Happy 56th Anniversary, Pakistan and India

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MT: Tribal affiliation does play a role in the elections but not necessarily of equal importance in different constituencies. There is, for example, significant PPP (Benazir Bhutto`s party), Jamaat-e-Islami and Sunni groups like JUI (Deobandis) and JUP (Barelvis) support that is above tribalism. In Punjab, biggest tribes are sub-tribes of Jats and Rajputs. In southern Punjab, both Jats and Rajput are interchangeable and usually considered one and the same. In central Punjab, Jats are more powerful than Rajputs nut Rajputs are much powerful in northern Punjab.

Other reason for decrease in tribal affiliation has to do multiple candidates running from the same constituency under different party banners. A Jat will have to face one or more Jats, and in Sindh, more often, a Shah will be pitted against another Shah, a Talpur against another. Parties do not take risk of giving tickets to outsider, no matter how important outsiders contribute to the party. Those people are compensated through Senate or preferential treatments in other ways.

Caste word is limited for low castes, although some people care about caste within Jats etc with such titles as ``Najib-Ul-Tarfain Jat, Rajput or Syed. Caste is used for artisans, such as dhobi, mochi, kasai who are above the lowest caste, janitors. The lower castes are traditionally loyal to the tribes they are affiliated with. Artisans living in Jat dominated support Jats rather than their caste living among another tribe. Districts are not divided according to caste or tribes but tribes do influence division into electoral districts which are based on population. For example, population wise, Lyallpur and Multan are the largest districts in Pakistan. Both of them have around 15 national assembly seats. In Lyallpur, three urban seats are dominated by a tribe called AraiN. They often use Mian sername, as opposed to Chaudhry by others, like Mian Azhar of PML (Q). Rest of the seats go to Jats and Rajputs. In Multan, instaed of Jats and Rajputs, the big names are Qureshi, Gilani, Gardezi, Hashmi, Khakwani etc but Jats and Rajputs do have some powerful rural constituencies there. In Bahawalpur, everybody has to fight against the family of former Nawab of bahawalpur who does not belong to traditional tribal structures. They are Abbasi, related to one of Mohammad`s uncle. In Dera Ghazi Khan, Punjab, Baloch tribes such as Leghari, Mazari and Khosa dominate the population and politics.

Between Indis and Jhelum rivers, Awan and Gakkhar tribes dominate. They are Rajput tribes. The life outside politics is much more influenced by tribal affiliations. People favoring end of feudalism do not realize that it is much more than land distribution among feudals. The tribal affiliation will not end with agriculture reforms or limiting the land holding to a low level.

The military generals also behave like a tribe. They intermarry their children more often and live on land and residential colonies built by military.

Jhelum district still sends more people to army than any other district although Attock (Campbellpur) and Mardan also send large numbers.

SameerJB

Some questions relating to the Punjabi society in Pakistan.

I often hear that the Punjabis are tribal and not caste based - when many share their surnames with Hindus or Sikhs. If that is the case how did caste morph into a tribal existence. How does this impact the chances of candidiates in elections when these are held? I mean are distts gerrymandered for particular caste groupings.

The recruitment for the British army ( from the areas that are part of Pakistan now), was primarily from the Jhelum distt. Has this feature changed ? Do you have tribal / caste based regiments such as the Dogras/Ghurkas/Jats in India?

harimau meow-meow:

[But the only books you are supposed to read are on Jinnah by Stanley Wolpert and Hector Bolitho. That is all the reading a secular Pakistani needs just as the Koran is the only book a fundamentalist Muslim needs to read.]

---you wicked man you! of course you`re using me to get your claws into certain other secular Pakistanis, and fundoos...maaan, give it a rest every once in a while, na?

And nobody, but nobody dictates what I`m supposed to read :) I would just as soon live under the sea, or move to Neptune, then be subjected to a Fahrenheit 451 like earth!

``Urdu is a Muslim language`` is not an accurate statement. The right way to put it is to say that Urdu was originated by Muslims. Non-Mulims did not need a new language particularly in Arabic script. It was the need of Muslims to communicate with natives as well as able to write it.

Many things in world history started by a particular group of people and adopted by others depending on merits and utility. Chess, football, hockey, sicentific laws were all developed by one group or another. Many things had bad history behind them but later turned good and many things in the world started off as good but turned bad with time.

It really does not matter who originated Urdu but, one way, its utility was really lost once Muslims lost power in subcontinent. Thinking in another way, its utility increased due to using same alphabets as quran and the concept of Indian Ummah, the one nation, now half nation, out of the original two nations (TNT) who were either one nation or many nations depending on the importance of the variables applied to define a nation.

One important factor that clearly points to Urdu as adopted language of Muslims is that, despite being intellectually barren, Muslims produced much more literature in Urdu than Hindus or Sikhs. Hardly anybody can name more than 10 famous Hindus or Sikhs in Urdu literature whereas one can find ten Urdu poets standing by the paan shop at the corner of your local Street in Lahore.

