Road Blocks in Normalising Relations

This article appeared at least in one other place:
www.kashmirtelegraph.com/verma.htm

Pakistan: Road Blocks in Normalising Relations

A.K. Verma

Bundchumga;,

``Unless religion is given a fresh look in Pakistan, we can wait till doomsday for peace to descend to the subcontinent. The responsibility for finding a new direction for themselves lies on the Pakistanis citizens since they alone``

That is an impossibility, the book says that there could be no selective emphesis with fatwa to all thsose who dares. This is the quagmire pakistan is in, there can be no future untill pakistan is iraquised. All of its military has to be defeated, and a global regime of jihadic frontiers enforced.

[If cross border terrorism ceases, facilitating a dialogue between India and Pakistan, will a dividend of long term peace follow? ]
Bundchungal: Pakistan and India have not fought a full fledge war for the last 30 years. Where is the divedend of 30 year peace? Peace is good and highly desirable but divedends have to wait for much longer given the current human conditions in south Asia, treatment of women and minorities, racial and religious intolerance. Afterall what happened in Golden Temple, Babri Masjid and Gujrat does not really signal a start of dividend payment season. For dividends, society has to change, look at issues differently and think rationally.
Otherwise, I agree about stopping cross-border terrorism.

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a little introspection goes a long way to balance one`s judgment of others. No political issues are that black and white.

This is too one-sided a commentary. My guess is that if pragmatic and democratic forces in Pakistan are allowed to come forward (e.g., Nawaz Sharif - Vajpayee interaction) quite a lot of progress could be made. On the indian side, the poor quality of indian politicians and influence of the Modi-Thackeray type of extremists must also be taken into account. What about the Abdullah-family khandani control of J&K? It that were removed, again, progress would be made.

The U.K. is still on paper a theocracy ! But in practice, most people, will agree it has moved far beyond that.

Thank you pmishra ji.

arjun_m #4: It is true that cold war has its costs. What I really pointing out was certain aspects of cultures, prejudices, biases, class structure and what not. I had to say it in response to statements like, ``. While in India there is the belief in ‘Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam’ (Earth is one family) in Islam the concept of shared brotherhood is limited only to Millat.`` do not mean much. It is true that good points acn be lifted from belief sysyems but at the end of the day what really counts is the actions, practices, conditions and politics of believers.
I have always said positive words for Indian Philosophies and Hinduism but considering the practices of four religions in subcontinent - that has something to do with larger historical experiences butt little to do with cross-border terrorism and hostilities - practices of Christian and Sikh communities are much more admirable than Islam and Hinduism practices in general. Both Hinduism and Islam suffer tremendously from past and present, real and perceived injustices meted out to them, respectively. The Islamic and Hindu fundamentalist phenomena are rooted more deeply than the events of last 55 or so years.
similarly the treatment of minorities and women in both countries is anything but satisfactory. No divedend is going to worth anything without fundamental changes that have to come from outside the religions and within each nation just as in Europe enlightenment came by non-religious and against the wishes of religious heirarchy. It appears to me that the multitude of problems with Muslims in Pakistan and insecurities of Hindus in India reflected in the umpteen riots with Gujrat, the latest , and second rate treatment of Sikhs plus caste ridden araes in northern India are somehow on hold until cross border terrorism is dealt with from Indian point of view and some favorable solution to Kashmir problem from Pakistani point of view. The cross border terrorism is really about 15 years old and can not continue indefinitely. Though it is absolutley wrong but can not be presented as justification for routine rigging the elections in Kashmir before cross border terrorism.
Actually positive, rational, secular/ liberal changes made within India and Pakistan will kill the cross border terrorism and the hostilities between two neighbors. I guarantee you peace breaking out in South Asia, once per capita income crosses 1000 dollars and women and minorities are treated as equal.

