Road Blocks in Normalising Relations
Bundchungal September 8, 2002
#55 Posted by rsridhar on September 26, 2002 9:44:53 pm
re: Pak cricketers cry foul at India`s spectacular victory against S.Africa
Talk about heart-burn and jealousy! Such has been the nature of relationship between the 2 neighbours that, when one celebrates, the other mourns.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=247301
Sridhar
Talk about heart-burn and jealousy! Such has been the nature of relationship between the 2 neighbours that, when one celebrates, the other mourns.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=247301
Sridhar
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#54 Posted by rsridhar on September 26, 2002 9:06:10 am
re: Is Kashmir so vital for Pak?
The following article in Dawn analyses Pak`s obsession with Kashmir and the repercussions. It was so good that i am posting the entire article here.
``Courage to compromise
By Amin M. Lakhani
Pakistan`s singular preoccupation with Kashmir, subordinating it to all other priorities, has been self-defeating. Domestically, it has thwarted the country`s economic, social and political development.
Internationally, this single-point agenda has diminished the country`s stature and smeared its reputation. Even its spiritual development has been warped by the proliferation, popularization and increase in relative power - post-partition - of religious groups that represent an intolerant, militant and gender-biased interpretation of Islam.
More importantly, this involvement with Kashmir has prevented the acknowledgment, and hence resolution, of innumerable domestic problems, each more critical and bigger than Kashmir. A minimum of 19 Kashmir-sized problems in Pakistan are clamouring for attention. Consider for example:
Political rights: The 145 million people of Pakistan are crying for the right of self-determination of the 13 million people of Kashmir. Fair enough. There are strong historical, geographical and religious reasons for them to do so. Moreover, this issue is inexorably linked with the very idea of Pakistan. But what political rights have the people of Pakistan themselves have enjoyed over the past 55 years, or can expect to enjoy in the future?
The past has been (mis)ruled by generals, bureaucrats and politicians. The future under the best case will be a ``managed democracy`` where the sovereignty of its people and their elected representatives will be checked by an extraconstitutional body. Under the worst case, history will repeat itself, with the country swinging between fake democracy and naked dictatorship`. Either way, 145 million Pakistanis, equal to 11 times the population of Kashmir, will continue to be denied the rights enshrined in their own Constitution. Can Pakistan demand, with a straight face, rights for another people when it has consistently denied political rights to its own for over 50 years?
Poverty: According to SPDC, approximately 38 per cent of the population lived below the poverty line in 2000-2001 - that is 55 million people, equivalent to the population of four Kashmirs. Are Pakistan`s efforts to eradicate poverty, as measured by its budgetary allocations as focused and forceful as its efforts to keep the pot boiling in Kashmir? Did the ruling elite, whether civil or military, seek the consent of the 55 million impoverished people to find out if they voluntarily agreed to subordinate the alleviation of their poverty to Kashmir?
Education: The World Bank states that in 2000, 54 per cent of the population above 15 is illiterate. With the population of those above 15 years of age at 85 million, this yields an adult illiterate population of 46 million - over three times the population of Kashmir. This number excludes the millions under 15 who cannot attend school because of a lack of accessibility or affordability.
Is the benefit to Pakistan from the restoration of the political rights to 13 million Kashmiris so much greater than the cost and shame of raising an Islamic republic of 46 million illiterates? Did 46 million Pakistanis voluntarily agree to remain illiterate so that the nation could maintain a certain defence and foreign policy posture or pursue `development` of the `Motorway and Convention Centre` kind? Pakistan`s spending on education has stagnated around two per cent of GDP, while spending on defence ranges between five per cent and seven per cent.
Health care: Again, according to the World Bank, in 1999 the infant mortality rate was 126 per 1,000 live births for children under five years of age. In comparison, the figure in Malaysia was 10. How many deaths would have been avoided if Pakistan`s rate matched Malaysia`s? The arithmetic shows that over 403,000 children are unnecessarily dying in Pakistan every year for lack of investment in basic health care. At this rate as many Pakistani infants as the entire current population of Kashmir have died over the past 32 years.
What kind of country, let alone an Islamic republic, allows its infants to perish when the means to avoid this tragic loss exists? But this is what happens when budgetary allocations for defence take priority over human-capital development. Kashmir is important, but one is not aware of any war there in which over 1,100 children die every day.
Politicians hold rallies, marches and hurl threats at India when Kashmiris die. Fair enough. But why aren`t they outraged at the daily silent deaths of Pakistani children? How come the generals who are so keen to defend Pakistan against its external enemies have not declared war on the biggest killer of Pakistani children operating within Pakistan`s borders? This indifference continues with other pillars of society. Why are the ulema silent? Shouldn`t the HRCP be suing the finance and health ministries for misplaced priorities and poor implementation respectively? Shouldn`t the Supreme Court be taking suo motu action?
Based on this admittedly non-rigorous analysis, there are at least 19 Kashmir-size problems in Pakistan today; the exact number is probably higher. This is because the victims of unemployment, of the unavailability of potable water, electricity, sanitation and housing, of gender bias, human-rights violations, minority harassment and sectarianism have not been counted. This calculation also excludes the `stranded, Pakistanis` forgotten by Pakistan. Remember East Pakistan?
Today`s Bangladesh, with a population of 134 million, is equal to 10 Kashmirs. It is ironic that Pakistan has been so mesmerized by Kashmir that it is willing to risk nuclear war over it, yet was insensitive and inflexible on the dialogue and political accommodation needed to retain East Pakistan, a province 10 times the size of Kashmir. History may repeat itself if the pursuit of Kashmir continues while ignoring other pressing national priorities like grievances of the smaller provinces.
The Pakistani leadership made a courageous decision after Sept. 11 by cutting its ties with the Taliban, and actively supporting the world coalition against terrorism. Whatever pressures may have been applied, the decision to abandon a failed and indefensible policy is justified simply on the premise that ``Pakistan Comes First``.
The time has come for another momentous decision for the same reason. Pakistan should permanently cease its backing for any military action in Indian-controlled Kashmir. It should disarm all militants and disband all supporting camps and training facilities. However, Pakistan should continue to provide moral, diplomatic and political support to indigenous forces fighting for their political rights. This policy will reduce tensions with India and allow Pakistan to concentrate on conquering the dozens of internal Kashmir-sized problems.
It is the responsibility of Pakistan`s elite to inform, explain and reiterate these sobering truths to the people: First, that Kashmir cannot be liberated militarily - even Gen. Musharraf admits that. Second, India will make Pakistan pay a very heavy price for supporting cross-border militancy. If Pakistan believes it can play the nuclear card, it must also know that although a nuclear exchange may severely damage India, it will destroy Pakistan.
A poll conducted in Indian Jammu and Kashmir by the British group, Friends of Kashmir, revealed that more than 65 per cent of respondents wanted independence from both India and Pakistan as their final objective. But if that is what Kashmiris want, why are 145 million Pakistanis subordinating every national objective to a delusion?
Finally it is self-destructive for a $65-billion economy to get into a bleeding match with a $450-billion economy. This confrontation becomes suicidal when the larger economy has additional `force multipliers` like three times the technical intensity, two times the savings rate, half the per capita debt, higher GDP growth rate and a robust democratic political system.
Gen. Musharraf should act upon the same advice he gave the people of Bangladesh recently when he said that the ``courage to compromise is greater than to confront.`` If Pakistan is willing to forgo confrontation, its youth at least have the prospect of transforming Jinnah`s vision into reality by the sunset of their lifetime.
The writer is a Pakistani-American who lives in Atlanta. His e-mail address: aminlakhani@mirant.com. ``
Sridhar
The following article in Dawn analyses Pak`s obsession with Kashmir and the repercussions. It was so good that i am posting the entire article here.
``Courage to compromise
By Amin M. Lakhani
Pakistan`s singular preoccupation with Kashmir, subordinating it to all other priorities, has been self-defeating. Domestically, it has thwarted the country`s economic, social and political development.
Internationally, this single-point agenda has diminished the country`s stature and smeared its reputation. Even its spiritual development has been warped by the proliferation, popularization and increase in relative power - post-partition - of religious groups that represent an intolerant, militant and gender-biased interpretation of Islam.
More importantly, this involvement with Kashmir has prevented the acknowledgment, and hence resolution, of innumerable domestic problems, each more critical and bigger than Kashmir. A minimum of 19 Kashmir-sized problems in Pakistan are clamouring for attention. Consider for example:
Political rights: The 145 million people of Pakistan are crying for the right of self-determination of the 13 million people of Kashmir. Fair enough. There are strong historical, geographical and religious reasons for them to do so. Moreover, this issue is inexorably linked with the very idea of Pakistan. But what political rights have the people of Pakistan themselves have enjoyed over the past 55 years, or can expect to enjoy in the future?
