Islamic Utopia?

re: faisaluno

{read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times. }

a) it`s good to know that some brilliant fundamental research is being done in india - much better than preparing kids for jehad, isn`t it?

b) those visa denials probably had nothing to do with terrorism, but more to do with scaling back of visas for young people who are likely to stay back in the US for economic reasons...previously, many scientists were denied visas because of the nuclear tests...again, very different from terrorism

c) indian citizens entering the US are not being fingerprinted on suspicion of being terrorists like saudis, sudanese, iraqis, pakistanis, and egyptians are

d) i thought pakistanis looked soooo different from indians...hehe...so why are you now trying to find solace in ``brown man`` unity?

....dude, you`re a joke...

sattar#92

``Scholarly evaluation … by a mullah who also tells us to believe in … what else … but a prophet residing above the clouds … for two thousand years … who will one day descend to earth on the shoulders of two angels … ``

Once again Mr Sattar you have NO point at all. I will not teach you how to put forward a reasonable argument, but this is definitely not the way.
Now as far as Qadiyani Masala is concerned I would gladly answer any criticism you have on any of the points therein, but what you wrote is NOT a criticism on anything in that book.

You took off from the last board without answering any of my querries, which I repost (so no muslim may be misled by the ahmadiyyah beliefs)

1. Why did the sahaba RA fight against each and every calimant to Prophrthood?

The muslim explination: There was NO question of trying to determine whether this person was a Prophet because they knew as told by Rasool Allah SAW that there would be no Prophets after him.

we await the qadiyani response

2. Why have ulema for 1400 yrs consistently interpreted (and an obvious interpretation it is) the verse on Finality in one way and not in the fantastic way Mr Ghulam Ahmed did?

The muslim explination: Because it follows from the context, it follows from arabic lexicography, it follows from saheeh hadith. it follows from the acts of Sahaba

we await the qadiyani response

3. You find Nozool e Issa strange, yet you are prepared to believe in the rebirth of Hazrat Issa AS as Mirza Sahib, who took his own sweet time in discovering that he indeed was Hazrat Isaa AS, time spent as a non gazetted officer in Her Majesty`s service may I add

The qadiyani response is awaited

4. What do you say to Mirza Sahibs unfulfilled prophesies about Maulana Sanaullah, about an heir, about Mohammadi Begum? I could go on

The qadiyani response is awaited

Many more of such very valid objections have been raised by Malana Maudoodi in Qadiyani Masala, take the time out to read it, i have taken time out to read the Ahmadiyyah literature (part of it at least) if you want to debate the issue decency dictates you read muslim literature and not comment on something you have no idea about.

Furthermore muslim scholars from Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz to Allama Iqbal to Maudoodi to Ulema of Deoband, Barelvi, Ahle Hadith Isna Ahari Shia schools have been unanimous in declaring Ahmadiyyah non muslims.
Likewise the good mirza and his khulufa have declared all muslims to be kafirs rt Mr Sattar????

I would not have bothered to reply to your childish post but the thought that a muslim might become more knowledgeable about this issue led me to post this detailed reply.
I await your response and hope it would be more educated than your previous post

May Allahs blessings be on the belivers
Adnan

Ref faisaluno`s ecstasy at being a Muslim.

Hey Abdul, here is something for you:

Open Letter to All New Converts to Islam

By Al Mansur

Assalaammualaikum

Praise be to Allah.

Now that you have believed in the True Religion, it is time for you to have a deeper understanding of Islam. It is my most sincere wish that you make your Muslim cleric, friend or spouse who helped you ‘revert to Islam’ proud and pleasantly surprised by your knowledge in Islam and by how fast you can come to having the correct views of a true believer. Remember, the only correct perspective in this world, is a Muslim’s.

The first step of achieving this (if you have not already done so) is to stop asking them irritating questions such as what is Islam’s stand on 9/11, killings of Christians, Hindus etc. in Egypt, Sudan, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, Nigeria, southern Philippines, Kashmir etc. thereby forcing him to repeat for the umpteenth time that “Islam means Peace” and that “These Killers are not Real Muslims”.

Remember that you are a Muslim now. Instead of causing him to waste his time lying to you when he has a lot of other better things to do, such as lying to another potential convert, you should be helping him attend to and guide the infinite number of potential converts. Remember … you are no longer a customer but an employee now. Thus, the advertisements and sales presentations are no longer meant for you [Anyway all your answers are found in the Quran, so read it yourself]

I would encourage you to have faith in yourself and never underestimate your potential just because you are a new convert. Tariq ibn Ziyad and Khalid ibn Al-Walid who led Muslim excursions into other people’s countries to conquer, pillage, rape and did other great things for Islam were new converts when they started off in their careers. I regret however, that prior to converting, they were part of the armies who resisted Islam. But anyhow, they and their infidel compatriots became Muslims after some “prompting” and “persuasion”. All’s well that end’s well.

