Islamic Utopia?
Yasser Latif Hamdani October 30, 2002
#174 Posted by rsridhar on November 9, 2002 11:12:31 am
re:#143 by Karakoram
Expanding on the Cow theme further, early vedic hindus did not worship cow. Their way of worshipping was thr` elaborate, ritualistic ceremonies in which animal sacrifice (usually a cow but any animal) formed an important part. At the end of ceremony, the sacrificed animal was eaten.
Read the following article from outlook india which goes into the genesis of cow worship and how Brahmins became vegetarians (not all but a significant number, considering all were meat-eaters):
http://www.outlookindia.com/specialfeaturem.asp?fodname=20021022&fname=ambedkar&sid=2.
None other than BR.Ambedkar wrote the article in 1948
Sridhar
Expanding on the Cow theme further, early vedic hindus did not worship cow. Their way of worshipping was thr` elaborate, ritualistic ceremonies in which animal sacrifice (usually a cow but any animal) formed an important part. At the end of ceremony, the sacrificed animal was eaten.
Read the following article from outlook india which goes into the genesis of cow worship and how Brahmins became vegetarians (not all but a significant number, considering all were meat-eaters):
http://www.outlookindia.com/specialfeaturem.asp?fodname=20021022&fname=ambedkar&sid=2.
None other than BR.Ambedkar wrote the article in 1948
Sridhar
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#173 Posted by rsridhar on November 8, 2002 11:59:19 pm
#44 by faisaluno
``also why do you think one third of the population of the subcontinent so eagerly adapted a value system so different from that of their ancestors?``.
I am a late comer to this forum but your above statement intrigues me. What kind of value system are you talking about? How similar are the muslims in Indian subcontinent to Arabs or Turks?
I think the muslims in Indian subcontinent have retained their distinct culture that has a lot in common with the hindus. A synthetic culture came into being that adopted a lot of Hindu values. One downside that you see in your own country is that even in your society, caste seems to play a role and people are Rajputs, jats etc. Urdu language came out of this synthetic culture that i am talking about and until 1947, was the most popular language of North India (few in those days learned Hindi).
Your assertion that one third of population embraced Islam and so there is something to it makes no sense if you know in what form Islam came into India. It was violent to say the least. People were given liitle choices in the matter of conversion. Still, people have retained their hindu identity or what they considered as worth preserving. In south, you see a lot of muslims who see no reason to flaunt their muslim identity and are well integrated with the hindus. This is true especially in Kerala.
Considering the back breaking experience that hindus have gone thr` in the 10 centuries of muslim rule and the fact that hinduism does not allow for proseletysing and conversions, it is a testimony to the strength of that religion that it has held on and has close to a billion followers today.
Sridhar
``also why do you think one third of the population of the subcontinent so eagerly adapted a value system so different from that of their ancestors?``.
I am a late comer to this forum but your above statement intrigues me. What kind of value system are you talking about? How similar are the muslims in Indian subcontinent to Arabs or Turks?
I think the muslims in Indian subcontinent have retained their distinct culture that has a lot in common with the hindus. A synthetic culture came into being that adopted a lot of Hindu values. One downside that you see in your own country is that even in your society, caste seems to play a role and people are Rajputs, jats etc. Urdu language came out of this synthetic culture that i am talking about and until 1947, was the most popular language of North India (few in those days learned Hindi).
Your assertion that one third of population embraced Islam and so there is something to it makes no sense if you know in what form Islam came into India. It was violent to say the least. People were given liitle choices in the matter of conversion. Still, people have retained their hindu identity or what they considered as worth preserving. In south, you see a lot of muslims who see no reason to flaunt their muslim identity and are well integrated with the hindus. This is true especially in Kerala.
Considering the back breaking experience that hindus have gone thr` in the 10 centuries of muslim rule and the fact that hinduism does not allow for proseletysing and conversions, it is a testimony to the strength of that religion that it has held on and has close to a billion followers today.
Sridhar
#172 Posted by rsridhar on November 8, 2002 11:59:19 pm
re:#83 by Studebaker
It is not Advani`s fault (though personally i am against his brand of politics). He was rejected by the natives of his land (Sindh) but he found a new home in India, which not only welcomed him and others like him but even tolerated his extreme views. No wonder he is so ultra-national.
Sridhar
It is not Advani`s fault (though personally i am against his brand of politics). He was rejected by the natives of his land (Sindh) but he found a new home in India, which not only welcomed him and others like him but even tolerated his extreme views. No wonder he is so ultra-national.
Sridhar
#171 Posted by rsridhar on November 8, 2002 11:59:19 pm
re:#90 by faisaluno
I am beginning to like you. You make one blunder after another and yet put up a brave face. Who are you guy? Do i know you? What were you in your previous avatar? Surely you sound familiar but i am unable to place you.
This is a gem: ``thanks also for taking east pakistan off our hands. i certainly do not want my tax rupee subsidizing another basket case economy.``
I hope you are still living on planet earth. Bangladesh, last i heard, was developing faster than Pakistan. It certainly does not subsist on IMF dole. Its micro-credit concept (through Grameen Banks) is being duplicated in many developing countries including India.
Go to: http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/bangladesh/bangladesh_economy.htm
and read about Bangladesh economy and let me know how Pak is better off. Bangladesh has less external debt and recorded 5.3% GDP growth in 2001. Pak`s growth hovers around 3% at best.
Go to: http://www.gdrc.org/icm/grameen-info.html and learn all about Grameen Banks of Bangladesh. This is something that Pakistan can emulate.
It is pathetic that in this era of internet and IT, you are steeped in so much ignorance.
Sridhar
I am beginning to like you. You make one blunder after another and yet put up a brave face. Who are you guy? Do i know you? What were you in your previous avatar? Surely you sound familiar but i am unable to place you.
This is a gem: ``thanks also for taking east pakistan off our hands. i certainly do not want my tax rupee subsidizing another basket case economy.``
I hope you are still living on planet earth. Bangladesh, last i heard, was developing faster than Pakistan. It certainly does not subsist on IMF dole. Its micro-credit concept (through Grameen Banks) is being duplicated in many developing countries including India.
Go to: http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/bangladesh/bangladesh_economy.htm
and read about Bangladesh economy and let me know how Pak is better off. Bangladesh has less external debt and recorded 5.3% GDP growth in 2001. Pak`s growth hovers around 3% at best.
Go to: http://www.gdrc.org/icm/grameen-info.html and learn all about Grameen Banks of Bangladesh. This is something that Pakistan can emulate.
It is pathetic that in this era of internet and IT, you are steeped in so much ignorance.
Sridhar
#170 Posted by rsridhar on November 8, 2002 11:59:19 pm
#142 by faisaluno
``what have you guys got from uncle sam besides escaping the formality of not being finger printed upon arrival in the u.s.?``
We have our A$$ intact. Have you?
Pun aside, what kind of stock market recovery are you talking about? Post the facts.
Sridhar
``what have you guys got from uncle sam besides escaping the formality of not being finger printed upon arrival in the u.s.?``
We have our A$$ intact. Have you?
Pun aside, what kind of stock market recovery are you talking about? Post the facts.
Sridhar
#169 Posted by rsridhar on November 8, 2002 11:59:19 pm
re:#143 by Karakoram
Holy Cow is the legacy of some distant past. Those who think it is holy are welcome to think so. I do not and i am a brahmin.
What happened to Dalits is despicable. Race relations in India are very precarious. What is at work here is that upper castes see Dalits making rapid strides politically and economically and seize upon such flimsy reasons to punish them. But, mark my word. Dalits are on the rise and it is a good thing for India.
CM of UP is a dalit woman. Ex-president K.R. Narayanan was a Dalit.
Even though cow is considered holy by most hindus, one researcher recently published a well researched book where he forcefully argues that most brahmins in the Vedic times ate beef. He quotes scriptures to prove his point. Needless to say, he has gotten himself into trouble with Hindutva elements.
Sridhar
Holy Cow is the legacy of some distant past. Those who think it is holy are welcome to think so. I do not and i am a brahmin.
What happened to Dalits is despicable. Race relations in India are very precarious. What is at work here is that upper castes see Dalits making rapid strides politically and economically and seize upon such flimsy reasons to punish them. But, mark my word. Dalits are on the rise and it is a good thing for India.
CM of UP is a dalit woman. Ex-president K.R. Narayanan was a Dalit.
Even though cow is considered holy by most hindus, one researcher recently published a well researched book where he forcefully argues that most brahmins in the Vedic times ate beef. He quotes scriptures to prove his point. Needless to say, he has gotten himself into trouble with Hindutva elements.
Sridhar
#168 Posted by sattar2 on November 8, 2002 3:58:53 pm
Urstruly;
Waging jihad against polytheists for simply preaching… is jihad for nothing. This is against Quranic teachings … but your mullahs insist otherwise. Your mullahs also justify killing apostates and blasphemers and adulterers. There is no basis for any of this in Islam … and Quran makes this abundantly clear.
The web-site of your mullahs is full of baseless propaganda against Mirza Sahib … which indicates their inability to deal with Ahmadi-Muslim viewpoint on intellectual basis.
Now, it does not matter … whether you consider Ahmadis as Muslims … or not. However, when your mullahs insist on imprisoning Ahmadis for reciting kalima … and incite mobs to violence … it shows jihalaat. Such behavior is not becoming of a decent human being … or a god-fearing Muslim. That`s all I am trying to say here.
Your inability to deal with my viewpoint is evidenced by your evasiveness towards issues I highlighted. This goes to show that mullah’s Islam has been reduced to a hollow, political ideology … devoid of dignity and full of barbarism.
I’ll make this my last post … unless you say something worth responding to. Good luck … and have a good Ramazan.
#166 Posted by Urstruly on November 8, 2002 12:16:25 pm
Sattar # 165
Your post # 165 still does not answer my questions which I have been asking for the past 20 posts or so. However, I did answer all your questions regarding Mehdi, Messiah, dancing prophets on the clouds, etc. But as predicted you did not like my answer. Actually, you dont get the point that, I do not care what your religion is or what the beleives you beleive in, whether they are absurd or not, what do I care; however, I do have a problem when you call those beleives Islam. Thank you very much but I dont buy. And I dont think we should start another topic (Mirza Sahib) unless you answer my questions which I have already asked. But let me guess again, that you can`t and you wont.
I did not slander Mirza Sahib; the writing is Mirza Sahib`s own in his ``Tohafa-e-Qaisarya (A Present to the Queen ) Qadian, 1897 p. 27``. The book though written over hundered years ago is still available. And by the way where the hell did I propose as you write ``Contrast it with your own viewpoint … which demands jihad against polytheists for no reason.`` Here is my article on Jihad and in reply section there are 10`s of replies also written by me on the subject. If you can prove what you just said I will leave chowk for good. But allow me to predict that you can`t and you wont.
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001154&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1
#165 Posted by sattar2 on November 8, 2002 11:20:16 am
Urstruly (#162, 160):
Here’s a helpful suggestion. Read your post #162 again … and tell me how does it help? It does not rid your Islam of its contradictions and absurdities … which is your real dilemma.
Your behavior is strikingly similar to that of kuffar, as mentioned in Quran, when they felt threatened by Islam and could no longer deny its truthfulness. They called the dear Prophet (pbuh) names, spread rumors against him and his family, and resorted to violence against Muslims.
You are now feeling threatened by Ahmadi-Islam and are unable to find faults with Ahmadi-Islam. Unable to deal with your frustration, you go on to slander a prophet of Allah, Mirza Sahib (pbuh) … while your mullahs continue to excite mobs to violence against Ahmadi-Muslims.
If you can argue in favor of your Islam … why is all this slandering necessary? Case in point is … an excerpt from the writings of Mirza Shib’s exposition of jihad … that someone posted on another board. One cannot deny the majesty of this writing … so you go on to slander Mirza Sahib. Here’s a link. Read it … and ponder over it. Contrast it with your own viewpoint … which demands jihad against polytheists for no reason.
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001532&channel=civic%20center&start=20&end=29&page=3&chapter=1#14
I can discuss Mirza Sahib with you … but it would be futile if you cannot even accept the basic flaws of your Islam. See my post #146 for details. Once you acknowledge contradictions of your Islam … that I earlier pointed out … we can move on to Mirza Sahib. Deal?
#164 Posted by sattar2 on November 7, 2002 4:53:45 pm
Aamir (#161):
If you see “gaping holes” in my answer … you can ask me … without accusing me. Right? Your response was somewhat irresponsible and immature. Moving on …
I differentiated revealed religions … from man-made religions. Revealed religions are inspired by God Almighty …through prophets. However, if a person initiates a religion on his own … based upon his own ideas … without divine revelations … that would be a man-made religion.
