Dissolving Exclamations

Temporal:

your writings above are a conclave of dervishes whirling around 9/11 to pay a very just homage to those who died. human loss is human loss, be it you, me or them

salam alaykum. Nawed

Prem..
good points. of course none of this relates to your t. bhai`s work, and yes, he is a sensitive man...i guess my silly analogy was in response to a particular whiner`s accusation about the sensitive man`s whining.

History is recreated not to open people`s eyes, but to keep them firmly and securely shut...true, and yes I do know this very well, especially studying history here in the US and in Pakistan...but just because there are those who would rather we keep our eyes shut, doesn`t mean that we do...both of which t. expresses in the last lines of his poem. There are multiple versions of history, and herstory, and I think you know this better than most as well :)

re: noor # 32

``don`t you think it`s important to remember, note the water level, the dangers of a bridge collapsing prior to building a bridge? ``

ana, there is but one problem with all this water-works engineering: people prefer to look back and see sparkling wine where there was nothing but mud, and muddy water where there was sparkling wine.

History would teach us if we were open to facts. But, as you might know better than most, history is re-created not to open people`s eyes, but to keep them firmly and securely shut.

None of this relates to t bhai`s work here. He is a man with a golden heart, a sensitive man who feels the pain as he naturally should. But he is not a historian, and thank God for that.

Cheers.

Samina, #28
:)

Sameer, #27
Thank you for your attempted `reasoning` behind hamid`s reasoning. I don`t recall having a problem with how he feels about Muslims. I was trying to understand his distaste for the poem, and his assertion that the praisers of the poem, as well as the poet , himself, were whining. . .and I see that he`s explained himself most eloquently. :). Any further problems I have with his analysis, are my problems to get over. :). As for reading your Punjabi poetry. . .ummm, well, i`m just beginning to understand more of Urdu poetry, I`m going to have heaps of trouble with Punjabi!!!

hamid. . .
I shared your feelings `bout poetry myself once upon a time, and I still do when I read certain poems, so yes, I can relate :). Yes, history is written by the winners, no doubt `bout that, but ji, past history being irrelevant? Indeed, let us remember all these places. . .the victors and the conquered do. . .as for water under the bridge, don`t you think it`s important to remember, note the water level, the dangers of a bridge collapsing prior to building a bridge? :)

DRUMZ: 1) For American Muslims, to become exemplary US citizen - constructive, passionate, law abiding, contributing, patriotic, invoving in mainstram politics etc etc.
2) For Muslim governments to be democratic, responsive, rational, part of world community, intersted in improving living standards and business relationships with rest of the world, abiding by the international codes of morality and law such as not sponsoring any kind of terrorist activities.
3) Protest and fight the way Nelson Mandela fought.
4) Set the priorities in right order. Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir,............education,............social justice,.............plural society order need to be inverted.

Hamid, ana,
Yes, I must agree, a lot of poetry out there is awful....and 99% of 9/11 poems are even worse...but let it be known on record, that the poets and the poems that I like are the exceptional 1%. That is all.

You may continue.
:)

Sameer: ``The reasonable way would have been to do thing to change US policies.``

How would u suggest they shoulda gone about doing this? Ur statement also suggests that US policy makers are reasonable themselves.

ana: ab bhagu! You should have read my Punjabi poetry only.
Everything in the world happens for some reason. However, reason is different than justification. In this case, justification of terrorist act can not be reasoned. Reason works both ways, justification is often an afterthought. One can discuss merits and demerits, rights and wrongs of US policies separately from so-called retributive justice. The terrorist act was well planned and more than 15 Saudis were involved. Many of the people involved in planning and executing the act did it definitely due to belief, religion and ummah (more like jehad against infidel) and not due to wrong US policies. Similarly the monster, Bin Laden, being created by US is not a justification to shift the onus of blame to US. Hitler and Stalin were also god`s creations. How come we do not blame god for holocaust and Stalin purges? The reason is that these people did not act in reasonable way and thus unjustified. The reasonable way would have been to do thing to change US policies. What they did actually hardened US resolve and stands.
That is why hamidm is not happy with Muslims doing least attractive things with most enthusiasm and doing most attractive things least enthusiastically or not doing at all.

noor

........even out of curiosity i don`t read poetry - reading poetry and history is a sheer waste of time ......... poetry is written by smart-posterior folks who are either trying to be cute or think they are too good to write in prose that common folk can understand without having to put in their own punctuation or trying to figure out where one sentence ends and another begins .......... a sheer waste of time, if you ask me ........and that goes for shakespeare and the koran as well ............

........now for history ........ it is written by the winners and the loosers spend their lives whining about it and trying to rewrite it ....... and if we are going to talk about cuba, chile, guatemala, vietnam, cambodia and now iraq, then lets also talk about sind, somnath, egypt, syria, khandaq, iran, iraq, constantinople and mecca .... yes, why not mecca? ........wasn`t that a regime change?.............. heck, it was more than that - it was deity change !

