Action To Support Displaced Community in Gujrat

God Bless Bilal Sahib. Never really had the chance to interact with him but it was a pleasure to read his posts and articles.

I don`t want this to be taken wrongly but I`m genuinely glad that in death he`s found his peace.

Umer M.

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Fuzair #200: It is very sad to hear about Bilal`s death. May his soul rest in peace.

Ylh has posted his favorite Bilal Ahmed`s text on Pakistan on another board. I had not had the opportunity to interact with him, but Ahmed Sahib seems to be gentle and just person.

My condolences to his family and Chowkies.

May Allah rest Prof. Bilal`s soul in eternal peace - and bestowes upon his family the courage to overcome the grief and pain of their loss. Prof. Bilal will be missed for a long time.

I`m very sorry to hear about Bilal Ahmed`s demise. He will be remembered and missed for his saintly disposition, for his well-informed posts and for being patient and inclusive in all his interactions.

He is the one who very kindly and politely replied to my very first post on chowk almost 3 years ago and he continued to show that kind politeness later as if he was genuinely pleased to interact and hear one`s opinion however ill-thoughtout or wildly-expressed. And he was this way with everyone. I personally learnt a lot from his generous sharing of his experiences and perspectives.

He had a true teacher`s spirit in that sense and it helped that he was very well-read and well-informed. He was like an `anchor` of chowk and has been missed ever since he became ill and stopped interacting. I do hope he had a peaceful and painless time in the end.

He is before my time, but from what ive read he seems like a strong, disciplined soul.

Why Good things happen to Bad people is an important lesson from the eternal teacher: Balance.

re: Bilal sahib`s death

I feel very sad when i read this news on chowk. Bilal sahib was a thorough genleman. I only had brief interactions with him but i never saw him ever lose his composure or say anything bad to anyone. May his good soul rest in eternal peace.

May be chowk`s administrators can post some of his posts. It will be a good way to remember him.

Sridhar

re: Gujarat carnage

Looks like Modi will be history soon. SC has upheld EC`s directives to the GOI. Off you go Modi. Good riddance.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2002090305660100.htm

Sridhar

Fuzair #191,

it`s sad to hear that :(

he was a nice, intelligent interactor at Chowk.

Fuzair # 191

Nai duniya ke hangamoN mein Nasir

dabi jaati hain awaazeN puraani

Bilal sahib was one of those voices.May his soul rest in peace.amen.

Fuzair #191:


[…I just received some sad news from Ali, Prof. Bilal Ahmad`s son. Prof. Bilal passed away on Sept. 1… He was a humanist in the best sense of the term…]

i just heard this…and am immensely saddened…Bilal Ahmed whom with respect we addressed as prof. Bilal is no more…

So what?….

i remember his as civil…. to the point of being at fault…courteous… and patient…have no idea whether he could be described as a good muslim or not…that is for Allah to judge...not for us mortals...whatever we may like to believe in…and contrary to Muslim beliefs…i believe i my hearts of heart that bilal ahmed would rest in peace… for ever and more…for he never manifested any ill will to another human being…

so what i had asked earlier…the civility that prof bilal inculcated in us here will breed and live long after…i hope, i know and pray…

...privately i chastised him for being so patient and magnanimous towards unmitigated idiots here at chowk…and he would kindly and gently re-assure me that those idiots could be redeemed…wish i had half his compassion…

hazaarouN saal nargis apni baynoori pay rooti hay…

my deep condolences to his family and to those chowkies who knew him…

regards,

temporal

Dear Chowkwallahs:

I just received some sad news from Ali, Prof. Bilal Ahmad`s son. Prof. Bilal passed away on Sept. 1. His cancer had made him extremely weak and was no longer treatable.

Those of us who have been on Chowk for some time will remember Prof. Bilal as a very kind and gentle soul whose wise counsel will be missed by all who had the good fortune to have known him. Even those who disagreed with his reasoning, as on occasion I did, could not fault where his heart lay. He was a humanist in the best sense of the term.

I am sure we will all miss him greatly.

Recently commissioneer of police of banglore frustrated by inept laws of his district remarked``islamic law is the answer to crime controll``

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1020901/asp/foreign/story_1157104.asp

Pak gangrape suspects get death

6666666666666666666666666666666666

ASIM TANVEER

Chief prosecution witness Abdul Razak (second from (left) and Hazoor Baksh (right), brother of gangrape victim Mukthar Mai, at the anti-terrorism court in Dera Ghazi Khan, Pakistan. (AFP)

Dera Ghazi Khan (Pakistan), Aug. 31 (Reuters): A Pakistani anti-terrorism court today sentenced six men to death for gangraping a woman in Punjab province.

Defence lawyer Mohammad Yaqub told Reuters that eight other men were acquitted in the trial before a special anti-terrorism court in the Punjab town of Dera Ghazi Khan, whose proceedings have highlighted abuses against women in rural Pakistan.

Mukhtar Mai, the 30-year-old divorced victim of the June 22 crime, was not present when the court announced the decision amid heavy security. She told Reuters yesterday members of her family had been threatened with death if the men were convicted.

Yaqub said four men were sentenced to death for committing the rape and two others for serving on a traditional village jury that authorised the crime.

?The four rapists and two jurors have been given the death penalty and a fine of 40,000 rupees ($675) each. The remaining eight have been acquitted,? he said. ?We will appeal,? he added.

Yaqub named the four sentenced to death for the rape as brothers Allah Ditta and Abdul Khaliq, Fayyaz Hussain and Ghulam Farid. The two jurors were Faiz Bakhsh and Ramzan Bichar. All the eight acquitted had served on the jury.

Mai said she was raped by four men after approaching the traditional jury, or panchayat, in her home village of Meerawali in Punjab province to settle a dispute with a rival clan.

Mai said she went to the village jury after her 12-year-old brother Abdul Shakoor was kidnapped and sodomised by members of the rival Mastoi family as a punishment for having an illicit affair with one of their relatives.

Family honour

The jury ruled that to save Mastoi honour, Shakoor should marry the woman with whom he was linked, while Mai was to be given away in marriage to a Mastoi man.

The prosecution said that when she rejected the decision she was gangraped by four Mastoi men and made to walk home nearly naked in front of hundreds of people.

Yesterday, Mai told Reuters she and her family had been threatened with revenge if the men were convicted.

?We are receiving death threats,? she said. ?They have told us that if their four people are sentenced to death, they would kill eight of our men. Not only my family, but those who supported us are being threatened with dire consequences.?

Armed police units were stationed around Dera Ghazi Khan where hundreds of members of both families and their supporters had gathered for the verdict. Black-clad elite police commandos ringed the court house.

Copyright © 2002 The Telegraph. All rights reserved. Disclaimer | Privacy Policy | Contact Us

Conceptualised &Developed by IridiumInteracti

May be, Islamic laws can do justice...Hindu learn Finally

re:Reply #: 181

Dear Prem,

``As you know very well, we shouldn`t include all followers of Islam in that category.``

Agreed. I almost forgot i had once posted an article in chowk about a muslim cleric in India who is also a sanskrit scholar and is much sought after by other scholars. Such men, i am afraid, are in a minority.

