Bitter, Not Sweet

Who ever told you CNN was a news channel?

Ref AmericanExpress #88
[Who killed Sardar Patel ..Non Muslim]
Are there Muslim heart attacks and non-Muslim heart attacks?
New discovery. You should write it up in the Madrassah Journal of Medicine.

Ref AmericanExpress #88
[Who killed GANDHI ..non muslim(GODSE)]
Who killed Liaquat Ali Khan?
Who killed Sheikh Mujibur Rahman?

Ref Fuk`em Hakim #91
[So U c`dn`t login during last vacation. Thank god for small mercies. U c`dn`t keep away this time c`d U? U call that a vacation, Soon-A-Corpse-to-be?]
What language is this, Urdu?

HaramiU
So U c`dn`t login during last vacation. Thank god for small mercies. U c`dn`t keep away this time c`d U? U call that a vacation, Soon-A-Corpse-to-be?

#87 Camel Express

Who spouts venom on Chowk?
Who cannot focus on issues?
Who cannot jettison his baggage?

For everything else there is the normal world.

Rsridhar #73:

You sound very frustrated, yet impotent. Must be a very distressing feeling. Try not to get too worked up... what the hell ! pop a vein.. I really don`t give a darn.

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Ref Fuk`em Hakim #81
[Ur on vacation and all U c`d think of doing with Ur time is to hang around here? How much more pathetic can U get Ye Ol`Flatulence?]
When I was on vacation (June 15 - July 14, to be precise), you wouldn`t find a posting by me. I was blissfully away from computers.
You are the pathetic one here. Do you take vacations or do you just go off to a madrassah for indoctrination?
Gas bag!

Ref AmericanExpress #83
[Good thing USA not only accept Indian ,but Pakistani Chinese,all countries High school education..........nincompoop
As to my Madrsah education it was had in DEOBAND ,INDIA ,so why this obsession with Pakistan.GO KILL YOUR P.M. FOR THAT]
Killing? I will leave that to you. I am sure you will find some verses in the Koran or some hadith that justifies it.

HaramiU
Ur on vacation and all U c`d think of doing with Ur time is to hang around here? How much more pathetic can U get Ye Ol`Flatulence?

#72
U need to read up on what happened in `98. Ur woefully ignorant of the taliban. I`m not gonna give U cites verbatim. If U bothered to read what I cited Ud see for Urself.

Re those al-queida operatives arrested which included this
ramzi buls$...; My feeling is that ISI knew all along where they were hiding, etc or even could have arranged the hiding earlier.

When the heat was too much to bear, they had to send a msg to OBL to move out of Pakistan and what better way then to capture one of the important links to make a point.

Another Asia Times article by Raman(I believe) has said that the police fired more rounds than necessary to flush the alqueida elements and the anaylst was of the view that they were trying to scare them off to flee; obviously one was caught and apparently one got away.

This might then lend credence to the notion that ISI is trying to kick OBL from Pakistan because it is too much heat.

Ref Hydra #75
[After corrupt Indian Supreme court gives green light to Hindutva syllabus as Secoooolar ....]
I am sure you would prefer the madrassah education offered in Pakistan. After all, your Indian high school education enabled you only to get professional degrees whereas with the madrassah education you can get 72 houris.

Ref Maasanamuthu #77
So, what are you doing in your spare time, trying to write 108 names for Khushbambika for formal worship?
How about this for a start:
Thunder-thighed One, Praise be to You!
She of the Big Butt, Praise be to You!
PS. How is the color TV with RGY phosphors coming along? Applied for a US patent yet?

arjun_m:
I have a feeling that your mind is made up and whatever i say is not going to matter. Let me try, however. As the taliban made its advancement, both the NA & iran accused the US of helping them. Sources: indian papers & the bbc. Significantly, the US did not deny them or if it did, it did so weakly. Moreover, one of the first foreign dignitaries to pay a visit to a kabul after the taliban takeover was Bill Richardson, fueling suspicions of the kind feroz_k had mentioned elsewhere. To my mind, there`s enough circumstantial evidence of US complicity.

#70 DrDr
Please don`t be hard on the old man.

Ref Fuk`em Hakim #70
[U again? What you bitchin` about? Don`t run away now with your tail tucked between your hind legs!]
I am not running away from anything, you idiot. Except the time I am on vacation, I am here bugging the hell out of pathetic pea-brained idiots like you.
By the way, just got another bunch of books on Indian history. I should be able to quote verbatim on the wonderful behavior of your heroes such as Mahmud of Ghazni.

re:#45 by Karakoram
Mushy is a prized possession of Uncle Sam. After all, Mushy was educated and sanitized in record time. I read a report in intelligence.com (can`t post it here. You have to register) that said he was asked to support US unconditionally post-september 11 or face severe consequences. Our Mushy boy was offering capture of OBL as a sop but nothing short of total co-operation would have satisfied USA. Meanwhile, USA was preparing to strike at various Air Force bases (including some nuclear installations) in Pakistan if mushy said no to the offer. Mushy turned his back on a decade old Taliban policy and changed track faster than a whore can change partners. This saved his A$$ and since then he has been very co-operative on all matters and is a coveted possession of Uncle Sam. Outside, he roars like a lion but within close doors, he is worse than a whore.
Sorry for the long explanaton for the high security risk he is!
Sridhar

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HaramiU
U again? What you bitchin` about? Don`t run away now with your tail tucked between your hind legs!

#44 arjun_m
May I? The Northern Alliance claimed as the Taleban was advancing that the US was providing satellite intelligence. You may be able to find it in the Independent or even the Dawn from 1998. Ahmed Rashid`s book narrates Pakistani official view that the US was in support of the Taleban. You may also read this from the New Republic: http://www.tnr.com/102201/soskis102201.html

Ponder this too: A ragtab bunch of madrassah students were able to control 2/3rds of the country in a week and enter Kabul. How was this possible unless they had satellite intelligence?

Dear Bina:

what a shootout in your neighborhood! -- and what a big al Qaida CATCH for Yours-Faithfully Mr. Musharraf.

now President Mushy can Rig & Rule for EVER -- with the wink from General Bushy -- the selective Vanquisher of selective Evil.

Only -- the ``Tight got Tighter`` -- for poor Pakistani Democracy.

