Bitter, Not Sweet
Bina Shah September 11, 2002
#1 Posted by Godot on September 11, 2002 7:47:52 pm
Excuse me, but what`s the point of this article? I can see the anger in it, but it`s rambling without any direction.
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#2 Posted by ferozk on September 11, 2002 8:16:23 pm
Bina
Karachi is a major Afghan city, like Quetta, and it should not come as a shock to you that Karchi had replaced Beruit long time ago as the worst crime/terror ridden city in the world.
What happened in Karachi was the harvest of the last twenty years of intolerance.
Being a Karachite, I left Karachi in 1981 for a very good reason and that reason was reinforced yesterday.
Karachi of the old is dead. The Karachi of today is dying. The new Karachi of tomorrow will be still borned!
The next battle ground in the war on terror will not be Iraq, but Pakistan and Karachi will be the front line of this new war and what happened yesterday, a few minutes from your home, was the first shots of a new battle waiting to be fought!
Ciao
Karachi is a major Afghan city, like Quetta, and it should not come as a shock to you that Karchi had replaced Beruit long time ago as the worst crime/terror ridden city in the world.
What happened in Karachi was the harvest of the last twenty years of intolerance.
Being a Karachite, I left Karachi in 1981 for a very good reason and that reason was reinforced yesterday.
Karachi of the old is dead. The Karachi of today is dying. The new Karachi of tomorrow will be still borned!
The next battle ground in the war on terror will not be Iraq, but Pakistan and Karachi will be the front line of this new war and what happened yesterday, a few minutes from your home, was the first shots of a new battle waiting to be fought!
Ciao
#3 Posted by PM on September 11, 2002 8:46:37 pm
Bina,
Unfortunate as the deaths in karachi and elsewhere in Pakistan as fall out of our alignment (and my blood boils as much as anyone`s on this), you have to consider that the reason condolences may not be forthcoming from world leaders is the fact that we had some part to play in nurturing these terrorist elements when it suited us. That Big Brother did too, is somehting of common knowledge, but the prerogative of power speaks it`s own language. Always has, always will. `tis best we take it all on the chin (lick our wounds?) and live to fight the next day. Expecting shabahshes and complaining when they dont come isn`t going to help our self respect any.
rgds,
PM
Unfortunate as the deaths in karachi and elsewhere in Pakistan as fall out of our alignment (and my blood boils as much as anyone`s on this), you have to consider that the reason condolences may not be forthcoming from world leaders is the fact that we had some part to play in nurturing these terrorist elements when it suited us. That Big Brother did too, is somehting of common knowledge, but the prerogative of power speaks it`s own language. Always has, always will. `tis best we take it all on the chin (lick our wounds?) and live to fight the next day. Expecting shabahshes and complaining when they dont come isn`t going to help our self respect any.
rgds,
PM
#4 Posted by SameerJB on September 11, 2002 9:06:10 pm
Bina: The blame for our regrets lies right at our own doorstep as ferozk just wrote (post #2). some 20+ years ago, a mf general got 2 squadrons of F-16 for getting us in the mess. This time another ah general is asking for 70, i.e., 4 squadrons for our involvement and next time another bc general will ask for 8 squadrons of F-16s. That is the price we ask and get for our involvement.
Look at the positive side. So many illiterate Pakistani males will end up in heaven plus so many F-16s, parked facing Mecca. Who cares about Karachi? Don`t we appreciate verses like, ``tu shaheeN hey basaira ker pahaRoN kee chatanuN maiN``? The right place for good Muslim aka shaheens is tore bora mountains.
Let`s keep Pakistan as ``Nahi An`il Munkiristan`` and see it spiralling down to dark ages and anarchy. Say no to kafirs, imperialism, western culture, USA, profanity, decadence, pornography, alcohol, pork, liberal education, godless science and technology, shaving legs,............say yes to nothing!
Look at the positive side. So many illiterate Pakistani males will end up in heaven plus so many F-16s, parked facing Mecca. Who cares about Karachi? Don`t we appreciate verses like, ``tu shaheeN hey basaira ker pahaRoN kee chatanuN maiN``? The right place for good Muslim aka shaheens is tore bora mountains.
Let`s keep Pakistan as ``Nahi An`il Munkiristan`` and see it spiralling down to dark ages and anarchy. Say no to kafirs, imperialism, western culture, USA, profanity, decadence, pornography, alcohol, pork, liberal education, godless science and technology, shaving legs,............say yes to nothing!
