Islamic Utopia?
Yasser Latif Hamdani October 30, 2002
#133 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 8:19:26 am
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#132 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 8:19:26 am
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#131 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 8:19:26 am
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#130 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 8:19:26 am
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#129 Posted by rsaxena on November 5, 2002 8:19:25 am
...people, let`s not torture faisaluno anymore..he`s broken into hysteria googling till his beard hurts, desperately looking for irrelevant drivel to cut-n-paste...:)
#128 Posted by faisaluno on November 5, 2002 7:18:12 am
dear harimau and other cheer leaders for narendra modi:
unlike you, we dont follow the advice of every psychotic nutcase who knows how to write. as the following article by praful bidwai indicates, you guys actually elect those people.
for pakis fretting about the prospect mma rule, realise that l.k advani has killed ten times the number of people in comparison to azim tariq. to gain an understanding of vileness of the whole bjp movement, please take the time to watch anand parthwadans documentary on the rise of l.k. advani. the name of the film is ``in the name of god``. if the film does not convince you to put aside your differences to work for a better pakistan, i dont know what will. review of the film is posted below
Subhuman lives
Oppression stalks dalits in India, says Praful Bidwai
October 2002, Jaipur, [IPS] - A 50-kilometer journey from the capital of Rajasthan, brings visitors to Chakwara village - and back into the Middle Ages. Here, after all, is a society based on terrible persistent inequalities, social servitude and economic bondage. At the centre of the serfdom, and legitimizing it, is the systemic, systematic and religiously sanctified discrimination against the Dalits, India`s former `untouchables`.
Oppression of the 160 to 180 million Dalits, who are viewed as being too low to even be part of the caste system, is one of the most repelling, but enduring, realities of the Indian countryside. Equally oppressive is the violence perpetrated against them, especially their women. To be a Dalit today means having to live in a subhuman, degraded, insecure fashion: Every hour, two Dalits are assaulted. Every day, three Dalit women are raped, and two killed. In most parts of India, Dalits continue to be barred from entering Hindu temples or other holy places - although doing so is against the law. Their women are banned from wearing shoes in the presence of caste Hindus. Dalit children often suffer a form of apartheid at school by being made to sit at the back of the classroom.
Yet, the Dalits are resisting. In parts of the country, they are organizing politically to demand their rights. A Dalit woman rules the largest state, Uttar Pradesh. However, breaking the barriers laid down by the Hindu caste system is an uphill struggle, especially when the government does little to uphold the law of the land that prohibits discrimination on account of descent.
The Dalits of Chakwara village discovered this when they lay their claim to a common or public resource: the village pond, bathing in which is an important ritual. The pond and the steps leading to it have been built and maintained over the years with state funds and contributions raised by the entire village, including the Dalits. But Dalits have been excluded from using the common `ghats` for decades. Caste-based ``tradition`` ensures that Dalits are treated worse than the buffaloes, cows and pigs that have virtually unrestrained access to the pond. The only exception is the women who have also, irrespective of caste, always been barred from the pond.
However, in December, Babulal and Radheshyam, who belong to the Bairwa group of Dalits, decided to defy the hallowed ``tradition`` and take a dip in the pond. Outraged, the caste Hindus subjected the Bairwas to vile abuse, threats of a ``bloodbath``, a nightly siege of their homes and a crippling social boycott. The Dalits could no longer buy tea or vegetables or hire farm implements. The local doctor would not treat them. The grocery shop ostracized them. The local mechanic would not repair their bicycles. Their men were stalked, their women abused.
The local administration and police should have protected and supported the Dalits. Instead, they generally sided with the upper castes. In January, officials allied with the caste Hindus in breach of the law bullied the Dalits into signing a ``compromise`` agreement, which effectively erased their right to the pond. The agreement produced discontent and resentment that has been simmering ever since. Last month, the discontent culminated in another effort by the Bairwas to assert their rights, through a rally in collaboration with other human rights organizations.
The caste Hindus decided to confront the Dalits ``physically`` and gathered a mob of 10 to 15,000 men armed with sticks. The police tried to stop the men from attacking the rally, halted some distance away. Angered, the caste Hindus attacked the police who responded with teargas and bullets, and in the ensuing brawl more than 50 people were injured, including 44 policemen.
The incident has created waves beyond Rajasthan - one of India`s most socially backward states. Rajasthan has a dismal record of anti-Dalit offenses, with an annual average of 5,024 crimes registered in the last three years. On average, there are 46 killings, 134 rapes and 93 cases of grievous injury every year. One of the worst killings was the massacre of 17 Dalits, at Kumher village, in 1992.
However, the state administration and police have learnt few lessons. Rather than take preventive measures or prosecute those guilty of caste discrimination, they side with the upper castes. This is partly because the bulk of India`s bureaucracy is caste Hindu. Although the Dalits are entitled to 15 percent of all government jobs, they rarely get the better-paid ones in senior categories.
Of equal importance is the role that ``tradition`` plays in the Hindu religion. Many enlightened Hindus reject the idea of caste. Modern education persuaded large numbers of them to support a reform movement for cleansing Indian society of evils like caste-based apartheid, widow burning and dowry. But despite early gains, the reform momentum ran out of steam by the 1950s and conservative currents have taken hold since then. In the past 10 to 15 years, these have struck their deepest roots in the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), and critics allege that the party ideologically represents hierarchical Hinduism and casteism in its worst aspects.
Legally, the notion of untouchables and discrimination against the Dalits are prohibited under the Indian Constitution under a 1955 civil rights act and the 1989 Prevention of Atrocities, or POA, act. The act was written explicitly to outlaw physical and verbal abuse against Dalits, but hasn`t had the desired effect.
The Dalit struggle for emancipation from social and economic servitude faces heavy odds, but it has also acquired an international dimension since the World Conference Against Racism last year in South Africa. Casteism has come in for strong criticism from the United Nations. In August, while discussing descent-based discrimination, the U.N. Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination strongly condemned caste. The panel`s recommendations for corrective measures are thoughtful and exhaustive. They confront India with a simple choice: systematically fight casteism or face opprobrium and possible sanctions from the world community.