Let me share with you some other baby steps as a New Muslim to make your Muslim proselyter proud:

1) Propagate Islam

You have found the truth and it is Allah’s will that others should know the truth. Allah in his infinite wisdom has provided the most ingenious method of converting unbelievers. You can start of with just a sword (so long as it is sharp enough to separate body parts, it will do). This method is FAST, HIGHLY EFFECTIVE, COST EFFICIENT and not to mention COMPELLING. For more details, please see the Quran and the Hadiths.

How much time, effort and money have Ahmad Deedat and Jeremiah McAuliffe spent just to win a handful of converts? Using the method in the Quran, Muhammad (peace be upon him… coz’ if you’re non-Muslim, it’s rest in peace) and his Companions had Islam in Spain within less than a century. Praise be to Allah.

2) You are at War against Unbelievers

Don’t’ forget that it’s okay that these infidels die because they only THINK that their religion is true whereas you KNOW that yours is true.

[For more information see Shaykh Sa’eed ibn Wahf al-Qahtaani’s The Levels of Jihaad - Its merits and the reason for gaining victory over enemies © 1997 The Invitation to Islam, UK at Islaam.com]

3) Kill the Apostates

For this is the will of Allah. After all, wouldn’t you expect your “brothers and sisters in Islam” to do the same for you should you change your mind about Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and you renouncing Islam, is just bad for business. No offence.

Anyway, as Muslims always say “Islam is the most …. if not the only logical religion”. Any village idiot would know that. If you do not have the common sense to see this, you truly deserve to be shot.

4) Champion the cause of Muslims and Islam in the country that you live

If you’re from the UK, support Yusuf Islam a.k.a Cat Stevens campaign for public funding of Muslim schools in Britain. This only seems fair. Although Britain is officially a Christian country it has a growing Muslim minority whereas Saudi Arabia which is officially a Muslim country, does not have a Christian minority. (Saudi Arabia has already exterminated and expelled their Christians and Jews centuries ago)

One should NOT ONLY discourage public funding of Christian schools in say Pakistan, but should have Christian schools abolish altogether. This is because these schools make ready targets of non-Muslim children for PEACE-LOVING Muslims.

5) Champion the Cause of Muslims Worldwide

For example, be supportive of the Palestinian cause (as oppose to just showing sympathy for Palestinians like many Westerners). Death to Israel !!! A million martyrs shall march on Jerusalem !!! After all, Muhammad (peace be upon him) has declared war on the Jews and killed as well as raped them many centuries before the formation of the State of Israel.

The Kurds, like the Palestinians are stateless, predominantly Sunni Muslims, have stayed in their land for centuries, have their political aspirations suppressed, have thousands of their innocent civilians killed by chemical weapons (oops, I’m sorry this is applicable to the Kurds only). But who the hell cares so long as it is done by brother Muslims, right?

6) If you’re A Woman, please be supportive of your Muslim husband

If he was to subdue your unbelieving neighbours/friends/family members and thereafter proceed to have sexual intercourse with the women (that may include your sisters, sister-in-laws and best friends), this does not mean that he is unfaithful or that he does not love you (and his other wives, as the case may be). Don’t’ forget to tell him to ejaculate into them pursuant to Muhammad’s advice.

FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah`s messenger we said, ``Oh Allah`s messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?`` The prophet said, ``Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.``

FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 9, #506:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, ``It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection``. Qaza`a said, ``I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, ``No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.````

God’s laws are higher than man’s.

[Note : If you are a Woman Convert, don’t be discouraged just because the Special Incentive Package for martyrs (i.e. 72 virgins in Paradise with a lifetime warranty of renewable virginity) does not benefit you. If it’s any consolation, remember Islam respects and liberates women. What has your previous religion done for you?]

Remember Islam First, Humanity Second.

Ref arjun_m #106

[Unless India becomes a flawless utopia, there will always be Pakistanis who use whatever flaw they can find to justify what they are doing.}

Don`t be too harsh on the Pakistanis.

