Islamic Utopia?

re: stuka

{Just like the Polish guards at the Nazi concentration camps? They were ashamed to be victims so they joined the oppressor too. }


...ouch!...right on!...sad isn`t it, that this fellow`s ancestors were part of the people threatened and coerced, and here he is celebrating that like a dunce...

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#44 by faisaluno

[i for one am very grateful to my ancestors for embracing islam. at least i dont have to go to bed every night thinking about 700 years of shame. ]


In other words If you are getting raped then might as well spread the legs and enjoy it!!!!

Congrats!!!

Indian

#55 by dost-mittar

Will Pakistan show us humble Indians how minorities ought to be treated? I mean, everyone except Muslims being deemed second class citizens on account of it being a Islamic republic, a whole religious community declared persona non-grata, churches being bombed, Shias being used for target practice does not exactly an example make.

But that`s besides the point. You are yet to answer my question. How exactly does Pakistan`s ideological belligerence help Indian Muslims? A more erudite answer, please.

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Another article centering around religion. Why do people obssess with it so much?

I think if someone were to take a survey in Pakistan (I cannot remember the Herald survey results exactly), nobody in Pakistan would give a hoot about religion or secularism. Yet article after article keeps centering arount it. What a waste of intellectual bandwidth.

If Pakistan becomes a secular state, it is not going to be any better or worse than if it becomes a religious state, or vice-versa. Anyone who arrogantly declares, ``himself/herself`` as the, ``solution`` to Pakistan has missed the whole point, before the game has even started. This is exactly what the religious and secular brigade does. They are both victims of, ``me case.`` i.e, I know best, every Pakistani other than me, is an idiot.

I would like to ask the author what the, ``modernist`s`` view is on democracy? Did it ever strike any of them that modernists should support the will of the people, even if it conflicts with their, ``I am the best`` logic. Suppose everyone in Pakistan wants to elect a mullah as their Prime Minister. What do the self-proclaimed, ``modernists`` do at that time? If they kick the mullah out, or attempt to make a fool of him, how are they any different the religionists they so despise.

The problem in Pakistan, and in Turkey and in Algeria and in Egypt and in any country in which Islamic parties have shown an upsurge is not that, ``modernist`` forces have been defeated. The problem is that there were no, ``modernists`` to begin with. What the hell did the Shahs of Iran, the Abdul-Nassers, the Bhuttos, the Ata-turk wannabes etc. ever do for their countries, other than loot them? After all, other than Zia, Pakistan has been ruled by, ``secular`` forces for all its years. If being more secular than religious is the only problem in these countries, then these individuals should have turned each country into Singapore.

The reasons maulvis are coming into power is that the people have given the, ``modernisits`` chance after chance, and they have disappointed. Who else is left, other than the maulvis? The poor have the option of having no voice under the modernists, or having at least some voice under the maulvis. Even if the maulvis come with their own baggage of narrow-mindedness.

Maybe Pakistan`s wannabe-reformers should stop obsessing with secularism and, ``modernisms`` and start trying to figure out who can put food on people`s plates, who can clean the gutters and who can give poor folk jobs and a voice against the staus quo powers. The discarded modernists didn`t do it. If a new group of modernists can do it, more power to them (not because the secular, but becuase they are effective). If the maulvi brigade can do it, then more power to them, also.

I hope Pakistan, someday, reaches a state where religion and secularism are both kicked out of the national debate. Both these groups have done nothing but build their own careers and arguments on religion (or lack of it). Whomever can raise the living standard of the poorest Pakistani should run the mohallaha, village, city, province and country. It shouldn`t make a rat`s ass of a difference if he/she considers himself/herself the next bext thing to sliced bread, to Ghazali, or to Ata-turk.

The ultimate debate in Pakistan should be between, ``the people who can clean the gutters of Pakistan (literally and figuratively`` and the people who cannot - not between the modernists and non-modernists. After all, the maulvis consdier themselves as right and as modern as the, ``modernists.``

Some observations on this factually incorrect article.


``Little did they know that the farsighted Maudoodi was also rejoicing.
`Maulana Maudoodi came out in the favor of the resolution declaring proudly that ‘the country we had considered our enemy till yesterday, now we consider our home.’ ``

1. Please read ``Tehreek e Aazaade e Hind aur Musalmaan by Maudoodi``, what Maudoodi was opposing was a State created in the name of Islam by a set that was definitly secular in approach and was he right. look at the mess Pakistan is in now.

2.``After surviving the commuted death penalty for inciting sectarian violence against the Ahmadis,``

The death sentence was passed by a military tribunal NOT a court of law, and it was based on Maudoodis booklet ``Qadiani Masalaa`` which does not incite hatred but is a scholarly evaluation of the Ahmadi claims.


