Were We Too Hijacked by 9/11?

A brilliantly intriguing piece.

INSIGNIFICANCE OF 9/11

It is nauseating to see the indians and pakistanis so worked up about the significance of 9/11 to the americans, the so called killing of the innocent civilians in a wantom act of terrorism. The great free country has demolished a few hundred thousand as revenge.

What is forgotten is that in the US 30,000 people are shot dead every year by their own fellow country men. It appears these are not innocent people killed by senseless violence simply because these are acts of fellow americans. It is pathetic to see the crocodile tears for the 9/11 victims while even the simplest acts to control guns are rejected in the backdrop of 30,000 bodies year after year.

nasah #120
`` -- I think that Rice woman -- the great grand daughter of a slave has finally FOUND the definition of -- US ‘national interest’ for her Master -- massa Bush the junior -– ``...

nasah,
Is it a fault or matter of shame for ``Rice woman`` that she is ``great grand daughter of a slave``, or for that matter, are you insinuating that his great grand father became a slave due to something missing in him.

You may disagree with Rice. You must realize that impact of everything you wrote after this is lost due to ``daughter of a slave`` phrase.

Regards

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: Jim Hoagland`s article
Jim Hoagland has hit the nail on the head once again.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A28823-2002Aug16¬Found=true
Sridhar

Ref dost-mittar #105
[``The equivalent of Hindutva is the creation of Pakistan.``
Absolutely! Hindutvavadis are the true believers in the Two Nation Theory and would turn India into a mirror image of Pakistan. Gujarat, in that sense, could be equated to Jinnah`s Direct Action in Calcutta.]
Oh, dear!
Now you have gone and done it!
Yasser Latif Hamdani will never speak to you again!

“Flush from its Cold War victory, the mighty US military machine had diligently searched for new enemies. At best, success had been partial. Condoleezza Rice`s Foreign Affairs article from 2000 begins with this declaration: ``The United States has found it exceedingly difficult to define its `national interest` in the absence of Soviet power.”(Hoodbhoy)

Well Dr. Hoodbhoy -- I think that Rice woman -- the great grand daughter of a slave has finally FOUND the definition of -- US ‘national interest’ for her Master -- massa Bush the junior -–

it is spelled out in four phrases – Preemptive Strikes, -- Preemptive Invasions -- and Preemptive Regime Changes –- to avert Preemptive 9/11’s --

the Imperial Don Quixote of Texas -– from now on will be going after --All theWind Mills -- All over the World -- All the way – All Alone -- EXCEPT -- with the two trusted companions:

-- the British running dog Blair -- sniffing, raising the legs and marking the path all along -– and the Jewish Nazi court jester Sharon as the -- instigating Comic Relief – in this grim adventure.

now within the span of two years of the reign of this stupid pres9dent things have to such lowest depth for this great couny that -- a Justice Minister of German government -- compares Bush with Hitler – an outrageous claim for a German to make against an American –

but it tells you how grotesque this war mongering Texan kid Dubya looks to the outside world – beating hysterically the War Drums against the People of Iraq -- for NO apparent reason -- except to get ONE MAN -- out of his way -- that his murderous DADDY (500,000 Iraqis killed and buried alive) -- could not get out of -- HIS way.

after spending bilion of dollars of our tax money on this white elephant -- CIA -- we still can`t take out -- ONE MAN -- but we WILL burn down the whole BARN to find just -- ONE infeced NEEDLE --

now that`s sheer impotent arrogant cruel madness.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

arjun mian,

Why this ferocious determination to show Pakistan in bad light? I think most Pakistanis understand these issues. They also understand that despite the ``advances`` we Indians have made, we still are, like them, a rag-tag bunch of nobodys leading a hand-to-mouth existence for the most part.

I mean, it`s not like we have conquered the bloody universe, arjun bhai!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Prem #108
``On the other hand, Hindutva ``brigade`` does include some real violent thugs who are out and out evil``

If only it was possible to send these evil beings to kill leaders and ordinary people in Pakistan continuously for 10-15 years. Then perhaps Pakistanis will understand exactly the essential similarities and differences between Hindutva practitioners and jihadis.

Jay # 109

Sir, Aapko gussa bhi aata hai? Aur woh bhi itna zayada? Cool cool and Smile.

Regards

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ferozk,

The fundamental problem for which educated like you are basically responsible is the homogeniety of the society in most major issues. It is amusing to see people like you talking about babri majid demolition, what you and especially the educated pakistanis fail to notice that at least a thousand mosques have been built in kerala alone in the past 20 years. The numbver of chucrhes and other places of worship for all religious hues is on the incrase.

I hant come across any indian who is not proud of the lotus bahai temple in delhi. It is certain that no new hindu or ahmadia temple has been built in pakistan in the last 30 years. It was only PM who once posted that several temples in pakistan have been destroyed following a spontaneous response to babri majid. No educated pakistani wants to talk about it. It is this spineless attitude you the educated that annoys the hell out of me. Even today, many hindus wrire about babri, no one, no one from pakistan has written about the hindu temples of pakistan.

It will be hard to imagine for me to see a kerala with out muslims. My cousins study at a muslim school, neary 80 percent are hindus, because the school believes that its reputation depends on the quality of its products, admission is purely on merrit, only 10 percent reservation for muslims, and the fees are high. It may be hard to find a similar situation may be in gujarat. The essence of indian resiliance is its diversity. The weakness of pakistan is the denial of the truth, no pakistani wants to accept the muslim history of india, that islam of kerala are as old as the islam any where else, it was a hindu king who met the prophet that spread islam in kerala. The oldest mosque, Cheraman Mosque is named after him.

Now go and read Pak.org version of history, reflect on what you owe to fellow pakistanis as an educated person. It is the pathological jihadic thinking ( except for hamidm) of the pakistanis that irritates the hell out of most indians.

Ferozk, Dost-Mittar, Sadna,

IMO, the difference between Hindutva and Jihadi -both exclusivist, and therefore, deeply immoral - philosophies is this: Hindutva offers a much wider tent.

In that sense, Hindutva includes equivalents of BOTH Two-Nation Theorists and Jihadis. As far as I understand, among TNT believers are some who are not interested in using violence against others. They simply want a country when ``Muslims can live according to their own genius.`` Many Hindutva believers fall in exactly that same category. They are very peaceful people. They just don`t want Muslims ``interfering`` in how India is run.

On the other hand, Hindutva ``brigade`` does include some real violent thugs who are out and out evil, who do not mind actually spilling the blood of another human being to further their demented ageda. These are the blood brothers and sisters of Jihadi thugs.

ferozk #106
Those killed by VHP/BJP cadres while the police watch and the nation`s PM/Home Minister dissimulates are suffering as bad or worse fate than those killed by jihadis while Pakistanis dissumulate.

