Good-Riddance

Dear Harpreet,

`What a small world it is, that you both share the same ancestral village and have met online. That makes you related to each other, in a way.`

Absolutly, mate, absolutely. But believe it or not, Samina Shah claims to knows me as well!!! Now the name Murtaza and Shah is common amongst Shia individuals (the Muslim Protestants) and some of them claim to have the blood of the prophet running through their cholesterated veins. She mentioned the name of this lady (Azra) and guess what, I happen to know of one!!! The thing is, despite the fact that I know of three, it is a rare name.

Of course, my guess is that it is something more sinister:).

And hey, if I`m related to someone with the same blood group as the prophet, you never know, I may even be related to Yasser!!!

Man, this world is getting claustrophobic...but it`s gonna get even smaller!!! Think about it:)

Take care.

Umer M.

dost-mittar & Umer Murtaza;

What a small world it is, that you both share the same ancestral village and have met online. That makes you related to each other, in a way.

:)

-h-

Premchand (1880-1936), born Munshi Dhampad Rai, is arguably the greatest name

in modern Urdu and Hindi fiction. His short stories and novels are still

widely read in India and Pakistan and, indeed, wherever there are people who

understand these two languages. His biographer, Amrit Rai, is not only his son

but a scholar who has made his mark as the author of an excellent study (The

house divided 1984) of how Urdu and Hindi became separate literary languages.

The book under review has been known to readers of Hindi since 1962 when it

was first published. But it needs to be known even more widely and this should

be possible now through the several English editions of it out of which the

most recent is the present one.

Premchand was a remarkable man; a rare genius but he lived a very ordinary

life. He was born in the village Lamahi near Banaras. He became a low paid

schoolmaster after having read some Urdu and Persian from a maulvi. As he was

a kyesth, this was what was expected from a child of his caste. He then

studied in a school where English was taught as a subject.

However, it was not the school which gave him his tremendous grasp over both

Urdu and Hindi. The boy was a genius and one manifestation of this was his

tremendous love for reading. Thus he read the classics of Urdu fiction, which

fell more or less all in the fairytale mode of fantastic and preternatural

writing, in those days. This kind of fiction gratified his imagination but

what he himself wrote was very different from it. Indeed, he came to be the

pioneer of realistic fiction in South Asia.

But this was to come in the future. In 1896 a traumatic experience occurred.

It was his marriage; but marriage with a woman so utterly incompatible as to

make his life a living hell. The following year his father died leaving him to

fend for himself. He was, after all, a postal clerk and but for his ancestral

house in the village left no property to his son. In 1899 he became a

schoolmaster at a salary of Rs18 and kept teaching, except for a short

interlude of inspecting schools, till 1921.

After this he set up a press, was a headmaster for a brief period, edited

magazines and started his own journals. Unfortunately, none of these

engagements brought him much money so that he never achieved his major dream

in life - to write without financial worries! And yet he kept writing. Never

in the midst of dreary school teaching; in checking proofs for publication; in

fighting with ill health (he had chronic dysentary) and trying to make ends

meet - never in all this did he cease scribbling at a furious rate.

The children played around him and his second wife Shivarani Davi, the one who

bore him children and was his real life partner, subjected him to many a

tirade but he never ceased creating that magic world of fictional characters

which is the quintessence of Premchand at his best.

Premchand first wrote under the pseudonym `Nawab Rai` till 1898. In 1906 he

adopted the nom de plume of Premchand because the British Deputy Collector

felt that the five short stories in Soz-i-Vatan were seditious and banned

them. He was inspired by contemporary events and social problems in his

writings.

Indeed, he was the first major literary artist to be so committed to the

solution of social, political and economic problems which faced India at that

time. That is why his books like Bazar-i-Husn investigate the conditions which

create the discarded woman rather than the aesthetic or erotic realities

attendant upon that condition. With such interests it was natural that he

would become an inspiration for the Marxist school of writing which came to be

known as the Progressive Writers` Movement.

However, Premchand himself remained too preoccupied with the problem of his

own life to become too active a part of any movement. He did write, however,

purely political journalistic pieces in his own journal Hans which was closed

down but resumed publication later. Premchand was an opponent of British

colonialism and a supporter of the Congress on many issues. Such was the

family`s engagement with anti-colonial politics that in 1930 even his wife,

Shivarani, went to jail for two months.

Premchand was also interested in promoting Hindustani, a neutral alternative

to Hindi and Urdu, so as to promote Indian (rather than Hindu and Muslim)

nationalism. He made many efforts to achieve these ends but, of course, the

opposing forces were too powerful and beyond anyone`s control.

In his last years Premchand was widely acclaimed as the great writer which he

was. However, he never became pompous or snobbish. He remained so humble that

he was often mistaken for an ordinary traveller when organizers of functions

came to greet him at railway stations. Above all, he kept struggling to find

some peace and relief from financial problems. But this was not to be. He died

on October 8, 1936 while his wife was helping him wash in the morning.

According to custom he was cremated in Lamahi by villagers who thought he was

nothing more than `some schoolmaster`.

This biography brings out the ordinariness of the living conditions of an

extraordinary man - a man who commands respect only because of his genius. In

a world of power where the murderers of millions are celebrated as conquerors

and those whose only virtue is to control lives are called heroes, it is a

rare achievement that an artist should be so outstanding as to be celebrated.

Human beings need role models as we are all impressed by power, money and

genius. Let our role models be those of geniuses, philanthropists and savers

of lives rather than manipulators, takers of lives and appropriators of

wealth. For this reason alone this biography is worth reading.

Secondly, the biography has been written in a very simple, effective, powerful

style. It is detached and without that tendency to heap encomiums and indulge

in fulsome praise which make hagiographies of biographies. This is all the

more remarkable as the author is Premchand`s son - a circumstance which must

have made neutrality of tone difficult.

Thirdly, Premchand emerges as a good human being: a simple, kindly, unassuming

man with a dignity which, in some cases, great cognitive abilities confer upon

an individual. And yet, since he was poor and powerless, it is good to take

him as a role model if one feels that in a world of powerful elitist

individuals and groups it is impossible for all others to be dignified.

I would like to end on a note of protest against the kind of social system we

have in South Asia. As observed above, all Premchand wanted was a steady

income to write in peace. Incidentally, that is exactly what Ghalib also

wanted. One was probably the greatest master of the short story of his time;

the other was, and remains, the greatest poet Urdu in the world. Yet, so

callous and short sighted is South Asian society that both were left in near

poverty and suffered as a consequence.

Dear Dost Mittar,

This is fascinating (and sad also). Before anything, let me give you a few facts. I was born in `79 and knew that place from 82-84. You must be laughing at hearing this because I was so young but I must assure you that my memory from the age of 3 is surprisingly good! Hell, I even remember the operation performed on my neck (when I was barely 3) and I remember the red, white and yellow telephone toy, the orange colour of my room, the barren tree outside and the rail tracks and the twins and me thinking in Urdu (that was the most fascinating memory of all) why I didn’t have someone to play with….aaaanyway, I`m digressing.

Here`s what I remember. From the period of 82-84, I heard everyone call the place Guru Nanak Pura. I definitely saw Sikh males. Every one of them was old. I even remember the colours of their pughs. I didn`t see any Sikh ever wear an orange pugh (so I assume they weren`t Jatt). But It wasn`t as if I knew their addresses or anything. It was usually during the good ol` avara gardi (for which I would get my ears pulled and once I was almost kidnapped) when I would spot `old men with funny blue and black hats`.

As for the Gurudwara, I have no recollection of one. Maybe it`s because I never went inside gali 5 or that the Gurudwara was replaced by another building. Iqbal Manzil does strike a chord but I`d be lying if I said I knew anymore than that. My operational base was the end of Gali number 8 because a tai of mine lived there. Stinky place it was. I do remember a family member mentioning that gali number 5 and 6 were exceptionally clean. There weren`t any cows or cow $hit. Would you know of a person called Maula Baksh. Would that ring any bells??? He was my grandfather and took a havelli stretching from gali number 6 to 8. This was after the partition.