Sridhar

Sadly this animosity in the homeland is spilling over to a new generation here in the United States. This needs to stop. From the San Francisco Chronicle (Sept.1, `02):

Rape of 15-year-old girl in Palo Alto being treated as hate crime

(09-01) 11:26 PDT PALO ALTO, Calif. (AP) --

In an attack being called a hate crime a 15-year-old girl allegedly was raped at a drug store Friday.

Palo Alto police said Sanjay Nair, 18, who is Hindu, allegedly made comments while raping the Muslim girl, leading police to label the attack a hate crime.

The attack occurred in the basement bathroom of Longs Drug Store in Palo Alto.

The girl was treated at Santa Clara Valley Medical Center before being released Saturday morning.

A manager at the store said Nair had been suspended because he had reportedly sexually harassed the girl verbally.

Nair is being held without bail in Santa Clara County Jail in San Jose on charges of false imprisonment, rape, hate crimes and sexual battery.

Afaqui,

Knowing nothing shuts the iron gates; the new love opens them.

The sound of the gates opening wakes the beautiful woman asleep.

and

The spiritual athlete often changes the color of his clothes,

and his mind remains gray and loveless.

Or he sits inside a shrine room all day

so that God has to go out and praise the rocks.

He drills holes in his ears, his beard grows enormous and matted,

people mistake him for a goat...

He goes out into wilderness areas, strangles his impulses makes himself neither male nor female....

Afaqui,

What`s all this conflict in this lunatic sphere I see?

On every horizon there is hatred and fear, I see.

and

Dont have pride in the magic of Your seducing glance,

For I have proven many times that pride does not pay.

The soul of the man with heart is alive because of love;

You`re excused if you don`t have love, but now go away!

re: rsridhar # 169

Dear Sridhar,

As you know very well, we shouldn`t include all followers of Islam in that category.

I once had the absolute privilege and honor of knowing a Muslim person who kept both Gita and Quran at the same place, and offered both texts equal honor.

True, even the Lord Upstairs, the Allah and the Ishwar, loves such people too deeply...

ref: Karakoram #158

Mullah Omar, as Hanumanji! Never! After all, no Hanuman could have done what the Mullah did to the Bamiyan Buddha (the 10th incarnation of Vishnu), being devoted as he was to Rama, Vishnu the 8th. In any case, if every person with the mind of a monkey was Hanuman, how many hanuman`s could there be?

REf: ali1 #160

Yes, the barbequeing culture has stormed India. In Punjab, Kashmir, Gujarat, Delhi, Bombay, Godhra etc. people have taken to it in a big way, roasting and filleting their neighbours with gusto. There was even a case in Delhi, a few years back, of a husband making tandoori drumsticks of his wife!

...As for me, I just wish we could all go back to our traditional vegetarianism.

-narain

re: nasah

{``Our credibility lies in staying away from the politics of elections and our strength and success lies in that.``(AP Hurriyet)

Now that is incredible!}

...hurriyet can go screw themselves...in most other countries, they would`ve been dead by now...they should be tried as a threat to national security...

``Our credibility lies in staying away from the politics of elections and our strength and success lies in that.``(AP Hurriyet)

Now that is incredible!

Dear Ajay Raina,

Would we like to look at this, also?

+++

Thu 29 August 2002

UNITED STATES/New York State



Warren Anderson, former Union Carbide CEO at the time of the world`s worst industrial disaster in Bhopal, India in 1984, has been found living a life of luxury in New York State. He is wanted in India to face charges of culpable homicide over the deaths of 20,000 people since the disaster.



He was tracked down in a matter of weeks by a UK newspaper. He has been facing charges of culpable homicide and an extradition order from the government of India for the past eleven years. He has never appeared in court to face charges for crimes in Bhopal or even to explain why his company did not apply the same safety standards at its plant in India that it operated at a sister plant in the US state of West Virginia.

``If a team of journalists and Greenpeace managed to track down India`s most wanted man in a matter of days, how seriously have the US authorities tried to find him all these years? The US has reacted swiftly on curbing the financial corporate crimes of Enron and WorldCom, but has clearly not made much of an effort to find Anderson, responsible for the deaths of 20,000 people in India,`` said Casey.

In 2001, the company shed its name by merging with Dow Chemical.



http://www.greenpeace.org/news/details?news_id=23872

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12154413&method=full&siteid=50143

Urstruly,

What is weaker than a writer who has no credibility among the community in which he writes?

A writer who ranks genocides.

Regressive/hamzad,

get a life.

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Urstruly:

As I have pointed out before, lack of female company can have serious side-effects. Instead of making up imaginary alter egos like Busharraf(who I bet won`t be around for long) maybe you should change your shower-head, eat plenty of Lithium and try to memorize Beheshti zewar.

later

-sac

P.S: You can still catalog your massive porn collection if you have any time left.....

re:Reply #: 156

narain,

Excellent post. I had a good laugh. That incidence you narrated points to the difference in perceptions between the practitioners of the 2 religion.

Sridhar

``You two hags are acting like a pair of a meanspirited `saas` and a witch like `nund` who gang up against their new bhabi.``

So you are the new bhabi. Whos the ``lucky`` bhaiya.

``Reputation is the last thing I care about at chowk``

``Does the lady protesteth (spelling??) too much?``

So there is a soft belly under the thick rhino

Urstruly #167:

[...Please dont do that, I beg you, dont come up with a proof, that will ruin my reputation...]

...thought you did not care about any cyber reputation ... ok, i won`t!;)

...t

temporal

Please dont do that, I beg you, dont come up with a proof, that will ruin my reputation.

(speaking for myself)

Urstruly #164:

[…Don`t you two have anything important to discuss like a genocide or something, haiN?..]

Genocide?……nah…holocaust…now that…is different!


[…Yours truly has always said what he wanted to say as Urstruly - when I say something I stay here to back it up…]

no you don’t!…

…just ask me about proof and I will come up with it:)

…t

Dear people,

I started this thread from my # 53 to prove a point. This single post has generated 100+ responses. Alas! there is not a single one among these 100+ which condemns a heineous crime as a genocide. It pains me to find out that my assumptions that our prejudices and political agendas will always supercede our principles is true. I think we as human beings have failed ourselves. Please feel free to use me as a punching bag, kick me, curse me, spit on me and smite me - but try to find a merciful corner in your heart for those who died in Gujrat because they were of a different belief. But does it matter? I am pretty sure that a charred corpse of a Hindu in the train must look exactly the same as that of Ehsan Jafris and 2000 other. I earnestly beleive that they must have begged for their lives, must have felt the pain just the same. Please understand that the demon is within us all. It is the demon of prejudice. Condemning a genocide is never enough - we must find the devils who made it happen. They are among us. How can we prevent them?

temporal and sac

You two hags are acting like a pair of a meanspirited `saas` and a witch like `nund` who gang up against their new bhabi.

Don`t you two have anything important to discuss like a genocide or something, haiN?

Reputation is the last thing I care about at chowk. I know how to get my point across. Yours truly has always said what he wanted to say as Urstruly - when I say something I stay here to back it up.

DRUMZy..

[ana: I saw most of jogan. That was a good movie. It needs to be remade.]

---awww, I wish I had read this before I made the looooong trek to the Indian store, and rented Devdas and KKKG for me mum to watch when I fly there tomorrow early morn. I saw Asoka last night..they actually had it at Blockbusters!!! And while it`s clear that much or all of the movie was not based on fact, I didn`t think it was too bad...kinda reminded me of Braveheart in parts, and Greek and Shakespearean tragedies. I`ll check out jogan when I return (if they still let me take movies after the lateness with which I`m returning the ones I`m taking home!).

