Common Things

samina,
What a wonderfully written piece!
There are a lot of `obvious` things which have been deftly avoided, that someone else might have succumbed to and produced a common, maybe even treacly piece in trying to write a `real` piece, with all the attendant filth and smear of the setting. But you haven`t.
Having said that, this is something that should belong in a story, a larger narrative even.
there are parts I like, signs of good writing, and at first glance,usually found only `deceptively simple(whatvery that means!) -
like ``...and others in tongas, to rent and to replace``.
forget the criticism, but what`s important is it evokes an image, is very usual.that`s terribly important in writing. good work! sorry about hte loooong response.

why are u people so obsessed with whores, and pimps and hera mandi ?

i mean their are better things to write on then this , this is sick.

Hello,

This is quite nice story.

Ashraf Gohar Goreja

zabardast....y the women......y for trade...soundreally creative not like the bourgeouse whogo there for the sake if it and for mentioning it in teh drawing room literary circle

#24 Zehra

I agree with her you....and hope you had the awesome tavva chicken there....the best I have ever had!!

Can`t wait for the next piece, keep up the good work!

This was nice. Very.

Sadrang #68:

:) and welcome!

[…Shouldn`t it be ``Waft praises of the Lord``..]

brief answer:…yes it could be

_______________________________________________

optional longer reply:

this is what the urdu version had:

Aur naz’d-o-doo’r minarouN say
Oos ki azmat ki sada
Ghubar aalood fiza say
KaanouN main tairti hay.

And the English came as:

Floating through the fog
From the mushrooming minarets
Wafts praises of the Lord.

…since I keep on playing with words till am satisfied (or give up, not!), was not happy with the last three lines and have changed it since posting first to this:

From the mushrooming minarets
Floating through the fog
Wafts in praises of the Lord.

But am not totally happy with this either and would have a go at this after some time has elapsed.

thanks for your interest,

rgds,

t

temporal #48:

Shouldn`t it be ``Waft praises of the Lord``

Great job.

great article,i must appreciate the effort that the writer ,ade in transffering the feelings and emotions so powerfully.

saxena..

oh you poor misguided soul you..i shall have to avoid any buses or neighborhoods that you frequent, just for that..`cause then, then, well then my violent colors would shine through and i`d have to make a human pinyata out of you as well!!! :)

raveena #63, ``...just because rsaxena called your queen latifah act on the other board, doesn`t mean you have to stalk him on every board now...``

him? raveena beti, i know you`re a girl, so no use trying to pretend. besides, no one in their right minds would even think about stalking u.

re: spout

{leave t-bhai alone or i`m gonna come down to ur neighborhood and turn u into a human pinata.}

...just because rsaxena called your queen latifah act on the other board, doesn`t mean you have to stalk him on every board now...

re: ana

...if i spot a nerd on the bus, i make sure all the kids on the bus know and jeer till the nerd gives up his/her nerdy ways...

raveena #55,

leave t-bhai alone or i`m gonna come down to ur neighborhood and turn u into a human pinata.

saxena

no--temporal writes in esperanto! but why should that matter. are you like one of those ign`nant folks on the bus who scream at us for speaking in any language other than English because we DO live in America afterall..America, the land of the free...geez louise!!!!

there are two ana`s floating about right now..one with a capital `A`, and then there is `i`, with the small `a`...the annumannu (not to be confused with hanuman, please)..just so you`re aware, and so the ana`s won`t be confused...mein `ana` hoon, `Ana` nahin. Some of yous all already know this..but just in case

tidbit: vaise I was a total `angrez ki bachchi` *grin *. My Urdu was just awful..I`m amazed that I got promoted from one standard to the next, so miserably bad I was. Arre, I would have just been happy with `theen ka bandar, ghar ke andar`, but nooooo, they wanted pages and pages of `tashreeh` on `Hamdardi`...vat ees thees?! Seriously though, as gratifying as it was to get great comments on my character sketch of Antonio (merchant of venice) and my compositions, it meant even more to get the very very rare positive comments on my Urdu essays :). And now every time I open a book of poetry, `specially Faiz or Ghalib, I am very thankful that my parents kept me in a school where Urdu was taught (and that I remember enough for Faiz and Ghalib to make sense!) So all the best with your functional Urdu..hope it`s functional enough to enjoy Kishwar Nahid, Fahmida Riaz and Ishrat Aafreen (and the male poets, but of course)

love,

ana

Saxena..

ah...ask not whether he knows, but whether he really gives a ----

re: ana

{Rehan`s email addy is ansarirehan@hotmail.com.}

...does he know you`re advertising his e-mail address and inviting 12-head to stalk him?...

...does temporal write English?...

Tidbit #54,

i`m not trying to pick on u, u seem like a nice person, but all Pakistanis do is `start.`

yeah, a start`s important, but not if it ends rite there.

Ana: your version is much better...thanks =o)...waisay its not that im a complete angrez ki bacchi...its just that my Urdu is miserably bad...u know what`s uncanny though?? i adore that last stanza too...cheers to that :)

Temporal: LOOOOL...im getting `some` from the `horse`s mouth` itself this semester...functional urdu class that i gotta take...helping me tremendously...and would u believe the professor actually thought that my Urdu ka essay was very well-written??? *gasp *...there is a God after all... *grin *

Scout: Yup its very sad...but writing about it is a start isn`t it?? =o)

Tidbit #51:


[...too bad I can only understand translations and not the real thing ...]

---if am not too intrusive, you are there, na?...then what is stopping you from getting it `straight` from the horses mouth?...

.....(swoooosh-dhooooosh....imagine an invisible broom hittng me on the head)...

arey bhayee hum bhee aap kay jaisay thay aik zamanay maiN...phir kuch achchay dost aur ustaad mil ga`aye:)

lve,

t

Tidbit..

thanks for that poem..you are right..nothing compares to the original..a curmudgeon poet-writer-in-residence (!) on chowk mentions the difficulty of translating Faiz in one of his posts, is it on this board? Khair..here`s another translation of the same poem

It Is as Though Nothing Exists Anymore

It is as though nothing exists anymore,

neither sun nor moon.

nor night nor morning

I may have heard the footsteps

of the last passerby in the street;

or, very probably, it was an illusion.