Praful Bidwai
October 2002
Praful Bidwai is a correspondent with Inter Press Service, a global news resource faciliating south-south and south-north dialogue on important economic, social, environmental, and other issues. IPS is distributed by Global Information Network
Review
In the Name Of God
A Film by Anand Patwardhan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since gaining independence in 1947, India has been a secular state. But now, as religious fundamentalism grips much of India`s population, the greatest danger to the nation`s extremely strained social fabric may come not from Sikh or Muslim separatists, but from Hindu fundamentalists who are appealing to the 83% Hindu majority to redefine India as a Hindu nation.
IN THE NAME OF GOD focuses on the campaign waged by the militant Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) to destroy a 16th century mosque in Ayodhya said to have been built by Babar, the first Mughal Emperor of India. The VHP claim the mosque was built at the birthsite of the Hindu god Ram after Babar razed an existing Ram temple. They are determined to build a new temple to Ram on the same site. This controversial issue, which successive governments have refused to resolve, has led to religious riots which have cost thousands their lives, culminating in the mosque`s destruction by the Hindus in December of 1992. The resulting religious violence immediately spread throughout India and Pakistan leaving more than 5,000 dead, and causing thousands of Indian Muslims to flee their homes.
Filmed prior to the mosque`s demolition, IN THE NAME OF GOD examines the motivations which would ultimately lead to the drastic actions of the Hindu militants, as well as the efforts of secular Indians - many of whom are Hindus - to combat the religious intolerance and hatred that has seized India in the name of God.
``IN THE NAME OF GOD is an honest documentary that leaves no doubt about the catastrophe that is about to engulf the country... Made with very little editorial interference, what we see is what is there. And what is there is frightening.`` - Ruma Dutta, India Today
``The screen is electric with religious fervor, masses of people swarming through the streets, gathering in rallies, or violently rioting... This is investigative cinema verité documentary at its dynamic best.`` - Kay Armatage, Toronto Film Festival
``A deceptively informal look at one lethal instance of India`s move towards fundamentalist politics. For those who need to translate westward, it provides a possible clairvoyant example of the force of religious-political belief.`` - Cameron Bailey
``[An] acutely informative, restrainedly courageous, and grimly prophetic film.``- Hank Heifetz, author, ORIGIN OF THE YOUNG GOD
``Hard-hitting, provocative, revealing look at secularism in India under siege from militants on both sides. Patwardhan explores this tragedy in this lucid, courageous film that allows supporters of both sides to have their say... A documentary well worth seeking out.`` - Variety
** 1994 Association for Asian Studies Conference
** Best Ecumenical Film Award Winner, 1993 Nyon Film Festival
** Critics Prize Winner, 1993 Fribourg Film Festival
** 1993 Human Rights Watch Film Festival
** 1993 Margaret Mead Film Festival
** Best Investigative Documentary, 1993 National Awards (India)
** 1993 Berlin Film Festival
** Best Documentary, 1992 Filmfare
unlike you, we dont follow the advice of every psychotic nutcase who knows how to write. as the following article by praful bidwai indicates, you guys actually elect those people.
for pakis fretting about the prospect mma rule, realise that l.k advani has killed ten times the number of people in comparison to azim tariq. to gain an understanding of vileness of the whole bjp movement, please take the time to watch anand parthwadans documentary on the rise of l.k. advani. the name of the film is ``in the name of god``. if the film does not convince you to put aside your differences to work for a better pakistan, i dont know what will. review of the film is posted below
Subhuman lives
Oppression stalks dalits in India, says Praful Bidwai
October 2002, Jaipur, [IPS] - A 50-kilometer journey from the capital of Rajasthan, brings visitors to Chakwara village - and back into the Middle Ages. Here, after all, is a society based on terrible persistent inequalities, social servitude and economic bondage. At the centre of the serfdom, and legitimizing it, is the systemic, systematic and religiously sanctified discrimination against the Dalits, India`s former `untouchables`.
Oppression of the 160 to 180 million Dalits, who are viewed as being too low to even be part of the caste system, is one of the most repelling, but enduring, realities of the Indian countryside. Equally oppressive is the violence perpetrated against them, especially their women. To be a Dalit today means having to live in a subhuman, degraded, insecure fashion: Every hour, two Dalits are assaulted. Every day, three Dalit women are raped, and two killed. In most parts of India, Dalits continue to be barred from entering Hindu temples or other holy places - although doing so is against the law. Their women are banned from wearing shoes in the presence of caste Hindus. Dalit children often suffer a form of apartheid at school by being made to sit at the back of the classroom.
Yet, the Dalits are resisting. In parts of the country, they are organizing politically to demand their rights. A Dalit woman rules the largest state, Uttar Pradesh. However, breaking the barriers laid down by the Hindu caste system is an uphill struggle, especially when the government does little to uphold the law of the land that prohibits discrimination on account of descent.
The Dalits of Chakwara village discovered this when they lay their claim to a common or public resource: the village pond, bathing in which is an important ritual. The pond and the steps leading to it have been built and maintained over the years with state funds and contributions raised by the entire village, including the Dalits. But Dalits have been excluded from using the common `ghats` for decades. Caste-based ``tradition`` ensures that Dalits are treated worse than the buffaloes, cows and pigs that have virtually unrestrained access to the pond. The only exception is the women who have also, irrespective of caste, always been barred from the pond.
However, in December, Babulal and Radheshyam, who belong to the Bairwa group of Dalits, decided to defy the hallowed ``tradition`` and take a dip in the pond. Outraged, the caste Hindus subjected the Bairwas to vile abuse, threats of a ``bloodbath``, a nightly siege of their homes and a crippling social boycott. The Dalits could no longer buy tea or vegetables or hire farm implements. The local doctor would not treat them. The grocery shop ostracized them. The local mechanic would not repair their bicycles. Their men were stalked, their women abused.