P.S to my last post--I just reread ASA`s review on Asoka, and while I see where he`s coming from, it was the underlying message that impressed me more than the medium the message was conveyed through..if that makes any sense...oh well, enough for now...peace!

[exits quickly]

Karakoram:---158

Your reverence for Hanumanji notwithstanding, but in your zeal for political correctness you ended up blaspheming anyway.

You blasphemed Mullah Omar!

.

That bbc report:

It does seem that the subject monkey is really really a gOD...otherwise why would it refuse to leave?

The Doctor & the Authorities are after all human & not Hanhuman. They are fearful of their lives. The devotees would be somewhat agitated if a gOD is dragged out of the temple-- as if it was a dOG.

Reply # 156 narain

[``On the inclusiveness of Hinduism, here`s a true story.``]

No one doubts the inclusiveness of Hindoos and Hindooism. For example, they are equal opportunity Bar-B-Quers. Whether they are Bar-B-Queing Muslim children in Gujurat or Sikh children in Dehli or the Christian priest`s kids in MP(?), they do the job with the same ease, perfection and finesse. Another sign of their inclusiveness is that they all participate in the Bar-B-Q fest, high caste, low caste, rich, poor, urban, rural, fundamentalists, secularits and the boys/girls next door are all happy and eager participants.

So we see that the Sikh Sirlion Steak Festival in Dehli was managed by the secular Congress-wallahs, the Staines Baby Slow-Roast special was done by the fundamentalist BJP-wallahs and the Muslim Bhuna Gosht in Gujarat was prepared by the everyday Gujurati folks, the Motiwalas, Daruwalas et. al.

Inclusive indeed.

narain:

Not to be blasphemous to Hanuman Ji (chowk`s in-house blaspheme expert urstruly may also be listening) but what if Mullah Omar is a reincarnation of Hanuman Ji, except that he got the body of a human and the mind of a monkey, not the other way around.

A related article.

Court orders release for `monkey god`

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2224025.stm

urstruly..

[Your post was not an answer to my questions. `Genocide is bad` is not enough-the topic under discussion is genocide in Gujrat by Hindu maniacs. That was my complaint all along that whenever your ilk condemns genocide in Gujrat it tries to tone its severity down by mentioning a genocide elsewhere. It means you are stealtly giving moral support to the perpetrators of a heinious crime like genocide.]

---you know what? i`m not going to continue this thread with you anymore. How dare you accuse me of toning down what happened in Gujrat, simply by remembering what has happened anywhere else. Remembering doesn`t mean minimizing...remembering means working harder to insure that what the Hindus did in Gujrat, what the Muslims did to those Hindus in the train, what is happening to Christians, Ahmedis, and Shias in Pakistan does NOT HAPPEN AGAIN. You can be pissed off at me all you want urstruly..be pissed off at me and my ilk for life. Like I said..your anger and disrespect means nothing to me.

Your post #44 was not addressed to Hindus of Gujrat..it said dear Hindus..get that? Your post #53..that glossary of Hindu terms was not just confined to those genocidal Hindus, or those who abetted them, or those who contributed to the causes..it was for all Hindus..get that? Now what got me..was the irresponsibility of those posts. Let us indeed talk about contributing to the causes of genocide. . .if a Hindu had insulted the way of life of the Muslims, or described Muslims in as illuminating terms as you`ve described them...does that in any way contribute to the hate and anger which in turn contributes to causes leading to genocide???

I give moral support to NO ONE who perpetrates crimes against humanity. . .as I hope you don`t either.

I don`t support anyone, even the idiot interactors here at Chowk who make glaring insulting statements against a group of people and their faith, that includes harimau, jay, you and your friends tahafahim and the farangi multi-beast, among others. We`ve been torn apart by hate long enough. Not to be as hateful as you were does NOT mean we condone or support what the Hindus did in Gujarat.

Like I said, I`m not continuing this thread with you anymore. I`m leaving Chowk as of today, for a little while, possibly for good. So goodbye to you, and good riddance! I`ve fed into your pissy attitude and your ignorance long enough.

ref: Sridhar #116

On the inclusiveness of Hinduism, here`s a true story. My friend came to the US for higher studies, and found company with a bunch of Pakistani undergrads. One of them persuaded her to attend a meeting on Islam. After the meeting she was introduced to the secretary of the association, who on finding out that she was a Hindu, promptly gave her a copy of the holy Quran. ``The only thing is,`` he said, ``you have to keep the book in a high and clean place``. ``Of course``, said my friend, quite innocently, ``I`ll keep it in my Puja with all the Gods``. Needless to say the Quran was snatched out of her hands, and she was uninvited from all future meetings.

But I sometimes wonder....what if the Prophet (PBUH) was actually the 11th incarnation of Vishnu? :)

-narain

After so long sopme INSIGHTFULL writing .& ONLY b/c its not Mid east Pakistan or Kashmir

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/24/arts/24QNA.html?ex=1031418789&ei=1&en=7d06

85b84ac25512w

A friend just sent me this, I`m including a couple of excerpts that I

thought there particularly interesting...

S

Women Are Nurturing?

How About Cruel, Especially to One Another

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

August 24, 2002

Phyllis Chesler is a feminist psychotherapist, author of several books about

women and the founder of the Association for Women in Psychology. In her

latest book, ``Woman`s Inhumanity to Woman`` (Thunder`s Mouth Press/Nation

Books, 2002) she explores the often cruel relationships between women.

Read full article at

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/24/arts/24QNA.html?ex=1031418789&ei=1&en=7d0685b84ac25512

bundchungal

It is not very difficult to find out the multiple incarnations of one person unless that person is extremely smart :-) You can change the content of your posts but the style, the vocabulary etc are more difficult to change. It is the unmistakable similarity of sentence-construction(grammatical errors) and style that lead people to infer that 12 heads are infact the same person. Besides if a person is masquerading to be a Pakistani but has no ``intimate`` knowledge of Pakistan, i.e. something that can not be easily obtained through google search, remain sceptical about his identity. Intimate knowledge includes the knowledge of the local dialect or minor but significant details of the local cultural peculiarities etcetera. Another thing- the more a peson stays on Chowk, the more are the chances that the rality would come out sometime. Based on the above I can say with some confidence that Urstruly probably does not have multiple nicks. Neither does sac,ylh,rsaxena or shankar.

sac (#149)

Say that again. Who is who now?

If your hopothesis is true then this chap, whomever he/she is, is one sick guy with a lot of time on his hands.

But who`s to say that the other so-called ``ligitimte`` interactors are not ``multi-headed`` beings from a dying planet, waiting to take over Chowk?

Btw, I hope you are real and that I am not talking to yet another incarnation of rsexena or shankar, or ylh.

or whatever...

urstruly,

its cuz of people like you that i have no faith in islam anymore people like you piss on the quran every day.......................

sac #149:

[…12-headed monster is rapidly being taken over by the 12-headed urstruly. He is now berating himself as Busharraf..........how sick can a man get?..]

you sure?…good cop, bad cop?…

and what about your favourite world class banker, venture capitalist?….that farangi hydra….hamzad afaqui, progressive, 420420 or is it 786786?…taha…?