I have explained earlier … belief is a personal matter. It becomes important only when … it is used as a tool for oppression and violence. Since mullahs use Islam to persecute my community of Ahmadi-Muslims … and I have a working knowledge of Islam and Quran … I sometimes highlight absurdities in mullah’s Islam. I occasionally pick on them here on Chowk … because of a few mullahs onboard.
You incorrectly accused me of agreeing with other religions for political reasons. Such a blatant, baseless accusation should be an embarrassment for you. Anyway, following is my response.
As I stated … the original teachings of these religions … were revealed by God Almighty. Broadly speaking, these teachings consisted of worshipping God Almighty … and having love and compassion for His creations. Later, man-made distortions crept into people’s understanding of religion … mortal men were given status of god … religion is used as basis for violence … supernatural attributes are associated with humans … and so on. The original teachings of all religions … worship of God and love for His creations … are the basis of Islam as well. It is the uncorrupted teachings of each revealed religion, Islam included … that I fully agree with … and not with the man-made distortions that were later introduced in them.
Now, if you have more questions … ask like a gentleman. Avoid making assumptions … and accusations. If in doubt … ask politely … and you cannot go wrong.
#162 Posted by Urstruly on November 7, 2002 9:31:05 am
Sattar
Since you wont answer my post after repeated requests allow me to answer your questions regarding Mehdi, vehdi, messiah, vessiah, prophet, shrophet, and off course 2000 year old prophets dancing in the clouds. But first let me share this gem with the audience here:
``After the death of my father and brother I led a retired life. But nevertheless I have been employing my pen in the service of British Government. In all the works that I have written I have preached loyality to and sympathy with the British Government I have made effective speeches against Jehad. I wrote books in Arabic and Persian costing me thousands of rupees (Italics added) . All those books were disseminated in Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Baghdad and Afghanistan. I am sure they will bear fruit some day...... wrote many works out of sincere loyality to the British Government otherwise I had little to gain by sending them in Arabia, Syria and Islamic world.”
Author: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani Tohafa-e-Qaisarya (A Present to the Queen ) Qadian, 1897 p. 27
And here is rest of my reply. It will also explain why Mirza Sahib wrote the above gem. Allow me to predict that you wont like my reply again this time either:
http://alhafeez.org/rashid/british-jewish/bjc_2.htm
#161 Posted by AAmir on November 7, 2002 5:16:37 am
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#159 Posted by sattar2 on November 6, 2002 3:58:53 pm
Aamir (#153):
You seem to have jumped the gun … accusing me of being evasive and more. If you want clarification … all you have to do is ask … and I will respond accordingly. But there is hardly any need for hurling accusations the way you did.
It seems that you have already made up your mind … and assumed my position, and motives, on various issues … without asking for clarification. I thought I had earnestly and sincerely responded to your questions … and that you probably will have more comments … that may be discussed in later posts. But I did not expect you to adopt an offensive tone the way you did.
You have clearly misunderstood, and incorrectly assumed, my position on various issues. You should reassess your attitude before going further…
#158 Posted by arjun_m on November 6, 2002 2:29:47 pm
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#157 Posted by arjun_m on November 6, 2002 1:11:18 pm
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#156 Posted by sattar2 on November 6, 2002 1:11:18 pm
Urstruly (#151):
You may also predict that the sun will rise tomorrow … but that does not mean anything. I hope you have better ways to attempt to prove your intelligence. On the other hand believing in prophets living in the heavens … or raising the dead … indicate lack of intelligence. I hope you can appreciate this basic point.
I can explain … how you initially ignored the issue of prophet-in-the-sky … then tried to distance your Islam from it … took a stance against Maudoodi and your mullahs … became silent when I highlighted your contradictions … and are now back to flip-flopping your position on this issue.
But before this … you should acknowledge … your continued silence on a host of issues I highlighted in post #146. No sane person can subscribe to such absurdities.
Also … the issue is not “dead prophets waiting in heaven” … as you suggested in #108. It is … a prophet living in the skies for two thousand years … who will finally descend to earth. Your flip-flopping position is further highlighted by the fact that … despite my prodding you on this issue for almost a year (or more?) … all you seem to be suggesting now is that you have not taken a position on this issue yet.
Any position you take … will only highlight absurdities and contradictions in your Islam. And that’s the dilemma you are faced with ... which explains your silence on various issues I have highlighted.
#155 Posted by sattar2 on November 6, 2002 10:42:09 am
Adnan (#123),
Obviously you are not bothered by your inability to explain absurdities in your Islam. Your concern should not be Ahmadi beliefs … rather your own beliefs here.
You have missed the point. One’s belief … is a personal matter … and becomes important only when it is used to perpetuate oppression and violence. Your Islam may tell you to believe in flying prophets … and that’s just fine. However, when you perpetuate violence in the name of religion … your Islam becomes a dubious, barbaric ideology, designed for political purposes by power-hungry mullahs.
Before discussing other issues … you should recall our earlier debate regarding meaning of “Khattam-un-Nabiyeen”. You gave your reasons for interpreting it one way … and challenged me to respond. I pointed out flaws in your reasoning … but you failed to do acknowledge this.
Now, flaws in your reasoning, would not have necessarily dictated how “khattam” should be interpreted. All it meant was that … the reason you are giving me … is not valid. You failed to appreciate this simple point and turned a blind eye towards inconsistencies in your approach.
I also proposed, on basis of Quran, why “khattam” should be interpreted as “ultimate”. You failed to respond to my arguments.
I further quoted some well-respected scholars from Islamic history … who supported Ahmadi interpretation of “khattam”. Here, your counter-argument was that … these scholars are smaller in number than those who think otherwise … and therefore must be wrong.
Such absurdity … as displayed by … you made me realize futility of discussing other issues with you.
I can easily respond to your comments against Mirza Sahib and Ahmadi beliefs … since they are based on selective and out-of-context accounts of events. But before we do that … let’s first finish our earlier debate … where I highlighted flaws in your interpretation of khattam … which you failed to acknowledge.
#154 Posted by arjun_m on November 6, 2002 8:44:17 am
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#153 Posted by AAmir on November 6, 2002 8:44:17 am
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#152 Posted by arjun_m on November 6, 2002 8:44:17 am
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#151 Posted by Urstruly on November 5, 2002 9:58:01 pm
Sattar
Just as I predicted in #108 that you wont answer it; your reply # 146 doesn`t qualify as an answer by any stretch of imagination.
#150 Posted by sattar2 on November 5, 2002 7:41:45 pm
Aamir (#118):
As a Muslim, I believe that original teachings of all revealed religions … Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Daoism, Hinduism, Zorastrianism (sp?), Islam, and many more … were revealed by the same God Almighty. All religions implore the followers to worship God Almighty … and have love and compassion for all of God’s creations. This is consistent with the message of Quran, where Gracious and Merciful Allah Almighty tells us that messengers have been sent to all nations through the course of human history.
As I understand it … man-made distortions have crept in all religions over time … message of peace is lost to human tendencies for violence and power abuse, men are given god-like status, super-natural traits get ascribed to mere mortals, and more.
Islam, as I understand it, is a religion for all mankind, unlike other religions, which were transient in their teachings, and addressed time-specific needs of specific nations. In its true sense, Islam validates the prophethood of prophets sent to various nations (these include Krishna, Ram, Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Zaratushtra, Confucius) … and gives a unified message of oneness of God and brotherhood of all mankind. It teaches us to live by principles of justice and peace in our communities, to treat everyone with extreme love and affection, and to exist in harmony with our Creator, with each other, and within ourselves.
Quran tells believers not to force Islam on others. Believers are commanded only to convey the message of Islam to others … and leave religion as a matter between each person and God Almighty. It forbids coercion in such matters and allows freedom of one’s conscience.
I pick on mainstream Islam for its absurdities … to highlight the contradictions in mullahs’ understanding of Islam … which is often used as a tool to justify violence against others. Specifically, the tiny Ahmadi-Muslim community has been the target of mullah’s vile persecution for over half a century, and as an Ahmadi, I find it disturbing … and at times poke fun at mullah’s understanding of Islam. In essence … this humor is directed against religious persecution of anyone … not just Ahmadi-Muslims.
#148 Posted by einsteinwallah on November 5, 2002 4:34:36 pm
Another post and another quote. This time from chowk archives. This was written by Zeejah, the piece was titled ``Murder Most Foul``. This article previously appeared in newsline.
``... The rest of the sordid story is well known, how Hina Jillani sat in on the meeting, barely escaping with her life; how Mohtarama entered on the arm of her part-time chauffeur; how Saima prepared to run when she saw him; how he shot her in the head; how her mother and uncle (who waited downstairs) took a hostage while escaping; how the uncle congratulated the father on the success of the `mission`. So much for `Pathan` values. Pathans are known to honour their word over their lives. ...``
O, light of ijtihad, please show me the way from this dark horror of Islam.
-einsteinwallah
``... The rest of the sordid story is well known, how Hina Jillani sat in on the meeting, barely escaping with her life; how Mohtarama entered on the arm of her part-time chauffeur; how Saima prepared to run when she saw him; how he shot her in the head; how her mother and uncle (who waited downstairs) took a hostage while escaping; how the uncle congratulated the father on the success of the `mission`. So much for `Pathan` values. Pathans are known to honour their word over their lives. ...``
O, light of ijtihad, please show me the way from this dark horror of Islam.
-einsteinwallah
#147 Posted by einsteinwallah on November 5, 2002 3:34:41 pm
A quote from following URL: http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15-1-2000/Art5.htm (AT THE THRESHHOLD OF A NEW MILLENNIUM–II, By Zafarul-Islam Khan):
``Much of our internal problems may be traced to the self-imposed decadence and the self-created ideological vacuum. After the Mongol invasion in the thirteenth century, our scholars closed the doors of ijtihad, i.e., independent reasoning and inference about new issues and situations which keep arising because human society by its very nature is in constant flux and in an ever-changing ferment. Only animals are unable to plan any change in their lives. New situations and challenges crop up all the time in every human society. And only those societies succeed and grow which accept new challenges and take the trouble of solving their problems in time.
Islam had foreseen this problem and to tackle it had created the institution of ijtihad, reasoning or inference by scholars, as the fourth source of Islamic rules after the Qur’an, Sunnah and ijmac, that is consensus of the scholars. The institution of ijtihad had emerged during the very life-time of the Prophet. Perhaps I do not have to remind you that at the time of despatching Mu’adh, may Allah be pleased with him, as governor of the Yemen in 9H/630-1CE, the Prophet asked him how he was going to give his rulings. Mu’adh replied that I will rely on the Book of Allah, then on the Sunnah of His Prophet. And if I do not find anything in these sources I will use my reasoning. The Prophet was very pleased with this reply.``
In other words Book of Allah and Sunnah of His Prophet constitute those parts of a constitution of Islam which cannot be amended. Will such castrated ijtihad do the job?
A question: where is the word jihad mentioned in these sources? If jihad is not mentioned in these two sources then rest of the world can hope to live in next millenium without fear of being wiped out by muslims.
If rest of the world has doubt about Islamists giving up the terroristic version of the concept of jihad, then it is the muslim world who will live in fear.
Also somebody mentioned apostasy. Are the prescriptions against apostatsy also in these two sources?
-einsteinwallah
``Much of our internal problems may be traced to the self-imposed decadence and the self-created ideological vacuum. After the Mongol invasion in the thirteenth century, our scholars closed the doors of ijtihad, i.e., independent reasoning and inference about new issues and situations which keep arising because human society by its very nature is in constant flux and in an ever-changing ferment. Only animals are unable to plan any change in their lives. New situations and challenges crop up all the time in every human society. And only those societies succeed and grow which accept new challenges and take the trouble of solving their problems in time.
Islam had foreseen this problem and to tackle it had created the institution of ijtihad, reasoning or inference by scholars, as the fourth source of Islamic rules after the Qur’an, Sunnah and ijmac, that is consensus of the scholars. The institution of ijtihad had emerged during the very life-time of the Prophet. Perhaps I do not have to remind you that at the time of despatching Mu’adh, may Allah be pleased with him, as governor of the Yemen in 9H/630-1CE, the Prophet asked him how he was going to give his rulings. Mu’adh replied that I will rely on the Book of Allah, then on the Sunnah of His Prophet. And if I do not find anything in these sources I will use my reasoning. The Prophet was very pleased with this reply.``
In other words Book of Allah and Sunnah of His Prophet constitute those parts of a constitution of Islam which cannot be amended. Will such castrated ijtihad do the job?
A question: where is the word jihad mentioned in these sources? If jihad is not mentioned in these two sources then rest of the world can hope to live in next millenium without fear of being wiped out by muslims.
