Bitter, Not Sweet

Karakoram #33

``Pakistan is getting dollars now and some news report mentioned that they may get waivers to get F-16s and arms supplies again and they`re even building their own submarines now. whats the big deal ? ``

No big deal. If you haven`t noticed, this article complains about lack of US empathy for Pakistan`s `sacrifices`. Receiving dollars and F-16s instead of being bombed for aiding and abetting Bin Laden and his supporters is no sacrifice.

I too donot understand the intent of your replies to me. I suggest you read the article before replying to posts.

shankar:
[The difference between him & you is-- he uses ``abusive`` acronyms , whereas you quote Ghalib, when you are angry.]
I have written about 1300 posts on chowk. I used mf once, bc three times and ah 8 times. Does it make my style of using abusive acronyms? For a person like Zia, no acronym is enough for a concerned Pakistani. I lived through his era and witnessed the society turned to dark ages. He is a person most responsible for the mess Karachi finds itslef now.
Stuka: I have served Pakistan but did not put it on my resume here at chowk. You are right though. I came here as a self-sufficient student and single with not a single family member to stop me from detaching myself completely from my culture and homeland. I made a conscious decision not to do it. Actually, I read and learned more about my culture and homeland here than in Pakistan without ever dating a Pakistani girl, without ever living in a Pakistani or Punjabi family atmosphere.
I do get pissed, like any normal human being, when I see our rulers anxious to buy expensive F-16s while standard of living is declining due to poor economy, high birthrate and inflation. The best defense Pakistan has is better living standards, better education, low birthrate, growing economy, democracy, just and plural society and not how many F-16s we have or ummah shummah business. Yugoslavia did not have shortage of defense equipment when it started to fall apart. Soviet Union had thousands of nuclear warheads but could not stop tiny republics like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to go their own way. Even 100 F-16s can not stop what has been happening to Karachi - courtesy of Zia Ul Haq.

hellOo bina,

hey i live 5 mins away from tht shoot out place ..
so i wonder dose tht make our place 2 mins away from each other
or 8 ??
hehe

anyways ,, worries apart .. but arent we all are better off then from 3 years from now ?? if you have any dobuts read articles here on chowk some 3 years back how lost we were how degected and traped we feel
and arent we are a bit more hopefull now ?? ..

hopefull that we might be able to make it this time ..
maybe imran khan come up in parliment somehow .
and even though if he wont be able to get prime minstership
maybe he could pose as a better oposition tht all democracies needs
to keep the check on goverment and not to opose just to sake
of oposing to further one`s own intrests .. like we use to have in
past ..

i am just putting it a question to chowk readers too ..
arent we are more hopefull now then we were say 3 years back ..
or atleast we see a ray of hope tht it might work this time..

as quoting from one of zeenath jahan`s article ..

``The Magician had left Hope to keep her company. Hope is always the last to leave a Dreamer, for all dreams are woven on Hope`s loom.

The girl still dreams her dreams. Hope nudges her when she is sad and so, sleeping in the arms of Hope she dreams quiet, happy dreams, while waiting for the Magician to return. For she knows he will return one day, Hope told her so! ``


so i am just happy to have hope once again .. as atleast i can dream of better future possible now ...

arent you ?

More appreciation for Pakistanis in US:

3 Men Detained in Security Check in Florida

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Threat-Florida.html

[quote]
The official identified the men`s nationalities as Jordanian, Iranian and Pakistani, and said at least two are naturalized citizens.
[end-quote]

All this talk about Karachi being a new Kabul is utter tripe. There is as much reason to believe that incidents such as these are the death throes of the extremists, rather than evident od a new theatre of their operations. Take your pick!
-------------
It`s absolutely correct the problem lies with us not mourning our own dead. After the US Consulate/Frere Hall blast, police actually picked up family members of the five ill-fated female victims for interrogation. And far from seeing some sort of monument erected in memory of all those victims, Frere Hall park, where hundreds would descend daily for a bit of refuge from the city, has been closed to the public since that fateful day three months ago-- apparently it poses a security threat to Uncle Sam`s interests across the street!
So really, let`s stop this whinning already!
----------------------
Nostalgic Karachiites, I`ve posted some pictures of Frere Hall on www.groups.msn. group name is KarachiParks. Enjoy!

India isolated in the world commuity over kashmir - Kofi Annan says international community has a role in captive Kashmir`s future. Indians express disappointment with US - All the while Pervaiz Musharraf gets a standing ovation at HArvard, invitations to speak at American think tanks and media outlets -
Asia Times online says
tsk, tsk, tsk!!