No dream builds its nest in the branches

of the tree known as imagination

There is no love, no hate, no friendship,

no ties at all--none. No one belongs

to you; no one is mine.

Even though this dire moment is upon us,

remember, my heart, it is only a moment.

It`s courage we need: after all,

terrible as it is right now,

what`s left of our life remains to be endured.

(translated by Naomi Lazard)

---------

it`s one of my favorite poems too..I wish you could read the original :). I`ll type the last few verses in Roman Urdu..

Maana ke ye sunsaan ghaRRhi sakht kaRRi hai

lekin mere dil ye to faq`t aik hi ghaRRi hai

himmat karo, jeenay ko tau aik `umar paRRi hai

May we all have this `himmat`, this courage in the years to come.

love, ana.

P.S. good to know that Lahore `grew` on you! I`ve been away from it for far tooo long, and I never stop thinking about it..tho` I know much is changed, and I get the streets confused when I`m trying to recall something with my mum.

Dear Ana...found a lil bit of Faiz for u..one of my fav poems by him...too bad I can only understand translations and not the real thing =o(

It Seems at This Moment...(Iss waqt tu yun lagta hai)

It seems at this moment nothing exists-

no moon, no sun, neither darkness nor dawn.

In front of the eyes` windows, some beauty behind the laced curtain

and in the heart`s shelter has come to stay some pain.

Perhaps it was some illusion, or just something I`d heard about-

on the street that sound of the last footfalls.

Perhaps in this dense tree, in fancy`s boughs,

no dream will ever come to seek refuge.

No estrangement, no affection, no involvement

nobody is yours, for me nobody a stranger.

It`s true that this lonesome moment is very cruel

but, O my heart, this is only one such moment.

Take courage, there`s all the time to live on.

(translated by shiv k. kumar)

____________________________________________

nothing compares to the original...

Happy Independence Day everyone!!!

rgds,

Samina

fawad,

i did answer your question earlier about places to learn Urdu..but there must have been a glitch with some of my posts..they did not get posted. `nyways..hopefully this will.

Check out Columbia U. I`m quite positive they have classes in Urdu..I don`t know much about schools in nyc, tho` I had considered going to school there a few years ago. If you want to teach yourself, I think there may be some good books that have come out..I saw one at one of our independent bookseller`s here, but I never looked through it to see what it was like. I used to think my Urdu was thooti phooti until I visited my aunt and uncle in upstate NY..and they kept complimenting me on how well I spoke, and how `nafees` my Urdu was..LOL. And so did their friends! It was really bizarre :). One of the Indian students commented on how I speak Urdu in a Punjabi accent, because rather than saying `nahin`...I say `nayin`! And ever since she`s said that I`ve become more conscious of it. `nyways..`tis good you want to learn to read and write Urdu. Do check out Columbia..or look up some of the other colleges and unis..let me know what you find out. :)

Samina jaan,

Apparently my last post to you got eaten up by the Chowk goblins..Rehan`s email addy is ansarirehan@hotmail.com.

He says he contacted you at the email address he has. Is that not the same one `nymore? Khair, that`s his address. Chowk goblins have been consuming quite a few of my posts lately...and the less controversial ones. Vat gives?!

:)

ana various:

ok…small a it’ll be:)

the daagh-daagh ujala one from faiz..i see Zakkk put it up in english on yasser’s board…am writing one too…shall put it here later…

sammi #43:

...thanks…your description was very interesting…do you have a contact number or email addy?…must enquire if they have an opening for a curmudgeon-in-residence…shhh..let me know discreetly…would like to beat hamdim to it!

[…From the payzayb to the gung`roo, such a continuum...] good line…paa’zaib...paa = foot...zaib = decoration…it is worn by the shru’faa…and then we have ghung’roo!…what a continumm...

…hey…once a writer…:)…que sera sera…the true pursuit of life, liberty, happiness, whatever…SO…the moral…keep writing…and overcome lethargy and contribute here…(goes for you too zehra: and what is this? chowk has never intimidated you before) heheh…even romair has gone solo here!

And since the morrow brings forth the 14th/15th here is my contribution:

lve,

t

_________________________________________________


ZAIR-E-MINAR

Nis’f sadi beet chuki
MaaN ab bhee handiya hila rahi hay
Aur bachchay
Jo ab bachchay nahiN rahay
Ab bhee pathra’ee aankhouN say
Handiya taktay haiN.

Aur naz’d-o-doo’r minarouN say
Oos ki azmat ki sada
Ghubar aalood fiza say
KaanouN main tairti hay.


UNDER THE MINARET


Been over fifty years and
The mother is still stirring the pot
The children
Now no longer children,
Expectantly, w(e)arily
Stomachs bulging
Look life-less.

Floating through the fog
From the mushrooming minarets
Wafts praises of the Lord.

Zehra..

[but too much is left out]

--Like what for example? :) I`d be interested in what you would add. I think that ``Sex on the roof on one side, or its visibility at least. Praying in the Badshahi Masjid on the other side, or the idea at least. `` says quite a bit. Of course one can always add more (or take away in my case), but I`d like to know what you would add.

saminashah, thanks.

never been to the middlesex place.
i love sonia sanchez`s work..discovered her when i as living in philly. your p`town experiance sounds just lovely...
im looking to get away to some place peaceful and leave NYC to write...like providence.
but i love nyc....how can i leave? haha. maybe i`ll get my MFA at the newschool...who knows?

call john frietas at the newschool and talk to him about grad and undergrad credit. 212 229 8903. i dont know how possible it is since the course is part of the adult education ba program...but see what he says. i think it will be a difficult case to make given the level of the course.

z.rizvi.

ana

is there anywhere in nyc i can learn to read and write in urdu? and not speak tooti pugdu urdu

ana,

Am planning on taking Rehan Ansari`s Indian cinema class at the New School. Its an undergrad course and I need to find out what options I have in getting grad credit for taking it (if any). Is it possible to contact Mr. Ansari and inquire about my questions? How so?