But please distinguish between the armed jihadi philosophy which is indiscriminate violence is the sole answer and Hindutva which says no such thing(but can reduce to this).

Re violence as principle and philosophy : Hindutva doesnot preach violence as principle and philosophy, its an ideology which talks of the primacy of Hindu rights like the Muslim League talked of the primacy of Muslim rights. The end product of both was violence of the sort seen in Gujarat, but that was not what most Hindutva supporters supported Hindutva for(and it was/is pretty stupid of them not to realise what would happen). The violence against innocents was not what was written into Hindutva manifesto when people voted for them, though it was certainly threatened by many as is being tried by Modi now.


Re violence as state policy : If violence is made state policy in India, we will have civil war, everyone knows. Like Pakistanis blame the US and India for jihadi blowback, BJP will blame Pakistan. But such arguments donot work well with voters who want a stable environment, jobs and facilities, and unlike the Pakistani Army, the BJP needs to answer the media and opposition parties on a daily basis and voters at regular intervals. For example, Narendra Modi who recently spoke of `teaching them(Muslims) a lesson` has had a report prepared against him by his own state government`s intelligence agency and is now being investigated by the National Human Rights Commission for his remarks which were broadcast on a TV news network this last Sunday.

The point is that violence against innocents is not quite written into state policy quite yet, because there are election and other public campaigns being run to oppose it.

On the other hand, armed jihad preaches violence as the sole principle and philosophy and is practised as state policy, under cover of deniability till this August. These jihadis have explicitly been organised, trained and armed by state policy for no purpose other than the sole and single purpose of killing their Muslim and nonMuslim opponents in Afghanistan and Kashmir by the Pakistani government with the support of Pakistanis all over the world, not just in Pakistan. Pakistani jihadis have killed 10s of thousands of people over more than 20 years without a single political party or body of citizens in Pakistan openly opposing it from ANY platform and none in sight to oppose it in future only unending justifications.


And you got it wrong, what I said was, neither can Pakistan do as it pleases in Kashmir as it did in Afghanistan nor will India to pay off Pakistan to stop pursuing jihad in Kashmir, like the US paid Pakistan off to stop pursuing jihad in Afghanistan. One example illustrating these differences is the more than 75% turnout on the recent election day in Kargil which Kargil residents say is their reply to Pakistan for its continual harrassment of border residents with shelling and violence.

Re: PM # 103

Yes, I agree that Germany and Japan were the exceptions. Still, PM, it takes a long time to change. It was only in 1999 that Germany changed its nationality laws based on a direct blood lines; laws that were created by Otto von Bismarck inthe 1880s and re-affirmed in Nurnmberg in 1934 during the biggest Nazi period. Germany has changed within a life time, but has the thought process of the Germans really changed within a life time also? Japan is as racist towards foreigners as it was in 1941. Yes; the political systems in both Germany and Japan changed for the better, but their mental outlook has not changed drastically since then. Germans have developed a tolerance for auslanders - foreigners, but in the former East Germany they still write on the walls ``auslanders aus!``

Re: Prem # 102

I agree with you! Well Said!

Re: Sadna # 104

Sadna, I equate the jihadi and Hinduavta philisophies as the same, because they both use violence to attain their aims. Period. I do not make the argument that violence is a perfectly normal method to attain objectives if it can be rationalized along religious arguments.

Agreeing with what you said, the same also applies to India, where the population has also supported Hinduavta philsophies. India, unlike Pakistan, has a functioning democracy and when the Indians elect a political party, which supports the ideology of Hinduavta, does that not suggest that Indian opinion also supports Hinduavta - enough to get it elected and form the Indian government? Does that not imply support for Hinduavta and its ideology in India?

Whether violence happens in Kashmir or India or whether it is committed by jihadis or Hinduavta`s followers, it is still violence. Giving a geographic limits to it to condoning it based on a national policy is wrong and by blaming the jihadis for violence in Kashmir, does that lessen the violence perpetuated by the disciples of Hinduavta in Gujrat? One commits violent acts against the Hindus and other replies by committing violent acts against Muslims. It kills people and it uses violence to justify its message. That my friend is simply wrong and must not be tolerated or condoned simply, because the reasoning is based on one`s sense of patriotism.

India is certainly not Afghanistan and yes, the United States is not paying for the violence in Kashmir. Does that make a difference? Like I said, please do not use geography to justify violence or a violent response to violence itself.

Ciao

Ferozk
You are mistaken in equating Hindutva and jihad philosophies. The equivalent of Hindutva is the creation of Pakistan.

I agree with jay that many sections of Pakistani opinion have been supporting jihad under one pretext or another.

Even those supporting them on the count of human rights in Kashmir are hypocritical a-holes because while preaching human rights to the Indians, they donot bother keep any tab on what exactly heavenseeking jihadis are doing in Kashmir, nor have these Pakistanis made sure to set up ANY institutional framework to check the misuse of the resources, arms and training they are generously supplying to these freeroaming psychopaths. Equating Hindutva with jihad will not do it either and remember Kashmir is not Afghanistan to do as you please and India is not the US to pay you off to stop doing it.

re. Ferozk #98
Khan sahib, I sometimes wonder how one can write so cogently at times (such as #98) and other times... well... :)
Your point on Pak ideology still being negotiated is quite apt, and eqally liberating to ponder on.

Two comments:
1. I think the distinction Jay was making lay in his use of the term ``all Pakistanis [in one way or another]...`` This may be only slightly inaccurate. However, supporting jihad as a counter to perceived human rights abuse is no different from, say, Indian`s support of their army in IOK -- on the conceptual level, that is. Jihad in this sense may have nothing to do with visions of religious conquest, and, i believe, is the sense in which the vast majority of Pakistanis tacitly supported it. Of course, PTV propaganda, countering DD`s, made it easy to lend such moral support. So Jay, maybe you can give your Islamophoboa a rest, or a rethink? Religious extemism might be a problem, and a large one at that in Paksitan, but is by no means pervasive to the exent you suggest.

2. Feroz, you would be surprised at how soon mindsets, even, or EASPECAILLY, collective mindsets may change. Not in your lifetime? hmmm... Heard of Germany? Japan? Why should it be so difficult for two peoples who share such a great deal of cultural heritage, incuding language? Hope isn`t enought Feroz. WILL is what brings real change.

rgds,
PM

re: Ferozk # 98

Great post. Hindutva thugs are no less evil than Jihadi thugs. Indians and Pakistanis must treat them equally, like the vermin they are.