The past has been (mis)ruled by generals, bureaucrats and politicians. The future under the best case will be a ``managed democracy`` where the sovereignty of its people and their elected representatives will be checked by an extraconstitutional body. Under the worst case, history will repeat itself, with the country swinging between fake democracy and naked dictatorship`. Either way, 145 million Pakistanis, equal to 11 times the population of Kashmir, will continue to be denied the rights enshrined in their own Constitution. Can Pakistan demand, with a straight face, rights for another people when it has consistently denied political rights to its own for over 50 years?
Poverty: According to SPDC, approximately 38 per cent of the population lived below the poverty line in 2000-2001 - that is 55 million people, equivalent to the population of four Kashmirs. Are Pakistan`s efforts to eradicate poverty, as measured by its budgetary allocations as focused and forceful as its efforts to keep the pot boiling in Kashmir? Did the ruling elite, whether civil or military, seek the consent of the 55 million impoverished people to find out if they voluntarily agreed to subordinate the alleviation of their poverty to Kashmir?
Education: The World Bank states that in 2000, 54 per cent of the population above 15 is illiterate. With the population of those above 15 years of age at 85 million, this yields an adult illiterate population of 46 million - over three times the population of Kashmir. This number excludes the millions under 15 who cannot attend school because of a lack of accessibility or affordability.
Is the benefit to Pakistan from the restoration of the political rights to 13 million Kashmiris so much greater than the cost and shame of raising an Islamic republic of 46 million illiterates? Did 46 million Pakistanis voluntarily agree to remain illiterate so that the nation could maintain a certain defence and foreign policy posture or pursue `development` of the `Motorway and Convention Centre` kind? Pakistan`s spending on education has stagnated around two per cent of GDP, while spending on defence ranges between five per cent and seven per cent.
Health care: Again, according to the World Bank, in 1999 the infant mortality rate was 126 per 1,000 live births for children under five years of age. In comparison, the figure in Malaysia was 10. How many deaths would have been avoided if Pakistan`s rate matched Malaysia`s? The arithmetic shows that over 403,000 children are unnecessarily dying in Pakistan every year for lack of investment in basic health care. At this rate as many Pakistani infants as the entire current population of Kashmir have died over the past 32 years.
What kind of country, let alone an Islamic republic, allows its infants to perish when the means to avoid this tragic loss exists? But this is what happens when budgetary allocations for defence take priority over human-capital development. Kashmir is important, but one is not aware of any war there in which over 1,100 children die every day.
Politicians hold rallies, marches and hurl threats at India when Kashmiris die. Fair enough. But why aren`t they outraged at the daily silent deaths of Pakistani children? How come the generals who are so keen to defend Pakistan against its external enemies have not declared war on the biggest killer of Pakistani children operating within Pakistan`s borders? This indifference continues with other pillars of society. Why are the ulema silent? Shouldn`t the HRCP be suing the finance and health ministries for misplaced priorities and poor implementation respectively? Shouldn`t the Supreme Court be taking suo motu action?
Based on this admittedly non-rigorous analysis, there are at least 19 Kashmir-size problems in Pakistan today; the exact number is probably higher. This is because the victims of unemployment, of the unavailability of potable water, electricity, sanitation and housing, of gender bias, human-rights violations, minority harassment and sectarianism have not been counted. This calculation also excludes the `stranded, Pakistanis` forgotten by Pakistan. Remember East Pakistan?
Today`s Bangladesh, with a population of 134 million, is equal to 10 Kashmirs. It is ironic that Pakistan has been so mesmerized by Kashmir that it is willing to risk nuclear war over it, yet was insensitive and inflexible on the dialogue and political accommodation needed to retain East Pakistan, a province 10 times the size of Kashmir. History may repeat itself if the pursuit of Kashmir continues while ignoring other pressing national priorities like grievances of the smaller provinces.
The Pakistani leadership made a courageous decision after Sept. 11 by cutting its ties with the Taliban, and actively supporting the world coalition against terrorism. Whatever pressures may have been applied, the decision to abandon a failed and indefensible policy is justified simply on the premise that ``Pakistan Comes First``.
The time has come for another momentous decision for the same reason. Pakistan should permanently cease its backing for any military action in Indian-controlled Kashmir. It should disarm all militants and disband all supporting camps and training facilities. However, Pakistan should continue to provide moral, diplomatic and political support to indigenous forces fighting for their political rights. This policy will reduce tensions with India and allow Pakistan to concentrate on conquering the dozens of internal Kashmir-sized problems.
It is the responsibility of Pakistan`s elite to inform, explain and reiterate these sobering truths to the people: First, that Kashmir cannot be liberated militarily - even Gen. Musharraf admits that. Second, India will make Pakistan pay a very heavy price for supporting cross-border militancy. If Pakistan believes it can play the nuclear card, it must also know that although a nuclear exchange may severely damage India, it will destroy Pakistan.
A poll conducted in Indian Jammu and Kashmir by the British group, Friends of Kashmir, revealed that more than 65 per cent of respondents wanted independence from both India and Pakistan as their final objective. But if that is what Kashmiris want, why are 145 million Pakistanis subordinating every national objective to a delusion?
Finally it is self-destructive for a $65-billion economy to get into a bleeding match with a $450-billion economy. This confrontation becomes suicidal when the larger economy has additional `force multipliers` like three times the technical intensity, two times the savings rate, half the per capita debt, higher GDP growth rate and a robust democratic political system.
Gen. Musharraf should act upon the same advice he gave the people of Bangladesh recently when he said that the ``courage to compromise is greater than to confront.`` If Pakistan is willing to forgo confrontation, its youth at least have the prospect of transforming Jinnah`s vision into reality by the sunset of their lifetime.
The writer is a Pakistani-American who lives in Atlanta. His e-mail address: aminlakhani@mirant.com. ``
Sridhar
#53 Posted by harimau on September 25, 2002 12:29:01 am
Ref 12-head #52
[Fanaticism is best behind closed doors like sexual orgies]
Unfortunately for you, your fanaticism is out in the open and you don`t have any sexual orgies though you might be permitted 4 wives.
[Fanaticism is best behind closed doors like sexual orgies]
Unfortunately for you, your fanaticism is out in the open and you don`t have any sexual orgies though you might be permitted 4 wives.
#52 Posted by AAmir on September 24, 2002 10:05:38 pm
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#51 Posted by harimau on September 23, 2002 9:51:47 pm
Ref Zero-Credit # 44
Do you think Arundhati Roay, a Christian (as you are fond of pointing out), has anything to say about this?
Signs removed from outside churches, security beefed up after maps of Christian sites found on suspected Islamic militants
Mon Sep 23,11:55 AM ET
By MUNIR AHMED, Associated Press Writer
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Police have removed signs from outside a number of churches around the country and fortified others with sandbag bunkers after finding evidence that Islamic militants may be planning new attacks, authorities said Monday.
The measures came after police in the southern port city of Karachi found handwritten maps of two churches and a Christian school, along with weapons and explosives, during the arrest of two suspected Islamic militants on Sunday, officials at the Interior Ministry told The Associated Press.
Police sources in Karachi said the Christian sites were all in central Karachi, and that the maps showed entry and exit points for a planned attack. The two men, both suspected members of the Harkat ul-Mujahedeen Al-Almi extremist group, had almost completed arrangements for an attack when they were arrested, police said. He didn`t elaborate on the method of attack.
Steps to safeguard churches are being conducted in several Pakistani cities. In Rawalpindi, just outside the capital, signs have been removed outside churches in an effort to make them less conspicuous, said Razzaq Janjua, a local police official. He said many of the churches had been set up inside private homes in the city.
``We are removing the signs for their own safety,`` he said.
In Multan, 335 kilometers (210 miles) southwest of the capital, authorities have begun erecting sandbag bunkers around some churches. The area in Punjab province has spawned a number of militant Sunni Muslim groups that have staged attacks against rival Shiite Muslims.
The violent Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, or Guardians of the Friends of the Prophet, is headquartered in Punjab province. Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, a radical group whose members have been linked to the kidnapping and execution of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, is an offshoot of the group.
A Christian leader and official at Bishop House in Rawalpindi, James Shamaun, said police were already on guard outside almost all the churches in Pakistan, and seemed to be more vigilant in recent days.
Some Christian officials questioned whether the move to remove the signs was intended to improve security or simply diminish the visibility of non-Muslim worshippers.
``The authorities just want to hide the worship places of Christians,`` said Shahbaz Bhatti, a leader of the All-Pakistan Minorities Alliance, which represents leaders of Christian churches.
Another Christian official, former lawmaker Salim Khurshid Khokhar, said removing the signs may make Christians feel even less secure, for fear it may lead to limits on practicing their faith.
``It is very strange that we are being asked to worship at undisclosed locations,`` he said.
Yet there was no attempt to remove crosses or disguise the large cathedrals and churches that exist in cities throughout Pakistan.
Christians make up a small minority in Pakistan, where about 97 percent of the population is Muslim.
A string of violent assaults on Christian organizations have killed 30 people and injured about 100 since President Pervez Musharraf gave his support to the anti-terror campaign.
On Aug. 9, three men threw grenades at women leaving a church service on the grounds of a Presbyterian hospital outside of Islamabad, killing four nurses and wounding 25 people.