If rest of the world has doubt about Islamists giving up the terroristic version of the concept of jihad, then it is the muslim world who will live in fear.
Also somebody mentioned apostasy. Are the prescriptions against apostatsy also in these two sources?
-einsteinwallah
#146 Posted by sattar2 on November 5, 2002 3:34:40 pm
Urstruly Sahib (#108, 119):
You are demanding a reply from me the same day. I do have other responsibilities … besides responding to your posts, Sahib.
By the same token … you should also have explained issues that I raised many months ago … that you continue to be silent on. These include …
- Jesus raising the dead [this idea makes no sense at all]
- Moses given the miracle of magic, since magic was practiced by people in ancient times [same as above]
- Your approval of early Christians being fed to the lions [religious persecution … your disapproval would have been appropriate]
- Your tacit approval of verdict of scholars in attempting to crucify Jesus [same as above]
- “Dishonest” and “un-Islamic” works of the ”fat-butt, lethargic mullahs” [your ullema in your own words … what can I say?]
- Killing apostates [sheer barbarism … disapproved of in Quran]
- Waging jihad against polytheists … [same as above]
- Furthermore, on the blasphemy board … where you supported killing for blasphemy… you invited me to respond … but became silent and stopped responding when I countered your arguments.
Clearly you are unable to intelligently explain your Islam … but are too embarrassed to admit this … and here you want my immediate response!
Moving on …
In my post #116 to Ashok, I explained the dilemma of mainstream Islam … and inherent contradictions embedded in it. If that interests you … you should find my explanation adequate for now … and should have something intelligent to say.
I’ll let you ponder over this post for now. Feel free to share any reasonable thoughts you may have …
#145 Posted by faisaluno on November 5, 2002 2:48:36 pm
Still convinced that racial profiling does not effect brown non-muslims? Even Booker Prize nominee Rohinton Mistry is not safe.
ARTS ABROAD
For Canada`s Top Novelists, Being Born Abroad Helps
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
New York Times
November 4, 2002
``_ _ _ _Mr. Mistry`s publicist at Knopf, Jill Morrison, said he decided last week to cancel a six-city American tour that was supposed to have begun today in Salt Lake City because of harassment he suffered because of his color on a previous tour at the end of September and in early October. She said the incidents occurred at La Guardia Airport and in Washington and Minneapolis_ _ _``
ARTS ABROAD
For Canada`s Top Novelists, Being Born Abroad Helps
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
New York Times
November 4, 2002
``_ _ _ _Mr. Mistry`s publicist at Knopf, Jill Morrison, said he decided last week to cancel a six-city American tour that was supposed to have begun today in Salt Lake City because of harassment he suffered because of his color on a previous tour at the end of September and in early October. She said the incidents occurred at La Guardia Airport and in Washington and Minneapolis_ _ _``
#144 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 2:15:39 pm
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#143 Posted by Karakoram on November 5, 2002 1:15:56 pm
I don`t want to jump into this mess..... but the attached news item was really interesting. Are cows and calfs on the endangered speicies list in India ? or are cows really believed to be sacred animals ? What happened to the brahmins who killed the dalits that killed the cow ? Is it against the law to kill a cow in India ? what if you own the cow ? What if you want to kill a chicken that you own ? What if you kill a couple of dalits that you don`t own ?
holy cow ! India really is messed up.
Three dalits thrashed for allegedly skinning calf
Three dalits were thrashed and handed over to the police for allegedly skinning a calf before elders in Panipat district, Haryana, found them not guilty on Tuesday.
The three, residents of Chamra village in Panipat, were caught on Sunday.
A panchayat ``unanimously`` resolved that the dalits were not guilty, as the calf was already dead, Haryana assembly Speaker Satbir Kadian said.
Following the ruling, the three were released, the sources said.
The incident came just 20 days after the killing of the five dalits in Dulina village of Jhajjar district for allegedly skinning a cow.
holy cow ! India really is messed up.
Three dalits thrashed for allegedly skinning calf
Three dalits were thrashed and handed over to the police for allegedly skinning a calf before elders in Panipat district, Haryana, found them not guilty on Tuesday.
The three, residents of Chamra village in Panipat, were caught on Sunday.
A panchayat ``unanimously`` resolved that the dalits were not guilty, as the calf was already dead, Haryana assembly Speaker Satbir Kadian said.
Following the ruling, the three were released, the sources said.
The incident came just 20 days after the killing of the five dalits in Dulina village of Jhajjar district for allegedly skinning a cow.
#142 Posted by faisaluno on November 5, 2002 11:40:46 am
dear paki haters:
uncle sam pays up $7 b to clean up the mess created by paki army in the first place. and i should be the one complaining? personally, i am laughing all the way to the bank because i had shiltload of cash sunk in karachi stock exchange which in case you have not noticed has doubled since sep 11.
what have you guys got from uncle sam besides escaping the formality of not being finger printed upon arrival in the u.s.? seems to me that uncle sam continues to put a higher value on an american life in comparison to an indian life. otherwise why else would it support the butcher of kargill? and when will you guys gather the courage to confront uncle sam on this. oh sorry, i forget, you are the ones who stood idly by for 800 years while all your temples in north india were being destroyed by two-bit invaders who could not make it big in west asia.
uncle sam pays up $7 b to clean up the mess created by paki army in the first place. and i should be the one complaining? personally, i am laughing all the way to the bank because i had shiltload of cash sunk in karachi stock exchange which in case you have not noticed has doubled since sep 11.
what have you guys got from uncle sam besides escaping the formality of not being finger printed upon arrival in the u.s.? seems to me that uncle sam continues to put a higher value on an american life in comparison to an indian life. otherwise why else would it support the butcher of kargill? and when will you guys gather the courage to confront uncle sam on this. oh sorry, i forget, you are the ones who stood idly by for 800 years while all your temples in north india were being destroyed by two-bit invaders who could not make it big in west asia.
#141 Posted by rsaxena on November 5, 2002 10:45:19 am
re: faisluno
{ if this is what you do to your own kind, shudder to think what you must do to the people of kashmir.}
...probably a lot less than the sentencing to gang rape that your cousins in pakistan carried out...
{ if this is what you do to your own kind, shudder to think what you must do to the people of kashmir.}
...probably a lot less than the sentencing to gang rape that your cousins in pakistan carried out...
#140 Posted by rsaxena on November 5, 2002 10:45:19 am
re: faisaluno
{i guess uncle sam does owe a debt of gratitute to you guys. after all he is in bed with a govt }
...yes, he is in bed with a govt whose people he arrests in their own country, and whose citizens he has locked up like animals in a bay somewhere near cuba...great being in bed with you...wonder if your wife would agree...
{i guess uncle sam does owe a debt of gratitute to you guys. after all he is in bed with a govt }
...yes, he is in bed with a govt whose people he arrests in their own country, and whose citizens he has locked up like animals in a bay somewhere near cuba...great being in bed with you...wonder if your wife would agree...
#139 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 10:45:19 am
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#138 Posted by khamkhwa. on November 5, 2002 10:10:07 am
Versha Bhogle in Rediff on 4th Nov.2002
``About 100 Dalit families live in the village of Thinniyam in Tiruchi district of Tamil Nadu, with the Kallars comprising the predominant caste. Seven years ago, Karuppiah, a Dalit, paid a bribe of Rs 2,000 to S Rajalakshmi, the (Kallar) panchayat chief, to get a house allotted to his sister. However, since Rajalakshmi`s term was about to end and the allotment hadn`t yet been made, Karuppiah demanded the money back. Rajalakshmi denied having taken it. So, Karuppiah began talking about the bribe and the breach of trust to the villagers. Next, Rajalakshmi`s husband, Subramanian, and her son thrashed Karuppiah with slippers. So, Karuppiah lodged a complaint with the police, with two of his Dalit friends, Murugesan and Ramasami, standing witness. The next day, Subramanian and 9 of his kinsmen assaulted Murugesan and Ramasami with hot iron rods - and forced them to feed each other human excreta...``
``About 100 Dalit families live in the village of Thinniyam in Tiruchi district of Tamil Nadu, with the Kallars comprising the predominant caste. Seven years ago, Karuppiah, a Dalit, paid a bribe of Rs 2,000 to S Rajalakshmi, the (Kallar) panchayat chief, to get a house allotted to his sister. However, since Rajalakshmi`s term was about to end and the allotment hadn`t yet been made, Karuppiah demanded the money back. Rajalakshmi denied having taken it. So, Karuppiah began talking about the bribe and the breach of trust to the villagers. Next, Rajalakshmi`s husband, Subramanian, and her son thrashed Karuppiah with slippers. So, Karuppiah lodged a complaint with the police, with two of his Dalit friends, Murugesan and Ramasami, standing witness. The next day, Subramanian and 9 of his kinsmen assaulted Murugesan and Ramasami with hot iron rods - and forced them to feed each other human excreta...``
#137 Posted by faisaluno on November 5, 2002 9:40:50 am
dear arjum_m
i guess uncle sam does owe a debt of gratitute to you guys. after all he is in bed with a govt that is sending killers across the border to kill innocent people before diwali.
i guess uncle sam does owe a debt of gratitute to you guys. after all he is in bed with a govt that is sending killers across the border to kill innocent people before diwali.
#136 Posted by faisaluno on November 5, 2002 9:15:06 am
dear rsaxena
bet dalit women being raped by bjp hoodlums think that bidwai`s concerns are irrelevant as well. if this is what you do to your own kind, shudder to think what you must do to the people of kashmir.
bet dalit women being raped by bjp hoodlums think that bidwai`s concerns are irrelevant as well. if this is what you do to your own kind, shudder to think what you must do to the people of kashmir.
#135 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 9:15:06 am
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#134 Posted by pmishra2 on November 5, 2002 8:40:55 am
faisaluno #117
Young people are refused visa for many, many reasons. This has happened to some of my hungarian friends, my sister etc. The main issue is that they might stay in the US for economic reasons etc. While arbitrary and harsh it is nothing new. The regular flow of business and students from India etc. is just fine, recently the Chennai Embassy indicated that they provided a record number of visas for 2002.
Quite different from the treatment of Pakistanis. No wonder the few Pakistanis I know have recently become ``South Asians``! Good move...
Young people are refused visa for many, many reasons. This has happened to some of my hungarian friends, my sister etc. The main issue is that they might stay in the US for economic reasons etc. While arbitrary and harsh it is nothing new. The regular flow of business and students from India etc. is just fine, recently the Chennai Embassy indicated that they provided a record number of visas for 2002.
Quite different from the treatment of Pakistanis. No wonder the few Pakistanis I know have recently become ``South Asians``! Good move...
#133 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 8:19:26 am
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#132 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 8:19:26 am
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#131 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 8:19:26 am
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#130 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 8:19:26 am
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#129 Posted by rsaxena on November 5, 2002 8:19:25 am
...people, let`s not torture faisaluno anymore..he`s broken into hysteria googling till his beard hurts, desperately looking for irrelevant drivel to cut-n-paste...:)
#128 Posted by faisaluno on November 5, 2002 7:18:12 am
dear harimau and other cheer leaders for narendra modi:
unlike you, we dont follow the advice of every psychotic nutcase who knows how to write. as the following article by praful bidwai indicates, you guys actually elect those people.
for pakis fretting about the prospect mma rule, realise that l.k advani has killed ten times the number of people in comparison to azim tariq. to gain an understanding of vileness of the whole bjp movement, please take the time to watch anand parthwadans documentary on the rise of l.k. advani. the name of the film is ``in the name of god``. if the film does not convince you to put aside your differences to work for a better pakistan, i dont know what will. review of the film is posted below
Subhuman lives
Oppression stalks dalits in India, says Praful Bidwai
October 2002, Jaipur, [IPS] - A 50-kilometer journey from the capital of Rajasthan, brings visitors to Chakwara village - and back into the Middle Ages. Here, after all, is a society based on terrible persistent inequalities, social servitude and economic bondage. At the centre of the serfdom, and legitimizing it, is the systemic, systematic and religiously sanctified discrimination against the Dalits, India`s former `untouchables`.
Oppression of the 160 to 180 million Dalits, who are viewed as being too low to even be part of the caste system, is one of the most repelling, but enduring, realities of the Indian countryside. Equally oppressive is the violence perpetrated against them, especially their women. To be a Dalit today means having to live in a subhuman, degraded, insecure fashion: Every hour, two Dalits are assaulted. Every day, three Dalit women are raped, and two killed. In most parts of India, Dalits continue to be barred from entering Hindu temples or other holy places - although doing so is against the law. Their women are banned from wearing shoes in the presence of caste Hindus. Dalit children often suffer a form of apartheid at school by being made to sit at the back of the classroom.
