India’s Potential Lose-Lose-Lose Scenario

MATURING OF A NATION,

Pakistanis on chowk were waiting for the hindu muslim inferno to spread through india, after it being ignited in ahmedbad. The violence did not spread even into other parts of gujarat, let alone to other parts of india, to kerala where muslims are nearly 25 percent.

At last for the allegedly educated pakistanis, fed on a daily dose of history from the pak.org sites, gujarat turned out to be an unequivocal denounciation of what they have been taught from their child hood. All that learning of k for kafir, all that work put into the identifying of the hindus did not help them.

Indian in parts other than ahmedbad had something better to do, and that is maturing of a nation.

Compare that to pakistan, the jihadis througout pakistan are attacking christian instituions, the jihadists nutrured by the mums and dads of pakistan through collections in mosques are wreaking havoc through out the country.

It a win win win for the jihadists, the mums and dads of pakistan to at alst bring in the real rules of islamic republic of pakistan, after the blasphemy, hoodood and honour killing, the true rule of public beheading and chopping of limbs. That is also maturing of a nation.

It should be noted, in the context of this article, that the Kashmiri problem is a domestic issue, in both India and Pakistan, and it is the failure of the domestic politics to address this issue, which externalizes this inability in the guise of Indo-Pak hostilty.

India is not suffering from any ``lose-lose-lose`` situation in this crisis, because the sina qua non of this crisis is not the willingness to wage war, but to see which nation has the economic resources to sustain this sitzkreig - sitting war. The argument that the Indian actions might force Pakistan to ``re-think`` are valid, but Pakistan is in no position to acknowledge this prima facie reality, without admiting to its own past misconduct.

Again, domestic political considerations in India and Pakistan will prevail and this crisis will be prolonged, because it serves as a useful escape for the Indian and Pakistani politicans` inability to address and resolve this issue. The only ``lose-lose-lose`` scenrio is the Pakistani and Indian populations being held hostage to the whim of their government; not being able to progress econmically due to an inefficent allocation of national resources.

Indian and Pakistani problems, historically, have their origins in the domestic politics of those nations and they can be resolved if, and only if, the politican on both side of the fence have the political will to look beyond their policies of insecurity.

The Kashmiri problem and with it, the rest of the Indian-Pakistani problems will be solved, when the population in this region, disgusted at the apathy of their governments, marginalizes them and deals with the issues directly - people deal with each other and not through their respective governments.

Ciao

Wishful thinking can be the undoing of a nation.

Ras

scouty,

{{i think u`re in love with Romair, but both of you are married....so what happens now?}}

tsk tsk tsk..beti:) There is a difference between spiritual love between two male friends & sexual love. Seeeee!.. thats what happens when gals want to become nuns & only want to love God. Why do you think I want to get my kid sis married ASAP?:)

fawad was a nice guy...you BLEW it!

Besides...Romair is the only Paki I can hug & kick his butt at the same time.

Er..dont try this at home...only a brahmin shrink can do it with finesse:)

Sameer,

{{The point is that optimism without the consideration of probability or likelihood of happening is a futile exercise. Optimism alone does not help people to act and think positively, positive thinking and determination do.}}

Well, thats PRECISELY why I called Romair`s optimism ``Polyannish``.

I think its unfair to think there are no people in Pakistan who think like Romair. Yes, Pakistan has no shortage of pessimissts...BUT if Pakistan has to make it, she NEEDS people like Romair..

In American folklore, Polyanna was this 12yr old girl who had an incredibly bright, cheerful, optimistic view of the world around her. On the plus side, her character bought a smile & good cheer to the people around her...& made them not give up, no matter how bleak things looked.. On the minus side, her optimism was rather naieve & had a childlike (not CHILDISH) innocence.

The moral of the story is ``Every cloud has a silver lining...BUT... if we just concentrate on just the silver lining, we just might lose objectivity about the cloud!``:)

For eg...if Polyanna visited a friend who was paralysed from the neck down, her comments would be something like the following...

``WOW! my friend BLINKED her eyes today!!

isnt that absolutely WONDERFUL?!!..

Tommorrow, she will sit up & talk...

The next day, she will start walking!...

The day after, she will start running!!...

