What Went Wrong With Devdas

You`re all just... Punjabi lovers- ugh. Just felt like saying that :)

Question for SameerStudSaab: Why`d you leave your blessed Punjab with which you share such a strong cultural affinity and so much louv to come to the USA ?

Peace.

Sameer sahib:

I think there is a movement afoot amongst prominent Punjabis in Pakistan to assert their heritage. Last year I remember the famous Shoaib Hashmi telling a large group of Punjabis in a very emotional manner that their language is dying becuase of disuse. He asked how many of their kids today knew what the word ``kauli`` meant.

The dangers of a majority trying to reclaim its heritage in a multi-ethinic society like Pakistan are way too many for these movements to take-off but who knows.

later

-sac

Sameer,

re: your question

I dont know. A confluence of partition hysteria and violence, the myth of ``starting over`` and having a better chance at secure economic success, the assured identity of Islam, the detachment from the country that they were a part of but could not stay in...these are all powerful motivators. It would be interesting to study how many mohajir famillies chose to study in the West shortly after migrating to Pakistan; arguably many of these individuals have spent more time in India than in Pakistan...which in itself is one way of negotiating the traumatic history of Partition.

ana...helllo dear...i hope u get this before u fly, time to contemplate on plane ya..i have been working overtime on the grapevine...sameersaab is incredibly sexy but horrifyingly shy they say..you can thank me later..now ana, sometimes we need to take things in our own hands...im not very good at being cryptic am i? nevermind that..he knows everything (budhists, hair growth, enron, daler mehindi, scotch and elephants being stoned to name just a few) and is such a lovely little gentleman..he`s too well mannered no?..only bad thing is little overobsessed with this punjabi business..lakin poor dear is giving you lessons already...now dont get upset and tell me off or threaten pittaee, im only trying to get two warm souls to you know, meet...or does this only show how utterly bored and useless i have become? u shouldnt answer that ana i mean well..you know that...lol..this is too much fun..im not checking this board for a week

kisses!!!!!

sameersaab

you will ofcourse excuse the impertinence..waisae i know aap kae dil mae laddoo phhoot rahae hain..lesson 1, lesson 2 hain? sameersaab itnee pyaree aur spirited aur mentally khoobsoorat aurtain duniya mae bohat kumn hain...khuda kae liyae kuch kar lain warna pakihunk jaisaa koee gadha hee hamari ana ko phassa lae ga...

let the pathrao start

samina

i am loving your poetry postings..kiss nae socha thaa aisa din aega..refering ofcourse to erica jong when she says proverbs dilute grief and not the poetry...this for you :)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Vanishings

One day it will vanish,

how you felt when you were overwhelmed

by her, soaping each other in the shower,

or when you heard the news

of his death, there in the T-Bone diner

on Queens Boulevard amid the shouts

of short-order cooks, Armenian, oblivious.

One day one thing and then a dear other

will blur and though they won`t be lost

they won`t mean as much,

that motorcycle ride on the dirt road

to the deserted beach near Cadiz,

the Guardia mistaking you for a drug-runner,

his machine gun in your belly—

already history now, merely your history,

which means everything to you.

You strain to bring back

your mother`s face and full body

before her illness, the arc and tenor

of family dinners, the mysteries

of radio, and Charlie Collins,

eight years old, inviting you

to his house to see the largest turd

that had ever come from him, unflushed.

One day there`ll be almost nothing

except what you`ve written down,

then only what you`ve written down well,

then little of that.

The march on Washington in `68

where you hoped to change the world

and meet beautiful, sensitive women

is choreography now, cops on horses,

everyone backing off, stepping forward.

The exam you stole and put back unseen

has become one of your stories,

overtold, tainted with charm.

All of it, anyway, will go the way of icebergs

come summer, the small chunks floating

in the Adriatic until they`re only water,

pure, and someone taking sad pride

that he can swim in it, numbly.

For you, though, loss, almost painless,

that Senior Prom at the Latin Quarter—

Count Basie and Sarah Vaughan, and you

just interested in your date`s cleavage

and staying out all night at Jones Beach,

the small dune fires fueled by driftwood.