Yet, the Dalits are resisting. In parts of the country, they are organizing politically to demand their rights. A Dalit woman rules the largest state, Uttar Pradesh. However, breaking the barriers laid down by the Hindu caste system is an uphill struggle, especially when the government does little to uphold the law of the land that prohibits discrimination on account of descent.
The Dalits of Chakwara village discovered this when they lay their claim to a common or public resource: the village pond, bathing in which is an important ritual. The pond and the steps leading to it have been built and maintained over the years with state funds and contributions raised by the entire village, including the Dalits. But Dalits have been excluded from using the common `ghats` for decades. Caste-based ``tradition`` ensures that Dalits are treated worse than the buffaloes, cows and pigs that have virtually unrestrained access to the pond. The only exception is the women who have also, irrespective of caste, always been barred from the pond.
However, in December, Babulal and Radheshyam, who belong to the Bairwa group of Dalits, decided to defy the hallowed ``tradition`` and take a dip in the pond. Outraged, the caste Hindus subjected the Bairwas to vile abuse, threats of a ``bloodbath``, a nightly siege of their homes and a crippling social boycott. The Dalits could no longer buy tea or vegetables or hire farm implements. The local doctor would not treat them. The grocery shop ostracized them. The local mechanic would not repair their bicycles. Their men were stalked, their women abused.
The local administration and police should have protected and supported the Dalits. Instead, they generally sided with the upper castes. In January, officials allied with the caste Hindus in breach of the law bullied the Dalits into signing a ``compromise`` agreement, which effectively erased their right to the pond. The agreement produced discontent and resentment that has been simmering ever since. Last month, the discontent culminated in another effort by the Bairwas to assert their rights, through a rally in collaboration with other human rights organizations.
The caste Hindus decided to confront the Dalits ``physically`` and gathered a mob of 10 to 15,000 men armed with sticks. The police tried to stop the men from attacking the rally, halted some distance away. Angered, the caste Hindus attacked the police who responded with teargas and bullets, and in the ensuing brawl more than 50 people were injured, including 44 policemen.
The incident has created waves beyond Rajasthan - one of India`s most socially backward states. Rajasthan has a dismal record of anti-Dalit offenses, with an annual average of 5,024 crimes registered in the last three years. On average, there are 46 killings, 134 rapes and 93 cases of grievous injury every year. One of the worst killings was the massacre of 17 Dalits, at Kumher village, in 1992.
However, the state administration and police have learnt few lessons. Rather than take preventive measures or prosecute those guilty of caste discrimination, they side with the upper castes. This is partly because the bulk of India`s bureaucracy is caste Hindu. Although the Dalits are entitled to 15 percent of all government jobs, they rarely get the better-paid ones in senior categories.
Of equal importance is the role that ``tradition`` plays in the Hindu religion. Many enlightened Hindus reject the idea of caste. Modern education persuaded large numbers of them to support a reform movement for cleansing Indian society of evils like caste-based apartheid, widow burning and dowry. But despite early gains, the reform momentum ran out of steam by the 1950s and conservative currents have taken hold since then. In the past 10 to 15 years, these have struck their deepest roots in the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), and critics allege that the party ideologically represents hierarchical Hinduism and casteism in its worst aspects.
Legally, the notion of untouchables and discrimination against the Dalits are prohibited under the Indian Constitution under a 1955 civil rights act and the 1989 Prevention of Atrocities, or POA, act. The act was written explicitly to outlaw physical and verbal abuse against Dalits, but hasn`t had the desired effect.
The Dalit struggle for emancipation from social and economic servitude faces heavy odds, but it has also acquired an international dimension since the World Conference Against Racism last year in South Africa. Casteism has come in for strong criticism from the United Nations. In August, while discussing descent-based discrimination, the U.N. Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination strongly condemned caste. The panel`s recommendations for corrective measures are thoughtful and exhaustive. They confront India with a simple choice: systematically fight casteism or face opprobrium and possible sanctions from the world community.
Praful Bidwai
October 2002
Praful Bidwai is a correspondent with Inter Press Service, a global news resource faciliating south-south and south-north dialogue on important economic, social, environmental, and other issues. IPS is distributed by Global Information Network
Review
In the Name Of God
A Film by Anand Patwardhan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since gaining independence in 1947, India has been a secular state. But now, as religious fundamentalism grips much of India`s population, the greatest danger to the nation`s extremely strained social fabric may come not from Sikh or Muslim separatists, but from Hindu fundamentalists who are appealing to the 83% Hindu majority to redefine India as a Hindu nation.
IN THE NAME OF GOD focuses on the campaign waged by the militant Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) to destroy a 16th century mosque in Ayodhya said to have been built by Babar, the first Mughal Emperor of India. The VHP claim the mosque was built at the birthsite of the Hindu god Ram after Babar razed an existing Ram temple. They are determined to build a new temple to Ram on the same site. This controversial issue, which successive governments have refused to resolve, has led to religious riots which have cost thousands their lives, culminating in the mosque`s destruction by the Hindus in December of 1992. The resulting religious violence immediately spread throughout India and Pakistan leaving more than 5,000 dead, and causing thousands of Indian Muslims to flee their homes.
Filmed prior to the mosque`s demolition, IN THE NAME OF GOD examines the motivations which would ultimately lead to the drastic actions of the Hindu militants, as well as the efforts of secular Indians - many of whom are Hindus - to combat the religious intolerance and hatred that has seized India in the name of God.
``IN THE NAME OF GOD is an honest documentary that leaves no doubt about the catastrophe that is about to engulf the country... Made with very little editorial interference, what we see is what is there. And what is there is frightening.`` - Ruma Dutta, India Today
``The screen is electric with religious fervor, masses of people swarming through the streets, gathering in rallies, or violently rioting... This is investigative cinema verité documentary at its dynamic best.`` - Kay Armatage, Toronto Film Festival
``A deceptively informal look at one lethal instance of India`s move towards fundamentalist politics. For those who need to translate westward, it provides a possible clairvoyant example of the force of religious-political belief.`` - Cameron Bailey
``[An] acutely informative, restrainedly courageous, and grimly prophetic film.``- Hank Heifetz, author, ORIGIN OF THE YOUNG GOD
``Hard-hitting, provocative, revealing look at secularism in India under siege from militants on both sides. Patwardhan explores this tragedy in this lucid, courageous film that allows supporters of both sides to have their say... A documentary well worth seeking out.`` - Variety
** 1994 Association for Asian Studies Conference
** Best Ecumenical Film Award Winner, 1993 Nyon Film Festival
** Critics Prize Winner, 1993 Fribourg Film Festival
** 1993 Human Rights Watch Film Festival
** 1993 Margaret Mead Film Festival
** Best Investigative Documentary, 1993 National Awards (India)
** 1993 Berlin Film Festival
** Best Documentary, 1992 Filmfare
unlike you, we dont follow the advice of every psychotic nutcase who knows how to write. as the following article by praful bidwai indicates, you guys actually elect those people.
for pakis fretting about the prospect mma rule, realise that l.k advani has killed ten times the number of people in comparison to azim tariq. to gain an understanding of vileness of the whole bjp movement, please take the time to watch anand parthwadans documentary on the rise of l.k. advani. the name of the film is ``in the name of god``. if the film does not convince you to put aside your differences to work for a better pakistan, i dont know what will. review of the film is posted below
Subhuman lives
Oppression stalks dalits in India, says Praful Bidwai
October 2002, Jaipur, [IPS] - A 50-kilometer journey from the capital of Rajasthan, brings visitors to Chakwara village - and back into the Middle Ages. Here, after all, is a society based on terrible persistent inequalities, social servitude and economic bondage. At the centre of the serfdom, and legitimizing it, is the systemic, systematic and religiously sanctified discrimination against the Dalits, India`s former `untouchables`.
Oppression of the 160 to 180 million Dalits, who are viewed as being too low to even be part of the caste system, is one of the most repelling, but enduring, realities of the Indian countryside. Equally oppressive is the violence perpetrated against them, especially their women. To be a Dalit today means having to live in a subhuman, degraded, insecure fashion: Every hour, two Dalits are assaulted. Every day, three Dalit women are raped, and two killed. In most parts of India, Dalits continue to be barred from entering Hindu temples or other holy places - although doing so is against the law. Their women are banned from wearing shoes in the presence of caste Hindus. Dalit children often suffer a form of apartheid at school by being made to sit at the back of the classroom.
Yet, the Dalits are resisting. In parts of the country, they are organizing politically to demand their rights. A Dalit woman rules the largest state, Uttar Pradesh. However, breaking the barriers laid down by the Hindu caste system is an uphill struggle, especially when the government does little to uphold the law of the land that prohibits discrimination on account of descent.
The Dalits of Chakwara village discovered this when they lay their claim to a common or public resource: the village pond, bathing in which is an important ritual. The pond and the steps leading to it have been built and maintained over the years with state funds and contributions raised by the entire village, including the Dalits. But Dalits have been excluded from using the common `ghats` for decades. Caste-based ``tradition`` ensures that Dalits are treated worse than the buffaloes, cows and pigs that have virtually unrestrained access to the pond. The only exception is the women who have also, irrespective of caste, always been barred from the pond.
However, in December, Babulal and Radheshyam, who belong to the Bairwa group of Dalits, decided to defy the hallowed ``tradition`` and take a dip in the pond. Outraged, the caste Hindus subjected the Bairwas to vile abuse, threats of a ``bloodbath``, a nightly siege of their homes and a crippling social boycott. The Dalits could no longer buy tea or vegetables or hire farm implements. The local doctor would not treat them. The grocery shop ostracized them. The local mechanic would not repair their bicycles. Their men were stalked, their women abused.
The local administration and police should have protected and supported the Dalits. Instead, they generally sided with the upper castes. In January, officials allied with the caste Hindus in breach of the law bullied the Dalits into signing a ``compromise`` agreement, which effectively erased their right to the pond. The agreement produced discontent and resentment that has been simmering ever since. Last month, the discontent culminated in another effort by the Bairwas to assert their rights, through a rally in collaboration with other human rights organizations.
The caste Hindus decided to confront the Dalits ``physically`` and gathered a mob of 10 to 15,000 men armed with sticks. The police tried to stop the men from attacking the rally, halted some distance away. Angered, the caste Hindus attacked the police who responded with teargas and bullets, and in the ensuing brawl more than 50 people were injured, including 44 policemen.
The incident has created waves beyond Rajasthan - one of India`s most socially backward states. Rajasthan has a dismal record of anti-Dalit offenses, with an annual average of 5,024 crimes registered in the last three years. On average, there are 46 killings, 134 rapes and 93 cases of grievous injury every year. One of the worst killings was the massacre of 17 Dalits, at Kumher village, in 1992.
However, the state administration and police have learnt few lessons. Rather than take preventive measures or prosecute those guilty of caste discrimination, they side with the upper castes. This is partly because the bulk of India`s bureaucracy is caste Hindu. Although the Dalits are entitled to 15 percent of all government jobs, they rarely get the better-paid ones in senior categories.
Of equal importance is the role that ``tradition`` plays in the Hindu religion. Many enlightened Hindus reject the idea of caste. Modern education persuaded large numbers of them to support a reform movement for cleansing Indian society of evils like caste-based apartheid, widow burning and dowry. But despite early gains, the reform momentum ran out of steam by the 1950s and conservative currents have taken hold since then. In the past 10 to 15 years, these have struck their deepest roots in the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), and critics allege that the party ideologically represents hierarchical Hinduism and casteism in its worst aspects.
Legally, the notion of untouchables and discrimination against the Dalits are prohibited under the Indian Constitution under a 1955 civil rights act and the 1989 Prevention of Atrocities, or POA, act. The act was written explicitly to outlaw physical and verbal abuse against Dalits, but hasn`t had the desired effect.
The Dalit struggle for emancipation from social and economic servitude faces heavy odds, but it has also acquired an international dimension since the World Conference Against Racism last year in South Africa. Casteism has come in for strong criticism from the United Nations. In August, while discussing descent-based discrimination, the U.N. Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination strongly condemned caste. The panel`s recommendations for corrective measures are thoughtful and exhaustive. They confront India with a simple choice: systematically fight casteism or face opprobrium and possible sanctions from the world community.
Praful Bidwai
October 2002
Praful Bidwai is a correspondent with Inter Press Service, a global news resource faciliating south-south and south-north dialogue on important economic, social, environmental, and other issues. IPS is distributed by Global Information Network
Review
In the Name Of God
A Film by Anand Patwardhan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since gaining independence in 1947, India has been a secular state. But now, as religious fundamentalism grips much of India`s population, the greatest danger to the nation`s extremely strained social fabric may come not from Sikh or Muslim separatists, but from Hindu fundamentalists who are appealing to the 83% Hindu majority to redefine India as a Hindu nation.
