Urstruly August 6, 2002
#661 Posted by Urstruly on September 10, 2002 9:55:51 am
Dear Readers,
As this article was published at Chowk, the Chowk went through a transition and upgrade of its site. Originally, the Chowk staff did a wonderful job by establishing links in the Reference and Footnote section of this article. During this transition those links were lost. I am re-printing this section at the bottom for those who are still taking an ineterst in this article and those who want to verify the info or want to explore the subject further.
Thank you for your continued interest and my special thanks to those who have shared their valubale insight in this article through their posts. I would also like to thank those who have opined to me directly through their e-mails.
4.0 REFERENCES & FOOTNOTES:
[Ref: 1] Blasphemy Law: Facts and Figures By Muhammad Abdul Haye, Bradford, UK
http://www.markazdawa.org/englishweb/islami-articles/200204/blasphemy.htm
[Ref: 2] Khutbaat-e-Bahawalpur by Dr. Mohammad Hamidullah; Idara-e-Tehqeeqaat-e-Islami, Islamabad, Pakistan.
[Ref: 3] Islamic Law: Myths and Realities by Denis J. Wiechman, Jerry D. Kendall, and Mohammad K. Azarian:
http://muslim-canada.org/Islam_myths.htm
[Ref: 4] King James Reference Bible –
http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/index.htm
Acts 6:11 ``Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.``
Acts 7:58-59 ``And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man`s feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.``
Mark 14:62: ``Jesus was accused of blasphemy. The high priest asked Jesus Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?. Jesus replied I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:64 and Luke 22:70 contradict Mark`s account; they record Jesus as sidestepping the question. However, Christ was still found guilty of blasphemy.``
Matt 19:7 `` The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.``
[Ref: 5] Quoting from the King James Version of the Bible:
http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/index.htm
Jehovah required the state to execute a person:
For following another religion: Exodus 22:20 states: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. See also and Numbers 25:1-15.
For proselytizing (conversion): Deuteronomy 13:1-10 states that a person who tries to convince an Israelite to convert to another religion must be killed.
[Ref: 6] The Noble Qura`n – translation by Yousafali, Pickethall, and Shakir with introduction to the chapters by Syed Abul Ala Mawdudi
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/#M
[Ref: 7] Kanz-al-Imaan, Tafseer (explanation) by Syed Mohammad Naeem-ud-din Muradabadi, written as footnote with the translation of Qura`n by Aala Hazrat Ahmad Raza Khan Quadri Brelvi (RAH)
[Ref: 8] Bukhari writes in his book 9 chapter 19 and also in his ``Kita’b al-Jiha’d wal-Siyar``, ``Kita’b istitabah al-murtaddi’n`` and ``Kita’b al-ai`tisa’m bil-Kita’b wal-Sunnah``
[Ref: 9] Abu Dawood have quoted several Ahadith mentioning punishment for apostasy and blasphemy in his book Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud) Book 38, Ahadith # 4345; 4346; 4348; 4349; 4356 and 4357. The hadith # 4357, that follows 4356 is worth noting. These Ahadith can be viewed at:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html
[Ref: 10] Human Rights in Islam by Dr. Parveen Shaukat; Adam Publishers, Delhi India; also A.S. Tritton in his book “The Caliphs and their non-Muslim Subjects” says that the offences of fornication with a Muslim woman or an attempt to marry one, an attempt to pervert a Muslim from his religion, acting as a spy or a guide to the unbelievers and killing of a Muslim man or woman made a Non-Muslim citizen an outlaw. P-16
[Ref: 11] Al-Nissa (The Women) 4:140 “And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah`s communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell (tr: Shakir)
Al-Anaam (Cattle) 6:68 “And when you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse, and if the Shaitan causes you to forget, then do not sit after recollection with the unjust people.” (tr: Shakir)
[Ref: 12] ``There is no compulsion in religion``, the theme is reiterated in these verses 16:82; 6:107; 4:79,80; 11:28; 17:53 to 54; 21:107 to 109; 22:67; 88:21,22; 24:54; 48:28; 36:16, 17; 39: 41