Ref hari #63
[Finally I am happy that dish network has ``sun tv``. Now I can watch some quality tamil sitcoms.]
`Quality` is not generally the word one associates with anything coming out of the art field in Tamil Nadu. Since the Kodambakkam movie crowd has gotten into the production of serials, there ain`t much hope for the Tamil sitcoms. They don`t have the budget for a song-and-dance sequence otherwise the sitcoms would just be miniature Tamil movies. You know what I am talking about: leading ladies whose appearance can be described in polite terms only as `Rubenesque` (about 50 lbs overweight, this being the Sangilikkaruppans` ideal of beauty); mindless drivel passing for plot; love at first sight between boys and girls; etc. I only wish Doctor Artist Leader has the spare time to write the screenplay and dialogues for some of these like he used to for the movies but he is busy tring to parcel out Tamil Nadu between two of his sons before his death. This low drama and high comedy is being played out daily in the streets of Tamil Nadu towns and in the daily papers and constitute far better entertainment than anything you could watch on Sun TV.

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Karakoram #57
``You seem very focussed with your Jihad to paint Pakistan bad``

20 years of Pakistani state policy along with still active public support and you are accusing an anonymous poster of painting Pakistan bad? Your rulers are very lucky people.

``The Americans know how much cooperation the Pakistanis have extended and I as a Pakistani am happy about these extremist elements being captured. ``

Good for you, kindly address your remarks to the author who thinks differently.

Finally I am happy that dish network has ``sun tv``. Now I can watch some quality tamil sitcoms.

