Umair Raja and Omer Rafique July 31, 2002
#24 Posted by Rafique on August 8, 2002 12:19:38 pm
------saminashah 21. I will try to look into Tim O`Brien at the local library or Chapters......Most of the startling sights pilots in Pakistan see consist of the beautiful geography of Pakistan..... Oasis in the deserts. K-2 on a clear day from a distance. Large mansions in the middle of nowhere villages. The uninhabited and untouched virgin beaches of Baluchistan. The shining lights of Karachi at night. Central Punjab covered with water one day after a massive flood.....A fighter pilot has the luxury of getting up close and face to face with these sights. That was the reference in this chapter to the main character`s bird`s eye views of Karachi being his greatest thrill. Even more thrilling than the combat flying he takes part in.
----Vereesh 22. I am trying to find Dragon Fire. I have found Dragon Strike by Hawksley and Dragon Fire by Paul Rielly. But I have not been able to find Dragon Fire by Hawksley......I just finished Line of Control by co-author and Clancy. You may want to read it. The overall scenario did end up occuring one year after the book was written. But it contains too many technical and social mistakes to have a person of Clancy`s caliber put his name on it.....I have added it to my list of thrillers on South Asia by authors who have very little understanding of the area.......Hopefully Dragon Fire is better.
----Vereesh 22. I am trying to find Dragon Fire. I have found Dragon Strike by Hawksley and Dragon Fire by Paul Rielly. But I have not been able to find Dragon Fire by Hawksley......I just finished Line of Control by co-author and Clancy. You may want to read it. The overall scenario did end up occuring one year after the book was written. But it contains too many technical and social mistakes to have a person of Clancy`s caliber put his name on it.....I have added it to my list of thrillers on South Asia by authors who have very little understanding of the area.......Hopefully Dragon Fire is better.
#23 Posted by anNy on August 8, 2002 12:19:38 pm
Samina
The things they carried is one of the most dimaag frying books I have red. Brien`s take on the vietnam experience was plain and simple incredible.
The things they carried is one of the most dimaag frying books I have red. Brien`s take on the vietnam experience was plain and simple incredible.
#22 Posted by veeresh on August 8, 2002 12:36:28 am
At the risk of repeating myself, please do try to read ``Dragon Fire`` . . .
#21 Posted by saminashah on August 7, 2002 6:00:24 pm
Rafique,
Simple metaphors work well; I wouldn`t worry too much about whether they are witty or intricate. Just try and start writing them at points you think are appropriate; I`m sure you`ve seen some really startling sights as a pilot. Try and recall them with plain language and images and see what happens. Something told simple and plain can be mor powerful than two handsful of 90 cent vocab! :)
Tim O`Brien fought in the Vietnam War. His father served at Iwo Jima. His famous book is ``The Things They Carried``; a collection of short stories about his troop. The reason I suggest that you check him (as well as other writers who focus on military operational/espionage themes) out is to give yourself a look to see whats out there. I appreciate the narratives you`ve got going already, and for the vision of this series, your and your co-writer are coming up with interesting, ambitious work. And you both seem to be pulling it off quite nicely. I guess, maybe other themes could be explored in other essays, stories, etc. I`d be really interesting in reading the narratives of soldiers in India and Pakistan.
cheers!
Simple metaphors work well; I wouldn`t worry too much about whether they are witty or intricate. Just try and start writing them at points you think are appropriate; I`m sure you`ve seen some really startling sights as a pilot. Try and recall them with plain language and images and see what happens. Something told simple and plain can be mor powerful than two handsful of 90 cent vocab! :)
Tim O`Brien fought in the Vietnam War. His father served at Iwo Jima. His famous book is ``The Things They Carried``; a collection of short stories about his troop. The reason I suggest that you check him (as well as other writers who focus on military operational/espionage themes) out is to give yourself a look to see whats out there. I appreciate the narratives you`ve got going already, and for the vision of this series, your and your co-writer are coming up with interesting, ambitious work. And you both seem to be pulling it off quite nicely. I guess, maybe other themes could be explored in other essays, stories, etc. I`d be really interesting in reading the narratives of soldiers in India and Pakistan.
cheers!
