India’s Potential Lose-Lose-Lose Scenario

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Aug-14-02 18:44:9 EST Reply #: 105

Umer Murtaza

Actually, since we`re on the topic of Noble Prizes, why the hell hasn`t Edhi been awarded one yet? The fella`s been working his backside off for 50 + years to establish a welfare system and one, I must admit, is a damn good one.

I`ve had the pleasure of sitting down with him twice…well…one and a half anyway - and I must say, he`s an absolute inspiration]

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Because NOBEL prizes are not NOBLE.

Amit #78

Although your proposal look good on paper, but there are flaws in logic.

First Indian Muslims are Indian and not Pakistani. If you agree then it is the responsibility of Indian constitution which is supposed be both secular and democratic to take care of problem.

Because your proposal is such that if something happens for example in Kashmir or Pakistan, then it is the responsibility of Indian Muslims. Do you understand this logic.

That means Indian Muslims are responsibility of Pakistan or Kashmir.

Pretty convulated logic.

On another breath, some of your compatriot are saying Pakistan was a folly.

Who should I believe. You or your compatriots.

RSaxena#

The only common thing in those names is their

IQ divided by 100 = RSaxena IQ.

I told you you will always talk s-hit.

We are talking about Nobel Prize.

Romair #100,

you should write posts like that more often.

Romair,

Aw quit your urdu shairis...us baba blacksheeps dont have a clue about what youre trying to say. C`mon, stop acting like a turtle & debate with us. If you start throwing stones at India in this article, you`ll get stones thrown back at you. Wassa matter, soldier boy, you can only fight on a battlefield, hahn?!

OK, if we are too raunchy & ill-mannered for upper crusty intellectuals like you...just read the NY Times op/ed today. Read the article ``Where Freedom Reigns``. Some American ``expert`` there will throw cold water on your optimism. Even you will admit that NY Times (I hope) is a much more prestigious & internationally acclaimed paper than anything India or Pakistan publishes.

If you get published in NYT, you outa be an expert in SOMETHING?! right?! Much more credible than that burkhi/burkha/whatever mentor you quote so much. Ofcourse you wont like this American`s spin doctoring & dissmiss him as one of the evil Jewish conspirators that wants to badmouth Pakistan & praise India. Well, even if you argue Mr Burkhi/whatever is more ``qualified``, a heck of a lot more influential people in this world read the NYT than DAWN!!

Romair #100

Given the Paki ruling classes` addiction to `unconventional` warfare, Pakistan`s neighbours, Allies and multilateral funders would be thankful for even so much:

`Ki mere qatl ke baad, usne jafaa se tauba,
Hai us zood-pasheyma`an ka pasheyma`an hona`

Actually, since we`re on the topic of Noble Prizes, why the hell hasn`t Edhi been awarded one yet? The fella`s been working his backside off for 50 + years to establish a welfare system and one, I must admit, is a damn good one.

I`ve had the pleasure of sitting down with him twice…well…one and a half anyway - and I must say, he`s an absolute inspiration!!!

Umer M.

Romair/Umair Raja aka whatever;

If you want to get into poetic mode don`t write ``analytical`` pieces like these. Are we take it that Pakistani Intelligence is as much an oxymoron as Pakistani Democracy?

Again a brilliant article from TVR Shenoy - he lays it down as it really is in Pakistan. Hard to accept but it`s true. Delusions didn`t get Jinnah anywhere. And Musharraf?..

T V R SHENOY

Thursday , August 15, 2002



India, US and Pakistan-ism



I wish Pakistan’s unelected autocrat would make up his mind whether he wishes to be one of the United States’ hounds or to run with the Osamas of the world as they scurry into the nearest rabbits’ hole.

Some might argue General Musharraf has a third option: to stand as Homo Sapiens should. Alas, fifty-five years of a bankrupt ideology have ensured that Pakistan’s self-nominated president may only choose before which set of masters his nation must crawl. One must, however, admire the skill with which Musharraf seeks to postpone the evil day when he confesses to his people that the US operates almost as freely in Pakistan as do Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and the rest of that unholy crew.

There is, I suppose, a fourth option. In the film Wag The Dog, an American chief executive went to war to divert the media from his personal peccadilloes. In the same spirit, Musharraf tried to stage a Kargil Part-II a few weeks ago, sending his young men to steal back onto those icy heights. (The sole difference from 1999 was that these boys were allowed to keep their uniforms rather than persist in the fiction of being independent ‘‘freedom fighters’’).