In this regard, I must say, Pakistan appears to be changing for the better (at least at the level of common every-day folk) - they are increasingly questioning old bigotries; and India is changing for the worse - increasingly the cancer of bigotry is finding hospitable terrain in India.

I hope we Indians stop this immoral slide, and as Indians and Pakistanis help each other become better, more humane, less religiously obsessed societies. If we don`t, then in just a few short decades, there will be little left for either of us to celebrate.

Re: Jay # 93

Hinduavta, as you said, might be local and peculiar to India and may not have the transational appeal of a jihad, but if ``all politics are local``, then the influence and message of Hinduavata directly affects Pakistan. In this sense, its importance cannot be minmized. Furthermore, as the dislike of Pakistan and the Muslims is akin to the cause celebre of Hinduavata, there is no consolation from that fact that its lacks the intensity of a jihad.

To argue otherwise, would be tantamount to creating a distinction between the two; a distinction, which seeks to justify violence and extermism based on a political reasoning. Hinduavta is an extermist philosophy since it advocates violence to attain its aim and like any political philosophy, which advocates violence it should not be tolerated.

Contary to what you have suggested, Hinduavta did ``fertilize`` a local movement in the birthplace of Gandhiji, which unleased a spasm of violence; a violence that had political motivations behind it. It did ``fertilize`` a movement, which led to the destruction of the Babri Masjid. These two examples, were all local and when taken in their sum, they do represent a national trend in India towards violence and extermism in politics.

I will agree with you that Pakistanis have supported jihad for one reason or another, but how does that seperate the distinction between adherents of Hinduavta and the jihadis, who both use its violence to attain political ends?

The point being discussed, and please correct me if I am wrong, is not to justify a politically rationalized dichotomy over the employment of violence for political ends, but to suggest that violence used for furthering political aims is simply wrong. Period.

Jay, the reality of the situation is that after 55 years of independence, Pakistan has not been able to articulate, what constitutes as its national ideology. That debate is still raging, in the true sense of the word, and hence, it is too early to predict that Pakistan cannot be a moderate nation. In the same token, because there was no historic precedent in India, it does not mean that India will always remain a tolerant nation. These a priori assumptions, which you are alluding to, can be misleading and prone to be proven wrong.

You and I exist in what the Germans refer to as ``augenblick`` - an historic moment - and thus, we cannot say with certainity what the final verdict will be. We can only pass judgements on our time and that too, within a very narrrow judgement biased by the limits of our own experience and constrainted by the time, we have managed to experience those events in. We cannot pass historic verdicts with our limitated experience, when history has no limits and will continue to evolve long after, we have shuffled off this mortal coil.

Yes, the governments of all hues supported the extermists in Pakistan, but does that imply that past policies cannot be changed? It was a mistake supporting these groups in the past, and the question is can we as a nation learn from our mistakes and change for the better?

I think that Pakistan can learn from its mistakes and change for the better, but I would be a fool to think that this metamorphis, for the better, will occur within my life time. It will not. The forces of history evolve slowly, but they do evolve and their time is measured in centuries and long years and not within a single time - yours or mine.

Ciao

Karachi Express # 97

You ar assuming that the ``mighty`` Moguls were not unruly. I am sure you must have historicial writers such as Ibn Kaandha , Ibn Bhendi etc. to support your thesis , the fact that these people are unruly is a legacy of the Moguls and their manner of rule.

By the way these ``mighty`` Moguls were not feeling warm and cosy with the really strong Persians on their Western frontier and always had to fight off the indepenedent-minded rulers of Hind, be they Afghans, Rajputs or Jatts or Marathas.

rsridhar, arjun_m,

Reg. Gandhi:
Everyone loves a pacifist...as long as he`s not on their side!

I liked the line in the movie where Gandhi remarks to the american journalist (just before the dandi march) - `Its not generals alone who can plan campaigns`.

cheers,

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

ferozk,

It would be an absurdity to talk of india as a single entity in relation to social values. Large parts of bihar and UP will remain a disgrace to mankind for a long time, may be even gujarat may turn to a muslim no-live zone as a final epitah to a man who strived for religious tolerance.

But what has happened is for a sizeable part of the indians material progress has become a religion, and hopefully with some associated secular human values. Reduced corruption, visible material progress and a genuine sense of pride in being an indian are undeniable.

Once again a saving feature is there is no global hindutva ideology, like the jihad that can fertilize a local movement. It is hard to deny that every educated pakistani has supported the jihad on human right grounds, as great military strategy or as a legitimate religious activity.
I always believed that the secular and staregic versions are only maqurades for the genuine religious belief and support for jihad reinforced only by fatwafobia.

It is hard to visualise india becoming a hiduadist country, the same as pakistan ever becoming a moderate country. The very ideology of its formation forecloses any moderate options and the efforts to blame zia for all that is wrong has been a fundamental flaw in pak thinking. No one cares to ask, what was created by zia has been nurtured, expanded and sustained by govts of all hue, democratic to military pointimg to some fundamental pak predilictions.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: Mushy boy ko gussa kyon ata hai
Reality bites:
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/editor/opi1.htm
Sridhar

re:#84 by arjun_m
Gandhi is being remembered here while he is all but forgotten in the land of his birth. The movie is shown every now and then. I must have watched it many times over by now.
Ylh seems to have changed of late. If he throws a fit, it is all too bad! Americans know a good thing when they see one. Gandhi is one of the good things they seem to like.
Sridhar

Re: Jay # 85

As to the mystery of the roads, I was not even aware there were roads named after him in Lahore. To the best of my recollection, there are no roads named after him in Lahore.

Jay, India has hope, as you say, in a large part due to the independence of its political institutions from politics and there is a viable self-correcting mechanism in India. I know that you do not approve of Pakistanis and Pakistan blaming its past history, but Pakistan was never able to develop the independence of its institutions after partition and what ever institutional independence it might have had, was undermined by Ayub Khan and then the process was accelerated by Z. A. Bhutto and the coup d` grace administrated by Zia-ul-Haq.

Having said, the indpendence of Indian political institutions have been compromised by the induction of BJP/Sang Parivar/RSS cadres into them. To what extent this seepage of RSS-Sang Parivar ideology has affected the Indian politics by blurring the line between national politics and a party specific ideology still needs to be seen.

I disagree with you, when you say that Indians are their biggest critics. If Chowk is a reflection of that critism, then there is much to be desired.

