Were We Too Hijacked by 9/11?

re:#84 by arjun_m
Gandhi is being remembered here while he is all but forgotten in the land of his birth. The movie is shown every now and then. I must have watched it many times over by now.
Ylh seems to have changed of late. If he throws a fit, it is all too bad! Americans know a good thing when they see one. Gandhi is one of the good things they seem to like.
Sridhar

Re: Jay # 85

As to the mystery of the roads, I was not even aware there were roads named after him in Lahore. To the best of my recollection, there are no roads named after him in Lahore.

Jay, India has hope, as you say, in a large part due to the independence of its political institutions from politics and there is a viable self-correcting mechanism in India. I know that you do not approve of Pakistanis and Pakistan blaming its past history, but Pakistan was never able to develop the independence of its institutions after partition and what ever institutional independence it might have had, was undermined by Ayub Khan and then the process was accelerated by Z. A. Bhutto and the coup d` grace administrated by Zia-ul-Haq.

Having said, the indpendence of Indian political institutions have been compromised by the induction of BJP/Sang Parivar/RSS cadres into them. To what extent this seepage of RSS-Sang Parivar ideology has affected the Indian politics by blurring the line between national politics and a party specific ideology still needs to be seen.

I disagree with you, when you say that Indians are their biggest critics. If Chowk is a reflection of that critism, then there is much to be desired.

I do not blame the Americans. The Americans could not have done, what they did to Pakistan without the active and willing cooperation of the Pakistanis themselves. I will apportion blame, where that blame is rightfully due and in some cases, though you may disagree, the British are accountable for their past misdeeds in South Asia. There is no sense in blaming the Taliban for Pakistan`s ill, because they were the consequences of our own deeds and as a nation, we have to accept our faults. Pakistan, if it is to progress, has to start by admiting its wrongs and realize, what those ``wrongs`` were, before it can correct them. Pakistan has many problems, most of them its own creation, and we have to solve them and the first step in that process is to admit that we have a problem.

If you had read the article, I had mentioned that political expedence has always ended up hurting Pakistan and it is for that reason, why I have serious misgivings about the present political reforms in Pakistan.

Jay, I am at loss to understand, why you would think that I support honor killings as a legitimate past time in Pakistan?

``Now if you are bold enough make a one line ststement that honour killing is a perfectly legal past time in pakistan. If you can accept that reality, there is hope for pakistan. ``

I think that you made a mistake in the above statement. Regardless, I do not believe the fact that honor killings are Islamic and thus, a legally legitimate past time in Pakistan.

Please remember that in Pakistan, Islam is frequently exploited for political ends and where the reason, for a certain act, is given as Islam, it is more likely to be based on a tribal custom or a political reason, which is often cloaked in the robes of shariat. What passes for Islam in Pakistan is not necessarily Islamic in its true sense of the meaning.

Ciao

ferozk 73,

Thanks for the doomsday predictions. If you have cared to observe on the chowk, you would have noticed a fundamental diffrenece between the indians and the pakistanis. YLH have posted several times on the chowk there are atleast five roads, three in lahore named after Abdus Salam. No one, not even a single pakistani dared to correct and post that no ylh, no there are no roads named after abdus salam.

This is the fundamental difference, there is hope for india simply because we are our own biggest critics. In the case of pakistanis it is always playing for the out side world. Take the case of death sentance for the rapists, it is against all of the laws of pakistan, against all of islamic priciples. but the supreme principle of pleasing the maericans rules.

This is the only reason that the educated like you blame the maericans for pakistns taliban creation, british for the kashmir terror etc. We indians take responsibility and that is a big difference.

Now if you are bold enough make a one line ststement that honour killing is a perfectly legal past time in pakistan. If you can accept that reality, there is hope for pakistan.

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re:#73 by ferozk
Just finished seeing the movie ``Gandhi`` on the History Channel here. I am always moved by the movie.
You are wrong about India being beautiful from outside and rotting inside. It is the other way around. India has always had problems including one of religious nature. These are not going to go away any time soon. The important thing is do Indians have a mechanism to fight injustice as and when it happens. You bet, they do.
Sridhar

re:#77 by AmericanExpress
I know when i see a demented person. One does not need any special kind of training. One sees them all the time on chowk!
I was only trying to make a point that it does not matter what Kofi Annan thinks or what the politicians are saying. What matters is the reality on ground. Read what Cowasjee says in his recent article. Pakistanis are being denied visas to US following 9/11. Koreans and Indians are benefitting in the process. It may seem unfair to you but that is how the real world works. Mush has talked to Bush about this unfair deal and Cowasjee hopes the situation will be rectified.
The question is: would you rather have Mush being felicitated by Harvard university or the country earning foreign exchange thr` remittances from ex-patriates? I know i would prefer the latter.
Sridhar

Ferozk #73
Your words of caution are indeed welcome. Indians need to very cautious -- the poison that you warn about can easily spread further, and no effort should be spared in arresting it. That said, I think that while caution is necessary, Indian institutions are also much stronger today than what they were even 10 years ago.