The local administration and police should have protected and supported the Dalits. Instead, they generally sided with the upper castes. In January, officials allied with the caste Hindus in breach of the law bullied the Dalits into signing a ``compromise`` agreement, which effectively erased their right to the pond. The agreement produced discontent and resentment that has been simmering ever since. Last month, the discontent culminated in another effort by the Bairwas to assert their rights, through a rally in collaboration with other human rights organizations.
The caste Hindus decided to confront the Dalits ``physically`` and gathered a mob of 10 to 15,000 men armed with sticks. The police tried to stop the men from attacking the rally, halted some distance away. Angered, the caste Hindus attacked the police who responded with teargas and bullets, and in the ensuing brawl more than 50 people were injured, including 44 policemen.
The incident has created waves beyond Rajasthan - one of India`s most socially backward states. Rajasthan has a dismal record of anti-Dalit offenses, with an annual average of 5,024 crimes registered in the last three years. On average, there are 46 killings, 134 rapes and 93 cases of grievous injury every year. One of the worst killings was the massacre of 17 Dalits, at Kumher village, in 1992.
However, the state administration and police have learnt few lessons. Rather than take preventive measures or prosecute those guilty of caste discrimination, they side with the upper castes. This is partly because the bulk of India`s bureaucracy is caste Hindu. Although the Dalits are entitled to 15 percent of all government jobs, they rarely get the better-paid ones in senior categories.
Of equal importance is the role that ``tradition`` plays in the Hindu religion. Many enlightened Hindus reject the idea of caste. Modern education persuaded large numbers of them to support a reform movement for cleansing Indian society of evils like caste-based apartheid, widow burning and dowry. But despite early gains, the reform momentum ran out of steam by the 1950s and conservative currents have taken hold since then. In the past 10 to 15 years, these have struck their deepest roots in the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), and critics allege that the party ideologically represents hierarchical Hinduism and casteism in its worst aspects.
Legally, the notion of untouchables and discrimination against the Dalits are prohibited under the Indian Constitution under a 1955 civil rights act and the 1989 Prevention of Atrocities, or POA, act. The act was written explicitly to outlaw physical and verbal abuse against Dalits, but hasn`t had the desired effect.
The Dalit struggle for emancipation from social and economic servitude faces heavy odds, but it has also acquired an international dimension since the World Conference Against Racism last year in South Africa. Casteism has come in for strong criticism from the United Nations. In August, while discussing descent-based discrimination, the U.N. Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination strongly condemned caste. The panel`s recommendations for corrective measures are thoughtful and exhaustive. They confront India with a simple choice: systematically fight casteism or face opprobrium and possible sanctions from the world community.
Praful Bidwai
October 2002
Praful Bidwai is a correspondent with Inter Press Service, a global news resource faciliating south-south and south-north dialogue on important economic, social, environmental, and other issues. IPS is distributed by Global Information Network
Review
In the Name Of God
A Film by Anand Patwardhan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since gaining independence in 1947, India has been a secular state. But now, as religious fundamentalism grips much of India`s population, the greatest danger to the nation`s extremely strained social fabric may come not from Sikh or Muslim separatists, but from Hindu fundamentalists who are appealing to the 83% Hindu majority to redefine India as a Hindu nation.
IN THE NAME OF GOD focuses on the campaign waged by the militant Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) to destroy a 16th century mosque in Ayodhya said to have been built by Babar, the first Mughal Emperor of India. The VHP claim the mosque was built at the birthsite of the Hindu god Ram after Babar razed an existing Ram temple. They are determined to build a new temple to Ram on the same site. This controversial issue, which successive governments have refused to resolve, has led to religious riots which have cost thousands their lives, culminating in the mosque`s destruction by the Hindus in December of 1992. The resulting religious violence immediately spread throughout India and Pakistan leaving more than 5,000 dead, and causing thousands of Indian Muslims to flee their homes.
Filmed prior to the mosque`s demolition, IN THE NAME OF GOD examines the motivations which would ultimately lead to the drastic actions of the Hindu militants, as well as the efforts of secular Indians - many of whom are Hindus - to combat the religious intolerance and hatred that has seized India in the name of God.
``IN THE NAME OF GOD is an honest documentary that leaves no doubt about the catastrophe that is about to engulf the country... Made with very little editorial interference, what we see is what is there. And what is there is frightening.`` - Ruma Dutta, India Today
``The screen is electric with religious fervor, masses of people swarming through the streets, gathering in rallies, or violently rioting... This is investigative cinema verité documentary at its dynamic best.`` - Kay Armatage, Toronto Film Festival
``A deceptively informal look at one lethal instance of India`s move towards fundamentalist politics. For those who need to translate westward, it provides a possible clairvoyant example of the force of religious-political belief.`` - Cameron Bailey
``[An] acutely informative, restrainedly courageous, and grimly prophetic film.``- Hank Heifetz, author, ORIGIN OF THE YOUNG GOD
``Hard-hitting, provocative, revealing look at secularism in India under siege from militants on both sides. Patwardhan explores this tragedy in this lucid, courageous film that allows supporters of both sides to have their say... A documentary well worth seeking out.`` - Variety
** 1994 Association for Asian Studies Conference
** Best Ecumenical Film Award Winner, 1993 Nyon Film Festival
** Critics Prize Winner, 1993 Fribourg Film Festival
** 1993 Human Rights Watch Film Festival
** 1993 Margaret Mead Film Festival
** Best Investigative Documentary, 1993 National Awards (India)
** 1993 Berlin Film Festival
** Best Documentary, 1992 Filmfare
#127 Posted by faisaluno on November 5, 2002 7:18:12 am
dear believers in the goodness and purity of american society:
i bet the dead sikh taxi driver and the dead hindu dead gas station attendant were grateful for not looking like muslims before a bullet was pumped through their foreheads.
bet also that those two research assistants were grateful that india was a partner and not a condom. i on the other hand, an average citizen of condom country unlike those exceptional research assistants, have been able to travel to pakistan and back, four times since Sep 11.
interesting to note that 50 years after independence, some of the smartest people in india have to leave the motherland to survive. interesting to also note that americans are not even criticizing mush for sending people who were who were planning to kill innocent shoppers before diwali.
i bet the dead sikh taxi driver and the dead hindu dead gas station attendant were grateful for not looking like muslims before a bullet was pumped through their foreheads.
bet also that those two research assistants were grateful that india was a partner and not a condom. i on the other hand, an average citizen of condom country unlike those exceptional research assistants, have been able to travel to pakistan and back, four times since Sep 11.
interesting to note that 50 years after independence, some of the smartest people in india have to leave the motherland to survive. interesting to also note that americans are not even criticizing mush for sending people who were who were planning to kill innocent shoppers before diwali.