I`m genuinely sad to hear that they`ve decided to change the name of the place. I haven`t been to Pakistan for ages so wouldn’t really know what`s happened to it. What`s the place called now? What about the Gurudwara? What happened to it, as in, how was the holy place disposed of? I`ve just recently been to a big, fancy Gurudwara so I`m assuming that all the holy bits could be easily disassembled?

Oh my, it is a small world. But do let me know. Best wishes and thank you.

Umer M.

PS. Don`t suppose you know a guy called Chachaa Ilmdeen. He owns a little shop on gali number 8 (maybe a supermarket franchise by now).

Dhanyawad Banjara. As you say...

Prem, sadna :)

hey thanks to both of you. I had heard `ghaneshyam` before, but I didn`t know what that referred to.

as for prem`s [Krishna turned blue from the sheer exhaustion of constantly running after a zillion pretty gopikas in Mathura and Vrindavan :)]---but he would surely stop at some point and come up for air, no? :)

...the psychopaths are at it again...ram really was blue, jesus really did walk on oceans, allah really does have 72 virgins in heaven for all the good muslim boys...good for you all...

Akash

Kabir Das said:

Aisee vani boliye, man ka aapa khoye

Apna tan sheetal kare,auran ko sukh hoye

Regards.

Krishna is also known as `Ghanashyam` meaning dark as a cloud. You understand what they mean when you see an inky monsoon cloud, a shade dark and blue both.

Dear Akash,

Man. you have got some problem. The so called Abrahmic religions also believe that the world began in 4000 B.C. and that the God ``created`` everything in six days

Not true my friend. Aramaic is a dead language, so the original flavour has been lost. I cannot read Hebrew (nor classical Arabic fully for that matter) but the word `yaum` which is used in Quran means not just days but also ages. So the worlds was created over six ages.

It`s just a matter of personal opinions and interpretations, I guess.

Best wishes,

Umer M

Prem #68,

where the heck are you thse days.

re: Akash # 72

Take it easy Akash Mian.

Only fools fight over matters of religion, and you are not a fool.

Kabuli has his opinion, you have yours. It`s not like either of you saw things firsthand in TretaYug.



re: Ana # 71

Krishna turned blue from the sheer exhaustion of constantly running after a zillion pretty gopikas in Mathura and Vrindavan :)

Seriously, ``Krishna`` means the dark one. But why blue? I have been told about all kinds of symbolisms:

1. Blue is the color of the skies, it denotes infinity.

2. Blue is the color of oceans. Since Vishnu is supposed to live in the oceans, his incarnations (both Ram and Krishna) are depicted as blue.

3. Blue depicts someone of ``another world.``

Take your pick.

Or, better still, make up one of your own. Krishna is pretty easy-going in such matters :)

Kabuliwallah

I am sorry if I was harsh. Actually I was quite pissed off when you said that Lord Ram did not exist without any proof. Note that I am not using this as the pretext for demotlition of any mosque. For in my own worldview, I believe that ``mann changa to kathauti mein ganga``. Lord Ram`s life story teaches us about the morality and I can never approve of any act that causes unnecessary violence towards anyone. Lord Ram does not exist in idols, but in the hearts of the majority Hindus. You dont need to go to any mandir if your heart is pure. If you had been at chowk for some time, you would know that I am one of the diehard opponents of RSS and their ``Hindutva`` brand. But I am a proud Hindu nevertheless.

achcha, here`s my question..since I`m not all that familiar with Hinduism, `cept for a few passages I`ve read from the Bhagavad Gita..

why is Krishna always depicted as blue? I asked someone this question once and the only answer I got was because he is dark. Okay, so if he`s dark, why not depict him as such...what is the significance/symbolism behind Krishna being blue?

regards, ana

Kabuliwallah

``. The sad part is, Hindus believe that the events in their`` holy texts ``actually happened. Which is impossible if you take the religious texts at their word. It is well know that time is divided into Yugas (Treta, Dwapara, Kali etc) and each in turn runs into dozens of thousands of years. Either Hindus have been freakishly living on this planet far too longer than others or the texts are wrong. ``

Man. you have got some problem. The so called Abrahmic religions also believe that the world began in 4000 B.C. and that the God ``created`` everything in six days. If you have the guts, come out in open and say that all the Abrahmic texts are wrong and let me see if you can escape the blashphemy law. Ever heard of Al-Aqsa in mosque in Israel where people have been killed by thousands. Go to Israel and try proving it to people that Prophet Muhammad could not have rose to heaven from that mosque. Try convincing people that since NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE(Time ) has ever been discovered of whether anyone called moses or David or Solomon ever existed. Go and try convincing people that Jesus was actually a .... So you look the other way when it is atught to the people that Moses parted Red sea and argue with Hindus when they say Hanuman jumped over sea to reach Lanka. Typical disgusting p-sec. Try convincing people that Jesus could not have walked on water or rose after death. Does that falsify Judaism, Christianity etc.

Why are all the answers to be scientifically rigorous demanded only from Hinduism? Is it because we are so telerent that you know you can abuse our religious figures and get away with. Should we also enact a blashphemy law? The foundations of any religion are based on faith and the beliefs of the people. I believe that like Homer`s Odyssey, Valmiki Ramayana also recounts a real story if we take out of it the unnatural exaggerations. And Ramayana and Mahabharat are cornerstones of our culture. People derive their inspiration from them and learn their basic lessons in morality. Hindu religious beliefs are attacked with impunity in their own country. It was this kind of grievance among the Hindu population against the self styled secularists who deny the existence of Lord ram but gleefully accept the Prophet rising to heaven in body that was responsible for the backlash in the form of rise of Sangh parivar. You disgusting p-secs have dome more harm to the country that RSS was ever capable of.

Kabuli #55
Re Aryavarta
I don`t see a basis in the article you refer to, to consider Elst`s terminology to be anything but his own.

Re back to your remark about gods not going Shiva, etc. Let me point out a few more instances which contradict your assertion.

There is the famous churning of the ocean of milk for the nectar of immortality. You probably know it already. The gods got the king of serpents Vasuki to act as rope, the mountain Mandara to act as churn. The mountain began to sink into the ocean so Vishnu turned into a tortoise to hold it up. The gods pulled at the serpent rope from one side and the asuras (with whom they had a truce for the purpose) from another.

The first thing that came out from the churning of the ocean was poisonous fluid, which began to destroy the world and so in his compassion Shiva swallowed it, and held it in his throat which turned blue, which is why Shiva is also known as Neelkanth.

(The story goes on about how the churning resumed and other things came out of the ocean, including the moon which was given to Shiva(so he is known as Chandrashekhar), and the cow Surabhi who gave birth to Nandi( Shiva`s bull), the elephant Airavata and the apsaras(given to Indra) and Lakshmi, who became Vishnu`s wife.

Lastly the pot of nectar emerged, which the asuras snatched away. A few drops of nectar from the pot fell on earth, at Allahabad,
Ujjain, Nasik and Hardwar during the ensuing chase which is why the Kumbh Mela is held in these places. Finally Vishnu turned into a beautiful woman Mohini and distracted the
asuras allowing the gods to recover the pot of nectar, drink from it and become immortal.)

And how about Shiva breaking the force of the descent from heaven to earth of the river Ganga on himself at the request of Bhagirath, an ancestor of Ram. The Ganga emerged from Shiva`s locks(now is that a pun or what) in seven streams and apparently he is also credited with creating the Gangetic dolphin to carry the message of her descent).

