The Hindu Right

re:#172 by harimau
I read your post with interest. I agree to what you say in principle about brahmins. This brahmin Vs rest debate always amazes me. I always find it difficult to believe that brahmins, being such an insignificant minority from aeons of time, could have had the means to sudue a majority, unwilling populace. Unlike the aristocracies of Europe, brahmins in India did not have any army to suppress the rest of population. How could brahmins so completely dominate every aspect of life then?
The answer lies in the fact their power flowed out of their knowledge base. In the remote past, such a knowledge included vedas, astrology and the like. All these were much in demand. Even a king would like to know what was the best time to wage a war against his enemy and (in the absence of other scientific data at the time) often turned to a brahmin priest for counsel. Brahmins became indispensable as they interpreted the scriptures. Did they prevent the non-brahmins from learning scriptures? No. I know that, barring the shudras of the time (who were often prisoners of war), the rest could always get an education in Gurukula (the school system of that time).
However, few would have the discipline to go thr` the studies. Mastering one Veda took an average of 7 years! Some mastered 2, or 3 and few mastered all 4 vedas (in the north, we still find the surnames dwivedi, trivedi,chaturvedi for this very reason). This was not everybody`s cup of tea and required discipline and a kind of commitment that few possessed. Brahmins were expected to do this and they did it and were respected for their scholarship.
The society of the time gave the brahmins their exalted place and the same society now bemoans the brahmin dominance!
The british did nothing to change the equation. They were here to rule and not for social work. They found brahmin class ready to fit the slot and took them.
To this day, what distinguishes a brahmin from others (at least true in the south indian context) is their discipline and obsessive desire for learning.
sridhar

HaramiU

What`s wrong with being code ``coolies``? Aren`t they making an honest living? Is it the brahmin in you that has to sneer at other people?

HaramiU

What`s wrong with being code ``coolies``? Aren`t they making an honest living? Is it the brahmin in you that has to sneer at other people?

HaramiU

Arguments, what arguments? Remember the dictum never to argue with a fool, I`m a strict adherent to it. But I`m cool enuff to let U know what`s wrong with U so U don`t continue to make a fool of Urself. See Ur so stoopid U didn`t even figure out the thing about the diaper. What U bin doing with all that overworked headcheese leaking out Ur ears, lickin it, mofo?

HaramiU

Arguments, what arguments? Remember the dictum never to argue with a fool, I`m a strict adherent to it. But I`m cool enuff to let U know what`s wrong with U so U don`t continue to make a fool of Urself. See Ur so stoopid U didn`t even figure out the thing about the diaper. What U bin doing with all that overworked headcheese leaking out Ur ears, lickin it, mofo?

#170 unkalji

``[One is the misdeeds of past rulers which may or may not be correctible depending on how much a corrective action would affect the present-day ordinary citizens.]

``In that case, if Brahmins were the recipients of unjustified largesses from various Hindu kings, they should not be penalized just as you all claim that ordinary Muslims should not be penalized for the misdeeds of their sultans. It is not as if the Muslims refused to accept highly paid positions or went on some non-violent civil disobedience action against the jizya. So if the brahmins were complicit by their silence, then so were the ordinary Muslims.``

Brahmins and other FCs directly benefited during the british raj and it is the perpetuation of that privilege the quota system is supposed to attack. The privileged, mughal wannabe muslims saw what was coming & got their own country. The erstwhile warlords who owned large swathes of land saw their landholdings diminish in independent india. All of this is corrective action.

What you are advocating tho is that ordinary muslims (most of whom are poor) be punished for whatever the muslim sultans did. A very different animal.

``[The second is the societal discrimination and backwardness of a people which can be corrected now. If a section of a society enjoys a privileged position to the detriment of others then, in a democratic society, the morally correct thing to do would be to deny continuation of that privilege. Given that there are a limited number of govt-funded college seats and government jobs, and that a section of society has had no history of education for it to qualify on merit alone for college seats, it makes sense to have positive discrimination.]

``YOU are now confusing two issues. One is getting an education and jobs based on merit and skills. The other is societal discrimination. The fact that a brahmin wouldn`t give you water doesn`t mean that he got his education in the absence of merit. And exactly what was the education that the brahmins had till the British started schools in India? ``

Again you`re obfuscating. There indeed are segments that hate brahmins for historical reasons just as you hate ordinary muslims. While their interests may coincide with the policy behind quota system, the two are not the same. The quota system had the support of policy makers such as Rajaji, who was hardly a self-hating brahmin. The FCs formed bulk of the administrative and other services during and immediately following the end of the raj. The quota system is designed to even the playing field so that it`s not just the IAS officer`s son who enters the service. Or only a doctor`s son who becomes a doctor and so on. It`s nice to talk about competing purely on the basis of merit but a peasant`s son coming from a rural government school has to be a genius to be able to enter a professional college compared to a student coming from an urban school who can benefit from coaching classes in the evening. Most of the time the peasant is a BC and the urbanite, an FC. This certainly would have been the situation in the absence of the quota system.

``There was a picture of the three service chiefs in the newspaper the other day. Two, by their names, seemingly are South Indian brahmins ``

You have just made my point for me. The brits recruited exclusively among the so-called ``martial races``. It`s only in independent india that a brahmin could become a chief warrior because recruitment is now down regionwise and the hold of certain sections on military recruitment has been broken.

Ref FakemHakim #: 173

[You need to wear a diaper on your head to stop all the excretions.]

I finally understand why I see all the mullahs wearing a large piece of cloth wrapped around their heads.

Ref FakemHakim #: 173

[Sure your headcheese works, Mr. Homer Simpson. The evidence is all over the place. You need to wear a diaper on your head to stop all the excretions.]

How about answering my questions or rebutting my arguments with logic? Hasn`t been done in a year by the collective might of Pakistanis or affirmative-action Indians.

It is actually easy for me to argue on Chowk when you display all the intelligence of a sea slug.

HaramiU

Sure your headcheese works, Mr. Homer Simpson. The evidence is all over the place. You need to wear a diaper on your head to stop all the excretions.

HaramiU

Sure your headcheese works, Mr. Homer Simpson. The evidence is all over the place. You need to wear a diaper on your head to stop all the excretions.

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...On the other hand, I hope that the Election Commission will deliver a well-deserved slap to Modi and the BJP by declaring that Gujrarat is not ready for a free and fair elections at this time...``

I think that your prayers (and mine) have been answered.

Ref FakemHakim #: 168

[HaramiU

Are you one of those unemployed brahmins with too much free time on their hands that they sit around ans spin their webs all day? You`re one screwed up M *F *!]

Whether employed or unemployed, my brain works all the time unlike yours which seems to be on Prozac.

Ref Maasanamuthu aka Pearl of the Cemetery #: 169

[I realize i`m quite likely wasting my time since the only way you can argue seems to be to cuss& swear.]

The cusswords are more properly reserved for those like Doctor Artist Leader and The Great Intellectual who put funny ideas into your head such as it is better to have entitlements based on birth rather than on merit.

[Will give it a shot anyway.]

I am waiting breathlessly.

[There are 2 separate issues here which you are mixing up for obvious reasons:]

Let us see who is the mixed-up one.

[One is the misdeeds of past rulers which may or may not be correctible depending on how much a corrective action would affect the present-day ordinary citizens.]

In that case, if Brahmins were the recipients of unjustified largesses from various Hindu kings, they should not be penalized just as you all claim that ordinary Muslims should not be penalized for the misdeeds of their sultans. It is not as if the Muslims refused to accept highly paid positions or went on some non-violent civil disobedience action against the jizya. So if the brahmins were complicit by their silence, then so were the ordinary Muslims.

[The second is the societal discrimination and backwardness of a people which can be corrected now. If a section of a society enjoys a privileged position to the detriment of others then, in a democratic society, the morally correct thing to do would be to deny continuation of that privilege. Given that there are a limited number of govt-funded college seats and government jobs, and that a section of society has had no history of education for it to qualify on merit alone for college seats, it makes sense to have positive discrimination.]