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/#M
[Ref: 13] Abu Dawood in his book Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud) Book 38, Number 4339: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu`minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah`s Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html
[Ref: 14] Mis/Representations of Islam:A Study of Salman Rushdie`s The Satanic Verses, and `The Rushdie affair` Written by Ismail Isa Patel (London, England: May 1998)
http://www.trueislaam.free-online.co.uk/literature/rushdie.htm#text
[Ref: 15] United Nation`s Universal Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
[Ref: 16] The Last Sermon of Holy Prophet (pbuh)
http://www.pakistanlawyer.com/smlaw/lastsermon.htm
[Ref: 17] Muhammad Ali, The Religion of Islam (nd), pg. 591-99; S.M. Zwemer, The Law of Apostasy in Islam (1924); Burhan al-Din Ali, The Hedaya, etc., Hamilton, (1791), II, 227. (F.M. Denny).``
[Ref: 18] The Muslim Conduct of State by Dr. Mohammad Hamidullah
[Ref: 19] Mere Mash’hoor Muqaddamay by S.M. Zafar; Chapter: Adalat nay ek mauqa kho diya; Bright Books, Lahore, Pakistan.
#660 Posted by sattar2 on September 9, 2002 1:55:40 pm
Urstruly,
I glanced over the link you provided … did not see anything new there. I think by now you know my position on these issues.
Furthermore, calling Ahmadi-Muslims … “Fitnah-e-Quadianiat” … proves nothing. Lack of arguments on your part speaks louder than your rhetoric. Think things over with a clear head … without any grudges. Having struggled against me on Islamic beliefs over all these years … you owe it to yourself. Being stubborn will only deprive you.
I glanced over the link you provided … did not see anything new there. I think by now you know my position on these issues.
Furthermore, calling Ahmadi-Muslims … “Fitnah-e-Quadianiat” … proves nothing. Lack of arguments on your part speaks louder than your rhetoric. Think things over with a clear head … without any grudges. Having struggled against me on Islamic beliefs over all these years … you owe it to yourself. Being stubborn will only deprive you.
#659 Posted by Urstruly on September 7, 2002 2:09:07 pm
Sattar
How do you comment:
http://www.jang-group.com/jang/spedition/khatm-e-nabut7sep2002/index.html
http://www.jang-group.com/jang/spedition/khatm-e-nabut7sep2002/index.html
How do you comment:
http://www.jang-group.com/jang/spedition/khatm-e-nabut7sep2002/index.html
http://www.jang-group.com/jang/spedition/khatm-e-nabut7sep2002/index.html
#658 Posted by sattar2 on September 4, 2002 8:23:31 am
Partick,
Some thoughts on a formal definition (definition B) of a “Muslim” …
As I understand it … the formal definition of a Muslim is … one who subscribes to the “Islamic” articles of faith, i.e. … Oneness of God, divine prophets, divinely revealed Books, angels, day of judgment, and decree of Allah.
Now, before one wants to know if a person is a Muslim or not … it is important to find out the context and nature of this inquiry.
For example … the government may want to find out how many people subscribe to which faith … in order to better plan allocation of resources. A voluntary survey in this case would be adequate … where a person who declares himself a Muslim …or a Hindu … is considered a Muslim … or a Hindu, etc. This is consistent with the example from the life of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) … who once asked that a survey of this nature be taken in Medina. I am sketchy on details … but from I recall reading … the criterion set by the dear Prophet (pbuh) was that … if a person claims to be a Muslim … count him as a Muslim.
In case if a person dies … and does not leave a will …it may become important for the state to determine his faith for the purpose of inheritance. In such a case some simple guidelines regarding one’s faith and pertinent inheritance laws may be employed. In most cases this is fairly straightforward … unless the deceased practiced a blurry combination of beliefs … without clear emphasis on any particular religion. This of course is one’s prerogative … and it is the state’s job to earnestly decide regarding the belonging of the deceased.