And how about Mahashivaratri the only night when Shiva sleeps so the world remains awake in his stead(and our local cinema would show movies all night to help some consentious humans do their duty :))

Shiva is definitely a central figure in the Puranas and regarded with not only respect but affection, North or South.

Just read some more interacts on the old question of racism, color, etc etc.

Not being a historian (and even historians don`t have a clue on this matter - the events we speak of occurred so far back in time), I have a simple understanding of these issues.

It is clear (to me at least) that somewhere in the dawn of Indian history, there occurred a struggle for supremacy between people with fairer skins and people with darker skins. In this struggle, people with fairer skins more often than not won.

Many old Indian texts speak of this struggle, and being written by the victors, are often not very fair to people with darker skins.

From today`s point of view, there is an undeniable racism inherent in these texts. We need to accept that fact.

However, the most remarkable fact (for me, personally) is not that of differentiation - a disease that ancient Indians share(d) with the rest of the world - but the its ultimate and remarkable resolution in religious terms.

The notion that the Trinity includes both `white` Vishnu and `black` Shiva is breathtakingly powerful. So is the fact that Kali- without any shadow of doubt a non-Aryan Goddess - is assigned so central a place in Hindu religious conscience and pantheon.

And, as Sadhna has pointed out, no theories of racism can explain the awe and affection in which Hanuman is held throughout North India. Every village in North India has (at least used to have)a temple dedicated to Hanuman. Nobody, it is said, can reach Lord Ram but through the kind Graces of Hanuman. To be a Hanuman-Bhakt is a mtter of pride for everyone - black, white, or blue.

Ofcourse, Ram himself is portrayed as a DARK man, as is Krishna!

So, it is alright to accuse many old Hindu texts of racism, IF one has some basic understanding of Hinduism, if one acknowledges that Hinduism as a whole came up with some most remarkable resolutions of inter-race conflicts.

Shallow understandings of Hinduism will lead to utter follies like the ones in which people confuse varna for color.

IMO, Hindus must NOT be afraid of looking into their past, and acknowledging both the good and the bad; but they must NOT let others impose their self-serving interpretations on things important to Hindus. We have allowed others to do that for far far too long. The results have been, to say the least, catastrophic.

No more, no way :)

Cheers.

re: Kabuliwallah # 58

Right on.

Although RamCharitmanas is one of the most awe-inpiring books you will ever read, there is in it, also, a great deal of racism, sexism, and ugly casteism. For all his divine inspiration, Goswami ji could not escape the silliness of his times.

But Kabuli, I don`t think Hindus believe in their fairy tales any more or less than others believe in their fairy tales. Silliness is an integral part of every religion. The crux of the matter is: do we recognize the silliness for what it is, or are we willing to kill and die for it?

Kabuli

[there are stories in the Janamsakhis of how Sikhs from as far as Bukhara coming and paying homage to the Gurus...]

- From as far as Bukhara? Wow. There is a Gurudwara in Baghdad. I saw a photograph of a stone inscription there commemorating the stay of ``Sheikh Nanak`` from Hind there. It was in a book I was rifling through at someones house about all the major Gurudwaras in the world outside India. There is a small community in Tehran apparently, and a couple of Gurudwaras there too.

Did you visit Taran Taran?? The pool in there is twice the size of the one in amritsar, its just massive. It takes you 40 minutes to walk around it once. But with the sun glistening off the water it is so relaxing.

[and yes, I thought one does get to see the whole spectrum of humanity in Amritsar...]

- Apart from all the religious significance, it is the best place to do people watching. I could spend days just watching the people go by and chatting to people. We went on the Birthday of Bhagat Guru Ravi Das do it was really busy, and I met one of my friends from London there by complete coincidence. i am not very religious, in fact I am an agnostic, but we oth agreed that this was a blessing, because we hadnt seen each other in over six months and then we bump into each other there at Harimandir Sahib.

There are always people from the Sikh diaspora there, from Canada, UK, America, but I loved most speaking to and seeing people from all over India. I saw a family who must have been Ladakhi, they had Oriental features, wearing Himalayan clothing, fair skinned.

-h-

Actually, screw it. I`ve just re-read Kabuli`s post to ana. Sorry...just that time of the morning and the music`s very loud.

Good day to you all.

Umer M.

Dear Fawad, ana, Kabuli,

`are there sikhs in pakistan?`

Is Michael Jackson white........actually, don`t answer that.

Back in the days when I was in Pakistan(Faisalabad), there was this place called GuruNanak Pura and whenever I visited that area or the surrounding regions (munching on jaamnu and faalse, may I add), I saw many Sikh fellas walking around.

Ana, Kabuli, funny you shud mention the Badshahi Masjid. Some guy asked me to do some work for him and whilst I was doing him a pic of Badshahi Masjid, I also did these two `Sikh looking buildings`. The smaller of the two had a gloden dome. The other one was more muscular looking and had a white dome.

Just interested in knowing a bit more about it. kabuli?

Umer M.

kabuliwallah..

wow..i wish i could remember who had told me that, it was sooooo long ago, but the history is so interesting and eye-opening for me..thank you! tau you`ve been there na, and you probably know the spot I`m talking about...I have a vague recollection of a metallic plate, dunno (i haven`t been to Lahore in decades :()

I think we knew even then that we couldn`t enter the gurudwara. We had visited all the sites surrounding it countless times, I should think we would have visited it if we could. I`ve been to Sheikhupura, but not to Nankana Sahib..is it in or near Sheikhupura where the drunken somewhat fundoo Jehangir had Hiran Minar built?

re: fawad

``are there Sikhs in Pakistan...``

The border that runs between Indian and Pakistan managed to make millions of people homeless, but religious shrines couldn`t get up, pack their history and significance and flee, na. Sikhs long to visit their historic gurudwaras in Pakistan and remember them in their evening prayers everyday. Most of the few Sikhs who remain in Pakistan, usually live around these Sikh holy shrines, especially Nankana Sahib near Sheikhupura, and credit has to be given to the Pakistan govt. for this, is beautifully maintained. It is the birthplace of Guru Nanak. Other important Gurudwaras are in Hasan Abdal (Gurudwara Panja Sahib which has a remarkable story associated with it) and in Lahore, where the Fifth Guru of the Sikhs was martyred. Interestingly many Sikhs, settled outside Punjab in what is today Pakistan, especially in the NWFP. In fact, Ayub Khan, in his autobiography writes that as a child, he went to a school run by Sikhs and he still has (had?) fond memories of it. Sikhs stormed the gates of Kabul too, the first time in the history of the subcontinent maybe since the time of Asoka, that an invasion occurred from East to West, under the leadership of Ranjit Singh and the great Sikh general, Hari Singh Nalwa. Hari Singh Nalwa is usually given credit for building the Jamrud Fort outside Peshawar.

re: ana

wow, that is a first, feet getting burnt...maybe people think that because the fifth Guru, Guru Arjan, was martyred by boiling him in a cauldron of oil...maybe that is somehow related to the thinking...Jehangir, inspite of the drinking, had a bit of the fundoo in him, and ordered the death of the fifth Guru...He didn`t have the last laugh, however, as the Guru asked if he could have a dip in the Ravi, and just didn`t come out again (Ravi in those days ran very close to the fort, I`ve been told...it has now changed course)...The gurudwara stands on the spot of the cauldron...Ranjit Singh`s madhi is next to the Gurudwara...it is nothing spectacular, made of brick...I remember seeing two madhis inside, donno whose the other was...maybe one of his numerous wives...I remember being told that only Sikhs and Hindus are allowed inside Gurudwaras in Pakistan, by the chowkidaar...sad really because the Gurus never, ever, excluded anybody irrespective of religion, race, caste, whatever from entering Gurudwaras, a tradition faithfully followed by Gurudwaras anywhere in the form of free boarding and langar.

regards

Kabuli

fawad:

re: are there sikhs in Pakistan...