Zehra,

You`re a damned good writer! :) May not agree with everything you write, but I respect your opinion and the way you express it. Really hope to read more from you. Its been really hard for me to process a lot of stuff in the past year, let alone write about it. I`ve been looking to a few sistas (anne carson, adrienne su, a. roy, joan didion and patricia williams) to help me thru. Its been working...

I`m thinking our parents might know each other. We lived in Central NJ for several years...Did your family go to the Islamic School/masjid in Middlesex County at all?

Temporal

I like your translation much better than mine. Don`t worry about lost connotations and connections. Give the reader some responsibility and credit to do some cultural legwork. There really is no word for gung`roo, is there? From the payzayb to the gung`roo, such a continuum...

Yes, my husband and I attended writing workshops in P`town, Mass. He got in on an Agha Shahid Ali scholarship and I had to pay for my fiction class! While I am devoted to fiction/prose and poetry equally, its been a long time since I`ve actively written it. I like to straddle the lyrical prose/prose poetry fence. Its all good (to take your friend`s *cough * expression). By the end of the class, the prof. insisted I had a prose/ghazal book in me. I don`t know about that...although someone like Jean Toomer did an excellent job in blurring those genres.

But I am so excited at the world out there waiting for me....

P`town was mindblowing. The Fine Arts Work Center has nurtured some great writers; Stanley Kunitz, Yusef Komunayaka (who, btw, is married to an Indian poet; they had a baby recently), Mark Doty to name a few. So people there don`t play. Many students there went to class, spent whole afternoons writing and printing and then attended the evening`s lecture/presentation. Not too bad a way to spend some time...

P`town itself is a progressive community. It is also known as a self identified Gay, Lesbian, Bi and Transgendered mahal. It is a benevolent, tolerant and well mannered reign. Almost every resident was friendly and welcoming. No one was discriminated against for being Black, or Muslim, or straight or Republican, even! No catcalls and whistles from idiot men on the street. We heard Sonia Sanchez (a Black Panther, well respected poet) read poems in the backyard of a p`town resident. We saw some lovely women and men. And no, it wasn`t Sodom and Gommorah. (sorry to disapoint both fundos and dionysians!) I met some very talented writers, most gratifyingly, an Indian poet originally from Mathra, the home of my grandfather`s family. Something for straight and not narrow people to think about.

Email`s a little fried. Can you email anNy and get my new email? Scout, please contact me.

dear t,

believe or not, i have never been at a desh
event....that was a different brand of
desi....we`ve evolved.

saminashah...do a search on f. zehra rizvi.

ana, but too much is left out.
--------
i will start to send stuff..been writing like mad
after a year. shukr hai im writing again :)

ofcourse, will i pass the editors?

z.rizvi.

temporal..

yaar, how many posts have I written to you today..something new always pops up after I end the last post :)

I was just reading your post to Samina, and the Faiz poem, and thinking about the Faraz poem that he wrote about Independence day in `54 (I was actually thinking of posting that somewhere here on `jashn-e-azaadi`)

But back to Faiz: […have read a couple of translation but am not happy with any…read the Urdu…relatively simple words…but the images he used are so potent….so powerful that no translation i have seen seems to do full justice]

--I was thinking the exact same thing this past weekend. I was working on a piece of mine in which I included part of Faiz`s `Aik din yoon khazaan aa gaye`e`, and did not feel that the translation did it justice. Have you read Naomi Lazard`s translations of Faiz? The only Faiz collection I have right now (my Urdu literature collection verges on the pathetic, but at least I have something) is `The True Subject` which has selected poems translated by Naomi Lazard. And when I read those translations, it`s like I`m reading a completely different poem..I`m not too happy with it. The potency of the words, even the simplest of them does fail to get across.

love, a.

tidbit..

[Zehra: ``im amazed that HM on one side and the sehen of badshahi masjid only illicited such a small response``...more than u know it...u know writing about tht (badshahi masjid et al) was really exhausting...just those few lines...thus the inability to communicate the irony of the situation properly...]

Maybe you could have said more..on the other hand, I think the irony is more than obvious, and its up to us readers to reflect upon the irony itself and respond. It`s that telling vs. showing thing..and I feel that you showed quite a bit. :)

temporal..

p.s--next time you capitalize the A in ana, I will have to employ stern measures, like typing Temporal (ouch, pata hai :)) kya baat hai logon..it`s ana not Ana. Yes I have an ego..but it certainly is not an inflated one!!! Word to the wise (which you are infinitely much more than I am :)) love. a

temporaloo..

yehi tau baat hai. I`m rather cynical about petitions myself. But can you explain to me how Christians are placed better than Shias or Ahmedis? Your comparison is curious. I`m not being critical here baba, I really want to know. Perhaps in terms of the violence perpetrated? I know that there are quite a few Christians who have done well in their professions, but there are even more who have been passed over for possibly more incompetent people.

And it`s more than sad, it`s disgusting and pathetic that all some authorities can do is either shrug their shoulders, or collude in the violence. There was a magazine that used to (and probably still does?) come out of Karachi, that would list either the number, or the names of people killed in the bloodbaths there in the 90`s. Do any of these authorities have problems sleeping at night? It really is beyond sad..when ANY life is crushed because it is not tolerated. And we sit in our drawing-rooms and our cafes, and at our computers and talk about how sad and mad it is, and just talk...perhaps i am being unfair here? Chalo, petitions ko bhool jate hain..at least I can still speak and write about the violence, the injustice, can`t I?

Love..aap ki inquilaabi a.

Zehra #25 Welcome back. Are you the same Zehra that graced chowk pages until about three months ago, then announced departure on account of no longer being pleased with chowk discussion?

zehra-o-zehra:)

so desh-pardesh is kaput…does that mean visits to T.O. should be curtailed?