#126 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 6:24:55 am
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#125 Posted by rsaxena on November 5, 2002 5:37:16 am
re: faisaluno
{read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times. }
a) it`s good to know that some brilliant fundamental research is being done in india - much better than preparing kids for jehad, isn`t it?
b) those visa denials probably had nothing to do with terrorism, but more to do with scaling back of visas for young people who are likely to stay back in the US for economic reasons...previously, many scientists were denied visas because of the nuclear tests...again, very different from terrorism
c) indian citizens entering the US are not being fingerprinted on suspicion of being terrorists like saudis, sudanese, iraqis, pakistanis, and egyptians are
d) i thought pakistanis looked soooo different from indians...hehe...so why are you now trying to find solace in ``brown man`` unity?
....dude, you`re a joke...
{read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times. }
a) it`s good to know that some brilliant fundamental research is being done in india - much better than preparing kids for jehad, isn`t it?
b) those visa denials probably had nothing to do with terrorism, but more to do with scaling back of visas for young people who are likely to stay back in the US for economic reasons...previously, many scientists were denied visas because of the nuclear tests...again, very different from terrorism
c) indian citizens entering the US are not being fingerprinted on suspicion of being terrorists like saudis, sudanese, iraqis, pakistanis, and egyptians are
d) i thought pakistanis looked soooo different from indians...hehe...so why are you now trying to find solace in ``brown man`` unity?
....dude, you`re a joke...
#124 Posted by adnan_672 on November 5, 2002 3:43:58 am
sattar#92
``Scholarly evaluation … by a mullah who also tells us to believe in … what else … but a prophet residing above the clouds … for two thousand years … who will one day descend to earth on the shoulders of two angels … ``
Once again Mr Sattar you have NO point at all. I will not teach you how to put forward a reasonable argument, but this is definitely not the way.
Now as far as Qadiyani Masala is concerned I would gladly answer any criticism you have on any of the points therein, but what you wrote is NOT a criticism on anything in that book.
You took off from the last board without answering any of my querries, which I repost (so no muslim may be misled by the ahmadiyyah beliefs)
1. Why did the sahaba RA fight against each and every calimant to Prophrthood?
The muslim explination: There was NO question of trying to determine whether this person was a Prophet because they knew as told by Rasool Allah SAW that there would be no Prophets after him.
we await the qadiyani response
2. Why have ulema for 1400 yrs consistently interpreted (and an obvious interpretation it is) the verse on Finality in one way and not in the fantastic way Mr Ghulam Ahmed did?
The muslim explination: Because it follows from the context, it follows from arabic lexicography, it follows from saheeh hadith. it follows from the acts of Sahaba
we await the qadiyani response
3. You find Nozool e Issa strange, yet you are prepared to believe in the rebirth of Hazrat Issa AS as Mirza Sahib, who took his own sweet time in discovering that he indeed was Hazrat Isaa AS, time spent as a non gazetted officer in Her Majesty`s service may I add
The qadiyani response is awaited
4. What do you say to Mirza Sahibs unfulfilled prophesies about Maulana Sanaullah, about an heir, about Mohammadi Begum? I could go on
The qadiyani response is awaited
Many more of such very valid objections have been raised by Malana Maudoodi in Qadiyani Masala, take the time out to read it, i have taken time out to read the Ahmadiyyah literature (part of it at least) if you want to debate the issue decency dictates you read muslim literature and not comment on something you have no idea about.
Furthermore muslim scholars from Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz to Allama Iqbal to Maudoodi to Ulema of Deoband, Barelvi, Ahle Hadith Isna Ahari Shia schools have been unanimous in declaring Ahmadiyyah non muslims.
Likewise the good mirza and his khulufa have declared all muslims to be kafirs rt Mr Sattar????
I would not have bothered to reply to your childish post but the thought that a muslim might become more knowledgeable about this issue led me to post this detailed reply.
I await your response and hope it would be more educated than your previous post
May Allahs blessings be on the belivers
Adnan
``Scholarly evaluation … by a mullah who also tells us to believe in … what else … but a prophet residing above the clouds … for two thousand years … who will one day descend to earth on the shoulders of two angels … ``
Once again Mr Sattar you have NO point at all. I will not teach you how to put forward a reasonable argument, but this is definitely not the way.
Now as far as Qadiyani Masala is concerned I would gladly answer any criticism you have on any of the points therein, but what you wrote is NOT a criticism on anything in that book.
You took off from the last board without answering any of my querries, which I repost (so no muslim may be misled by the ahmadiyyah beliefs)
1. Why did the sahaba RA fight against each and every calimant to Prophrthood?
The muslim explination: There was NO question of trying to determine whether this person was a Prophet because they knew as told by Rasool Allah SAW that there would be no Prophets after him.
we await the qadiyani response
2. Why have ulema for 1400 yrs consistently interpreted (and an obvious interpretation it is) the verse on Finality in one way and not in the fantastic way Mr Ghulam Ahmed did?