By the grace of the so-called ``War Against Terrorism``, thousands of Afghani kids have been killed. Whether we human-likes (a specie who looks like human, but mostly r not humans) acknowledge this or not, but each n every newborn values the same to his/her Lord, irrespective of their nationality, race, language, religion. Leaders of all the nations around the world have strongly condemned the 11th Sep incident, but hardly anyone has dared to question what has been staged in Afghanistan after September the 11th. In order to remove “Terrorist” from the face of the earth, they’ve got the license to kill each and every individual. They’ve not even thought for a moment, that these poor kids of Afghanistan, even don’t know, where is New York located and what is the meaning of WTC. This reminds me of the following poem, which is a question by a mother, whose kid was among the victim of the so-called “Ambassadors of Peace”.
“Lahu ki Daldal”
Mujhey to Shah se yeh pochna hai
merey masoom bachon ki khata kia the?
adhory totli batoon mein
kis gehri siaset ke azaim they?
khloney khailney walon ney
kis jageer ka jhaghra chukana tha?
mere bachon ke soney palnon mein
yeh jo dasht hol phela hai
issey ab kon chaney ga?
yeh meri kokh mein jo perhathi hai
bhari basti mein iss ka karb
aakhir kon janey ga?

by Mansoora Ahmed

Ref jay #61
[With in a span of fifty years, two countries with common heritage have evolved so differently. Vajpaye wqas in new york attending a service for the twenty indians who died, while in pakistan, al jareeza was interviewing the masterminds of the terror attack. In itlay 15 pakistanis were getting arretsde for al quaida links.
No romair or ylh wants to tlak of the values that brought about this difference]
The great irony that our dear boy Yasser doesn`t appreciate is that the Congress that led an extra-constitutional mass movement for independence ended up giving India a strong constitution while the strict Constitutionalist Jinnah ended up with a country where the Koran is the constitution, unless of course even that is superceded by a Provisional Constitution Order as issued by Pervez Musharraf.

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ferozk,
#73

Wiser words were never heard on Chowk. Kudos, I think you hit the nail on the head.

in his enthusiasm in putting down pakistan, he`d better remember that India is falling (& fallen) in the same gutter as Pakistan.

Re: arjun_m et rsaxena

You are more than welcome to call me names. I have no objections to it. Please feel free to insult me to your heart`s content. :-)

You are free to disagree with me and I welcome your disagreements, because this what makes Chowk such an interesting and instructional place to frequent.

You might not like hearing it, but India does have a problem with extermism. India is slowly assuming the characteristics of a facist state and there is a distinct intoleranace in the politics of India that was not present 10 years ago. Except for Hinduvata (sp) there seems to be no other debate in India and even the Indian newspapers are refering to the systematic manner in which BJP`s political ideologue, RSS and Sang Parivar, is posioning the Indian political debate.

About twenty years ago, we in Pakistan also refused to read the signs, which were clearly visable when Zia-ul-Haq started his policies of turning Pakistan into the nation that it is today. We also turned a blind eye to the events and now we have to pay for it; the payment of which can be measured in the terms of how the world sees us internationally.

I will give the credit to the Indians that they have done an excellent job of masking the image of India internationally. India maybe beautiful on the outside, but there is a rot inside India. India is merely twenty years behind Pakistan in this regard and if it continues with its present policy, India will be one day, where Pakistan finds itself today.

Ciao

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re:#61 by jay
Jay,
Sometimes, complements come from unexpected quarters. I was waiting in the Dept of Transportation to register my car when an elderly white American started talking to me. He had taken part in the second world war and remembered vividly all the German towns which the allied army captured before reaching Berlin. Then he wanted to know where i was from. Upon learning that i was from India, he said that it was perhaps among the very few countries in that part of the world that has not taken to terrorism as an answer to problems. This was a senior citizen. This is how an average american feels about India. Need i care what Mushy says or what Koffi Annan is saying? Heck, no.
Sridhar

re:#48 by rsaxena
Great news about the launch, Saxena. It is incredible how much these guys are able to accomplish with a limited budget.
Sridhar