Were We Too Hijacked by 9/11?

Re: Jay # 93

Hinduavta, as you said, might be local and peculiar to India and may not have the transational appeal of a jihad, but if ``all politics are local``, then the influence and message of Hinduavata directly affects Pakistan. In this sense, its importance cannot be minmized. Furthermore, as the dislike of Pakistan and the Muslims is akin to the cause celebre of Hinduavata, there is no consolation from that fact that its lacks the intensity of a jihad.

To argue otherwise, would be tantamount to creating a distinction between the two; a distinction, which seeks to justify violence and extermism based on a political reasoning. Hinduavta is an extermist philosophy since it advocates violence to attain its aim and like any political philosophy, which advocates violence it should not be tolerated.

Contary to what you have suggested, Hinduavta did ``fertilize`` a local movement in the birthplace of Gandhiji, which unleased a spasm of violence; a violence that had political motivations behind it. It did ``fertilize`` a movement, which led to the destruction of the Babri Masjid. These two examples, were all local and when taken in their sum, they do represent a national trend in India towards violence and extermism in politics.

I will agree with you that Pakistanis have supported jihad for one reason or another, but how does that seperate the distinction between adherents of Hinduavta and the jihadis, who both use its violence to attain political ends?

The point being discussed, and please correct me if I am wrong, is not to justify a politically rationalized dichotomy over the employment of violence for political ends, but to suggest that violence used for furthering political aims is simply wrong. Period.

Jay, the reality of the situation is that after 55 years of independence, Pakistan has not been able to articulate, what constitutes as its national ideology. That debate is still raging, in the true sense of the word, and hence, it is too early to predict that Pakistan cannot be a moderate nation. In the same token, because there was no historic precedent in India, it does not mean that India will always remain a tolerant nation. These a priori assumptions, which you are alluding to, can be misleading and prone to be proven wrong.

You and I exist in what the Germans refer to as ``augenblick`` - an historic moment - and thus, we cannot say with certainity what the final verdict will be. We can only pass judgements on our time and that too, within a very narrrow judgement biased by the limits of our own experience and constrainted by the time, we have managed to experience those events in. We cannot pass historic verdicts with our limitated experience, when history has no limits and will continue to evolve long after, we have shuffled off this mortal coil.

Yes, the governments of all hues supported the extermists in Pakistan, but does that imply that past policies cannot be changed? It was a mistake supporting these groups in the past, and the question is can we as a nation learn from our mistakes and change for the better?

I think that Pakistan can learn from its mistakes and change for the better, but I would be a fool to think that this metamorphis, for the better, will occur within my life time. It will not. The forces of history evolve slowly, but they do evolve and their time is measured in centuries and long years and not within a single time - yours or mine.

Ciao

Karachi Express # 97

You ar assuming that the ``mighty`` Moguls were not unruly. I am sure you must have historicial writers such as Ibn Kaandha , Ibn Bhendi etc. to support your thesis , the fact that these people are unruly is a legacy of the Moguls and their manner of rule.

By the way these ``mighty`` Moguls were not feeling warm and cosy with the really strong Persians on their Western frontier and always had to fight off the indepenedent-minded rulers of Hind, be they Afghans, Rajputs or Jatts or Marathas.

rsridhar, arjun_m,

Reg. Gandhi:
Everyone loves a pacifist...as long as he`s not on their side!

I liked the line in the movie where Gandhi remarks to the american journalist (just before the dandi march) - `Its not generals alone who can plan campaigns`.

cheers,

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ferozk,

It would be an absurdity to talk of india as a single entity in relation to social values. Large parts of bihar and UP will remain a disgrace to mankind for a long time, may be even gujarat may turn to a muslim no-live zone as a final epitah to a man who strived for religious tolerance.

But what has happened is for a sizeable part of the indians material progress has become a religion, and hopefully with some associated secular human values. Reduced corruption, visible material progress and a genuine sense of pride in being an indian are undeniable.

Once again a saving feature is there is no global hindutva ideology, like the jihad that can fertilize a local movement. It is hard to deny that every educated pakistani has supported the jihad on human right grounds, as great military strategy or as a legitimate religious activity.
I always believed that the secular and staregic versions are only maqurades for the genuine religious belief and support for jihad reinforced only by fatwafobia.

It is hard to visualise india becoming a hiduadist country, the same as pakistan ever becoming a moderate country. The very ideology of its formation forecloses any moderate options and the efforts to blame zia for all that is wrong has been a fundamental flaw in pak thinking. No one cares to ask, what was created by zia has been nurtured, expanded and sustained by govts of all hue, democratic to military pointimg to some fundamental pak predilictions.

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re: Mushy boy ko gussa kyon ata hai
Reality bites:
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/editor/opi1.htm
Sridhar

re:#84 by arjun_m
Gandhi is being remembered here while he is all but forgotten in the land of his birth. The movie is shown every now and then. I must have watched it many times over by now.
Ylh seems to have changed of late. If he throws a fit, it is all too bad! Americans know a good thing when they see one. Gandhi is one of the good things they seem to like.
Sridhar

Re: Jay # 85

As to the mystery of the roads, I was not even aware there were roads named after him in Lahore. To the best of my recollection, there are no roads named after him in Lahore.

Jay, India has hope, as you say, in a large part due to the independence of its political institutions from politics and there is a viable self-correcting mechanism in India. I know that you do not approve of Pakistanis and Pakistan blaming its past history, but Pakistan was never able to develop the independence of its institutions after partition and what ever institutional independence it might have had, was undermined by Ayub Khan and then the process was accelerated by Z. A. Bhutto and the coup d` grace administrated by Zia-ul-Haq.