Romair:

``Just mind your own business and let them mind their own business. They are not abusing you, why are you abusing them? ``

I give gaalis to India sometimes. Not on Chowk but in the company of friends. A friend I am close to calles me a traitor. Some friends think I have become too American because I live here and give gaalis to India. But, I give gaalis because I care. Do I give gaalis to the corrupt government of Bangladesh? Or Libeeria? No. I simply don`t care about those countries.

Whereas your point about the ones who stay in Pakistan is well taken, the expatriates who give galis are the ones who care. The ones who don`t, the ones with supreme indifference towards their country, they are the ones who don`t care. If Sammer didn`t come to Chowk, disaccoiated himself from Pakistan, didn`t give a sh1t if people lived or died there, didn`t care if the country developed or didn`t, then yes you could say he does not care.

All of us, who come to this website, read what others have to say, from Islamists to Hindutvawadis to secularists, fanatics (of the religious as well as the secular type) and moderstes, we ALL care. We may disagree, we may be called names, but we are not indifferent to our respective countries and cultures.

Indifference is a bigger enemy than love or hate.

I really enjoyed reading this.
America armed the jihadis, pakistan trained them. According to some accounts america helped the taliban to power, pakistan sustained them there. America is attacked by the jihadis and the world is aghast. Pakistan is taken over by jihadi violence and the world stands mute. Except for america which appreciates pak sacrifice and makes sure pak stays solvent and is headed by a good leader. So all is not lost.
Think of how an attack on a rich person makes it to the front pages while violence in the slums or innercity hardly gets a mention. It`s mirrored in the geopolitical realm too.
Slightly off-topic, i have been wondering why Osama chose to attack america instead of saudia if his real complaint is with the sauds. Only thing that makes sense is that he was reaching out to the ummah, trying to coalesce them. Such a brilliant strategist, how could he have been such a fool? Iraq is about to be attacked and qatar will be the launching pad. What ummah?

Sadna: Pakistan is getting dollars now and some news report mentioned that they may get waivers to get F-16s and arms supplies again and they`re even building their own submarines now. whats the big deal ? Money could be better spent on other stuff, hopefully Pakistan is getting a good deal and improving its economy in the process. I know they`re planning to build and sell submarines in the future.
As far as the US and the 1980`s go, they were short-sighted then and hopefully will not be short-sighted now. Thats what Pakistan keeps telling the US: ensure that Afghanistan is not left to the warring groups again, otherwise it can be used by the al-qaeda or anyone as their base. If the al-qaeda was focused on attacking china or someone else and not the US, the US would not give a rats ass about afghanistan. the fact that their target is the US, America needs to take care of business there because its in their interest- as simple as that.
I`m not sure if we`re talking about the same things, i have that issue with you most of the time.

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Romair,

{{go stand at the border and risk your life to protect Karachi against an Indian attack.}}

Whatever issues Sameer & you disagree upon are between the two of you....until you drag India into it.

So let me poke my nose in this & tell you that you are a bigot...you have demonstrated just as much bigotry, in the past, as you have accused Sameer of. The difference between him & you is-- he uses ``abusive`` acronyms , whereas you quote Ghalib, when you are angry. If you believe that that gives you some kind of moral superiority, or gives your biggotted beliefs greater validity, think again.

The Webster dictionary meaning of ``bigot`` is a person who holds blindly or intolerantly to a particular opinion. Yes yes, you are very tolerant. You have never been disrespectful or profane towards any religion, person or country. I cant accuse you of that. You are also open to criticism, lord knows you have a ton of critics on this site.

However, you hold certain beliefs as gospel truth ``blindly``. You argue their merit very well...& quote ``experts``, whose opinions matches yours. You also leave enough ``wriggle room`` to slip out, when you are cornered & huffily & defiantly proclaim ``where have I ever said that?!`` That makes you an extremely good debator & spin doctor.

Psychiatrists & trial lawyers sometimes needle the patient (or witness) to lose their cool to get their true feelings out. When a person gets emotionally charged, their deepest resentments (which they hold as gospel truth), come spewing out.. That famous hollywood line ``you cant handle the truth!`` is an example of what i`m trying to say. HOW a person spews out his ``truth`` is LESS important than WHAT his ``truth`` is.

Here are some of the ``truths`` I believe, you believe as dear. Not only that, I think your precious Pakistani military believes that, as well...

1)India is out to destroy Pakistan. They have never accepted Pakistan`s existence & wont rest until it is reabsorbed or made into another Afghanistan.

2)Indians are generally ``OK`` human beings...you can do ``business`` with them & watch their rotten movies...; but when it comes to Kashmir, they lose all logic & moral values & become oppressors & hegemons (even the most ``moderate`` Indian loses him/herself).