You can`t remember a riff or a song,

and your date`s a woman now, married,

has had sex as you have

some few thousand times, good sex

and forgettable sex, even boring sex,

oh you never could have imagined

back then with the waves crashing

what the body could erase.

It`s vanishing as you speak, the soul-grit,

the story-fodder,

everything you retrieve is your past,

everything you let go

goes to memory`s out-box, open on all sides,

in cahoots with thin air.

The jobs you didn`t get vanish like scabs.

Her good-bye, causing the phone to slip

from your hand, doesn`t hurt anymore,

too much doesn`t hurt anymore,

not even that hint of your father, ghost-thumping

on your roof in Spain, hurts anymore.

You understand and therefore hate

because you hate the passivity of understanding

that your worst rage and finest

private gesture will flatten and collapse

into history, become invisible

like defeats inside houses. Then something happens

(it is happening) which won`t vanish fast enough,

your voice fails, chokes to silence;

hurt (how could you have forgotten?) hurts.

Every other truth in the world, out of respect,

slides over, makes room for its superior.

Stephen Dunn

ana: Here is Lesson 2.

Punjabi women use certain idioms like ``tut paiNey, agg lagNey and chulle wich paiNey``. They have basically same meaning. They show temporary anger with loved ones especially kids and friends. Once the anger subsides, the love returns in full.

Sometime Punjabi is almost Urdu. For example, the following verses from Munir Niazi.

kujh unj vee rahwaN aukhiaN san

kujh gal wich ghamaN da toq vee see

kujh shehr dey log vee zalim san

kujh mainu maraN da shok vee see

[Urdu translation:

kucch waisey bhi rastey mushkil they

kucch gardan maiN ghamoN ka toq (phanda) bhi tha

kucch shehr kay log bhi zalim they

kucch mujhey marney ka shoq bhi tha]

Yesterday I used an idiom, chaRhdi kalaaN. It is mostly used by Sikhs, meaning high spirit (by the grace of god).

Women use dhola, Ranjhna, dildaara, chan makhnaN, sohneya, for their boyfriend. What else/

All right, here is surprise test for your skills.

Q 1

ker gayuN kee merey naal hath vey

merey magruN vichoRia tuN lath vey

(Hint: This is Sufi poetry sung by NFAK. This poetry is by a famous Sufi B. S. Bagga and he is metaphorically using his lover`s name as VichoRia)

Q 2

kulli nee faqir dee vichuN, allah hoo, allah hoooo, allah hooooooooooo da awaza aawe.

This song was originally sung by NooraN and recently by Gurdas Mann.

SameerJB #127,

thank you professor sahib for that detailed explanation.

Ref. Fawad`s Post

``c`mon take some lessons from rsaxena witty rejoinders have to be just that witty``

If I ever run into that wiseass somewhere, I will be sure to smack him!

Cheers

Lucy

Harpreet

[- You could speak Japanese to me and it would sound wonderful.You teach me Urdu first :)]

Konichiwa! :D

Oye mere toote phoote Urdu naal ki karna? Jinnoun Ghalib/Hali paRR`n anda hai, uday naal gal kar!

Sayonara! :D

Sameer,

thanks for the entertaining punjabi lesson. Ustad ji, phir kadon?

SameersJD;{ Sometime I wonder why did Mohajirs decide to distance from their 400 million strong cultural kin. I do not see that kind of bonding as Punjabis display. Why they had to invent fantasy of a distinct group, practicing mixed culture of Hindi, Central Asia and Middle East? }

There are many reasons I can think of: Wanting to live in a separate muslim homeland, wanting a better future, wanting to preserve their culture- may not be good reasons, but I can think of many, can you not think of one ?

The worst atrocities during partition were in the Punjab i.e. Punjabis vs. punjabi. I hope that is not your example of the bonding that punjabis display.

Samina: One has to make a distinction between political, economic and cultural sides of an ethnic related discussion. When I mention of seige against Punjabi language, it is strictly cultural. Politically in Pakistan, Punjabis dominate bureaucracy, military and politics due to their numbers. They are 90 millions out of a population of 140 millions. Economically, Punjabis are dominant but not to the extent of political domination. The per capita income of Punjabis, though, will be lower than Mohajirs because of higher level of education and mostly urban living of Mohajirs. Despite the economic dominance of these two in Pakistan, average Mohajir or Punjabi does not benefit due to class structure of our societies.