Four days earlier, several attackers raided a Christian school about 60 kilometers (40 miles) east of Islamabad, killing six Pakistanis including guards and non-teaching staff.
And on March 17, a grenade attack on a Protestant church in Islamabad`s heavily guarded diplomatic quarter killed five people, including an American woman, her 17-year-old daughter and the lone assailant.
At least 23 members of Al-Almi have been arrested in Karachi in the past week. On Monday, a judge ordered three of the men held in police custody until at least Oct. 2 pending formal charges. The group is also suspected of being behind a June bombing outside the U.S. Consulate, a suicide car bomb in May that killed 11 French engineers and aborted plots to assassinate Pakistan`s president.
The effort to safeguard churches came as authorities continued to crack down on suspected al-Qaida militants trying to regroup on Pakistani soil, nabbing two men in a joint raid with FBI ( news - web sites) agents in the frontier city of Peshawar, near the border with Afghanistan ( news - web sites).
The men — Saeed-ur-Rehman of Pakistan and an Afghan national named Juma Din — were arrested Sunday evening at a home after authorities received a tip that they were staying there, Pakistani law enforcement officials told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.
Authorities seized documents, a computer and floppy disks at the home. The officials did not say what evidence led police to believe the men were al-Qaida members. They said the suspects were being interrogated by Pakistani police and FBI agents.
Pakistani and U.S. officials say hundreds, perhaps thousands, of al-Qaida and Taliban members have crossed into Pakistan after fleeing U.S. forces in Afghanistan. Pakistani security forces have arrested more than 400 suspected al-Qaida members during months of raids.
Do you think Arundhati Roay, a Christian (as you are fond of pointing out), has anything to say about this?
Signs removed from outside churches, security beefed up after maps of Christian sites found on suspected Islamic militants
Mon Sep 23,11:55 AM ET
By MUNIR AHMED, Associated Press Writer
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Police have removed signs from outside a number of churches around the country and fortified others with sandbag bunkers after finding evidence that Islamic militants may be planning new attacks, authorities said Monday.
The measures came after police in the southern port city of Karachi found handwritten maps of two churches and a Christian school, along with weapons and explosives, during the arrest of two suspected Islamic militants on Sunday, officials at the Interior Ministry told The Associated Press.
Police sources in Karachi said the Christian sites were all in central Karachi, and that the maps showed entry and exit points for a planned attack. The two men, both suspected members of the Harkat ul-Mujahedeen Al-Almi extremist group, had almost completed arrangements for an attack when they were arrested, police said. He didn`t elaborate on the method of attack.
Steps to safeguard churches are being conducted in several Pakistani cities. In Rawalpindi, just outside the capital, signs have been removed outside churches in an effort to make them less conspicuous, said Razzaq Janjua, a local police official. He said many of the churches had been set up inside private homes in the city.
``We are removing the signs for their own safety,`` he said.
In Multan, 335 kilometers (210 miles) southwest of the capital, authorities have begun erecting sandbag bunkers around some churches. The area in Punjab province has spawned a number of militant Sunni Muslim groups that have staged attacks against rival Shiite Muslims.
The violent Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, or Guardians of the Friends of the Prophet, is headquartered in Punjab province. Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, a radical group whose members have been linked to the kidnapping and execution of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, is an offshoot of the group.
A Christian leader and official at Bishop House in Rawalpindi, James Shamaun, said police were already on guard outside almost all the churches in Pakistan, and seemed to be more vigilant in recent days.
Some Christian officials questioned whether the move to remove the signs was intended to improve security or simply diminish the visibility of non-Muslim worshippers.
``The authorities just want to hide the worship places of Christians,`` said Shahbaz Bhatti, a leader of the All-Pakistan Minorities Alliance, which represents leaders of Christian churches.
Another Christian official, former lawmaker Salim Khurshid Khokhar, said removing the signs may make Christians feel even less secure, for fear it may lead to limits on practicing their faith.
``It is very strange that we are being asked to worship at undisclosed locations,`` he said.
Yet there was no attempt to remove crosses or disguise the large cathedrals and churches that exist in cities throughout Pakistan.
Christians make up a small minority in Pakistan, where about 97 percent of the population is Muslim.
A string of violent assaults on Christian organizations have killed 30 people and injured about 100 since President Pervez Musharraf gave his support to the anti-terror campaign.
On Aug. 9, three men threw grenades at women leaving a church service on the grounds of a Presbyterian hospital outside of Islamabad, killing four nurses and wounding 25 people.
Four days earlier, several attackers raided a Christian school about 60 kilometers (40 miles) east of Islamabad, killing six Pakistanis including guards and non-teaching staff.
And on March 17, a grenade attack on a Protestant church in Islamabad`s heavily guarded diplomatic quarter killed five people, including an American woman, her 17-year-old daughter and the lone assailant.
At least 23 members of Al-Almi have been arrested in Karachi in the past week. On Monday, a judge ordered three of the men held in police custody until at least Oct. 2 pending formal charges. The group is also suspected of being behind a June bombing outside the U.S. Consulate, a suicide car bomb in May that killed 11 French engineers and aborted plots to assassinate Pakistan`s president.
The effort to safeguard churches came as authorities continued to crack down on suspected al-Qaida militants trying to regroup on Pakistani soil, nabbing two men in a joint raid with FBI ( news - web sites) agents in the frontier city of Peshawar, near the border with Afghanistan ( news - web sites).
The men — Saeed-ur-Rehman of Pakistan and an Afghan national named Juma Din — were arrested Sunday evening at a home after authorities received a tip that they were staying there, Pakistani law enforcement officials told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.
Authorities seized documents, a computer and floppy disks at the home. The officials did not say what evidence led police to believe the men were al-Qaida members. They said the suspects were being interrogated by Pakistani police and FBI agents.
Pakistani and U.S. officials say hundreds, perhaps thousands, of al-Qaida and Taliban members have crossed into Pakistan after fleeing U.S. forces in Afghanistan. Pakistani security forces have arrested more than 400 suspected al-Qaida members during months of raids.
#50 Posted by rsridhar on September 23, 2002 9:19:06 am
re: editorial in SAtribune
Shaheen Sehbai says it all:
http://www.satribune.com/archives/sep23_29_02/opinion_editorsdesk.htm
Sridhar
Shaheen Sehbai says it all:
http://www.satribune.com/archives/sep23_29_02/opinion_editorsdesk.htm
Sridhar
#49 Posted by harimau on September 21, 2002 7:20:03 am
Ref AmericanExpress #44
[1/mAY BE aRUNDHATI WONT GET ELECTED B/C CHRISTIANS ARE LESS THAN 3% AND decreasing!]
Didn`t prevent George Fernandes from becoming an MP or becoming Minister of Defence. On the other hand, if a Muslim dDOESN`T get a job, it is because he is discriminated against and if he DOES get a job. it is tokenism.
[3/Regarding Madrsah which is equivalent to Paat Shaala ..I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT MOST NOBEL LAURETES NOT ONE OF THEM GRADUATED FROM THERE .What then is your pontless point ?]
At least, paatshaala graduates are not applying to flying schools.
[1/mAY BE aRUNDHATI WONT GET ELECTED B/C CHRISTIANS ARE LESS THAN 3% AND decreasing!]
Didn`t prevent George Fernandes from becoming an MP or becoming Minister of Defence. On the other hand, if a Muslim dDOESN`T get a job, it is because he is discriminated against and if he DOES get a job. it is tokenism.
[3/Regarding Madrsah which is equivalent to Paat Shaala ..I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT MOST NOBEL LAURETES NOT ONE OF THEM GRADUATED FROM THERE .What then is your pontless point ?]
At least, paatshaala graduates are not applying to flying schools.
#47 Posted by rsridhar on September 18, 2002 7:17:13 pm
re:#45 by AmericanExpress
I believe this drama is going to be played to a bigger audience in future elections. BJP will claim credit for having done honors to hindus in Gujarat. I am sure the people will see thr` its game. BJP is in for bad times. It gave its best shot in Gujarat and failed. It will become more Talibanisque in future. That will only reflect its desperation.
Anyway, secularists control the media, which now-a-days dictates public opinion. If BJP does not change, we may be soon seeing the beginning of an end for this party.
Sridhar
I believe this drama is going to be played to a bigger audience in future elections. BJP will claim credit for having done honors to hindus in Gujarat. I am sure the people will see thr` its game. BJP is in for bad times. It gave its best shot in Gujarat and failed. It will become more Talibanisque in future. That will only reflect its desperation.
Anyway, secularists control the media, which now-a-days dictates public opinion. If BJP does not change, we may be soon seeing the beginning of an end for this party.
Sridhar
#46 Posted by RLeonard on September 18, 2002 3:40:21 pm
#45 camel Express
Let us hear about your maulana-ness talk about a real maulana - that is Waheedudin Khan of Dehli. Come on let us hear you talk about him , not about some upcoming writer who is trying to come to terms with reality .
Let us hear about your maulana-ness talk about a real maulana - that is Waheedudin Khan of Dehli. Come on let us hear you talk about him , not about some upcoming writer who is trying to come to terms with reality .