…pretty soon we can all sit back and relax and let the hydras comment on each other…good for the hit count on chowk if nothing else…

rgds,

t

12-headed monster is rapidly being taken over by the 12-headed urstruly. He is now berating himself as Busharraf..........how sick can a man get?

later

-sac

re:Reply #: 139

busharraf,

Thanks for the compliments.

Sridhar

Shades of the Urstruly`s quaint sort of colonial-racist anthropological view of `hindoos` are seen even in publically stated views of public figures and media in Pakistan. The degrees and details vary, thats all. Ms Shireen Mazari and Gauhar Ayub Khan(or do I mean Altaf Gauhar) both regularly published in the The News can teach even Urstruly and the other guy a thing or two about venom.

But as Busharraf rightly says such people are dimwitted and there is only so much to be gained by replying to them on their terms :)

---


Outlook Sept 2 issue(www.outlookindia.com) has a
book review of the book

`Urban violence in India, Identity Politics, `Mumbai` and the Postcolonial city`
by Thomas Blom Hansen.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?sid=1&fname=Booksa&fodname=20020902&secname=Books
A pathology of the Shiv Sena`s apocalyptic politics of self-esteem

Its a study of why and how the Shiv Sena was so successful. ``.. as Hansen reminds us, any such answer also throws light on the character of Indian society and politics, what it is and what it might become..``

``.. Hansen tells a graphic and compelling story about the rise of the Sena. The structural transformations in the political economy of Mumbai certainly gave the Sena an opening: the decline of traditional working class politics brought about by changes in the structure of industry; the inability of civic life as it existed in Bombay in the `60s and `70s to cater to the aspirations of the newly emerging classes and the unorganised sector; the incapacity of its cosmopolitan ethos to give full due to vernacular cultures and idioms; the general churning of society which would no longer accept the paternalism of the older Bombay; the competition over white collar jobs and the internal corrosion of public institutions.

But, as Hansen insists, the Sena`s success cannot be attributed simply to structural causes of social dynamics. Its success is largely political and can be attributed, in no small measure, to a repertoire of organisational and rhetorical inventions. In fact, Hansen argues, that rather than drawing upon pre-given identities like caste, or the Maratha regional identity, the Sena politically created these identities; its strategy is governed by a deliberate choice rather than a social logic.

Thus much of the study concentrates on the organisation, its rhetoric, mobilisational techniques and political strategy of the Sena. Hansen describes in vivid detail all the paradoxical elements that have made the Sena a success, an astonishing combination of bravado and opportunism, organisational hierarchy and local entrepreneurship,violent gestures and social service.

But in its essentials, the secret of the Sena`s and Thackeray`s success lies in the fact that it successfully deploys an apocalyptic politics of self-esteem. It gives young, powerless, insecure men seeking affirmation of their own moral worth an opportunity to view themselves as strong, powerful and capable of self-assertion. Association with the Sena allows them the license to become strongmen or dadas with a worthy cause. It gives them a manifest explanation of their sense of injury, by projecting it onto an alien other, and satisfies their desire for recognition. Although Hansen does not quite put it in these words, the Sena feeds on an urban experience that can be profoundly alienating. Old moral codes do not have the power to inspire, the aspiration to upward mobility is rarely, if ever, fulfilled, and is accompanied by an existential condition where one often needs to assert one`s will in order to feel alive. Hence the Sena emphasises not long-term social and institutional transformation, but violent, theatrical gestures and public performance. Hansen brilliantly analyses Thackeray`s intuitive grasp of this reality and the commanding and intimate way in which his homely idioms cater to it, the ways in which he endows `ordinary` existence with a modicum of worth.

More importantly, it throws light on the ways in which the excess, violence and essential vapidity of our politics is threatening to jeopardise the gains of democracy. If politics becomes a means, not of solving practical problems, but of feeling assertive and alive, it will consume us all in its wake...``

busharraf #139 Welcome to this really pathetic board! You are right on the mark in what you write about urstruly and tahafahim.

I also appreciate your kind references towards me, although living up to them is going to require some effort :-).

Dear Harpreet/122 aka Sajjid . . . one Sikh I researched left the service of the Mughal ARmy whent he Brits refused to trade with anybody who was not a Brahmin, and so he became a Christian and then walked all the way to China where on the way for some time he became a Buddhust, reaching Russia through Mongolia, he then became a Bolshie. Subsequetly, one branch of his family went to Italy, then to British Columbia (small error by travel agent, you see) and then down to the tip of Chile to a rockphos port where today he still keeps a really neat Babe da room and a wife from Moga.

I thought you should know.

Urstruly: Im not surprised that ur gonna revert back to ur old ways of ignoring me. I would apologize for cutting a thread with a sword, but u did say something quite STUPID, so my comments were accurate.

U think moral courage has something to do with sitting on a computer in detroit and ``condeming`` some people ull never see. And if i call u dumb, ur gonna get angry, lol.

As i said earlier, if ur gonna post online, be prepared to take both the good and bad. I still dont understand how calling u stupid is an insult. Its more a statement of fact based on what u wrote.

ana: I saw most of jogan. That was a good movie. It needs to be remade.

Samina: Yea for sure, but it seems like our brave mujahideen warrior is hiding under his keyboard. I wouldnt mind striking his pressure points with a knife. IM saying, he loves allah, why not let me make the intro?

ana

what pisses me off is not the sanctimonious crap that your ilk throws around, it is the cowardice. You have no problem mentioning Armenian genocide but you don`t have moral courage to write a sentence that uses the words ``hindu`` and ``genocide`` together.

Your post was not an answer to my questions. `Genocide is bad` is not enough-the topic under discussion is genocide in Gujrat by Hindu maniacs. That was my complaint all along that whenever your ilk condemns genocide in Gujrat it tries to tone its severity down by mentioning a genocide elsewhere. It means you are stealtly giving moral support to the perpetrators of a heinious crime like genocide.

About Drumz, I am acting on the advise of a wise man who once said that never try to argue with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and beat you at their game. Since according to Drumz everybody except him is either an idiot or a fool or a motherfukker I will not drag him down to my level and beat him at my game.

You on the other hand is a different character. I dont want to win an argument from you. I just want to know what set your tail on fire.

hmmmmmm........

First, to all intelligent and honorable chowk.com members who genuinely are trying to air and resolve the deep rooted differences between India and Pakistan, Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) and Islam. I would like to say the following:

I have been reading the recent posts on this board and am appalled to see the gutter level to which it has been reduced. For this I squarely lay the blame on urstruly and the self-proclaimed “mullah” tahafahim. These people are just troublemakers and are an utter disgrace to Pakistan and Islam. All what they have posted is unIslamic. It is pure hate and Islam does not stand for hate, at least the Islam I personally follow.

Tahafahim (#90) you are the not most despicable person I know (I have met, and continue to meet, even worse people that your self on day to day basis in my personal and work). Please know it that you are just a nondescript insect, or more appropriately a parasite on society. You feed of off society in the disguise of holy men. You are not a God fearing man, let alone a respectable mullah. You run your evil madrasahs and propagate violence and cannibalism! Which Imam taught you that personal value? If you cannot find Hindus you go after Christians, or some other minority. That is what is happening in Pakistan these days. Urstruly, you are a parasite too. You are an armchair terrorist whose ambition is to lead a fantasy jihad. Inshallah, You will accomplish neither!