#20 Posted by Rafique on August 7, 2002 12:52:57 pm
saminashah 18. I am glad someone liked the details ;). Similies and metaphors are the best way to explain situations. But it is very difficult to come up with good and witty ones. I will try......I am not familiar with O`Brien. What is his claim to fame?......Each of the three parts is supposed to be occuring simultaneously, or at least on the same day.
glib 19. Thanks for the link.....I actually mention LCA in the next chapter....Test piloting is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Quite a few of these pilots die, even in countries like the USA with its high quality control....From what I have read the LCA was an engineering nightmare. This would make the job of the Indian Wg. Cdr. even more dangerous. I was unaware that IAF sent someone to the USAF Test Pilot School. One of my American friends is a graduate of TPS at Edwards Air Force Base. It is an extremely demanding course for pilots and engineers. Only the best in the world are able to complete it successfully.
glib 19. Thanks for the link.....I actually mention LCA in the next chapter....Test piloting is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Quite a few of these pilots die, even in countries like the USA with its high quality control....From what I have read the LCA was an engineering nightmare. This would make the job of the Indian Wg. Cdr. even more dangerous. I was unaware that IAF sent someone to the USAF Test Pilot School. One of my American friends is a graduate of TPS at Edwards Air Force Base. It is an extremely demanding course for pilots and engineers. Only the best in the world are able to complete it successfully.
#19 Posted by glib on August 6, 2002 12:32:53 pm
[Quote]
Mohsin often concluded that he would have made more
money than his military salary, had he just continued
with his small family business. But the Air Force had
trained him well. His military flying career had been
short, but distinguished and extremely satisfying. He
had been a chief test pilot of the new Super-7 aircraft in
China, a senior pilot in an F-16 squadron, and was now
an [sic] flight commander and instructor in Pakistan’s
world famous Combat Commanders School. He was
arguably the best pilot, in one of the best Air Forces in the world, flying its best airplane.
[Endquote]
Check out this link:
http://www.setp.org/2001Kinchaward.html
Mohsin often concluded that he would have made more
money than his military salary, had he just continued
with his small family business. But the Air Force had
trained him well. His military flying career had been
short, but distinguished and extremely satisfying. He
had been a chief test pilot of the new Super-7 aircraft in
China, a senior pilot in an F-16 squadron, and was now
an [sic] flight commander and instructor in Pakistan’s
world famous Combat Commanders School. He was
arguably the best pilot, in one of the best Air Forces in the world, flying its best airplane.
[Endquote]
Check out this link:
http://www.setp.org/2001Kinchaward.html
#18 Posted by saminashah on August 6, 2002 12:32:53 pm
This was absorbing work! Part One was fascinating esp. for civillians like me; but, small details kept me reading. If the authors are inclined, perhaps they can develop other writing strategies like similies, metaphors, etc, to communicate to readers like me, what it must be like to pilot a plane in a military exercise/flight canvas...I think that flying might lend itself well to such leaps...my advice is be more Tim O`Brien than Tom Clancy...its def. worth it ....Part Two and Three are different enough to keep our attention-i.e., how do these narratives relate or intertwine? We as readers know that placing these particular narratives together engenders the same time frame for us. So on another level, we as readers are curious about the machinations behind the red curtain!
#17 Posted by nik2002 on August 5, 2002 2:32:34 pm
Aaaaakash,
How many times do we have to remind you how to pronounce blood (its khoon khun) and by the way language you speak is urdu not hindi.
How many times do we have to remind you how to pronounce blood (its khoon khun) and by the way language you speak is urdu not hindi.
#16 Posted by Akash on August 3, 2002 9:19:41 pm
Temporal#13
``aishwariya if not mauriya or ashoka?:)``
How many times Pakistanis on Chowk need to be told that it is ``Aishwarya`` and NOT ``Aishwariya``. And it is ``Maurya`` and NOT ``Mauriya``.
``aishwariya if not mauriya or ashoka?:)``
How many times Pakistanis on Chowk need to be told that it is ``Aishwarya`` and NOT ``Aishwariya``. And it is ``Maurya`` and NOT ``Mauriya``.