The muslim explination: Because it follows from the context, it follows from arabic lexicography, it follows from saheeh hadith. it follows from the acts of Sahaba
we await the qadiyani response
3. You find Nozool e Issa strange, yet you are prepared to believe in the rebirth of Hazrat Issa AS as Mirza Sahib, who took his own sweet time in discovering that he indeed was Hazrat Isaa AS, time spent as a non gazetted officer in Her Majesty`s service may I add
The qadiyani response is awaited
4. What do you say to Mirza Sahibs unfulfilled prophesies about Maulana Sanaullah, about an heir, about Mohammadi Begum? I could go on
The qadiyani response is awaited
Many more of such very valid objections have been raised by Malana Maudoodi in Qadiyani Masala, take the time out to read it, i have taken time out to read the Ahmadiyyah literature (part of it at least) if you want to debate the issue decency dictates you read muslim literature and not comment on something you have no idea about.
Furthermore muslim scholars from Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz to Allama Iqbal to Maudoodi to Ulema of Deoband, Barelvi, Ahle Hadith Isna Ahari Shia schools have been unanimous in declaring Ahmadiyyah non muslims.
Likewise the good mirza and his khulufa have declared all muslims to be kafirs rt Mr Sattar????
I would not have bothered to reply to your childish post but the thought that a muslim might become more knowledgeable about this issue led me to post this detailed reply.
I await your response and hope it would be more educated than your previous post
May Allahs blessings be on the belivers
Adnan
#123 Posted by harimau on November 5, 2002 3:43:58 am
Ref faisaluno`s ecstasy at being a Muslim.
Hey Abdul, here is something for you:
Open Letter to All New Converts to Islam
By Al Mansur
Assalaammualaikum
Praise be to Allah.
Now that you have believed in the True Religion, it is time for you to have a deeper understanding of Islam. It is my most sincere wish that you make your Muslim cleric, friend or spouse who helped you ‘revert to Islam’ proud and pleasantly surprised by your knowledge in Islam and by how fast you can come to having the correct views of a true believer. Remember, the only correct perspective in this world, is a Muslim’s.
The first step of achieving this (if you have not already done so) is to stop asking them irritating questions such as what is Islam’s stand on 9/11, killings of Christians, Hindus etc. in Egypt, Sudan, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, Nigeria, southern Philippines, Kashmir etc. thereby forcing him to repeat for the umpteenth time that “Islam means Peace” and that “These Killers are not Real Muslims”.
Remember that you are a Muslim now. Instead of causing him to waste his time lying to you when he has a lot of other better things to do, such as lying to another potential convert, you should be helping him attend to and guide the infinite number of potential converts. Remember … you are no longer a customer but an employee now. Thus, the advertisements and sales presentations are no longer meant for you [Anyway all your answers are found in the Quran, so read it yourself]
I would encourage you to have faith in yourself and never underestimate your potential just because you are a new convert. Tariq ibn Ziyad and Khalid ibn Al-Walid who led Muslim excursions into other people’s countries to conquer, pillage, rape and did other great things for Islam were new converts when they started off in their careers. I regret however, that prior to converting, they were part of the armies who resisted Islam. But anyhow, they and their infidel compatriots became Muslims after some “prompting” and “persuasion”. All’s well that end’s well.
Let me share with you some other baby steps as a New Muslim to make your Muslim proselyter proud:
1) Propagate Islam
You have found the truth and it is Allah’s will that others should know the truth. Allah in his infinite wisdom has provided the most ingenious method of converting unbelievers. You can start of with just a sword (so long as it is sharp enough to separate body parts, it will do). This method is FAST, HIGHLY EFFECTIVE, COST EFFICIENT and not to mention COMPELLING. For more details, please see the Quran and the Hadiths.
How much time, effort and money have Ahmad Deedat and Jeremiah McAuliffe spent just to win a handful of converts? Using the method in the Quran, Muhammad (peace be upon him… coz’ if you’re non-Muslim, it’s rest in peace) and his Companions had Islam in Spain within less than a century. Praise be to Allah.
2) You are at War against Unbelievers
Don’t’ forget that it’s okay that these infidels die because they only THINK that their religion is true whereas you KNOW that yours is true.
[For more information see Shaykh Sa’eed ibn Wahf al-Qahtaani’s The Levels of Jihaad - Its merits and the reason for gaining victory over enemies © 1997 The Invitation to Islam, UK at Islaam.com]
3) Kill the Apostates
For this is the will of Allah. After all, wouldn’t you expect your “brothers and sisters in Islam” to do the same for you should you change your mind about Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and you renouncing Islam, is just bad for business. No offence.
Anyway, as Muslims always say “Islam is the most …. if not the only logical religion”. Any village idiot would know that. If you do not have the common sense to see this, you truly deserve to be shot.
4) Champion the cause of Muslims and Islam in the country that you live
If you’re from the UK, support Yusuf Islam a.k.a Cat Stevens campaign for public funding of Muslim schools in Britain. This only seems fair. Although Britain is officially a Christian country it has a growing Muslim minority whereas Saudi Arabia which is officially a Muslim country, does not have a Christian minority. (Saudi Arabia has already exterminated and expelled their Christians and Jews centuries ago)
One should NOT ONLY discourage public funding of Christian schools in say Pakistan, but should have Christian schools abolish altogether. This is because these schools make ready targets of non-Muslim children for PEACE-LOVING Muslims.
5) Champion the Cause of Muslims Worldwide
For example, be supportive of the Palestinian cause (as oppose to just showing sympathy for Palestinians like many Westerners). Death to Israel !!! A million martyrs shall march on Jerusalem !!! After all, Muhammad (peace be upon him) has declared war on the Jews and killed as well as raped them many centuries before the formation of the State of Israel.
The Kurds, like the Palestinians are stateless, predominantly Sunni Muslims, have stayed in their land for centuries, have their political aspirations suppressed, have thousands of their innocent civilians killed by chemical weapons (oops, I’m sorry this is applicable to the Kurds only). But who the hell cares so long as it is done by brother Muslims, right?
6) If you’re A Woman, please be supportive of your Muslim husband
If he was to subdue your unbelieving neighbours/friends/family members and thereafter proceed to have sexual intercourse with the women (that may include your sisters, sister-in-laws and best friends), this does not mean that he is unfaithful or that he does not love you (and his other wives, as the case may be). Don’t’ forget to tell him to ejaculate into them pursuant to Muhammad’s advice.