#43 Posted by harimau on September 18, 2002 6:20:37 am
Ref AmericanExpress #36
[Is there any Brahmin half bred or Full ,even 1/10th the talent of ARUNDHATI ROY ?????
HaramiOu ,Jay,Layman,Arjun_m,BundChungal,RSridhar,Veeresh anyONE???]
If you want to look at only Literature, VS Naipaul has won the Nobel Prize whereas Arundhati Roy has won only the Booker Prize.
CV Raman and S Chandrasekhar have both won Nobel Prizes in Physics.
Viswanathan Anand is contender for World Champion of Chess.
In politics, Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi and Atal Behari Vajpayee are full-booded brahmins as is Jayalalitha, the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. Arundhati Roy is not likely to get elected dog catcher in any constituency in India.
Don`t ask questions for which there is a fitting reply.
By the way, are there any madrassah graduates who have accomplishments to their credit except flying planes into buildings?
[Is there any Brahmin half bred or Full ,even 1/10th the talent of ARUNDHATI ROY ?????
HaramiOu ,Jay,Layman,Arjun_m,BundChungal,RSridhar,Veeresh anyONE???]
If you want to look at only Literature, VS Naipaul has won the Nobel Prize whereas Arundhati Roy has won only the Booker Prize.
CV Raman and S Chandrasekhar have both won Nobel Prizes in Physics.
Viswanathan Anand is contender for World Champion of Chess.
In politics, Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi and Atal Behari Vajpayee are full-booded brahmins as is Jayalalitha, the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. Arundhati Roy is not likely to get elected dog catcher in any constituency in India.
Don`t ask questions for which there is a fitting reply.
By the way, are there any madrassah graduates who have accomplishments to their credit except flying planes into buildings?
#41 Posted by rsridhar on September 17, 2002 3:22:03 pm
re:#39 by AmericanExpress
First of all, let me say that i agree that what happened in Gujarat was a pogrom. I (and many other indian chowkies) have said so in many of my posts. To me, the muslim blood lost is as precious as the Hindu blood.
But i do not view this so much as a religious issue (most Pakistanis in chowk seem to view it as such)as an ideological issue. Today, a great fight is going on in India between the secular and the ``hindutva`` elements. Majority of secular elements are actually hindus. If the secular brigade were only the minorities, you can rest assured that they stand no chance in this fight against fundamentalist elements. However, that is not the case. The hindutva elements are very vocal, very violent but are actually outnumbered by the secular elements.
Gujarat was a test case. Had there been no resistance to what happened, the fire would have spread all over the country (certainly to the nearby state of Maharashtra where another buffoon by name of Bal Thackeray is waiting in the wings). This did not happen. Much of the credit must go to the press (excluding some local vernacular press) and TV which reported this in a fair manner. BJP took a chance and has seen what the mood of the country is and is trying to backtrack.
However, all is not perfect with the system. Gujarat govt should have been dismissed and Modi should have been facing a criminal law suit. But the perpetrators of the crime (BJP in center) are not going to dismiss or punish their own creation. There should have been an autonomous supervisory body but there is none. In such a situation, one has only to hope that nemesis will catch up with Mr Modi one day, as it eventually does with all murderers and cheap thugs. Until then, all that the people can do is to vote this party out whereever and in whatever form it contests elections. I hope this will happen.
Sridhar
First of all, let me say that i agree that what happened in Gujarat was a pogrom. I (and many other indian chowkies) have said so in many of my posts. To me, the muslim blood lost is as precious as the Hindu blood.
But i do not view this so much as a religious issue (most Pakistanis in chowk seem to view it as such)as an ideological issue. Today, a great fight is going on in India between the secular and the ``hindutva`` elements. Majority of secular elements are actually hindus. If the secular brigade were only the minorities, you can rest assured that they stand no chance in this fight against fundamentalist elements. However, that is not the case. The hindutva elements are very vocal, very violent but are actually outnumbered by the secular elements.
Gujarat was a test case. Had there been no resistance to what happened, the fire would have spread all over the country (certainly to the nearby state of Maharashtra where another buffoon by name of Bal Thackeray is waiting in the wings). This did not happen. Much of the credit must go to the press (excluding some local vernacular press) and TV which reported this in a fair manner. BJP took a chance and has seen what the mood of the country is and is trying to backtrack.
However, all is not perfect with the system. Gujarat govt should have been dismissed and Modi should have been facing a criminal law suit. But the perpetrators of the crime (BJP in center) are not going to dismiss or punish their own creation. There should have been an autonomous supervisory body but there is none. In such a situation, one has only to hope that nemesis will catch up with Mr Modi one day, as it eventually does with all murderers and cheap thugs. Until then, all that the people can do is to vote this party out whereever and in whatever form it contests elections. I hope this will happen.
Sridhar
#40 Posted by stuka on September 17, 2002 11:53:28 am
Zafar:
``At least on Chowk, bhai, Urstruly is more than made up for on uss paar ka team by such luminaries as Hamidm, Ferozk, Semipreciousme, anNy, Tahmed, SameerJB, Binifer and many many others (including the good Field Marshal, yes). ``
LOL True true. I think the biggest problem Pakistanis have is that their religion forbids them to drink. People are far more relaxed about life if they sit back and enjoy a drink once in a while. Hitler was a teetotaller. Case closed.
``At least on Chowk, bhai, Urstruly is more than made up for on uss paar ka team by such luminaries as Hamidm, Ferozk, Semipreciousme, anNy, Tahmed, SameerJB, Binifer and many many others (including the good Field Marshal, yes). ``
LOL True true. I think the biggest problem Pakistanis have is that their religion forbids them to drink. People are far more relaxed about life if they sit back and enjoy a drink once in a while. Hitler was a teetotaller. Case closed.
#38 Posted by rsridhar on September 16, 2002 4:17:35 pm
re:#36 by AmericanExpress
``Is there any Brahmin half bred or Full ,even 1/10th the talent of ARUNDHATI ROY ?????``
She is obviously talented otherwise she would not have won a Brooker prize but what is your point?
Sridhar
``Is there any Brahmin half bred or Full ,even 1/10th the talent of ARUNDHATI ROY ?????``
She is obviously talented otherwise she would not have won a Brooker prize but what is your point?
Sridhar
#35 Posted by rsridhar on September 13, 2002 7:51:47 pm
re:#33 by hobbes
As i have said many times before, everyone likes a whore who satisfies the client to the fullest extent possible. Do you see Israel ever mentioned in the news? And yet it is a crucial ally. So is India. Only India will have to wait its turn. Today, Indian politicians are acting like jilted lovers. It is stupid. US will do to Mushy boy what it did to other dictators in the past- drop him like hot brick when he has served his purpose. And then it will forge a long time relationship with India to counter China`s threat. This clearly serves India`s purpose. But, before all this, the SH!T piled up by Taliban has to be cleared up. And who can do this job better than Mushy.
The bigger question you and other Pakistanis should be asking is: where is this guy taking your country. Has he not systematically dismantled all the foundations of democracy? Has he not made a mockery of the constitution and the electoral process? West tolerates him because he is towing their line. No wonder he has heavy security cover whereever he goes. In an effort to please his masters abroad (and thereby stay in power), he has incurred the displeasure of some powerful elements at home. Let us see how long this joker lasts.
Sridhar
As i have said many times before, everyone likes a whore who satisfies the client to the fullest extent possible. Do you see Israel ever mentioned in the news? And yet it is a crucial ally. So is India. Only India will have to wait its turn. Today, Indian politicians are acting like jilted lovers. It is stupid. US will do to Mushy boy what it did to other dictators in the past- drop him like hot brick when he has served his purpose. And then it will forge a long time relationship with India to counter China`s threat. This clearly serves India`s purpose. But, before all this, the SH!T piled up by Taliban has to be cleared up. And who can do this job better than Mushy.
The bigger question you and other Pakistanis should be asking is: where is this guy taking your country. Has he not systematically dismantled all the foundations of democracy? Has he not made a mockery of the constitution and the electoral process? West tolerates him because he is towing their line. No wonder he has heavy security cover whereever he goes. In an effort to please his masters abroad (and thereby stay in power), he has incurred the displeasure of some powerful elements at home. Let us see how long this joker lasts.
Sridhar
#34 Posted by hari on September 13, 2002 1:35:02 pm
#33 Hobbes:
Well, you can toot your own horn.
ABV spoke well and to the point. Re Think Tanks or whatever, the same leaders of think tank(Jewish lobby groups) invited India for consultations, as well.
Anyway, this is something I found in Jang, a frustrated Pakistani in Malaysia:
*******************
Govt urged to help Pakistanis
I am a Pakistani living in Malaysia and want to draw the attention of the Pakistan government towards the tyrannical policies of the Malaysian immigration against Pakistanis.
The Malaysian government is punishing Pakistanis ruthlessly for violating immigration laws.
The act of the Malaysian authorities is the violation of worldwide human rights and immigration laws.