From the Baazeecha-e Itfaal Chowk.

````Mushy gets invited to ``Meet the press`` while ABV and the indian group are invited to ``Meet the Foreign investors`` ......Which country do you think comes out on top?
(arjun)

``my yogurt is sweeter than your your yogurt``.

``my artificial kneed PM is better than your fake named President``

`` my dad can beat up your dad``

Ref Brat #56 by Brat on September 13, 2002
[- I don`t see how these accounts explain america helping taliban]
I was trying to explain why you cannot expect cogent, logical arguments from Sangilikkaruppan. He is steeped way too much in Rationalist Thought as propagated by Doctor Artist Leader.
[- but boy was that funny!!! thank you, for quoting that - you should expand on that and write an article -- this is religion in the making in Tamil Nadu - and you are at the right time and place? to report it. It would be a hilarious article!!!!]
Thanks for the encouragement. I would need not just one article but a whole column called `Tales from Tamil Nadu` with weekly reports from Chennai to report the bizarre events that take place here. The material is plentiful. I actually spend more time reading the vernacular newspaper ``Dinamalar`` than reading the English-lanuage newspapers because the funny stuff gets reported in all seriousness in the vernacular press. I haven`t moved on to juicier dailies such as ``Our MGR`` (MGR being a former Chief Minister and a movie actor and who, upon his death, passed on the Chief Ministership to his paramour Jayalalitha), Doctor Artist Leader`s mouthpiece ``Murasoli`` (literally, ``The Drumbeat``, whose owner happens to be Maran, the nephew of the Fund of Compassion and who is now the Minister for Industries in the Central government) and quite a few others. The weirdness in Tamil Nadu is so palpable you can cut it with a knife. Even Sangilikkaruppan knows to what low level the politics of the State has sunk and that is why he usually keeps quiet when I taunt him. Let me simply say that if you understand what is happening in Tamil Nadu, all of you will vote wholeheartedly for Musharraf. And thank Jinnah for taking Pakistan out of this type of weirdness.

Bina # 52

“I want recognition for the fact that my city [Karachi] and my country [Pakistan] and its citizens [Pakistani] are pawns in this game of power politics, played by the same players that were calling the shots thirty years ago. Same game, different name.”

I hope you realize that those players are not Americans or “Zionists” or Indians, but Pakistanis themselves. Pakistan is hardly a victim.

“But take your sanctimonious, self-righteous, moral superiority and try it on someone else. It won`t work on me.”

Sums up my reaction to “victim” Pakistanis perfectly. thanks

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Bart #53

Of course I called for the application of terror to the people connected with its sponsorship in Pakistan. Not all Pakistanis -- but why should you bother with what I said?

Enjoy your liberal dream world in which excesses and mob violence in Gujarat (in 2002) are identical to a 20 year state-funded proxy war. Only a deeply confused person would feel that one excused the other.

Sadna:

You seem very focused with your Jihad to paint Pakistan bad. The Americans know how much cooperation the Pakistanis have extended and I as a Pakistani am happy about these extremist elements being captured. India tried as hard as it could to gyrate its hips do what it could, to tie al-qaeda, kashmir, pakistan into one knot. It does not seem to have worked.

Regarding the kutte ke dum, its all relative, maybe the dum is already seedhi and its the kutta thats bent out of shape.

Peace.

pmishra2
Its like trying to straighten a kutte-ki-dum.

When Imran Khan or any other prominent leader openly supports jihad or Pakistanis protest Pakistan joining the war against Taliban, then violence in Karachi or elsewhere is not considered to be a consequence of such attitudes. Then, too, being a `pawn of the US` is the issue.

Its as if the period between 1989 to 2001 when US took no interest in jihad and Pakistanis were left to make of their jihad strategy what they would never existed.

The sad fact is that many elite Pakistanis consider themselves next-best goras and consider the US govt is more accountable to them than their own.

harimau#54
- I don`t see how these accounts explain america helping taliban
- but boy was that funny!!! thank you, for quoting that - you should expand on that and write an article -- this is religion in the making in Tamil Nadu - and you are at the right time and place? to report it. It would be a hilarious article!!!!
Brat

Ref arjun_m #44
[#36 by soysauce on September 13, 2002
++
According to some accounts america helped the taliban to power,
++
and which accounts would those be? Please dont waste bandwidth by posting shireen mazari`s tripe.]
Please do not expect anything except rote memorization and regurgitation from Inji-kari-kuzhambu. His entire life is one of accepting mindless tripe from the Doctor Artist Leader and using that to justify his entitlements.
Let me give you one example of what passes for logic in the land of the Java code coolies (otherwise called Tamil Nadu). Recently, a temple in Karur, a provincial town, decided to hold a religious celebration to sanctify the temple after major reconstruction. This is pretty much standard procedure. The priests opined that the ceremony should be conducted with Vedic mantras in Sanskrit. Some part of the local population, which saw a political opportunity, demanded that the ceremony be conducted in Tamil. The Shankaracharya of Kanchi and several other religious leaders expressed the opinion that since the temple was originally sanctified under Agama rites using Sanskrit, the ceremony should follow that tradition.
In the event, the Tamil crowd carried the day and the ceremony was performed in Tamil. Doctor Artist Leader, (you must realize that NO ONE in Tamil Nadu gets referred to by his given name and is always respectfully addressed by any number of honorifics; Doctor Artist Leader being the former Chief Minister Karunanidhi {literally, Fund of Compassion}) thundered that the Gods who do not know or understand Tamil do not need to be present in Tamil Nadu and those who believe that Gods do not understand Tamil can leave the state.
The thought that occurred to me was: will the Fund of Compassion and Fount of Rationalist Thought go to the mosque in the Thousand Lights area of Chennai and declare that the Allah who demands to be worshipped in Arabic and not in Tamil should leave Tamil Nadu taking along with him all those who pray in Arabic?
Of course not!
The same thought was echoed by the leader of the Hindu Front in his newspaper interview.
I would like to know that idiot Sangilikkaruppan`s thoughts on the matter.
Before that idiot attempts to rationalize this by saying that there was a difference of opinion amongst Hindus over the language of worship whereas there is none among the Muslims, one must remember that this idiot conveniently forgets the fact that the issue of language in Hindu worship was raised by the Doctor Artist Leader himself during his tenure in office. The man who set the fire is now stoking it.
I do have a suggestion for Sangilikkaruppan. He can become a priest at the Khushbambika Temple in Trichy where he can offer worship in his beloved Tamil language.
Khushbambika is the personification (or, is it deification?) of the movie actress Khushboo. The level of insanity in Tamil Nadu is so high that the locals have erected a temple to Khushboo and are handing out kumkum (vermillion) as prasad to all visitors. The fact that Khushboo is a Muslim girl does not seem to faze these crazies and Sangilikkaruppan is likely to tout this as yet another manifestation of secularism.
Note to non-Tamil Chowkies: The story about the Khushbambika Temple is NOT made up. One does NOT have to make up any stories about Tamil Nadu and its movie mania. There are several TV channels dedicated to showing movies, song sequences from movies, trailers of movies yet to be released, etc. I count Jaya TV (Jayalalitha, the current Chief Minister and former movie actress owns this), K TV (named for Karunanidhi, the Fund of Compassion), Sun TV (owned by Kalanidhi {literally, Fund of Art} Maran, nephew of the Fund of Compassion), Raj TV, Raj TV Digital Service, Vijaya TV, Doordarshan-Chennai and SCV (supposedly this stands for Simran channel, Simran being a Punjabi import to Tamil filmdom). A few days watching TV in Chennai will convince you that the Taliban were on to a good thing when they banned TV in Afghanistan.
Note to Sangilikkaruppan: Just like the Oduvaars sing Thevarams in Shiva temples, may I suggest that you sing ``Ottakatthaik kattikko`` at the Khushbambika Temple?

pmishra2 # 51

Sorry my list of people who call themselves Indian and revel in kicking someone when they are down -- was not exhaustive. Did I leave you out? Oh, please go and call all of your friends and band together to call me an apologist, moron and whatever else. It`ll be quite a refreshing change.

