The Hindu Right

fawad79
On judging whether Kalam is a `self-respecting Muslim` for accepting the post of President offered by the BJP government.

AlephNull has made excellent points to which I will add that Kalam was a professional for at least 30-35 years in a technical field, and as a government servant, not a politician or social activist. As a government servant, it would have been highly inappropriate for him to associate himself in his official/professional capacity with `Muslim` or any religion-specific organisations exactly like it would have been inappropriate for a Hindu government servant in his position to associate with `Hindu` organisations whether controversial ones like the RSS or innocuous ones like the Ramakrishna Mission. His critics who say Kalam didnot associate himself with the Muslim cause have clear double standards because they would call any Hindu in a similar position a fascist if he similarly chose to associate with `Hindu` causes.

As for whether post-Gujarat he should have taken a stand by refusing the post, thats a valid question, IMO. A person in his position with the right intentions(which are yet unclear) has to make a choice, can he make more of a difference by being reactive and refusing the post or by being proactive and becoming President? Its a tough call and I am happy he chose the latter course. He will be judged by what he chooses to use his influence for in future. btw, Kalam will be in office for five years, longer than the current government which will be facing general elections in approx. two years.
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The joke is if Kalam had been Pakistani he would be perhaps been either exiled or killed and sent to Islamic hell by state blasphemy law, for quoting the Gita while in a official position or still thinking of himself as Muslim(and what to say if he was a Ahmedi as well).

If Kalam had been East Pakistani, he might have been killed by Pakistanis along with tens of thousands of others for being a `Kali-worshipping` Mohammadi or being a lesser Muslim for having the wrong mothertongue or complexion.

If he had been Afghan, he might have been among the tens of thousands killed by heaven-seeking Pakistanis. Or he might be striving to bring normalcy back among the rubble of Kabul thoughtfully sponsored by Pakistani ideology, strategic depth and artillery.

And this is just part of it. As a Muslim, Kalam could insist that India break off ALL contact with Pakistan for a long time to come.

Fawad #78

{aka self-hating if there was a racial riot in LA and blacks were slaughtered and colin powell didnt speak how many black people do you think will accept that the man is ``black`` .....lets be real and not hide behind politcally correct screens like aleph nulls}

Colin Powell? An intriguing choice indeed. More than 60 people were killed in the LA riots following the Rodney King trial ... admittedly many of them were non-black. Small numbers of black people have been killed in disturbances in places like Cincinnati. The cases of Amadou Diallo and Abner Louima received wide publicity. I may have missed it, but I don`t recall Colin Powell going public in a single one of those instances. Are we to infer that Secretary Powell is a `self-hating black man` - a `good black` - a `token black` - an `Uncle Tom` - an `Oreo` - a `house n * * * * *`` - etc. etc. ad nauseam? Is it possible to be less compulsively outspoken than Al Sharpton or Louis Farrakhan or the Rev. Jesse Jackson, and yet be a self-respecting black man? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Fawad #78

Let us examine more of Fawad`s `facts`.

{kalam was appointed by the BJP and is part of a BJP govt ............whether or not he belongs to the party is irrelevant he has accepted the job.......}

WRONG. India`s President is *elected * (by an electoral college made up of national and state legislators). He is not *appointed *; in India it actually makes a difference. Nor is he self-appointed, unlike in some neighbouring countries. And while some past Presidential elections have actually been fiercely contested (most famously that of V.V.Giri in the late 60s), there is a tradition of seeking a Presidential candidate acceptable to as wide a part of the political spectrum as possible. The point is that the post of President is above and independent of any particular party or government, and therefore he should preferably be seen as above divisive partisanship

In Kalam`s case, his name appears to have been first proposed by Mulayam Singh Yadav of the Samajwadi Party - hardly a Sangh Parivari. And if he was nominated by the NDA, he was supported by the Congress and every major party except the Communists. Kalam has such wide public acceptability that no mainstream party could be seen to oppose him outright.

{kalam didnt speak out about gujrat ..........again aleph null pointed out that did i consider that he didnt speak out against kashmir terrorism by pakistan........or that kalam should speak out against violence against all indians........this is a cheap cop out}

Well, let`s see:

Datelined June 19th 2002 (i.e., shortly after Kalam`s nomination for President, but prior to his election):

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jun/19prez1.htm

``Gujarat violence painful: Abdul Kalam``

and breaking news:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/09prez.htm

``Kalam picks Gujarat for his first official visit``

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/10prez.htm

``Kalam`s plan to visit Gujarat rattles Sangh Parivar``

Events have a way of making monkeys out of all of us. Narendra Modi and company ought to be having kittens. Some people may of course now sneer that Kalam`s visit is just part of a devious Hindutvavadi plan to whitewash anti-Muslim violence in Gujarat.