IN THE NAME OF GOD focuses on the campaign waged by the militant Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) to destroy a 16th century mosque in Ayodhya said to have been built by Babar, the first Mughal Emperor of India. The VHP claim the mosque was built at the birthsite of the Hindu god Ram after Babar razed an existing Ram temple. They are determined to build a new temple to Ram on the same site. This controversial issue, which successive governments have refused to resolve, has led to religious riots which have cost thousands their lives, culminating in the mosque`s destruction by the Hindus in December of 1992. The resulting religious violence immediately spread throughout India and Pakistan leaving more than 5,000 dead, and causing thousands of Indian Muslims to flee their homes.
Filmed prior to the mosque`s demolition, IN THE NAME OF GOD examines the motivations which would ultimately lead to the drastic actions of the Hindu militants, as well as the efforts of secular Indians - many of whom are Hindus - to combat the religious intolerance and hatred that has seized India in the name of God.
``IN THE NAME OF GOD is an honest documentary that leaves no doubt about the catastrophe that is about to engulf the country... Made with very little editorial interference, what we see is what is there. And what is there is frightening.`` - Ruma Dutta, India Today
``The screen is electric with religious fervor, masses of people swarming through the streets, gathering in rallies, or violently rioting... This is investigative cinema verité documentary at its dynamic best.`` - Kay Armatage, Toronto Film Festival
``A deceptively informal look at one lethal instance of India`s move towards fundamentalist politics. For those who need to translate westward, it provides a possible clairvoyant example of the force of religious-political belief.`` - Cameron Bailey
``[An] acutely informative, restrainedly courageous, and grimly prophetic film.``- Hank Heifetz, author, ORIGIN OF THE YOUNG GOD
``Hard-hitting, provocative, revealing look at secularism in India under siege from militants on both sides. Patwardhan explores this tragedy in this lucid, courageous film that allows supporters of both sides to have their say... A documentary well worth seeking out.`` - Variety
** 1994 Association for Asian Studies Conference
** Best Ecumenical Film Award Winner, 1993 Nyon Film Festival
** Critics Prize Winner, 1993 Fribourg Film Festival
** 1993 Human Rights Watch Film Festival
** 1993 Margaret Mead Film Festival
** Best Investigative Documentary, 1993 National Awards (India)
** 1993 Berlin Film Festival
** Best Documentary, 1992 Filmfare
#127 Posted by faisaluno on November 5, 2002 7:18:12 am
dear believers in the goodness and purity of american society:
i bet the dead sikh taxi driver and the dead hindu dead gas station attendant were grateful for not looking like muslims before a bullet was pumped through their foreheads.
bet also that those two research assistants were grateful that india was a partner and not a condom. i on the other hand, an average citizen of condom country unlike those exceptional research assistants, have been able to travel to pakistan and back, four times since Sep 11.
interesting to note that 50 years after independence, some of the smartest people in india have to leave the motherland to survive. interesting to also note that americans are not even criticizing mush for sending people who were who were planning to kill innocent shoppers before diwali.
i bet the dead sikh taxi driver and the dead hindu dead gas station attendant were grateful for not looking like muslims before a bullet was pumped through their foreheads.
bet also that those two research assistants were grateful that india was a partner and not a condom. i on the other hand, an average citizen of condom country unlike those exceptional research assistants, have been able to travel to pakistan and back, four times since Sep 11.
interesting to note that 50 years after independence, some of the smartest people in india have to leave the motherland to survive. interesting to also note that americans are not even criticizing mush for sending people who were who were planning to kill innocent shoppers before diwali.
#126 Posted by arjun_m on November 5, 2002 6:24:55 am
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#125 Posted by rsaxena on November 5, 2002 5:37:16 am
re: faisaluno
{read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times. }
a) it`s good to know that some brilliant fundamental research is being done in india - much better than preparing kids for jehad, isn`t it?
b) those visa denials probably had nothing to do with terrorism, but more to do with scaling back of visas for young people who are likely to stay back in the US for economic reasons...previously, many scientists were denied visas because of the nuclear tests...again, very different from terrorism
c) indian citizens entering the US are not being fingerprinted on suspicion of being terrorists like saudis, sudanese, iraqis, pakistanis, and egyptians are
d) i thought pakistanis looked soooo different from indians...hehe...so why are you now trying to find solace in ``brown man`` unity?
....dude, you`re a joke...
{read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times. }
a) it`s good to know that some brilliant fundamental research is being done in india - much better than preparing kids for jehad, isn`t it?
b) those visa denials probably had nothing to do with terrorism, but more to do with scaling back of visas for young people who are likely to stay back in the US for economic reasons...previously, many scientists were denied visas because of the nuclear tests...again, very different from terrorism
c) indian citizens entering the US are not being fingerprinted on suspicion of being terrorists like saudis, sudanese, iraqis, pakistanis, and egyptians are
d) i thought pakistanis looked soooo different from indians...hehe...so why are you now trying to find solace in ``brown man`` unity?
....dude, you`re a joke...
#124 Posted by adnan_672 on November 5, 2002 3:43:58 am
sattar#92
``Scholarly evaluation … by a mullah who also tells us to believe in … what else … but a prophet residing above the clouds … for two thousand years … who will one day descend to earth on the shoulders of two angels … ``
Once again Mr Sattar you have NO point at all. I will not teach you how to put forward a reasonable argument, but this is definitely not the way.
Now as far as Qadiyani Masala is concerned I would gladly answer any criticism you have on any of the points therein, but what you wrote is NOT a criticism on anything in that book.
You took off from the last board without answering any of my querries, which I repost (so no muslim may be misled by the ahmadiyyah beliefs)
1. Why did the sahaba RA fight against each and every calimant to Prophrthood?
The muslim explination: There was NO question of trying to determine whether this person was a Prophet because they knew as told by Rasool Allah SAW that there would be no Prophets after him.
we await the qadiyani response
2. Why have ulema for 1400 yrs consistently interpreted (and an obvious interpretation it is) the verse on Finality in one way and not in the fantastic way Mr Ghulam Ahmed did?
The muslim explination: Because it follows from the context, it follows from arabic lexicography, it follows from saheeh hadith. it follows from the acts of Sahaba
we await the qadiyani response
3. You find Nozool e Issa strange, yet you are prepared to believe in the rebirth of Hazrat Issa AS as Mirza Sahib, who took his own sweet time in discovering that he indeed was Hazrat Isaa AS, time spent as a non gazetted officer in Her Majesty`s service may I add
The qadiyani response is awaited
4. What do you say to Mirza Sahibs unfulfilled prophesies about Maulana Sanaullah, about an heir, about Mohammadi Begum? I could go on
The qadiyani response is awaited
Many more of such very valid objections have been raised by Malana Maudoodi in Qadiyani Masala, take the time out to read it, i have taken time out to read the Ahmadiyyah literature (part of it at least) if you want to debate the issue decency dictates you read muslim literature and not comment on something you have no idea about.
Furthermore muslim scholars from Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz to Allama Iqbal to Maudoodi to Ulema of Deoband, Barelvi, Ahle Hadith Isna Ahari Shia schools have been unanimous in declaring Ahmadiyyah non muslims.
Likewise the good mirza and his khulufa have declared all muslims to be kafirs rt Mr Sattar????
I would not have bothered to reply to your childish post but the thought that a muslim might become more knowledgeable about this issue led me to post this detailed reply.
I await your response and hope it would be more educated than your previous post
May Allahs blessings be on the belivers
Adnan
``Scholarly evaluation … by a mullah who also tells us to believe in … what else … but a prophet residing above the clouds … for two thousand years … who will one day descend to earth on the shoulders of two angels … ``
Once again Mr Sattar you have NO point at all. I will not teach you how to put forward a reasonable argument, but this is definitely not the way.
Now as far as Qadiyani Masala is concerned I would gladly answer any criticism you have on any of the points therein, but what you wrote is NOT a criticism on anything in that book.
You took off from the last board without answering any of my querries, which I repost (so no muslim may be misled by the ahmadiyyah beliefs)
1. Why did the sahaba RA fight against each and every calimant to Prophrthood?
The muslim explination: There was NO question of trying to determine whether this person was a Prophet because they knew as told by Rasool Allah SAW that there would be no Prophets after him.
we await the qadiyani response
2. Why have ulema for 1400 yrs consistently interpreted (and an obvious interpretation it is) the verse on Finality in one way and not in the fantastic way Mr Ghulam Ahmed did?
The muslim explination: Because it follows from the context, it follows from arabic lexicography, it follows from saheeh hadith. it follows from the acts of Sahaba
we await the qadiyani response
3. You find Nozool e Issa strange, yet you are prepared to believe in the rebirth of Hazrat Issa AS as Mirza Sahib, who took his own sweet time in discovering that he indeed was Hazrat Isaa AS, time spent as a non gazetted officer in Her Majesty`s service may I add
The qadiyani response is awaited
4. What do you say to Mirza Sahibs unfulfilled prophesies about Maulana Sanaullah, about an heir, about Mohammadi Begum? I could go on
The qadiyani response is awaited
Many more of such very valid objections have been raised by Malana Maudoodi in Qadiyani Masala, take the time out to read it, i have taken time out to read the Ahmadiyyah literature (part of it at least) if you want to debate the issue decency dictates you read muslim literature and not comment on something you have no idea about.
Furthermore muslim scholars from Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz to Allama Iqbal to Maudoodi to Ulema of Deoband, Barelvi, Ahle Hadith Isna Ahari Shia schools have been unanimous in declaring Ahmadiyyah non muslims.
Likewise the good mirza and his khulufa have declared all muslims to be kafirs rt Mr Sattar????
I would not have bothered to reply to your childish post but the thought that a muslim might become more knowledgeable about this issue led me to post this detailed reply.
I await your response and hope it would be more educated than your previous post
May Allahs blessings be on the belivers
Adnan
#123 Posted by harimau on November 5, 2002 3:43:58 am
Ref faisaluno`s ecstasy at being a Muslim.
Hey Abdul, here is something for you:
Open Letter to All New Converts to Islam
By Al Mansur
Assalaammualaikum
Praise be to Allah.
Now that you have believed in the True Religion, it is time for you to have a deeper understanding of Islam. It is my most sincere wish that you make your Muslim cleric, friend or spouse who helped you ‘revert to Islam’ proud and pleasantly surprised by your knowledge in Islam and by how fast you can come to having the correct views of a true believer. Remember, the only correct perspective in this world, is a Muslim’s.
The first step of achieving this (if you have not already done so) is to stop asking them irritating questions such as what is Islam’s stand on 9/11, killings of Christians, Hindus etc. in Egypt, Sudan, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, Nigeria, southern Philippines, Kashmir etc. thereby forcing him to repeat for the umpteenth time that “Islam means Peace” and that “These Killers are not Real Muslims”.
Remember that you are a Muslim now. Instead of causing him to waste his time lying to you when he has a lot of other better things to do, such as lying to another potential convert, you should be helping him attend to and guide the infinite number of potential converts. Remember … you are no longer a customer but an employee now. Thus, the advertisements and sales presentations are no longer meant for you [Anyway all your answers are found in the Quran, so read it yourself]
I would encourage you to have faith in yourself and never underestimate your potential just because you are a new convert. Tariq ibn Ziyad and Khalid ibn Al-Walid who led Muslim excursions into other people’s countries to conquer, pillage, rape and did other great things for Islam were new converts when they started off in their careers. I regret however, that prior to converting, they were part of the armies who resisted Islam. But anyhow, they and their infidel compatriots became Muslims after some “prompting” and “persuasion”. All’s well that end’s well.
Let me share with you some other baby steps as a New Muslim to make your Muslim proselyter proud:
1) Propagate Islam
You have found the truth and it is Allah’s will that others should know the truth. Allah in his infinite wisdom has provided the most ingenious method of converting unbelievers. You can start of with just a sword (so long as it is sharp enough to separate body parts, it will do). This method is FAST, HIGHLY EFFECTIVE, COST EFFICIENT and not to mention COMPELLING. For more details, please see the Quran and the Hadiths.
How much time, effort and money have Ahmad Deedat and Jeremiah McAuliffe spent just to win a handful of converts? Using the method in the Quran, Muhammad (peace be upon him… coz’ if you’re non-Muslim, it’s rest in peace) and his Companions had Islam in Spain within less than a century. Praise be to Allah.
2) You are at War against Unbelievers
Don’t’ forget that it’s okay that these infidels die because they only THINK that their religion is true whereas you KNOW that yours is true.