India struck back using air force planes. (One of the lessons of Kargil-I was the requirement of inter-service cooperation.) The general whined, but Washington was, shall we say, less than helpful. So, Musharraf drew back, deprived of the chance to unite Pakistanis behind him by staging a war scare.

Frankly, I am more worried by the aborted Kargil-II than I was by the 1999 incursion. What happened three years ago was the product of a cold-blooded tactician’s mind; in 2002, one is left wondering what the Pakistani dictator hoped to achieve. Did he expect New Delhi to be milder than in 1999? India and Pakistan came to the brink of all-out war thanks to that attack on Parliament; what did the general imagine would happen if his armed soldiers openly invaded Indian territory?



It says something of Pakistan’s image that everybody believes Musharraf’s replacement would be an Islamic fundamentalist to the bone





Experts debate the extent to which Musharraf is in charge of Pakistan, given that terrorists were given their head for decades. Given the incredibly shallow thinking that seems to have gone into Kargil-II, one questions the extent to which Musharraf is in charge of himself! Lashing out blindly is scarcely the mark of the great tactician he is supposed to be.

It puts a question mark on the favourite American excuse for standing by Musharraf: namely that he is better than the alternative. Is an irrational man to be cossetted for fear of the fundamentalist to follow? It says something of Pakistan’s image that everybody believes Musharraf’s replacement shall be an Islamic fundamentalist to the bone. Yet that is a problem which shall have to be met sooner or later by all concerned, whether India or the US. For fifty-five years, Pakistanis have been fed on the poison of anti-India, anti-democratic rhetoric. Musharraf’s generation was probably the last to be given a reasonably secular schooling (and I am none too sure of that). The next generation of Pakistani Army officers, the dictators of tomorrow, are bound to be worse. One might try to ignore the dilemma today, but it will still be around tomorrow.

I recall an interview with William Shirer where he said he wasn’t scared of Hitler as much as of the ‘Hitler Youth’, that generation kept on a diet of intolerance from birth. When I look at Pakistan and I see the older men fading, I know exactly how he felt. But this is a dilemma as much for the US as it is for us.

Shortly after the September 11 attacks, President Bush vowed that the US would not rest until it had won the war on terrorism. He did not, however, define the aims that would enable him to declare victory. Is the war on terrorism confined to hunting down Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden? It would be instructive here to look at the think-tanks in the US. Several schools take the long-term, strategic view that the fight is against the philosophy of Pakistan itself, not just individuals like bin Laden. What is this Pakistan-ism? Essentially, the belief that Muslims cannot live on equal terms in a society with believers in other faiths, the real reason for Partition.

And how does one deal with this? Drawing on the lessons of the past, they point to Germany and Japan, militaristic societies that could not be defanged until defeated. (Democracy and toleration were forced down German and Japanese throats in a manner that was neither democratic nor tolerant). Many influential Americans believe it will take more of the same medicine to cure the Pakistani disease.

I heard a curious story about how far the malady has spread. When an Indian spoke of the 15 per cent minority in India, a Pakistani bureaucrat responded that his country had a 17 per cent minority. It turned out he was referring to Shia Muslims!

What should India’s reaction be to the growing American presence in Pakistan? Some in the foreign office have responded with a knee-jerk reaction: any foreign presence is bad. This is silly. It is stupid, first, because there is no way India can prevent it, and empty talk makes us look impotent. And it is stupid, secondly, because the only way Pakistan shall change is under American pressure.

On the fifty-fifth anniversary of independence, India must realise that it has enough strength to throw away the crutches of the past. We should never become an American poodle, but unthinking opposition is as absurd as blind support.

URL: http://www.indian-express.com/columnists/full_column.php?content_id=7663

© 2002: Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd. All rights reserved throughout the world.

Some brief answers to questions and replies:

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rsexana #3 ``this is predictable drivel``

arjun_m #11 ``chowk has now come down to posting delusions and wet dreams.``

pmishra2 #16: ``Your sectarian interest and open lying would be funny if its consequences were not so sad for indians in J&K. Your remarks betray the usual mixture of nonsensical fantasy and untruth that characterizes folks like yourself.``

rsexana #59: ``most of his drivel on chowk, including this article, is focused on india``

sadna #80: ``Typical doubletalk.``

pennathur #90: ``Umair Raja is one of those ``new Pakistanis`` who want ``saanp bhi maare aur laathi bhi na toote``.``