Both Urstruly and your chela Tahafahim (or is it the other way around?) please know it that your tactics may work on 3-4 year old children. But it will not work on the intelligent people visiting Chowk.com. Most people here are honourable so if you cannot find the honour in your personal being, I suggest you go to the fields and scare the crows away. You are just scarecrows!! Just a facade with no substance.

I feel terrible that my religion has been so maligned on Chowk.com. I apologize to all members for the actions of Urstruly and Tahafahim. They will not do so personally because they are dull witted and do not even comprehend the evil they have vomited here. But I will apologize for their cowardly and terrorist acts. Please do not take them as an example of Islam, dear Chowk.com members from India. These people are the scum of our society. I would any day discard all the tahafahims and urstrulys of Pakistan for the company of just one rshridhar or tahmed321. These two are the undiscovered gems of Chowk.com and we should appreciate their presence and the way they show us by example on how to behave in a honourable manner.

To rsridhar, (Reply #: 116)

Your post on “Sanatana Dharma” is very nice. I have seen several of the quotes before and have read many of the original references you listed. I completely agree with you that one does not, and should not, have to degrade anyone`s religion to prove a point. No point can be proven by such logic. Religion, like people, should stand on their own merits. Sanatana Dharma is a beautiful and superior way of life. And I respect it for what it represents and teaches. During the past few days an evil depiction of Islam has been presented before you. Please do not accept that all Muslims are like that. Even though I was born into Islam, and I love it for its noble and humanitarian values, I would abandon it in an instant if the Islam of Tahafahim and Urstruly were ever proven as the true Islam. Believe me it is NOT! Yours and my friend, Janab Tahmed321, has previously eloquently attested to this fact, along with great people like Janab Ras Siddiqui.

I agree that there are many people in my country who hate Hindus and Christians, like a merchant lusts for money, or an uncouth lusts for a woman, or a glutton salivates for food. But ask them why they hold on to this hatred, and they cannot tell you why. There cannot be any justification for such insanity. These people only have a canned answer: “that they are infidels”; this has been tattooed onto their brains by their local mullahs and government schoolteachers. I apologize to you personally for these offensive and unIslamic remarks.

To Ana (on may recent posts):

This Tahafahim and Urstruly are cockroaches. Just brush them aside. They need to be swept back into the gutter from where they came. I know it is hard but the best way to deal with such people is to make them know that they are insignificant pests. These people should be ignored. Like they did in the days of old: Hukkha pani band!! That is what they deserve.

I have noticed that Janab Tahmed321, has take a statesman like stand in which he has merely confirmed another’s remark. He has a way with using just a few words to reach his objectives, and always knows the proper way to react. We can all learn a lot from people like him and rshridhar. Both appear to be scholars in their own right.

Ana, please do not leave the Chowk.com. At least, not because of Urstruly and Tahafahim. These are insignificant low life. I look forward to your comments and interesting opinions on this website.

Regards to all,

Shoaib

re: shammi

{Rsaxena, I am not worried. Amused is the right word.}

...that`s what everyone should be...but some people are trying, sincerely, to reason with mullahs urstooly & co....it`s like when some arabs jump around on the streets and declare ``death to america`` and blah blah blah...who really gives a $hit (no one)...it`s worth a good laugh, but that`s about it...

re: 786786/progressive

{The Genocide at Mazar e Sharif----The Organised Democracy of Criminals, the US, behind it.}

...here`s a martini toast hoping that the `organized democracy of criminals` gets you next...(but not before you get your free cruise to guantanamo bay)...

Sammi jaan,

[ana, Dont you DARE go anyplace, babe!]

--oh but babe, I must! Making the annual summer pilgrimage to ammi jaan`s...interestingly enough made it at approximately the same time last year, was there with her Sep. 11th and the aftermath..and am thankful I was with her `cause neither of us should have been alone in those dark days. different time zone, different atmosphere, no internet, and no Chowk *sigh * for approximately ten days. So I leave the chowkidaari of this place in your capable hands, as well as those of drumzy, anNy (when she`s around), fawad, harpreet (hai rabba), and I know I`m missing a few well-deserved peeps..khair...

just remember we`ve already been booted out of paradise, so let`s not do anything to get ourselves booted out of chowk hell. And as the sergeant says in Hill Street Blues, `Let`s be careful out there.` :-)

Complete text: missing from # 133

``When the Jackal`s end is near, it ventures towards the city---`or Afghanistan or Vietnam or`-------`` farsi proverb.

Afghanistan is on the brink of another disaster

Reported by: Robert Fisk

8/14/2002 (The Independent) :: The garden was overgrown, the roses scrawny after a day of Kandahar heat, the dust in our eyes, noses, mouth, fingernails. But the message was straightforward. ``This is a secret war,`` the Special Forces man told me. ``And this is a dirty war. You don`t know what is happening.`` And of course, we are not supposed to know. In a ``war against terror``, journalists are supposed to keep silent and rely on the good guys to sort out the bad guys without worrying too much about human rights.

How many human rights did the mass killers of 11 September allow their victims? You are either with us or against us. Whose side are you on? But the man in the garden was worried. He was not an American. He was one of the ``coalition allies``, as the Americans like to call the patsies who have trotted after them into the Afghan midden. ``The Americans don`t know what to do here now,`` he went on. ``Their morale in Afghanistan is going downhill – though there`s no problem with the generals running things in Tampa. They`re still gung-ho. But here the soldiers know things haven`t gone right, that things aren`t working. Even their interrogations went wrong``. Brutally so, it seems.

In the early weeks of this year, the Americans raided two Afghan villages, killed 10 policemen belonging to the US-supported government of Hamid Karzai and started mistreating the survivors. American reporters – in a rare show of mouse-like courage amid the self-censorship of their usual reporting – quoted the prisoners as saying they had been beaten by US troops. According to Western officials in Kandahar, the US troops ``gave the prisoners a thrashing``.

Things have since changed. The American forces in Afghanistan, it seems, now leave the beatings to their Afghan allies, especially members of the so-called Afghan Special Forces, a Washington-supported group of thugs who are based in the former Khad secret police torture centre in Kabul. ``It`s the Afghan Special Forces who beat the Pashtun prisoners for information now – not the Americans,`` the Western military man told me. ``But the CIA are there during the beatings, so the Americans are culpable, they let it happen.``

This is just how the Americans began in Vietnam. They went in squeaky clean with advisers, there were some incidents of ``termination with extreme prejudice``, after which it was the Vietnamese intelligence boys who did the torture. The same with the Russians. When their soldiers poured across the border in 1979, they quickly left it to their Afghan allies in the Parcham and Khad secret police to carry out the ``serious`` interrogations. And if this is what the Americans are now up to in Afghanistan, what is happening to their prisoners at Guantanamo? Or, for that matter, at Bagram, the airbase north of Kabul to which all prisoners in Kandahar are now sent for investigation if local interrogators believe their captives have more to say.

Of course, it`s possible to take a step back from this dark and sinister corner of America`s Afghan adventure. In the aftermath of the Taliban`s defeat humanitarian workers have achieved some little miracles. Unicef reports 486 female teachers at work in the five south-western provinces of the country with 16,674 girls now at school. Only in Uruzgan, where the Taliban were strongest, has not a single female teacher been employed. UN officials can boast that in these same, poverty-belt provinces, polio has now been almost eradicated.