#5 Posted by eslurf on September 11, 2002 9:21:04 pm
You sure as hell don`t get to see the truth on CNN :-)
Just the American Version of it.
Packaged and Presented for the American Public...
I often wonder if they really tell the public the truth or just jazz up propaganda sometimes...
Not that I have anything against it.
I try to watch Al - Jazeera or Saudi TV (channel 22 riyadh) or read their website (in english)
http://www.cursor.org/aljazeera.htm
One should actually visit websites run by governments of surrounding arab countries to get a broader perspective..
or perhaps their own version of propaganda...
who knows really...... !
Just the American Version of it.
Packaged and Presented for the American Public...
I often wonder if they really tell the public the truth or just jazz up propaganda sometimes...
Not that I have anything against it.
I try to watch Al - Jazeera or Saudi TV (channel 22 riyadh) or read their website (in english)
http://www.cursor.org/aljazeera.htm
One should actually visit websites run by governments of surrounding arab countries to get a broader perspective..
or perhaps their own version of propaganda...
who knows really...... !
#6 Posted by Cemendtaur on September 11, 2002 10:49:51 pm
Congratulations to Chowk staff for giving this website an excellent face-lift. I assume Ginni Dhindsa of Chowk has put in an ungodly amount of time in this.
C.
C.
#7 Posted by sadna on September 11, 2002 11:07:29 pm
I mourn the tragic loss of the little four-year old girl. Everyone else in this story is yet to deserve sympathy.
1000s of Pakistanis(and their parent organisations in Karachi propagating their anti-West cause without government objections for more than a decade ) didnot believe enough in the US promise of `liberty and justice for all` and preferred an Afghan visa to die for Bin Laden.
Your own taxpayer money was spent from mid 1990s to Oct 2001 to support Bin Laden and Taliban militarily in the war they were fighting. Inspite of this Bin Laden and Taliban got the bombs dropped on them, while the Pakistani government got the dollars.
What sacrifice are you talking of?
You have to learn to mourn your own dead (all of them) before you can expect others to offer condolences.
#9 Posted by sac on September 12, 2002 6:53:09 am
A friend tells me the whole shootout was beamed live on the new channel GEO started by the Jang group. Welcome to COPS!!
It was not too long ago that kids on their way to Princetons and Harvards were shown in elite schools in Pakistan thumping their chests and claiming Bin Laden was a hero. There is another writeup in the current issue of Time magazine about a teenage Pakistani who talks about the adulation Bin Laden gets in top girls schools in Pakistan. Granted most of these kids will not turn into suicide bombers but why take a chance? The kids with acceptance letters in their drawers will end up wherever they want eventually. This is the perfect time for them to reflect on what a massive responsibility awaits them should they choose to return to their motherlands.
later
-sac
It was not too long ago that kids on their way to Princetons and Harvards were shown in elite schools in Pakistan thumping their chests and claiming Bin Laden was a hero. There is another writeup in the current issue of Time magazine about a teenage Pakistani who talks about the adulation Bin Laden gets in top girls schools in Pakistan. Granted most of these kids will not turn into suicide bombers but why take a chance? The kids with acceptance letters in their drawers will end up wherever they want eventually. This is the perfect time for them to reflect on what a massive responsibility awaits them should they choose to return to their motherlands.
later
-sac
#10 Posted by Karakoram on September 12, 2002 6:53:09 am
sadna:``Your own taxpayer money was spent from mid 1990s to Oct 2001 to support Bin Laden and Taliban militarily in the war they were fighting. Inspite of this Bin Laden and Taliban got the bombs dropped on them, while the Pakistani government got the dollars. ``
US tax payer money was spent in the 1980s to create many Bin Ladens and to fund the holy war against the soviets. Everyone got the dollars then. The choice for Pakistan this time was too easy: Isolation, bombs and being controlled by freaks and fundamentalism OR dollars, clean-up of terrorist groups, and improved communication with the world.
I do understand your point about mourning your dead though. Not only Pakistan, but most developing countries have less respect for their own citizens and lives. I don`t believe its a cultural or religous trait, its got to do with having a sense of belonging to a community, charity, etc. and that has to be developed.
US tax payer money was spent in the 1980s to create many Bin Ladens and to fund the holy war against the soviets. Everyone got the dollars then. The choice for Pakistan this time was too easy: Isolation, bombs and being controlled by freaks and fundamentalism OR dollars, clean-up of terrorist groups, and improved communication with the world.