Ana:

…am sorry for any loss of innocent live…but forget petitions…christians are placed better than shias or ahmedis in pakistan…the recent spate of violence got deservedly bad press here….and since mushy inc. depends on western handouts am sure they would do more to curb this against christians…pity the ahmedis and the shias whose professionals have been systemitically targeted and killed and the only response from the authorities is with a shrug ‘kya kar sakthay haiN hum ji, kaun in paaglouN kou samjhaye!’…and the case is closed until the next targetted killing...it is so sad...this trampling of values...this abscence of respect...for the living, the dead, for those professing values other than the narrow parochial values of the assassins!...sad...sad...

anNyKiBachchi:

and what happened to the rendezvous?

love,

t

samm #24:

(Caveat: long post may cause headache:))

…the translation stumped me…know a friend who can come up with zany transcreations of her own...but she is either hibernating or mad at m (sometimes) both very understandable propositions…but more on this shortly…

…have you killed off that email addy?…sent you something and am waiting for your response…

…so this was the writer’s bash mr. S. got invited to and you just tagged along;) …heheh…never mind…as long as you were there write your impressions sometime…

…ok…now to the short poem:

GHULAMI

Waq’t ki lehrouN ka toh’faa
ghung’roo ya mangal sut’r
zanjeeraiN haiN donouN
ik azli ghulami ki

And your attempt:

The waves of time, gift of the river
the ankletted girl dancing on other people`s wishes
the wife and her mangal sut`r obeying her husband`s wishes
These signs of permanent slavery

…Ghungroo is such a potent symbol for the sub-continental femmexploitation…even though it is used by other dancers and amateurs like sheema and nahid…but in cultural memory it is associated with nautch girls, the tawaifs, the bazaari aurats…that one cannot find any other object or symbol to so totally symbolise a dancing girl…earlier this evening had some friends over and were discussing this poem…and i invited them to come up with one word or object to portray the dancing girl or even a prostitute or call girl…our bright one was present too and chipped in with ‘red lipstick’…not so fast young man, pinky sports a hooker-red lipstick too said a friend…seriously…both ghungroo and then the mangal-sut’r presented similar problems in translation…though for mangal-sut’r we can perhaps sub a ‘wedding-band’ if we stretch it a bit…nikhah-nama, marriage certificate may denote the same status but they do not evoke the same feelings…so if i have to translate this it falls short of my criteria…it will be something like this…

GHULAMI

Waq’t ki lehrouN ka toh’faa
ghung’roo ya mangal sut’r
zanjeeraiN haiN donouN
ik azli ghulami ki

SLAVERY

Gift from the waves of Time
Ghungroo or Mangal sut’r
Chains (or symbols) are they both
Of an eternal slavery.

…but this suffers from the obvious…it assumes a readership familiar with ghungroo and mangal sut’r or the alternative would be copious footnotes…this is what stumps me here…maybe you or someone else can come up with better version…

…as i was mulling over this i thought of quoting from faiz…the independence day is round the corner…in the immediate aftermath one did not required passports to visit the other country…and faiz left lahore by public and private transportation for dal lake in kashmnir…where his brother in law dr. taasir was vacationing…the journey took 28 hours…later in the evening, on that shikara on dal lake faiz recited this for the first time…

…have read a couple of translation but am not happy with any…read the Urdu…relatively simple words…but the images he used are so potent….so powerful that no translation i have seen seems to do full justice…this is how it begins…

SUB’H-e-AAZADI

(aug ’47)

Yeh daagh daagh ujala, yeh shubb gazeedah seh’r
Who intezar thaa jis ka, yeh wohh seh’r tou nahiN
Yeh wohh seh’r tou nahiN, jis ki aarzoo laykar
Chalay thay yaar kay mil jae’egi kahiN na kahiN
Falak kay dasht maiN taarouN ki aakhri manzil
KahiN tou hoga shubb-e-soost mauj ka saahil
KahiN tou jakay rukay ga safina-e-ghum-e-dil

...and then i thought i would combine the two and the discussion in my mind turned to independence and thought why not submit a piece built around faiz’s perception…but reality checked in...if had written and submitted such a piece am sure would have no stomach for the ensuing vitriol cyber fights that surely follow here…

…so dropped that idea…and instead started going through the faiz kuliyaat…khair…chalo ijazat,

love,

t

ps: do a search on chowk for zehra.

madani# 29 welcome back from arab land. here is joke for you (i have told it once before on chowk):

englishman, frenchman, arabman discussing question ``Is sex work or fun?``. Englishman say, ``It is bloody work, old chap. And the position is damn ridiculous, what!``. Frenchman say, ``Mais non! vive l`amour! Sex ees too much fun, n`est pas?``

Arab thinking and thinking. Then say after deciding, ``Sex is fun. Because if sex is work, I tell my Pakistani staff to do it for me.``

So, next time you go to arab land, tell Arab man that sex is too much work for him and offer to service lady for him. Arab man very happy. He make you ``employee of the year`` for taking important household responsibility for him.

Zehra Rizvi,

Compelling post. Are you the Zehra that a certain young Chowk writer evoked some months ago?

Yes, we all have our forms of prayer. I particularly liked your refusal to dictomize sex and prayer. The subtext of ghazals, music and dance, among other arts and culturally specific actions.

I admit I have a difficult time being carried away by straight religion-my brain and conscience keeps getting in the way. Give me the Sufis and I can find this religions` redemption.

Hope to read more from you.

it`s pretty sad that places such as Heera MAndi are glamourized and made a spectacle by Pakistanis. people will visit them, write about them, eat at some silly wannabe cafe within it`s premises.... but does anyone think about relieving these women of their misery?

This is very great article, very good like it ok. I hope write of this type is needed urgent ok. Any way I have returned to Karachi with sucksess completely and doing good job. I was to arab land it was good money but weather was bad.About this article is sex article etc. I observed sex thing its different. I will write about Janab Muhammad (for who me worked)and his son great Jaluli and sex life. Its real sex in arab land is different ok.But about this article writer hope write many ok. Very busy now also, hoping for new assignment you get addict to money. any way karachi feels better. Happy ness to evwry body. Thank you very much. I feel better, may be due to water i thought ok.