Do you read news exclusively with the lens that - let me see - who can I blame about this? What, when you were a kid someone told you that those big bad Pakistanis have made our lives miserable and unless we do something about them we won`t have peace? Or did they tell you that as a hindu (if you are one) you have to right all the wrong done to Hindus by Muslims?

Talking of people being killed, what about the Muslims that were killed in Gujrat? Who paid or trained those Hindus? (or did you not see pictures of that being splashed across papers?) Oh no, sorry I forgot that was justified -- right? Well perhaps these people in Kashmir feel that what they do is justified -- but because of that you can`t very well choose to point your dirty fingers at any Pakistani that you see. To use a cliche a few are pointing back at you by the same token.

Your personal belief about terror and it`s use to make people realize things is eerily similar to that exercised by Al Qaida -- hold on have I discovered something - it`s not Israelies -- it`s RSS, Hindu Maniacs who are the thugs in the thick with Osama???


Bina #52

Thank you Bina. I````m glad you will not be put by such people. Please do keep writing, I enjoy your articles and interactions immensely.

Brat

HXN:

I will not acknowledge that I ``brought this on myself``. I wasn`t sitting at the table agreeing with the ISI when they decided to bring on their Taliban policy (I must have been all of, oh, say, twelve years old then?). I wasn`t part of the cabal that decided to fund OBL against the Russians. I didn`t go on the streets urging young boys to go over to Kashmir and Afghanistan and give up their lives for someone else`s fight.

Personally I care more about what happens to Sindh (and Pakistan) than Kashmir. Let Kashmir be independent, or part of Pakistan, or part of India, or all of India`s, whatever. I really don`t think my country and its 130+ million citizens should be made to suffer for some generals` misguided visions about Kashmir and Afghanistan.

I want recognition for the fact that my city and my country and its citizens are pawns in this game of power politics, played by the same players that were calling the shots thirty years ago. Same game, different name.

Bitter diatribe? You bet. Applaud me and laugh when I write funny things that point out the idiocy ever present in Pakistani society. Abuse me when I write about the pain and fear that convulses us when another bomb explodes, another Daniel Pearl occurs, another riot kills innocent people. But take your sanctimonious, self-righteous, moral superiority and try it on someone else. It won`t work on me.

Brat #49

Please do stop calling yourself an Indian. How about calling yourself a moron?

Do you read the news at all? how many 100 indians have been killed in J&K in the last two weeks alone? And who is paying and training for these people?

My personal belief is that until members of the Pakistani elite (say for example wife and children of army people) are victims of terror there will be no end to the export of terror. So, while we all deplore killing of civilians, it is good to know that ``freedom struggle`` enjoyed by indians in Jammu and Kashmir has also arrived in Pakistan. Enjoy ! And remember dont rush to judgement: a person commits a suicide bombing only when they are desperate for freedom etc.

hxn #48

I`m ashamed to be called an Indian when I meet people like yourself or arjun_m or previously rsaxena -- who care enough only to point fingers at the Pakistani Chowkies and throw whatever problems that the media cares to flaunt!

What has *your* country done in 50 years? Are you claiming that you`re not a hypocrite? This piece was not about hypocrisy. It was about someone who looks at their home and feels pain, and shares that with you.

Are you saying that the little girl who got shot/unconscious in this episode brought it upon herself? Did the kids who were born in Pakistan/Iraq/Afghanistan bring it upon themselves ? Should they acknoweldge their mistake before your royal highness concedes to shed a tear for them?

Of course no one from *your* part of the world does any injustice? RIGHT?
Brat
ps: What do you really know about Pakistan or Pakistanis?

To bina shah

“Where was the acknowledgement for what we’ve suffered, here in Pakistan?”

so self-righteous. I’ll acknowledge you’ve suffered once you acknowledge that you brought it on yourself.

Pakistani “moderates” like you are the real problem b/c your hypocrisy is what allows terrorism to flourish.

What do I mean? Let’s see.

You’re probably a western educated Pakistani who thinks she believes in democracy and pluralism. Hmm. 1947 pretty much contradicts anything you think you might know about tolerance. And democracy? Most Pakistanis are so obsessed with Kashmir that they’ve sold their country to any and all nutcase jihadis in the hope that these psychos can win you that precious real estate.

…And if these psychos happen to plan one of the most evil acts of mass murder in modern times from your neighborhood? Not your problem, eh?

And if these psychos bring their violence to Karachi? You’re shocked ~ shocked!

And you want recognition for your “suffering”?! explain that to the families of 9-11 victims.

Reap the whirlwind, ms. Shah.

p.s. its a damn shame what pakistan has done to karachi these past 50 yrs

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I work in mid-town manhattan close to the Roosevelt hotel where Musharraf is staying. The security around the hotel needs to be seen to be believed. There are sharp-shooters on top of the Bear Stearns building, pacing up and down overlooking the hotel. The Two adjoining streets have been blocked off and lanes close to the hotel in the other two have been closed. Yesterday after work when the motorcade was returning from the General Assembly, all pedestrians and traffic was stopped... this one bystander casually stepped off the sidewalk and the doors of a suburban burst open and 2 security agents pointed guns at the bystander asking him not to move !

Never like this before.. way too crazy and jumpy.

Contrary to the delusionists (whether in Asia Times or Chowk) there is less and less interest in Pakistan and India. The main action is in Iraq and thats where Bushie is focussed.

A belief that because Musharraf met with media figures, somehow this is wonderful betrays colossal ignorance of history. Useful dictators, whether Marcos or the Shah of Iran have always been courteously treated by their US masters. Often, they have been asked to address media people with their peculiar theories on inapplicability of democracy to their respective countries.

As a resident of the US, let me assure you that deepest suspicion of Pakistan and its progeny is alive and well. The daily reports of massacres by Jihadists in Jammu and Srinagar are also viewed by the reading and thinking public.

The general has been paid for its services and received a nice thank you. Beyond that, the party is pretty much over for him here.

Karakoram #33

``Pakistan is getting dollars now and some news report mentioned that they may get waivers to get F-16s and arms supplies again and they`re even building their own submarines now. whats the big deal ? ``

No big deal. If you haven`t noticed, this article complains about lack of US empathy for Pakistan`s `sacrifices`. Receiving dollars and F-16s instead of being bombed for aiding and abetting Bin Laden and his supporters is no sacrifice.

I too donot understand the intent of your replies to me. I suggest you read the article before replying to posts.

shankar:
[The difference between him & you is-- he uses ``abusive`` acronyms , whereas you quote Ghalib, when you are angry.]
I have written about 1300 posts on chowk. I used mf once, bc three times and ah 8 times. Does it make my style of using abusive acronyms? For a person like Zia, no acronym is enough for a concerned Pakistani. I lived through his era and witnessed the society turned to dark ages. He is a person most responsible for the mess Karachi finds itslef now.
Stuka: I have served Pakistan but did not put it on my resume here at chowk. You are right though. I came here as a self-sufficient student and single with not a single family member to stop me from detaching myself completely from my culture and homeland. I made a conscious decision not to do it. Actually, I read and learned more about my culture and homeland here than in Pakistan without ever dating a Pakistani girl, without ever living in a Pakistani or Punjabi family atmosphere.