Dost-mittar # 308

Another point of discussion is this, I leave this for the chowkies to ponder upon.

I believe that the so-called Ashrafs never really gave serious thought to wholesale conversions because that would have put them in a woeful minority vis-a-vis the emerging local converts with whom they would then have to marry share power, and enjoy wealth with.

So deep-inside the caste system continued albeit ironically through the Muslim Turkish conquerors.

rsridhar #300 , 301

Regarding your other comment about a person choosing to not adopt the Northern Muslim culture - here are my thoughts

Firstly the Muslim population of Tamil Nadu has two major strains - one which is indigenous or has been localised , the other is clearly the element that came from the North / NW India and may be actually from Afghanistan.

The first strain includes two different peoples - the Marikkars who are basically descendants of Arab traders and the Labbais who are converts to Islam from Tamil Nadu.By the way the current President of India is a descendant of Marikkars.

In recent times a fourth group has been added to this by the migrant Malabari Muslims who retain their Malabari culture.

The other group would include the Turks , Pathans and such eg. Nawab of Arcot , these people never adopted Tamil culture. These people stayed with their origins and later on adopted Urdu as their language.

There has been little intermingling between the foreign and local groups. As a matter fact of fact some Tamil Muslims as they make it up the social ladder choose to identify with Urdu and ``Urduise`` simply because in their estimation that puts them higher in the social ladder .

There is strong pressure on Southern Muslim groups to sdopt Urdu as their language.

Ref ana #: 310

[... he was reading `India: A History` by John Keay, and how he was fascinated by the development of Urdu as a language. He compared the beginning of it to a street language.... ooookay! Vaise have you read John Keay`s book. You can buy the paperback at 30% discount from amazon.com right now. Has anyone read that?]

Sure I have. But the only books you are supposed to read are on Jinnah by Stanley Wolpert and Hector Bolitho. That is all the reading a secular Pakistani needs just as the Koran is the only book a fundamentalist Muslim needs to read.

re:Reply #: 306

MT

I was speaking of the southern most part of India, including parts of TN, Karnataka, Kerala. I am aware that muslim rulers of AP (Bijapur, Golconda etc)were more traditional than even their northern counterparts.

I was referring to Sufi to mean ``peaceful`` and not necessarily ``sufi form of islam``.

Sridhar

I was going to be flip and say that Indian Urdu is Hindi...but lest I should be castigated and cast out from this chowkian paradise, I will refrain from saying it although I already have so it is too late..oh well.

I don`t know if it`s entirely accurate to call Urdu a Muslim language...yes it has quite a few Arabic, persian, and some turkish words `urdu` is a turkish word itself..but to claim a language belongs to a certain faith..like the Greek language did exist before the Bible was translated into that language...and the pre-Islamic Arabs and Persians had quite a culture before Islam came into the picture..`nyways. Like I said, I don`t think it`s accurate to call Urdu a Muslim language, tho` there are Urdu and Hindi speakers alike who may think that it is. It`s more of a political tool to say that.

The word `urdu` itself refers to camp..so Urdu originated as a language of the camp, so that people who came from afar, like Baghdad, e.g or Persia, and the Hindi speakers could communicate with one another...I know I`m putting it in really simplistic terms...but `nyways. The deacon in my church who is also a history school teacher was telling me he was reading `India: A History` by John Keay, and how he was fascinated by the development of Urdu as a language. He compared the beginning of it to a street language....ooookay! Vaise have you read John Keay`s book. You can buy the paperback at 30% discount from amazon.com right now. Has anyone read that?

im interested what is the difference between indian urdu and pakistani urdu? they say alag we say salam? we have more arabized words like mukhtalif? what is the history behind urdu as a muslim language?

MT: Most Pakistanis are unfamiliar with the history of South India. It is heartening to see you unveiling many aspects of that part coming in contact with Muslims. We are taught little bit about Nizams of Hyderabad and, of course, Tipu Sultan. Tipu is remembered in Pakistan on his anniversary on 4th of May (he was killed on May 4, 1799). Tipu was an Afghan and so was Nawab Siraj-Ud-Daula in Bengal. Mir Jafar and Mir Sadiq were also Afghans or Persians. Actually no Punjabi or any native convert to Islam ever made it to the top during Islamic Empires period in India. Any Punjabi never ruled even Punjab during that period.

I am very familiar with the terrible carnage and destruction at Vijaynagar although the name Vijaynagar does not even appear in most Pakistani history books. What happened at Vijaynagar was far worse than what happened at Somnath Temple in Gujrat.

Despite all that Hindu-Muslim relations in the south are much better than north.