No doubt, every government reserves the right to punish the illegal immigrants within in the jurisdiction of law, but crossing the limits of law is a sheer crime.
In Malaysia, all doors have been opened for Indians but they remain closed for Pakistanis.
I request the government of Pakistan to save its nationals from the atrocities of the Malaysian immigration authorities.
A Pakistani from Malaysia
****************
What matters is ground reality.
Well, you can toot your own horn.
ABV spoke well and to the point. Re Think Tanks or whatever, the same leaders of think tank(Jewish lobby groups) invited India for consultations, as well.
Anyway, this is something I found in Jang, a frustrated Pakistani in Malaysia:
*******************
Govt urged to help Pakistanis
I am a Pakistani living in Malaysia and want to draw the attention of the Pakistan government towards the tyrannical policies of the Malaysian immigration against Pakistanis.
The Malaysian government is punishing Pakistanis ruthlessly for violating immigration laws.
The act of the Malaysian authorities is the violation of worldwide human rights and immigration laws.
No doubt, every government reserves the right to punish the illegal immigrants within in the jurisdiction of law, but crossing the limits of law is a sheer crime.
In Malaysia, all doors have been opened for Indians but they remain closed for Pakistanis.
I request the government of Pakistan to save its nationals from the atrocities of the Malaysian immigration authorities.
A Pakistani from Malaysia
****************
What matters is ground reality.
#33 Posted by hobbes on September 13, 2002 1:27:13 pm
Pervaiz Musharraf scores big in the US
Standing Ovations, invitations to address think tanks and media outlets, yet Indian sulk, complaining that they are disappointed with the US. Cross border terrorism the Indian say, Kofi Annan, speaking for the world says captive Kashmir is now in the focus of the international community - Coersuve diplomacy paid off - just not the way the Indian thought it would. Internationally isolated becuaseo f it`s repressive policy in captive Kashmir and it`s role in the murder of more than 2000 Muslims in Gujjrat, the Hindu fanatic government licks it`s wounds and this promises that they will create even more tension in relations with pakistan.
#31 Posted by ZafarA on September 11, 2002 8:46:37 pm
Reply Stuka #27
“…but when an Islamist Pakistani talks of fascist Hindus etc, I don`t know whether to laugh at their faces or to punch my fist in their skull.”
Might I suggest that laughing is the better option? Nahin tho cyberfist, cyberskull…get my point, no?
“Urstruly or a Hobbyty, openly Islamist, telling us to be secular ...that is a joke and a half.”
At least on Chowk, bhai, Urstruly is more than made up for on uss paar ka team by such luminaries as Hamidm, Ferozk, Semipreciousme, anNy, Tahmed, SameerJB, Binifer and many many others (including the good Field Marshal, yes). If it’s any comfort I’m sure “Islamists” irritate them more than they irritate you (though of course I myself enjoy these posts enormously. Urstruly bhai, please write more.)
“…but when an Islamist Pakistani talks of fascist Hindus etc, I don`t know whether to laugh at their faces or to punch my fist in their skull.”
Might I suggest that laughing is the better option? Nahin tho cyberfist, cyberskull…get my point, no?
“Urstruly or a Hobbyty, openly Islamist, telling us to be secular ...that is a joke and a half.”
At least on Chowk, bhai, Urstruly is more than made up for on uss paar ka team by such luminaries as Hamidm, Ferozk, Semipreciousme, anNy, Tahmed, SameerJB, Binifer and many many others (including the good Field Marshal, yes). If it’s any comfort I’m sure “Islamists” irritate them more than they irritate you (though of course I myself enjoy these posts enormously. Urstruly bhai, please write more.)
#30 Posted by ZafarA on September 11, 2002 8:46:37 pm
Reply Hari #28
Dear Hari,
“As regarding the previous posting of muslims not being allowed to hindu temples”
I do have a name, yaar. Did you miss it somehow?
“How I wish Muslims actually enter the temples on a devotional trip? Think about it. When CM Farouq Abdullah visited Venkataeshwara temple in Tirupathi/Andhra Pradesh, a lot of muslims from the muslim ummah were aghast and equated him to committing blasphemy by visiting a non-muslim place of worship!”
Look Maulana Hari, I actually think that visits to houses of worship are good for anybody who goes with the right attitude, and visiting places outside of your “own” tradition is as good for you – and also broadening.
Your response was clearly heartfelt, but you (I’m sure by mistake) neglected to address my point: you can enter ANY mosque or dargah in India. (How many times have you done this, btw?) Non-Hindus CANNOT enter some of the temples in India. If all Hindus are automatically so inclusive and tolerant, while all Muslims are so intolerant and exclusivist, what is that all about?
“Post 9/11,the world is getting smarter! They are telling Islamists and islamic countries, Sc#ew You!”
If you were getting smarter you logic would be better. (Just kidding. Aap ka logic agle janam mein hi sudharega...shayad...joke, yaar, joke…don’t be cross)
Best Regards
(yeh hua politeness, yeh hue manners...)
Zafar
Dear Hari,
“As regarding the previous posting of muslims not being allowed to hindu temples”
I do have a name, yaar. Did you miss it somehow?
“How I wish Muslims actually enter the temples on a devotional trip? Think about it. When CM Farouq Abdullah visited Venkataeshwara temple in Tirupathi/Andhra Pradesh, a lot of muslims from the muslim ummah were aghast and equated him to committing blasphemy by visiting a non-muslim place of worship!”
Look Maulana Hari, I actually think that visits to houses of worship are good for anybody who goes with the right attitude, and visiting places outside of your “own” tradition is as good for you – and also broadening.
Your response was clearly heartfelt, but you (I’m sure by mistake) neglected to address my point: you can enter ANY mosque or dargah in India. (How many times have you done this, btw?) Non-Hindus CANNOT enter some of the temples in India. If all Hindus are automatically so inclusive and tolerant, while all Muslims are so intolerant and exclusivist, what is that all about?
“Post 9/11,the world is getting smarter! They are telling Islamists and islamic countries, Sc#ew You!”
If you were getting smarter you logic would be better. (Just kidding. Aap ka logic agle janam mein hi sudharega...shayad...joke, yaar, joke…don’t be cross)
Best Regards
(yeh hua politeness, yeh hue manners...)
Zafar
#28 Posted by hari on September 11, 2002 12:52:23 pm
Stuka, # 27
Precisely my point. If Sweden, Norway talk about self-determination in a broader sense, even in the case of Kashmir or say, Tamil Nadu, it is palatable. I have no problem if Kashmir were to join, Sweden, Norway as those countries` constitution guarantees EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL, not EQUAL RIGHTS FOR MUSLIMS only.
The problem with Islamic Pakistan talking about self-determination for Kashmiris or for that matter any islamic country talking about self-determination for Chechens, Kashmir, Kosovo etc wants me to throw up.
Self-determination, from an islamic perspective always ends up, as ``islamic rule`` in any given country at the expense of, get this, NATIVE non-muslim population. Take Pakistan for instance, the islamic derived constitution is inherently wrong. The islamic constitution only allows EQUAL rights to muslims. Non-Muslims are excluded BY DESIGN, which is inherently non-democratic.
So, a Kashmiri ``Ahemedia`` for instance would be hauled away to jail just for reciting Islamic ``kalima``; similarly, a non-muslim kashmiri can NEVER aspire to become Pakistan`s president, prime-minister, etc.
I have heard a lot of vocalization from pakistani population that there is
only ``puppet`` Muslim Indian President. So, what? For starters, let me ask,
can Pakistan have ``puppet`` namke-vaste non-muslim Pakistan President?
If President Musharaff is President to ALL of Pakistan`s people, then
Why does Musharraf or for that matter former Prime Ministers greet
non-muslim Pakistanis for their religious holidays, say, Guru Nanak Birthday, Krishna Jayanthi? After all, these people are citizens of Pakistan, too? Right? even though they are a miniscule 3%.
As regarding the previous posting of muslims not being allowed to hindu temples; How I wish Muslims actually enter the temples on a devotional trip? Think about it. When CM Farouq Abdullah visited Venkataeshwara temple in Tirupathi/Andhra Pradesh, a lot of muslims from the muslim ummah were aghast and equated him to committing blasphemy by visiting a non-muslim place of worship!
Somehow, it has been ingrained in the Muslim Psyche that it is unbecoming of a muslim to visit a non-muslim temple, be it, sikh temple, jewish temple, hindu temple or greet non-muslims for their important religious holidays. It is only one-sided so far.
Prior to 9-11, the world community cared if muslims had problems and did what they could. Post 9-11, the world community has seen the shallowness of Islamists. Islamists seek justice for Chechens, Kashmiris, Bosnians, Palestinians but somehow they are silent on ``southern christian sudanese, Algerians(who are getting slaughtered), Tibetians, Taiwanese, Burmese?? Why? Pres Hosni Mubarak is vehemently opposed to splitting Sudan on ``Religious lines`` So, how come TNT doesn`t work there?
Post 9/11,the world is getting smarter! They are telling Islamists and islamic countries, Sc#ew You!