``. Afterall what happened in Golden Temple, Babri Masjid and Gujrat does not really signal a start of dividend payment season. For dividends, society has to change, look at issues differently and think rationally. ``

This statement by Sameer says more than the entire article. I agree with PMishra. The article is very one-sided and paints two sides as Black and White.

The much reviled Baniya mentality will actually be helpful in putting Indo-Pak relations on an even keel.

Too broad a brush there, bro.

I personally think we Indians do not develop a sufficiently fine-grained analysis of Pakistani populace. We often tend to lump all Pakistanis along with Pakistani generals and supporters, and reduce all Pakistani intellectual deliberations to militant and miltaristic ideologies. This is patently unfair, particularly to younger Pakistanis who decide to think for themselves. Such an approcah also overlooks the mirror images of all Pakistani evils that we have in developing our own country.

Individuals CAN make a difference. No matter what the context be, they CAN make a fresh start. And by change I don`t mean turning into a religious fundamentalist of any hue - green or orange, but change for the better, promoting a more humane and peaceful world.

That change is taking place, even as we bemoan the violent times we live in. When that change occurs in enough number of people - not a very distant prospect - peace will come to India-Pakistan.

A strong dose of Confucianism laced with Buddhism is the need of the hour for both Pakistan and India. The fatalism needs to be banished.

I have wondered often, why the Pakistani establishment or even the populace, not condemned ``the mughal rule`` over India, beginning from Aurangazeb and going back to the muslim invasion of India.
In fact, the Pakistani establishment is keen on naming some of the imported North Korean missiles with names like ``ghauri``, etc who not only invaded India but plundered/pillaged India as well.

Why I am saying this; Pakistani establishment keeps lamenting about Muslim majority Kashmir. The arguement from the Pakistan has always been India being a non-muslim country cannot have any say over Muslim Kashmiris.

Then, proceeding with this arguement, then one would expect the same establishment to teach Pakistani population and children that the mughal period was indeed bad, since it was minority muslim establishment controlling an overall majority hindu/sikh population?

See my point? Why silence? Is it ok for minority muslim control over majority non-muslims, but not vice-versa?

Hindutva Speaks!

``At the heart of the Two Nation Theory laid religious communalism and after the creation of Pakistan it took a new shape in the form of the Islamic ideology of the State. Islamic ideology of Pakistan is thus the post partition face of the earlier religious communalism which had contributed to the creation of Pakistan. The conceptual antagonism against secularism now stands revealed as the consistent enmity against India. The Pakistani animus against India is not a post 1947 creation. Its roots run deep into the cultural history of the subcontinent.``

Religious communalism - such a wonderous, vague picture. Indians had no part in the creation of TNT - why butter won`t melt in their mouths. Them Mooselum had the gall to have a sense of nationalism and horror of horrors, they weren`t ready to tolerate what we just did in Gujjrat, to happen to them. See the victim is to blame, the victim did not wish to suffer us any further.
The animus of Pakistan? Again, no context - And the animus of the Indian? Kile I said butter doesn`t melt in their mouths - everyone else is responsibile for what happened to the Indian, except the Indian. And for the coup d`grace we have Pakistani animus has deep cultural roots - Duh! and the ``enslaved, debauched Indian``, his pride kicked out of his behind for a 1000 years - what of his animus?
Every kind of revision, obfuscation, abdication of responsibility is on the shoulders of the intellectuals of India. Cross border terrorism did not create the problems in captive kashmir - After 71 - the Indians have only themselves to blame for their failure. But it is easier to balme the ``Other`` - I understand - But not for much longer, the time for maturity and for difficult decisions is the burden of those who want a place in the sun.

ugh, this hobbes is back with his polysyllabic inanities, now we are lost.

He will find some news item describing how some poor muslim indian was beaten by a policeman and favour us with a 1000-line proof of hindu perfidy.

Fortunately, prejudice and a closed mind cannot be disguised by a display of five dollar words. But I guess that isn`t going to stop him from trying....