``What happened in Afghanistan under the Taliban is a scary picture of what might happen if the revivalists were ever to triumph convincingly over the modernists``

3. Sadly your lack of knowledge of the Afghan society makes you give sweeping statements like these. What happened in Afghanistan was more a result of their traditions mixed with a form of Islam rejected by Maudoodi and the Jamaat.


``The Islamic worldview especially on human rights, women’s rights, religious freedom, freedom of conscience and democracy, needs to be updated immediately``.

4. Would you kindly enlighten me with what YOU THINK is the Islamic worldview on these issues???

`` The path to revitalization of the Islamic order lies in the acceptance of modernity``.

5. Definition of moderanity??????

Now YLH how many book written by Maudoodi have you read? An honest answer please. Judging from your rather uneducated opinion i guess not one, the mature way to express your opposition to a person or his ideas is to first read his works. I strongly suggest you do that.
Further always define phrases or ``buzzwords`` you use in your writing else what you write is meaningless.

Sincerely
Adnan

Ref dost-mittar #55

[Loyalty of minorities has to be earned,...]

If by that you imply that minorities have a right to anti-national activities if thet are not mollycoddled, you are playing right into the hands of --- er, how do I say this? --- the BJP.

[If India treats her muslims with love and trust, even hydra will start singing vande matram!]

So long as the economic pie is small, there will always be those who claim discrimination because they didn`t get any pie. All I can say is: the average Muslim in India faces about as much discrimination as the average poor Joe Blow. So, the Muslims can either join the mainstream or stay in their ghettoes. It is the same choice that is offered to every single Indian citizen. People like Zafar make the right choice and are happy that they had the OPPORTUNITY to succeed. People like Studebaker take the opportunity and still badmouth India. And then there are the Pakistanis who say, like Jinnah did: hey, forget the exam part, just hand out the diplomas. Even their religion tells them they don`t get their 72 houris unless they do namaaz 5 times a day, so why can`t they accept the fact that they have to compete on earth to succeed?

Ref faisaluno #44

[the parade started 400 years before baber moved to india...]

And THAT parade stopped at Delhi.

[... so not only have hindus shown a proclivity for cowradice as you yourself acknowledge in your post...]

The only Indians who displayed cowardice were those who gave up their heritage because they valued their lives more than their honor. As you might learn from the census figures of India, 82% of us managed to retain our self-respect by not bowing down in the direction of Mecca when the choice was between embracing The True Faith and the Swift Sword of Death.

On the other hand, people like you have to constantly re-assure yourseves of your self-worth by thinking that one Pak soldier is worth 10 Hindu soldiers.

[... they have also shown their lack of inteligence for not being able to come up with a weapon that would have prevented them from being subjected to an additional 400 years of foreign domination.]

Your own idiots would then include Bahadur Shah II, Hyder Ali, Tipu Sultan, Siraj-ud-Dowla, the various rulers of Sindh who ran away when Napier came marching in, and a whole host of nawabs ruling Lucknow, Awadh, the Rohilkhand, etc.

[the agony of your ancestors would not have lasted that long if they had displayed the same courage and ditermination as that displayed by palestenians and kashmiri freedom fighters.]

Last I heard, the Israelis were using Palestinians for target practice and, according to you guys, the Kashmiri women are comfort women for the Indian Army.

[i for one am very grateful to my ancestors for embracing islam. at least i dont have to go to bed every night thinking about 700 years of shame.]

Look up the meaning of terms like the Stockholm Syndrome and cognitive dissonance.

#63 Romair
The reason the Muallanas got elected could be pointed out to the fact that the usually more complaining and whining middle class didnt bother to go out and vote. Now why these ppl didnt go out and vote could be that they getting more cynical and less contributing. If the cycle of election is been intrupted frequently one can get disinfranchised indeed. Let`s make every five years election part of Pakistan polity.

And dont underestimate the strength of Dumb fundos, they know one and only one thing, how to make one lives unlivable. They have powerful street presence and they can make others dumbs fundo united on one platform for that so called Islamic utopia. I wished all these fundos who yearning for utopia let them have it. Becuase in the end they will fail, when the masses will realizes that they too have empty promises. There will be a big clash within the muslim societies and there must be. It wont be easy ride, indeed it will be a bloody war. These fights have to be fought from within. Iran is an execellent example.

Ref wholly-precious-you #40

[… how have you been?…back in top gear, i see.. ]

Quite well, thank you. As for being in top gear, well, why not?