YOU are now confusing two issues. One is getting an education and jobs based on merit and skills. The other is societal discrimination. The fact that a brahmin wouldn`t give you water doesn`t mean that he got his education in the absence of merit. And exactly what was the education that the brahmins had till the British started schools in India? It was reciting the Vedas and passing it down through generations. Considering that the Vedas are in extremely archaic Sanskrit not understood today and the words in them are argued about in academic journals as to their meaning, that would be of no use in running the administration of a State. On the other hand, if the brahmins could analyze political situations and thus were useful to kings as advisers and ministers, it must be remembered that there was no Kennedy School of Government that they attended to get those skills. If they spent their time gazing at the stars and understood the laws of astronomy, there was nothing that prevented the Sudalaikkannus from arriving at the same conclusions independently as they lay under the stars nightly. So it is absolute nonsense for you to claim that brahmins monopolized knowledge and denied it to Sudalaikkannu. They denied knowledge of the Vedas to Sudalaikkannu, nothing more. The only jobs they could actually monopolize, as I had pointed out in other posts, were those of the temple priest and astrologer, none of which pays well and for which the Sudalaikkannus are NOT in competition anyway. On top of that, all of your Dravidian gods like Karuppannasamy, Ayyanar and Mariamman who demanded periodic bloody sacrifices of goats were left to the Sudalaikkannus and Sangilikkaruppans and the Valluvar caste provided priestly and astrological services to the non-Brahmins.

On the other hand, if the Brahmins didn`t want to interact with you socially, it is their God-given right to be left alone. If they denied you water on a hot summer day, they equally didn`t ASK for water from you if they were thirsty. If they didn`t give you their daughters in marriage, they didn`t ASK to marry your daughters either. They were an endogamous tribe as much as a Mudaliar, Chettiar, Thevar, Pallan or Paraian is. The Chettiars, Mudaliars and Thevars are even more conscious of untouchability TODAY than a brahmin is. To blame the lot of a Pallan or Paraian on a brahmin is to simply pass the buck. To say that the brahmins provided the justification for societal discrimination against them is to merely whitewash the sins of the Mudaliars and Chettiars. If you guys were so enlightened, why didn`t you lead a movement for the admission of the Dalits to temples? Even that was done by brahmin leaders.

This brahmin-bashing was used to demand that the British not leave India just like anti-Hindu propaganda was used by the Muslim League to demand that they would prefer continued British rule to independence. I am not at all surprised that people like you are currently finding common cause with Pakistanis; after all, your political ancestries rest on a common philosophy of unwillingness to compete on an equal playing field.

If you claim that the brahmins got their brains wired for the 21st century by honing the learning process and hence the non-Brahmins need special privileges and this justifies the ``affirmative action`` laws in India, please read my answer to your next comment.

[This has happened in other areas as well. The indian military no longer recruits only in the ``martial races``. In the business world, there are brahmins competing with traditional merchant castes.]

There was a picture of the three service chiefs in the newspaper the other day. Two, by their names, seemingly are South Indian brahmins (despite the fact that you guys nowadays seem to be upgrading your names from Maasanamuthu). Tell me that they got their jobs because Vajpayee is a brahmin. By the way, those guys wouldn`t give their daughters in marriage to the Vajpayee clan because South Indian brahmins don`t intermarry with North Indian brahmins; in fact they don`t intermarry outside their native language group and don`t intermarry with other subsects of brahmins in their own language group of which there are a dozen.

So what prevented the ``martial races`` from ascending to the position of Chief of the Army Staff or Chief of the Naval Staff? Why didn`t their brains get wired through centuries of warfare? Or, are you going to finally admit that you guys just can`t compete, won`t compete, and damn the logic?

[I would agree with you that it trivializes education to have so many engineering ``colleges``, which are nothing more than a building and a few computers. I think it would benefit everyone if there were fewer ``colleges`` and more technical schools where students learned crafts of various kind.]

Don`t worry. These are nothing but trade schools that teach coding in C++. They served a useful function by exporting a large number of their alumni to the US as code coolies. I can tell you that they can`t do anything but code. I am working on a software project here and the project team is simply incapable of designing a record structure for a simple straightforward file. I have to specify the EXACT record and cannot depend on them to design it based on the requirements discussions I have had with them.

One of the questions I was asked was: how did you come up with this approach to the problem at hand? I suppose I could have been unkind and said that it is because I am a brahmin and hence I have more analytical ability than them.... I merely said it is based on my 15 years of experience.

HaramiU

Are you one of those unemployed brahmins with too much free time on their hands that they sit around ans spin their webs all day? You`re one screwed up M *F *!

#138

unkalji,

``Of course, if you are one of the OBCs and you get to benefit by a quota programme, then logic goes out the window. If now you profess sympathy with the Muslims as one of the downtrodden, you can hope to increase your supporters without having to share any of the reserved positions with the Muslims; the ultimate case of having one`s cake and eating it too.``

I realize i`m quite likely wasting my time since the only way you can argue seems to be to cuss& swear. Will give it a shot anyway.

There are 2 separate issues here which you are mixing up for obvious reasons:

One is the misdeeds of past rulers which may or may not be correctible depending on how much a corrective action would affect the present-day ordinary citizens.

The second is the societal discrimination and backwardness of a people which can be corrected now. If a section of a society enjoys a privileged position to the detriment of others then, in a democratic society, the morally correct thing to do would be to deny continuation of that privilege. Given that there are a limited number of govt-funded college seats and government jobs, and that a section of society has had no history of education for it to qualify on merit alone for college seats, it makes sense to have positive discrimination.

This has happened in other areas as well. The indian military no longer recruits only in the ``martial races``. In the business world, there are brahmins competing with traditional merchant castes.

I would agree with you that it trivializes education to have so many engineering ``colleges``, which are nothing more than a building and a few computers. I think it would benefit everyone if there were fewer ``colleges`` and more technical schools where students learned crafts of various kind.

HaramiU

Are you one of those unemployed brahmins with too much free time on their hands that they sit around ans spin their webs all day? You`re one screwed up M *F *!

Ref Mullah321 #: 165

[Ha! Ha! Your posts certainly educated me a lot about India and its complex-ridden half-brains like you, Arjun, Jay, Ranaransher and half a dozen others who grace (or should I say disgrace) chowk with their presence.]

Do you have minority educational institutions in Pakistan? Do you even have minorities in Pakistan?

Yo mullah. Your mullah-hood is in full public view. I congratulated Pakistanis on the Magsaysay award to Dr. Ruth Pfau. Not one ackinowledgement from a single Pakistani of this nun`s selfless work for four decades. NOT ONE. I checked out Pakistan`s this year`s national awards list. Not one mention of Dr. Ruth Pfau. I know your thinking: Christians are by right our slaves and we don`t acknowledge anything done by the slaves because Allah has ordained that we are entitled to such services.

By the way, I did a Google search on Dr. Ruth Pfau. She trained for her work with leprosy patients in South India. That will answer the often-raised questions about what connections a South Indian might have with a Kashmiri in India. If the training received in South India can be used to benefit people of the Northern Areas, there is no reason why a Kashmiri from Srinagar cannot benefit by his association with a South Indian. They do share something: their common humanity, a point which seems to escape Pakistanis who harp on the tall, fair, handsome aspects of the Pak population as opposed to the short, dark folks of Dravidian stock.

Ref 12-headed-daal-yarrack #: 164

[Harami OU]

That spelling is a dead give-away that you are the 12-head.

[a PERSON FROM ``3RD ROCK FROM THE sUN `` VISITING cHOWK READS YOUR pOST ..DO YOU KNOW WHAT tHEY WILL SAY OF hindians LIKE YOU MORONS

``tHESE ANENCEPHALIC SPECIMEN WILL MAKE GOOD GUINEA PIGS FOR OUR MUSLIM SCIENTISTS WORKING TO BUILD THE iSLAMIC gLORIOUS cIVILIZATION ...THE MANUSCRIPT OF WHICH WE HAVE ..]