{wonderful noncommunal BJP ever thinkof giving this guy a portfolio with powe and please dont tell me his was minister of science that position has little if no power}

That is a remarkably ignorant and short-sighted remark. Don`t extrapolate from Pakistan, where Begum Abida Hussain - who AFAIK has no scientific or technical background - was previously Minister for Science and Tech. Even Air Chief Marshal Romair has shown more sense than you - he has been seen pinning his long-shot hopes for Pakistan`s IT development on the current Science and Technology Minister Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman, who actually has a scientific background.

``That position has little if no power`` ONLY if the incumbent fails to have an impact. It`s like saying R&D is of no importance to a firm`s bottom-line. Technology or manufacturing companies that take that point-of-view (like many old-school desi companies did) may survive for a while but are destined to long-term extinction. Similarly, developed nations see scientific and technological advances as the crucial engine of future economic well-being. From the US to Japan to Finland to Israel, they all take their technology policies extremely seriously. Independent Indian has always placed great importance on scientific and technological development, even if her citizens have not achieved a fraction of what they could have.

Science and technology would have been the ideal portfolio for Kalam, because it dovetailed so perfectly with his interests. He is a technological utopian - he believes in the power of technology to radically change the quality of a nation`s life. He has actually thought a great deal about the subject. Try to look at his book ``India 2020: A Vision for the New Millenium``, if you can. It is a roadmap for India`s development. The chapters include - `Food, Agriculture and Processing`, `Materials and the Future`, `Chemical Industries and our Biological Wealth`, `Manufacturing for the Future`[, `Strategic Industries`, `Health Care for all`, `The Enabling Infrastructure`. To give you an idea, he spends a page each discussing the prospects for increased production of titanium and of rare earths, in each of which India has among the largest reserves in the world; 2 pages each on aluminium, composites, ceramics, superconducting materials, 3 pages on advanced sensors, etc. etc. You can disagree with his vision, but you cannot fault his interest or in-depth involvement.

Incidentally Kalam reviews the technology visions of several other countries - the USA and Europe, Malaysia, China, Japan, Korea and Israel. Pakistan finds no mention. You can decide whether this is an intentional slight or something else.

So if power means the ability to make underlings jump and cringe and cower - to break peoples` heads - to order the police to fire on rioting mobs, or NOT fire on rioting mobs - to make 111 Brigade move on the Prime Minister`s residence - I agree that Kalam was offered a post with little or no power. But if it means the ability to make the biggest positive difference to peoples` futures, Kalam was offered a post with the most power he could possibly have hoped to exercise.

fawad #61, #78

I was inclined to honour - or humour - your plaintive request in #61 to be left alone. But then I saw you go at my points again in #78. Have the integrity to stick rigorously to what you say you are going to do. Further, as a grown man, it does not behoove you to whine or cry uncle or adopt an injured air whenever you encounter determined opposition or stub your toe on facts that challenge your preconceptions. Your high dudgeon would be more understandable if, rather than surmise occasional errors of logic or reading comprehension on your part, I had accused you of flagrant disingenuousness or mendacity. For my own part, I reserve the right - subject to the indulgence of the Chowk.staff - to comment or not comment on other peoples` posts, to cast bouquets or brickbats, as I see fit.

#61

{i know one thing ....you didnt call me an islamist you certainly implied it}

In the sense of *logical implication *, I most certainly didn`t.

Sedentary middle-aged men, *particularly those of Indian-subcontinental heritage *, are prone to develop heart disease. This statement (which is true) does not imply that a sedentary middle-aged man who develops heart disease is necessarily of subcontinental heritage. [I would guess that, in absolute numbers worldwide, most sedentary middle-aged men who develop heart disease are not subcontinentals.]

By the same token, the statement that ``Pakistanis, *especially of the Islamist persuasion *, find the phenomenon of Abdul Kalam difficult to digest`` does not logically imply that every Pakistani who has difficulty coming to terms with the Kalam phenomenon is an Islamist.

I trust that I do not need to explain the above in even more excruciating detail. If by `implied` you meant not ``logical implication`` but sly insinuation, innuendo, etc. you are wrong. There - in the absence of non-verbal cues - you`ll simply have to take my word for it.

#78

{also disregard the above cuz i have lack of reading comp and english grammar amazing for a guy with 750 on verbal no?}

That doesn`t impress me one bit. I did significantly better, half a lifetime ago; I haven`t kept track of subsequent changes in the norming. `Occasional problems with logic` was the first of my surmised explanations for your stumble. I very much doubt that you scored 800 on the analytical section :-)

re: zafar

...you found italian cafes in australia?...whoa...in any case, i went to this one cafe in palermo, sicily, and i must tell you, the coffee was the last thing i noticed...if you know what i mean....

Citizen Cane Lyngdoh hits Baroda; BJP livid

Vinay Menon

Vadodara, August 11

A day after he knocked politicians in Ahmedabad, Chief Election Commissioner (CEC) J.M. Lyngdoh tore into the bureaucrats of Gujarat - this time in Vadodara, and in far stronger language.