* * *Har aik baat pay kahtay ho tum kay, ``tu kiya hay``.......Tumheen kaho kay yah undaaz-e-guftagu kiya hay * * * * * *



``shankar #7: ``However, true to your style, you have presented an optimistic spin on current events in Kashmir``

dost-mittar #32: ``I am amazed at your ability to see a win-win-win scenarios for Pakistan in every situation``

shankar #43: ``Romair is one of the most diehard optimists I`ve ever come across.``

SameerJB #50: ``The point is that optimism without the consideration of probability or likelihood of happening is a futile exercise``

* * * * * * *Humko maaloom hai jannat ki haqeeqat lekin........dil ko khush rakhne ko `Ghalib` ye khayaal achcha hai * * * * * *



dost-mittar #32: ``There is nothing in this article that you haven`t said before.``

* * * * *Ishq nay Ghalib nakamma kar diya......Warna hum bhi aadami thay kaam kay * * * *



Amit #78: ``The biggest losers in this continuous Indo-Pak conflict are Indian muslims, both in Kashmir and the rest of India.``

* * *Kis say mehroom-i-qismat ki shikayat keejiyay.......Hum nay chaha tha kay mar jaiyan, so woh bhi na huwa * * * * *



temporal #41: ``First congratulations for your first ‘solo’ on chowk.``

saminasha #44: ``Did Romair write this?:

scout #47: ``u have some very good points here``

* * *Aatay hain ghaeib say yeh mazamein khiyal mein.....Ghalib sareer-i-khama naway-i-sarosh hay * * *



shankar #43: ``Everytime I read a Romair post, I mumble to myself ``wow, thank God not everyone in this world has that kind of outlook on life--or I`ll be out of a job!``

fawad79 #87: ``..........romair i suspect that kashmiri ancestry has a role in ur passion for kashmir``

* * * *Kahtay huway saqi ko haya aati hay warna......Hay yoon kay mujhe dard-tahay-jam bahut hay * * * *



Ras Siddiqui #43: ``Wishful thinking can be the undoing of a nation``

* * * *Na tha kuchch to Khuda tha, kuchch na hota to Khuda hota..... Duboya mujhko hone ne, na hota maiN to kya hota? * * * * *



scout #45: ``shankar bhai #43....i think u`re in love with Romair, but both of you are married....so what happens now?``

Shankar #56: ``Pakistan has no shortage of pessimissts...BUT if Pakistan has to make it, she NEEDS people like Romair``

* * * *Haazaron kwaashen aisi ke har khwaish pe dam nikle.....Bahut nikle mere armaan, lekin phir bhi dam nikle * * * *



ylh #8: ``The Brilliant Arundhati Roy is on the Pakistan Tour this independence Day...``

* * * * *unke dekhe se jo aa jaathi hai moonh par raunaq.....wo samajhten hain ke beemaar ka haal achcha hai * * * * *



Shankar #56: ``My friend Romair has the knack of giving you facts & figures that might just sound convincing....``

Shammi #64: ``Entertaining article. Amusing, and even prompted a few rolls of the eyes. Very `logical`, `well argued` and bereft of any spin.``

Umri #73: ``This is indeed one of the well written articles, perhaps the one that makes sense, that has come across my eyes.``

* * * *Hain aur bhi dunya mein sukhanwar bahut achay....Kahtay hein kay Ghalib ka hay andaaz-i-bayan aur



SameerJB #50: ``Yes Romair has written this article but I feel he is not available to respond.``

fawad79: ``ROMAIR I AM PISSED AT YOUI

Gen sahib you dont respond to my posts .........``

Huee muddat ke Ghalib mar gaya par yaad aata hai..... Wo har ek baat pe kehana, ke yoon hota to kya hota?

re: umer

{matey, why did you leave out Mother T? Don`t you consider her Indian enough?}

...well, frankly i just forgot because i was thinking of all the nobel prizes awarded for academic work...she is of course indian and got probably the most deserved nobel peace prize...

pankan, Alephnull, et al:

Why are you guys celebrating a new breakthrough in number theory on a board that is devoted to `India lose-lose-lose` theories? Why do you want to spoil Romair`s day?

Dear Chowkidars,

My post to Rsaxena # 66 did not show up. Well please be sporty when it comes to tolerating jokes on pakistani science & technology. There was nothing offensive in it as compared with a lot of other posts on chowk.

Adios

re: 12-headed-tapeworm-ashok #94, # 95

...doo joooooo a speakaaaa eeeenglish?...

pankaj

so all that beatiful mind stuff is bs?