I do get pissed, like any normal human being, when I see our rulers anxious to buy expensive F-16s while standard of living is declining due to poor economy, high birthrate and inflation. The best defense Pakistan has is better living standards, better education, low birthrate, growing economy, democracy, just and plural society and not how many F-16s we have or ummah shummah business. Yugoslavia did not have shortage of defense equipment when it started to fall apart. Soviet Union had thousands of nuclear warheads but could not stop tiny republics like Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to go their own way. Even 100 F-16s can not stop what has been happening to Karachi - courtesy of Zia Ul Haq.

hellOo bina,

hey i live 5 mins away from tht shoot out place ..
so i wonder dose tht make our place 2 mins away from each other
or 8 ??
hehe

anyways ,, worries apart .. but arent we all are better off then from 3 years from now ?? if you have any dobuts read articles here on chowk some 3 years back how lost we were how degected and traped we feel
and arent we are a bit more hopefull now ?? ..

hopefull that we might be able to make it this time ..
maybe imran khan come up in parliment somehow .
and even though if he wont be able to get prime minstership
maybe he could pose as a better oposition tht all democracies needs
to keep the check on goverment and not to opose just to sake
of oposing to further one`s own intrests .. like we use to have in
past ..

i am just putting it a question to chowk readers too ..
arent we are more hopefull now then we were say 3 years back ..
or atleast we see a ray of hope tht it might work this time..

as quoting from one of zeenath jahan`s article ..

``The Magician had left Hope to keep her company. Hope is always the last to leave a Dreamer, for all dreams are woven on Hope`s loom.

The girl still dreams her dreams. Hope nudges her when she is sad and so, sleeping in the arms of Hope she dreams quiet, happy dreams, while waiting for the Magician to return. For she knows he will return one day, Hope told her so! ``


so i am just happy to have hope once again .. as atleast i can dream of better future possible now ...

arent you ?

More appreciation for Pakistanis in US:

3 Men Detained in Security Check in Florida

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Threat-Florida.html

[quote]
The official identified the men`s nationalities as Jordanian, Iranian and Pakistani, and said at least two are naturalized citizens.
[end-quote]

All this talk about Karachi being a new Kabul is utter tripe. There is as much reason to believe that incidents such as these are the death throes of the extremists, rather than evident od a new theatre of their operations. Take your pick!
-------------
It`s absolutely correct the problem lies with us not mourning our own dead. After the US Consulate/Frere Hall blast, police actually picked up family members of the five ill-fated female victims for interrogation. And far from seeing some sort of monument erected in memory of all those victims, Frere Hall park, where hundreds would descend daily for a bit of refuge from the city, has been closed to the public since that fateful day three months ago-- apparently it poses a security threat to Uncle Sam`s interests across the street!
So really, let`s stop this whinning already!
----------------------
Nostalgic Karachiites, I`ve posted some pictures of Frere Hall on www.groups.msn. group name is KarachiParks. Enjoy!

India isolated in the world commuity over kashmir - Kofi Annan says international community has a role in captive Kashmir`s future. Indians express disappointment with US - All the while Pervaiz Musharraf gets a standing ovation at HArvard, invitations to speak at American think tanks and media outlets -
Asia Times online says
tsk, tsk, tsk!!

Romair:

``Just mind your own business and let them mind their own business. They are not abusing you, why are you abusing them? ``

I give gaalis to India sometimes. Not on Chowk but in the company of friends. A friend I am close to calles me a traitor. Some friends think I have become too American because I live here and give gaalis to India. But, I give gaalis because I care. Do I give gaalis to the corrupt government of Bangladesh? Or Libeeria? No. I simply don`t care about those countries.

Whereas your point about the ones who stay in Pakistan is well taken, the expatriates who give galis are the ones who care. The ones who don`t, the ones with supreme indifference towards their country, they are the ones who don`t care. If Sammer didn`t come to Chowk, disaccoiated himself from Pakistan, didn`t give a sh1t if people lived or died there, didn`t care if the country developed or didn`t, then yes you could say he does not care.

All of us, who come to this website, read what others have to say, from Islamists to Hindutvawadis to secularists, fanatics (of the religious as well as the secular type) and moderstes, we ALL care. We may disagree, we may be called names, but we are not indifferent to our respective countries and cultures.

Indifference is a bigger enemy than love or hate.

I really enjoyed reading this.
America armed the jihadis, pakistan trained them. According to some accounts america helped the taliban to power, pakistan sustained them there. America is attacked by the jihadis and the world is aghast. Pakistan is taken over by jihadi violence and the world stands mute. Except for america which appreciates pak sacrifice and makes sure pak stays solvent and is headed by a good leader. So all is not lost.
Think of how an attack on a rich person makes it to the front pages while violence in the slums or innercity hardly gets a mention. It`s mirrored in the geopolitical realm too.
Slightly off-topic, i have been wondering why Osama chose to attack america instead of saudia if his real complaint is with the sauds. Only thing that makes sense is that he was reaching out to the ummah, trying to coalesce them. Such a brilliant strategist, how could he have been such a fool? Iraq is about to be attacked and qatar will be the launching pad. What ummah?

Sadna: Pakistan is getting dollars now and some news report mentioned that they may get waivers to get F-16s and arms supplies again and they`re even building their own submarines now. whats the big deal ? Money could be better spent on other stuff, hopefully Pakistan is getting a good deal and improving its economy in the process. I know they`re planning to build and sell submarines in the future.
As far as the US and the 1980`s go, they were short-sighted then and hopefully will not be short-sighted now. Thats what Pakistan keeps telling the US: ensure that Afghanistan is not left to the warring groups again, otherwise it can be used by the al-qaeda or anyone as their base. If the al-qaeda was focused on attacking china or someone else and not the US, the US would not give a rats ass about afghanistan. the fact that their target is the US, America needs to take care of business there because its in their interest- as simple as that.
I`m not sure if we`re talking about the same things, i have that issue with you most of the time.

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Romair,

{{go stand at the border and risk your life to protect Karachi against an Indian attack.}}

Whatever issues Sameer & you disagree upon are between the two of you....until you drag India into it.

So let me poke my nose in this & tell you that you are a bigot...you have demonstrated just as much bigotry, in the past, as you have accused Sameer of. The difference between him & you is-- he uses ``abusive`` acronyms , whereas you quote Ghalib, when you are angry. If you believe that that gives you some kind of moral superiority, or gives your biggotted beliefs greater validity, think again.

The Webster dictionary meaning of ``bigot`` is a person who holds blindly or intolerantly to a particular opinion. Yes yes, you are very tolerant. You have never been disrespectful or profane towards any religion, person or country. I cant accuse you of that. You are also open to criticism, lord knows you have a ton of critics on this site.

However, you hold certain beliefs as gospel truth ``blindly``. You argue their merit very well...& quote ``experts``, whose opinions matches yours. You also leave enough ``wriggle room`` to slip out, when you are cornered & huffily & defiantly proclaim ``where have I ever said that?!`` That makes you an extremely good debator & spin doctor.

Psychiatrists & trial lawyers sometimes needle the patient (or witness) to lose their cool to get their true feelings out. When a person gets emotionally charged, their deepest resentments (which they hold as gospel truth), come spewing out.. That famous hollywood line ``you cant handle the truth!`` is an example of what i`m trying to say. HOW a person spews out his ``truth`` is LESS important than WHAT his ``truth`` is.

Here are some of the ``truths`` I believe, you believe as dear. Not only that, I think your precious Pakistani military believes that, as well...

1)India is out to destroy Pakistan. They have never accepted Pakistan`s existence & wont rest until it is reabsorbed or made into another Afghanistan.