Kabuliwallah: thanks =O)

Ansari: now i know where to look for it...must talk friends into going to rainbow center =p

Ras Siddiqui: good question...answers anyone??

temporal: marginally better yes but only marginally no? not that i don`t agree with u...at least they can live life the way they want too...not many pakistani women can boast of that can they now?...and the poem...its just lovely...take care =o)

hamidm: actually the day-laborers and cost accountants that u mentioned seemed pretty happy to me...the girls...well that`s a different story all together...not that they were crying their eyes out or anything...but u know sometimes happiness can be a little utopian...and utopia to me has always been unreal...untrue...i cant say whether those girls were truly happy or not...like i said i didnt go talk to them...i just wrote what i sensed and observed....and yes its still full of lights and music and the choori walas and the gajra walas and the paan walas...but i was in there for barely a second...and i guess what made a strong impact was the freshlime at Cocoo`s Cafe....that`s wat struck a chord not the music...and that`s exactly what i wrote about...

Zehra: ``im amazed that HM on one side and the sehen of badshahi masjid only illicited such a small response``...more than u know it...u know writing about tht (badshahi masjid et al) was really exhausting...just those few lines...thus the inability to communicate the irony of the situation properly...

``who says those in HM dont pray?`` i didn`t say that =o)

``what struck me there was all the alums (shias abound) on the rooftops`` i didn`t see them...incredibly spaced out at the time...

``i choose sex and my mother namaz....we both feel fulfilled`` we all feel the way we want to feel =o)

``zia really fooked with the people didnt he?`` there is hope for us yet

Waisay I didn`t eat anything there...had stuffed myself earlier with the murgh cholas, charghas and `thaaz` (that drink is a genre by itself!!) food street parr...OHMIGOD is all that comes to mind right now!! :p

rgds

AS IT THIS THREAD NEEDS SOME CLEANING AFTER NAPAK POST OF ZEHRA & OTHERS

WITH SO MUCH ANTI ISLAM PROPOGANDA FROM SCULLERS TO BILLY GRAHAM TO ORAL ROBERTS ,IT DIDNT STOP MILLIONS OF AFRO aMERICAN TO FORM NATION OF ISLAM .THESE CARPET BAGGERS WOULD EVERYTHING TO STOP ALLAHS TRUE MESSAGE FROM REACHING THE PUBLIC DREADEFULL (AS DRACULA) OF SUNLIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dnesdahttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2178067.stm, 7 August, 2002, 11:36 GMT 12:36 UK

US university sued over Koran class



Religion and education in the US are an awkward mix

A US university that included a book on the Koran in a class for new students is being sued by a Christian organisation and a group of students. They claim the university is unfairly promoting one religion at the expense of others.

This is part of a long history of anti-Islamic bias that is akin to anti-Semitism or even racism

University professor Carl W Ernst



The incident has led to renewed controversy over American attitudes towards Islam following the 11 September attacks.

The case began when the University of North Carolina chose professor Michael Sells`s book, ``Approaching the Qur`an`` for one of its courses.

The university felt that interest in Islam had increased among the student population.

``We are obviously not promoting one religion,`` the university`s Chancellor James Moeser told the Washington Post newspaper.

``What more timely subject could there be?``

`Violated rights`

Students were required to read the book - a translation into English of passages from Islam`s holy book - as part of a first-year course.

US students have become more interested in studying Islam

But legal action group the American Family Association Centre for Law &Policy, part of conservative Christian group the American Family Association, filed a lawsuit on behalf of three students and two former students in late July.

It claimed that the university`s requirement to read the book violated their First Amendment rights.

It added that the book does not present a full picture of Islam as it does not contain passages cited by Islamic militants as justification for acts of terror.

samina samina samina...

kahan yaar tum sirf aik jhalak lay kar ayee...(i
hope alteast you had the tava chicken at
coocoos).

this last para....you gotta do more with it..i was
witing to see if you went to the roof and im
amazed that HM on one side and the sehen of
badshahi masjid only illicited such a small
response.

who says those in HM dont pray? what struck
me there was all the alums (shias abound) on
the rooftops.
then ofcourse prostitution is not an unclean
najis habit.
sex and namaz go hand in hand...its worship
and abandonment to forces beyond us...
i choose sex and my mother namaz....we both
feel fulfilled.

its silly paki faux-modernity that looks down on
religion and ignores therefore all things
spiritual.

(zia really fooked with the people didnt he?)

z.rizvi.

Temporal,

Am I near the poem?:

The waves of time, gift of the river

the ankletted girl dancing on other people`s wishes

the wife and her mangal sut`r obeying her husband`s wishes

These signs of permanent slavery

Tell me if I`m close, or provide your translation-hope I didn`t mess it up too much!

... nonsense! ....... actuaries, cost accountants, and day-laborers are pathetic creatures with ``sadness on their faces`` who are to be pitied ....... tawaifs, nautch-girls and prostitutes are honorable professionals engaged in a lucrative business providing an essential service to society ...... the only people who are being exploited and cheated are the tamash-beens, customers, clients and the tax-man ......

........ i haven`t been to heera mandi in twentyfive years, but it definitely was not the bleak place described by this one time ``visitor`` ........ it used to be fun place, full of light and music and some beautiful women who commuted from gulberg and shadman to make an honest living ..... and where else can you get phaja`s paye .........

Samina:

In the totem pole of pakistan sometimes it is very difficult to discern who is at the low end. Could they be the Ahmedis, the Shias, the Christians, the bride that does not bear a son or bring enough dowry. In the fog of hatred and intolerance everyone is contributing big time.

But at the very bottom end we find women. They suffer the most. Compared to the fate of that mai at the hands of the panchayat, or of the eight ‘young’ women traded for sparing the lives of murders, or the asmas executed by the order of their parents, one can cynically say the fate of these tawaifs and nautch girls perhaps is marginally better.

May I share a short poem?