Traditionally Shia empires have always been more liberal than Sunni empires because of lower level of orthodoxy. They know very well the meaning of persecution and minority status. Some of their Empires in Egypt (Fatmiyah), Iran (Safavids) and in Sindh and Multan for a brief period are known to be respectful of non-Muslims and open-minded.

rsridhar: I agree with you and I stated that earlier that Hindu intellectuals became inward looking due to the ruthless pressure applied to their practices and intelligence. Not only inward looking but also becoming conservatives provided more safety than open discussions and debates.

Yes, the arguments and counter arguments of Vedanta philosophy between Shankara and Mimasa is a classical example of intellectual discussion, Indian Style. The discussion of non-dualism and dualism is a beauty.

Hinduism had to defend against caste system and idol worshipping during most of the Islamic periods but notice now idol worshipping is dropped because according to modern understanding of reformulated god, intellectually it is impossible to make a case for invisible deity over a symbolically visible. Actually things one can see and touch have more lasting impact on spirituality than imagining only. Notice the importance and influence of Kaaba and black stone (hajr-e-aswad) in its wall. People crush each other at Hajj and get to Kaaba as early as possible to be able to touch the holy stone and walls of Kaaba. The discussion between Catholics and Protestants over Jesus and Mary figures in Churches went nowhere, intellectually. The case against idol worshipping is just not there at all. To say that idols can not deliver anything does not answer if invisible can deliver anything either. Neither can bring rain without clouds.

fawad: All language start as accent of some old language. All northern India once spoke accents of Pali and Prakrit, which were derived from Sanskrit. Once people start writing, creating literature, political and geographical separation causes to consider one language no longer the accent of other language. Punjabi literature and writing is something like 800-900 years old. Such a long time makes it a clearly a language and not an accent. The technical problem right now is that TNT related issue like one nation, one language is collapsing on its own weight and uselessness in the real world. What kind of job, one can get by knowing Urdu and not Punjabi or knowing Punjabi and no Urdu? There is just nothing for both of these languages except communication with each other and literature. However aligning with one of these based on culture is desired for cultural identity. Urdu Speaking Mohajirs have every right to back Urdu for themselves and Punjabis to back Punjabis for themselves. The real test comes in choosing script or alphabets. The Arabic alphabets are perfect for Urdu but not good for many Punjabi sounds. Gurmukhi has the right alphabets for Punjabi or better, written in Roman alphabets so that all Punjabis can read it. Any serious introduction of teaching in Punjabi at primary level or just acceptance of Punjabi writing, will jeopardize Arabic alphabets, and with it Urdu writing and Quranic reading. The Arabic alphabets, called Shahmukhi is Punjabi, are not sufficient to properly sound Punjabi words.

Writing Punjabi in Roman alphabets is becoming as popular as Urdu writing in Roman alphabets. This is the first time in a long time that writing of Punjabi and Urdu are going parallel with the same interest. Before this, Punjabi writings never even barely matched Urdu writing among Muslims.

rsridhar #301

I do not agree with your surmise that the Islam of the South is of the Sufi type. AR Rehman may have converted because of the good guidance of some SUfi , that does not prove that Southern Islam is Sufi in nature, unless your definition of the South encompasses TN alone. TN hardly accounts for any substantial portion of the Muslim population of the South.

The Islam of Hyd AP is by and large of the orthodox variety and actually the Deobandi type of thought has ardent followers there. The Islam of the coastal regions of the Southwest is not exactly Sufi , neither is the Islam of the interior of Karnataka. It is fashionable to call strains of Islam SUfi without really getting into the dteails of what they are.

IMO, the more interesting or intriguing issue is the distribution of religious populations as Sameer points out. UP,MP and Bihar were the real strongholds of initially Turk-Afghan rulers and later mughal rulers. Agra remained the capital of Mughal rule for a fairly long period. From whatever little history I know, the caste system was practiced with far more rigidity in these aforementioned areas than Bengal, Punjab or Sindh. Deccan and Rajputana never had a continuous and prolonged Muslim rule. But we see very surprisingly that the states that took lead in growth of muslim population through conversion were Punjab, Sindh and Bengal. Logically one would expect large scale conversions to be more of a norm in UP,MP, Bihar and Orissa etc where the twin factors of caste and continuous Muslim rule were present. But the pattern of distribution of religious demographics tells another story. I have some possible explanations but I am not very sure if they are sufficient.

re:Reply #: 291

Maharana

A good post. You captured very succinctly the essence of hinduism.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 282

satyavadi

I may be wrong (i am no historian!)but the idol worship predates vedic times and is a dravidian concept. Also the concept of linga worship, offering flower to deity are all very dravidian concepts, incorporated by the vedic seers.

Excavations at various sites have shown seals of Pashupathinath, a form of Shiva. So, while Yagnas and rituals dominated the vedic form of worship, idol worship slowly replaced them and the idea was, IMO, borrowed from the pre-Vedic times.

Sridhar