[…there is nothing wrong with an assertive hindu…but when that assertive hindu happens to be the deputy pm of a SECULAR state and whose not-so-secret affiliations with a firebrand hindu group alienate other minorities, then there IS a problem…]

You see, the real problem with Hindu Indians is that they WANT to be liked by everybody. The truth is, people appreciate raw power. Look at China: the US was so worried about China from the 1950s right through the 80s all because Mao was throwing his weight around. Look at even Pakistan: everybody thinks that Pakistan might behave irrationally and start a nuclear war and so India should handle Pakistan with kid gloves. I think it is time for Pakistan to think that India might be mad enough to start a nuclear war and start behaving cautiously. If they are the least bit worried about India`s rationality, do you think they would allow one madrassah graduate to get into Kashmir? Heck, no; the entire Pak Army would be frantically plugging every hole in the LOC and Musharraf would be sweating blood each time a single Indian soldier or Hindu civilian is killed in Kashmir. It is time for someone like Advani to threaten massive retaliation and prove it by launching one concentrated strike against some Pak city with conventionally armed Prithvi rockets. A couple of hundred of those buzz bombs hitting Islamabad with conventional 2000-lb iron bombs when the next Indian soldier is killed with a promise that thousands more are on their launching pads ought to bring Mushy and his cohorts sobering thoughts about whether the 72 houris are really worth it.

[…this argument sounds suspiciously like the whinings of bin laden and his ilk when they talk of american ‘oppression’ against the muslims… ]

Bin Laden is talking about suppression of Muslims in Chechnya or Palestine, which are not his homelands. I am talking about my country, India.

I give credit to the Sultans of Delhi in that they didn`t think of themselves as the rulers of Uzbekistan with a colony in India. They titled themselves as the rulers of Hindustan. Which is far different than what Jinnah did.

[“They deserve a Taliban-like government. That would be God`s justice for imposing and supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan. “

...tsk, tsk...so 9/11 was God’s justice against american citizens for their government’s biased support for israel in the middle east?....]

Well, if the Pakistanis can dish it out to the Afghans, they should be willing to take it themselves, don`t you think? At least, in this case I would not then accuse them of having one rule for Muslims and another for kaffirs.

Ref dost-mittar #40

[The point is that minorities in Pakistan, as elsewhere for that matter, primarily want to be able to pursue their lives peacefully and with dignity without bothering too much about the form of governance.]

So, the minorities in Pakistan should be willing to give up their political rights in return for some guarantee of safety? Well, the minorities have been deprived of at least some political rights by not being able to hold office as Prime Minister or President and exactly what safety have they received?

By the same token, why couldn`t Indian Muslims in pre-1947 India have declared that they are willing to give up some of their political rights in return for guarantees of safety?

[Muslims in India, for example, would have no problem with the BJP if events like Gujarat did not happen...]

I hate to have to say this again and again. It was not as if there was no provocation against the Hindus of Gujarat before Feb 28, 2002.

Aamir #62,

It is not whether Indian Muslims should be treated the same or different from Hindus in India. The question that I am asking is whether Pakistan`s continued belligerence against India on the basis of it`s Islamic ideology is hurting Indian Muslims. The illogical thing that I observe is that on the one hand Pakistanis claimed they got a country because Muslims couldn`t live with Hindus; on the other hand, they keep making Tsk Tsk noises about how Indian Muslims are being treated. Either you can live with Hindus or you cannot. If Pakistanis cared that much, then the honest thing that should have been done is to have have evacuated every last Muslim from India. If they couldn`t do that then they should have made peace with India the day they got Pakistan if they really cared about them. None of this happened. It seems to me that Pakistanis want to have the cake and eat it too.

That is why dost-mittar attacking the BJP and how they`re treating Muslims seems so specious to me.

Interesting article:

``My late night conversations with Asim became a regular feature. During one such conversation, I asked him what people in his neighbourhood and community thought about the elections and the Mutahidda Majlis-e-Amal’s landslide victory. He laughed and said, “Omar bhai, these things are concerns for you, driving in your comfortable car. Someone like me doesn’t care whether the PPP is in power, or Nawaz Sharif or the maulvis. I just care about getting my mother and me three meals a day and not getting beaten up by other beggars.” `` (http://www.thefridaytimes.com/)

AAmir


Good indicators assuming that all these studies have been done scientifically and not so as to boost theories.

Regarding Kerala ,it is indeed the simple arithmetic of population growth that catapulted Muslims to 30% or more of the population. The last district to go 100% literate in Kerala was the Muslim majority dist. of Malappuram. Average family sizes there are way above the average for Christian or Hindus of Kerala. So much so that much like the Bangladeshis Malabari Muslims are migrating and changing the demographics of many states. One only hopes sanity will prevail and we will not have any political exploitation of these migrations.

The problem with comparisons with Turkey and Indonesia is that these countries have long turned vastly Muslim with token non-Muslim presence and it is easier for social decisions in such cases than say India where half of the Muslim leadership exploits the nature of their constituents.

True change cannot happen unless the Muslim areas of UP, MP etc reform and that may take more than this generation to do , it will also need instituations such as the AMU to step up to the plate with some radical ideas.