GHULAMI

Waq’t ki lehrouN ka toh’faa
ghung’roo ya mangal sut’r
zanjeeraiN haiN donouN
ik azli ghulami ki


Keep writing,

lve,

t

The thing that always puzzled me about this place
is its location. I wonder why the Maulanas have tolerated this for centuries of .....
......(oh never mind)......

Ras

Tidbit,

salaam bombay is available on vcd (as well as video, i think) at rainbow centre.

For those of you in NYC and its environs:

Rehan Ansari..haan apne chowk ka Rehan, is teaching a class on Indian cinema, To find out more about it, visit the link indicated below

http://www.nsu.newschool.edu/fall02/comm5.htm#NFLM3441

And sign up, if it strikes your fancy :)

Thanks!

Another classic by Ayaz Amir, somewhat in line with what ylh has printed: (http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm)

``Creative anarchy Pakistani style

By Ayaz Amir

When we shed tears over our history - and let`s not forget we remain among the world`s most accomplished mourners - many of us forget how far we have come in many things. The openness of the press and even the gradual opening up of that ancient concubine, state television, is taken for granted nowadays. This too in a military government. But only a few years ago this would have been unthinkable.

True, General Musharraf stretches a point when he says he is a military man who rules democratically. Even so, it is hard not to admit that compared to what we`ve had in the past this has been a tolerant dispensation.

Perhaps the tolerance owes less to conscious design than to domestic exigency and international pressure. Perhaps this is globalization at work, a world where the dissemination of information is harder to control. So what? In everyday life facts are more important than their underlying causes.

Forget the press, the political parties too over the last three years have been free to do as they please except hold rallies in the open. If they have sat on their butts and not organized themselves properly who is to blame?.....

Another classic by Ayaz Amir, somewhat in line with what ylh has printed: (http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm)

``Creative anarchy Pakistani style

By Ayaz Amir

When we shed tears over our history - and let`s not forget we remain among the world`s most accomplished mourners - many of us forget how far we have come in many things. The openness of the press and even the gradual opening up of that ancient concubine, state television, is taken for granted nowadays. This too in a military government. But only a few years ago this would have been unthinkable.

True, General Musharraf stretches a point when he says he is a military man who rules democratically. Even so, it is hard not to admit that compared to what we`ve had in the past this has been a tolerant dispensation.

Perhaps the tolerance owes less to conscious design than to domestic exigency and international pressure. Perhaps this is globalization at work, a world where the dissemination of information is harder to control. So what? In everyday life facts are more important than their underlying causes.

Forget the press, the political parties too over the last three years have been free to do as they please except hold rallies in the open. If they have sat on their butts and not organized themselves properly who is to blame?.....

I am eagerly waiting for Scout & RSexsana or rather Spout & Raveena dialogue.

Ylh

,

``whether I was married, whether I was Muslim,``

That is interesting, why should a pakistani ask whether you are a muslim, in country where 99.99 percent are muslims, why should any reasonable person ask that question. Well ylh, you have become so much of a non muslim. By the way that is good, jinnah loved pork didnt he.

Come up with something more authentic.

Hello all...thanks for the comments...as per the chowk tradition I`ll try to reply as best as I can =o)

Ana: The delusions of grandeur were a direct result of my watching too many old indian movies where the tawaif just indulges in some harmless thumkas and the works while managing to maintain her virtue. And then of course she walks off with the prize of the movie, the hunk that fights his way through the hordes of villains just to get the girl...and so my notions about HM were all that and more...somehow it would be...how do i say this...grand??...I guess that`s what you get for being all sanctimonious...i will of course try to illuminate chowk as best i can =o)...and by the way...I loved your city....Lahore grows on you in a seriously incredible way...

Sarwari: bohat bohat shukria =o)

SaraJ: Ive been wanting to read `Taboo` for a while now but the hard back edition was too expensive...long live OUP and paperbacks :p...also u have a bit of explaining to do...what`s with the disappearing act, pray tell?? need i remind you of the wonders of modern technology?...so here`s a great big thank you to u *grin *

Samina Shah: Wow! that was a really insightful analysis...kind of flattering really =p mainly because Ive never had anyone do that for me...waisay I had a good mind to go and talk to those women that night but there were quite a few guys with me and walking into one of the brothels would have been a serious threat to their izzat...or so ive been told...perhaps someday when im not too susceptible to tears ill go back and find out more about them...

Aicha: I suppose I could have done that but I didnt. For one thing I dont think you get `Salaam Bombay` in Karachi though I can`t say that I`ve actually tried to look for it...you are right about the sadness of course....it kind of benumbs you after a while...extremely heart breaking =o(

fawad79: i couldn`t have said it better myself

razalatif: i read that review and have been trying to get my hands on the book eversince...but pretty broke at the moment :-(

freesoul: as much as i admire manto`s work i don`t always agree with him...prostitution is just plain ol wrong be it pakistan, thailand or even Amreeka....i don`t see how exploitation can be a legalized trade...do u? `spiritual love should precede sex`...it`s not that screwed up an equation is it?? would it help if i told u that i couldn`t sleep that night, or the night after that or after that for a whole week? that the irony of it all still hits me full force every now and then? that the empty and meaningless sex i saw that night still sends a chill down my spine?...you know a friend of mine told me once that some of the women are there by choice...then please explain to me the sadness on their faces...if they make so much money then what reason do they have to look so miserable?

Hello all...thanks for the comments...as per the chowk tradition I`ll try to reply as best as I can =o)

Ana: The delusions of grandeur were a direct result of my watching too many old indian movies where the tawaif just indulges in some harmless thumkas and the works while managing to maintain her virtue. And then of course she walks off with the prize of the movie, the hunk that fights his way through the hordes of villains just to get the girl...and so my notions about HM were all that and more...somehow it would be...how do i say this...grand??...I guess that`s what you get for being all sanctimonious...i will of course try to illuminate chowk as best i can =o)...and by the way...I loved your city....Lahore grows on you in a seriously incredible way...