2)Indians are generally ``OK`` human beings...you can do ``business`` with them & watch their rotten movies...; but when it comes to Kashmir, they lose all logic & moral values & become oppressors & hegemons (even the most ``moderate`` Indian loses him/herself).

3)Its not possible to change the Indian mindset about Kashmir . The only way to make them give up their sins is to keep on provoking them. Use every means, fair & fowl, to bring them to the negotiating table. Thats why the war of a 1000 cuts is RIGHT, holy & necessary.

4)Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir is right, moral & necessary. Maybe, strategically, with 20-20 hindsight, Pakistan has made some mistakes in implementing its Kashmir policy. But that does`nt mean Pakistan should give up what she thinks is right & just & moral. Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. Ulitmately, Allah is on the side of Pakistan (ergo on the side of the ``true`` Kashmiri patriots). So, sooner or later, the inevitable WILL happen: Allah`s law will prevail & the oppressors (read Indians) will be vanquished. ``Hum bhi dhekenge!``

5) There is a HUGE difference between ``terrorists`` who try to kill Mushy or destroy Pakistan`s true stance of a country that stands up to terrorism; & those who kill the Indian oppressors for their terrible terrorism in Kashmir. The former are misguided bigots, whereas the latter are ``freedom fighters``, the true soldiers of God.

I can go on & on..but I hope you get the picture...
In your defense, however, I must admit that bigotry exists ( to a larger or smaller extent) in EVERY human being. But, remember, when you point a finger at somebody, there are at least 3 fingers pointing back at you..

re air chief marshal romair

``...or go stand at the border and risk your life to protect Karachi against an Indian attack. ``

Sir, India is the least of Karachi`s problem. Karachi needed to be defended against an Army alright: Karachiites will tell you that it was NOT the Indian Army that sowed terror and panic in that fair city twice in the last fifteen years. Those who truly love Karachi, as I do with all my heart, know well that her bitterest enemies are not to the East but to the North. It is not India but the rest of Pakistan that has rapaciously exploited Karachi to the hilt for more than fifty years. And when Karachiites finally vioced concern at their plight, they were meted out the barbarity typical of the bravery showed in Bangladesh and Baluchistan.

Please, save those nonsensical and insincere tears about the plight of Karachi. They sound brazenly phony.

Karakoram #9
I too meant developing countries need to learn to value their own citizens before expecting others to do so.

``US tax payer money was spent in the 1980s to create many Bin Ladens and to fund the holy war against the soviets. Everyone got the dollars then. ``

Its nice to hear someone acknowledge that Pakistan did get remunerated with dollars in the 80s. Add to that eight waivers passed by the US Congress during that period especially to protect Pakistan from sanctions for developing nuclear weapons.

Didn`t US decide to get involved in a holy war which was already started by Pakistan a few years earlier which targetted not only the government in Kabul but also the Soviets in a neighbouring Soviet republic?

Its been said that US also left it to Pakistanis to decide which mujahiddeen groups would get the $2 billion worth of funds and arms they spent on the Afghan war and Pakistan chose to fund and arm the most fundamentalist ones.

And after getting hundreds of millions of dollars of aid, arms and training from the US, enabling them to drive out the Soviets in `89?, the mujahiddeen turned coat and began killing Americans only a couple of years later, perhaps after the Gulf war. For example the first WTC bombing happened in 1993 and must have been planned earlier.

Of course how fundamentalist groups managed to find funds and arms to operate and expand operations to train so many thousands of anti-US terrorists for 13-odd more years after the US left is a question usually unasked and unanswered.

in order to get respect, u have to give it....

a group of Pakistani `jehadis` were screaming ``death to Musharraf, Bush is the enemy, Islam will dominate` etc...on Madison Ave. a few weeks ago while the NYPD stood next by, quiet and calm.

i think it`s time we get our acts together and eliminate these fanatics before complaining about how the US treats us.

i know these people are a minority, but they make more noise and thus get more attention than the so-called moderates who sit and watch.

self criticism is the surest way to jumpstart individual growth, and we Pakistanis need to do that instead of complaining and basking in self pity all the time.

Bina,

the article itself was written very well.

Re: LadyAna

We are not immune to it. We are just numb from it.

Ciao

Bina,

That ordinary Pakistanis are paying for the sins of their leaders, there is no question about it. Have the current leaders learnt a lesson from the past? The answer is resounding no.

This should be a time for introspection for the Pakistani leaders and people. What brought them into this mess? There is a saying in punjabi,

`Mudai sust, gawah chust`.

While the Arab were fanning the fire of anti westernism and militant Islam, their governments, knew what side the bread was buttered and did not let their soil to be used this purpose. What did the Pakistanis do, they became, even more radical, and allowed a whole generation to go waste in their medivial mudrassas. The graduates of these madrassas left their sponsers behind and were on the fore front of this madness.

I dont understand your anger at the American for mourning their loss. What is stopping, you from going to mosque and doing the same for your dead country men and women. There were a lot of Pakistanis who died in WTC. I have not heard or seen any news item lementing the loss of those lives.

Ref Analyst of All Things #13
[I have always felt that the people flying the F-16s and protecting Karachi, while risking their lives, making 1/20th the salary that you (and I) make are doing far more for Karachi than you are.]
Is this something like they were doing in the US? You have F-16s patrolling the skies over Karachi to protect against airliners flying into tall buildings?
[go stand at the border and risk your life to protect Karachi against an Indian attack.]
We don`t want Karachi. In fact, we don`t want Pakistan. The more I reflect, the more I agree with that dear boy Yasser Latif Hamdani that Jinnah was the best friend India ever had. I mean, here was a guy who understood perfectly what an Islamist thug would be like and chose to take a very large number of them out of India. How can one be not grateful for that? After seeing exactly what is happening in Pakistan, most Indians (including Advani) are saying: ``There, but for the grace of God, go I``.
[Why don`t you try to reform Islam from the inside, instead of declaring yourself a Buddhist and then hurling abuses at Islam...]
Can you say ``blasphemy``?
[I know judges and soldiers and police officers who are in situations where they can be killed in Pakistan, but that doesn`t stop them from serving their country.]
Particularly, when serving the country means handing out death sentences for blasphemy. This seems to be the current legal trend in Pakistan.

AllahDitta: Drought? What drought? The people here are obsessed with other issues. All you need is resume that states “once served in military” and tell everybody to shut up. The magic stick is risking your life by serving in the armed forces and all past, present and future sins are forgiven. No matter they fail to see sarcasm in ``who cares about Karachi`` from a Karachi-born with part of his skin buried in Karachi. No matter that they have repeatedly used abuse for elected representatives with 2/3 majority, referring to them as ``bari tind and choti tind`` but if another person uses mf, ah and bc for two real and one imaginary well-deserving generals, their patriotism, morality standards and what-not wakes up.
Who has said anything about F-16 pilots or their salaries? But the careless recycling of the same two-pages over and over ignores relevance or irrelevance. It has to be two pages, 10 paragraphs else not worth posting. Why it hurts so much to label Zia and Musharraf something that few others disagree? Is it not true that Zia got 2 squadrons and Mush is asking for 4 squadrons of F-16s? Who were/ are they accountable to, for spending?
The quagmire we are in is primarily of these peoples’ making. The 40 percent of the budget is chewed up every year and 70 percent of the debt is due to military spending and purchases of the past. Yet it is intolerable for resume-waving people to even take any criticism in least word count abbreviations. What would you call a person who takes revenge from employer for suffering humiliation for being fired? Is ah such a bad term for this individual. And what did Zia do to be respected? Serving the nation and Islam in order to make billions for him? If serving and sacrificing once is the only criteria then BB`s father has sacrificed his life - the ultimate sacrifice - and daughter of a shaheed deserves much better respect, much better than Musharraf or Zia.