---there is a gurduwara in Lahore, right around the same area as Badshahi Masjid and the Qila..I think it`s also called the Golden Temple (although I may be confusing it with another place)..I remember always wanting to visit it as we drove by, just to see what it looked like..and there was a particular spot, where you were instructed not to stand..and I always wanted to stand there just to see what would happen..someone told me my feet would burn! I think that quite a few Sikhs have visited Lahore for pilgrimage, but I don`t know if very many live there, if at all.

are there sikhs in pakistan?

re: Akash # 52

This is what I had written in my earlier post:

Ramcharitmanas is quite different from Valmiki`s Ramayana. And so are the thousand year old translations of the Ramayana into Telugu and other South Indian languages. Many inconsistencies in all of them. What is important is how they`ve shaped or influenced their societies. I will not deny that there are many inspiring stories in the Ramayana inspite of its racist and sexist overtones. (The same goes for the Mahabharata inspite of its blatant caste discrimination in the case of Ekalavya and Karna). The story of Sabari, the low caste hermit in the Ramayana; and Krishna`s friendship with his poor pundit classmate are my personal favourites. The sad part is, Hindus believe that the events in their`` holy texts ``actually happened. Which is impossible if you take the religious texts at their word. It is well know that time is divided into Yugas (Treta, Dwapara, Kali etc) and each in turn runs into dozens of thousands of years. Either Hindus have been freakishly living on this planet far too longer than others or the texts are wrong. I wish the puranas and other constituents of the Hindu`` religious texts ``are appreciated by Indians (all Indians, much like Greeks and Italians today) for whatever redeeming value they have and not be treated as historical grounds for pulling down the religious places of minorities. And also call a spade, a spade. But I guess it is a question of conscience and is thus personal. But the operative word there is conscience.



I guess that sums up my opinion.

regards

Kabuli

re: Harpreet # 51

Fateh Fateh Waheguru...long time...we lost touch after a while, hai na?...good to hear from you.

``I was in India in March and met some Kabuliwallah Sikhs at Harimandir Sahib, they had escaped through Pakistan around the time the taleban started making them wear yellow labels. They looked more Afghan than Punjabi though, brown hair and the jackets and coats they were wearing, goats hide and the like. They said their families had been there from before partition.``

Yeah, probably settled there MUCH before partition...there are stories in the Janamsakhis of how Sikhs from as far as Bukhara coming and paying homage to the Gurus...and many famous Sikhs were from Kabul and Afghanistan...there is this one story of how a Sikh from Kabul gave a magnificent canopy/tent to the tenth Patshah, which rivalled in splendour to that of Aurangzeb himself...I too went to Punjab recently... in May....man, was it hot....but got to go to Fatehgarh and Harmandir Sahib...and yes, I thought one does get to see the whole spectrum of humanity in Amritsar...brown, white, black you name it...I did meet one Afghani Sikh when I went to Nankana Sahib, but his family had by then settled down in Lahore...he said he is a cloth merchant there...with a brother in Delhi...and oh there is a fascinating story associated with a gurudwara called Amb Sahib in Chandigarh...a few furlongs from Mohali stadium...if my memory serves me right, every year, during the off season, when it would be as difficult to find mangoes as a pond in the middle of the Sahara, the tree planted at Amb Sahib in what is now Chandigarh, by Guru Hargobind I think, gives a solitary mango...my host explained to me that it is a promise, that the Guru made to one of his Sikhs.

regards

Kabuli

re: dost-mittar # 50

``He was definitely sensitive and perceptive but not from a low-cast. He belonged to the highly successful `kaystha` caste. Like everywhere else, the reform against opression of caste-system was led not be the oppressed but by some men with conscience from among the opressors. The opressed usually lead revolts, not reforms.``

I agree with you...I never meant to imply that he was a low-caste in my post...further reason for him being sensitive and perceptive, coming from where he did come from...but he did go through a period of acute poverty after his father died...I remember reading about it in 7th grade Hindi in Hyderabad in school...I meant to say in my earlier post that, his poverty maybe enabled him to better appreciate the misery of the underprivileged...and you are right once again, about many reformers coming from the privileged classes...Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Gandhi etc to name a few...but I think reform doesn`t do much for the self-confidence or the peace of mind of the oppressed...revolution does...and the best example of that, at least one I can think of, was the teaching of the Sikh Gurus.

regards

Kabuli

re: sadna # 54

sorry...just saw the post, after I posted #55...will try to reply once I reach Michigan

Kabuli

re: sadna # 48


``To be honest, I donot understand your arguments which are self-contradictory``

Ummm..Grrr...Hurrrrrmph...ab kya bataaoon...have loads of last minute packing to do before I move in back for my fall sem...maybe we can continue this conversation some other time.

I`ve seen the map of Aryavarta many times...in books, I borrowed from the Rutgers library...but, umm, I found a reference in hinduismtoday.com of all places:

The varna system expanded from the Saraswati-Yamuna area and got firmly established in the whole of Aryavarta (Kashmir to Vidarbha, Sindh to Bihar). It counted as a sign of superior culture setting the arya, civilized, heartland apart from the surrounding mleccha, barbaric, lands. In Bengal and the South, the system was reduced to a distinction between brahmins and shudras.

The link to the article:

http://www.hinduismtoday.com/1994/9/1994-9-12.html#Caste,%20Prof.%20%20Elst

Considering, that it is a site meant to show Hinduism in good light, by and large, and even for them to admit what Aryavarta stood for, I think it is good proof.

I did go to Elephanta Caves...as a child...my first boat ride on the sea...yes, I do remember the beautiful sculpture, especially that of Ardh Nareshwara...that is the one that has really stuck in my mind...many of the rock hewn statues were disfigured...I wonder which misguided zealot claims the credit for it

regards

Kabuli

PS to Kabuli:

OK, where was I?I think I meant Sati was Brahma`s granddaughter, not Brihaspati`s. Kabuli, how do you postulate that the complexion of the Purana writers` was fair and those you say they had a prejudice against were dark?

``nobody explains as to why Ram`s army in his colossal fight against Ravana is depicted as that of monkeys and beasts...no disrespect to monkeys and all``

Thats another thing which contradicts your `Northern racist bias against South` theory. If being `designated` a monkey was a fair Northerner Purana writers` way of showing racism and disrespect of a S. Indian, then why would most of India`s Hanuman temples and cults be found in NORTH India? I was really surprised, after growing up in the South to find that some regions of Delhi are closed down on Tuesdays because that day of the week is designated for Hanuman`s bhakts to fast or whatever. The only Hanuman temple I personally have come across in the South is the one within the local Army cantonment(along with the mosque and church), which has a N.Indian priest. Puranic writers really did a poor job of disrespect, don`t you think :)

Re Vaishnavism and Shaivism, the Tirupati tradition is supposed to be a significant combination of both. The Ayyappa tradition in Kerala goes two steps further. Ayyappa was supposed to be the son of Shiva and a female form of Vishnu. Not only that he is supposed to have had a very close Muslim friend and every first time worshipper at the Ayyappa temple in Sabarimala pays his respects at the Muslim shrine dedicated to this friend. The Travancore and Cochin rajas have ofcourse been Vaishnavite for many generations now. Again, its my uninformed speculation that the two traditions made peace to counter the influence of Buddhism in some regions in the South and perhaps Jainism in others.

Re the racism wrt Eklavya and Karna in Mahabharata(and Vali in the Ramayana), I always wondered why the discrimination against them were described in such poignant detail by the author if he didnot want his readers to ponder over the tragedy and futility of such discrimination?

Re Veershaivas : I have no problem either what they call themselves. I too have no problem with creation/rejection of mythology which often accompanies caste reform/revolt. There was a major Dalit reformer in Kerala (a Dalit himself) Ayyan Kali who managed in the early 1900s to do a lot for his community while reviving those portions of mythology which supported Dalit reform and integration in Hindu society, but that sort of politics of integration is the harder route to reform, the politics of differences is much easier and who is to say less valid.