In New Delhi, the BJP high command was believed to have received a strong complaint from a peeved Narendra Modi administration in Gandhinagar, criticising Lyngdoh`s ``rude behaviour`` with senior state officials in Ahmedabad on Friday.

On Saturday in the course of a closed-door briefing, Vadodara Collector Bhagyesh Jha apparently told Lyngdoh and his two top colleagues that the city had seen only a ``couple of sporadic events`` during the March-April communal violence, and that the situation had now returned to normal.

Soon afterward, the CEC went out to the site of the infamous Best Bakery carnage in which at least 14 people were murdered on March 1, and spoke with the victims. What they told him caused Lyngdoh to lose his temper completely.

___________________________________________

``What kind of stories were you telling us,`` he shouted at Jha. ``You said only sporadic incidents. Sporadic incidents? You are jokers. All of you. Aren`t you ashamed of yourselves?`` The red-faced collector listened in silence.

_________________________________________

Lyngdoh next asked to meet with Zaira, a teenaged survivor of the massacre who saw her uncle, sister and relatives being set on fire and chopped up with knives. A meeting was arranged between the girl and the Election Commission team at the state guesthouse, where she recounted her horror to the CEC and election commissioners.

In its complaint to the BJP leadership, the Modi government is believed to have said the CEC refused to even shake hands with the chief secretary and other top officials. The information from Gandhinagar suggested the EC had pre-conceived ideas about the Modi government, BJP sources in Delhi said.

_____________________________________________

A truly INDEPENDENT EC and a truly INDEPENDENT Supreme Court are the two unflinching stalwart guards of Indian democracy and secularism.

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re: asif naqshabandi #80

...if nasah, as an indian, is telling you he doesn`t want your crocodile tears, why must you insist otherwise?...what part don`t you understand?...india is HIS country, not yours...instead, how about a tear for your buddies in guantanmo bay?...

Shammi miaN -- welcome back -- you are right it was the abundance of semi autonomous rich princely states -- that discouraged Nehru to accept the federation plan -- he called it the Balkanization of India

otherwise loose federation was a great idea also supported by Azad (who considered it Nehru`s prime folly), Jai Prakash, and others including Jinnah

it could have saved Punjab and Bengal from being artificially truncated -- and may have saved the regions from those horrible holocausts as well -- who knows.

but the princely states were so powerful and so many like small pox on the face of a progressive anti-feudal India -- that the task of assimilating them seemed insurmountable in those days

They were like a heavy albatross left by retreating Raj in the neck of a heterogeneous independent India in its infancy -- a mess that Nehru and Patel did clean up with civility and gentle pressure.

very kind of you -- tahmed -- you`re the conscience of a progressive democratic, gentler, kinder Pakistan.

Good article overall. No mention of Meenakshipuram tho?

Reply faward79 # 78



“…i dont care if this guy wears a dot on his head…”

Vaisai mera sir dot ke liye zara chhota hi hai.

“and changes his name to arjun”

Move OVER Arjun M

++

Fawad Mian, I’m enjoying your posts – just a friendly word: we all learn most from people with whom we disagree. (eg Aleph) Often because we find that while there’s no difference on the fundamentals, the value we’ve assigned to some occurances is radically different…so who’s viewpoint is right? Or can everybody’s be refined? Peace.

Reply Dost-Mittar # 77



”I have a somewhat different pov re. the post-partition history. I think that this rise is, PARTLY, due to the Hindu (mainly Congress) politicians` `guth-bandhan` with the most regressive elements among Muslims to get their votes without doing anything concrete to bring them into the mainstream and improve their lot. Take the example of the Haj subsidy - how many Muslim lives does it improve? But it does provide an opportunity to the Hindu Right to build an anti-Muslim sentiments among the Hindus.”

Well said.

Reply pmishra2 # 74

”My suggestion is that the constitution, ideals and symbols of the indian state have a similar inclusive character. And that smart people should use it against fanatics --- and at the same time communicate to the broader indian public their participation in indian national life.”

I think it’s a good idea – and the use of these symbols by Muslims marginalises Bukhari et al as well, which can only be good.

Reply Hobbes # 70



”Quite right Zafar! - The problem of India are Muslims. It Is Muslims who are the ``Driver`` - It`s all a conspiracy, the Mahabasa has no problem but this.”

Oh dear, did I make a statement about the Hindu Right’s beliefs without the required condemnatory statement? (eg “of course I AND ALL RIGHT MINDED PEOPLE know that this is false, I spit on them, thooo, thooo!”)

Please accept my apologies for upsetting you like this. Consider the ritual denunciation done.

”How do you think this might be resolved, what are, to your thinking, workable solutions? What ought Muslims do to not be victimized but still maintain their rights as equal citizens?”

It all flows from a perception among some of Indian Muslims being somehow fundamentally different (other) from Indian Hindus. THAT is what we have to get over – any action which assumes that this difference is fundamental work against resolving the problem in the long run, no matter how many short term goodies for the few it generates.

Regards