[For more information see Shaykh Sa’eed ibn Wahf al-Qahtaani’s The Levels of Jihaad - Its merits and the reason for gaining victory over enemies © 1997 The Invitation to Islam, UK at Islaam.com]
3) Kill the Apostates
For this is the will of Allah. After all, wouldn’t you expect your “brothers and sisters in Islam” to do the same for you should you change your mind about Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and you renouncing Islam, is just bad for business. No offence.
Anyway, as Muslims always say “Islam is the most …. if not the only logical religion”. Any village idiot would know that. If you do not have the common sense to see this, you truly deserve to be shot.
4) Champion the cause of Muslims and Islam in the country that you live
If you’re from the UK, support Yusuf Islam a.k.a Cat Stevens campaign for public funding of Muslim schools in Britain. This only seems fair. Although Britain is officially a Christian country it has a growing Muslim minority whereas Saudi Arabia which is officially a Muslim country, does not have a Christian minority. (Saudi Arabia has already exterminated and expelled their Christians and Jews centuries ago)
One should NOT ONLY discourage public funding of Christian schools in say Pakistan, but should have Christian schools abolish altogether. This is because these schools make ready targets of non-Muslim children for PEACE-LOVING Muslims.
5) Champion the Cause of Muslims Worldwide
For example, be supportive of the Palestinian cause (as oppose to just showing sympathy for Palestinians like many Westerners). Death to Israel !!! A million martyrs shall march on Jerusalem !!! After all, Muhammad (peace be upon him) has declared war on the Jews and killed as well as raped them many centuries before the formation of the State of Israel.
The Kurds, like the Palestinians are stateless, predominantly Sunni Muslims, have stayed in their land for centuries, have their political aspirations suppressed, have thousands of their innocent civilians killed by chemical weapons (oops, I’m sorry this is applicable to the Kurds only). But who the hell cares so long as it is done by brother Muslims, right?
6) If you’re A Woman, please be supportive of your Muslim husband
If he was to subdue your unbelieving neighbours/friends/family members and thereafter proceed to have sexual intercourse with the women (that may include your sisters, sister-in-laws and best friends), this does not mean that he is unfaithful or that he does not love you (and his other wives, as the case may be). Don’t’ forget to tell him to ejaculate into them pursuant to Muhammad’s advice.
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah`s messenger we said, ``Oh Allah`s messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?`` The prophet said, ``Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.``
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 9, #506:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, ``It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection``. Qaza`a said, ``I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, ``No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.````
God’s laws are higher than man’s.
[Note : If you are a Woman Convert, don’t be discouraged just because the Special Incentive Package for martyrs (i.e. 72 virgins in Paradise with a lifetime warranty of renewable virginity) does not benefit you. If it’s any consolation, remember Islam respects and liberates women. What has your previous religion done for you?]
Remember Islam First, Humanity Second.
Hey Abdul, here is something for you:
Open Letter to All New Converts to Islam
By Al Mansur
Assalaammualaikum
Praise be to Allah.
Now that you have believed in the True Religion, it is time for you to have a deeper understanding of Islam. It is my most sincere wish that you make your Muslim cleric, friend or spouse who helped you ‘revert to Islam’ proud and pleasantly surprised by your knowledge in Islam and by how fast you can come to having the correct views of a true believer. Remember, the only correct perspective in this world, is a Muslim’s.
The first step of achieving this (if you have not already done so) is to stop asking them irritating questions such as what is Islam’s stand on 9/11, killings of Christians, Hindus etc. in Egypt, Sudan, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, Nigeria, southern Philippines, Kashmir etc. thereby forcing him to repeat for the umpteenth time that “Islam means Peace” and that “These Killers are not Real Muslims”.
Remember that you are a Muslim now. Instead of causing him to waste his time lying to you when he has a lot of other better things to do, such as lying to another potential convert, you should be helping him attend to and guide the infinite number of potential converts. Remember … you are no longer a customer but an employee now. Thus, the advertisements and sales presentations are no longer meant for you [Anyway all your answers are found in the Quran, so read it yourself]
I would encourage you to have faith in yourself and never underestimate your potential just because you are a new convert. Tariq ibn Ziyad and Khalid ibn Al-Walid who led Muslim excursions into other people’s countries to conquer, pillage, rape and did other great things for Islam were new converts when they started off in their careers. I regret however, that prior to converting, they were part of the armies who resisted Islam. But anyhow, they and their infidel compatriots became Muslims after some “prompting” and “persuasion”. All’s well that end’s well.
Let me share with you some other baby steps as a New Muslim to make your Muslim proselyter proud:
1) Propagate Islam
You have found the truth and it is Allah’s will that others should know the truth. Allah in his infinite wisdom has provided the most ingenious method of converting unbelievers. You can start of with just a sword (so long as it is sharp enough to separate body parts, it will do). This method is FAST, HIGHLY EFFECTIVE, COST EFFICIENT and not to mention COMPELLING. For more details, please see the Quran and the Hadiths.
How much time, effort and money have Ahmad Deedat and Jeremiah McAuliffe spent just to win a handful of converts? Using the method in the Quran, Muhammad (peace be upon him… coz’ if you’re non-Muslim, it’s rest in peace) and his Companions had Islam in Spain within less than a century. Praise be to Allah.
2) You are at War against Unbelievers
Don’t’ forget that it’s okay that these infidels die because they only THINK that their religion is true whereas you KNOW that yours is true.
[For more information see Shaykh Sa’eed ibn Wahf al-Qahtaani’s The Levels of Jihaad - Its merits and the reason for gaining victory over enemies © 1997 The Invitation to Islam, UK at Islaam.com]
3) Kill the Apostates
For this is the will of Allah. After all, wouldn’t you expect your “brothers and sisters in Islam” to do the same for you should you change your mind about Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and you renouncing Islam, is just bad for business. No offence.
Anyway, as Muslims always say “Islam is the most …. if not the only logical religion”. Any village idiot would know that. If you do not have the common sense to see this, you truly deserve to be shot.
4) Champion the cause of Muslims and Islam in the country that you live
If you’re from the UK, support Yusuf Islam a.k.a Cat Stevens campaign for public funding of Muslim schools in Britain. This only seems fair. Although Britain is officially a Christian country it has a growing Muslim minority whereas Saudi Arabia which is officially a Muslim country, does not have a Christian minority. (Saudi Arabia has already exterminated and expelled their Christians and Jews centuries ago)
One should NOT ONLY discourage public funding of Christian schools in say Pakistan, but should have Christian schools abolish altogether. This is because these schools make ready targets of non-Muslim children for PEACE-LOVING Muslims.
5) Champion the Cause of Muslims Worldwide
For example, be supportive of the Palestinian cause (as oppose to just showing sympathy for Palestinians like many Westerners). Death to Israel !!! A million martyrs shall march on Jerusalem !!! After all, Muhammad (peace be upon him) has declared war on the Jews and killed as well as raped them many centuries before the formation of the State of Israel.
The Kurds, like the Palestinians are stateless, predominantly Sunni Muslims, have stayed in their land for centuries, have their political aspirations suppressed, have thousands of their innocent civilians killed by chemical weapons (oops, I’m sorry this is applicable to the Kurds only). But who the hell cares so long as it is done by brother Muslims, right?
6) If you’re A Woman, please be supportive of your Muslim husband
If he was to subdue your unbelieving neighbours/friends/family members and thereafter proceed to have sexual intercourse with the women (that may include your sisters, sister-in-laws and best friends), this does not mean that he is unfaithful or that he does not love you (and his other wives, as the case may be). Don’t’ forget to tell him to ejaculate into them pursuant to Muhammad’s advice.
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 3, #432:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah`s messenger we said, ``Oh Allah`s messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?`` The prophet said, ``Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.``
FROM SAHIH BUKHARI - VOLUME 9, #506:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, ``It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection``. Qaza`a said, ``I heard Abu Said saying that the prophet said, ``No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it.````
God’s laws are higher than man’s.
[Note : If you are a Woman Convert, don’t be discouraged just because the Special Incentive Package for martyrs (i.e. 72 virgins in Paradise with a lifetime warranty of renewable virginity) does not benefit you. If it’s any consolation, remember Islam respects and liberates women. What has your previous religion done for you?]
Remember Islam First, Humanity Second.
#122 Posted by harimau on November 4, 2002 10:26:10 pm
Ref arjun_m #106
[Unless India becomes a flawless utopia, there will always be Pakistanis who use whatever flaw they can find to justify what they are doing.}
Don`t be too harsh on the Pakistanis.
If India becomes a Muslim-majority country, then we will be allowed to do pretty much what we want, including taking it out on Shias, Ahmadiyyas, Ismailis, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Jews, and especially, Hindus.
[Unless India becomes a flawless utopia, there will always be Pakistanis who use whatever flaw they can find to justify what they are doing.}
Don`t be too harsh on the Pakistanis.
If India becomes a Muslim-majority country, then we will be allowed to do pretty much what we want, including taking it out on Shias, Ahmadiyyas, Ismailis, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Jews, and especially, Hindus.
#120 Posted by semipreciousme on November 4, 2002 10:26:09 pm
harimau:
``It is time for someone like Advani to threaten massive retaliation and prove it by launching one concentrated strike against some Pak city with conventionally armed Prithvi rockets. A couple of hundred of those buzz bombs hitting Islamabad with conventional 2000-lb iron bombs when the next Indian soldier is killed with a promise that thousands more are on their launching pads ought to bring Mushy and his cohorts sobering thoughts about whether the 72 houris are really worth it. ``
...wonderful...so everytime a militant crosses the loc and kills, hundreds should be bomed in retaliation in some sort of gruesome game of one-up manship...time for liberia, sierra leone, congo, rawanda et al to start bombing the hell outta each other...and we only have to take a look at the middle east to see how well such payback works...
``Bin Laden is talking about suppression of Muslims in Chechnya or Palestine, which are not his homelands. I am talking about my country, India``
...as far as i remember, bin laden also whimper about us troops `taking over` the eversopure saudi soil...
``Well, if the Pakistanis can dish it out to the Afghans, they should be willing to take it themselves, don`t you think? At least, in this case I would not then accuse them of having one rule for Muslims and another for kaffirs.``
...so, in effect, 9/11 was justified, right?...i mean since the americans can `dish` it out, they should be able to take it...
``It is time for someone like Advani to threaten massive retaliation and prove it by launching one concentrated strike against some Pak city with conventionally armed Prithvi rockets. A couple of hundred of those buzz bombs hitting Islamabad with conventional 2000-lb iron bombs when the next Indian soldier is killed with a promise that thousands more are on their launching pads ought to bring Mushy and his cohorts sobering thoughts about whether the 72 houris are really worth it. ``
...wonderful...so everytime a militant crosses the loc and kills, hundreds should be bomed in retaliation in some sort of gruesome game of one-up manship...time for liberia, sierra leone, congo, rawanda et al to start bombing the hell outta each other...and we only have to take a look at the middle east to see how well such payback works...
``Bin Laden is talking about suppression of Muslims in Chechnya or Palestine, which are not his homelands. I am talking about my country, India``
...as far as i remember, bin laden also whimper about us troops `taking over` the eversopure saudi soil...
``Well, if the Pakistanis can dish it out to the Afghans, they should be willing to take it themselves, don`t you think? At least, in this case I would not then accuse them of having one rule for Muslims and another for kaffirs.``
...so, in effect, 9/11 was justified, right?...i mean since the americans can `dish` it out, they should be able to take it...
#119 Posted by Urstruly on November 4, 2002 7:50:09 pm
Sattar
You did not reply # 108. That is what you do when confronted and then whine. And I think you give too much credit to yourself of being sarcastic; I dont think you are capable of doing that.
#118 Posted by AAmir on November 4, 2002 7:50:08 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
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#117 Posted by faisaluno on November 4, 2002 6:25:09 pm
dear arjun_m:
read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times.
A Beautiful Mind From India
Is Putting the Internet on Alert
Wall Street Journal
Nov 4, 2002
Will Manindra Agrawal bring about the end of the Internet as we know it? The question is not as ridiculous as it was just two months ago.
Prof. Agrawal is a 36-year old theoretical computer scientist at the Indian Institute of Technology in Kanpur, India. In August, he solved a problem that had eluded mathematicians for millennia: developing a method to determine with complete certainty if a number is prime.
Prime numbers are those divisible only by themselves and 1. While small primes like 5 or 17 are easy to spot, for very large numbers, those hundreds of digits long, there never had been a formula of ``primality testing`` that didn`t have a slight chance of error.
Besides being a show-stopping bit of mathematics, the work was big news for the Internet. Very large prime numbers are the bedrock of Internet encryption, the sort your browser uses when you are shopping online.