Precisely my point. If Sweden, Norway talk about self-determination in a broader sense, even in the case of Kashmir or say, Tamil Nadu, it is palatable. I have no problem if Kashmir were to join, Sweden, Norway as those countries` constitution guarantees EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL, not EQUAL RIGHTS FOR MUSLIMS only.
The problem with Islamic Pakistan talking about self-determination for Kashmiris or for that matter any islamic country talking about self-determination for Chechens, Kashmir, Kosovo etc wants me to throw up.
Self-determination, from an islamic perspective always ends up, as ``islamic rule`` in any given country at the expense of, get this, NATIVE non-muslim population. Take Pakistan for instance, the islamic derived constitution is inherently wrong. The islamic constitution only allows EQUAL rights to muslims. Non-Muslims are excluded BY DESIGN, which is inherently non-democratic.
So, a Kashmiri ``Ahemedia`` for instance would be hauled away to jail just for reciting Islamic ``kalima``; similarly, a non-muslim kashmiri can NEVER aspire to become Pakistan`s president, prime-minister, etc.
I have heard a lot of vocalization from pakistani population that there is
only ``puppet`` Muslim Indian President. So, what? For starters, let me ask,
can Pakistan have ``puppet`` namke-vaste non-muslim Pakistan President?
If President Musharaff is President to ALL of Pakistan`s people, then
Why does Musharraf or for that matter former Prime Ministers greet
non-muslim Pakistanis for their religious holidays, say, Guru Nanak Birthday, Krishna Jayanthi? After all, these people are citizens of Pakistan, too? Right? even though they are a miniscule 3%.
As regarding the previous posting of muslims not being allowed to hindu temples; How I wish Muslims actually enter the temples on a devotional trip? Think about it. When CM Farouq Abdullah visited Venkataeshwara temple in Tirupathi/Andhra Pradesh, a lot of muslims from the muslim ummah were aghast and equated him to committing blasphemy by visiting a non-muslim place of worship!
Somehow, it has been ingrained in the Muslim Psyche that it is unbecoming of a muslim to visit a non-muslim temple, be it, sikh temple, jewish temple, hindu temple or greet non-muslims for their important religious holidays. It is only one-sided so far.
Prior to 9-11, the world community cared if muslims had problems and did what they could. Post 9-11, the world community has seen the shallowness of Islamists. Islamists seek justice for Chechens, Kashmiris, Bosnians, Palestinians but somehow they are silent on ``southern christian sudanese, Algerians(who are getting slaughtered), Tibetians, Taiwanese, Burmese?? Why? Pres Hosni Mubarak is vehemently opposed to splitting Sudan on ``Religious lines`` So, how come TNT doesn`t work there?
Post 9/11,the world is getting smarter! They are telling Islamists and islamic countries, Sc#ew You!
#26 Posted by stuka on September 11, 2002 7:07:51 am
Zafar:
``So, if Hindutva is a fascist ideology, then, please, all those championing secular ideals for India, also proclaim, Islamiat in Islamic countries as ``fascist`` ideology as well. Please champion for secularism for those 61 odd countries as well away from their islamic theology states.``
Sometimes your tone strikes me as small hearted, but I agree with this point. Islamist thought and Hindutva are two sides of the same coin - if we support freedom of conscience and equality we should support it consistently. Neither of these ideologies do. ``
Agreed with your point. Which is why I think an Indian Muslim has the right to criticize Hindutva, but when an Islamist Pakistani talks of fascist Hindus etc, I don`t know whether to laugh at their faces or to punch my fist in their skull. Again, I say ``Islamist Pakistani`` and not Pakistani alone, because I think there are more of the latter than the former. I could take criticism of the BJP from someone like Samina or Semipreciousme or even Field Marshal Romair (who I think is often unjustly maligned just because he is slightly right of center), a Urstruly or a Hobbyty, openly Islamist, telling us to be secular ...that is a joke and a half.
``So, if Hindutva is a fascist ideology, then, please, all those championing secular ideals for India, also proclaim, Islamiat in Islamic countries as ``fascist`` ideology as well. Please champion for secularism for those 61 odd countries as well away from their islamic theology states.``
Sometimes your tone strikes me as small hearted, but I agree with this point. Islamist thought and Hindutva are two sides of the same coin - if we support freedom of conscience and equality we should support it consistently. Neither of these ideologies do. ``
Agreed with your point. Which is why I think an Indian Muslim has the right to criticize Hindutva, but when an Islamist Pakistani talks of fascist Hindus etc, I don`t know whether to laugh at their faces or to punch my fist in their skull. Again, I say ``Islamist Pakistani`` and not Pakistani alone, because I think there are more of the latter than the former. I could take criticism of the BJP from someone like Samina or Semipreciousme or even Field Marshal Romair (who I think is often unjustly maligned just because he is slightly right of center), a Urstruly or a Hobbyty, openly Islamist, telling us to be secular ...that is a joke and a half.
#25 Posted by ZafarA on September 11, 2002 6:28:50 am
Reply Hari #22
``So, if Hindutva is a fascist ideology, then, please, all those championing secular ideals for India, also proclaim, Islamiat in Islamic countries as ``fascist`` ideology as well. Please champion for secularism for those 61 odd countries as well away from their islamic theology states.``
Sometimes your tone strikes me as small hearted, but I agree with this point. Islamist thought and Hindutva are two sides of the same coin - if we support freedom of conscience and equality we should support it consistently. Neither of these ideologies do.
Buuuuuuuuut, Hari Mian, keep in mind that we`re from the subcontinent, we have a stake (and perhaps a say) in how things are and should be. Kya fayedah if we spend time chatting about places which we don`t know about or truly understand (like Saudi) instead of about our own countries?
``After all, a muslim can enter Ayodhya, but a non-muslim cannot enter Mecca. Am I correct?``
Correct, but as an Indian Muslim I can tell you there is not a SINGLE mosque or dargah in India where non-Muslims are not allowed. Cover your head and arms and you`re in. (I`ve even seen gori tourists wandering around the Heart Of Darkness, aka that clown Bukhari`s stomping ground, Delhi`s Jama Masjid.) On the other hand there are temples in India where non-Hindus are not allowed (and I`m not talking about ``non-Indians not allowed``, which is more common though equally unpleasant).
Regards
``So, if Hindutva is a fascist ideology, then, please, all those championing secular ideals for India, also proclaim, Islamiat in Islamic countries as ``fascist`` ideology as well. Please champion for secularism for those 61 odd countries as well away from their islamic theology states.``
Sometimes your tone strikes me as small hearted, but I agree with this point. Islamist thought and Hindutva are two sides of the same coin - if we support freedom of conscience and equality we should support it consistently. Neither of these ideologies do.
Buuuuuuuuut, Hari Mian, keep in mind that we`re from the subcontinent, we have a stake (and perhaps a say) in how things are and should be. Kya fayedah if we spend time chatting about places which we don`t know about or truly understand (like Saudi) instead of about our own countries?
``After all, a muslim can enter Ayodhya, but a non-muslim cannot enter Mecca. Am I correct?``
Correct, but as an Indian Muslim I can tell you there is not a SINGLE mosque or dargah in India where non-Muslims are not allowed. Cover your head and arms and you`re in. (I`ve even seen gori tourists wandering around the Heart Of Darkness, aka that clown Bukhari`s stomping ground, Delhi`s Jama Masjid.) On the other hand there are temples in India where non-Hindus are not allowed (and I`m not talking about ``non-Indians not allowed``, which is more common though equally unpleasant).
Regards
#24 Posted by rsridhar on September 11, 2002 6:28:49 am
re:#22 by hari
Hari,
Hindutva, as espoused by BJP and Sangh Parivar, is a vague concept. There was a time i used to support this concept (i thought i understood the concept then). That was when i thought hindutva was being talked about in a civilisational way. All belong to a broader ``hindu`` civilisation (hindu here being referred in a civilisational and not religious tone) and hence are hindus. I thought BJP was saying all are same regardless of their religion.
Then came Gujarat riots and my eyes opened to what BJP was really doing. If all were ``hindus``, as BJP said initially, why was there a pogrom in Gujarat? Why were innocent muslims killed? If BJP and Sangh parivar had treated all as equal, i would have bought their hindutva argument. Not any more.
As things stand, hindutva is just a ``vote catching gimmick`` used by BJP. It is an ideology to polorise the Indian society, to unite all hindus (who are other wise divided along caste lines) under one banner viz hatred against muslims. Sooner Indians see thr` this bigotry, better it is for India.
The real leaders of India are the ones who are creating jobs, enhancing our prestige abroad. People like Narayana Murthy of Infosys.
Read what he has to say about secularism (url below). It is funny that the guest of honor on the occasion of his speech was Mr Joshi, one of the Trimurthys of this Hindutva ideology. He was seen fidgeting, doodling and biting his fingers while Mr Murthy strongly defended secularism right in front of him! Secularism is here to stay. People like Joshi can`t do a thing about it.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=240539
Sridhar
Hari,
Hindutva, as espoused by BJP and Sangh Parivar, is a vague concept. There was a time i used to support this concept (i thought i understood the concept then). That was when i thought hindutva was being talked about in a civilisational way. All belong to a broader ``hindu`` civilisation (hindu here being referred in a civilisational and not religious tone) and hence are hindus. I thought BJP was saying all are same regardless of their religion.