The unhappiness of Mohajirs is due to erosion of political power and unhappiness of Punjabis is due to erosion of their culture. Mohajirs were on the forefront of Pakistani movement and enjoyed significant leverage in politics until the assassination of Liaquat Ali Khan. Since then, their position is continuously eroding.

Mohajirs are not unhappy with erosion of their culture because it is not happening. Lahore publishes more urdu literature, makes more Urdu movies, most educated Punjabis know how to speak Urdu and more often speak Urdu and so on.

Harpreet/ Hari Inder: The position of Urdu in Punjab is totally linked to religion. Punjabi Muslim intellectuals adopted it for creating literature, British imposed it on Punjab in 1880 to please mostly Muslim population and Pakistan accepted it due to Islam and TNT. I love Urdu but not as much as I love Punjabi. Culturally speaking, how can I love Urdu more than Punjabi when I do not like to be called a Muslim, does not consider TNT important except that it was a political ploy and not proud of British Raj? Politically speaking, I accept partition and would like Pakistan to survive and succeed as secular/ liberal state with just society. Is there any role in politics for Urdu? My hunch is that its imposition creates more problems than offering any solution. It must be left to people what language they like to speak and what means they adopt to communicate with each other. Does Urdu help in improving literacy level, particularly among women. Not at all and nor does Punjabi, Sindhi, Pushtu or Balochi. It requires the backing of state to improve literacy level instead of wasting efforts and energies into promoting a single language.

On the Indian side, it is more political than cultural, nevertheless, cultural siege is there too considering resistance of Punjabi Hindus to consider their language what it is. The bulk of the economic might of Khatri Hindus is just not there for Punjabi culture. Except for Raj Babbar, nobody from Bollywood takes any serious interest in Punjabi. Many of the Punjabi artists hesitate to speak Punjabi even in interviews on Punjabi radios. Almost all the Punjabi singers are Sikhs whereas in India, Punjabi Hindus outnumber Sikh Punjabis. Almost all-Punjabi radio stations in Diaspora are Sikhs and none Hindu or Muslim, although Punjabi Hindu and Muslim population in Diaspora is significant with many very rich people.

It has been decades since Indian Punjab was divided. There is absolutely no political reason for Hindus to keep on denying Punjabi as their language of choice or considering it an accent of Hindi. Hindi is spoken by 400 million Indians and is not threatened if 30-40 million Indian Punjabis decide to call their language Punjabi.

Punjabi culture really needs Punjabi Hindus to come back into their fold. Without Hindus, despite industrious Sikhs, Punjabi Muslims of Pakistan can not provide the intellectual, liberal/ secular thoughts and cosmopolitan component to Punjabi culture. The Muslim culture of Punjabis will not be able to provide the intellectual core to Punjabi culture for even 100 years. Pakistani Punjabis are ready and willing to follow but can not lead Punjabi culture. The religious practices and its importance make them far less enthusiastic in Punjabi culture. In Punjab, not a single Punjabi General, bureaucrat, industrialist, feudal or politician is patronizing Punjabi language right now. The drought of cultural ignorance and indifference to Punjabi culture has too deeply afflicted Punjabi elite in Pakistan to overcome it anytime soon. On top of that Muslim cultural practices is an impediment to producing an intellectual core sufficient to sustain and promote a culture that is in competition, in many ways, with Muslim culture. I hope Indian Hindus think and rejoin their cultural kin at cultural level without influencing their politics.

Veeresh: The success of Punjabi music is really no substitute for the exit of Punjabi Hindus from contributions to Punjabi culture. Why hath thou stopped producing Shiv Kumar Batalvi? Are there Bengalis, Tamils, Marathas, Gujratis etc, who prefer to consider their language Hindi and not Bengali, Tamil, Marathi, Gujrat respectively?