............ so quit whining about the injustices of history - all that is totally irrelevant and water under the bridge .......... simply build a bridge and get over it .........

hamidm...just out of aching curiosity. . .did you read the poem at all?. . .i mean if you did, and it brought you to vent this. . .well. . . . .*sigh*
with your ijazat, if I might add. . .1947, 1971, Deir Yasin, Soweto and Sharpeville, Chile, the disappeared in Argentina, Chechnya, Bosnia, Baghdad, Gujrat, Ramallah, the camps at Sab`r and Shattila, Khmer Rouge, Rwanda, the Armenian Genocide, Auschwitz, September 11th 2001, and yes even our own jeevay jeevay Pakistan, and countless others have everything to do with what happens when power is used to suit selfish and evil purposes, rather than being instrumental in providing. .er. .Abdul with an outhouse (unless Abdul chooses not to have one, that is.). . .who is this whining, and taking responsibility addressed to? *looks around*
and sometimes i wonder if deodorant is not more harmful than going without it. . .but fikr not, I do take responsibility for submitting myself to potentially harmful chemicals if for nothing else :)

....... now i get it ! ......... richard pearl and a bad chilean poet are responsible for sept 11 and not the fifteen saudis and four saudi-wannabes .......... subhanallah! .... what tripe and kaka! ...... the fact of the matter is that the third-world types in general, and the ummah in particular, cannot face up to the fact that they themselves are responsible for the fact that they continue to live in misery and filth and have their goats for tent-mates.......... instead they want to crawl out of their tents and jugghis and the tear down the shining towers that they cannot build ............. 47 and deir yasin and soweto have nothing to do with the fact that abdul still does not have an outhouse and has not been exposed to deodrant ! ............ get a life, take a bath, stop whining and take some responsibility for your miserable lives .............

Temporal,
Some strong moments here! Nice work!

lagta hai my last post was gobbled up. . . am trying to figure this out. . .oh well, i will not repeat myself. and besides t. has responded (i think) to the `cheap and vulgar` accusation, so I shall refrain from `sanctimonious` drivel. *all heave a sigh of relief*
But. . .*they heaved too soon, did they?*
I had asked a question about why, when someone writes something that DOES honor the dead by writing about the dangers to our humanity: this blinding, extreme allegiance to ideologies and retributive justice, when someone in their writing makes appeals for Justice, and love, why must they be classified as subversives. . .but then I remembered something said in church last night. . .something about how those of us who seek peace without armaments, bombs and airplanes, and those of us who Love will always be vilified and thought of as outsiders and subversives, and I thought of something I read by one of my favorite writers days before yesterday`s commemoration, and I decided the question was in vain. Peace!

ferozk #10, dost-mittar #14

the holocausts mentioned were by no means a comprehensive list...but you are right dost in pointing out my lapse viz the sep 11, 1973 chile interference by the US

...on another board feroze you mentioned four names...but you forgot to mention a major culprit richard perle (read this sigalph -da)


Mr Richard Perle is chairman of the United States Defense Policy Board which is tasked to “provide the Secretary of Defense…with independent, informed advice and opinion concerning major matters of defense policy.”

Mr Perle is also CEO of Hollinger Digital, Inc, which controls the Jerusalem Post of which he is a director. The Chairman of Hollinger International is Lord Black, who owns London’s Tel Aviv Times (formerly the Daily Telegraph). In August 2000 Hollinger International invested an undisclosed amount in Onset Technology of Santa Cruz, California. Mr Perle is on the board of directors of Onset Technology which was founded in 1997 by Mr Gadi Mazor, a former (and highly intelligent) member of the Israeli Defence Force. Onset has a high profile presence at the US Force Information Technology Conference being held this week in Alabama. One purpose of the IT exhibition is to attract orders from the USAF for military equipment. Onset Technology states it is “the world’s leading provider of message conversion technology.”

Mr Perle is not an American public servant. He is not a paid employee of the US government, although the Defense Policy Board has become a most important advisory element to the White House, via Mr Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary. Mr Perle has an office and staff in the Pentagon and draws expenses for his activities but does not need a government salary because he has many other sources of income. Mr Perle was from 1981 to 1988 assistant secretary for International Security Policy in the Defense Department, having previously been employed by Democrat Senator ‘Scoop’ Jackson, for whom he drafted legislation linking US-Russian (then Soviet) trade arrangements with relaxation on emigration of Soviet citizens to Israel. Following his period with Senator Jackson (“the Senator for Boeing”) he was employed by the Israeli military manufacturer, Soltam.

rest at:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_28-8-2002_pg3_2

rgds,

t

Well written.

dost-mittar: To classify or not to classify human tragedies? Whether it is done or not done, nothing should be taken away from right of the families, friends, communities and nations to remember their innocent victims. Each family,......nation remembers in their own tradition, culture, affordability and influence. A hundred years ago none of this would have been discussed because of the limitations of media, communications and the ease of diffusion of immediate effects. We remembered them in our traditional and cultural way and material abundance/ technical superiority related jealousy of have-nots is definitely playing some role in diluting the remembrance through classifying. However, same can be seen as attempt to enhance the remembrance of other tragedies - tragedies that could not be highlighted due to scarcity of wealth and inferior technology.

Should affluence matter in remembrance? Whether liked or not, it will as it does in all other spheres of life. In Pakistan or India, rich people marry off their children with much more fanfare. Why should it bother anybody or nation if we (Americans) can afford to remember the way we remembered.
A variety of logics are applied to remember the tragedies. Sometime logic of one group does not make sense to another. Look at Jesus crucifixtion, the most remebered tragedy in the world really crucified three people 2000 years ago. The Hussain-Yazid war at Karbala killed perhaps 100 people altogether from both sides but remembered among Muslims. The May day killed, I believe 6 workers in Chicago and it was remembered by communists all over the world. There are certain defining tragedies and 911 is unfolding as one.

How can you pick some tragedies more importance over other in remembrance is kind of crazy affair. Natural disasters, epidemics, wars, famines, native American decimation, Stalin purges, holocaust,...........is perhaps a simple order based on the number of victims. If logic is changed to the percent of victims of a particular group of people, then the order changes to native Americans , Jews, Cambodians, Armenians. One can keep on applying different logics and keep changing the order. Above all, marking the first year (or soyum, chehlum ) is more important when it comes to remembrance and let it stay this way. Let`s not dilute 911 on its first year remembrance!