Then came Gujarat riots and my eyes opened to what BJP was really doing. If all were ``hindus``, as BJP said initially, why was there a pogrom in Gujarat? Why were innocent muslims killed? If BJP and Sangh parivar had treated all as equal, i would have bought their hindutva argument. Not any more.
As things stand, hindutva is just a ``vote catching gimmick`` used by BJP. It is an ideology to polorise the Indian society, to unite all hindus (who are other wise divided along caste lines) under one banner viz hatred against muslims. Sooner Indians see thr` this bigotry, better it is for India.
The real leaders of India are the ones who are creating jobs, enhancing our prestige abroad. People like Narayana Murthy of Infosys.
Read what he has to say about secularism (url below). It is funny that the guest of honor on the occasion of his speech was Mr Joshi, one of the Trimurthys of this Hindutva ideology. He was seen fidgeting, doodling and biting his fingers while Mr Murthy strongly defended secularism right in front of him! Secularism is here to stay. People like Joshi can`t do a thing about it.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=240539
Sridhar
#22 Posted by hari on September 10, 2002 12:14:19 pm
Hobby:
A lot of people are against ``Hindutva``.
My question:
1. Is it wrong to be a Hindu?
2. If ``Hindutva`` with its self-proclaimed goal of turning India into a Hindu Rashtra is bad(which I agree), then on the same token, then,
Is Islamization bad? Why support ``islamic countries`` then? After all these 61+ odd ``islamic`` countries have made their countries into ``islamic`` bastions at the expense of native non-muslims. Am I correct?
So, if Hindutva is a fascist ideology, then, please, all those championing secular ideals for India, also proclaim, Islamiat in Islamic countries as ``fascist`` ideology as well. Please champion for secularism for those 61 odd countries as well away from their islamic theology states.
After all, a muslim can enter Ayodhya, but a non-muslim cannot enter Mecca. Am I correct?
A lot of people are against ``Hindutva``.
My question:
1. Is it wrong to be a Hindu?
2. If ``Hindutva`` with its self-proclaimed goal of turning India into a Hindu Rashtra is bad(which I agree), then on the same token, then,
Is Islamization bad? Why support ``islamic countries`` then? After all these 61+ odd ``islamic`` countries have made their countries into ``islamic`` bastions at the expense of native non-muslims. Am I correct?
So, if Hindutva is a fascist ideology, then, please, all those championing secular ideals for India, also proclaim, Islamiat in Islamic countries as ``fascist`` ideology as well. Please champion for secularism for those 61 odd countries as well away from their islamic theology states.
After all, a muslim can enter Ayodhya, but a non-muslim cannot enter Mecca. Am I correct?
#21 Posted by arjun_m on September 10, 2002 8:24:15 am
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#19 Posted by Banjaara on September 9, 2002 8:39:04 pm
I expected some originality in the nick from The Secretary,Govt. of India.As for the article, it is exactly what is expected from a Govt. servant.
#18 Posted by Banjaara on September 9, 2002 8:22:44 pm
pmishra2 # 17
``Fortunately, prejudice and a closed mind cannot be disguised by a display of five dollar words.``
Wise words. I hope you remember that in future.
Regards.
``Fortunately, prejudice and a closed mind cannot be disguised by a display of five dollar words.``
Wise words. I hope you remember that in future.
Regards.
#17 Posted by pmishra2 on September 9, 2002 7:34:36 pm
ugh, this hobbes is back with his polysyllabic inanities, now we are lost.
He will find some news item describing how some poor muslim indian was beaten by a policeman and favour us with a 1000-line proof of hindu perfidy.
Fortunately, prejudice and a closed mind cannot be disguised by a display of five dollar words. But I guess that isn`t going to stop him from trying....
He will find some news item describing how some poor muslim indian was beaten by a policeman and favour us with a 1000-line proof of hindu perfidy.
Fortunately, prejudice and a closed mind cannot be disguised by a display of five dollar words. But I guess that isn`t going to stop him from trying....
#15 Posted by hobbes on September 9, 2002 6:14:25 pm
Hindutva Speaks!
``At the heart of the Two Nation Theory laid religious communalism and after the creation of Pakistan it took a new shape in the form of the Islamic ideology of the State. Islamic ideology of Pakistan is thus the post partition face of the earlier religious communalism which had contributed to the creation of Pakistan. The conceptual antagonism against secularism now stands revealed as the consistent enmity against India. The Pakistani animus against India is not a post 1947 creation. Its roots run deep into the cultural history of the subcontinent.``
Religious communalism - such a wonderous, vague picture. Indians had no part in the creation of TNT - why butter won`t melt in their mouths. Them Mooselum had the gall to have a sense of nationalism and horror of horrors, they weren`t ready to tolerate what we just did in Gujjrat, to happen to them. See the victim is to blame, the victim did not wish to suffer us any further.
The animus of Pakistan? Again, no context - And the animus of the Indian? Kile I said butter doesn`t melt in their mouths - everyone else is responsibile for what happened to the Indian, except the Indian. And for the coup d`grace we have Pakistani animus has deep cultural roots - Duh! and the ``enslaved, debauched Indian``, his pride kicked out of his behind for a 1000 years - what of his animus?
Every kind of revision, obfuscation, abdication of responsibility is on the shoulders of the intellectuals of India. Cross border terrorism did not create the problems in captive kashmir - After 71 - the Indians have only themselves to blame for their failure. But it is easier to balme the ``Other`` - I understand - But not for much longer, the time for maturity and for difficult decisions is the burden of those who want a place in the sun.
``At the heart of the Two Nation Theory laid religious communalism and after the creation of Pakistan it took a new shape in the form of the Islamic ideology of the State. Islamic ideology of Pakistan is thus the post partition face of the earlier religious communalism which had contributed to the creation of Pakistan. The conceptual antagonism against secularism now stands revealed as the consistent enmity against India. The Pakistani animus against India is not a post 1947 creation. Its roots run deep into the cultural history of the subcontinent.``
Religious communalism - such a wonderous, vague picture. Indians had no part in the creation of TNT - why butter won`t melt in their mouths. Them Mooselum had the gall to have a sense of nationalism and horror of horrors, they weren`t ready to tolerate what we just did in Gujjrat, to happen to them. See the victim is to blame, the victim did not wish to suffer us any further.
The animus of Pakistan? Again, no context - And the animus of the Indian? Kile I said butter doesn`t melt in their mouths - everyone else is responsibile for what happened to the Indian, except the Indian. And for the coup d`grace we have Pakistani animus has deep cultural roots - Duh! and the ``enslaved, debauched Indian``, his pride kicked out of his behind for a 1000 years - what of his animus?
Every kind of revision, obfuscation, abdication of responsibility is on the shoulders of the intellectuals of India. Cross border terrorism did not create the problems in captive kashmir - After 71 - the Indians have only themselves to blame for their failure. But it is easier to balme the ``Other`` - I understand - But not for much longer, the time for maturity and for difficult decisions is the burden of those who want a place in the sun.
#14 Posted by hari on September 9, 2002 1:34:37 pm
I have wondered often, why the Pakistani establishment or even the populace, not condemned ``the mughal rule`` over India, beginning from Aurangazeb and going back to the muslim invasion of India.
In fact, the Pakistani establishment is keen on naming some of the imported North Korean missiles with names like ``ghauri``, etc who not only invaded India but plundered/pillaged India as well.
Why I am saying this; Pakistani establishment keeps lamenting about Muslim majority Kashmir. The arguement from the Pakistan has always been India being a non-muslim country cannot have any say over Muslim Kashmiris.
Then, proceeding with this arguement, then one would expect the same establishment to teach Pakistani population and children that the mughal period was indeed bad, since it was minority muslim establishment controlling an overall majority hindu/sikh population?
See my point? Why silence? Is it ok for minority muslim control over majority non-muslims, but not vice-versa?
In fact, the Pakistani establishment is keen on naming some of the imported North Korean missiles with names like ``ghauri``, etc who not only invaded India but plundered/pillaged India as well.
Why I am saying this; Pakistani establishment keeps lamenting about Muslim majority Kashmir. The arguement from the Pakistan has always been India being a non-muslim country cannot have any say over Muslim Kashmiris.
Then, proceeding with this arguement, then one would expect the same establishment to teach Pakistani population and children that the mughal period was indeed bad, since it was minority muslim establishment controlling an overall majority hindu/sikh population?
See my point? Why silence? Is it ok for minority muslim control over majority non-muslims, but not vice-versa?
#13 Posted by RLeonard on September 9, 2002 1:34:37 pm
A strong dose of Confucianism laced with Buddhism is the need of the hour for both Pakistan and India. The fatalism needs to be banished.
#12 Posted by Prem on September 9, 2002 12:32:43 pm
Too broad a brush there, bro.