Can we send ALL Muslims who think like you to the 9th rock from the sun?

Glorious Islamic civilization, my a$$! Muslim scientist is the best oxymoron I have heard. As for that manuscript, that is the prescription for life in the 7th century in the Arabian desert and you guys don`t even have the brain to dump it and start reading the REAL Arabian classic, ``1001 Arabian Nights``.

[cANT BELIVE IT NO EVOLUTIONARY CHANGES OCCURED AS MENTIONED BY PROF qADIR OF NUCLEAR EXPERIMENT HOW HE FED THEM SMALL DOSE IN 1ST MELLINEUM THERE BY ARRESTING THERE BRAIN CONNECTIONS TO THINK!!``]

I am sure like a true scientist, he did his experiments on himself.

Xeroxing blueprints of equipment and suppliers is NOT a scientific achievement, unless pushing the copy button counts as scientific achievement for the Abduls and Ahmeds in The Land of The Pure.

PS. This recent identification with the L of the P: does that mean you have traded in your blue Indian passport for a green one?

harimau #158 ``Keep reading my posts and you are going to get a REAL education about India.``

Ha! Ha! Your posts certainly educated me a lot about India and its complex-ridden half-brains like you, Arjun, Jay, Ranaransher and half a dozen others who grace (or should I say disgrace) chowk with their presence.

Ref scout #: 161

[a little bit of advice, there`s more to life than wasting energy on hindu/muslim squabbles, and that`s exactly what you and others do every day on Chowk.

don`t you get bored?]

Do you think bending people out of shape -- rather, straightening them out -- isn`t interesting?

harimau #158,

a little bit of advice, there`s more to life than wasting energy on hindu/muslim squabbles, and that`s exactly what you and others do every day on Chowk.

don`t you get bored?

Reply Dost Mittar # 147, 148

“…my knowledge of the Indian constitution is not clear on this point. Is it the President`s duty to admonish the govt. or to give his consul in private to the prime minister? If it is the latter, I don`t think that Kalam should start his innings with a risky shot as he`s playing on a sticky wicket.”

The President, as far as I know, represents all of us. Little concrete power but a great deal of moral influence.

“Am I correct in assuming that even the educational institutions founded by religious organizations - for example Hans Raj and Khalsa Colleges in Delhi - are almost 100 per cent funded by the govt.?”

Maibaap sarkar and the ubiquitous “Building Fund”, I think.

Reply nasah # 151

“How about indian toddy in australia – “

Hasanbhai, given our convict type predilections, it’s only a matter of time.

Ref scout #: 150

[harimirch #142, ``So, a Hindu has to be real nice to Muslims but a Muslim can be nasty to Hindus, according to the law in India.``

dammit man, u guys have it rough over there. those terrible niceness/nastiness controlling laws.]

Finding out that contrary to all the propaganda you have been fed in The Land of The Pure that in India it is the Hindus who are subjected to government control must be a shock for you.

Keep reading my posts and you are going to get a REAL education about India.

But don`t move there. We still have ``talaq, talaq, talaq`` for your men and no alimony after 3 months for your women. All as the Prophet himself has ordained. And a subsidy for the Haj even though the Prophet said one should do it out of his own money. You Muslims are rather selective, aren`t you, when you quote chapter and verse from Al-Kitab.

Ref dost-mittar #: 148

[Am I correct in assuming that even the educational institutions founded by religious organizations - for example Hans Raj and Khalsa Colleges in Delhi - are almost 100 per cent funded by the govt.?]

No. Never 100% and usually far less. Generally, these private colleges in the good old days used to be started by some charitable trust formed for the purpose of starting a college with interested people making sizeable donations. In the good old days, Government help used to come in the form of land (either free in rural areas, or, in cities, acquired by the government by power of eminent domain and transferred at cost), grants from the University Grants Commission, etc.

Birla Institute of Technology and Science (Pilani, Rajasthan) refused government conditions as to admission of Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe candidates, OBCs, etc., on a non-merit basis. They don`t take a penny from the government and tell the government to go fcuk itself. The result is that BITS is as good an institution as the IITs.

Today, education is a big business. So the government won`t generally help you in getting land unless you are Lalloo Prasad Yadav`s brother-in-law in Bihar. The 265 engineering colleges in Tamil Nadu (there is no typo; there ARE around 265 engineering colleges started by the Sudalaikkannu types so that the Ra Ravishankars, Maasanamuthus and Sangilikkaruppans can get an engineering degree) invest about Rs 20 million to buy the land and build the first buildings and then use capitation fees and high tuitions to pay for the on-going support of the college... without reaching the academic excellence of a BITS for that would mean that Ra Ravishankar would be sweeping the floors there rather than studying there.

hobbes #154

Sheesh,... god only knows how I am going to communicate with you. OK, here goes:

THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN YOUR RAMBLINGS AND THE ARTICLE BY B. G. VERGHESE !! THE ARTICLE IS A VERY BALANCED SUMMARY OF RELATIONS BETWEEN COMMUNITIES IN INDIA SINCE INDEPENDENCE, DESCRIBING BOTH SUCCESSES AND FAILURES. IF YOU THINK THAT IT HAS ANY CONNECTION WITH YOUR ``THOUGHTS``, YOU ARE COMPLETELY OFF-BASE.

Did that help? If it didnt, I am afraid there is no hope...

Pmishra

What the matter now? I know, I have a mental disorder, and yet you want my wisdom? from the hip?

It is not my wisdom, it`s the authors - if you have a beef with it, counter it with argument and not a display of your ignorance.

``Zafar Al-Talib

Reply Rsax # 108

“...you found italian cafes in australia?...whoa…”

Where else yaar?(zafar)

How about indian toddy in australia -- Zafar miaN

hobbes #140

What is your point? Do you have a mental disorder? Are you unemployed and need some form of pretend employment?

You seem to have no idea who B. G. Verghese is (maybe you think he is a hindutva apologist!!!) and certainly no idea what he is speaking to.

Here is a modest request: please dont trash the work of distinguished indian journalists in the service of your inane theories. Just give us your wisdom, straight from the hip, as it were.

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harimirch #142, ``So, a Hindu has to be real nice to Muslims but a Muslim can be nasty to Hindus, according to the law in India.``

dammit man, u guys have it rough over there. those terrible niceness/nastiness controlling laws.

go on strike or something.

Ref 12-headed-snake-Nagnatheshwar #: 127

[Thats totally uncalled for

Mix up occur by Pilots, Doctors & presidents too]

Yep. Like the Saudia pilot who landed his 747 at the Tambaram Air base in Chennai instead of at the International Airport. Or the OTHER Saudia pilot who managed to fly his plane into another near Palam Airport in Delhi.

Mix up by doctors? Do you want to wash your own dirty linen in public?

Reply Hobbes # 132

“Zafar, do you think the VHP spokesman might have a point? “

Togadia is clearly trying to intimidate the Prez into not making any sort of statement which the Central Govt might find uncomfortable. IMO it’s Kalam’s duty as the President for the whole country to make a clear statement about what the Govt’s Raj Dharm is wrt Gujarat, where it failed so tragically – and, importantly, what it must do now. Will he do his duty or not? Let’s see.

Reply Rsax # 108

“...you found italian cafes in australia?...whoa…”

Where else yaar? Italy meiN thodi hothe hain.