My caveat is only that all because of modern Constitutional provisions, the path seems to be cultivated or manufactured estrangement which IMO can rapidly become counterproductive.
IMO, the Hindu-Muslim divide in India deepened when the British made it the state`s business to get communities to declare what single religion they belonged to and sectarianism among Muslims in Pakistan was a direct result of the state making it its business to say who is a Muslim.
I think the Indian Constitution should be amended so that it is 1. truly blind to religious identity 2. all religious institutions are administered by public trusteeship and community organisations without exception.

You have gotten the hang of translations. Yusufi is your best yet! This one is good too.

Can we ask for more Yusufi and some others, maybe Bedi and Shoukat Siddiqui?

Kabuli

``the Veera Shaivas feel that their beliefs or faith is in danger for whatever reason, then they have the right to defend themselves constitutionally. And if it means, reinventing mythologies, so what?...Its not like they are concrete anyway...I mean, they are myths....if their conscience is clear and they are not hurting anybody, then its all good, hai na?``

The events narrated in Rigveda, Mahabharata and Ramayana are not considered to be myths, even by historians. Take the divine aspect out and they represent our only source of knowledge about the ancient Indian society, their customs, rituals etc. And they are a very important source of Hindu philosophy. So I strongly resent your use of the word ``myth`` that obviously conveys the wrong meaning. You must have heard of Homer`s Illiad and Odyssey and how the events described in it were later proved to be approx correct from archaeological excavations. I believe most of the events described in Ramayana and Mahabharat minus divinity are either correct verbatim or symbolism of some major changes ocuring in the Indian society. It is virtually impossible to write such big treatise and even more diffiult to popularise it had it not been based on some form of actual event. Recent info from excavataions about a submerged city Dwarka, Karmabhoomi of Lord Krishna, being located approx where it was said to be in Mahabharat gives additional weight to my convictions. Once again I would appreciate if you do not use any such word as ``myth`` when talking about Hindu texts. You can privately hold whatever view you want.

Sat-Sri-Akal Kabuliwallah!

Whats up?? Hows life treating you??

I was in India in March and met some Kabuliwallah Sikhs at Harimandir Sahib, they had escaped through Pakistan around the time the taleban started making them wear yellow labels. They looked more Afghan than Punjabi though, brown hair and the jackets and coats they were wearing, goats hide and the like. They said their families had been there from before partition.

So tell us whats been happening.

-h-

What on earth is wrong with you guys?

I remember struggling through some of Munshi Premchand`s short stories in school in the original Hindi, and believe me the pathos he brought to his work was real. This sham of a translation reads more like a spoof rather than a genuine attempt to introduce the master to the English-speaking.

Let me not even START on the grammatical errors and the inconsistencies of flow and language.

Seriously, you Pakis are too easily impressed.

Kabuliwallah #45
To be honest, I donot understand your arguments which are self-contradictory. But mythology is fun so here goes :)

If Agastya was `S.Indian` and was not EVER considered an asura, then why are you an asura simply for being `S.Indian`?

I have never seen the region south of Vindhyas designated the land of asuras ever. Even Pataal was never said to be their abode. And you seem have forgetten the Ramayan references to Sabari?

Ravana was famed for his `unpleasant` activities long before Ram and Sita came on the scene. He seized his elder brother Kubera`s kingdom and his wealth(and the Pushpak Viman) and drove him into the Himalayas. That a human would be the cause of Ravana`s downfall was Kubera`s curse I think. And Ravana finally getting `moksha` was a good thing for Ravana, not a bad thing as you imply :). btw add to your list of kings who had to be removed and was sent to reign in Pataala, Mahabali of Kerala, who is currently on a return visit checking up on his subjects during Onam :).

Kabuli, beleagured heavenly janata did appeal to Shiva, even Vishnu did. His first wife Sati was Brihaspati`s granddaughter(Daksha`s daughter) who burnt herself because her father (king of gods?) didnot respect Shiva enough. And all those strategms to get him married again?? Shiva`s son Kartikeya was born to kill the asura Taraka, and let me tell you Kartikeya has a huge following in S. India(and not so much in N.India). His other son was said to be Ganesh who is worshipped all over India.

btw, if you visit Mumbai, visit the Elephanta Caves. The rock temple dates back to 9th-12th AD and the various carvings depict episodes and characters from the Shiva mythology, including his wedding and how Ravana got his name(Ravana once tried to bully Shiva by lifting Mt Kailash. Shiva put his foot down literally, and brought the mountain down on Ravana`s hand which made him scream in pain, hence the name Ravana, one who screams).

And unlike what you say, Indra does get short shrift because he is shown as a cheating jealous and insecure guy who keeps trying to disrupt other people`s penances. Varuna and Agni the other so-called `Aryan` Gods were also demoted from their central Vedic positions into `elemental` gods.

And I happen to think any late-Puranic asuras of convenience were Buddhists, not Shaivites. Around my hometown in S. Kerala, a rough statement I can make is that the local artefacts found are all Buddhist from 7th-11th centuries or so, until the Chola-style bronze natarajs make their appearance.

re: fawad79

Yeah, Yasser`s my mate...nice to hear from you too...my email is veerbhagat@hotmail.com...I`m sorry but mind repeating your question?

regards

Kabuli

Oh and as for the Veera Shaiva bit, I think people should be allowed to do what they want, in terms of their faith. There is no central authority in Hinduism (that might change if the Hindutvavaadis have their way) that decrees what is right and what is wrong. Basavanna, the Guru of the Veera Shaivas, was an extremely enlightened man for his time, and launched what I consider one of the greatest reform movements of his age...

``Going against the way of the times, the Lingayats rejected Vedic authority, caste hierarchy, the system of four ashramas, a multiplicity of Gods, animal sacrifice, karmic bondage, the existence of inner worlds, duality of God and soul``...


so if the Veera Shaivas feel that their beliefs or faith is in danger for whatever reason, then they have the right to defend themselves constitutionally. And if it means, reinventing mythologies, so what?...Its not like they are concrete anyway...I mean, they are myths....if their conscience is clear and they are not hurting anybody, then its all good, hai na?...I mean when I was in Bangalore and fractured my wrist in an accident, I went to a Catholic Hospital. For whatever reason, the patient registration form asked about my religion. I put it down as Sikh and much to my chagrin, they cut it out and wrote `Hindu` on top of it...not that I hate Hindus or anything, but I dont wanna be called something I am not...maybe the Veera Shaivas feel the same way

regards

Kabuli

Ok, first of all, my apologies to Godot...my past few posts might seem irrelevant to your write up...but I think what I have been trying to say is somehow related to Jhuria and his struggle with the society he happened to be in...Premchand must have been an extraordinarily sensitive and perceptive man...if he wasn`t so, he would not have been able to pen down Nijat...maybe it was the poverty and travails he had to go through as a young man that enabled him to empathize with the downtrodden...by the way, I liked your `On Hate` contributed to Chowk earlier, which I have only just read...and I absolutely love your resolution.

re: Sadna

I think we agree more than disagree...but our disagreements seem to be very prickly

``I think your equivalence asura==dark-skinned S.Indian, gods == fairskinned N.Indian is plain wrong.``

I agree...but I didn`t intend it as such and maybe you`ve misunderstood me...I only referred to the skin complexion of the authors of the puranas to try to say that they were of a different stock/race than the people of the South and so might be chauvinistic when writing about others...my skin is lighter than most Indians, but that doesn`t make me a god and because I am an Andhra, I definitely would not call myself an Asura :)...colour of the skin is not an issue


``And Vishnu, Ram and Krishna were all described as dark skinned just like Shiva and as far as I know, Ravana was a brahmin(son of a rishi) and fairskinned.``