The UN was fighting polio before the Taliban collapsed, and the drugs whose production the Taliban banned are now back on the market. The poppy fields are growing in Helmand province again, and in Uruzgan local warlords are trying to avoid government control in order to cultivate their own new poppy production centres. In Kabul, where two government ministers have been murdered in seven months, President Karzai is now protected – at his own request – by American bodyguards. And you don`t have to be a political analyst to know what kind of message this sends to Afghans.

Kabul is alive with the kind of rumours that can never be substantiated but that stick in the mind, just as the dust of Kandahar stays in the throat and on the lips of all who go there. ``The British forces were right to leave,`` a British humanitarian worker announced over dinner in Kabul one night. ``They realised that the Americans had no real interest in returning this country to law and order. They knew that the Americans were going to fail. So they got out as soon as they could. The Americans say they want peace and stability. So why don`t they let Isaf (the international force in Kabul) move into the other big cities of Afghanistan? Why do they let their friendly warlords persecute the rest of the country?``

Far more disturbing are persistent reports from northern Afghanistan of the massacre of thousands of Pashtuns after the slaughter at General Dostum`s Qal-i-Jangi fort last November These mass murders, according to a humanitarian worker I have known for two decades – he played a brave role in preventing killings in Lebanon in 1982 – went on into December with the full knowledge of the Americans. But the US did nothing about it, any more than they did about the 600 Pakistani prisoners at Shirbagan, some of whom are still dying of starvation and ill-treatment at the hands of their Northern Alliance captors.

``There are mass graves all across the north, and the Americans, who know about this, have said nothing,`` my old friend said. ``The British intelligence people knew this, too. And the British have said nothing.``

There are those in Kabul who suspect that the Americans are now in Afghanistan for secondary reasons: to operate in and out of Pakistan, rather than in Afghanistan itself. ``They`ve had plenty of muck-ups in Afghanistan and they could not base thousands of their soldiers in Pakistan,`` a Western officer in Kabul said. ``They`re safer here, and now they can go in and out of Pakistan and keep the pressure on Musharraf from here – and on the Iranians too.``

Last week, The Independent revealed that FBI officers have been seizing Arabs from their homes in Pakistan and bringing them across the border to Afghanistan for interrogation at Bagram.

It was the Special Forces man in the south who saw things a little more globally. ``Perhaps the Americans can start withdrawing if there`s another war – if they go to war in Iraq. But the US can`t handle two wars at the same time. They would be overstretched.`` So to end America`s ``war against terror`` in Afghanistan – a war that has left the drug-dealers of the Northern Alliance in disproportionate control of the Afghan government, many al-Qa`ida men on the loose and absolutely no peace in the country – we have to have another war in Iraq.

As if the Israeli-Palestine conflict is not enough. But when Donald Rumsfeld, the US Secretary of State, can identify only a ``so-called`` Israeli-occupied territory on the West Bank – the occupation troops there presumably being mistaken by the Pentagon as Swiss or Burmese soldiers – there`s not much point in taking a reality check in Washington.

The truth is that Afghanistan is on the brink of another disaster. Pakistan is now slipping into the very anarchy of which its opposition warned. And the Palestinian-Israeli war is now out of control. So we really need a war in Iraq, don`t we?

urstruly...

You should have already felt the shame in saying `fukk you too!` but I didn`t expect you to then, and I don`t expect you to now.

and I would ask you to stop acting like a bully lawyer..and I raise the objection to the judge (who is this case is the ooparwala) and say asked and answered, okay?!?????

Listen to me very carefully, and I will try to speak slowly, and softly (without the big stick of course)--in my humble opinion, genocide is morally wrong, anywhere on this earth that we have poisoned. Once I have said that, I feel I have no more need to answer your bullying questions, because I feel that genocide is carried out in many ways, e.g. by continually denying the Armenian genocide even now, the Turkish government and some of its people are committing the very same genocide over and over and over again.

I have never asked for your respect and truthfully I will not lose any sleep over the fact that you don`t respect me. It has already been made clear by numerous chowk `characters` just how little respect we have for each other and for humanity. I`m not going to stand on a soapbox here and plead that we show love for one another. . .people have got to know what love is before that can happen. So please, if I have failed to sound like G.W, and you don`t respect me. . . that`s fine with me.

As for your insinuation about my diplomas. . .hmmm...last I checked, my diplomas were not in a suitcase, they were dumped for the ridiculous piece of paper they are. Last I checked, I really didn`t need to have a diploma as you said to have moral courage, or to be sanctimonious. It`s really interesting how this adjective has been used here mainly to describe women interactors on chowk. I`ve never heard temporal described as sanctimonious..perhaps tahmed, and never never you, urstruly. I must do some further research on this. Khair, I would rather be described as sanctimonious, than a pseudo-intellectual, or an ignorant pissant, or even an intellectual. But I know from the spirit of your post that you consider me much less than that, so I actually feel rather complimented. You still want to say `fukk you`???? I say bless you, urstruly, bless you and the ground that you walk on!

Now why don`t you go on and answer DRUMZy`s questions to his satisfaction. I am an old tired sanctimonious and fukked individual who needs her rest.

ana,

Dont you DARE go anyplace, babe!

Drumz,

If you meet up with tawa, can I come along? I have a good right upper cut....

Urstruly,

Tsk tsk tsk....

Ana # 128

Moral courage is not a diploma like that of matric or FA, which sits in your suitcase for years – it is something that you have to show everyday, every minute to prove that you are morally courageous. This place is full of phokay patakhay, here you have to prove that you are not one of them – at least with your words.

The condemnation of all Hindus is bad – fine – point taken - but I did mention dodos and unicorns didn`t I? Now you are saying that these dodos and unicorns are real – well where the hell are they? I don’t see a single one on this forum. Are you referring to the author who is trying to stick a cardboard horn on his forehead to prove that he is a unicorn? Are they sitting in your suitcase along with your diplomas?

Again your post was anything but….., anything but………, anything but……….

Let me make it easy for you. You can reply the following either in `Yes` or `No` and you can also add your notes.

1. Do you or do you not condemn those Hindus who actually and physically carried out the genocide in Gujrat?

2. Do you or do you not condemn those Hindus who aided and abetted those who actually and physically carried out the genocide in Gujrat?

3. Do you or do you not condemn those Hindus who created and promoted an atmosphere of hatred, which eventually resulted in the genocide in Gujrat?

And yes I will keep on daring you to show your moral courage as long as you keep on giving me your sanctimonious pontifications. I need to know whether you are truthful enough to be worthy of my respect or not. I want to feel the shame which I should have felt when I wrote to you ``fukk you too``.

Urstruly: Im gonna ask u the same Q I ask all the fools. How old are u? More importantly, who the fukk do u think ur talking to??? Its one thing to convince urself of some bullsh1t, but to have the audacity to speak it to intelligent people...

``Therefore, a crime must be treated, investigated, and analyzed through the procedure of a criminal investigation and not just through our prejudices and political agendas.``

AND THE VERY PREVIOUS POST...