Compared to the US Australia got a much higher proportion of its population growth after WWII from Southern Europe – Melbourne, or should I say Melvourni, is still the third largest Greek speaking city in the world, and used to be the second largest till it was overtaken by Thessaloniki about a decade ago – so the cultural influence of Italy, Greece (and Malta, Turkey and Lebanon) is greater on pop culture, including coffee drinking habits. (At least in the metros, where abuout 80% of the pop lives. If you go to Woopwoop, on the other hand…)

Reply arjun_m # 105

“What makes you think i would use my real name on the internet? :)”

Who’s to say whether chowk is more or less real than mundane reality? In some ways it is certainly more honest, regardless of which name one uses, no?

hobbes #133, pmisra #135, hobbes #140

The spectacle of an avowedly non-secular Pakistani working himself up into a foaming lather while pretending to instruct an outspokenly secular-minded Indian in the subtler aspects of Indian secularism would always make for rip-roaring comedy. But - given that our savant has lately been observed repeatedly muttering imprecations against `apologists`, `tokens`, `token-collectors`, `good Muslims `. etc. etc. ad amusem - his choice of an article by B G Verghese of all people, as his instructional text, lends this rollicking farce an additional piquantly ironic subtext of which the learned professor is in all likelihood blithely unaware.

[Since `independence`, Hindus have enjoyed a clear superiority in decision-making.]

[I read and (intend to) write about the effects of communalism/casteism, globalization etc.]

Stick this up your tailpipe.

Under current rules, minority institutions in India can choose admission criteria to EXCLUDE anyone based on their status as a majority, even when that institution receives government funding. Thus, a Muslim-founded college could receive financial aid from the government yet choose not to admit anyone except Muslims. The same thing applies to other minorities such as Christians.

However, since the law specifically says ``minorities``, a college founded by or associated mainly with Hindus has to admit Muslims and Christians if it receives government aid. This provision is being challenged before the Supreme Court right now and Soli Sorabjee, the Attorney-General of India (one would guess Mr. Sorabjee is a Parsi from his name), is arguing that this law is perfectly valid. (He is arguing for the Hindutva-dominated, BJP-led government, in case a$$holes like you miss the point.)

(Arya Samaj and Ramakrishna Mission have had to disassociate themselves from mainstream Hinduism to get the benefits of the above law.)

So, a Hindu has to be real nice to Muslims but a Muslim can be nasty to Hindus, according to the law in India.

Compare this to the United States. When the students enrolled in a college apply for and get Federal aid for their studies, the Federal Government has claimed that ALL non-discriminatory provisions of law apply. Presumably, the basis for this is that the aid the student receives goes to the college in the form of tuition and thus the college is also a beneficiary. Grove College in Pennsylvania cut off all students applying for Federal aid rather than accept this stringent condition and spend multi-million dollars on a female basketball team.

Kok-scuker, I want you to write about this on Chowk. I want to see the contortions you go through to justify this kaka.

[Though highly misleading, I have persisted with the use of `independence`. This should be taken to mean, following Kaifi Azmi, the transition from `gora hakim raj` to `kaala hakim raj`.]

No, you mufukka, in Tamil Nadu you have attained the height of Tamil civilization.

Last week, a college girl went to a movie with her boyfriend in Chennai. A bunch of students from the New College for Arts and Sciences were also at the theater and called out to her, ``yeh, Nee romba azhaga irukkey``. (This happens to be the title of a recent movie and means ``Hey, you are very beautiful``.) The girl, being the daughter of an army man, did not take this kaka and objected to the vulgar familiarity. When the abusers continued, she slapped one of them. In return, they started hitting her and a passing policeman intervened. When he was overpowered, he called for reinforcements and a couple of the miscreants were arrested and thrown in jail while the girl was admitted to the hospital. This type of events certainly did not happen until Doctor Artist Leader, known for writing movie scripts, ascended to the Chief Ministership of Tamil Nadu. We now know exactly what kind of raj we have in Tamil Nadu where a good-looking girl cannot venture out of her home.

You, Kaka Dispenser, should find this story heartwarming for an entirely different reason. The leader of the gang who happens to be the Student Union President of New College is a Muslim; he was accompanied by his Hindu classmates. The girl who was attacked is named Grace so one would assume she is Christian. Finally, we have attained secularism under Dravidian leadership!

Pmishra2

Entirely too defensive; Critical reading is necessary for comprehension - ``Hindu fanatics Read`` - so that they may understand their psychosis - ``Tokens learn `` so that they may understand what ``secular-ism`` does and does not mean - As for you, close your mouth, it attracts flies and (wait, wait for it) pay attention! learn to think as you read:

``GUJARAT has rent the country asunder by questioning the very idea of India. The Muslim League tried to divide people but failed ...``

The fabric of the idea of India has been torn by the events in Gujjrat - Muslim league failed when it tried but who is it that is now tearing the fabric of India? What is the political and religious affilication of this group?

``That the forces of Hindutva should now seek regressively to validate the two-nation theory is both-tragedy and farce``

Hindutva forces, HINDUTVA - get it yet genious? Who is validating TNT?

``The immediate task at hand is to rehabilitate the victims of hate in Gujarat..``

Question: Someone has been victimized - who has been victimized? Who was the victimizer?

``Civil society must step in to fulfil this solemn duty from which the Central and Gujarat

governments have resiled.``

Who has failed to prevent the tearing of the fabric of the idea of India?

``The larger task is to mend India. This calls for introspection about what has gone wrong. Why should a section of Parivar Hindus feel oppressed and inferior when they are so obviously part of the dominant majority and ruling elite in every sense? Why this warped self-image, the lurking grudge and retreat into the dim past when it is the future that beckons?``

What went wrong? Parivar Hindus feel oppressed and inferior - are you a Parivar Hindu by any chance?

At one level, the ordinary mingling and jostling of everyday living in India has produced a remarkable inter-cultural penetration over generations in every field. Maybe at another level, there has been a relative absence of meaningful social discourse in recent times, with community leaders talking at rather than with one another. Where there is dialogue, the terms of discourse have been skewed.

``Yet the constantly reiterated concept of sarva dharma sambhava implies equal respect for all faiths, not atheism; for India is a highly religious society. “Equal respect” is, however, difficult to practice when so little has been done to teach even the rudiments of the great religious traditions that flourish in the country.``

Secularism does not mean that we do not teach ethics and morality of the great religions in our schools - As I have been trying to impress upon Eklavya. All the principles of Ethics and Morality that one needs and that have served for thousands of years are in the religions - they are the basis of the religions teachings.

``Sarva dharma sambhava has at best established a sense of “separate but equal”, quite the opposite of fraternity, the major social premise of the Constitution.``

``Seperate but equal`` has come into the the common consciousness based on supreme court decisions of which country? What did the decisions seek to do or undo?

``The term “secular” was not found in the Constitution (except in Article 25 where it is

used in its “wordly” meaning) until inserted into the Preamble by Indira Gandhi in 1976.``

In other words lets examine if we have not gone over board with this notion of separating the state from the ethics and morality, most derive from their religious teachings and which have been an anchor for india thruough the millenia.

``The Founding Fathers rightly preferred the broader and nobler term Fraternity

(togetherness, bonding, brotherhood) which encompasses much more than “secular” or sarva dharma sambhava. Unfortunately, the meaning and practice of secularism was soon distorted.``

``Togetherness`` not separtion - You getting this yet, genius?

``The adjustment of deep-seated mind-sets and primordial emotions to changing political, economic and technological circumstances takes time. India is going through such a period of transition. The process has been slow and halting because social reform and the concept of fraternity have not been given the importance they deserve in nation building witness the ham-handed manner in which matters of “official language” or cross-community and elite-to-people communications have been traced. The country has been all but bereft of social reforms after Gandhi and Ambedkar and, maybe, Vinoba Bhave and Jayaprakash Narayan. “Godmen” are no substitutes.``

``Godmen`` - which ``Godmen``? - You following?

``Another flaw in the country’s secular framework lies in the political investment made in the expression “minority”.``

What? you been talking about flaws? in The ``Secular`` framework? Do you think he means that there are structural problems that have lead to the present situation? Does that means tokens (you know who you are), when they say Muslims are percieved as X or Y or Z by the ``Majority`` community, do not acknowledge that the flaws is structural and has little to do with the actions or not of the ``minority`` ?????