Ravana might have been a Brahmin...aren`t there Brahmins in South India?...He might`ve been fairskinned too...though I do not know of anybody (as yet) claiming to have actually seen him (in every Chandamama book I can think of, he is shown as being dark and with cute little tusks coming out of the corners of his mouth)...if I`m not mistaken sage Agastya is usually talked of as South Indian too...I can`t remember who the Gurudev of the Asuras was, but I think he too was a Brahmin. Vishnu (and by way of corollary, Ram and Krishna) might`ve been dark (something fishy about that Parasurama chap), but the point is, the Devas ran to him and not Shiva whenever they comitted doo doo, which was, quite often...inspite of this, Indra and his gang being Aryan deities, get the benefit of the doubt for their numerous wrongs, but not so in the case of the Asuras who just happen to be live mostly to the South of the Vindhyas...Ravana might have been the son of a Brahmin, but the tale sung by the rishis to Vishnu was that he was an Asura disturbing their yagnas (He is also shown as the leader of the Asuras) and the Devas were just simply sh!t scared of his power....and please if Ravana is an Asura for his arrogance, what about the arrogance, jealousy, lust, hatred etc of Indra and his minions?...shouldn`t they too have been given `moksha`?...but surprisingly, their wrongs are forgiven and whats more, defended in the puranas.

``Neither have I ever come across `S.Indians` as opposed to `N.Indians` as separate entities in any mythology``

The geographical entity of Aryavrata usually ends at the Vindhyas...all land to the south of the Vindhyas is considered wild and unchartered and inhabited by dangerous Rakshasas and Vanaras (Vaali was dangerous to Ram, so he was eliminated)

By the way, nobody explains as to why Ram`s army in his colossal fight against Ravana is depicted as that of monkeys and beasts...no disrespect to monkeys and all, but I don`t see Bush calling Musharraf a monkey, at least not in public

``According to tradition narrated even in the Ramayana, Ravana was an excellent king, an accomplished scholar and musician(with the composition of Sanskrit hymns to Shiva sung even today ascribed to his authorship while Ram is never mentioned for his scholarship or artistic accomplishments) Ravana`s wife Mandodari was supposed to be virtuous and one of the world`s five most beautiful women. Ravana
s subjects(and numerous wives) were described as happy and prosperous.``

As a descendant of ``Asuras``, I`ll drink to that :)...and Mandodari is one of the Satis too, not to mention her invention of Chaturanga... she is the daughter of the King of the nether world, worshippers of Hari/Vishnu and fiercely anti-Asura...but she falls in love with Ravana and elopes with him. And my point precisely about Ravana with regards to his rule over his people. He was loved, but had to be eliminated (like Vaali, who too was loved) because he was too powerful. Yes,he does kidnap a woman against her wish, but doesn`t Indra trick a rishi`s wife into sleeping with him?...and instead of Indra getting the cane, the woman gets cursed, turning into a stone !!!



But after all, this is only mythology. And not a precise one at that. Ramcharitmanas is quite different from Valmiki`s Ramayana. And so are the thousand year old translations of the Ramayana into Telugu and other South Indian languages. Many inconsistencies in all of them. What is important is how they`ve shaped or influenced their societies. I will not deny that there are many inspiring stories in the Ramayana inspite of its racist and sexist overtones. (The same goes for the Mahabharata inspite of its blatant caste discrimination in the case of Ekalavya and Karna). The story of Sabari, the low caste hermit in the Ramayana; and Krishna`s friendship with his poor pundit classmate are my personal favourites. The sad part is, Hindus believe that the events in their mythology actually happened. Which is impossible if you take the religious texts at their word. It is well know that time is divided into Yugas (Treta, Dwapara, Kali etc) and each in turn runs into dozens of thousands of years. Either Hindus have been freakishly living on this planet far too longer than others or the texts are wrong. I wish the puranas and other constituents of the Hindu mythology are appreciated by Indians (all Indians, much like Greeks and Italians today) for whatever redeeming value they have and not be treated as historical grounds for pulling down the religious places of minorities. And also call a spade, a spade. But I guess it is a question of conscience and is thus personal. But the operative word there is conscience.

Inspite of all that sadna, I must admit that Rama is considered a deity and loved by people in the South, even in Rayalseema :)...They do consider him chikna and a sissy vis-a-vis Ravana but what the heck...I was born to my parents when my father was practicing in this area called Vonti Mitta, the size of a mandal in Rayala Seema...the only doctor the poverty stricken people of the region could afford to go to (he didn`t charge them for consultation)...inspite of the extreme underdevelopment and arid nature of the region, there exists a magnificent temple in the middle of the place...This place is HUGE and it is a wonder that hardly anybody knows about it outside of the region...I mean, it has the works, columns of pillars running all around the temple, humongous bells on both sides of the entrance, gates on all four sides and all of it made of solid granite. I think it is a symbol of the region`s power and prosperity of the time when the Rayas ruled much of South India, unlike today when the region is given stepmotherly treatment by the state govt. And I think Pankaj will be glad to know that it is dedicated to Ram and his consort. It is also the temple where my parents got married.

regards

Kabuli

Just to add a note that Veera Shaiva folks are not the only folks who refer to Shiva as Ishwara.

It seems to be a regional thing. Vashnavites in Karnataka also refer to Shiva as Ishwara... without the connotation of him being the One God.

ps kabuli

arent you prem of prem-yasser fame ? whats up with being an afghan? nice to see you again

kabul,

kabul interesting posts i think you studies in religion have served you well

how are you?

question

how do the traiditon of kashmiri pandits differ from other hindus if they do at all are all kashmriri hindus pandits?

sadna

``According to tradition narrated even in the Ramayana, Ravana was an excellent king, an accomplished scholar and musician(with the composition of Sanskrit hymns to Shiva sung even today ascribed to his authorship while Ram is never mentioned for his scholarship or artistic accomplishments)``

A nice post. Let me add that after the battle was over, legend also says Lord Ram also asked his younger brother Lakshaman to go to Ravana to learn from him the art of administration of the state. The character of Lord Ram, as portrayed in Ramayana amply testifies that he had a very good understanding of human character and qualities. That is why it angers me when people out of sheer ignorance start weaving this racial theory, as far as the basic tenets of Hinduism are concerned.

Kabuliwallah
Yes, and lets not forget the predominance of Shaivist traditions in Kashmir and Nepal (and perhaps in parts of Bengal/Assam ?). And we havenot looked at the importance given to metaphysical symbolisms associated with Shiva as either the foremost among the Rudras(destroyers) or the Shiva-Shakti concept.

``there is a significant bias against Southeners in the puranas, them being portrayed as meat eating and intoxicant consuming``

How about all those romantic stories about a king meeting a beautiful damsel while hunting deer or pheasants/boars, if not to eat then what? And Sita got abducted when she sent Ram after a deer for its hide ? My impression was different, namely that all rajas were supposed to be non-veg.

I think your equivalence asura==dark-skinned S.Indian, gods == fairskinned N.Indian is plain wrong. Neither have I ever come across `S.Indians` as opposed to `N.Indians` as separate entities in any mythology.

And Vishnu, Ram and Krishna were all described as dark skinned just like Shiva and as far as I know, Ravana was a brahmin(son of a rishi) and fairskinned.
As far as bias against /for Ravana, Ram and Ravana are both described as both devout worsippers of Shiva in the Ramayana, Ram performing a major Shiva pooja at a crucial point in the story. Its mentioned elsewhere that Ravana was a favored devotee who would play the veena while Shiva danced the tandava.

According to tradition narrated even in the Ramayana, Ravana was an excellent king, an accomplished scholar and musician(with the composition of Sanskrit hymns to Shiva sung even today ascribed to his authorship while Ram is never mentioned for his scholarship or artistic accomplishments) Ravana`s wife Mandodari was supposed to be virtuous and one of the world`s five most beautiful women. Ravana
s subjects(and numerous wives) were described as happy and prosperous.