Now, at a personal level … one may further refine one’s definition of a Muslim, according to his own understanding of Islam … or according to the definition of a learned person that one holds as an authority. For example, a person may consider me a non-Muslim due to my belief in continuation of prophethood. Such a pronouncement is a matter between God and this person only … and does not concern me.
Similarly … as I pointed out in post #689 … belief in Quran may also be interpreted in various ways. As a result … a person who believes in only parts of Quran … may be declared a non-Muslim by some (I am not hinting anything regarding Naqshbandi/Urstruly here … just stating some random thoughts).
As I understand, such pronouncements at personal levels … are the right of an individual … may or may not please God Almighty (which is an entirely different matter) … and are not a concern of the state.
Comments from anyone will be appreciated.
Some thoughts on a formal definition (definition B) of a “Muslim” …
As I understand it … the formal definition of a Muslim is … one who subscribes to the “Islamic” articles of faith, i.e. … Oneness of God, divine prophets, divinely revealed Books, angels, day of judgment, and decree of Allah.
Now, before one wants to know if a person is a Muslim or not … it is important to find out the context and nature of this inquiry.
For example … the government may want to find out how many people subscribe to which faith … in order to better plan allocation of resources. A voluntary survey in this case would be adequate … where a person who declares himself a Muslim …or a Hindu … is considered a Muslim … or a Hindu, etc. This is consistent with the example from the life of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) … who once asked that a survey of this nature be taken in Medina. I am sketchy on details … but from I recall reading … the criterion set by the dear Prophet (pbuh) was that … if a person claims to be a Muslim … count him as a Muslim.
In case if a person dies … and does not leave a will …it may become important for the state to determine his faith for the purpose of inheritance. In such a case some simple guidelines regarding one’s faith and pertinent inheritance laws may be employed. In most cases this is fairly straightforward … unless the deceased practiced a blurry combination of beliefs … without clear emphasis on any particular religion. This of course is one’s prerogative … and it is the state’s job to earnestly decide regarding the belonging of the deceased.
Now, at a personal level … one may further refine one’s definition of a Muslim, according to his own understanding of Islam … or according to the definition of a learned person that one holds as an authority. For example, a person may consider me a non-Muslim due to my belief in continuation of prophethood. Such a pronouncement is a matter between God and this person only … and does not concern me.
Similarly … as I pointed out in post #689 … belief in Quran may also be interpreted in various ways. As a result … a person who believes in only parts of Quran … may be declared a non-Muslim by some (I am not hinting anything regarding Naqshbandi/Urstruly here … just stating some random thoughts).
As I understand, such pronouncements at personal levels … are the right of an individual … may or may not please God Almighty (which is an entirely different matter) … and are not a concern of the state.
Comments from anyone will be appreciated.
#657 Posted by Urstruly on September 4, 2002 5:47:31 am
Chowk Staff:
What have you done to atleast 20 of my latest replies. Reply # 675 on this page is not mine and does not belong to this thread. I have seen it somewhere else.
What have you done to atleast 20 of my latest replies. Reply # 675 on this page is not mine and does not belong to this thread. I have seen it somewhere else.
#656 Posted by sattar2 on September 3, 2002 3:35:02 pm
Patrick …
Here are some thoughts on the issue of ``Muslim``. Since I am not a scholar in religious affairs … some skepticism on your part may serve you well.
In my opinion, “Muslim” may have two meanings …
A - Generally understood, it would imply a person who submits to the will of God
B - The term “Muslim” was eventually formalized in Islam … as one who believes in the message of Quran and prophethood of Mohammad (pbuh).