``The condemnations of the acts of genocide by Hindu religious nuts are not enough. You must also condemn the causes, which brought about such tragedy. And the main cause is the atmosphere of hate created by Hindu Hindus, Secular Hindus, and Atheist Hindus.``

So why not blame Muslims for creating the atmosphere for al qaeda to function? And what investigation have u done in Gujrat?

Tahafahim: Wussup mufukka. Please stop ignoring me, where do u live? Im sincerely interested in meeting u. If ur mouth in real life isnt as big as it is on chowk, im sure some fancy crowbar work will change that.

urstruly..

[Now let me see if you have moral courage to condemn them, the real freaks, the seculars, the democrat and the atheist Hindus; let me see what your principles of high moral values are; let me see that you can sacrifice your political agenda here for the sake of truth, honesty and justice. Can you do that? If you can`t then fukk you too.]

----You have no idea what you`re saying, do you? No, I really don`t think you do. You are not just saying that a group of Hindus was responsible for the carnage in Gujarat, but that all Hindus were responsible. You have no idea how irresponsible that statement is, the hate and the prejudice that exists in that even from a virtual character like you urstruly...real people read this and feel justifiably upset. You would be just as condoning and understanding if I had said something equally hateful about Muslims? And then said..guys it was an experiment. I don`t think so.

I`ve been told that I shouldn`t even be engaging in this dialogue with you..and I feel the same way. You needn`t taunt me childishly about whether I have moral courage or not, urstruly. I KNOW I do. I don`t have to defend myself to you about condemning the genocide in Gujarat, because I KNOW that it is morally wrong..and that steps must be taken, answers must be found, understanding MUST take place, so that we can say `never again.` When you were doing this experiment about prejudice, perhaps you should have done what Harimau did for you..it would have been much more well-rounded. And you still would have gotten a buttfull from both sides, because the bottom line is..your posts were irresponsible. Even IF people as you describe exist, to lump them altogether as you did will and has been perceived by quite a few, with the exception of your good maulana buddies, as nothing but a bunch of constipated malodorous crap which you couldn`t flush down yourself, so you had to expose it to the rest of us.

I`ve seen racism seminars where people are given a hypothetical situation, to test and see what the results are...you presented no such situation to us, until after the fact. What you did cannot be compared to those seminars. And even now, you defend what you said. Continue doing so, if that`s what your conscience tells you to do..but DO NOT expect me to be lacking in MORAL COURAGE because I will not make irresponsible statements like you, and lump all Hindus together...baat samajh main a`ayi ya nahin, bachche?

And one more thing.. telling me to go fukk myself doesn`t help your argument very well either.

Rsaxena, I am not worried. Amused is the right word.

Samina,

[I like snakes and one woman`s traitor is another woman`s freedom fighter....come on guys and dolls, if this tawfahim/urstruly/banjaara thing is a joke, its over already....we need some madness of a sublime degree....Oye Lajwanti! We NEED you!]

---oye yaar, not Lajjo..puhleeze...Lajjo and sublime...chee! But you are right, the joke is over, I`m leaving on a jet plane, don`t know when I`ll be back again. . .

re: ``...who/y /ouare Fat/a/flana? HAIN?? /Who uare to challegning Urstulybai/? Bew/shame! No sypathy for u!!!! Why u are always talk/ talk /talk about Mullah/s andwich/, haiN? Wat, wat, r u /afqui/? If than I giwe sypathy, ok? But /repaint/, plzx!...``

Genius!

Worth Repeating!

Lest We Forget.

Mushharraf------the Butcherrraf of muslims & Islam!

__________________________________________________

Our friends are killers, crooks and torturers

Reported by: Robert Fisk, The Independent

10/12/2001 :: Almost four weeks after the crimes against humanity in New York and Washington, we are playing politics on the hoof and allying ourselves to some of the nastiest butchers around.

Mr Blair may believe that ``the values we believe in should shine through what we do in Afghanistan`` but few of our ``friends`` in the region have many values, and some of them have a lot of blood on their hands. For as we search for facilities and jumping-off points and air space and access -- and we are now creating policies by the day -- we are being asked to forget a lot of recent history.

First out of the memory goes Chechnya. The savage repression of this Muslim republic complete with mass executions, mass rape and mass graves -- was the brainchild of Vladimir Putin, the former serving KGB officer into whose soul Mr Bush believes he

peered in Slovenia.

Mr Putin`s assault on Grozny was timed to bring him the Russian presidency, and within weeks his indisciplined troops had turned the rubble of Chechnya into something approaching Afghanistan. Mr Putin now seems our strongest ally in the ``war against terror``. And why not, when he is himself such a master of terror?

``When the Jackal`s end is near, it ventures towards the city---`or Afghanistan or Vietnam or`-------`` farsi proverb.

__________________________________________________

Afghanistan is on the brink of another disaster

Reported by: Robert Fisk

8/14/2002 (The Independent) :: The garden was overgrown, the roses scrawny after a day of Kandahar heat, the dust in our eyes, noses, mouth, fingernails. But the message was straightforward. ``This is a secret war,`` the Special Forces man told me. ``And this is a dirty war. You don`t know what is happening.`` And of course, we are not supposed to know. In a ``war against terror``, journalists are supposed to keep silent and rely on the good guys to sort out the bad guys without worrying too much about human rights.

How many human rights did the mass killers of 11 September allow their victims? You are either with us or against us. Whose side are you on? But the man in the garden was worried. He was not an American. He was one of the ``coalition allies``, as the Americans like to call the patsies who have trotted after them into the Afghan midden. ``The Americans don`t know what to do here now,`` he went on. ``Their morale in Afghanistan is going downhill – though there`s no problem with the generals running things in Tampa. They`re still gung-ho. But here the soldiers know things haven`t gone right, that things aren`t working. Even their interrogations went wrong``. Brutally so, it seems.

In the early weeks of this year, the Americans raided two Afghan villages, killed 10 policemen belonging to the US-supported government of Hamid Karzai and started mistreating the survivors. American reporters – in a rare show of mouse-like courage amid the self-censorship of their usual reporting – quoted the prisoners as saying they had been beaten by US troops. According to Western officials in Kandahar, the US troops ``gave the prisoners a thrashing``.

786786;

[Sikhs who embraced Islam----& became Maulanas! Where else such egalitarianism possible?]

Nowhere! You got me! Where do I sign up??!!

-Sajjid-

(formerly Harpreet Singh)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Prem #86 Great move! You, a hindu yourself, have cutandpaste anti-hindu garbage from Pat Robertson for the reading pleasure of tahafahim, 786786 and urstruly (although the last seems almost sane compared to the other two!).

This will confuse the half-brained hindu-muslim chowk warriors (who sincerely believe they are fighting some epic battle on chowk, when all they are doing is using their anonymity to hurl abuse), and delight the normal people on chowk.

Urstruly,

Dude, why do you demand so much attention?

Also, answer my questions about the author`s credibility; why should any of us take you seriously after that last unseemingly display of petulance?

Drumz # 101

[Urstruly: ``As long as this cat is alive, it will remain curious. I am curious, therefore, I am.``

If I said all Muslims are to blame for 9/11, u and the camel rapers would start whining. Yet Hindus are all responsible for not batting their extremists? ]

Reply:

9/11 is a crime – a crime against humanity. Therefore, a crime must be treated, investigated, and analyzed through the procedure of a criminal investigation and not just through our prejudices and political agendas. If we go by the scientific procedure of investigation we must put the President of US under investigation also. I believe in what Sherlock Holmes once advised to Dr. Watson.:

``How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?``

Our whining is the common sense. Hate and prejudice prey upon common sense.