Sarwari: bohat bohat shukria =o)

SaraJ: Ive been wanting to read `Taboo` for a while now but the hard back edition was too expensive...long live OUP and paperbacks :p...also u have a bit of explaining to do...what`s with the disappearing act, pray tell?? need i remind you of the wonders of modern technology?...so here`s a great big thank you to u *grin *

Samina Shah: Wow! that was a really insightful analysis...kind of flattering really =p mainly because Ive never had anyone do that for me...waisay I had a good mind to go and talk to those women that night but there were quite a few guys with me and walking into one of the brothels would have been a serious threat to their izzat...or so ive been told...perhaps someday when im not too susceptible to tears ill go back and find out more about them...

Aicha: I suppose I could have done that but I didnt. For one thing I dont think you get `Salaam Bombay` in Karachi though I can`t say that I`ve actually tried to look for it...you are right about the sadness of course....it kind of benumbs you after a while...extremely heart breaking =o(

fawad79: i couldn`t have said it better myself

razalatif: i read that review and have been trying to get my hands on the book eversince...but pretty broke at the moment :-(

freesoul: as much as i admire manto`s work i don`t always agree with him...prostitution is just plain ol wrong be it pakistan, thailand or even Amreeka....i don`t see how exploitation can be a legalized trade...do u? `spiritual love should precede sex`...it`s not that screwed up an equation is it?? would it help if i told u that i couldn`t sleep that night, or the night after that or after that for a whole week? that the irony of it all still hits me full force every now and then? that the empty and meaningless sex i saw that night still sends a chill down my spine?...you know a friend of mine told me once that some of the women are there by choice...then please explain to me the sadness on their faces...if they make so much money then what reason do they have to look so miserable?

reminded me of Mumtaz from Moth Smoke...well written piece

regards

Kabuli

Raza Latif,

I`ll be looking through the archives for your review. Thanks!

Ylh,

re:#9

That was some lovely writing. Keep it up.

Through the looking glass

It was not a routine undertaking, to say the least. Why it should have been so complicated was not a matter of practicalities but of illusions insinuated and fostered in the minds of the credulous - why should it be such an obstacle to study in this particular country rather than any other comparably distant and underdeveloped? To the people in control, and to those who place their confidence in them, the answer was obvious - Pakistan is an extremely dangerous place, seething with bearded sadistic maniacs whose motivating principle is to kill and mutilate Westerners, especially Americans.

Even before September 11 anybody in the US who had any idea of where or what Pakistan was, would tell you it was a dangerous place. If it was ever mentioned in the newspaper or on the evening news it was because of something frightful associated with it. The very mention of something so foreign to their experience as a military government fills the heart of the typical American with righteous indignation.

Apart from that, Pakistan would occasionally be mentioned in connection with someone involved in a terrorist event. Persons in respectable positions would either look away and adopt a polite neutrality, or occasionally rant that they`re fanatics who would cut my head off. When there was no news that was fit to print, there might be a photograph of a traditional terrorist, with full details of his travels and affiliations so everyone could be informed about the places that such dangerous characters frequent. I knew enough to know better than to believe such myths, but it still only obscured more profoundly what lay on the other side.

I came to Pakistan for the first time with all my paperwork in order but no idea of where to go or how to look after myself once I got here. I trusted in fate and fate rose to the occasion. There was a friendly passenger on the flight, who had helped me find my way at the airport. When the plane touched down he suggested that I come to his family and have some tea and then we would try to find the hotel whose name I had been given but none of the flight crew had ever heard of. Many of you will know how this part of the story turned out. Once at the friendly stranger`s house I never saw that, or any other hotel, and was allowed to leave only for extraordinary sightseeing expeditions and once or twice to straighten out the red tape of traveling. I was instructed in the complexities of cricket, received some truly excellent coaching in essential Urdu, was escorted to the major sights, made acquainted with the work of some of the best classical singers, fed extraordinary food, and generally pampered in the extreme.

The next morning brought my first experience with one of the timeless components of life in Pakistan and was to be repeated every morning afterwards. I had heard the azaan once before, in a crowded commercial area in a lower income section of Philadelphia; waking up for the first time in Pakistan, in the home of my new friends, the sound of the azaan synchronized history and memory, eternity and the moment. I had come during the month of the Haj. It seemed an auspicious coincidence, that this should be the time that I was coming to Pakistan. As my stay progressed, the immediacy here, of what had been for me, up until then, the legend of Abraham, was to impress me more and more and culminated in the observance of Eid al Azha. Gradually, putting together one incident after another, I came to understand that the people I was among really were experiencing the practice of the religion of Abraham.

Since my work was to be done in Lahore, the time came too quickly when I had to leave my hosts in Islamabad. I was brought to the station, my ticket bought and reservation arranged, and I was seated in a compartment with three delightful ladies, one of whom had studied English in school years ago before she was married and was able to help the others ask me about why I had come, whether I was married, whether I was Muslim, how many children I had and what were they doing, and in so many ways fussed about me and showed their concern for me, while the magical beauty of the Punjab rushed by, ancient in itself but for me for the first time (and still) absolutely spellbinding.

The plain dotted with trees, the villages` backsides, facing the train tracks and the clusters of animals and their keepers, and especially the little white, green domed structures, all seemed like some primordial principle come to life. Since then the experience has been the same. Ladies and men both can be counted on to be kind and concerned about everyone in their immediate vicinity. Within a few days of my arrival, before even setting foot in Lahore, I had come to the conclusion that, quite the opposite of the den of assassins that it had been made out to be, Pakistan is probably the safest place I`ve ever been. Wherever I went and even still wherever I go, if ever I`m stuck I have only to look to my right or my left and whoever is standing by immediately comes to my rescue.

The elderly lady seated opposite me on the train had a problem that I was soon to see was a sorrow common to many women of Pakistan. Pakistan being a developing nation, its women shoulder a tremendous burden in the sufferings which are ubiquitous here but seem almost incomprehensible to women who have lived all their lives in the West. The tears slowly rolled down her cheeks as she told me she too had a son, that he had been her greatest joy, that he was a good son and very successful. He had gone to America years ago and she had not seen him since; he telephones sometimes and she can`t even talk to her grandchildren because they don`t speak Urdu at all, only English. This was to be only the first of many such stories.