I do not blame the Americans. The Americans could not have done, what they did to Pakistan without the active and willing cooperation of the Pakistanis themselves. I will apportion blame, where that blame is rightfully due and in some cases, though you may disagree, the British are accountable for their past misdeeds in South Asia. There is no sense in blaming the Taliban for Pakistan`s ill, because they were the consequences of our own deeds and as a nation, we have to accept our faults. Pakistan, if it is to progress, has to start by admiting its wrongs and realize, what those ``wrongs`` were, before it can correct them. Pakistan has many problems, most of them its own creation, and we have to solve them and the first step in that process is to admit that we have a problem.

If you had read the article, I had mentioned that political expedence has always ended up hurting Pakistan and it is for that reason, why I have serious misgivings about the present political reforms in Pakistan.

Jay, I am at loss to understand, why you would think that I support honor killings as a legitimate past time in Pakistan?

``Now if you are bold enough make a one line ststement that honour killing is a perfectly legal past time in pakistan. If you can accept that reality, there is hope for pakistan. ``

I think that you made a mistake in the above statement. Regardless, I do not believe the fact that honor killings are Islamic and thus, a legally legitimate past time in Pakistan.

Please remember that in Pakistan, Islam is frequently exploited for political ends and where the reason, for a certain act, is given as Islam, it is more likely to be based on a tribal custom or a political reason, which is often cloaked in the robes of shariat. What passes for Islam in Pakistan is not necessarily Islamic in its true sense of the meaning.

Ciao

ferozk 73,

Thanks for the doomsday predictions. If you have cared to observe on the chowk, you would have noticed a fundamental diffrenece between the indians and the pakistanis. YLH have posted several times on the chowk there are atleast five roads, three in lahore named after Abdus Salam. No one, not even a single pakistani dared to correct and post that no ylh, no there are no roads named after abdus salam.

This is the fundamental difference, there is hope for india simply because we are our own biggest critics. In the case of pakistanis it is always playing for the out side world. Take the case of death sentance for the rapists, it is against all of the laws of pakistan, against all of islamic priciples. but the supreme principle of pleasing the maericans rules.

This is the only reason that the educated like you blame the maericans for pakistns taliban creation, british for the kashmir terror etc. We indians take responsibility and that is a big difference.

Now if you are bold enough make a one line ststement that honour killing is a perfectly legal past time in pakistan. If you can accept that reality, there is hope for pakistan.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re:#73 by ferozk
Just finished seeing the movie ``Gandhi`` on the History Channel here. I am always moved by the movie.
You are wrong about India being beautiful from outside and rotting inside. It is the other way around. India has always had problems including one of religious nature. These are not going to go away any time soon. The important thing is do Indians have a mechanism to fight injustice as and when it happens. You bet, they do.
Sridhar

re:#77 by AmericanExpress
I know when i see a demented person. One does not need any special kind of training. One sees them all the time on chowk!
I was only trying to make a point that it does not matter what Kofi Annan thinks or what the politicians are saying. What matters is the reality on ground. Read what Cowasjee says in his recent article. Pakistanis are being denied visas to US following 9/11. Koreans and Indians are benefitting in the process. It may seem unfair to you but that is how the real world works. Mush has talked to Bush about this unfair deal and Cowasjee hopes the situation will be rectified.
The question is: would you rather have Mush being felicitated by Harvard university or the country earning foreign exchange thr` remittances from ex-patriates? I know i would prefer the latter.
Sridhar

Ferozk #73
Your words of caution are indeed welcome. Indians need to very cautious -- the poison that you warn about can easily spread further, and no effort should be spared in arresting it. That said, I think that while caution is necessary, Indian institutions are also much stronger today than what they were even 10 years ago.

By the grace of the so-called ``War Against Terrorism``, thousands of Afghani kids have been killed. Whether we human-likes (a specie who looks like human, but mostly r not humans) acknowledge this or not, but each n every newborn values the same to his/her Lord, irrespective of their nationality, race, language, religion. Leaders of all the nations around the world have strongly condemned the 11th Sep incident, but hardly anyone has dared to question what has been staged in Afghanistan after September the 11th. In order to remove “Terrorist” from the face of the earth, they’ve got the license to kill each and every individual. They’ve not even thought for a moment, that these poor kids of Afghanistan, even don’t know, where is New York located and what is the meaning of WTC. This reminds me of the following poem, which is a question by a mother, whose kid was among the victim of the so-called “Ambassadors of Peace”.
“Lahu ki Daldal”
Mujhey to Shah se yeh pochna hai
merey masoom bachon ki khata kia the?
adhory totli batoon mein
kis gehri siaset ke azaim they?
khloney khailney walon ney
kis jageer ka jhaghra chukana tha?
mere bachon ke soney palnon mein
yeh jo dasht hol phela hai
issey ab kon chaney ga?
yeh meri kokh mein jo perhathi hai
bhari basti mein iss ka karb
aakhir kon janey ga?

by Mansoora Ahmed

Ref jay #61
[With in a span of fifty years, two countries with common heritage have evolved so differently. Vajpaye wqas in new york attending a service for the twenty indians who died, while in pakistan, al jareeza was interviewing the masterminds of the terror attack. In itlay 15 pakistanis were getting arretsde for al quaida links.
No romair or ylh wants to tlak of the values that brought about this difference]
The great irony that our dear boy Yasser doesn`t appreciate is that the Congress that led an extra-constitutional mass movement for independence ended up giving India a strong constitution while the strict Constitutionalist Jinnah ended up with a country where the Koran is the constitution, unless of course even that is superceded by a Provisional Constitution Order as issued by Pervez Musharraf.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

ferozk,
#73

Wiser words were never heard on Chowk. Kudos, I think you hit the nail on the head.

in his enthusiasm in putting down pakistan, he`d better remember that India is falling (& fallen) in the same gutter as Pakistan.

Re: arjun_m et rsaxena

You are more than welcome to call me names. I have no objections to it. Please feel free to insult me to your heart`s content. :-)

You are free to disagree with me and I welcome your disagreements, because this what makes Chowk such an interesting and instructional place to frequent.

You might not like hearing it, but India does have a problem with extermism. India is slowly assuming the characteristics of a facist state and there is a distinct intoleranace in the politics of India that was not present 10 years ago. Except for Hinduvata (sp) there seems to be no other debate in India and even the Indian newspapers are refering to the systematic manner in which BJP`s political ideologue, RSS and Sang Parivar, is posioning the Indian political debate.

About twenty years ago, we in Pakistan also refused to read the signs, which were clearly visable when Zia-ul-Haq started his policies of turning Pakistan into the nation that it is today. We also turned a blind eye to the events and now we have to pay for it; the payment of which can be measured in the terms of how the world sees us internationally.