That encryption system takes two big, and secret, prime numbers and multiplies them. For a bad guy to decrypt your message, he`d need to take the product of that multiplication and figure out the two prime numbers used to generate it. It`s called the ``factoring problem,`` and fortunately it`s something no one on Earth knows how to do quickly. A speedy method of factoring would make existing Internet security useless, not a pleasant thought in this Internet age.
Prof. Agrawal`s work involved only testing whether a number is prime, not the factoring problem. Still, there are enough connections and similarities between the two that mathematicians and computer scientists from all over the East Coast flew in to hear Prof. Agrawal on a whirlwind tour last week through the likes of M.I.T., Harvard and Princeton.
At Princeton, Prof. Agrawal`s lecture was the sort of deep math that only the most beautiful minds could understand. In a subsequent, and more lay-friendly, interview he said he started his work three years ago. He was dealing with a different problem, called identity testing, when he noticed the solution hinted at a potential fresh assault on prime-number testing.
It was a long three years. While no slouch in math, Prof. Agrawal said he sometimes had to use Google to find information on the more recondite aspects of number theory. His Eureka! moment came in July. As he was driving his daughter to school on his motor scooter, a particularly complicated mathematical set suddenly fell into place.
The computer scientists who heard Prof. Agrawal speak said, with considerable pride, that he was obviously one of them, because of the way he proceeded purposely -- ``algorithmically`` is the word they used -- toward his goal. (As computer scientists tell it, mathematicians tend to be too showy and discursive about things.)
Prof. Agrawal is the first to admit that his work, for all its elegant math, has no immediate practical application. He says the current tests for prime numbers, even with their slight chance of error, are good enough for most people, as well as extremely fast.
Still, will he now move on to the factoring challenge? Yes, in due time.
The best current method of factoring, he explains, is the Number Field Sieve. ``Best`` is a relative term, since all the computers in the world would still need untold trillions of years to use the system to factor just one big number.
Prof. Agrawal writes the Number Field Sieve equation on a piece of paper, looks at it and winces. ``Factoring is a natural problem. And natural problems should have a natural complexity to them. But this,`` he says, pointing to the equation, ``this is not natural complexity. This looks very strange. There must be something more natural than this out there.``
What he doesn`t yet know, however, is whether a more ``natural`` approach to factoring also would be appreciably faster than current methods. And that, of course, is the $64 billion question.
Most mathematicians say they don`t lose any sleep about waking up and finding the factoring problem solved. It`s just too hard, they say. (This difficulty was the very reason the method was chosen for Internet security in the first place.)
But others, like Princeton math professor Peter Sarnak who hosted Prof. Agrawal on campus last week, aren`t so convinced of the factoring problem`s eternal intractability. The fact that one venerable mathematics problem has just been solved, said Prof. Sarnak, might inspire new assaults on factoring, possibly even using some of Prof. Agrawal`s techniques.
Prof. Agrawal said factoring will have to wait a few years; he wants to warm up with something easier, like ``derandomizing polynomial time algorithms,`` for instance.
The professor worked on primality testing with two of his graduate students: Neeraj Kayal and Nitin Saxena. They had planned to join him on his U.S. victory tour. But the American Embassy in New Delhi, the times being what they are, refused them visas. The two young geniuses had to stay home.
read the following article before you start feeling too smug about pakis being profiled in the u.s. pay special attention to the last paragraph. realise that to americans, all brown people are alike. it does not make any difference to them even if the brown person has helped to solve one of the foremost mathmetical problems of all times.
A Beautiful Mind From India
Is Putting the Internet on Alert
Wall Street Journal
Nov 4, 2002
Will Manindra Agrawal bring about the end of the Internet as we know it? The question is not as ridiculous as it was just two months ago.
Prof. Agrawal is a 36-year old theoretical computer scientist at the Indian Institute of Technology in Kanpur, India. In August, he solved a problem that had eluded mathematicians for millennia: developing a method to determine with complete certainty if a number is prime.
Prime numbers are those divisible only by themselves and 1. While small primes like 5 or 17 are easy to spot, for very large numbers, those hundreds of digits long, there never had been a formula of ``primality testing`` that didn`t have a slight chance of error.
Besides being a show-stopping bit of mathematics, the work was big news for the Internet. Very large prime numbers are the bedrock of Internet encryption, the sort your browser uses when you are shopping online.
That encryption system takes two big, and secret, prime numbers and multiplies them. For a bad guy to decrypt your message, he`d need to take the product of that multiplication and figure out the two prime numbers used to generate it. It`s called the ``factoring problem,`` and fortunately it`s something no one on Earth knows how to do quickly. A speedy method of factoring would make existing Internet security useless, not a pleasant thought in this Internet age.
Prof. Agrawal`s work involved only testing whether a number is prime, not the factoring problem. Still, there are enough connections and similarities between the two that mathematicians and computer scientists from all over the East Coast flew in to hear Prof. Agrawal on a whirlwind tour last week through the likes of M.I.T., Harvard and Princeton.
At Princeton, Prof. Agrawal`s lecture was the sort of deep math that only the most beautiful minds could understand. In a subsequent, and more lay-friendly, interview he said he started his work three years ago. He was dealing with a different problem, called identity testing, when he noticed the solution hinted at a potential fresh assault on prime-number testing.
It was a long three years. While no slouch in math, Prof. Agrawal said he sometimes had to use Google to find information on the more recondite aspects of number theory. His Eureka! moment came in July. As he was driving his daughter to school on his motor scooter, a particularly complicated mathematical set suddenly fell into place.
The computer scientists who heard Prof. Agrawal speak said, with considerable pride, that he was obviously one of them, because of the way he proceeded purposely -- ``algorithmically`` is the word they used -- toward his goal. (As computer scientists tell it, mathematicians tend to be too showy and discursive about things.)
Prof. Agrawal is the first to admit that his work, for all its elegant math, has no immediate practical application. He says the current tests for prime numbers, even with their slight chance of error, are good enough for most people, as well as extremely fast.
Still, will he now move on to the factoring challenge? Yes, in due time.
The best current method of factoring, he explains, is the Number Field Sieve. ``Best`` is a relative term, since all the computers in the world would still need untold trillions of years to use the system to factor just one big number.
Prof. Agrawal writes the Number Field Sieve equation on a piece of paper, looks at it and winces. ``Factoring is a natural problem. And natural problems should have a natural complexity to them. But this,`` he says, pointing to the equation, ``this is not natural complexity. This looks very strange. There must be something more natural than this out there.``
What he doesn`t yet know, however, is whether a more ``natural`` approach to factoring also would be appreciably faster than current methods. And that, of course, is the $64 billion question.
Most mathematicians say they don`t lose any sleep about waking up and finding the factoring problem solved. It`s just too hard, they say. (This difficulty was the very reason the method was chosen for Internet security in the first place.)
But others, like Princeton math professor Peter Sarnak who hosted Prof. Agrawal on campus last week, aren`t so convinced of the factoring problem`s eternal intractability. The fact that one venerable mathematics problem has just been solved, said Prof. Sarnak, might inspire new assaults on factoring, possibly even using some of Prof. Agrawal`s techniques.
Prof. Agrawal said factoring will have to wait a few years; he wants to warm up with something easier, like ``derandomizing polynomial time algorithms,`` for instance.
The professor worked on primality testing with two of his graduate students: Neeraj Kayal and Nitin Saxena. They had planned to join him on his U.S. victory tour. But the American Embassy in New Delhi, the times being what they are, refused them visas. The two young geniuses had to stay home.
#116 Posted by sattar2 on November 4, 2002 3:29:20 pm
Re Ashok (#100):
Here are some thoughts on flying prophets, bloodthirsty men of god, and religion …
A person should be free to subscribe to any set of beliefs. It becomes an issue when … religion is used as a tool for exploitation and violence.
One of the dilemmas of mainstream Islam is that … on one hand … Islamic scholars point to scientific principles mentioned in Quran … to underscore its divine origins. On the other hand … these scholars tell us stories of flying prophets, prophets raising dead, practicing magic, parting oceans, and eating from the forbidden tree and getting tossed out of paradise. One can only wonder … how this blatant contradiction between science and religion can escape an inquiring mind.
It would not be a big issue if scriptural contradictions were limited to mullah’s physical understanding of the world. However, this contradiction has seeped into mullah’s social outlook as well. On one hand we are told that Islam aims to achieve justice and peace in our communities … and on the other hand mullahs tell us that blasphemers and apostates should be executed … that jihad must be waged against polytheists … that Ahmadis should be imprisoned for declaring Islam as their religion ... fornicators should be stoned to death, and so on. Here again, stark contradiction in mullah’s interpretation of Islam … seems to have completely escaped them. Pain and suffering inflicted on humanity in the name of God … needs not much of a discussion.
As a Muslim, albeit not a mainstream one, I believe that Islam, as well as Hinduism, and Christianity, and other revealed religions … have their origins in the same divine source … the God Almighty. Contradiction between science and Quran points to an inadequate understanding of Quran on one’s behalf. Executing apostates and blasphemers or waging jihad on polytheists or imprisoning Ahmadis … all on basis of Islam … also indicates incorrect understanding of Quran and Islam. Furthermore, flying prophets and prophets raising the dead etc. are inventions of human imagination and biases … that have found their way in understating of religion and interpretation of the scripture. Sadly, human biases and frailties are also the main culprits for violence perpetuated in the name of religion.
Anny (#103):
Your point is well taken … albeit with a caveat, owing to a history between Adnan Sahib, Ustruly Sahib, and myself. These gentleman, and their likes that I come across frequently, tell me that I am an enemy of Islam who is misrepresenting teachings of Quran, and whose community is justifiably persecuted. This is often followed by false accusations and propaganda about Mirza Sahib and the Ahmadi-Muslim community.
Most of the times I am able to handle such moments alright, and put them behind me. However, owing to my own weaknesses, sometimes I lose patience, and retort with sarcasm and edgy wit … aimed at highlighting flaws and absurdities in the other person’s approach.
Despite these reasons … your point remains valid … that I should not respond in kind, at all, when I come across folks with dissenting points of views. Your comments serve as a good reminder.
dost-mittar (#105):
Me … Punjabi … with a name like sattar?
In genetic terms … you are partially right. However, growing up in Karachi washed away the Punjabi cultural influence that I may have had from one side of the family. I guess I am more of a Karachiite … than anything else.
[PS: Was that supposed to be a joke on me … or on Punjabis?]
Here are some thoughts on flying prophets, bloodthirsty men of god, and religion …
A person should be free to subscribe to any set of beliefs. It becomes an issue when … religion is used as a tool for exploitation and violence.
One of the dilemmas of mainstream Islam is that … on one hand … Islamic scholars point to scientific principles mentioned in Quran … to underscore its divine origins. On the other hand … these scholars tell us stories of flying prophets, prophets raising dead, practicing magic, parting oceans, and eating from the forbidden tree and getting tossed out of paradise. One can only wonder … how this blatant contradiction between science and religion can escape an inquiring mind.
It would not be a big issue if scriptural contradictions were limited to mullah’s physical understanding of the world. However, this contradiction has seeped into mullah’s social outlook as well. On one hand we are told that Islam aims to achieve justice and peace in our communities … and on the other hand mullahs tell us that blasphemers and apostates should be executed … that jihad must be waged against polytheists … that Ahmadis should be imprisoned for declaring Islam as their religion ... fornicators should be stoned to death, and so on. Here again, stark contradiction in mullah’s interpretation of Islam … seems to have completely escaped them. Pain and suffering inflicted on humanity in the name of God … needs not much of a discussion.
As a Muslim, albeit not a mainstream one, I believe that Islam, as well as Hinduism, and Christianity, and other revealed religions … have their origins in the same divine source … the God Almighty. Contradiction between science and Quran points to an inadequate understanding of Quran on one’s behalf. Executing apostates and blasphemers or waging jihad on polytheists or imprisoning Ahmadis … all on basis of Islam … also indicates incorrect understanding of Quran and Islam. Furthermore, flying prophets and prophets raising the dead etc. are inventions of human imagination and biases … that have found their way in understating of religion and interpretation of the scripture. Sadly, human biases and frailties are also the main culprits for violence perpetuated in the name of religion.
Anny (#103):
Your point is well taken … albeit with a caveat, owing to a history between Adnan Sahib, Ustruly Sahib, and myself. These gentleman, and their likes that I come across frequently, tell me that I am an enemy of Islam who is misrepresenting teachings of Quran, and whose community is justifiably persecuted. This is often followed by false accusations and propaganda about Mirza Sahib and the Ahmadi-Muslim community.
Most of the times I am able to handle such moments alright, and put them behind me. However, owing to my own weaknesses, sometimes I lose patience, and retort with sarcasm and edgy wit … aimed at highlighting flaws and absurdities in the other person’s approach.