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah`s messenger we said, ``Oh Allah`s messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?`` The prophet said, ``Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.``
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 9, #506:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, ``It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection``. Qaza`a said, ``I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, ``No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.````
God’s laws are higher than man’s.
[Note : If you are a Woman Convert, don’t be discouraged just because the Special Incentive Package for martyrs (i.e. 72 virgins in Paradise with a lifetime warranty of renewable virginity) does not benefit you. If it’s any consolation, remember Islam respects and liberates women. What has your previous religion done for you?]
Remember Islam First, Humanity Second.
Hey Abdul, here is something for you:
Open Letter to All New Converts to Islam
By Al Mansur
Assalaammualaikum
Praise be to Allah.
Now that you have believed in the True Religion, it is time for you to have a deeper understanding of Islam. It is my most sincere wish that you make your Muslim cleric, friend or spouse who helped you ‘revert to Islam’ proud and pleasantly surprised by your knowledge in Islam and by how fast you can come to having the correct views of a true believer. Remember, the only correct perspective in this world, is a Muslim’s.
The first step of achieving this (if you have not already done so) is to stop asking them irritating questions such as what is Islam’s stand on 9/11, killings of Christians, Hindus etc. in Egypt, Sudan, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, Nigeria, southern Philippines, Kashmir etc. thereby forcing him to repeat for the umpteenth time that “Islam means Peace” and that “These Killers are not Real Muslims”.
Remember that you are a Muslim now. Instead of causing him to waste his time lying to you when he has a lot of other better things to do, such as lying to another potential convert, you should be helping him attend to and guide the infinite number of potential converts. Remember … you are no longer a customer but an employee now. Thus, the advertisements and sales presentations are no longer meant for you [Anyway all your answers are found in the Quran, so read it yourself]
I would encourage you to have faith in yourself and never underestimate your potential just because you are a new convert. Tariq ibn Ziyad and Khalid ibn Al-Walid who led Muslim excursions into other people’s countries to conquer, pillage, rape and did other great things for Islam were new converts when they started off in their careers. I regret however, that prior to converting, they were part of the armies who resisted Islam. But anyhow, they and their infidel compatriots became Muslims after some “prompting” and “persuasion”. All’s well that end’s well.
Let me share with you some other baby steps as a New Muslim to make your Muslim proselyter proud:
1) Propagate Islam
You have found the truth and it is Allah’s will that others should know the truth. Allah in his infinite wisdom has provided the most ingenious method of converting unbelievers. You can start of with just a sword (so long as it is sharp enough to separate body parts, it will do). This method is FAST, HIGHLY EFFECTIVE, COST EFFICIENT and not to mention COMPELLING. For more details, please see the Quran and the Hadiths.
How much time, effort and money have Ahmad Deedat and Jeremiah McAuliffe spent just to win a handful of converts? Using the method in the Quran, Muhammad (peace be upon him… coz’ if you’re non-Muslim, it’s rest in peace) and his Companions had Islam in Spain within less than a century. Praise be to Allah.
2) You are at War against Unbelievers
Don’t’ forget that it’s okay that these infidels die because they only THINK that their religion is true whereas you KNOW that yours is true.
[For more information see Shaykh Sa’eed ibn Wahf al-Qahtaani’s The Levels of Jihaad - Its merits and the reason for gaining victory over enemies © 1997 The Invitation to Islam, UK at Islaam.com]
3) Kill the Apostates
For this is the will of Allah. After all, wouldn’t you expect your “brothers and sisters in Islam” to do the same for you should you change your mind about Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and you renouncing Islam, is just bad for business. No offence.
Anyway, as Muslims always say “Islam is the most …. if not the only logical religion”. Any village idiot would know that. If you do not have the common sense to see this, you truly deserve to be shot.
4) Champion the cause of Muslims and Islam in the country that you live
If you’re from the UK, support Yusuf Islam a.k.a Cat Stevens campaign for public funding of Muslim schools in Britain. This only seems fair. Although Britain is officially a Christian country it has a growing Muslim minority whereas Saudi Arabia which is officially a Muslim country, does not have a Christian minority. (Saudi Arabia has already exterminated and expelled their Christians and Jews centuries ago)
One should NOT ONLY discourage public funding of Christian schools in say Pakistan, but should have Christian schools abolish altogether. This is because these schools make ready targets of non-Muslim children for PEACE-LOVING Muslims.
5) Champion the Cause of Muslims Worldwide
For example, be supportive of the Palestinian cause (as oppose to just showing sympathy for Palestinians like many Westerners). Death to Israel !!! A million martyrs shall march on Jerusalem !!! After all, Muhammad (peace be upon him) has declared war on the Jews and killed as well as raped them many centuries before the formation of the State of Israel.
The Kurds, like the Palestinians are stateless, predominantly Sunni Muslims, have stayed in their land for centuries, have their political aspirations suppressed, have thousands of their innocent civilians killed by chemical weapons (oops, I’m sorry this is applicable to the Kurds only). But who the hell cares so long as it is done by brother Muslims, right?
6) If you’re A Woman, please be supportive of your Muslim husband
If he was to subdue your unbelieving neighbours/friends/family members and thereafter proceed to have sexual intercourse with the women (that may include your sisters, sister-in-laws and best friends), this does not mean that he is unfaithful or that he does not love you (and his other wives, as the case may be). Don’t’ forget to tell him to ejaculate into them pursuant to Muhammad’s advice.
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah`s messenger we said, ``Oh Allah`s messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?`` The prophet said, ``Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.``
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 9, #506:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, ``It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection``. Qaza`a said, ``I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, ``No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.````
God’s laws are higher than man’s.
[Note : If you are a Woman Convert, don’t be discouraged just because the Special Incentive Package for martyrs (i.e. 72 virgins in Paradise with a lifetime warranty of renewable virginity) does not benefit you. If it’s any consolation, remember Islam respects and liberates women. What has your previous religion done for you?]