I will give the credit to the Indians that they have done an excellent job of masking the image of India internationally. India maybe beautiful on the outside, but there is a rot inside India. India is merely twenty years behind Pakistan in this regard and if it continues with its present policy, India will be one day, where Pakistan finds itself today.

Ciao

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re:#61 by jay
Jay,
Sometimes, complements come from unexpected quarters. I was waiting in the Dept of Transportation to register my car when an elderly white American started talking to me. He had taken part in the second world war and remembered vividly all the German towns which the allied army captured before reaching Berlin. Then he wanted to know where i was from. Upon learning that i was from India, he said that it was perhaps among the very few countries in that part of the world that has not taken to terrorism as an answer to problems. This was a senior citizen. This is how an average american feels about India. Need i care what Mushy says or what Koffi Annan is saying? Heck, no.
Sridhar

re:#48 by rsaxena
Great news about the launch, Saxena. It is incredible how much these guys are able to accomplish with a limited budget.
Sridhar

Asia Times online says

India isolated - Kofi Annan says interantional community must have a say in the future of captive kashmir - Will hindu fanatics come to their senses and negotiate? Now that Pakistan has (actually India has) successfully internationalized the issue of captive Kashmir, and India has raised international fears of state terror (events of Gujjrat) and Hindu fanatics in link to acts of terror in India has been established - what can Pakistan expect? Will the Hindu fanatics deescalate? Will the long suffering and destitute Indians (largest number of absolut poor in the world) get answer as to why Billions of Dollars were wasted in the effort to coerse Pakistan? I doubt very much if any answer will be forthcoming from the Hindu fanatics - but that is for indians of good will to ponder.
All the while, Musharraf, is feted, lionized in the US - gets standing ovations, is sought out to address the American think tanks and media outlet -
Hindu fanatics must, because it is their part of their agenda, to raise the temperature with Pakistan, The international community, especially Amnesty international cannot post inspectors in captive kashmir, they cannot monitor the so-called ``free and fair`` elections, the Indian hopes to engineer in captive kashmir. We should be vigilant, the indian will start some mischief soon.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

British Indians turned off flight from Spain for they ‘looked suspicious’

Press Trust of India

Madrid, Sept 13: Four Britons of Indian origin were prevented from returning home to UK because a number of fellow passengers on their charter flight thought they looked suspicious and threatened to leave the aircraft, Madrid daily El Pais reported on Friday.

The newspaper said the four men, whose travel documents were in order, were victims of ``September 11 syndrome``.

Tsk, Tsk - really sad, no, arjun - but they must have muslims

Another smart move by India. Basically give access to all the foreign diplomats who want to see the elections in Kashmir while officially maintaining policy of not extending ``formal invitation`` that would undermine our own Election Commission. Our sovereignity should be guarded zealously while allowing those who are interested to see the fairness of the process. :

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=241899

EC permits visits by envoys during
J&K polls, advances poll timing
Shahid K Abbas in New Delhi

The Election Commission on Friday announced that foreign diplomats would be given access to polling centres in Jammu and Kashmir during the Sep-Oct assembly elections.

It has also decided to advance the poll timing to 0700-1600 hours IST (from 0800-1700 IST announced earlier).

``For a request, the Commission has issued special passes to 28 diplomats to visit the polling centres,`` Deputy Election Commissioner and official EC spokesman A N Jha said.

The countries that had sought these passes are US, UK, Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Japan, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the representative of the European Commission, he said

...holy $hit...this is so sad...when, why, and how did this ferozk fellow become a fanatic?....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Vajpayee should have been in Gujjrat - attending a service for more than 2000 Indians, fellow Indians burned to death - because they were of the wrong confession.

A QUESTION OF DESTINY,

With in a span of fifty years, two countries with common heritage have evolved so differently. Vajpaye wqas in new york attending a service for the twenty indians who died, while in pakistan, al jareeza was interviewing the masterminds of the terror attack. In itlay 15 pakistanis were getting arretsde for al quaida links.

No romair or ylh wants to tlak of the values that brought about this difference

Re: arjun_m # 52

Is there a difference between Hindu or Muslim or Jewish or Christian fundlementalism?

They are all the same, because they all advocate violent means to attain political aims. That makes them a terrorist organization. Period. Political extermism has no distinction from terrorism if it uses violence for a political end.

Otherwise, we will risk the semantical arguments of who is a freedom fighter and who is not and who is a terrorist. It was India, which made this argument in regards to Kashmir and if India has political groups that advocate violence in order to achieve their political aims, this argument applies also to India.

As George W. Bush said, ``either you with the terrorists or you are with us`` and given the nature of the war on terrorism, as defined by the United States, there is no room or nuances to make that specific distinction. Either India is against terrorism or India is for terrorism and India cannot be both at the same time.

Ciao

RSaxena:

``suxena #48,

please spare us ur nerdiness. ``

HAHAHAHA LOL!!! Boss, tu gaya... :)

Lajwantiben #46
I feel so sad about Deepika

Khabar tori na leeni re
bahut din beetey

Maaro jooti. Nice modern gent like American Express cannot make chapati but can dance on left foot in caps see?

mithuna and Pankaj,

mithuna, thanks for your correction. Yes, this PSLV does not have a cryo-stage.

When I was at ISRO (5 yrs ago), engines were also named based on their stage (PS1,PS2, etc). The GSLV third stage was often referred as `C3`, C for cryo. This and the fact that this PSLV attained GTO, made me think they must have used cryo for the last stage.

After reading your post I called up a friend in the ISRO cryo div. and confirmed what you wrote. But then how did it attain GTO??? My friend says all 4 stages of the original PSLV were souped-up. He used the phrase `PSLV was simply elogated`, meaning all 4 stages carried more fuel.

------------
Pankaj, yes, its a great breakthrough in terms of cost since the PSLV is very much cheaper than the GSLV. But off course the GSLV can haul 2.5 tons while the PSLV only 1 ton.


``What is your opinion about the ISRO planning a manned mission to moon.``

I haven`t been keeping tabs on this, but as far as I know they mean sending a satellite to the moon and not a manned mission, which would be impossible given ISRO`s shoestring budget! A moon satellite may not be that much of an expensive proposition.

Thx,

suxena #48,

please spare us ur nerdiness.

Anarayan

I am a little confused. I thought the orbit of GSLV is 36000 km. Then how does this PSLV achieve a range of 36000 km? Last time due to underpowered rocket our GSLV could not achieve a range of 36000 and hence strayed from the orbit after a couple of weeks. If we can put a GSLV into the orbit this time, it would be a technological breakthrough.