As I understand it … and is stated in Quran … God Almighty sent prophets to all nations throughout the history of mankind. Upon close examination, it become reasonable to assume that … Buddha was one such prophet … sent for reformation of his nation. So were Ram and Krishna … and Conficius and Zaratushtra … and Christ and Moses and Mohammad … and so on … to name only a few. All these prophets conveyed the message of Unity of God … and emphasized love and compassion towards all of God’s creations. It is only later that the messages of the prophets got changed at the hands of people, over time, and some prophets were even elevated to the status of gods.
These men conveyed the message of God Almighty … and were accepted as divine messengers from God Almighty by their people. In that sense … according to Definition A … followers of these prophets would be considered “Muslims” … as people who submitted to the will of God, accepted His messengers, and tried to live their lives according to the divinely revealed principles.
Now, according to my understanding … all these prophets mentioned the coming of a universal prophet … who will eventually unite the mankind under the banner of Unity of God … and God’s universal commandments. This universal prophet … as I understand it … is Prophet Mohammed … a messenger not for a particular nation … but for the entire mankind. He conveyed Quran … which is directed not to any particular nation … but to all believers … regardless of their national origin, race, or color.
I’ll pause here for now … and will try to post on the definition B of a Muslim.
Here are some thoughts on the issue of ``Muslim``. Since I am not a scholar in religious affairs … some skepticism on your part may serve you well.
In my opinion, “Muslim” may have two meanings …
A - Generally understood, it would imply a person who submits to the will of God
B - The term “Muslim” was eventually formalized in Islam … as one who believes in the message of Quran and prophethood of Mohammad (pbuh).
As I understand it … and is stated in Quran … God Almighty sent prophets to all nations throughout the history of mankind. Upon close examination, it become reasonable to assume that … Buddha was one such prophet … sent for reformation of his nation. So were Ram and Krishna … and Conficius and Zaratushtra … and Christ and Moses and Mohammad … and so on … to name only a few. All these prophets conveyed the message of Unity of God … and emphasized love and compassion towards all of God’s creations. It is only later that the messages of the prophets got changed at the hands of people, over time, and some prophets were even elevated to the status of gods.
These men conveyed the message of God Almighty … and were accepted as divine messengers from God Almighty by their people. In that sense … according to Definition A … followers of these prophets would be considered “Muslims” … as people who submitted to the will of God, accepted His messengers, and tried to live their lives according to the divinely revealed principles.
Now, according to my understanding … all these prophets mentioned the coming of a universal prophet … who will eventually unite the mankind under the banner of Unity of God … and God’s universal commandments. This universal prophet … as I understand it … is Prophet Mohammed … a messenger not for a particular nation … but for the entire mankind. He conveyed Quran … which is directed not to any particular nation … but to all believers … regardless of their national origin, race, or color.
I’ll pause here for now … and will try to post on the definition B of a Muslim.
#655 Posted by krashid on September 3, 2002 3:49:06 am
Hobbes #683
Since this thread is moving into oblivion, would you care to elaborate, on this or another thread.
I think you have used a very practical definition, submission to the will of God (And nothing or no one but God)
Its many implications from hitory. What is the meaning of submission, who determines it, role of individual, role of state etc.
I would appreciate, if you continue.
Since this thread is moving into oblivion, would you care to elaborate, on this or another thread.
I think you have used a very practical definition, submission to the will of God (And nothing or no one but God)
Its many implications from hitory. What is the meaning of submission, who determines it, role of individual, role of state etc.
I would appreciate, if you continue.
#654 Posted by Urstruly on September 2, 2002 5:25:41 pm
PM
I fully agree with Asif`s definition of Muslim and Islam.
Asif:
I think Iman-e-Mujamil and Iman-e-Muffasil detail all the beliefs that a MUslim have to belive in to be a Muslim (PM: These two Arabic phrases are the titles of the compendium of the set of beleives that Asif wrote down for you). But now as long as Fitnah-e-Quadianiat (the tumult of Quadianiat) is around we must teach our children by reiteration, the belief of finality of Prophet Mohammad`s prophethood. For centuries, the iteration of this belief was not considered necessary because it was a given as evident as the belief of presence of Allah. I just wanted to add that.