If India becomes a Muslim-majority country, then we will be allowed to do pretty much what we want, including taking it out on Shias, Ahmadiyyas, Ismailis, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Jews, and especially, Hindus.

harimau:


``It is time for someone like Advani to threaten massive retaliation and prove it by launching one concentrated strike against some Pak city with conventionally armed Prithvi rockets. A couple of hundred of those buzz bombs hitting Islamabad with conventional 2000-lb iron bombs when the next Indian soldier is killed with a promise that thousands more are on their launching pads ought to bring Mushy and his cohorts sobering thoughts about whether the 72 houris are really worth it. ``


...wonderful...so everytime a militant crosses the loc and kills, hundreds should be bomed in retaliation in some sort of gruesome game of one-up manship...time for liberia, sierra leone, congo, rawanda et al to start bombing the hell outta each other...and we only have to take a look at the middle east to see how well such payback works...




``Bin Laden is talking about suppression of Muslims in Chechnya or Palestine, which are not his homelands. I am talking about my country, India``



...as far as i remember, bin laden also whimper about us troops `taking over` the eversopure saudi soil...



``Well, if the Pakistanis can dish it out to the Afghans, they should be willing to take it themselves, don`t you think? At least, in this case I would not then accuse them of having one rule for Muslims and another for kaffirs.``



...so, in effect, 9/11 was justified, right?...i mean since the americans can `dish` it out, they should be able to take it...

Sattar

You did not reply # 108. That is what you do when confronted and then whine. And I think you give too much credit to yourself of being sarcastic; I dont think you are capable of doing that.

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dear arjun_m:

read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times.

A Beautiful Mind From India
Is Putting the Internet on Alert
Wall Street Journal
Nov 4, 2002


Will Manindra Agrawal bring about the end of the Internet as we know it? The question is not as ridiculous as it was just two months ago.

Prof. Agrawal is a 36-year old theoretical computer scientist at the Indian Institute of Technology in Kanpur, India. In August, he solved a problem that had eluded mathematicians for millennia: developing a method to determine with complete certainty if a number is prime.

Prime numbers are those divisible only by themselves and 1. While small primes like 5 or 17 are easy to spot, for very large numbers, those hundreds of digits long, there never had been a formula of ``primality testing`` that didn`t have a slight chance of error.

Besides being a show-stopping bit of mathematics, the work was big news for the Internet. Very large prime numbers are the bedrock of Internet encryption, the sort your browser uses when you are shopping online.

That encryption system takes two big, and secret, prime numbers and multiplies them. For a bad guy to decrypt your message, he`d need to take the product of that multiplication and figure out the two prime numbers used to generate it. It`s called the ``factoring problem,`` and fortunately it`s something no one on Earth knows how to do quickly. A speedy method of factoring would make existing Internet security useless, not a pleasant thought in this Internet age.

Prof. Agrawal`s work involved only testing whether a number is prime, not the factoring problem. Still, there are enough connections and similarities between the two that mathematicians and computer scientists from all over the East Coast flew in to hear Prof. Agrawal on a whirlwind tour last week through the likes of M.I.T., Harvard and Princeton.

At Princeton, Prof. Agrawal`s lecture was the sort of deep math that only the most beautiful minds could understand. In a subsequent, and more lay-friendly, interview he said he started his work three years ago. He was dealing with a different problem, called identity testing, when he noticed the solution hinted at a potential fresh assault on prime-number testing.

It was a long three years. While no slouch in math, Prof. Agrawal said he sometimes had to use Google to find information on the more recondite aspects of number theory. His Eureka! moment came in July. As he was driving his daughter to school on his motor scooter, a particularly complicated mathematical set suddenly fell into place.

The computer scientists who heard Prof. Agrawal speak said, with considerable pride, that he was obviously one of them, because of the way he proceeded purposely -- ``algorithmically`` is the word they used -- toward his goal. (As computer scientists tell it, mathematicians tend to be too showy and discursive about things.)

Prof. Agrawal is the first to admit that his work, for all its elegant math, has no immediate practical application. He says the current tests for prime numbers, even with their slight chance of error, are good enough for most people, as well as extremely fast.

Still, will he now move on to the factoring challenge? Yes, in due time.

The best current method of factoring, he explains, is the Number Field Sieve. ``Best`` is a relative term, since all the computers in the world would still need untold trillions of years to use the system to factor just one big number.

Prof. Agrawal writes the Number Field Sieve equation on a piece of paper, looks at it and winces. ``Factoring is a natural problem. And natural problems should have a natural complexity to them. But this,`` he says, pointing to the equation, ``this is not natural complexity. This looks very strange. There must be something more natural than this out there.``

What he doesn`t yet know, however, is whether a more ``natural`` approach to factoring also would be appreciably faster than current methods. And that, of course, is the $64 billion question.