3)Its not possible to change the Indian mindset about Kashmir . The only way to make them give up their sins is to keep on provoking them. Use every means, fair & fowl, to bring them to the negotiating table. Thats why the war of a 1000 cuts is RIGHT, holy & necessary.

4)Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir is right, moral & necessary. Maybe, strategically, with 20-20 hindsight, Pakistan has made some mistakes in implementing its Kashmir policy. But that does`nt mean Pakistan should give up what she thinks is right & just & moral. Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. Ulitmately, Allah is on the side of Pakistan (ergo on the side of the ``true`` Kashmiri patriots). So, sooner or later, the inevitable WILL happen: Allah`s law will prevail & the oppressors (read Indians) will be vanquished. ``Hum bhi dhekenge!``

5) There is a HUGE difference between ``terrorists`` who try to kill Mushy or destroy Pakistan`s true stance of a country that stands up to terrorism; & those who kill the Indian oppressors for their terrible terrorism in Kashmir. The former are misguided bigots, whereas the latter are ``freedom fighters``, the true soldiers of God.

I can go on & on..but I hope you get the picture...
In your defense, however, I must admit that bigotry exists ( to a larger or smaller extent) in EVERY human being. But, remember, when you point a finger at somebody, there are at least 3 fingers pointing back at you..

re air chief marshal romair

``...or go stand at the border and risk your life to protect Karachi against an Indian attack. ``

Sir, India is the least of Karachi`s problem. Karachi needed to be defended against an Army alright: Karachiites will tell you that it was NOT the Indian Army that sowed terror and panic in that fair city twice in the last fifteen years. Those who truly love Karachi, as I do with all my heart, know well that her bitterest enemies are not to the East but to the North. It is not India but the rest of Pakistan that has rapaciously exploited Karachi to the hilt for more than fifty years. And when Karachiites finally vioced concern at their plight, they were meted out the barbarity typical of the bravery showed in Bangladesh and Baluchistan.

Please, save those nonsensical and insincere tears about the plight of Karachi. They sound brazenly phony.

Karakoram #9
I too meant developing countries need to learn to value their own citizens before expecting others to do so.

``US tax payer money was spent in the 1980s to create many Bin Ladens and to fund the holy war against the soviets. Everyone got the dollars then. ``

Its nice to hear someone acknowledge that Pakistan did get remunerated with dollars in the 80s. Add to that eight waivers passed by the US Congress during that period especially to protect Pakistan from sanctions for developing nuclear weapons.

Didn`t US decide to get involved in a holy war which was already started by Pakistan a few years earlier which targetted not only the government in Kabul but also the Soviets in a neighbouring Soviet republic?

Its been said that US also left it to Pakistanis to decide which mujahiddeen groups would get the $2 billion worth of funds and arms they spent on the Afghan war and Pakistan chose to fund and arm the most fundamentalist ones.

And after getting hundreds of millions of dollars of aid, arms and training from the US, enabling them to drive out the Soviets in `89?, the mujahiddeen turned coat and began killing Americans only a couple of years later, perhaps after the Gulf war. For example the first WTC bombing happened in 1993 and must have been planned earlier.

Of course how fundamentalist groups managed to find funds and arms to operate and expand operations to train so many thousands of anti-US terrorists for 13-odd more years after the US left is a question usually unasked and unanswered.

in order to get respect, u have to give it....

a group of Pakistani `jehadis` were screaming ``death to Musharraf, Bush is the enemy, Islam will dominate` etc...on Madison Ave. a few weeks ago while the NYPD stood next by, quiet and calm.

i think it`s time we get our acts together and eliminate these fanatics before complaining about how the US treats us.

i know these people are a minority, but they make more noise and thus get more attention than the so-called moderates who sit and watch.

self criticism is the surest way to jumpstart individual growth, and we Pakistanis need to do that instead of complaining and basking in self pity all the time.

Bina,

the article itself was written very well.

Re: LadyAna

We are not immune to it. We are just numb from it.

Ciao

Bina,

That ordinary Pakistanis are paying for the sins of their leaders, there is no question about it. Have the current leaders learnt a lesson from the past? The answer is resounding no.

This should be a time for introspection for the Pakistani leaders and people. What brought them into this mess? There is a saying in punjabi,

`Mudai sust, gawah chust`.

While the Arab were fanning the fire of anti westernism and militant Islam, their governments, knew what side the bread was buttered and did not let their soil to be used this purpose. What did the Pakistanis do, they became, even more radical, and allowed a whole generation to go waste in their medivial mudrassas. The graduates of these madrassas left their sponsers behind and were on the fore front of this madness.

I dont understand your anger at the American for mourning their loss. What is stopping, you from going to mosque and doing the same for your dead country men and women. There were a lot of Pakistanis who died in WTC. I have not heard or seen any news item lementing the loss of those lives.