I fully agree with Asif`s definition of Muslim and Islam.
Asif:
I think Iman-e-Mujamil and Iman-e-Muffasil detail all the beliefs that a MUslim have to belive in to be a Muslim (PM: These two Arabic phrases are the titles of the compendium of the set of beleives that Asif wrote down for you). But now as long as Fitnah-e-Quadianiat (the tumult of Quadianiat) is around we must teach our children by reiteration, the belief of finality of Prophet Mohammad`s prophethood. For centuries, the iteration of this belief was not considered necessary because it was a given as evident as the belief of presence of Allah. I just wanted to add that.
#653 Posted by Prem on September 2, 2002 3:22:45 pm
All this happy and polite discussion involves some dose of reality. But that at some other time.
Best.
Best.
#652 Posted by PM on September 2, 2002 3:07:02 am
re. Asif N:
Asif, Sorry. I don`t klnow how i could have missed that penultimate paragraph in your reply re. definition of Muslim.
Thank you.
Asif, Sorry. I don`t klnow how i could have missed that penultimate paragraph in your reply re. definition of Muslim.
Thank you.
#651 Posted by krashid on September 2, 2002 3:07:02 am
PM #681
That is an interesting question?
I may have to think on it further.
The thing which comes to my mind right away is the message itself, meaning Quran. Which abrogated or superseded the previous commandments.
It is further specified by Ayah (which are in two places in Koran) that whoever believed in God and do good, whether a believer (meaning Muslim) or Christian or jew or Sabian will have his reward from God. (here the meaning of God is related to monotheism).
If you see those Ayahs of Quran specifying other prophets and their folowers as Muslim, it is very clear that to be called a Muslim one need only to believe in One God without any partner. This clearly means that belief in prophet Mohammed is not necessary to be called a Muslim. Otherwise Ibrahim and other prophets would not be called Muslim.
Thus only thing which comes to mind is that the uncorrupted message which is Quran according to itself is a ``Furqan`` meaning differentiating between right and wrong. And to do that you have ultimately to belief in prophethood of Mohammed PBUH.
As far as majority of Muslims donot believe in that. I can only say that it is the God who is judge in afterlife and no amount or number or eloquence of people will change anything on that day. But unfortunately lot of people have taken this job into their own hand. That means deciding for other people even after the CLEAR message has come.
That is an interesting question?
I may have to think on it further.
The thing which comes to my mind right away is the message itself, meaning Quran. Which abrogated or superseded the previous commandments.
It is further specified by Ayah (which are in two places in Koran) that whoever believed in God and do good, whether a believer (meaning Muslim) or Christian or jew or Sabian will have his reward from God. (here the meaning of God is related to monotheism).
If you see those Ayahs of Quran specifying other prophets and their folowers as Muslim, it is very clear that to be called a Muslim one need only to believe in One God without any partner. This clearly means that belief in prophet Mohammed is not necessary to be called a Muslim. Otherwise Ibrahim and other prophets would not be called Muslim.
Thus only thing which comes to mind is that the uncorrupted message which is Quran according to itself is a ``Furqan`` meaning differentiating between right and wrong. And to do that you have ultimately to belief in prophethood of Mohammed PBUH.
As far as majority of Muslims donot believe in that. I can only say that it is the God who is judge in afterlife and no amount or number or eloquence of people will change anything on that day. But unfortunately lot of people have taken this job into their own hand. That means deciding for other people even after the CLEAR message has come.
#650 Posted by hobbes on September 2, 2002 3:07:02 am
Muslim means one who submits to the will of God - The three branches of monotheism, continually ask for the realization that God`s will is supreme and that happiness is founded on this realization.
Islam means only submission to the will of God.
Were muslim and Islam not be ``brand`` names and regarded as what the words also mean, I think, a deeper, more substantial and most definitely more redemptive religiosity would be allowed space for growth.
Islam means only submission to the will of God.