In the following days, she will run a marathon!!!

Dont be surprised if she wins the Olymic gold in marathon, someday!!!...``

THAT, in a nutshell, is what Romair`s outlook on Pakistan`s future is...

Is there a potential that can happen?! Sure there is!! But what is the likelyhood of that happening?! My friend Romair has the knack of giving you facts & figures that might just sound convincing (er..maybe for a second), post articles from ``experts`` that will agree with his point.

Now, wait a minute! there is a POSSIBILITY that Polyanna`s friend will win an Olympic Marathon gold one day...miracles DO happen, you know!. But what is the possibility?! Ahhh..thats the 64000$ question!

Spin doctoring is an ART that my friend has perfected...I think he`s wasting his time in the software field...he has the potential of becoming a BRILLIANT information minister for Mushy!

tavrad,

{{This is an ideological battle which is why no one in the world wants to touch it with a ten foot bargepole. No country except India and Pakistan even has an opinion on the matter!}}

WELL SAID!!

I`ve been asking Pakistanis REPEATEDLY why even their ``brother`` muslim countries & their ``all-weather friend`` China has not made a PUBLIC stance of totally coming out on Pakistan`s side?!!

After all, most Pakistanis are soooo convinced that they hold a HIGHER moral ground on the Kashmir issue than India!...So why would their own friends betray them like this? I`ve YET to get a convincing answer from them.

Pakistan was SHOCKED when NO country...I repeat, NO country, supported them after the stunt they pulled in Kargil. I mean, even China told them to cool it!

Heres an example of the Pakistani ``introspection`` of Kargil & Kashmir:

1)It was a BRILLIANT tactical move because it internationalised the Kashmir issue (Yoohoo! dummies, the Kashmir issue WAS internationalised the day India started the chain of events with Pokharan 11).

2)It was because of Siachen that the Kargil was justified (only Pakistan BUYS that bs logic).

3) Kargil was good because it exposed India`s tactical weakness. Nevermind, that Pakistan was dragged through the mud internationally...it was a VICTORY for Pakistan!:)

4)Mushy is a brilliant military commander, because he was the brainchild behind Kargil. Oh yeah...he`s also a very honest & sincere Pakistan patriot. Nevermind that as a COAS, he goes on BBC TV & says (with a straight, sincere & honest expression), that NO Pakistani regular troops were ever involved in Kargil!!! ...

Romair`s ``excuse`` is that ``he was just doing his job!!...as a COAS, its his duty to defend his actions in the best possible way!``

NICE TRY!, NO cigar...when a guy is caught with his pants down & then LIES..you dont get any sympathy votes...not even from your friends!

But NO!..the Pakistani rationalisation is that the BBC is anti-Pakistan! Its the Bharatiya Broadcasting Corporation!! The Western media is against Pakistan & Islam because of an elaborate hindu-jewish conspiracy!!

Keep it up, Pakistan!!...you are just digging your own grave with your bs..

Want to know some BITTER truths, Pakistan?! Ofcourse you will deny it..afterall I`m just a non-expert!

a) The world (including your friends) does NOT consider Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir as ``more moral``!

b) Even if some countries may be sympathetic to Pakistan`s stance, it seems no country is willing to twist India`s arm for the sake of Pakistani friendship. That makes ALL the diffrence in international relations (correct me if I`m wrong, Feroze)

c)Pakistan should realise Indian mentality...even if India bleeds, it will make sure Pakistan bleeds more because of Kashmir. The fact is, Pakistan HAS bled more...but the GoP is too ``proud`` to admit that bitter truth..it couches such language as ``strategic U-turns``...who the FCUK is Pakistan trying to kid?!

d) If Indian Kashmiris have ANY hope for autonomy or independance...Pakistan should distance themselves from this issue as much as possible. They have RUINED whatever ``moral ascendancy`` the Indian Kashmiris have in their just fight with India. Shedding crocodile tears for them by calling it ``captive Kashmir`` is nothing but ylh``esque`` verbal masturbation!

e)Isnt it strange that Pakistanis HATE India`s ``bullying`` in Kashmir?! But they conveniently forget that the BIGGEST bully is the ``world famous`` Pakistani military! I mean they ``bullyied`` the ENTIRE nation of Pakistan by 3 military coups. Essentially, it is ``do it our way, Pakistan...Gen Mushy knows BEST..or we`ll kick your butts``.

f)In their eagerness to ``stand tall`` towards India`s bullying, the ``world famous`` military is meekly licking America`s & Saudi`s butts...Oh thats not butt-licking! Thats just ``strategy``!..