Shammi # 93

All choices have consequences and I am a stern beleiver in retribution. # 53 might be the consequence of the choices one made. You have too look at the things in the Newtonian realm, where we all live in.

Ana # 94

I decided to stop interacting with you and wrote my cat post because of your morally bankrupt post # 94. It says everything BUT what needs to be said. It is easier to be prejudiced and show it against a virtual character named Urstruly because you don`t have to compromise your political agenda. The condemnations of the acts of genocide by Hindu religious nuts are not enough. You must also condemn the causes, which brought about such tragedy. And the main cause is the atmosphere of hate created by Hindu Hindus, Secular Hindus, and Atheist Hindus.

You may disagree with the way I described and defined them, but such categories do exist. I can caste a spell of my verbosity and define them in a fashion that they will buy and adopt those descriptions like a preteen buys a new Barbie. But that fails the purpose of us being here-we are talking about the monsters, who created the hell where genocides happen. No one just gets up from his bed one day and starts torching and raping his neighborers, be it a Hindu or a Hutu or a Serb or a Nazi. There IS someone who prepared the mind of genocidal maniacs in Gujrat; there is someone who motivated them; there is someone who showed them the way; there is someone who fueled the fires of prejudices and turned them into animals. That, my friend, are the Secular and Atheist Hindus; who did create an atmosphere of hatred against Muslims through print and electronic media. Their TV, their radio, their newspapers did create those monsters. And the Satans who are running those TVs, newspapers, and radios are not religious nuts, they are the secular and atheist Hindus. We cannot let them off the hook while they devilishly shift the blame of genocide onto religious nuts alone. The religious nuts are honest because they acted on what their system of beliefs tells them – secular and atheist hindus are the actual blot on the face of humanity. Their anti-Mulsim, anti-Islam, Anti-Pakistan bigotry that they used to express ``scientifically``, the Goebles way prior to 9/11 to prove to their Western masters that Pakistan and Muslims are terrorists and right after 9/11 their psychotic somersaults to please their masters has brought such tragedy upon themselves. And the worst tragedy than this is that the people (Western Colonial powers) whom they were trying to please and convince has made alliance with Pakistan and not with them. They, however, did succeed in convincing their own people who expressed themselves with machetes and canisters of kerosene oil.

Now let me see if you have moral courage to condemn them, the real freaks, the seculars, the democrat and the atheist Hindus; let me see what your principles of high moral values are; let me see that you can sacrifice your political agenda here for the sake of truth, honesty and justice. Can you do that? If you can`t then fukk you too.

I am deeply offended by the prejudice and bias of you people against me. Now what is this, tahafahim is funny and I am not; he is a fake and I am not; that hurt. It even hurts more when yo-yo hindus insult my camels. Why don`t you people insult his camels also. You all hate me just because I am beautiful, and my camels are sexier than his?.

re: this controversy about ``Sanatana Dharma``

I read with amusement how some idiots on chowk criticise a religion without knowing anything about it. One idiot even quoted some Indian luminaries. Both Dr Radhakrishnan and Nehru are respected and knowledgeable people. Their defintion of Sanatana Dharma (also called Hinduism) is exactly what they say it is: it is amorphous and not clear cut. Hinduism is not like a corporate body: with a founder, some basic principles of governance, some rules and a following. If it were just that,it would have succumbed to other religions which behave like modern day big business houses. You have to marvel at a religion that has kept its faith without allowing any proselytising, without conversions, without any central command structure.

In order to understand this religion, you have to be an intellectual or be born a hindu. Let me quote some luminaries:

1. ``In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita in comparison with which our modern world and its literature seems puny.``

source: The Writings of Henry D. Thoreau - Walden 1989. Princeton Univ. Press. page 298).

2. Schopenhauer (German Philosopher) became acquainted with the thought of the Upanishads through a Latin translation from Persian by a Frenchman, Anquetil Duperron. I quote him:

``From every sentence (of the Upanishads) deep, original and sublime thoughts arise, and the whole is pervaded by a high and holy and earnest spirit....``In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Upanishads. They are destined sooner or later to become the faith of the people.``

He also remarked: ``How every line is of such strong, determined, and consistent meaning! And on every page we encounter deep, original, lofty thoughts, while the whole world is suffused with a high and holy seriousness.``

(source: cited in German in Upanishaden: Altindische Weisheit (Upanishads: Ancient Indian Wisdom) - By Alfred Hillebrandt (Dussseldorf-Koln, Germany; Diederichs Verlag, 1964 p. 8)

3. Lord Warren Hastings (1754-1826), was the first governor general of British India. Hastings was very much impressed and overwhelmed with Hindu philosophy. He wrote with a prophetic and resounding pronouncement on the whole body of Indian writings:

``The writers of the Indian philosophies will survive, when the British dominion in India shall long have ceased to exist, and when the sources which it yielded of wealth and power are lost to remembrances.``

(source: Philosophy of Hinduism - An Introduction By T. C. Galav Universal Science-Religion. Pg 19).

4. Speaking on Vedas, Emerson, the philosopher said:

`` It is sublime as night and a breathless ocean. It contains every religious sentiment, all the grand ethics which visit in turn each noble poetic mind....It is of no use to put away the book; if I trust myself in the woods or in a boat upon the pond. Nature makes a Brahmin of me presently: eternal compensation, unfathomable power, unbroken silence....This is her creed. peace, she saith to me, and purity and absolute abandonment - these panaceas expiate all sin and bring you to the beatitude of the Eight Gods.``

5. Mark Twain said this this about India, its religion and culture:

``So far as I am able to judge, nothing has been left undone, either by man or nature, to make India the most extraordinary country that the sun visits on his rounds. Nothing seems to have been forgotten, nothing overlooked.``

``Land of religions, cradle of human race, birthplace of human speech, grandmother of legend, great grandmother of tradition. The land that all men desire to see and having seen once even by a glimpse, would not give that glimpse for the shows of the rest of the globe combined.``

``India had the start of the whole world in the beginning of things. She had the first civilization; she had the first accumulation of material wealth; she was populous with deep thinkers and subtle intellects; she had mines, and woods, and a fruitful soul.``.

Travelling thr` India, the famous American author also remarked:

``India has two million gods, and worships them all. In religion all other countries are paupers; India is the only millionaire.``

6. This is what the world famous historian Arnold Toynbee had to say about Hindu religion and culture:

``It is already becoming clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in self-destruction of the human race. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history, the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together in to a single family.``

Recognising the hindu tolerance, he had this to say:

``There may or may not be only one single absolute truth and only one single ultimate way of salvation. We do not know. But we do know that there are more approaches to truth than one, and more means of salvation than one. This is a hard saying for adherents of the higher religions of the Judaic family (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), but it is a truism for Hindus. The spirit of mutual good-will, esteem, and veritable love ... is the traditional spirit of the religions of the Indian family. This is one of India’s gifts to the world.`` (Source: ``A study of History`` a 12 volume book published between 1934 and 1961).

7. Victor Cousin, (1792-1867) eminent French philosopher, whose knowledge of the his