``The Constitution recognises religious, linguistic and cultural minorities who are

accorded the right “to establish and administer educational institutions of their choice” and guaranteed protection of their customary laws and way of life (if Scheduled Tribes). These are valid safeguards that are not constitutionally extended to the majority community in terms only because they hold the reins of governance in their hands in any democratic calculus.``

Is this fair - are all citizens equal or not???? apparently not - how is that? It is built into the structure of the understanding of Democracy in India - and I hope never in Pakistan - for it will be betrayal for sure. No subsidies for particular groups, no privelages for particular groups or individuals.

``Recognition of a minority implies the existence of a majority. A person’s religion for the most part is an accident of birth and less of independent persuasion, except by adult choice or conversion.``

Back to religion and sectarian complexion??

``Faith essentially is and should be personal, though rituals are prescribed and

administered by religious establishments. Furthermore, individuals do take part in congregational worship and other observances and community festivals, many of which are, however, becoming secular occasions, market opportunities and, alas, even political manifestations.``

In other words, even if one has to repeat the meaningless notion, that faith is personal, as opposed to what? It does find public ``expression`` - Alas, it won`t stay bottled up and ``personal``.

``Unfortunately, faith has been politicised and, religious communities/denominations,

like caste, sought to be treated as vote banks. This has put a premium on numbers and electoral/political power, whereas being part of a “minority” or “majority” is in many ways more a matter of attitude than of numbers. A self-assured, well-educated, confident Parsee, Sikh, Christian or Muslim seldom sees himself as a “minority” as he can hold his own among the rest. The same can be said about the “son of the soil” (bhoomiputra) once he knows he can withstand economic and social competition on merit. It is the weak, uncertain and diffident who suffer a minority complex``

``faith politicised``? Why? What is the purpose of politicising in such a melieu? Is it true that politics in India and for some in Pakistan, is about ``demanding`` X, Y, or Z, basically a politics of confrontation and agitation? So to what bidder has faith been sold to ? Does this suggest a flawed understanding of ``secular-ism``? Does this point to a structural problem???

``Similarly, the Hindutva crowd constitutes a vociferous minority in India because of the strange inferiority complex it exhibits. This condition calls for correction through dialogic therapy. Both majoritarianism and minorityism should be eschewed.``

``In any event... “minority”... derogates from the principle of equality of citizenship and has by wrong usage come to imply a patron-client relationship.``

You gettin this?

[It hasn`t got any better since then, as is evident from the PUCL report on the 1997 riots in Coimbatore. The bomb blasts in January 1998 were triggered by a section of Muslims incensed with police brutality, in particular, with the murder of several Muslims by the police and the HR in November 1998.]

I suppose that the recent movie ``Minority Report`` made a strong impression on your infantile brain. That is the only way one could set off bombs as a consequence of an act that would follow 10 months LATER.

Ra Ravishankar? You should change your name to Kaka Dispenser. Let us see how wonderfully consistent your arguments are.

Premise 1:

[The Indian state is not answerable for the misdeeds of past rulers, who had no qualms about securing justice, liberty and equality to their citizens. In the absence of hard evidence, the most reasonable way to deal with claims of compensation (such as those made by the HR) seems to be to maintain the status quo, as of August 15, 1947.]

Fine, everything stays static from Aug 15, 1947.

Premise 2:

[The fact that the HR has to resort to events of the distant past to justify its pogrom against Muslims is a giveaway that successive governments have been anything but anti-Hindu. Feelings of having been wronged by the Muslims are therefore, entirely misplaced (2). In retaliating against Muslims to avenge the misdeeds of Mahmud of Gazni et al, the HR ends up emulating those it claims to despise. Whether this reflects its hypocrisy or moral and intellectual bankruptcy (or both) is open to debate.]

Great! The Govt of India and its constituent states have no business attempting to right past wrongs. On Aug 15, 1947, India starts off with a clean slate.

Conclusion:

The Mandal Commission had no business recommending 50% reservation of all educational and employment opportunies for backward classes. In fact the 25% reservation for 25 years guaranteed in the constitution was incorrect, its indefinite extension was in correct and increasing it to 50% was incorrect.

But Kaka Dispenser says [The implementation of the Mandal Commission Recommendations (advocating reservations in education and jobs for the socially underprivileged classes), and the backlash orchestrated by the media and the Hindu upper castes further strengthened the HR.] without criticizing the Mandal Commission or denouncing its recommendations.

Of course, if you are one of the OBCs and you get to benefit by a quota programme, then logic goes out the window. If now you profess sympathy with the Muslims as one of the downtrodden, you can hope to increase your supporters without having to share any of the reserved positions with the Muslims; the ultimate case of having one`s cake and eating it too.

Of course when you have 87% reservation for the OBCs, Kaka Dispenser gets into an engineering college and is granted a degree in electrical engineering whereas his real qualifications will entitle him to a job as a sanitary engineer with the local municipality.

But having come to the US, Kaka Dispenser finally has a chance to discover the true meaning of being blind to history. Just like blacks and Hispanics can GET INTO colleges on the basis of their ethnicity buy CANNOT GRADUATE on that basis alone, Kaka is going to find out that he will have to do his 4 year undergraduate degree FOR REAL if he is to earn a PhD even from the University of Southwestern Arkansas.

Ref rsaxena #: 129

[re: harimau

{Ref Sangilikkaruppan}

...who?...]

The guy who claims he loves Soysauce on everything even though he grew up on karuvattu-kuzhambu.

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...India accomplished the accession of princely States into India BEFORE it developed a strong federal constitution...``

There has been a miscommunication somewhere. I intended to state that a strong centre (unlike the one proposed by the Cabinet Mission Plan of `46) was needed by Congress`s reckoning to manage the chaos of amalgamating 535 princely states. None of these had acceded in `46 (they didn`t have to until `47 anyway).

hobbes #133

Do you bother to read the articles you publish? Perhaps you skipped reading and were only taught to cut and paste in your educational institution?

In complete contrast to your sectarian preface, the article in question is a carefully reasoned exposition of the growth and strength of the ``secular`` or ``sarva dharmma sambhav`` model of the indian state. It is written with care and does not blame all of the problems in india on any one community.

Blood thirtsty Hindu fanatics - READ, apologists and toens - Learn

From ``The Tribune`` dtd today

``The Indian idea: towards fraternity-I

Secularism, religion, culture & minority syndrome

B. G. Verghese

GUJARAT has rent the country asunder by questioning the very idea of India. The Muslim League tried to divide people but failed and had to rest content with dividing territory. Though partitioned, India remained India, something more than just geography. It embraces the history, culture, values and aspirations of a richly plural society and combines many streams and traditions down the ages.

That the forces of Hindutva should now seek regressively to validate the two-nation theory is both-tragedy and farce. This will not succeed. Yet, it represents a challenge that needs to be confronted by dialogue and reconciliation. The immediate task at hand is to rehabilitate the victims of hate in Gujarat and ensure that their citizenship is made whole again through justice, the restoration of dignity and removal of fear.

The word “rehabilitate” in its original sense meant ‘to invest with dignity’, a noble intent far removed from the squalid official pretence in Gujarat. Civil society must step in to fulfil this solemn duty from which the Central and Gujarat governments have resiled.

The larger task is to mend India. This calls for introspection about what has gone wrong. Why should a section of Parivar Hindus feel oppressed and inferior when they are so obviously part of the dominant majority and ruling elite in every sense? Why this warped self-image, the lurking grudge and retreat into the dim past when it is the future that beckons?

At one level, the ordinary mingling and jostling of everyday living in India has produced a remarkable inter-cultural penetration over generations in every field. Maybe at another level, there has been a relative absence of meaningful social discourse in recent times, with community leaders talking at rather than with one another. Where there is dialogue, the terms of discourse have been skewed.

Secularism, for instance, is a basic feature of the Constitution, literally and Article of Faith. The dictionary meaning of “secular” is to be wordly and in the Indian context the term was perhaps meant to signify separation of the church from the state. Yet the constantly reiterated concept of sarva dharma sambhava implies equal respect for all faiths, not atheism; for India is a highly religious society. “Equal respect” is, however, difficult to practice when so little has been done to teach even the rudiments of the great religious traditions that flourish in the country.