PS What is your opinion about the ISRO planning a manned mission to moon. What do you think would be the cost incurred in such an ambitious project ? How much do you think would be the technological spin off from this project and whether such a mission worthwhile. I read somewhere that ISRO claims it is achievable by 2008/2009. China is also planning a similar mission but they claim they can do it earlier than us, perhaps by 2005/2006.

rsaxena, anarayan, mithuna, maharana,
This is great news for India. It is a great technological achievement. With this we can save $ 60 million a launch that the Europeans used to chare us and hopefully get a chunk of the satellite launch business. It?s expected to be over a trillion dollars a year in the near future.

Faruk

rsaxena, anarayan and mithuna,
Great news about PSLV success!! Hope we continue doing better the same way.
Congratulations to Indian engineers and scientists.
Adios

{{The `C4` part is telling though. }}

Actually in this case, it`s not. The C4 does not have a cryogenic stage...C4 is just a continuation of the numbering scheme. The first three Developmental launches were D1,D2,D3 and then next four launches have been named C1,C2,C3 and C4. (C for commercial? i`m not sure.)

And PSLV was always capable of launching to GTO (not GSO)... only smaller payloads. The uprated PSLV-C4 has been able to launch the 1060Kg METSAT. Further, ISRO argues that with some more modifications (but still without a cryogenic stage) the PSLV can be used as the launch vehicle for the proposed moon orbiter as well.

The GSLV (with cryogenic upper stages) will continue to be developed for heavier communication satellites.

rsaxena,

***{PSLV-C4 successfully launched}***

With GSLV`s success, I thought ISRO reached the end of its goals...but looks otherwise.

The original PSLV can reach 1000 km. So I was surprised to read that this one attained 36000 km (geo-synchronous). The `C4` part is telling though. That means they replaced the 4th stage of the original PSLV (which is a liquid motor) with a Cryogenic motor (thus the `C` and `4`).

If mid-sized PSLV can attain 36000, that`s great news! (I miss ISRO!)

cheers,

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Rejoinder to #49:
``...However, a Pakistani embassy official in Rome said there was no evidence the arrested men were Pakistanis and said his embassy had been allowed no access to the suspects to find out...``
Deja vu?
http://in.news.yahoo.com/020912/137/1v5h6.html

...neat...

{PSLV-C4 successfully launched

The Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle-C4, carrying the 1060 kg METSAT -- India`s first dedicated meteorological satellite -- soared into the azure sky at 1557 hours (IST) on Thursday, from the Satish Dhawan Space Centre from Sriharikota.

Carrying for the first time a 1000-kg plus payload, PSLV-C4, an improved version of India`s workhorse PSLV, injected the METSAT into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit 21 minutes after lift-off.}

Soon Italians will be joining Indians in accusing Pakistan of cross-border terrorism:
Police in Sicily have announced that they have arrested 15 Pakistanis on charges of conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism. (BBC)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2253097.stm
What did Italy do to provoke Pakistanis` ire? Host the Pope?

Reply Ferozk, Nasah #36

“Personally, what is stopping the Americans from invading Iraq is the ``morning after`` syndrome. Attacking and defeating Iraq is not an American worry. Garrisoning Iraq for the next few years is a concern, which is causing the Bush administration to ponder the imponderable consequences of their action.”

Ferozk, Nasah, excuse me for jumping in, but IMO…

Domestic politics wise it would be very difficult for the US to actually quit Iraq after invading it without installing some sort of a democracy – and the “Hosni Mubarak won 98% of the Egyptian vote” type democracy wouldn’t stand up to the media’s scrutiny either. The consequences of a (large) genuine Arab democracy would be quite destabilising on much of the ME (can you imagine? Saudi next to a genuine democracy? With freedom of speech?) – so a democratic Iraq is contrary to (currently dominant) US interests in the short to medium term.

“Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that the above mentioned concern is slowly trickling into the American awareness and is causing the American public to question the tune played by the Bush-Chenny-Rumsfeld-Wolfwitz quartet.”

I think the ``aftermath must be democratic`` thing is more likely what is giving the US cold feet. The Administration, and those who contributed to its election fund, don’t suffer because of spending (so long as the country accepts it as necessary, for eg on the war on drugs) – on the contrary they profit from it. (jobs, promotions, contracts.) As someone who has worked for a Beltway Bandit, just MHO.

I get the feeling that the situation in Iraq is not comparable to Lebanon – with multiple private armies hardened by years of conflict, and several motivated against the US by religious conviction – if only because Saddam doesn’t tolerate these. The only exception to this are the Kurdish militias – who, for their own reasons, are unlikely to take on the US.

“The Taliban were removed, because they could not secure the country, end the factionalization of Afghanistan and create a peaceful environment, which would have allowed Unocal - the American oil company - to build an oil pipeline from CAR via Afghanistan to Multan and then onwards to India.”

Vaisai, that sounds like a good reason to get rid of them.

Regards.

Reply Frangki Khush #44

“Who is the real enemy of the entire humanity?”

Khushbai, I am guess…..Padro AlmodOVar for tharty thousands dollar…no, no, I am think….

…Frunkenfarter from Rocky Horrors Fillum Show, na….

…or maybe…Karl Poppers?

Oh…truck question, haiN?

But Iknow, iknow.

Answer is: DEEPKA!

I win!

Slaam!

(Idonut thinking Deepka is really enemy of the ENTIRE humantys, ok. I am think your question is little munhoos for this reasons. Yous hould saying eighty/niney parcent, then I tis ok. nowi tis not very niceness. YOush ouldapolgise to Deepka.)

Re: Dost-Mittar
``...it will also change for ever the rule of engagement in the world affairs...``
No, it won`t. The `rules of engagement` have always been the same -- might is right. And might has been accumulated by democratic societies (not by accident but because ideas, including technology, flow and faster in democracies) better Need proof -- read `Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise to Western Power` by Victor Davis Hanson

Who is the real enemy of the entire humanity?

Read on! and check yourself if you are still shamelessly wiggling your Ba Ba Blacksheep fatass?