These glowing descriptions about the `villian` included in a story meant to glorify Ram can only be to emphasize Ravana`s almost only(and fatal)asuric quality which was his arrogance in indulging his desires. And despite all this, when he died he attained `moksha`!

So I think good and bad have a lot more nuance in Indian mythologies than the oversimplified overheated black-and-white political ideologies of today can capture.

In my view the Vaishnavite and Shaivite traditions (and perhaps previously the` proto-Vedic`, Vedic and `aboriginal` traditions) if they were ever totally separate, made peace and integrated into mutually-reinforcing philosophical/metaphysical symbolisms and also began to pay mutual respect in folk traditions a long long time ago. Trying to seperate out these long- interwoven traditions simply to serve the pushes-and-pulls of the modern day population just doesnot make any sense.

I suspect the issue is that Veershaivas have an ongoing movement to declare themselves nonHindu so that they can have control over their temples and educational institutions. Thats a strong motive to construct a mythology of separation where none exists. This proves that the sooner India abolishes religious-specific references in the Constitution, the better it will be for all of us :).


Godot
Sorry for straying from topic at hand.

re: sadna # 37

Not to mention various shrines of quite significant importance to Hindus in the north like Somnath, Amarnath etc...bhang drinking usually associated with Siva (I`ve never seen it done in the south among adults, though its now a fad among college students in Bangalore)...the cult of Mata (usually related to Siva) in the north, even in Punjab...you are absolutely right and I knew my theory was full of loopholes...inspite of all this, it has to be said or maybe its just my perception that there is a significant bias against Southeners in the puranas...them being portrayed as meat eating and intoxicant consuming (despite the popular notion that South Indians are by and large vegetarians, I think that on average, Southeners eat more meat than Northerners...at least in Andhra and Kerala...you just have to look at the menu in an Andhra restaurant...not that meat eating is incredibly healthy or that the animals are too thrilled about it) Rakshasas (here let me say that in the past too Southeners probably ate meat...but in juxtaposition to the vegetarian Brahmins and Amrit drinking Devas, they are depicted as Rakshasas and barbaric for consuming meat and getting wasted)...maybe it is for this reason that Ravana, though he dies in the end and is considered evil and Ram is worshipped as a deity in the South, still Ravana is depicted (at least this is the case in the Rayalseema region of Andhra where my family is from) as macho, handsome and noble...and Ram is depicted as a wimp (for sending his wife to live in exile) and a coward (for killing Vaali through treachery)...funny also isn`t it that brave soldiers who gave their all for Rama`s cause are depicted as monkeys, bears, wild beasts literally and slaves figuratively...of course it is just mythology, and I treat it as such...but just maybe it is an insight into the relations between North and South India in the past and maybe even to some extent today.

regards

Kabuli

Kabuliwallah #34
``And Asuras in puranas written by light skinned Brahmins who I presume were North Indians, usually meant non-Aryan civilizations in the south``

Thats a tidy theory (Shiva was a pro-asura extrapolated to a pro-non-lightskinned deity) but you are drawing too simplistic a conclusion about a huge and varied tradition. For instance, take every North Indian marriage ceremony today(as far as I know) in which the N. Indian brahmin priest cites as a part of every wedding`s ceremonial invocations, the Shiva-Parvati marriage as the ideal marriage.

Also, its still a widespread custom among unmarried women in both North and South Indian to especially worship Shiva to ensure a happy marriage in future. And how about plenty of N.Indian folklore full of Bhole nath and his in-law problems. Ramcharitmanas by Tuslidas too is written as a narration of Ram`s story by Shiva to Parvati and the story of the Shiva-Parvati marriage is described at length in Baalkanda(This wedding btw, was pre-ordained so that a tough condition could be fulfilled, namely a son of Iswhara could be born to kill an asura.).

Re: Prem, #2

It`s my pleasue!

Re: afrasiyab, #4

If time permits.

Re: ana, #6

Thanks, ana. Yes, you`re right. It`s good for Dukkhi. He`s better-off dead. Screw you, he says to the repressive system, I`m outta here.

Re: dost-mittar, #7

Thank you, dost.

Your point about Ishwar is well taken. In this translation, my inserting the word god with a small ``g`` before Ishwar was due to my uncertainty about the rank of Ishwar in the Hindu hierarchy of supra-human entities.

On the same note, in my writings and translations, I try to be as universal as possible. I`d like my writings to appeal to as diverse a group as possible. I do not want the readers, therefore, to struggle with a word that they may not recognize. I realize that`s not 100 percent possible in a translation from another culture, but I try to get as close to it as I can; something that Urstruly has recognized in my translations. Hence, in my translations, without a break in the tempo of the story, you`d see ``explanatory`` words before those desi words that must be retained in translations that I fear some readers may not recognize or understand.

I wish you`d found out about the well situation you mentioned in your post. How that issue was resolved can give an insight as to how India is being developed at the root level.

Re: sac, #10

Thanks. Will do.

Re: temporal, #13

No, t, I`m very open to criticism. I`ve been criticized all my life; some friendly, some outright hostile. I`m used to it. However, I think I`m a better person today because of it, not inspite of it.

You, or anyone at Chowk who wants to, can write me at godotatchowk@yahoo.com. I`m sure to drop a line to you. Meanwhile, you could do the same. Let us embark on a long journey of a good friendship.

PS: None of the adjectives, -ji/Bhaijan/mian, applies to me. When you meet me, which you will, you`ll see why not.

Re: semipreciousme, #14

Thanks!!!

Re: saminashah, #16

Thanks, samina. I didn`t know Satyajit Ray made a movie of this same story. Now, like you, I want to watch it.

Re: Urstruly, #17

You have spoken to me like a true and a sincere friend; and that`s what you are to me.

Re: Apparition, #18

You are an inspiration. Thanks.

Re: Pankaj, #20, #30

First, thank you for your kind words.

Now, to your criticism (for which I thank you also)

1. It`s very true that the word ``assswhole`` is generally not uttered by women, especially a Punditini, in the story it was uttered by the Pundit, a man.

I could not figure out a better English word for ``susra`` in the story than ``assshole.`` Any recommendations?

2. That was a bad error. It should not have happened. Bad editing on my part.

3. That was a literal translation. I had a tough time with this one.

4. See 1 above.

5. Also very close to literal. If there was a subtlety meant in the Pundit washing his face and hands in the original story, I missed it.

Re: scout, #22

I think you liked it, scout. In that case, thanks!!!

Re: Ras, #24

Thanks, Ras!

Re: Tidbit, #25

``for once i can claim that ive read something in the original language``

That was a great compliment. Thank you so much.

Re: dost-mittar, #26, Tidbiot #25 and #29

It`s true that the Urdu title ``Nijat`` could be translated to English ``Salavation``, ``Deliverence,`` or ``Release.`` These English words, however, are of philosophical nature and convey more of a passive approach to a problem, and which also seem to indicate an implicit acceptance of a worldly system as ``fate,`` as reprehensible a system it might be.

My ``Good-riddance`` (I don`t know how and why the small ``r`` became capitalized at Chowk) for ``Nijat`` is an angry, aggressive, and indignant rejection of that repressive system. In the scene where the Pundit is rooting for Dukkhi and Dukkhi is relentlessly hitting that log just before his death, I see a very angry Dukkhi. I see a Dukkhi screaming at Death to come and get him, to embrace him. He`d enough. He cannot take this humiliation and cruelty anymore. He`s better off dead. Death is the only freedom for him; from this bondage, this chain, this suffocation. Good-riddance, I say. Good for Dukkhi.

Re: Banjaara, #27

Thanks, Banjaara. I`m sure to ``upgrade`` this translation. Your very good suggestions will come in handy then.