Sarva dharma sambhava has at best established a sense of “separate but equal”, quite the opposite of fraternity, the major social premise of the Constitution. The term “secular” was not found in the Constitution (except in Article 25 where it is used in its “wordly” meaning) until inserted into the Preamble by Indira Gandhi in 1976. The Founding Fathers rightly preferred the broader and nobler term Fraternity (togetherness, bonding, brotherhood) which encompasses much more than “secular” or sarva dharma sambhava. Unfortunately, the meaning and practice of secularism was soon distorted.

The Muslim underclass was orphaned at Partition with the exodus of many among the community’s elite and professionals to Pakistan. Its residual leadership vested with “nationalist Muslims” and the clergy after the integration of princely states and zamindari abolition effectively removed the latter two categories from the political scene. To a traumatised community besieged by uncertainty, it appeared prudent to cling to orthodoxy. Modernising Muslim tendencies for years received short shift from the government in the name of a touch-me-not “secularism”.

Culture is far wider than religion. But failure to distinguish the one from the other further distorted the meaning and practice of “secularism”. Urdu, a rich and uniquely Indian language, was an early “Muslim” casualty because of its part-Persian legacy. Few who make such fatuous denominational distinctions realise that a good part of their English usage in ordinary conversation draws a great deal from the Bible. The Oxford English dictionary is said to contain over 3000 Indian words. This is enrichment, not aggression.

Everyday way-of-life customs such as bhoomi puja, saraswati puja or the celebration of Vishwakarma are correspondingly criticised as “Hindu” rituals violative of secularism if performed on public platforms. There is no such regressive thinking in Indonesia, the world’s largest Islamic state or Buddhist Thailand and Cambodia all of which celebrate their “Hindu” cultural roots. The great Muslim exponents of Hindustani music sing in praise of Ram and Krishna. The blending of “Hindu”, “Muslim” and other traditions in food, dress, architecture, rituals, festivals, sufi-rishi practices and much else is evident all over India.

The teaching of history has been distorted by an unreal categorisation into so-called Hindu/ancient and Muslim/medieval periods emphasising dynastic rule and mutually antagonistic heroes and villains. In truth, after the first Muslim conquest, later invaders were challenged by Hindu-Muslim coalitions and overthrew extant Muslim regimes in Delhi. Beyond the court circle, Hindus and Muslims shared the same joys and suffered similar oppression at different times. The people’s history of India was not denominationally segmented.

However, revivalists see things differently. For Some, history ended around 1000 AD with the Muslim conquest. Honour was only restored in 1947. In Hindutva’s new parlance, Porus’s battle against Alexander was the “first war of Independence” and the 1857 Revolt the second. Muslim revivalists on the other hand mourn the period after Plassey as a Dark Age of servitude. The rise and growth of Islam happened to coincide with the ascendancy of the Caliphate whose ending after World War I saw some in India seeking its restoration. It took a while after Independence for such elements to come to terms with the reality of nation-states and to reconcile themselves to the fact that secular India was not Dar-ul-Harb. On the other hand, the genius of Hindu India has been to make space for everybody and accommodate divergent tendencies within a greater oneness.

The adjustment of deep-seated mind-sets and primordial emotions to changing political, economic and technological circumstances takes time. India is going through such a period of transition. The process has been slow and halting because social reform and the concept of fraternity have not been given the importance they deserve in nation building witness the ham-handed manner in which matters of “official language” or cross-community and elite-to-people communications have been traced. The country has been all but bereft of social reforms after Gandhi and Ambedkar and, maybe, Vinoba Bhave and Jayaprakash Narayan. “Godmen” are no substitutes.

Another flaw in the country’s secular framework lies in the political investment made in the expression “minority”. The Constitution recognises religious, linguistic and cultural minorities who are accorded the right “to establish and administer educational institutions of their choice” and guaranteed protection of their customary laws and way of life (if Scheduled Tribes). These are valid safeguards that are not constitutionally extended to the majority community in terms only because they hold the reins of governance in their hands in any democratic calculus.

Recognition of a minority implies the existence of a majority. A person’s religion for the most part is an accident of birth and less of independent persuasion, except by adult choice or conversion. Faith essentially is and should be personal, though rituals are prescribed and administered by religious establishments. Furthermore, individuals do take part in congregational worship and other observances and community festivals, many of which are, however, becoming secular occasions, market opportunities and, alas, even political manifestations.

Every individual has multiple identities defined by sex, age (child/senior citizen), occupation, cultural attributes/preferences, interests and so forth. This may render him/her a majority under one category and a minority under another. Dr Karan Singh has often said that he is part of the majority community in India, but is a minority in J&K though again restored to majority status in Jammu.

Likewise, Sikhs are the majority community in Punjab and Christians in Mizoram and Nagaland. Often, however, people do not change as much as their appellations do. The label “minority/Muslim” or “majority/Hindu” is not necessarily what they themselves choose but what is pinned on them. It is the others’ perception that gives one his/her public persona. Ehsan Jafri died not because of what he was but for what he was perceived to be by a frenzied and misguided mob.

Unfortunately, faith has been politicised and, religious communities/denominations, like caste, sought to be treated as vote banks. This has put a premium on numbers and electoral/political power, whereas being part of a “minority” or “majority” is in many ways more a matter of attitude than of numbers. A self-assured, well-educated, confident Parsee, Sikh, Christian or Muslim seldom sees himself as a “minority” as he can hold his own among the rest. The same can be said about the “son of the soil” (bhoomiputra) once he knows he can withstand economic and social competition on merit. It is the weak, uncertain and diffident who suffer a minority complex

Thus Sinhalese often betray a minority psychosis vis-a-vis the minority Tamils in Sri Lanka. Similarly, the Hindutva crowd constitutes a vociferous minority in India because of the strange inferiority complex it exhibits. This condition calls for correction through dialogic therapy. Both majoritarianism and minorityism should be eschewed.

In any event, it is quaint to describe the 130 million and more Muslims in India as a minority. This is to drain words of meaning. At best Muslims are a “minority” in relation to Hindus, no more. The term in fact derogates from the principle of equality of citizenship and has by wrong usage come to imply a patron-client relationship.

Hence the RSS formulation that minorities must “earn” the goodwill of the majority community. The Canadians have dealt with this problem more creatively by formally labelling their tiny Inuit (Eskimo) community the country’s “second majority”.

Article 30 gives minorities the right to run their own educational institutions. These enable them to make senior appointments and “administer” these institutions and to reserve up to 50 per cent of admissions to members of their own community even though they are beneficiaries of government aid. The width and ambit of this Article is currently being argued before the Supreme Court.

The Arya Samaj and Ramakrishna Mission have in the past pleaded minority status to be able to establish and administer their own institutions. This is odd; but answers can be found to such conundrums. However, it is not obvious that minority educational rights discriminate against the majority in any real sense. Ultimately, what matters is conformity to prescribed standards and, more than that, excellence — whether the institutions be convents or madarsas or shishu mandirs and vidya bharatis run by the Sangh Parivar.

(To be concluded)

The writer is Visiting Professor, Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi``

Zafar

From Hindustan Times - dtd today:

``Kalam visit creating suspicion’

President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam arrives in Gujarat on Monday on a two-day visit amid controversy. His visit is being considered significant as the victims of the disturbances in Gujarat belong to the minority community.

``His action in selecting Gujarat as his first official destination has created suspicion in the minds of Hindus,`` VHP international secretary Pravin Togadiya said in Ahmedabad on Sunday.

``It is now up to the President to clear the suspicion that he is above religion, caste or creed,`` Togadiya said.``

Zafar, do you think the VHP spokesman might have a point?

re: harimau

{Ref Sangilikkaruppan}

...who?...

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[Fear, hatred or resentment of the minorities is understandable if

i). they have been in power for a long time and have consistently discriminated against the majority, like the erstwhile apartheid regime in South Africa..]