#15 Posted by Rafique on August 3, 2002 9:19:41 pm
---MastRam 11. Thanks for the link.....I was amazed by the number of books Clancy has been turning out lately. Now I know how he does it. This is also why the standard of these books is not upto par. I guess authoring is big business now.... There is an Op Center book called, ``Line of Control`` on India-Pak issues that I am currently reading.
---Raw_Dust 12. I can see how this could be confusing since fiction and reality are almost antonyms..... What I mean is that I do not like fiction that is completely based on imagination, like science fiction or books that base everything on major events that have yet to occur and have little chance of occuring.
---temporal 13. Thanks for the suggestions.....Following are my reasons for the wordings:....Squadron insgnias are considered unofficial parts of the cover all flying suits. Hence they are normally stitched. Apart from the insignias pilots usually place different optional patches on their cover-alls. These include items like the Pakistani flag or insignia of the aircraft they are flying. Since these change depending on the mood of the pilot they are usually velcroed so one can be replaced by the other....All squadron names in the PAF are read and written in this specific order, i.e. no. such and such squadron. The correct designation should actually be no. 32 Squadron, The Fighting Eagles....INS Gorshkov is the actual name of a Russian aircraft carrier that India has been evaluating. As far as I know India has not inducted it into its naval fleet yet so it has not received an Indian name yet. Perhaps I could replace it with INS Vikrant (originally HMS Hercules), which is an aircraft carrier currently in the Indian fleet.....Detailed descriptions are a matter of preference. I think it is important in the begining to give them since it establishes the author`s knowledge of the subject (assuming the descriptions are correct). As the book progresses they can be reduced.
---Raw_Dust 12. I can see how this could be confusing since fiction and reality are almost antonyms..... What I mean is that I do not like fiction that is completely based on imagination, like science fiction or books that base everything on major events that have yet to occur and have little chance of occuring.
---temporal 13. Thanks for the suggestions.....Following are my reasons for the wordings:....Squadron insgnias are considered unofficial parts of the cover all flying suits. Hence they are normally stitched. Apart from the insignias pilots usually place different optional patches on their cover-alls. These include items like the Pakistani flag or insignia of the aircraft they are flying. Since these change depending on the mood of the pilot they are usually velcroed so one can be replaced by the other....All squadron names in the PAF are read and written in this specific order, i.e. no. such and such squadron. The correct designation should actually be no. 32 Squadron, The Fighting Eagles....INS Gorshkov is the actual name of a Russian aircraft carrier that India has been evaluating. As far as I know India has not inducted it into its naval fleet yet so it has not received an Indian name yet. Perhaps I could replace it with INS Vikrant (originally HMS Hercules), which is an aircraft carrier currently in the Indian fleet.....Detailed descriptions are a matter of preference. I think it is important in the begining to give them since it establishes the author`s knowledge of the subject (assuming the descriptions are correct). As the book progresses they can be reduced.
#14 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on August 3, 2002 1:19:21 pm
A good read.
Keep up the tempo CHOWK Editors!
Ras
#13 Posted by temporal on August 2, 2002 10:42:28 pm
Umair & Omer:
[...with the squadron insignia sewn onto its right sleeve and a small Pakistani flag velcroed onto the left sleeve...]
insginia is sticthed...and the flag is velcroed? velcro is something that can be fixed or positioned and locked and removed...i chuckled when i read this...so the pilot can remove the green star and crescent and fix stars and stripes or any other flag before the next sortie?:)
[...belonging to the no. 32 Fighting Eagles squadron...]
drop `no.`...it read well without...
[...The PNS Multan had been posing as the Indian aircraft carrier INS Gorshkov...]
...why a russian name?...pick some indian version of `Ghori` :)...and if you cannot imagine why surely you are familiar with madhuri, aishwariya if not mauriya or ashoka?:)
...the detailed descriptions look bad in this chapter but would be ok if not over done in the novel...
rgds,
t
[...with the squadron insignia sewn onto its right sleeve and a small Pakistani flag velcroed onto the left sleeve...]
insginia is sticthed...and the flag is velcroed? velcro is something that can be fixed or positioned and locked and removed...i chuckled when i read this...so the pilot can remove the green star and crescent and fix stars and stripes or any other flag before the next sortie?:)
[...belonging to the no. 32 Fighting Eagles squadron...]
drop `no.`...it read well without...