``The worse form of slavery is when the slave believes that he has his own mind---and turns against his own kind to persecute them. A satisfacory pat on his back is all he seeks from the master. ``--F_K

``(White) house nigger Mushharraf is awfully proud to be part of the anti-``terrorist`` program---because the WhiteyMaster has decreed it. It never occured to him before that.``----F_K

``Should war break out in the Middle East again,... or should any Arab nation fire missiles against Israel, as the Iraqis did, a nuclear escalation, once unthinkable except as a last resort, would now be a strong probability.``
Seymour Hersh

``Arabs may have the oil, but we have the matches.`` Ariel Sharon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Israeli Weapons of Mass Destruction: a Threat to Peace
by John Steinbach
DC Iraq Coalition, March 2002
Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), globalresearch.ca, 3 March 2002

With between 200 and 500 thermonuclear weapons and a sophisticated delivery system, Israel has quietly supplanted Britain as the World`s 5th Largest nuclear power, and may currently rival France and China in the size and sophistication of its nuclear arsenal. Although dwarfed by the nuclear arsenals of the U.S. and Russia, each possessing over 10,000 nuclear weapons, Israel nonetheless is a major nuclear power, and should be publically recognized as such. Since the Gulf War in 1991, while much attention has been lavished on the threat posed by Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, the major culprit in the region, Israel, has been largely ignored. Possessing chemical and biological weapons, an extremely sophisticated nuclear arsenal, and an aggressive strategy for their actual use, Israel provides the major regional impetus for the development of weapons of mass destruction and represents an acute threat to peace and stability in the Middle East. The Israeli nuclear program represents a serious impediment to nuclear disarmament and nonproliferation and, with India and Pakistan, is a potential nuclear flashpoint (prospects of meaningful non-proliferation are a delusion so long as the nuclear weapons states insist on maintaining their arsenals). Citizens concerned about sanctions against Iraq, peace with justice in the Middle East, and nuclear disarmament have an obligation to speak out forcefully against the Israeli nuclear program.

re: India`s muslims
Indian muslims are different from Pakistani muslims. Most of us in India know that. How different are they? Why is it that ,out of all those muslims interned in Montama Bay, not even one is from India? How come Indian muslims outside Kashmir do not empathise with Pak on Kashmir, a very emotional issue for the Pakistanis ? The following article tells it all.

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15072002/1507200219.htm

Despite this difference, we find Pakistanis shedding crocodile tears at the loss of muslim lives in Gujarat while thousands of Bihari muslims dream of coming someday to the ``land of the Pure``. Talk of hypocrisy!
Sridhar

#30 by emthree on September 11, 2002
FK: Who is Hussain Nasr? Thanks
--

Please access:
www.nasr.org

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Arjun_m # 23,
How did you get the idea that I wanted US to import more from pakistan? My post showed no concern to that issue.
Adios

Re: nasah

Yaar, what happens if Bush invades before elections? LOL

Personally, what is stopping the Americans from invading Iraq is the ``morning after`` syndrome. Attacking and defeating Iraq is not an American worry. Garrisoning Iraq for the next few years is a concern, which is causing the Bush administration to ponder the imponderable consequences of their action.

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that the above mentioned concern is slowly trickling into the American awareness and is causing the American public to question the tune played by the Bush-Chenny-Rumsfeld-Wolfwitz quartet.

Re: Drdr

The Taliban were installed to get rid of the warlordism, which was hurting the trade and to lower the cost of transporting goods between CARs, Iran and Pakistan.

The Taliban were removed, because they could not secure the country, end the factionalization of Afghanistan and create a peaceful environment, which would have allowed Unocal - the American oil company - to build an oil pipeline from CAR via Afghanistan to Multan and then onwards to India.

Taliban were removed, because they could not deliver the economic bonaza the Americans were hoping for and that was, establish peace in Afghanistan that would have allowed the Americans to transport CAR/Caspian crude via the shortest distence instead of building a pipeline via Turkey.

Ciao

Prof Hoodbhoy
I cannot understand the standard Pakistani complaint about the US first supporting mujahidden then abandoning them. After all thats what Pakistan did, too, only it abandoned them about 13 years later than the US did.

The national interest arguments used were the same, the US first supported the Afghan and Arab mujahiddeen to serve its national interest then abandoned them when its national interest was no longer served by supporting them. Has Pakistan done any different?

In attempting military domination to safeguard their commerical interests, the US is doing nothing different from what any other nation in the world is doing, whether in Africa or in Asia. Even rebels in Sierra Leone were fighting over diamond mines.

For example, re safeguarding lines of supply, are we saying Pakistan has never taken advantage of internal conflict to pursue its interest in installing puppet governments in neighbouring regions to gain control of supplies of Central Asian oil or the rivers flowing out of Jammu and Kashmir?

For what reason has Pakistan pursued alliances with Arab governments, even renamed some of its cities after famous Arabs and supplied their armies with personnel? Cannot this be defined as unprincipled pursuit of narrow interests too, given that these governments are dictatorial and extremist?


btw the threat to national sovereignity through military domination is the easiest to identify and hence make arguments against. More insidious eroding of national sovereignities is through control of trade, agriculture, use of natural resources, culture, traditional knowledge, ideas including the worldwide ideological/religious domination attempted by oil-rich Islamists now and communists earlier.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/sep/11rajeev.htm

....an interesting and different perspective on september 11...he is right on with most of his arguments, except when he whines about american indifference to india`s fight against musharraf-brand terrorism...it is not america`s job to fight india`s battles!...

...amongst others, his point about iraq is particularly valid...it seems like bush is going after saddam for the sake of his father`s legacy rather than any strategic rationale...the american economy cannot afford a war right now...if this is a moral argument, go after all the damn dictators, not just saddam...and last i checked al qaeda has mostly saudis, taliban, and some pakistanis....not iraqis...let`s not demonize iraq when plenty of america`s ``allies`` are bigger demons as far as the world`s immediate security is concerned....(i don`t mean to defend saddam, but merely point out the stupidity bush is about to get himself into)....

PAKI PATRIOT

``Dr. Hoodbhoy is an intelligent man. And since he is sitting in Pakistan, even though he could be sitting anywhere in the world, one would have to agree that he is perhaps more of a patriot than all of us expatriates``

That is the opening remark by the field marshal. I have seen that often from ylh and a host of other pakistanis when they post about hoodhboy, asma jahangir and the like. It appears that to be a patriot is something supreme in pakistan, and any criticism of pakistan amounts to being a traitor.

The above is something new for a citizen of a modern nation state. Well then again, pakistan is an islamic country, and any criticism of the book is blasphemy. Naturally, the ilks of romair and ylj extrapolate the book to the military and what ever that is left of the country to implicate any one who criticises it as a traitor.

People of pakistan, the so called educated one wants a moderate pakistan, and it is an impossiblity when one realises that the western educated ones like the ylh are obcessed with patriotism.

Seachers

We gave our dogs a button to sniff,
or a tissue, and they bounded off
confident in their training,
in the power of their senses
to recreate the body,

but after eighteen hours in rubble
where even steel was pulverized
they curled on themselves
and stared at up at us
and in their soft huge eyes
we saw mirrored the longing for death:

then we had to beg a stranger
to be a victim and crouch
behind a girder, and the dogs
discover him and tug him
proudly, with suppressed yaps,
back to Command and the rows
of empty triage tables.