Were muslim and Islam not be ``brand`` names and regarded as what the words also mean, I think, a deeper, more substantial and most definitely more redemptive religiosity would be allowed space for growth.
#649 Posted by PM on September 2, 2002 3:07:02 am
re. Asif N:
Asif, Sorry. I don`t klnow how i could have missed that penultimate paragraph in your reply re. definition of Muslim.
Thank you.
Asif, Sorry. I don`t klnow how i could have missed that penultimate paragraph in your reply re. definition of Muslim.
Thank you.
#648 Posted by krashid on September 2, 2002 3:07:02 am
PM #681
That is an interesting question?
I may have to think on it further.
The thing which comes to my mind right away is the message itself, meaning Quran. Which abrogated or superseded the previous commandments.
It is further specified by Ayah (which are in two places in Koran) that whoever believed in God and do good, whether a believer (meaning Muslim) or Christian or jew or Sabian will have his reward from God. (here the meaning of God is related to monotheism).
If you see those Ayahs of Quran specifying other prophets and their folowers as Muslim, it is very clear that to be called a Muslim one need only to believe in One God without any partner. This clearly means that belief in prophet Mohammed is not necessary to be called a Muslim. Otherwise Ibrahim and other prophets would not be called Muslim.
Thus only thing which comes to mind is that the uncorrupted message which is Quran according to itself is a ``Furqan`` meaning differentiating between right and wrong. And to do that you have ultimately to belief in prophethood of Mohammed PBUH.
As far as majority of Muslims donot believe in that. I can only say that it is the God who is judge in afterlife and no amount or number or eloquence of people will change anything on that day. But unfortunately lot of people have taken this job into their own hand. That means deciding for other people even after the CLEAR message has come.
That is an interesting question?
I may have to think on it further.
The thing which comes to my mind right away is the message itself, meaning Quran. Which abrogated or superseded the previous commandments.
It is further specified by Ayah (which are in two places in Koran) that whoever believed in God and do good, whether a believer (meaning Muslim) or Christian or jew or Sabian will have his reward from God. (here the meaning of God is related to monotheism).
If you see those Ayahs of Quran specifying other prophets and their folowers as Muslim, it is very clear that to be called a Muslim one need only to believe in One God without any partner. This clearly means that belief in prophet Mohammed is not necessary to be called a Muslim. Otherwise Ibrahim and other prophets would not be called Muslim.
Thus only thing which comes to mind is that the uncorrupted message which is Quran according to itself is a ``Furqan`` meaning differentiating between right and wrong. And to do that you have ultimately to belief in prophethood of Mohammed PBUH.
As far as majority of Muslims donot believe in that. I can only say that it is the God who is judge in afterlife and no amount or number or eloquence of people will change anything on that day. But unfortunately lot of people have taken this job into their own hand. That means deciding for other people even after the CLEAR message has come.
#647 Posted by hobbes on September 2, 2002 3:07:02 am
Muslim means one who submits to the will of God - The three branches of monotheism, continually ask for the realization that God`s will is supreme and that happiness is founded on this realization.
Islam means only submission to the will of God.
Were muslim and Islam not be ``brand`` names and regarded as what the words also mean, I think, a deeper, more substantial and most definitely more redemptive religiosity would be allowed space for growth.
Islam means only submission to the will of God.
Were muslim and Islam not be ``brand`` names and regarded as what the words also mean, I think, a deeper, more substantial and most definitely more redemptive religiosity would be allowed space for growth.
#646 Posted by PM on September 1, 2002 8:13:02 pm
re. Asif Naqshbandi:
Thanks for the considered reply. Will reply in more detail later, but would, at the moment, ask if u could please tackle the other part of the question, re. whether Hazrat Ibrahim, or Musa or Adam were also Muslims.
Thanks.
PM
Thanks for the considered reply. Will reply in more detail later, but would, at the moment, ask if u could please tackle the other part of the question, re. whether Hazrat Ibrahim, or Musa or Adam were also Muslims.
Thanks.
PM
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