Pakistan! Its a good thing your nation has started being introspective. But if you want to be introspective, FIRST start addressing some BITTER truths...only THEN will your introspection bear some fruit...

hobbes #42

You continue your delirous ramblings:

[quote]

-In captive Kashmir there is a history to the freedom struggle and a history of armed conflict, a history of rapes and murders, a history of an occupying army. There is also a history of suppression by federal government and also of electoral rigging by the federal government.

[end-quote]

There is no occupying army in Kashmir. There is an terrorist threat and a history of invasion (48, 65, Kargil) which requires armed intervention at the federal level.

There has been popular discontent with the local administration. In the fact-free zone found in your mind, you are probably unaware that the entire administration of J&K is run by local people - from the Chief Minister to the local police to the district-level administrator.

In fact, I think you were the guy who was convinced that ``fundamentalist hindus would be elected in J&K election``! Presumably, Kashmir is a district of Gujarat in your fertile imagination!

The popular discontent in J&K would have been rectified in the usual way, through transparent elections and better governance EXCEPT that a neighboring country chose to invest millions of dollars in creating a jihad.

Further, this murderous neighbor has created training camps for the export of terrorist into the area. Till 9/11 support for camps and mass murder was the official policy of Pakistan. All of this is now well known throughout the world and one reason why Pakistanis are so universally respected and well-loved.

The international and indian press have clearly reported that the folks in the Kashmir valley mostly want to left alone. If they hate the police excesses associated with india, they equally hate the daily diet of murder and mass killings provided by Pakistan. Outside the Kashmir valley you will find most people agitating for a closer association with the rest of the country.

But why bother with facts? They are messy and may lead to the need for thought and reflection (NOT!)

All your three ``lose`` scenarios envisage simple military positions. I don`t blame you for that assumption, since Pakistan`s history speaks mainly about pre and post military episodes. OK so far? I therefore don`t blame you for your rather Pakistani views, tinted by olive green uniforms.

However. I don`t agree with you, either.

Existing and surviving and getting forward as an Indian in India has a lot to do with much more than just military win/lose scenarios.

Please understand the word ``freedom`` before you try to take this ``scenario`` of yours further. Please also try to comprehend factors like the economy, judiciary, emancipation of women, media and most of all, agriculture and industry, before dismissing out of hand something you obviously have not much idea of.

``Army for hire`` does not make for win/lose scenarios. It just goes towards whoever will pay for it. Pakistan is today getting down on its knees in Bangladesh, ever wondered why? Is that part of the India lose/lose/lose scenario, too?

Give us a break, Umair. Let us all recognise the mutual threats facing our end of the world, and not worry too much about armies winning or losing.

Whatever.

Sameer and Tahmed,

Is it possible to contact either of you?

``India`s Potential Lose-Lose-Lose Scenario``

dil ke bahlaney ko Ghalib yeh khayal achchaa hai

...why is romair obsessed with india?...most of his drivel on chowk, including this article, is focused on india...why oh why this inferiority complex?...

Chowk Staff & repliers: It is either feast or famine on Chowk. When it rains, I guess it pours. I am against two articles by the same author being on the front page. But on The King`s Gambit, I am only researching and proof-reading, not writing, so I guess that may not count.

I submitted this article four or so months ago. It all of a sudden has shown up. TKG (Aviator) was submitted even before this one, and that has only now shown up. Chowk works in mysterious ways. What is the selection procedure for publishing articles? What goes on behind the mysterious Iron Curtain? Is there a feudal off-spring, sitting in her/his high-walled Karachi mansion, who decides the fate of us bourgeoisie and proletarian wage-earning scribes?