Re: DrDr, #28

I don`t know what to say...except...Thanks!!!

Is your alias from Robert Palmer`s song? If it is, then very clever!

re: Dost-Mittar # 33

Sat Sri Akal and Thanx. I`ve been busy with studies and have not been able to participate on chowk more actively. Inshallah, will do more in future.

I have this `not necessarily concrete by any means` theory that Siva is widely popular and is worshipped coloquially as Eswar (Eswarudu or other derivatives) especially in the Veera Shaiva community of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu because throughout Hindu mythology Siva is seen as defending the interests of the asuras, though they end on the losing side eventually. And Asuras in puranas written by light skinned Brahmins who I presume were North Indians, usually meant non-Aryan civilizations in the south. Add to this his representation as a wild god, living in the mountains, protector of animals, rubbing ash over his body etc. imagery and it gives one a feeling that in Hindu mythology though Siva is important, he is somewhat of a brute and of more ancient and uncivilized origin. Maslan, though he is one of the trinity, because of his affiliation with Asuras/Southern peoples, the poor chap gets bad pr in terms of body odour and such. And the very fact that Southeners refer to Siva as Eswar (One God in Sanskrit)maybe underlines the argument that to them, he is The one God...one that would be argued pretty strongly by the Veera Shaivas of Karnataka and followers of Siva and his family in Tamil Nadu. Just musing...I`m sure one will find many flaws in it

regards

Kabuli

re: dost mittar # 7

``minor point: Ishwar is the Hindu equivalent of Allah/God and not the name of any Hindu god``

True, but in South India, in Telugu at least, Ishwar generally denotes Siva

regards

Kabuli

Godot

Apart from the corrections banjaara suggested, you might also like to rework on following sentences,

1. “It was that as$hole’s bad luck,” said the Pundit, defeated.``

Usually the words such as ``as$hole`` are never used by women and that too of upper cast. I dont remember the exact word in the story but it could be ``mua`` that means ``ill-fated`` or something.

2. ``Gond: “Did they gave you any thing to eat,``

Grammatical error. It should be ``did they give...``

3. ``That’s why they tell me, if I go to eat at low-caste people, those people become arrogant.”

``

May consider reworking.

4. ``Pundit: “That a$shole was an untouchable. These people don’t even know how to eat properly``

Once again you may consider revising the word ``a$shole``.

5. ``The priest, Pundit Ghasi Ram, worshipped the god Ishwar. He’d get ready for Ishwar the moment he’d wake up. ``

Bit redundant. Also reads very artificial. Another thing should be noted that the tone in which the Pundit`s daily ablutions are described has a subtle humorous/sarcastic touch. You would read the full blown version of this sarcasm in Premchand`s stories such as ``Pandit Moteram Shashtri ki diary``.

dost-mittar: ``As someone pointed out, `deliverance`` would be a better substitute in the context of the story. I could also thing of ``release``, especially if you think of the Hindi/Hindu expression ``Gati``. ``

yup that sounds much better...at the risk of sounding stupid, wat does ``gati`` exactly mean? I`m guessing release in the context of the story but still...

rgds,

Samina

Fine translation. Lousy original!

Fine translation. Lousy original!

Godot

Thanks for a wonderful job.Some unsolicited advice... ``gar qabool uftad,zah-e izz-o sharf``.

Thukrana should be Thakuraana

Thukrani........... Thakuraani

Mehweh-leaf........Mahuva-leaf

Punditni...........Panditaayin

Unpaid work........Be-gaar

Ishwar-god.........Eeshwar (means god)

The mahuva fruit which has a cloyingly sweet smell

on ripening,is used for brewing very strong drink

consumed by the poorer section of the society.

Regards.

Great read Godot...brilliantly translated...for once i can claim that ive read something in the original language =p...the whole thing flows and...well its just plain ol` well-written...out of curiosity tho...`nijaat` means `jaan churana` haina? then why `good` riddance?? why not just `riddance` or something?? keep writing...

rgds,

Samina

Class/Caste reflections via Munshi Prem Chand and the careful translation here by Godot made this a
wonderful Friday Night reading project.

Very good job in projecting the work of one of the greatest Urdu story writers/tellers ever.

Ras

I think I may have seen Kabuliwallah, when we could access the Indian tv channel from Amritsar...mostly `vintage` movies, Dost-mittar, like Mughal-e-azam, Tan Sen, nadya ke paar (not sure if that`s the title..dilip kumar and kamini kaushal), most if not all of Devanand`s movies..those were the days.. :)...Chalo, aaj phir jeenay ki tamanna hai, aaj phir marne ka irada hai. :)

sad

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you did a really good job .... i emailed this piece to everybody i know ..... i have actually become really interested in reading all these authors now in Urdu ...... thanks to your wonderful translations

Thank you Sarwar for sharing your story too .... it was BEAUTIFUL

Good work , Sir, very good work. Many many thanks to you for being kind enough to translate Munsh Premchand`s work. I will write in little detail about your work soon.

Finally got the time to read your piece. You know what I like about your translations is your ability to translate the idiomatic as well as slang urdu into English without losing the flavor of the original. You are doing a great service to both Urdu and English language; you may not realize it though, at this time. Keep up the good work; don`t worry about the number of interacts and don`t be discouraged. On an average about 2000 people read an article. This is great accomplishment and excellent opportunity to honn your skills.

Godot,

This was great. Will look into this writer and Ray`s adaptation.

Sac`s right; keep em coming!

Sarwar #12

It was nice to read the English translation of Kabuliwallah. I think Rabindranath himself also did one.

Kabuliwallah was also made into a great movie by Tapan Sinha. It had a sterling perfomance by the people who played the characters of Rahamat and Mini. Unfortunately it`s in Bengali, so very few here will be able to watch and understand.

…godot, what a depressingly good read…

Godot-ji/bhaijan/mian (take your pick):)

Yaar itnay logouN nay itnay achchay kalmaat likhaiN haiN is tarjumay kay baray maiN kay jo hum kehna chahtay haiN woh shayad ghalat samjha ja`aye ga ya ghaire munasib hoga...

...please keep on introducing litrature from other languages...

...aur `gar tu bura na maanay`...drop in a line if you feel like: ttemporal@lycos.com

regards,

temporal

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This story was made into a very touching film by Satyajit Ray. It was called Sadgati (Deliverence) after the original Hindi name of the story.

Godot:

Great job as usual. You`ve gotten really good at translations. keep `em coming.

later

-sac

Hey Sudalaikkannu.

Where the fcuk are you?

Here is an opportunity for you tell us why you need quota seats in professional colleges and government jobs.

Be sure you quote profusely from Doctor Artist Leader and The Great Intellectual. And Father Big Man.

Ra Ravishankar. Feel free to drop some kaka.

mithuna #3

[Was this made into movie (maybe a TV-movie)? ]

It was `Sadgati` by Satyajit Ray in 1981. Produced by Doordarshan as a TV film. In addition to Om Puri and Mohan Agashe as you correctly mention, it also included the late Smita Patil as Jhuria. This film remains one of Ray`s classics.

The title actually means `Salvation` or `Deliverance`.

Godot,

I really liked this. It reads well from beginning to end..and having read this, I really want to read `nijat` in Urdu now.

This part about noone being willing to collect Dukkhi`s body reminds me of Sophocles` Antigone...Antigone wants to collect the body of her brother and is forbidden by laws. She acts according to the Law (capital l, what she understands to be the law of love), and not the laws (small l..of a tyrant king)..and here we have two groups locked in this duel over a dead man`s body..`it is not written in the scriptures`..` Blind allegiance to laws...and no respect for the dead.

Vaise iss kahani mein kis ne nijat haasil ki? in death, Dukkhi did..from a repressive system.

Looking forward to more translations :)