Having said, the indpendence of Indian political institutions have been compromised by the induction of BJP/Sang Parivar/RSS cadres into them. To what extent this seepage of RSS-Sang Parivar ideology has affected the Indian politics by blurring the line between national politics and a party specific ideology still needs to be seen.

I disagree with you, when you say that Indians are their biggest critics. If Chowk is a reflection of that critism, then there is much to be desired.

I do not blame the Americans. The Americans could not have done, what they did to Pakistan without the active and willing cooperation of the Pakistanis themselves. I will apportion blame, where that blame is rightfully due and in some cases, though you may disagree, the British are accountable for their past misdeeds in South Asia. There is no sense in blaming the Taliban for Pakistan`s ill, because they were the consequences of our own deeds and as a nation, we have to accept our faults. Pakistan, if it is to progress, has to start by admiting its wrongs and realize, what those ``wrongs`` were, before it can correct them. Pakistan has many problems, most of them its own creation, and we have to solve them and the first step in that process is to admit that we have a problem.

If you had read the article, I had mentioned that political expedence has always ended up hurting Pakistan and it is for that reason, why I have serious misgivings about the present political reforms in Pakistan.

Jay, I am at loss to understand, why you would think that I support honor killings as a legitimate past time in Pakistan?

``Now if you are bold enough make a one line ststement that honour killing is a perfectly legal past time in pakistan. If you can accept that reality, there is hope for pakistan. ``

I think that you made a mistake in the above statement. Regardless, I do not believe the fact that honor killings are Islamic and thus, a legally legitimate past time in Pakistan.

Please remember that in Pakistan, Islam is frequently exploited for political ends and where the reason, for a certain act, is given as Islam, it is more likely to be based on a tribal custom or a political reason, which is often cloaked in the robes of shariat. What passes for Islam in Pakistan is not necessarily Islamic in its true sense of the meaning.

Ciao

ferozk 73,

Thanks for the doomsday predictions. If you have cared to observe on the chowk, you would have noticed a fundamental diffrenece between the indians and the pakistanis. YLH have posted several times on the chowk there are atleast five roads, three in lahore named after Abdus Salam. No one, not even a single pakistani dared to correct and post that no ylh, no there are no roads named after abdus salam.

This is the fundamental difference, there is hope for india simply because we are our own biggest critics. In the case of pakistanis it is always playing for the out side world. Take the case of death sentance for the rapists, it is against all of the laws of pakistan, against all of islamic priciples. but the supreme principle of pleasing the maericans rules.

This is the only reason that the educated like you blame the maericans for pakistns taliban creation, british for the kashmir terror etc. We indians take responsibility and that is a big difference.

Now if you are bold enough make a one line ststement that honour killing is a perfectly legal past time in pakistan. If you can accept that reality, there is hope for pakistan.

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re:#73 by ferozk
Just finished seeing the movie ``Gandhi`` on the History Channel here. I am always moved by the movie.
You are wrong about India being beautiful from outside and rotting inside. It is the other way around. India has always had problems including one of religious nature. These are not going to go away any time soon. The important thing is do Indians have a mechanism to fight injustice as and when it happens. You bet, they do.
Sridhar

re:#77 by AmericanExpress
I know when i see a demented person. One does not need any special kind of training. One sees them all the time on chowk!
I was only trying to make a point that it does not matter what Kofi Annan thinks or what the politicians are saying. What matters is the reality on ground. Read what Cowasjee says in his recent article. Pakistanis are being denied visas to US following 9/11. Koreans and Indians are benefitting in the process. It may seem unfair to you but that is how the real world works. Mush has talked to Bush about this unfair deal and Cowasjee hopes the situation will be rectified.
The question is: would you rather have Mush being felicitated by Harvard university or the country earning foreign exchange thr` remittances from ex-patriates? I know i would prefer the latter.
Sridhar

Ferozk #73
Your words of caution are indeed welcome. Indians need to very cautious -- the poison that you warn about can easily spread further, and no effort should be spared in arresting it. That said, I think that while caution is necessary, Indian institutions are also much stronger today than what they were even 10 years ago.

By the grace of the so-called ``War Against Terrorism``, thousands of Afghani kids have been killed. Whether we human-likes (a specie who looks like human, but mostly r not humans) acknowledge this or not, but each n every newborn values the same to his/her Lord, irrespective of their nationality, race, language, religion. Leaders of all the nations around the world have strongly condemned the 11th Sep incident, but hardly anyone has dared to question what has been staged in Afghanistan after September the 11th. In order to remove “Terrorist” from the face of the earth, they’ve got the license to kill each and every individual. They’ve not even thought for a moment, that these poor kids of Afghanistan, even don’t know, where is New York located and what is the meaning of WTC. This reminds me of the following poem, which is a question by a mother, whose kid was among the victim of the so-called “Ambassadors of Peace”.
“Lahu ki Daldal”
Mujhey to Shah se yeh pochna hai
merey masoom bachon ki khata kia the?
adhory totli batoon mein
kis gehri siaset ke azaim they?
khloney khailney walon ney
kis jageer ka jhaghra chukana tha?
mere bachon ke soney palnon mein
yeh jo dasht hol phela hai
issey ab kon chaney ga?
yeh meri kokh mein jo perhathi hai
bhari basti mein iss ka karb
aakhir kon janey ga?

by Mansoora Ahmed