ummm... I dont remember... I`ve never been good with names... but, I think whoever wrote it died from dehydration a long time ago.

Adnan (or anyone else. . .)
Who wrote those lines you quoted in #22?

For Karachi:

Jo Ubur yuhaan say uthay gaa, woh saaray jahaan peh bursay gaa
Yeh sheh`r humeshaa tursaa hai, yeh sheh`r humeshaa tursay gaa

I don`t understand. What are you trying to say? A four year old child was brutally shot to death practically in front of your house and you are pointing out things about which country has suffered how much? Forget the countries. What did you as a human being do about the child? How can people recover from such shocks so quickly? The first instinct is not to attend to the burials of the innocent or leave the house and help the victims in the next building - ask if they need tea, coffee, food, blankets...but rather log on to the internet to pour forth a diatribe ... against whom? And for what purpose?

How can you see clearly who is to blame, when the tears in the eyes have not dried up yet? Or did you not cry at all?

**I`m sorry, this is brutal what I`ve written, but I mean it...Sitting so far away, I am in shock. How can u be immune?**

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Romair # 13...

I dont disagree with much of your criticism on sameerJB`s post. People who feel that their articulation skills give them the right to cirticise whatever they like can only be put in the category of educated bigots. Plus it is more than valid that a person who has done something to try solve a problem has the right to be its critic. I dont believe that he or anyone of his ilk have even raised a finger to help anyone except their own ........

however, you repeatedly try to acquit the pak army from the ills inflicted on pakistan. An f-16 pilot or a soldier manning his post may not be indicted. But the policies pursued by the army brass have brought nothing but problems for Pakistan. I dont need to reiterate our army`s conduct for the past 50 years. Their crimes are very well known. They have turned pakistan from an state with an army to an army with a state... practially the definition of a banana republic. Whenever the generals have tried to take matters into their own hand, it has back fired onto them. But they never seem to quit making the same mistakes again and again. The army should stick to its job of protecting the country from any aggressor and let the politicians do their job of running the country. Its a very simple matter.

It must refrain from trying to use its military wisdom to solve a nations problem. It will never work.. never has..

Shut up already!
This their party - you can come if you really want to - but don`t expect their gratitude, their affection, their anything - This is about their world, in their play, they play all the major roles, the bit actors are generally grateful for the work - so shut up, already. - Go mouth off about ``soverngty of Parliament`` or ``English democracy`` support the democractic struggle of the heroic tennant farmers taking industrila action against owners and rulers or some such lunacy, get a few lines of mention as the bit player - the review is usually not about bit players. Either way, a little gratitude from the likes of yuo will go a long way.

Romair #13,

That was a brilliant summation; I agree with everything you wrote in that article 100%--even though a lot of the criticism is valid for me too as I am also not living in Pakistan. BUT I really do want to go to Pakistan after finishing my PhD insha Allah and help it and also to live there.

***
Bina,

Nicely written piece as ever. Yet I can`t help thinking that the Americans dont care about the deaths of others--especially Muslims so no matter HOW much Pakistan helps it (which in my opinion is a mistake which we will pay heavily for) in its so-called fight against ``terror`` (read Islam and especially political Islam) we will never get the thanks for it other than occasional lip-service.

The person I feel sorry for is the little girl and her parents.

And I have no sympathy whatsoever with the misguided fanatics who did this shoot-out. What purpose did it serve? How did it help Islam?

***

Ref # 4.. sameerJB

I cant think of one reason, why you always have to bring Islam and muslims in the mess that politicians create. That verse from Iqbal is not meant for zia ul haq or for that matter musharraf. It represents and ideal human bieng according to a faith, that u happen to resent. Islam has been abused by all who have lived in pakistan for 50 years. The leaders have used it to satiate their hunger to play king makers and wht not and the public has used it to vent its fury of despair. Bigorty, intolerence and self righteousness are symptoms of a disease called ``collective frustration``. They have acquired the name of Islam in pakistan.

In your blind appreciation of all that is western, you easily forget that Islam and its empires have provided a stable mode of goverence and social structure to the people of this world for centuries.

Only thing wrong with this era is that muslims never had a chance to evolve to accept challanges of modernity. And that is only because of constant meddelling of those western powers in their affairs since the world war. Why dont they just leave the miserable people of this religion alone. They have installed, nourished and supported the most tyrinical and oppressive regimes in these countries for more than half a century.
(The big bogey man, Osama bin ladin.... was brought into the lime light... none other than the CIA during the afghan war. Saddam was SUPPLIED and encouraged to use chemical weapons in its eight year war against Iran.)

Yes, Imperialism, profanity, decadence, pornography, alcohol, pork, .... are denounced by anything Islamic and for good reasons. I dont believe that any civilization needs the above as its corner stones. (these might be your personal predilictions!!)

As for liberalism, western culture, godless science.... they can be viewed in an skeptical light and can be assimilated to some extent into an Islamic society. But such a transition would take a long time to come about. Specially with people like.. arafat, mubarak, musharraf, various kings of the arab world.. choking the very life out of their subjects.

Romair

Sir Ji

Rabb Tuade Khair kare.

The protector of the Watan is not able to solve the problem of farmers in interior districts who are dying of drought and poverty.
If miltary reposnible for country then they need to take care of people`s problems. Protecting the country not excuse for looting country.

Bina
One must seek answers to your questions with a sincere heart. If helping Afghans is being considered a sacrifice ask the generals who made zillions out of it. Afghans could have been helped by setting up universities , schools and hospitals. Why did that not happen?

You cannot surely lose sight of the puppets that are willing to be played by puppetters for small change, big pocket money and some toys. Do not blame others for what has passed?

Get rid of the puppets and try to be on your own for a change.

Khuda Hafiz

Sameer #4: ``a mf general...ah general...bc general``

One should not use abusive language. You are slowly turning into a fanatic. It is the conflict between the religious fanatics and the fanatics of your variety, that is destroying Pakistan.

``parked facing Mecca. Who cares about Karachi...Don`t we appreciate verses like, ``tu shaheeN hey basaira ker pahaRoN kee chatanuN maiN``? ``

The people who care about Karachi are living in Karachi, trying to do something to solve the problems. Others like yourself (and me, for that matter, though I did serve my country for twelve years) have the luxury of sitting on the sidelines cursing them. Instead of cursing, perhaps you should go to Karachi and help out. I have always felt that the people flying the F-16s and protecting Karachi, while risking their lives, making 1/20th the salary that you (and I) make are doing far more for Karachi than you are. I am not sure why you think you have the moral highground to crticize them. If anything they should be criticizing you, for getting an education at the country`s expense, and then abandoning it.

I would be interested in finding out how long you have ever worked in Pakistan for the government or how long you paid taxes there in a private enterprise. Since I think people like yourself, who don`t do anything, except abuse others for the problems of Pakistan, are infact one of the biggest problems of Pakistan.

How about doing something constructive for a change? Pakistan is, after all, in great need of Physics professionals. Instead of just going on and on with destructive abuse on Islam and anything else that doesn`t suit your fancy, why don`t you go to Karachi, settle down there, and work with the Edhis and the Cowasjees and the Imran Khans and Gen. Sabeehs, or go stand at the border and risk your life to protect Karachi against an Indian attack.