It`s good to see dirty, vulgar, ill-informed, aggressive, nationalistic and destructive Indo-Pak debates back on this site again. This site was starting to get too sophisticated. I was begining to lose interest. Poetry and literature is highly over-rated, and vulgarity and combativeness highly under-rated (TKG article only has thirty replies in two weeks, this one already has over fifty in two days).

To me, there is nothing sexier than a Pakistani girl, momentarily discarding her veil of decency, hurling patriotically motivated vulgur obsceneties at a Indian guy. There is nothing more hilariously entertaining than seeing naive, middle-aged and elderly Indians becoming bewilderingly tongue-tied, while trying to comprehend how anything optimistic can ever be said about their neighboring countries. And, of course, I would pay money to see the self-righteous secularatics and religionatics of Pakistan, duke it out with each other in a WWF style wrestling match.

If this article has resulted in contributing to any of the above, if it has resulted in replies that have brought the site back to its normal mode of mediocrity, then I must take the credit.

Down with poetry and prose - the handmaidens of fake elitist know-it-alls. I invite all my Pakistani and Indian non-intellectual friends to raise their Rooh-afzas and their Taj Mahal beers (respectively), forget about all modes of decency, and unapprehensively participate in and enjoy the feast of mud-slinging verbal violence in the reply section of this article.

``The pen maybe mightier than the sword. But how rare kings are amongst the writers.``

P.S. I submitted another article, over two years ago, titled, ``The Art of Strategic Withdrawal.`` If you happen to have it, could you email it to me at umair66@hotmail.com. I seem to have deleted it accidently. Or you can print it, since it is even older than this one.

Romair:

Entertaining article. Amusing, and even prompted a few rolls of the eyes. Very `logical`, `well argued` and bereft of any spin. The line that drew the biggest smiles was `While the above-described third scenario may seem like a win for India, it will actually be a loss for India`. Naturally there was no further explanation to this contradictory statement, and none was expected (given your long experience here of engaging interlocutors head and never failing to duck any questions). Good work!

Chowkies,

In this eternal ``loose loose battle`` between all of us, let us take time to congratulate the mathematicians from IITK on their seminal work on prime numbers. The solution of this problem has eluded mathematicians from all over the world since antiquity. You can read their actual paper from a link at Rediff. Its wonderful. For those of you who enjoy the cerebral ticklings of reading a work of beauty, please do read.

Way to go Indian scientists!!!

(Maybe this would inspire another Pakistani to write a Loose..........ad nauseum scenario for India)

Adios

re: maharana

{In this eternal ``loose loose battle`` between all of us, let us take time to congratulate the mathematicians from IITK on their seminal work on prime numbers. The solution of this problem has eluded mathematicians from all over the world since antiquity.}

...don`t be silly...the pak military had already found this algorithm a long time ago...in fact PAF had even solved fermat`s last theorem well before that andrew wiles stole the solution from them in 1995....

Hey ARJUN_M

GUESS WHAT? YOUR I.T. HEROES AFTER ALL WERE ZERO MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

ORDINARY CROOKS JUST LIKE THE SCALPERS OF BOLLYWOOD TICKETS ALL OVER MUMBAI & INDIA ONLY THESE LEARNT FROM IIT

Indians in Fortune`s Greedy Bunch

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

CHIDANAND RAGHATTA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ TUESDAY, AUGUST 13, 2002 12:05:51 PM ]

WASHINGTON: Three Indian-American hi-tech executives have been named in an unsavoury list of 25 corporate pashas who cashed in on the hi-tech bubble of the 1990s and became multi-millionaires even as their companies went into a tailspin and pauperised many investors.

I2 Technologies Sanjiv Sidhu, Sycamore Networks` Desh Deshpande, and Infospace Naveen Jain make what Fortune calls the ``Greedy Bunch`` list of tech tycoons. The list also includes tech luminaries such as AOL Time Warner’s Steve Case, Cisco Systems’ John Chambers, and AT&T’s John Malone.

``They got rich because they were able to take advantage of the bubble to cash in hundreds of millions of dollars` worth of stock -- stock that was usually handed to them via risk-free options -- at vastly inflated prices,`` Fortune wrote in a scathing commentary that accompanied the dubious honours roll. ``When the bubble burst, their shareholders were left holding the bag. But, hey, they had theirs.``