Tell us poor ignorant sods who was in power in Delhi from around 900 AD to about 1800 AD. Was it somebody named Jayavarma or Chandragupta?

How about all those freebooters from Afghanistan or Uzbekistan who got a job as a faujdar or khiledar in the Mughal army because their names were Anwaruddin Khan or Khuda Bux? Would that be a merit-based selection in your eyes?

How about the fact that a tax called the jizya, at as high as one-third of the agricultural income, was laid only on non-Muslims? Would that count as equal treatment in your eyes?

Let us come farther south. Who do you think the Nizam of Hyderabad was, a Hindu? Did his dominion consist of a majority of Muslims?

How about Mysore? Do you think Tippu Sultan was a Hindu who is held in such esteem by Pakistanis that they have a warship named for him?

Can you tell me who the Nawab of Arcot was? Let me give you a clue: he was not Hindu, Jain, Christian, Parsi, Buddhist or Jewish. By the way, his descendant is fighting the Wakf Board of Tamil Nadu in courts and his stormtroopers pulled down the walls of a mosque in Trichy a couple of

months back; but that is okay. It would be okay with you if he pulled down some Hindu temple in Trichy too.

Can you name the last faujdar of Chinglepet? Did you even know that Chinglepet had a Muslim army stationed there? Do you know who Chanda Sahib was?

Did you know that every single village had a Muslim governor in Tamil Nadu whose annual income (in the 1700s) was Rs 200,000 to 300,000? Try converting that into today`s currency: your calculator will have an overflow error.

DO YOU HAVE ONE CLUE ABOUT THE HISTORY OF INDIA?

[ii). successive governments have allowed the minorities a free rein at the expense of the majority. Since `independence`, Hindus have enjoyed a clear superiority in decision-making.]

Let us take one example of the ``clear superiority`` of the Hindus in decision-making. Muslims are being paid a subsidy to undertake their Haj pilgrimage by the Government of India. Hindus, contrary to what a bunch of boot-licking a$$holes have posted on Chowk, are not paid one red cent to subsidize a trip to Ramanathapuram or Benares or Mt. Kailash. Recently, the Govt of India suggested that the Haj subsidy should be eliminated in steps. The suggestion was that it should be extended only to those over 50 in age, and only once in a lifetime. The Haj board immediately turned down the suggestions and Omar Abdullah (son and anointed successor of Farouk Abdullah) said that the Haj subsidy should not be politicized.

The Muslims of India want to fcuk four women as it their God-given right but do not want their hands cut off as specified in the Koran if they steal. Let me tell you one thing: the thugs of Tamil Nadu have gone one better than the Sharia. Just last week, one Muslim ``businessman`` who failed to return his loans was dragged out of his car in broad daylight in Chennai and had his throat slashed like a bakra. Let us extend the Sharia all the way, I say; not just to fcuk four women or to divorce by saying ``Talaq, talaq, talaq`` but by getting stoned to death for adultery and getting beheaded for blasphemy. Let us give them an Islamic way of life. I want to see one-armed petty thieves all over India.

[Advani`s yathra in an air-conditioned Toyota left a trail of blood in its wake, culminating in the destruction of the Babri Masjid in December 1992.]

It was so much better in the good old days, wan`t it, when Babur rode on a horse and got the Ram Temple pulled down in Ayodhya?

Would it have met with your approval if Advani had used a white horse instead of an airconditioned Toyota? After all, it is that additional dollop of comfort that seems to bother you. Oh no; Advani should have pulled down a HINDU temple to meet with your approval.

[The implementation of the Mandal Commission Recommendations (advocating reservations in education and jobs for the socially underprivileged classes), and the backlash orchestrated by the media and the Hindu upper castes further strengthened the HR.]

Let me give you ANOTHER clue. The constitution of India set aside 25% of jobs and educational opportunities for a defined period to erase past discrimination. The Mandal Commission recommended that the set-asides be increased to 50%. In your Tamil Nadu, already 87% of all opportunities are set aside for OBCs. So, how much farther do you want the country to fall behind because some Sudalaikkannu or Sangilikkaruppan wants a college degree? Do you think your beloved Doctor Artist Leader gets his treatment from one of those OBC doctors? You fcukers pay for his trip to New York just like you paid for that a$$hole MGR or The Great Intellectual Elder Brother`s treatment in the US.

[I am a native of Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu. Currently, I am in the US, pursuing a PhD in Electrical Engineering. I read and (intend to) write about the effects of communalism/casteism, globalization etc.]

How about telling us who is the accused in the Coimbatore bomb case? Is it a Hindu?

So, where are you doing your PhD, University of Southwestern Arkansas?

I bet you are one of those 87% OBCs from Tamil Nadu. Tell you what: if you convert to Islam, they are offering you a pukka house in your hometown AND a job in Saudi Arabia courtesy of all the money that is flowing into India for conversion. That is actually a better deal than what people got in earlier days when the alternative was the swift sword of death.

Keep writing articles like this but make sure you have a jar of Vaseline handy for when those guys come to sodomize you.

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RE: Reply #: 104 dost-mittar

``And my big complaint against Nehru is not that he was a socialist -... - but that he ignored the nuts and bolts of governance, such as developing an honest, efficient, motivated and dedicated administration.``

Methinks you blame Nehru too much. The rot in the political system started setting in during his daughter`s rein when she figured out that Nehru`s concept of a benevolent all giving government could be turned into a tool to strengthen her tenuous hold on power by selectively distributing government favors and largesse to those who kowtowed to her. Remember that she was the one who started nationalizing just about every industry in sight.

re rsaxena 120 and harpeet 121

Gentlemen, you`re attempting to teach modern geography to someone whose geographical context consists of two entities only- Darul Islam and Darul Harb. This fellow hasn`t been to a higher-studies madrassa where the subtle sub-divisions of Darul Harb are explained in detail. Perhaps we could all pool some dough and get him a ticket to the Islamic University of Gaza or the Medina University of Islamic Sciences?

re: ali1

{We know exactly what you mean, beta..... you were busy ogling matadors in tight pants, right?}

...someone tell this homo mullah that matadors are in spain and south america, not italy...the dangers of inbreeding...tsk tsk...

ali1;

Sicily is in Italy, Matadors are from Spain.

-h-

Ref Sangilikkaruppan #: 102

[Good article overall. No mention of Meenakshipuram tho?]

How about you and the author forming a lynch mob against those who refused to give you water?

By the way, a$$hole, in a village in Tamil Nadu, where Dravidian parties have held the reins of power since 1967, a tea vendor was arrested for serving tea to Dalits in glass tumblers while serving to tea to his fellow castemen (Thevars) in stainless steel tumblers so that caste pollution may be avoided. If you don`t know it already, nobody has yet promoted the Thevars to the status of Brahmins.

You, the author and quite a few others need to go get your dicks cut off and join some other religion if you don`t like being Hindus.

By the way, you guys might also want to move to that paradise for minorities known as Pakistan.

Ref Eunuch1 #: 116

[Hey Nagalingum (Chuhalingum?) you can start using your real name now. Your Naag (Rat?) Bhagwan will protect you.]

Naag (Rat?)/

No.

Naag (Snake).

You are welcome.

Reply # 108 rsaxena

[``i went to this one cafe in palermo, sicily, and i must tell you, the coffee was the last thing i noticed...if you know what i mean....``]

We know exactly what you mean, beta..... you were busy ogling matadors in tight pants, right?

Reply # 105 arjun_m

[``What makes you think i would use my real name on the internet? :)``]

Hey Nagalingum (Chuhalingum?) you can start using your real name now. Your Naag (Rat?) Bhagwan will protect you.

Fawad #44

Re. Saeed Naqvi`s article.- I agree in retrospect that it didn`t address the issue of your binary typology of Indian Muslims - `apologists`, including self-haters, and `fanatics`; although it did address the issue of cultural diversity, which is part of what I wanted.