[...The PNS Multan had been posing as the Indian aircraft carrier INS Gorshkov...]
...why a russian name?...pick some indian version of `Ghori` :)...and if you cannot imagine why surely you are familiar with madhuri, aishwariya if not mauriya or ashoka?:)
...the detailed descriptions look bad in this chapter but would be ok if not over done in the novel...
rgds,
t
#12 Posted by Raw_Dust on August 2, 2002 3:17:02 pm
`` I like fiction that is tightly bound to reality.
Something that hasn`t happened, but could easily happen. ``
What?
Something that hasn`t happened, but could easily happen. ``
What?
#11 Posted by mastram on August 2, 2002 3:17:02 pm
re Rafique #10
Clancy apparently doesn`t write all the details himself.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53078-2002Jul23.html
Clancy apparently doesn`t write all the details himself.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53078-2002Jul23.html
#10 Posted by Rafique on August 2, 2002 2:00:57 pm
Banjaara 6.... I will take your remark as a compliment, since I am neither a novelist nor a fiction writer, by profession nor by education......
Thanks for pointing out the Persian phrase. Now you know why I do not write in Urdu or Persian.....
Raw_Dust 7.... I like fiction that is tightly bound to reality. Something that hasn`t happened, but could easily happen. The kind of fiction that Larry Collins and Dominique Lapiere write. Their fiction is based more on tying fictional historical stories within factual circumstances. Mine is more of a current day attempt......
Pankaj 8..... I will submit Chapter 5, in a week or two. Let`s see if it makes it.......
semipreciousme 9. I agree it is too detailed. I, myself, prefer thrillers that concentrate on the abstract plot, and leave the details to the imagination of the reader, as sac has mentioned.
But, Clancy seems to have turned this concept on its head. He has simple plots, and spends all his time on details, down to the size of the bullets. One feels he could write his books with half the pages, if he skipped the details. But they outsell everyone, including writers like Ludlum, who concentrate more on the plot and characters.
I have discovered it is much easier to write chapters, if one describes the details. It is much more difficult to fill the pages if one just concentrates on the abstractions of the plot. I will attempt to describe the details when it comes to characters and armament, and concentrate on the plot, in all other situations.....
How does that sound?....
I have never been to Delhi, Riyadh or Israel, so I would welcome the highlighting of any errors in relation to these three areas (or any other areas, for that matter), like replacing cashews with pistachios, and Rajputana Rifles with the Rajput Regiment. So far we have had a lot of input from the Delhiwallas, but none from the Riyadhwallas and Israelwallas.....
Thanks for pointing out the Persian phrase. Now you know why I do not write in Urdu or Persian.....
Raw_Dust 7.... I like fiction that is tightly bound to reality. Something that hasn`t happened, but could easily happen. The kind of fiction that Larry Collins and Dominique Lapiere write. Their fiction is based more on tying fictional historical stories within factual circumstances. Mine is more of a current day attempt......
Pankaj 8..... I will submit Chapter 5, in a week or two. Let`s see if it makes it.......
semipreciousme 9. I agree it is too detailed. I, myself, prefer thrillers that concentrate on the abstract plot, and leave the details to the imagination of the reader, as sac has mentioned.
But, Clancy seems to have turned this concept on its head. He has simple plots, and spends all his time on details, down to the size of the bullets. One feels he could write his books with half the pages, if he skipped the details. But they outsell everyone, including writers like Ludlum, who concentrate more on the plot and characters.
I have discovered it is much easier to write chapters, if one describes the details. It is much more difficult to fill the pages if one just concentrates on the abstractions of the plot. I will attempt to describe the details when it comes to characters and armament, and concentrate on the plot, in all other situations.....
How does that sound?....
I have never been to Delhi, Riyadh or Israel, so I would welcome the highlighting of any errors in relation to these three areas (or any other areas, for that matter), like replacing cashews with pistachios, and Rajputana Rifles with the Rajput Regiment. So far we have had a lot of input from the Delhiwallas, but none from the Riyadhwallas and Israelwallas.....
#9 Posted by semipreciousme on August 2, 2002 12:23:47 am
...a little heavy on the technical details, but a pretty interesting read nonetheless...
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