Why don`t you try to reform Islam from the inside, instead of declaring yourself a Buddhist and then hurling abuses at Islam (if you are Buddhist, then just leave Islam alone; who gave you a right to make fun of it, or of Pakistanis who follow it.) Only a sick mind makes fun of other religions. So what if someone will try to kill you if you try to constructively reform Islam. I know judges and soldiers and police officers who are in situations where they can be killed in Pakistan, but that doesn`t stop them from serving their country. Or at the very least, live in Karachi. Only then do you have a right to launch your abuse.

Whether Pakistanis go to Mecca or to anywhere else, what difference does it make to you? You have used that country, and are now living comfortably in the US. At least, have the courtesy of not abusing the religion they follow and the people who are their working for the country.

The more I read habitual critics, specially abusive ones with an axe to grind, who are unwilling to jump into the arean and spend their own time to solve a problem, the more I am begining to realize that they are part of the problem and not part of the solution. Anyone who really loves Pakistan would honestly work for it, in Pakistan. Then, they (like Hoodbhoy) have a right to be habitual critics. Everyone else, in my opinion, is trying to get cheap popularity, at Pakistan`s expense, and trying to turn themselves into a hero. This is what separates the likes of you from the likes of Hoodbhoys, Farzana Varseys and Arundhati Roys. This is also why, while, I don`t agree with much of Hoodbhoy`s criticism, I do respect him greatly. And while the two above-mentioned ladies critize many things in India (occassionally going overboard), I have never seen them criticize and abuse a whole religion or a whole profession or use dirty abusive acronyms for individuals they do not like. And they live in the system they are critical of, and are trying to fix it.

Rest assured, Sameer, a Pakistani F-16 pilot is doing a hell of a lot more for Pakistan than you ever have and will. I know some of them, and they are there in Pakistan, working for their country, dedicated to the core. And they would have the decency to not abuse you or abuse Buddhism. I would take them over someone with your thoughts, any day.

Since you have already disassociated yourself from Pakistan (physically) and Islam (emotionally), perhaps the best thing you could do is to now stop hurling abuses, at the complete group of peole who did honesly serve their country as F-16 pilots or as honest police officers or as honest shopkeepers and want to continue doing so, and at people who do happen to like Islam (like myself). Just mind your own business and let them mind their own business. They are not abusing you, why are you abusing them?

Ever heard the phrase about the chickens coming home to roost?

ferozk im afraid what your saying about khi is crap -- u say u left the city in 1981 -- i suppose that makes u eminently qualified to comment on what the city is like today ! hahhaah

sadna:``Your own taxpayer money was spent from mid 1990s to Oct 2001 to support Bin Laden and Taliban militarily in the war they were fighting. Inspite of this Bin Laden and Taliban got the bombs dropped on them, while the Pakistani government got the dollars. ``

US tax payer money was spent in the 1980s to create many Bin Ladens and to fund the holy war against the soviets. Everyone got the dollars then. The choice for Pakistan this time was too easy: Isolation, bombs and being controlled by freaks and fundamentalism OR dollars, clean-up of terrorist groups, and improved communication with the world.

I do understand your point about mourning your dead though. Not only Pakistan, but most developing countries have less respect for their own citizens and lives. I don`t believe its a cultural or religous trait, its got to do with having a sense of belonging to a community, charity, etc. and that has to be developed.

A friend tells me the whole shootout was beamed live on the new channel GEO started by the Jang group. Welcome to COPS!!

It was not too long ago that kids on their way to Princetons and Harvards were shown in elite schools in Pakistan thumping their chests and claiming Bin Laden was a hero. There is another writeup in the current issue of Time magazine about a teenage Pakistani who talks about the adulation Bin Laden gets in top girls schools in Pakistan. Granted most of these kids will not turn into suicide bombers but why take a chance? The kids with acceptance letters in their drawers will end up wherever they want eventually. This is the perfect time for them to reflect on what a massive responsibility awaits them should they choose to return to their motherlands.

later
-sac

I mourn the tragic loss of the little four-year old girl. Everyone else in this story is yet to deserve sympathy.

1000s of Pakistanis(and their parent organisations in Karachi propagating their anti-West cause without government objections for more than a decade ) didnot believe enough in the US promise of `liberty and justice for all` and preferred an Afghan visa to die for Bin Laden.

Your own taxpayer money was spent from mid 1990s to Oct 2001 to support Bin Laden and Taliban militarily in the war they were fighting. Inspite of this Bin Laden and Taliban got the bombs dropped on them, while the Pakistani government got the dollars.

What sacrifice are you talking of?

You have to learn to mourn your own dead (all of them) before you can expect others to offer condolences.

Congratulations to Chowk staff for giving this website an excellent face-lift. I assume Ginni Dhindsa of Chowk has put in an ungodly amount of time in this.
C.

You sure as hell don`t get to see the truth on CNN :-)
Just the American Version of it.
Packaged and Presented for the American Public...
I often wonder if they really tell the public the truth or just jazz up propaganda sometimes...
Not that I have anything against it.
I try to watch Al - Jazeera or Saudi TV (channel 22 riyadh) or read their website (in english)
http://www.cursor.org/aljazeera.htm
One should actually visit websites run by governments of surrounding arab countries to get a broader perspective..
or perhaps their own version of propaganda...
who knows really...... !

Bina: The blame for our regrets lies right at our own doorstep as ferozk just wrote (post #2). some 20+ years ago, a mf general got 2 squadrons of F-16 for getting us in the mess. This time another ah general is asking for 70, i.e., 4 squadrons for our involvement and next time another bc general will ask for 8 squadrons of F-16s. That is the price we ask and get for our involvement.
Look at the positive side. So many illiterate Pakistani males will end up in heaven plus so many F-16s, parked facing Mecca. Who cares about Karachi? Don`t we appreciate verses like, ``tu shaheeN hey basaira ker pahaRoN kee chatanuN maiN``? The right place for good Muslim aka shaheens is tore bora mountains.
Let`s keep Pakistan as ``Nahi An`il Munkiristan`` and see it spiralling down to dark ages and anarchy. Say no to kafirs, imperialism, western culture, USA, profanity, decadence, pornography, alcohol, pork, liberal education, godless science and technology, shaving legs,............say yes to nothing!

Bina,
Unfortunate as the deaths in karachi and elsewhere in Pakistan as fall out of our alignment (and my blood boils as much as anyone`s on this), you have to consider that the reason condolences may not be forthcoming from world leaders is the fact that we had some part to play in nurturing these terrorist elements when it suited us. That Big Brother did too, is somehting of common knowledge, but the prerogative of power speaks it`s own language. Always has, always will. `tis best we take it all on the chin (lick our wounds?) and live to fight the next day. Expecting shabahshes and complaining when they dont come isn`t going to help our self respect any.
rgds,
PM

Bina

Karachi is a major Afghan city, like Quetta, and it should not come as a shock to you that Karchi had replaced Beruit long time ago as the worst crime/terror ridden city in the world.

What happened in Karachi was the harvest of the last twenty years of intolerance.

Being a Karachite, I left Karachi in 1981 for a very good reason and that reason was reinforced yesterday.

Karachi of the old is dead. The Karachi of today is dying. The new Karachi of tomorrow will be still borned!

The next battle ground in the war on terror will not be Iraq, but Pakistan and Karachi will be the front line of this new war and what happened yesterday, a few minutes from your home, was the first shots of a new battle waiting to be fought!

Ciao

Excuse me, but what`s the point of this article? I can see the anger in it, but it`s rambling without any direction.