I personally think we Indians do not develop a sufficiently fine-grained analysis of Pakistani populace. We often tend to lump all Pakistanis along with Pakistani generals and supporters, and reduce all Pakistani intellectual deliberations to militant and miltaristic ideologies. This is patently unfair, particularly to younger Pakistanis who decide to think for themselves. Such an approcah also overlooks the mirror images of all Pakistani evils that we have in developing our own country.
Individuals CAN make a difference. No matter what the context be, they CAN make a fresh start. And by change I don`t mean turning into a religious fundamentalist of any hue - green or orange, but change for the better, promoting a more humane and peaceful world.
That change is taking place, even as we bemoan the violent times we live in. When that change occurs in enough number of people - not a very distant prospect - peace will come to India-Pakistan.
I personally think we Indians do not develop a sufficiently fine-grained analysis of Pakistani populace. We often tend to lump all Pakistanis along with Pakistani generals and supporters, and reduce all Pakistani intellectual deliberations to militant and miltaristic ideologies. This is patently unfair, particularly to younger Pakistanis who decide to think for themselves. Such an approcah also overlooks the mirror images of all Pakistani evils that we have in developing our own country.
Individuals CAN make a difference. No matter what the context be, they CAN make a fresh start. And by change I don`t mean turning into a religious fundamentalist of any hue - green or orange, but change for the better, promoting a more humane and peaceful world.
That change is taking place, even as we bemoan the violent times we live in. When that change occurs in enough number of people - not a very distant prospect - peace will come to India-Pakistan.
#11 Posted by stuka on September 9, 2002 11:51:40 am
``. Afterall what happened in Golden Temple, Babri Masjid and Gujrat does not really signal a start of dividend payment season. For dividends, society has to change, look at issues differently and think rationally. ``
This statement by Sameer says more than the entire article. I agree with PMishra. The article is very one-sided and paints two sides as Black and White.
The much reviled Baniya mentality will actually be helpful in putting Indo-Pak relations on an even keel.
This statement by Sameer says more than the entire article. I agree with PMishra. The article is very one-sided and paints two sides as Black and White.
The much reviled Baniya mentality will actually be helpful in putting Indo-Pak relations on an even keel.
#10 Posted by SameerJB on September 9, 2002 11:51:40 am
arjun_m #4: It is true that cold war has its costs. What I really pointing out was certain aspects of cultures, prejudices, biases, class structure and what not. I had to say it in response to statements like, ``. While in India there is the belief in ‘Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam’ (Earth is one family) in Islam the concept of shared brotherhood is limited only to Millat.`` do not mean much. It is true that good points acn be lifted from belief sysyems but at the end of the day what really counts is the actions, practices, conditions and politics of believers.
I have always said positive words for Indian Philosophies and Hinduism but considering the practices of four religions in subcontinent - that has something to do with larger historical experiences butt little to do with cross-border terrorism and hostilities - practices of Christian and Sikh communities are much more admirable than Islam and Hinduism practices in general. Both Hinduism and Islam suffer tremendously from past and present, real and perceived injustices meted out to them, respectively. The Islamic and Hindu fundamentalist phenomena are rooted more deeply than the events of last 55 or so years.
similarly the treatment of minorities and women in both countries is anything but satisfactory. No divedend is going to worth anything without fundamental changes that have to come from outside the religions and within each nation just as in Europe enlightenment came by non-religious and against the wishes of religious heirarchy. It appears to me that the multitude of problems with Muslims in Pakistan and insecurities of Hindus in India reflected in the umpteen riots with Gujrat, the latest , and second rate treatment of Sikhs plus caste ridden araes in northern India are somehow on hold until cross border terrorism is dealt with from Indian point of view and some favorable solution to Kashmir problem from Pakistani point of view. The cross border terrorism is really about 15 years old and can not continue indefinitely. Though it is absolutley wrong but can not be presented as justification for routine rigging the elections in Kashmir before cross border terrorism.
Actually positive, rational, secular/ liberal changes made within India and Pakistan will kill the cross border terrorism and the hostilities between two neighbors. I guarantee you peace breaking out in South Asia, once per capita income crosses 1000 dollars and women and minorities are treated as equal.
I have always said positive words for Indian Philosophies and Hinduism but considering the practices of four religions in subcontinent - that has something to do with larger historical experiences butt little to do with cross-border terrorism and hostilities - practices of Christian and Sikh communities are much more admirable than Islam and Hinduism practices in general. Both Hinduism and Islam suffer tremendously from past and present, real and perceived injustices meted out to them, respectively. The Islamic and Hindu fundamentalist phenomena are rooted more deeply than the events of last 55 or so years.
similarly the treatment of minorities and women in both countries is anything but satisfactory. No divedend is going to worth anything without fundamental changes that have to come from outside the religions and within each nation just as in Europe enlightenment came by non-religious and against the wishes of religious heirarchy. It appears to me that the multitude of problems with Muslims in Pakistan and insecurities of Hindus in India reflected in the umpteen riots with Gujrat, the latest , and second rate treatment of Sikhs plus caste ridden araes in northern India are somehow on hold until cross border terrorism is dealt with from Indian point of view and some favorable solution to Kashmir problem from Pakistani point of view. The cross border terrorism is really about 15 years old and can not continue indefinitely. Though it is absolutley wrong but can not be presented as justification for routine rigging the elections in Kashmir before cross border terrorism.
Actually positive, rational, secular/ liberal changes made within India and Pakistan will kill the cross border terrorism and the hostilities between two neighbors. I guarantee you peace breaking out in South Asia, once per capita income crosses 1000 dollars and women and minorities are treated as equal.
#8 Posted by pmishra2 on September 9, 2002 8:27:59 am
This is too one-sided a commentary. My guess is that if pragmatic and democratic forces in Pakistan are allowed to come forward (e.g., Nawaz Sharif - Vajpayee interaction) quite a lot of progress could be made. On the indian side, the poor quality of indian politicians and influence of the Modi-Thackeray type of extremists must also be taken into account. What about the Abdullah-family khandani control of J&K? It that were removed, again, progress would be made.
The U.K. is still on paper a theocracy ! But in practice, most people, will agree it has moved far beyond that.
The U.K. is still on paper a theocracy ! But in practice, most people, will agree it has moved far beyond that.
#7 Posted by nasah on September 9, 2002 6:55:35 am
a little introspection goes a long way to balance one`s judgment of others. No political issues are that black and white.
#6 Posted by arjun_m on September 9, 2002 6:55:14 am
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#5 Posted by arjun_m on September 9, 2002 6:55:14 am
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#4 Posted by arjun_m on September 9, 2002 6:55:13 am
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#3 Posted by SameerJB on September 9, 2002 12:15:45 am
[If cross border terrorism ceases, facilitating a dialogue between India and Pakistan, will a dividend of long term peace follow? ]
Bundchungal: Pakistan and India have not fought a full fledge war for the last 30 years. Where is the divedend of 30 year peace? Peace is good and highly desirable but divedends have to wait for much longer given the current human conditions in south Asia, treatment of women and minorities, racial and religious intolerance. Afterall what happened in Golden Temple, Babri Masjid and Gujrat does not really signal a start of dividend payment season. For dividends, society has to change, look at issues differently and think rationally.
Otherwise, I agree about stopping cross-border terrorism.
Bundchungal: Pakistan and India have not fought a full fledge war for the last 30 years. Where is the divedend of 30 year peace? Peace is good and highly desirable but divedends have to wait for much longer given the current human conditions in south Asia, treatment of women and minorities, racial and religious intolerance. Afterall what happened in Golden Temple, Babri Masjid and Gujrat does not really signal a start of dividend payment season. For dividends, society has to change, look at issues differently and think rationally.
Otherwise, I agree about stopping cross-border terrorism.
#2 Posted by jay on September 8, 2002 11:50:46 pm
Bundchumga;,
``Unless religion is given a fresh look in Pakistan, we can wait till doomsday for peace to descend to the subcontinent. The responsibility for finding a new direction for themselves lies on the Pakistanis citizens since they alone``
That is an impossibility, the book says that there could be no selective emphesis with fatwa to all thsose who dares. This is the quagmire pakistan is in, there can be no future untill pakistan is iraquised. All of its military has to be defeated, and a global regime of jihadic frontiers enforced.
``Unless religion is given a fresh look in Pakistan, we can wait till doomsday for peace to descend to the subcontinent. The responsibility for finding a new direction for themselves lies on the Pakistanis citizens since they alone``
That is an impossibility, the book says that there could be no selective emphesis with fatwa to all thsose who dares. This is the quagmire pakistan is in, there can be no future untill pakistan is iraquised. All of its military has to be defeated, and a global regime of jihadic frontiers enforced.
#1 Posted by sadna on September 8, 2002 11:46:25 pm
This article appeared at least in one other place:
www.kashmirtelegraph.com/verma.htm
Pakistan: Road Blocks in Normalising Relations
A.K. Verma
www.kashmirtelegraph.com/verma.htm
Pakistan: Road Blocks in Normalising Relations
A.K. Verma
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