Despite these reasons … your point remains valid … that I should not respond in kind, at all, when I come across folks with dissenting points of views. Your comments serve as a good reminder.
dost-mittar (#105):
Me … Punjabi … with a name like sattar?
In genetic terms … you are partially right. However, growing up in Karachi washed away the Punjabi cultural influence that I may have had from one side of the family. I guess I am more of a Karachiite … than anything else.
[PS: Was that supposed to be a joke on me … or on Punjabis?]
#115 Posted by Studebaker on November 4, 2002 3:06:23 pm
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#114 Posted by khamkhwa. on November 4, 2002 3:00:33 pm
++
To expect Pakistan to reform only when India has attained utopia is stupidity. People in Pakistan who hate India will always find a reason to do so. The same applies to India too.
++
arjun ji,
why it is stupidity to ape india.what is your reason to hate pakistan.finally,
do you always bark or sometime you are in human mould also?
To expect Pakistan to reform only when India has attained utopia is stupidity. People in Pakistan who hate India will always find a reason to do so. The same applies to India too.
++
arjun ji,
why it is stupidity to ape india.what is your reason to hate pakistan.finally,
do you always bark or sometime you are in human mould also?
#113 Posted by Tipu on November 4, 2002 12:58:30 pm
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#112 Posted by Tipu on November 4, 2002 12:58:30 pm
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#111 Posted by arjun_m on November 4, 2002 11:18:23 am
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#110 Posted by arjun_m on November 4, 2002 11:18:23 am
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#109 Posted by tahmed32 on November 4, 2002 9:36:22 am
khamkhwa #107 Please dont confuse arjun with facts about India and by wishing him happy diwale and and wishing all the best to India. According to his doctors this causes severe cognitive dissonance, causing his head to start spinning like a top while the rest of the body is becomes motionless like a statue.
#108 Posted by khamkhwa. on November 4, 2002 9:06:01 am
#106
What do these ignorant pakis know...you are right about billions and trillions of export, more power to your already powerful financial state.
When you are done `lecturing` the pakis...please take a trip to
Bihar,Orissa,UP, Rajasthan,Assam,Meghalaya,Arunachal,and some more whose names I don`t even know(typical ignorant paki) and tell them about the economic achievements of India in the last decade,I am sure they will be pleased to know how lucky they have been.
Here is wishing you and India a great future on this Happy Diwali Day without any ifs and buts.
What do these ignorant pakis know...you are right about billions and trillions of export, more power to your already powerful financial state.
When you are done `lecturing` the pakis...please take a trip to
Bihar,Orissa,UP, Rajasthan,Assam,Meghalaya,Arunachal,and some more whose names I don`t even know(typical ignorant paki) and tell them about the economic achievements of India in the last decade,I am sure they will be pleased to know how lucky they have been.
Here is wishing you and India a great future on this Happy Diwali Day without any ifs and buts.
#107 Posted by Urstruly on November 4, 2002 9:06:01 am
Sattar # 92
ah you are hopping from board to board and spreading lies about me again? I have never ``rejected`` the concept of ``dead prophet waiting in heaven`` anywhere. Now here is your chance, you can get rid of me for good if you prove that. But something tells me you can`t and you wont. Now let us see how you reason with adnan`s post #64 if you are as reasonable as you claim to be. But something tells me that you can`t and you wont.
#105 Posted by arjun_m on November 4, 2002 8:10:14 am
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#103 Posted by ZafarA on November 4, 2002 6:42:48 am
``After all one shah banu caase cannot be more special than 130/2 million other women.``
That`s the point, Bapu. They should ALL be entitled to alimony in the case of divorce.
That`s the point, Bapu. They should ALL be entitled to alimony in the case of divorce.
#102 Posted by anNy on November 4, 2002 6:42:48 am
sattar2
is it me or are u getting cattier by the post?
points can be made without this overdose of sarcasm and such disastrous wit as you may percieve it...your past interactions spoke very well for you; right now you sound as much like a loser as your buddy truly..
do excuse if its not my place to be reprimanding your kind self
is it me or are u getting cattier by the post?
points can be made without this overdose of sarcasm and such disastrous wit as you may percieve it...your past interactions spoke very well for you; right now you sound as much like a loser as your buddy truly..
do excuse if its not my place to be reprimanding your kind self
#101 Posted by tahmed32 on November 4, 2002 6:42:47 am
shankar #94 you write to faisaluno: ``If any of you are offended by my metaphorical profanity, I apologise...but atleast reflect upon what I`m saying rather than how I`m saying it... ``
I repeat this last part of your post to help faisaluno take note and provide a response that is neither defensive, nor offensive, but thoughtful.
In particular I would be interested in faisaluno`s thoughts about your point concerning the pakistani generals` going on their knees like monica before the US. Perhaps we could have some light shed on the conquest of Pakistan in 1958, in 1978, in 1999 (?) by these martial people.
Heck, the photograph of our brave soldiers climbing over the gates of the elected prime minister`s house in 1999 in order to arrest him and thus clear the way for our ``monica`` napoleons to take power was so glorious that tears still come to my eyes when I see it, and my chest swells with pride as a pakistani. Perhaps we should make a statue based on that picture. Just like the Iwo Jima memorial.
I repeat this last part of your post to help faisaluno take note and provide a response that is neither defensive, nor offensive, but thoughtful.
In particular I would be interested in faisaluno`s thoughts about your point concerning the pakistani generals` going on their knees like monica before the US. Perhaps we could have some light shed on the conquest of Pakistan in 1958, in 1978, in 1999 (?) by these martial people.
Heck, the photograph of our brave soldiers climbing over the gates of the elected prime minister`s house in 1999 in order to arrest him and thus clear the way for our ``monica`` napoleons to take power was so glorious that tears still come to my eyes when I see it, and my chest swells with pride as a pakistani. Perhaps we should make a statue based on that picture. Just like the Iwo Jima memorial.
#100 Posted by Ashok on November 3, 2002 10:02:38 pm
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#99 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 3, 2002 10:02:28 pm
Pakistan`s Economic Figures: Third Plan (1960-65)
Pakistani government`s per-capita development expenditures (annual)
West Pakistan East Pakistan
Rs. 521.05 Rs. 390.35
Pakistani government`s per-capita revenue expenditures (annual)
West Pakistan East Pakistan
Rs. 240.00 Rs. 70.29
Pakistani government`s per-capita development expenditures (annual)
West Pakistan East Pakistan
Rs. 521.05 Rs. 390.35
Pakistani government`s per-capita revenue expenditures (annual)
West Pakistan East Pakistan
Rs. 240.00 Rs. 70.29
#97 Posted by Waheeduzz on November 3, 2002 1:11:32 pm
faisaluno #90
Start by reading correct history. East Pakistan had been subsidizing West Pakistan. Since we stopped, you are turning into a basket casse.
Start by reading correct history. East Pakistan had been subsidizing West Pakistan. Since we stopped, you are turning into a basket casse.
#96 Posted by alphaHussain on November 3, 2002 12:02:02 pm
ZafarA#95 Dost-mittar#80
Zakaria`s message is very sensible. Why did Indian Muslims riot recently because of some comments in America! There were deaths & property loss. There was no rioting and property loss in Pakistan and many other countries? This will be appalling to others. We should stop shooting ourselves in the foot.
Zakaria`s message is very sensible. Why did Indian Muslims riot recently because of some comments in America! There were deaths & property loss. There was no rioting and property loss in Pakistan and many other countries? This will be appalling to others. We should stop shooting ourselves in the foot.
#95 Posted by ZafarA on November 3, 2002 10:27:44 am
Reply Dost-mittar #80
Dost-mittarji - I found some of the historical analogies Zakaria drew hard to follow the logic of, but I think he is right on the money when he says, in so many words, that Indian Muslim leaders have acted in ways which promoted themselves, but at an enormous cost to the community, and that much of this took the form of agitating on irrelevant or unrealistic issues and being satisfied with tokenistic outcomes - because the process alienated many Hindus from ANYTHING Indian Muslims as a group said without benefitting the IM community at all.
Prime example: Indian Muslims rioting because the courts said that one poor old woman had to be given alimony by her well off divorced husband. The AIMPLB made sure that their importance and independence was maintained. Moderate Hindus were appalled at the community`s insisting on maintaining a law that was clearly punitive against women. What did the community gain? The right for divorced women to be utterly without any support. Was this a great deal or what!
No, Zakaria really spoke the truth on that one.
Dost-mittarji - I found some of the historical analogies Zakaria drew hard to follow the logic of, but I think he is right on the money when he says, in so many words, that Indian Muslim leaders have acted in ways which promoted themselves, but at an enormous cost to the community, and that much of this took the form of agitating on irrelevant or unrealistic issues and being satisfied with tokenistic outcomes - because the process alienated many Hindus from ANYTHING Indian Muslims as a group said without benefitting the IM community at all.
Prime example: Indian Muslims rioting because the courts said that one poor old woman had to be given alimony by her well off divorced husband. The AIMPLB made sure that their importance and independence was maintained. Moderate Hindus were appalled at the community`s insisting on maintaining a law that was clearly punitive against women. What did the community gain? The right for divorced women to be utterly without any support. Was this a great deal or what!
No, Zakaria really spoke the truth on that one.
#94 Posted by shankar on November 3, 2002 10:27:43 am
faisaluno,
Bangladesh has achieved more in 30+ yrs than Pakistan has, in the same time. Even the most anti-Indian Bangladeshi is not clamouring for ``reunification`` with Pakistan. Besides, if Pakistan is so generous that it has allowed migrant servants ( & callgirls) from Bangladesh; why the HECK is it so shameless that its turned its back on the millions of Biharis who fought & died with West Pakistanis to prevent the country from breaking up?
Pakistan`s economy is primarily founded on one phrase ....``its the halwah from Heaven, stupid!`` After the US sanctions, Indias economy hummed along merrily (even bettering the usual ``hindu growth rate``). At that time Pakistan`s economy almost COLLAPSED! Does that tell you something?!
Get off your silly, stupid pride about how much better off we were from India during such & such eras.
The only time Pakistani economy was doing well was...& forgive my blunt profanity (its all metaphorical) is when your glorious general dictators bend their knees & gave the US a ...a...``Monica``..OK!
Ayub`s ``golden era``..yeah..because he took sides against the Soviets & allowed US bases for weapons & AID.
Zia was in deep doodoo until the damn Soviets blundered & went into Afghanistan. After that good ol` Ronnie makes him the Champion fighter of godless communism. Zia GLADLY gets on his knees & gives him a Monica; in return Pakistan gets unlimited aid & F-16s..
Now Mushy (once an international pariah) gets on his knees & Bushy is moaning with joy. Wellll...Pak economy is rescued isnt it?!
O well, when the US isnt interested in a Monica...theres always Saudi Arabia..they have, like, an open invitation...``when you come to Islamabad, oh brothers...unzip your flies..we`ll be..er.. anxiously be waiting to pucker up---NOBODY tips as well as the Saudis!``
In the
Bangladesh has achieved more in 30+ yrs than Pakistan has, in the same time. Even the most anti-Indian Bangladeshi is not clamouring for ``reunification`` with Pakistan. Besides, if Pakistan is so generous that it has allowed migrant servants ( & callgirls) from Bangladesh; why the HECK is it so shameless that its turned its back on the millions of Biharis who fought & died with West Pakistanis to prevent the country from breaking up?
Pakistan`s economy is primarily founded on one phrase ....``its the halwah from Heaven, stupid!`` After the US sanctions, Indias economy hummed along merrily (even bettering the usual ``hindu growth rate``). At that time Pakistan`s economy almost COLLAPSED! Does that tell you something?!
Get off your silly, stupid pride about how much better off we were from India during such & such eras.
The only time Pakistani economy was doing well was...& forgive my blunt profanity (its all metaphorical) is when your glorious general dictators bend their knees & gave the US a ...a...``Monica``..OK!
Ayub`s ``golden era``..yeah..because he took sides against the Soviets & allowed US bases for weapons & AID.
Zia was in deep doodoo until the damn Soviets blundered & went into Afghanistan. After that good ol` Ronnie makes him the Champion fighter of godless communism. Zia GLADLY gets on his knees & gives him a Monica; in return Pakistan gets unlimited aid & F-16s..
Now Mushy (once an international pariah) gets on his knees & Bushy is moaning with joy. Wellll...Pak economy is rescued isnt it?!
O well, when the US isnt interested in a Monica...theres always Saudi Arabia..they have, like, an open invitation...``when you come to Islamabad, oh brothers...unzip your flies..we`ll be..er.. anxiously be waiting to pucker up---NOBODY tips as well as the Saudis!``
In the