Remember Islam First, Humanity Second.
#122 Posted by harimau on November 4, 2002 10:26:10 pm
Ref arjun_m #106
[Unless India becomes a flawless utopia, there will always be Pakistanis who use whatever flaw they can find to justify what they are doing.}
Don`t be too harsh on the Pakistanis.
If India becomes a Muslim-majority country, then we will be allowed to do pretty much what we want, including taking it out on Shias, Ahmadiyyas, Ismailis, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Jews, and especially, Hindus.
[Unless India becomes a flawless utopia, there will always be Pakistanis who use whatever flaw they can find to justify what they are doing.}
Don`t be too harsh on the Pakistanis.
If India becomes a Muslim-majority country, then we will be allowed to do pretty much what we want, including taking it out on Shias, Ahmadiyyas, Ismailis, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Jews, and especially, Hindus.
#120 Posted by semipreciousme on November 4, 2002 10:26:09 pm
harimau:
``It is time for someone like Advani to threaten massive retaliation and prove it by launching one concentrated strike against some Pak city with conventionally armed Prithvi rockets. A couple of hundred of those buzz bombs hitting Islamabad with conventional 2000-lb iron bombs when the next Indian soldier is killed with a promise that thousands more are on their launching pads ought to bring Mushy and his cohorts sobering thoughts about whether the 72 houris are really worth it. ``
...wonderful...so everytime a militant crosses the loc and kills, hundreds should be bomed in retaliation in some sort of gruesome game of one-up manship...time for liberia, sierra leone, congo, rawanda et al to start bombing the hell outta each other...and we only have to take a look at the middle east to see how well such payback works...
``Bin Laden is talking about suppression of Muslims in Chechnya or Palestine, which are not his homelands. I am talking about my country, India``
...as far as i remember, bin laden also whimper about us troops `taking over` the eversopure saudi soil...
``Well, if the Pakistanis can dish it out to the Afghans, they should be willing to take it themselves, don`t you think? At least, in this case I would not then accuse them of having one rule for Muslims and another for kaffirs.``
...so, in effect, 9/11 was justified, right?...i mean since the americans can `dish` it out, they should be able to take it...
``It is time for someone like Advani to threaten massive retaliation and prove it by launching one concentrated strike against some Pak city with conventionally armed Prithvi rockets. A couple of hundred of those buzz bombs hitting Islamabad with conventional 2000-lb iron bombs when the next Indian soldier is killed with a promise that thousands more are on their launching pads ought to bring Mushy and his cohorts sobering thoughts about whether the 72 houris are really worth it. ``
...wonderful...so everytime a militant crosses the loc and kills, hundreds should be bomed in retaliation in some sort of gruesome game of one-up manship...time for liberia, sierra leone, congo, rawanda et al to start bombing the hell outta each other...and we only have to take a look at the middle east to see how well such payback works...
``Bin Laden is talking about suppression of Muslims in Chechnya or Palestine, which are not his homelands. I am talking about my country, India``
...as far as i remember, bin laden also whimper about us troops `taking over` the eversopure saudi soil...
``Well, if the Pakistanis can dish it out to the Afghans, they should be willing to take it themselves, don`t you think? At least, in this case I would not then accuse them of having one rule for Muslims and another for kaffirs.``
...so, in effect, 9/11 was justified, right?...i mean since the americans can `dish` it out, they should be able to take it...
#119 Posted by Urstruly on November 4, 2002 7:50:09 pm
Sattar
You did not reply # 108. That is what you do when confronted and then whine. And I think you give too much credit to yourself of being sarcastic; I dont think you are capable of doing that.
#118 Posted by AAmir on November 4, 2002 7:50:08 pm
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#117 Posted by faisaluno on November 4, 2002 6:25:09 pm
dear arjun_m:
read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times.
A Beautiful Mind From India
Is Putting the Internet on Alert
Wall Street Journal
Nov 4, 2002
Will Manindra Agrawal bring about the end of the Internet as we know it? The question is not as ridiculous as it was just two months ago.
Prof. Agrawal is a 36-year old theoretical computer scientist at the Indian Institute of Technology in Kanpur, India. In August, he solved a problem that had eluded mathematicians for millennia: developing a method to determine with complete certainty if a number is prime.
Prime numbers are those divisible only by themselves and 1. While small primes like 5 or 17 are easy to spot, for very large numbers, those hundreds of digits long, there never had been a formula of ``primality testing`` that didn`t have a slight chance of error.
Besides being a show-stopping bit of mathematics, the work was big news for the Internet. Very large prime numbers are the bedrock of Internet encryption, the sort your browser uses when you are shopping online.
That encryption system takes two big, and secret, prime numbers and multiplies them. For a bad guy to decrypt your message, he`d need to take the product of that multiplication and figure out the two prime numbers used to generate it. It`s called the ``factoring problem,`` and fortunately it`s something no one on Earth knows how to do quickly. A speedy method of factoring would make existing Internet security useless, not a pleasant thought in this Internet age.
Prof. Agrawal`s work involved only testing whether a number is prime, not the factoring problem. Still, there are enough connections and similarities between the two that mathematicians and computer scientists from all over the East Coast flew in to hear Prof. Agrawal on a whirlwind tour last week through the likes of M.I.T., Harvard and Princeton.
At Princeton, Prof. Agrawal`s lecture was the sort of deep math that only the most beautiful minds could understand. In a subsequent, and more lay-friendly, interview he said he started his work three years ago. He was dealing with a different problem, called identity testing, when he noticed the solution hinted at a potential fresh assault on prime-number testing.
It was a long three years. While no slouch in math, Prof. Agrawal said he sometimes had to use Google to find information on the more recondite aspects of number theory. His Eureka! moment came in July. As he was driving his daughter to school on his motor scooter, a particularly complicated mathematical set suddenly fell into place.
The computer scientists who heard Prof. Agrawal speak said, with considerable pride, that he was obviously one of them, because of the way he proceeded purposely -- ``algorithmically`` is the word they used -- toward his goal. (As computer scientists tell it, mathematicians tend to be too showy and discursive about things.)
