of human lives? And shattered dreams? And this dark, vicious hatred that is churning our world? Are all these worth the freedom of expression?

Well, part of me, says that principles are what keep us going, hoping for a brighter future, an idea, an ideal that will be triumphant in the end. Some day. One day.

And the other, more cynical (realistic?) part of me tells me I have really not seen much triumph of good and right lately, or ever. That these are all fairy tales invented to keep us complacent. That there is no right and wrong.

I think, in India, we need real dialogue. Examine the roots of this hatred that seems to grow stronger each day. Throw away those stupid national integration messages with hindus, muslims and sikhs dancing on Holi and Eid, or whatever. Why do we hate each other? Really? What can we do? It is rooted in our history, in everything that has happened till now. And it will get worse if we don`t acknowledge and truly deal with them in a healthy manner. Maybe we can`t get along but perhaps we don`t need to kill and rape each other to show our hatred. But I know this honest, painful dialogue is never going to happen. National dialogue and self-examination is not our way.

All sides have culpability in this climate of hatred. But when the government intercedes, it is something else altogether.

So, I have no dissenting views. Just a terrible darkness and a groping for answers. Wondering where we are headed. And it scares me.

I look forward to reading others` responses.

My memories of Sandesh mostly include furtive glances at the movies page in my 6ht and 7th standards.. Along with the usual suspect Hindi movies, there used to be titles like Frech Teacher, Bedroom Eyes, House of Love and The Last Seduction, all of which were screened in movie theatres I had never seen or knew where they were.

The fuzzy pics accompanying these movie ads, were enough titillation for a 12 year old boy in those days of DD and DD only. The descriptions were not bad either.. One translation from Gujarati to Hindi:

`` Jab kisi ke shayan kaksh mein teesra jhaankhta hai to kya hota hai? Pati ki jawani jab sexy patni ko dabati hai, to teesre jhaankhte hue aadmi se kaisa raha jayega? Garam Jawani aur Hasin Husna ka milan hua to kya hua?

Sheher ke yuvako mein HULLA !!(No Yuvatis, we are Indians :-))..

Kaam-vaasna ko nazro-nazar dekhne ki liye aaiye --Bedroom Eyes.

18 or upar. Sirf Vayasko ke Liye``

But the ads were there for all, even children to see.. Though making sure that Mom didnt see me reading that page was difficult at times..I suspect she knew..I must thank Sandesh for all the fun that we had then :-)

Other memories include ``reports`` about Martians landing in Russia and giving birth to a baby with blue skin and three eyes.. These ``reports`` were published in all seriousness, with photos and no denials ever.

Needless to say no one ever took Sandesh seriously.. Gujarat Samachar was always the classier one..

Anyways, later..

Satyavadi

``We are, simply put, unfit to have this freedom because we will misuse it. For murder.``

quiet right. being an indian myself, i do think that indians were not and are not reaedy for democracy and freedom. what india needed and still needs is a system where freedom is restricted. close example to that would be china.

50 years since freedom, half the population is living below poverty line, half the population is illiterate. what kind of leaders would such people choose.

I don`t have an opposing view. Indeed I feel that curtailing freedom of expression might be a good short term solution sometimes. My amazement however derives from the fact that the newspapers were obviously delivering something which their bloodthirsty audience wanted.

So what has introduced so much poison into Gujrati (maybe Indian?) society? And if it is not possible to fool all the people all the time, how come this poison has survived for so long? Does this mean that there are real issues involved which we dare not address?

And where do we go from here? If we are a democracy, should we let people really express thier views, knowing that these will destroy secular society as we know it? Or should we, like our freedom of expression, curtail democracy for a while?

-narain

``Anybody have an opposing view?``

No.

This is horrible. Forget about Hindu or Muslim, this is simply inhuman.

Thanks Aakar for letting us onto the truth. It`s a sad day for our great secular democracy when things like this happen but as long as we have a conscience, at least we can try and avoid it in future.

Any ideas on how the HELL Gujarat got this way?

I hate to say this, Aakar, but I think you need to read ``Manufacturing Consent`` once again.

When the real ``misuse of freedom`` in India is the growth of poverty and illiteracy, not to talk about bad health and absent governance, what difference, frankly, do a few thousand lives in the name of ``religion`` make?

I think media in India needs to go through a far more anarchic phase, where it reports blindly and blatantly everything and anything, before media gets worried about its own importance. Perceived, if I may say so, more by itself.

Editors meet collectors and senior police officers. Chief Ministers meet media owners.

People still do what they perceive as their truth in that moment. I don`t think media (or collectors, senior policemen, chief ministers etc etal) make any difference in what people will then do after that.

Freedom based on Anglo-Saxon mores would make a lot of sense if somebody from the Western media, say even The Economist, did a one-to-one comparision between Saudia and Afghanistan, for example. But hey, that would`nt be right either?

So, at the end of the day, Aakar, if you print / publish what you think is correct, then that is about the best you can do people, freedom . . .

cheers/veeresh

``Anybody have an opposing view?``

Nope. Lets go burn down Sandesh and Gujarat Samachar. Such a thing didnot already happen and the editor was able to make those statements only because there was a mismatch in numbers, so lets make up the numbers and use the same logic on him and his paper. What is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander.

http://www.pucl.org/reports/Topics/Religion-communalism/2002/gujarat-media.htm
THE ROLE OF NEWSPAPERS DURING THE GUJARAT CARNAGE:
a brief analysis for the period Feb 28 to March 24, 2002

By PUCL Vadodara and Shanti Abhiyan, Baroda
April 5, 2002
Draft to be revised
(Material submitted to the Editors’ Guild of India)

Aakar:

[…Anybody have an opposing view?…]

Well, how about just ‘views’?

You should thank your stars. Am exhausted. Just wasted a fine evening paying tributes to the editor/writer of the article below yours. Don’t feel like complimenting two editor/writers in a row! :)…

Seriously, for ‘another’ editor … yaar yeh tum log ‘presentation’…formatting waghera per dhiyaaN kyuN nahiN daitay ho?

And how are your Urdu classes coming along?

rgds,

t

Patel ji,

I`m not sure that `absolute` freedom of expression really exists..there are very few absolutes in this world we live in and `freedom` definitely is not one of them, as much as those of us would like to believe it is.

`the right to freedom...`--I always thought these were two separate things, Civics class lecture back in the old country (won`t specify which one)--rights to do blah blah, and freedoms of blah blah (forgive the profound blah blahs: it was many generations ago that I had to sit through a boring Civics class, made more boring by the fact that what we learned did not apply to the `real` world)--so to me, the right to freedom is a misnomer, an oxymoron, and just in my humble opinion a joke.