By far the most reliable mode of transportation turned out to be the wagon system. In defiance of appearances, if one can find out the name of the wagon stop or a major landmark one is sure to be delivered to one`s destination safe and sound. The conductors became my collective guardians, taking me in, figuring out where I was going (searching out someone who could speak English when necessary) making space for me in the van, and often escorting me to a connecting van and explaining my case in full detail to its conductor, thus assuring my safe arrival. They are a class of people to be noted for their patience, (agility) and concern.

In the course of my explorations I realized that gorgeous jewels of culture were kept hidden behind the face of dun-colored walls that the city presents. I had read about how the architecture of the Muslim community of South Asia was a manifestation of the social organization, but it took some time to feel its significance, traveling the dusty streets and experiencing the transition on entering a home, or even an office. I was guided through history at Punjab University`s historic Old Campus and introduced to scholars whose intellectual spirit is among the brightest in the world.

My stay, however, was not without its distresses. One day I found myself wandering in the hot sun, beside the canal bank. I had missed the little dirt road that I should have turned on and now I had gone several miles in the wrong direction. I turned back and found my way to the main road. By this time I was feeling the effects of the sun and the long walk. I tried going in the opposite direction, which brought me to the gate of one of the religious school complexes that were so notorious in the U.S. for their hatred of all things American. I stopped and wondered, it seemed remarkably peaceful and orderly inside, and there were a few people, maybe one of them could tell me how to reach the address I was looking for. I ventured in. Within minutes I found myself in a comfortable sitting room facing an offering of tea and delicacies. I enjoyed a delightful time with the lady of the house, the wife of a teacher at the madrassah and was invited to her daughter`s wedding. The Begum inquired about universities in the U.S. where her brother might pursue his interest in English and when I felt up to it her brother personally escorted me to the obscure office I had been searching for.

When I returned home after this first exploratory venture I carried with me the sense that Pakistan is a land balanced somewhere between creation and eternity, and first and foremost a land where everyone is concerned for the well-being of those around them, whether family, friend, or stranger, whether Muslim or not, whether Pakistani or guest.

After my return I remembered Pakistan above all else as a land of safety. Certainly violence takes place here, is there a place on earth where it does not? But the well-being of their neighbor, and the maintenance of a viable tranquility, are foremost in everyone`s thought. As I crossed back to the other side, at the gate at Logan airport, I was pulled out of the line of arrivals from London and taken aside and questioned: what had been my business in Pakistan, and what had happened to me there, had I been threatened or terrorized? I replied that I been studying the local language and I had been treated very well. How could my interrogator reconcile this with what she knew? I clearly had little interest in anything other than my studies and my tape recordings, and getting home to my family. ``They must have been trying to protect you,`` she told me. Her words were true in a sense that she herself could not understand.

Hi

Middle class mentality of mixing self-created morals and utility !!!

Lets see, what the premise of this disgust is:

1. A woman should be owned by one man

2. `Spiritual Love` should precede sex.

3. All prostitutes r unhappy.

Not considering any religon (as all religions favor women`s ownership), statistics, logic and history prove all of this premises WRONG.

Prostitution (of men and women, both) is an important utility/service based industry, and its importance should be recognised. If deplorable conditions exist in Red lights area (I have seen that place, and I agree), then something good should be done about it, like:

1. Legalisation of prostitution (so that police do not harass customers and prostitutesm like they r doing somethign wrong, and to make sure that forced prostitution is not going on)

2. Easy access to prostitutes (preferably thru some 800 number or wenb site, so that this mental block could be removed from first time customers)

3. Easy and inexpensive Health insurance of prostitues (to avoid sex diseases)

it is high time that we leave the mentality of Parem Chand and think like Manto.

For all who are interested, I have written a review on the book ``Taboo`` by Fouzia Saeed. This book details an extensive research in to Heera Mandi and its people. The review is at:

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?rlatif_feb1702

Raza

i visited heera mundi it was dirty filthy and disgusting , i saw look of the faces of the women they were so full of anguish and i went home disgusted

Honestly all you had to do was pick up a copy of `Salaam Bombay` to realise that there is nothing but sadness in such places.

Samina Wahid,

This is really interesting and self introspective. I particularly thought your self interrogation -the excitement of witnessing and thinking about what actions, systems your dominant society deems outside of their ``norms`` of morality/respectability; the acknowledgement that your motives in visiting a sex work site was a wish to be intellectually independent and daring, and ``hip`` :), and that the lives of the sex workers you visited were human. To your credit, your representation of the women and the site itself was multi dimensional. The stars like sugar crystals, the Ganesh reference, the erotic glamor, the children, and the mortality of the bodies of these women, not at all least their self dignity and self respect are the marks of a good non judgemental writer.

Perhaps you will go back and interview and research the lives of these women. I would be quite interested to read what develops, as I am sure, others would.

Hope to read more soon!

Samina-

This topic has fascinated me for so long and then just last week my friend returned from Karachi with a book called ``Taboo`` for me...I`m enthralled with the book...the author (her name escapes me right now) has done such an astounding job depicting the oldest profession in the world. She neither glamorizes nor patronizes the topic but you can`t help but be drawn into the intricate life of the Red Light District.

Great topic to write on. I loved the read. :)

sara

You write well.

-Aisha

Samina..

Speaking as one of `them Lahorites`, I had always been curious about Heera Mandi myself. There was a hospital not too far from HM called Lady Willingdon..don`t know if that exists anymore. My mother was a nurse there once upon a time. When she delves into her memories, she talks about the women of Heera Mandi frequenting the hospital.

[the delusions of grandeur that I had about Heera Mandi are no more.]

--what delusions, pray tell?!

Liked the luminescence of the stars, the `sugar crystals` and am looking forward to more luminous writing from you!