Most mathematicians say they don`t lose any sleep about waking up and finding the factoring problem solved. It`s just too hard, they say. (This difficulty was the very reason the method was chosen for Internet security in the first place.)

But others, like Princeton math professor Peter Sarnak who hosted Prof. Agrawal on campus last week, aren`t so convinced of the factoring problem`s eternal intractability. The fact that one venerable mathematics problem has just been solved, said Prof. Sarnak, might inspire new assaults on factoring, possibly even using some of Prof. Agrawal`s techniques.

Prof. Agrawal said factoring will have to wait a few years; he wants to warm up with something easier, like ``derandomizing polynomial time algorithms,`` for instance.

The professor worked on primality testing with two of his graduate students: Neeraj Kayal and Nitin Saxena. They had planned to join him on his U.S. victory tour. But the American Embassy in New Delhi, the times being what they are, refused them visas. The two young geniuses had to stay home.

Re Ashok (#100):

Here are some thoughts on flying prophets, bloodthirsty men of god, and religion …

A person should be free to subscribe to any set of beliefs. It becomes an issue when … religion is used as a tool for exploitation and violence.

One of the dilemmas of mainstream Islam is that … on one hand … Islamic scholars point to scientific principles mentioned in Quran … to underscore its divine origins. On the other hand … these scholars tell us stories of flying prophets, prophets raising dead, practicing magic, parting oceans, and eating from the forbidden tree and getting tossed out of paradise. One can only wonder … how this blatant contradiction between science and religion can escape an inquiring mind.

It would not be a big issue if scriptural contradictions were limited to mullah’s physical understanding of the world. However, this contradiction has seeped into mullah’s social outlook as well. On one hand we are told that Islam aims to achieve justice and peace in our communities … and on the other hand mullahs tell us that blasphemers and apostates should be executed … that jihad must be waged against polytheists … that Ahmadis should be imprisoned for declaring Islam as their religion ... fornicators should be stoned to death, and so on. Here again, stark contradiction in mullah’s interpretation of Islam … seems to have completely escaped them. Pain and suffering inflicted on humanity in the name of God … needs not much of a discussion.

As a Muslim, albeit not a mainstream one, I believe that Islam, as well as Hinduism, and Christianity, and other revealed religions … have their origins in the same divine source … the God Almighty. Contradiction between science and Quran points to an inadequate understanding of Quran on one’s behalf. Executing apostates and blasphemers or waging jihad on polytheists or imprisoning Ahmadis … all on basis of Islam … also indicates incorrect understanding of Quran and Islam. Furthermore, flying prophets and prophets raising the dead etc. are inventions of human imagination and biases … that have found their way in understating of religion and interpretation of the scripture. Sadly, human biases and frailties are also the main culprits for violence perpetuated in the name of religion.

Anny (#103):

Your point is well taken … albeit with a caveat, owing to a history between Adnan Sahib, Ustruly Sahib, and myself. These gentleman, and their likes that I come across frequently, tell me that I am an enemy of Islam who is misrepresenting teachings of Quran, and whose community is justifiably persecuted. This is often followed by false accusations and propaganda about Mirza Sahib and the Ahmadi-Muslim community.

Most of the times I am able to handle such moments alright, and put them behind me. However, owing to my own weaknesses, sometimes I lose patience, and retort with sarcasm and edgy wit … aimed at highlighting flaws and absurdities in the other person’s approach.

Despite these reasons … your point remains valid … that I should not respond in kind, at all, when I come across folks with dissenting points of views. Your comments serve as a good reminder.

dost-mittar (#105):

Me … Punjabi … with a name like sattar?

In genetic terms … you are partially right. However, growing up in Karachi washed away the Punjabi cultural influence that I may have had from one side of the family. I guess I am more of a Karachiite … than anything else.

[PS: Was that supposed to be a joke on me … or on Punjabis?]

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To expect Pakistan to reform only when India has attained utopia is stupidity. People in Pakistan who hate India will always find a reason to do so. The same applies to India too.
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arjun ji,
why it is stupidity to ape india.what is your reason to hate pakistan.finally,
do you always bark or sometime you are in human mould also?

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khamkhwa #107 Please dont confuse arjun with facts about India and by wishing him happy diwale and and wishing all the best to India. According to his doctors this causes severe cognitive dissonance, causing his head to start spinning like a top while the rest of the body is becomes motionless like a statue.