Samina: Back to you. I see no paradox in discussing culture transcending political and religious boundaries. In 1947, land was divided and not languages. People were divided on the basis of religion, not on the bais of language/ culture. Sometime I wonder why did Mohajirs decide to distance from their 400 million strong cultural kin. I do not see that kind of bonding as Punjabis display. Why they had to invent fantasy of a distinct group, practicing mixed culture of Hindi, Central Asia and Middle East?

lucy

hmmmm.........c`mon take some lessons from rsaxena witty rejoinders have to be just that witty........vulgar references to genital parts become old and tired like yours ............references to guys penises` i mean.........loool

have a nice day.........

fawad

dost-mittar & Ansari;

- I will let you know my thoughts on the film.

ana;

- You could speak Japanese to me and it would sound wonderful.

You teach me Urdu first :)

Sameer;

[Badshaho, Punjabi naal dushmani saryaN di hey, koi kalley PakistaniaN di naeeN.]

- True!

I suppose you are right, and my vision is skewed by coming from a diasporic Sikh community. Over here, Punjabi is the number one language of choice and people go overboard to preserve and speak it (amongst the Sikhs). Even many Pakistanis speak it as their first tongue. Its just the way I was brought up, to think of it as the first language. Even when I go to India, you know, I have never spent more than ten nights in Delhi in my whole life, its straight to Punjab, and unlike Hari Inder, I never sensed a preponderant drift to Hindi there. In fact,like in England, there is a self-sustaining culture of the language, television stations and newspapers and music, all my cousins studying Punjabi literature at school, and so on. I just think that Punjabi has never been thought as a formalised language before, and its not a bad thing, multi-lingualism is an asset, it can enrich language as well. Everyone spoke and understands Hindi of course, but I didnt sense retreat, and if there is neglect of it, it is certainly not active denigraton as a language. (For example, like fawad and ana said, deliberately not teaching it to Punjabi children)

But I may be wrong!

I agree with you about Delhi. Those census figures are strange. One thing I liked about Delhi is just how Punjabi a city it is, at least the parts I have stayed in and seen. All the street signs written in Gurmukhi, the noise and chatter and bustle in the streets and markets.

-h-

Harpeet,

As a child of UPI and CPI mohajir descent, I`ve noticed an interesting ambivalence towards Punjabis in my family. On one hand, we are aware that they are the power brokers in Pakistan even though mohajirs ended up being a highly educated segment of Pakistan (also the idea that females were to be educated equally) and have contributed to Pakistan greatly...but still considered not as Pakistani as indigenous Punjabis, Sindhis, Balouchis....perhaps someone would like to develop this theme.

My first cousin is married to a Punjabi guy who is quite rooted in his family and community in England. He was quite a hit at our cousin`s wedding during the bhangra hits....

Hari Inder, Ana, Sameer . . . Punjabi discussion . . . then why does Punjabi Bhangra-Rap-disco-pop etc etc score so heavily on the popularity charts? (Sorry to butt in, but from another generation, when Punjabi was the language in DTC then DTU buses, se leke today when OK the muzac may be Punjabi but the lingua is patios . . .)

vadhee jao, vadhee jao.

Lucy since you r from South meaning Madras ....& you claim you r not Malabarian fake Shankar

ttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?artid=19880634

100 kids undergo burial ritual in Tamil Nadu

AFP [ THURSDAY, AUGUST 22, 2002 7:24:44 PM ]

CHENNAI: More than 100 children were buried alive for about a minute as part of a ritual to appease two Hindu goddesses in a village in Tamil Nadu, a priest said on Thursday.

``More than 8,000 girls and young men have gone through this ritual of live burial at this temple in the last 400 years and we have not had a single mishap recorded,`` Raj said.

Children, wrapped in cloths dipped in turmeric water, were brought by parents in a procession to the beating of drums and accompanied by male and female priests.

To take part in the ritual, girls should not have attained puberty while boys needed to be unmarried and usually in the age group of four to 20.



Do you find this disturbing? Isn`t this traumatic for the children? How come this custom continue? What do you think?

always,

T

Ana

Even in India, punjabis like to say that their language is hindi. I have seen people from areas like Amritsar trying to speak Hindi in their heavy punjabi accents and the result is neither Hindi nor Punjabi. Punjabi is surviving inspite of the punjabi people. Every singer, every writer, graviates towards other languages as soon as they have some recogintion.

Punjabis love every thing that is not punjabi. Like they say ``Ghar do jogi jogra, bahar da jogi sidh`