But who will hide from us?
Who will keep digging for us
here in the cloud of ashes?

-D. Nurkse

Why does fk write like progressive?

FK: Who is Hussain Nasr? Thanks.

pipelines or no pipelines -- despite my harsh criticism of GW`s stupidity on Iraq -- I do agree with Dr. Hoodbhoy 100% that -- the crowning moment of Bush presidency indeed -- is, was and will remain -- when exactly a year ago TODAY on 9/11 -- he picked up the gauntlet thrown by the Buddha-bashing, woman-beating, museum-vandalizing, bearded bullies of Islamist extremism -- and smashed their heads in Afghanistan for all times to come.

The men, WOMEN AND CHILDREN of Afghanistan -- will always remain indebted to the Neophyte for liberating them from a tyranny that if left to the so-called Umma to remedy -- would have been left wallowing in filth -- unremedied for centuries to come.

hasan

The failed scientist is again trying to reiterate his perverted (munafique) worldview. What he has failed to grasp is that an academic paper from the farangi madressas may get him employment but never a place among the learned.

A phone call to Dr. Hussein Nasr might cure this perversion....of course, only if he seeks it.

It is time CHOWK dumped him or rather dumped on him.
____________________________________________________________
Osama bin Laden - The Forbidden Truth

by Firoz Osman
It is becoming more apparent that the war in Afghanistan has nothing to do with terrorism, Osama bin Laden, the Taliban or the World Trade Centre. Realpolitik, the need and greed for oil and gas are, once again, the source of misery and tragedy. This time it is in Central Asia, just as it was in Iraq.

In a book entitled “Unholy Wars”, ABC news correspondent John K Cooley reveals United States and multi-national oil companies intentions to establish pipelines to route the oil and natural gas of Central Asia and the Caspian Basin to the West. To this end the aims of the generals of the Pakistani ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence) and their American counterparts, the CIA, converged. They saw in the Taliban the means by which they could achieve their objectives.

In 1993, Pakistan and Turkmenistan had signed an agreement to jointly develop their energy resources and build a pipeline between the two countries. UNOCAL, based in California, signed a protocol with the Turkmen government to explore the feasibility of building this pipeline. The one-year study cost $10 million for a huge energy project worth $18 billion, to transport Turkmen oil and gas by pipeline to the Indian Ocean. This trade and energy would run through Pakistan, America`s ally, rather than through Iran, her adversary ever since the overthrow of the Shah in 1979. This will also bypass Iranian ambitions to channel Turkmen energy.

A further objective of both the Taliban and Pakistan is the recovery of natural gas from northern Afghanistan`s Shibergan province, pumped northward to Russia through Uzbekistan. Afghan estimates of the resources in the Shibergan gas fields run to 1,100 billion cubic meters. Export of the gas continued throughout the 1979-89 war, despite periodic sabotage orchestrated by the CIA and ISI.

Corroborating Cooley`s findings, a book has just appeared in Paris entitled ‘Bin Laden, La Verite Interdite` (Bin Laden, the Forbidden Truth). The book claims that the Bush administration held extensive talks with the Taliban regime from February to August 2001 with the aim of securing control over the vast oil and gas reserves in Central Asia through the construction of an oil pipeline from the rich oil fields in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakstan, to Afghanistan, Pakistan and onto the Indian Ocean.

The authors, Jean Charles Brisard and Guiliaume Dasquie, with long experience in intelligence analysis allege that if the Taliban had facilitated the construction of the pipeline and US control over Central Asian oil and gas reserves, the latter would have paved the way for economic assistance to, and political recognition of, the Taliban. Taliban`s unwillingness to accept US conditions frustrated the Americans. According to co-author Jean Charles Brisard,`` At one moment during the negotiations the US representatives told the Taliban,` either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.```

It is well established that the Bush administration, and the President Bush`s family in particular, have a strong oil background with close oil corporate links. Vice-president Dick Cheney was until the end of 2000, president of Halliburton, a company that provides services for the oil industry. National Security Advisor, Condoleeza Rice was a manager for Chevron between 1991 and 2000, while Commerce Secretary Donald Evans and Energy Secretary Stanley Abraham worked for oil giant, Tom Brown.

As John Pilger asserted, the Taliban were trained and supported by the CIA and SAS, agencies of the US and Britain. Soon after their take over of Kabul in 1996, their leaders were entertained by the executives of Unocal Oil Company in Houston, Texas. With secret US government approval, the company offered them a generous cut of the profits of the oil and gas pumped through the pipeline that the Americans wanted to build from Soviet Central Asia through Afghanistan. A US diplomat said: `The Taliban will probably develop like the Saudis did.` He explained that `` Afghanistan will become a US oil colony; there would be huge profits for the West, no democracy and the legal persecution of women. We can live with that,`` he said.

Although the deal fell through, it still remains an urgent priority of the administration of George W Bush. The Caspian Basin has the greatest source of untapped fossil fuel on earth and enough, according to one estimate, to meet the US`s voracious energy needs for generations. Only if the pipeline runs through Afghanistan can the US hope to control it. So, not surprisingly, US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, is now referring to “ moderate`` Taliban, who will join a US-sponsored `` loose federation`` to run Afghanistan. The `` war on terrorism`` is a cover for this. A means of achieving strategic aims that lie behind the flag-waving facade.

If the allegations and arguments contained in ` Bin Laden, The Forbidden Truth` and `Unholy Wars` are true, it raises some fundamental questions about he US bombing of Afghanistan, and indeed, about the 11 September tragedy itself. Is oil the ulterior motive, the hidden agenda, behind the assault upon Afghanistan? Is the attack a vile attempt to gain control of the country and establish a pliant regime in Kabul, which will enable Washington to extend its tentacles over Central Asia and its oil wealth?

The world has the right to know the truth - for the sake of the innocent people who are being slaughtered in Afghanistan, and indeed, for the sake of the thousands who were killed in New York and Washington on 11 September.

(Mr. Firoz Osman is Secretary of the Media Review Network, which is an advocacy group based in Pretoria, South Africa.)

Romair
you are partially correct about Dr. Hoodboy, he is a critic and we need critics who are constructive - but he is also an advocate, a religious zealot.
No piece by Dr. Hoodboy goes without the exhortation to move towards secular humanism. Like so many in Pakistan and India, Dr. Hoodboy does not care to discern between ``secularization``, a process of reordering of values, enabling social transformation, from ``secularism``, a political and social ideology bent upon profanation, the denial of space to religion in culture and conscience.
Secularization is the scientification of society, it is the making of scientific method, the