On the other hand, the author of the article, Saeed Naqvi, is a well-known journalist who has frequently been critical of the current and previous governments (see his other columns if you don`t believe me), yet is certainly not a fundamentalist - thus an excellent example of somebody who defies your classification. Other well-known journalists and publicists who would break your proposed classification for the same reasons include M J Akbar, Seema Mustafa and Asghar Ali Engineer.

I can mention Dr. Yusuf Hamied, chairman of CIPLA - who was fairly outspoken on at least one occasion after the `93 riots in Bombay - as someone who similarly defeats your classification. And these folks are just the visible peaks on a huge population.

None of these folks have given up on the Indian system. Those who make that demand of Muslims in India as a test of `authenticity` are going to be overwhelmingly disappointed.

fawad79
On judging whether Kalam is a `self-respecting Muslim` for accepting the post of President offered by the BJP government.

AlephNull has made excellent points to which I will add that Kalam was a professional for at least 30-35 years in a technical field, and as a government servant, not a politician or social activist. As a government servant, it would have been highly inappropriate for him to associate himself in his official/professional capacity with `Muslim` or any religion-specific organisations exactly like it would have been inappropriate for a Hindu government servant in his position to associate with `Hindu` organisations whether controversial ones like the RSS or innocuous ones like the Ramakrishna Mission. His critics who say Kalam didnot associate himself with the Muslim cause have clear double standards because they would call any Hindu in a similar position a fascist if he similarly chose to associate with `Hindu` causes.

As for whether post-Gujarat he should have taken a stand by refusing the post, thats a valid question, IMO. A person in his position with the right intentions(which are yet unclear) has to make a choice, can he make more of a difference by being reactive and refusing the post or by being proactive and becoming President? Its a tough call and I am happy he chose the latter course. He will be judged by what he chooses to use his influence for in future. btw, Kalam will be in office for five years, longer than the current government which will be facing general elections in approx. two years.
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The joke is if Kalam had been Pakistani he would be perhaps been either exiled or killed and sent to Islamic hell by state blasphemy law, for quoting the Gita while in a official position or still thinking of himself as Muslim(and what to say if he was a Ahmedi as well).

If Kalam had been East Pakistani, he might have been killed by Pakistanis along with tens of thousands of others for being a `Kali-worshipping` Mohammadi or being a lesser Muslim for having the wrong mothertongue or complexion.

If he had been Afghan, he might have been among the tens of thousands killed by heaven-seeking Pakistanis. Or he might be striving to bring normalcy back among the rubble of Kabul thoughtfully sponsored by Pakistani ideology, strategic depth and artillery.

And this is just part of it. As a Muslim, Kalam could insist that India break off ALL contact with Pakistan for a long time to come.

Fawad #78

{aka self-hating if there was a racial riot in LA and blacks were slaughtered and colin powell didnt speak how many black people do you think will accept that the man is ``black`` .....lets be real and not hide behind politcally correct screens like aleph nulls}

Colin Powell? An intriguing choice indeed. More than 60 people were killed in the LA riots following the Rodney King trial ... admittedly many of them were non-black. Small numbers of black people have been killed in disturbances in places like Cincinnati. The cases of Amadou Diallo and Abner Louima received wide publicity. I may have missed it, but I don`t recall Colin Powell going public in a single one of those instances. Are we to infer that Secretary Powell is a `self-hating black man` - a `good black` - a `token black` - an `Uncle Tom` - an `Oreo` - a `house n * * * * *`` - etc. etc. ad nauseam? Is it possible to be less compulsively outspoken than Al Sharpton or Louis Farrakhan or the Rev. Jesse Jackson, and yet be a self-respecting black man? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Fawad #78

Let us examine more of Fawad`s `facts`.

{kalam was appointed by the BJP and is part of a BJP govt ............whether or not he belongs to the party is irrelevant he has accepted the job.......}

WRONG. India`s President is *elected * (by an electoral college made up of national and state legislators). He is not *appointed *; in India it actually makes a difference. Nor is he self-appointed, unlike in some neighbouring countries. And while some past Presidential elections have actually been fiercely contested (most famously that of V.V.Giri in the late 60s), there is a tradition of seeking a Presidential candidate acceptable to as wide a part of the political spectrum as possible. The point is that the post of President is above and independent of any particular party or government, and therefore he should preferably be seen as above divisive partisanship

In Kalam`s case, his name appears to have been first proposed by Mulayam Singh Yadav of the Samajwadi Party - hardly a Sangh Parivari. And if he was nominated by the NDA, he was supported by the Congress and every major party except the Communists. Kalam has such wide public acceptability that no mainstream party could be seen to oppose him outright.

{kalam didnt speak out about gujrat ..........again aleph null pointed out that did i consider that he didnt speak out against kashmir terrorism by pakistan........or that kalam should speak out against violence against all indians........this is a cheap cop out}

Well, let`s see:

Datelined June 19th 2002 (i.e., shortly after Kalam`s nomination for President, but prior to his election):

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jun/19prez1.htm

``Gujarat violence painful: Abdul Kalam``

and breaking news:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/09prez.htm

``Kalam picks Gujarat for his first official visit``

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/10prez.htm

``Kalam`s plan to visit Gujarat rattles Sangh Parivar``

Events have a way of making monkeys out of all of us. Narendra Modi and company ought to be having kittens. Some people may of course now sneer that Kalam`s visit is just part of a devious Hindutvavadi plan to whitewash anti-Muslim violence in Gujarat.



{wonderful noncommunal BJP ever thinkof giving this guy a portfolio with powe and please dont tell me his was minister of science that position has little if no power}

That is a remarkably ignorant and short-sighted remark. Don`t extrapolate from Pakistan, where Begum Abida Hussain - who AFAIK has no scientific or technical background - was previously Minister for Science and Tech. Even Air Chief Marshal Romair has shown more sense than you - he has been seen pinning his long-shot hopes for Pakistan`s IT development on the current Science and Technology Minister Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman, who actually has a scientific background.

``That position has little if no power`` ONLY if the incumbent fails to have an impact. It`s like saying R&D is of no importance to a firm`s bottom-line. Technology or manufacturing companies that take that point-of-view (like many old-school desi companies did) may survive for a while but are destined to long-term extinction. Similarly, developed nations see scientific and technological advances as the crucial engine of future economic well-being. From the US to Japan to Finland to Israel, they all take their technology policies extremely seriously. Independent Indian has always placed great importance on scientific and technological development, even if her citizens have not achieved a fraction of what they could have.

Science and technology would have been the ideal portfolio for Kalam, because it dovetailed so perfectly with his interests. He is a technological utopian - he believes in the power of technology to radically change the quality of a nation`s life. He has actually thought a great deal about the subject. Try to look at his book ``India 2020: A Vision for the New Millenium``, if you can. It is a roadmap for India`s development. The chapters include - `Food, Agriculture and Processing`, `Materials and the Future`, `Chemical Industries and our Biological Wealth`, `Manufacturing for the Future`[, `Strategic Industries`, `Health Care for all`, `The Enabling Infrastructure`. To give you an idea, he spends a page each discussing the prospects for increased production of titanium and of rare earths, in each of which India has among the largest reserves in the world; 2 pages each on aluminium, composites, ceramics, superconducting materials, 3 pages on advanced sensors, etc. etc. You can disagree with his vision, but you cannot fault his interest or in-depth involvement.

Incidentally Kalam reviews the technology visions of several other countries - the USA and Europe, Malaysia, China, Japan, Korea and Israel. Pakistan finds no mention. You can decide whether this is an intentional slight or something else.

So if power means the ability to make underlings jump and cringe and cower - to break peoples` heads - to order the police to fire on rioting mobs, or NOT fire on rioting mobs - to make 111 Brigade move on the Prime Minister`s residence - I agree that Kalam was offered a post with little or no power. But if it means the ability to make the biggest positive difference to peoples` futures, Kalam was offered a post with the most power he could possibly have hoped to exercise.