Prof. Agrawal is the first to admit that his work, for all its elegant math, has no immediate practical application. He says the current tests for prime numbers, even with their slight chance of error, are good enough for most people, as well as extremely fast.
Still, will he now move on to the factoring challenge? Yes, in due time.
The best current method of factoring, he explains, is the Number Field Sieve. ``Best`` is a relative term, since all the computers in the world would still need untold trillions of years to use the system to factor just one big number.
Prof. Agrawal writes the Number Field Sieve equation on a piece of paper, looks at it and winces. ``Factoring is a natural problem. And natural problems should have a natural complexity to them. But this,`` he says, pointing to the equation, ``this is not natural complexity. This looks very strange. There must be something more natural than this out there.``
What he doesn`t yet know, however, is whether a more ``natural`` approach to factoring also would be appreciably faster than current methods. And that, of course, is the $64 billion question.
Most mathematicians say they don`t lose any sleep about waking up and finding the factoring problem solved. It`s just too hard, they say. (This difficulty was the very reason the method was chosen for Internet security in the first place.)
But others, like Princeton math professor Peter Sarnak who hosted Prof. Agrawal on campus last week, aren`t so convinced of the factoring problem`s eternal intractability. The fact that one venerable mathematics problem has just been solved, said Prof. Sarnak, might inspire new assaults on factoring, possibly even using some of Prof. Agrawal`s techniques.
Prof. Agrawal said factoring will have to wait a few years; he wants to warm up with something easier, like ``derandomizing polynomial time algorithms,`` for instance.
The professor worked on primality testing with two of his graduate students: Neeraj Kayal and Nitin Saxena. They had planned to join him on his U.S. victory tour. But the American Embassy in New Delhi, the times being what they are, refused them visas. The two young geniuses had to stay home.
read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times.
A Beautiful Mind From India
Is Putting the Internet on Alert
Wall Street Journal
Nov 4, 2002
Will Manindra Agrawal bring about the end of the Internet as we know it? The question is not as ridiculous as it was just two months ago.
Prof. Agrawal is a 36-year old theoretical computer scientist at the Indian Institute of Technology in Kanpur, India. In August, he solved a problem that had eluded mathematicians for millennia: developing a method to determine with complete certainty if a number is prime.
Prime numbers are those divisible only by themselves and 1. While small primes like 5 or 17 are easy to spot, for very large numbers, those hundreds of digits long, there never had been a formula of ``primality testing`` that didn`t have a slight chance of error.
Besides being a show-stopping bit of mathematics, the work was big news for the Internet. Very large prime numbers are the bedrock of Internet encryption, the sort your browser uses when you are shopping online.
That encryption system takes two big, and secret, prime numbers and multiplies them. For a bad guy to decrypt your message, he`d need to take the product of that multiplication and figure out the two prime numbers used to generate it. It`s called the ``factoring problem,`` and fortunately it`s something no one on Earth knows how to do quickly. A speedy method of factoring would make existing Internet security useless, not a pleasant thought in this Internet age.
Prof. Agrawal`s work involved only testing whether a number is prime, not the factoring problem. Still, there are enough connections and similarities between the two that mathematicians and computer scientists from all over the East Coast flew in to hear Prof. Agrawal on a whirlwind tour last week through the likes of M.I.T., Harvard and Princeton.
At Princeton, Prof. Agrawal`s lecture was the sort of deep math that only the most beautiful minds could understand. In a subsequent, and more lay-friendly, interview he said he started his work three years ago. He was dealing with a different problem, called identity testing, when he noticed the solution hinted at a potential fresh assault on prime-number testing.
It was a long three years. While no slouch in math, Prof. Agrawal said he sometimes had to use Google to find information on the more recondite aspects of number theory. His Eureka! moment came in July. As he was driving his daughter to school on his motor scooter, a particularly complicated mathematical set suddenly fell into place.
The computer scientists who heard Prof. Agrawal speak said, with considerable pride, that he was obviously one of them, because of the way he proceeded purposely -- ``algorithmically`` is the word they used -- toward his goal. (As computer scientists tell it, mathematicians tend to be too showy and discursive about things.)
Prof. Agrawal is the first to admit that his work, for all its elegant math, has no immediate practical application. He says the current tests for prime numbers, even with their slight chance of error, are good enough for most people, as well as extremely fast.
Still, will he now move on to the factoring challenge? Yes, in due time.
The best current method of factoring, he explains, is the Number Field Sieve. ``Best`` is a relative term, since all the computers in the world would still need untold trillions of years to use the system to factor just one big number.
Prof. Agrawal writes the Number Field Sieve equation on a piece of paper, looks at it and winces. ``Factoring is a natural problem. And natural problems should have a natural complexity to them. But this,`` he says, pointing to the equation, ``this is not natural complexity. This looks very strange. There must be something more natural than this out there.``
What he doesn`t yet know, however, is whether a more ``natural`` approach to factoring also would be appreciably faster than current methods. And that, of course, is the $64 billion question.
Most mathematicians say they don`t lose any sleep about waking up and finding the factoring problem solved. It`s just too hard, they say. (This difficulty was the very reason the method was chosen for Internet security in the first place.)
But others, like Princeton math professor Peter Sarnak who hosted Prof. Agrawal on campus last week, aren`t so convinced of the factoring problem`s eternal intractability. The fact that one venerable mathematics problem has just been solved, said Prof. Sarnak, might inspire new assaults on factoring, possibly even using some of Prof. Agrawal`s techniques.
Prof. Agrawal said factoring will have to wait a few years; he wants to warm up with something easier, like ``derandomizing polynomial time algorithms,`` for instance.
The professor worked on primality testing with two of his graduate students: Neeraj Kayal and Nitin Saxena. They had planned to join him on his U.S. victory tour. But the American Embassy in New Delhi, the times being what they are, refused them visas. The two young geniuses had to stay home.
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