I do understand your point about mourning your dead though. Not only Pakistan, but most developing countries have less respect for their own citizens and lives. I don`t believe its a cultural or religous trait, its got to do with having a sense of belonging to a community, charity, etc. and that has to be developed.
#11 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on September 12, 2002 6:53:09 am
ferozk im afraid what your saying about khi is crap -- u say u left the city in 1981 -- i suppose that makes u eminently qualified to comment on what the city is like today ! hahhaah
#12 Posted by mallarakhia on September 12, 2002 6:53:10 am
Ever heard the phrase about the chickens coming home to roost?
#13 Posted by Romair on September 12, 2002 7:25:51 am
Sameer #4: ``a mf general...ah general...bc general``
One should not use abusive language. You are slowly turning into a fanatic. It is the conflict between the religious fanatics and the fanatics of your variety, that is destroying Pakistan.
``parked facing Mecca. Who cares about Karachi...Don`t we appreciate verses like, ``tu shaheeN hey basaira ker pahaRoN kee chatanuN maiN``? ``
The people who care about Karachi are living in Karachi, trying to do something to solve the problems. Others like yourself (and me, for that matter, though I did serve my country for twelve years) have the luxury of sitting on the sidelines cursing them. Instead of cursing, perhaps you should go to Karachi and help out. I have always felt that the people flying the F-16s and protecting Karachi, while risking their lives, making 1/20th the salary that you (and I) make are doing far more for Karachi than you are. I am not sure why you think you have the moral highground to crticize them. If anything they should be criticizing you, for getting an education at the country`s expense, and then abandoning it.
I would be interested in finding out how long you have ever worked in Pakistan for the government or how long you paid taxes there in a private enterprise. Since I think people like yourself, who don`t do anything, except abuse others for the problems of Pakistan, are infact one of the biggest problems of Pakistan.
How about doing something constructive for a change? Pakistan is, after all, in great need of Physics professionals. Instead of just going on and on with destructive abuse on Islam and anything else that doesn`t suit your fancy, why don`t you go to Karachi, settle down there, and work with the Edhis and the Cowasjees and the Imran Khans and Gen. Sabeehs, or go stand at the border and risk your life to protect Karachi against an Indian attack.
Why don`t you try to reform Islam from the inside, instead of declaring yourself a Buddhist and then hurling abuses at Islam (if you are Buddhist, then just leave Islam alone; who gave you a right to make fun of it, or of Pakistanis who follow it.) Only a sick mind makes fun of other religions. So what if someone will try to kill you if you try to constructively reform Islam. I know judges and soldiers and police officers who are in situations where they can be killed in Pakistan, but that doesn`t stop them from serving their country. Or at the very least, live in Karachi. Only then do you have a right to launch your abuse.
Whether Pakistanis go to Mecca or to anywhere else, what difference does it make to you? You have used that country, and are now living comfortably in the US. At least, have the courtesy of not abusing the religion they follow and the people who are their working for the country.
The more I read habitual critics, specially abusive ones with an axe to grind, who are unwilling to jump into the arean and spend their own time to solve a problem, the more I am begining to realize that they are part of the problem and not part of the solution. Anyone who really loves Pakistan would honestly work for it, in Pakistan. Then, they (like Hoodbhoy) have a right to be habitual critics. Everyone else, in my opinion, is trying to get cheap popularity, at Pakistan`s expense, and trying to turn themselves into a hero. This is what separates the likes of you from the likes of Hoodbhoys, Farzana Varseys and Arundhati Roys. This is also why, while, I don`t agree with much of Hoodbhoy`s criticism, I do respect him greatly. And while the two above-mentioned ladies critize many things in India (occassionally going overboard), I have never seen them criticize and abuse a whole religion or a whole profession or use dirty abusive acronyms for individuals they do not like. And they live in the system they are critical of, and are trying to fix it.
Rest assured, Sameer, a Pakistani F-16 pilot is doing a hell of a lot more for Pakistan than you ever have and will. I know some of them, and they are there in Pakistan, working for their country, dedicated to the core. And they would have the decency to not abuse you or abuse Buddhism. I would take them over someone with your thoughts, any day.
Since you have already disassociated yourself from Pakistan (physically) and Islam (emotionally), perhaps the best thing you could do is to now stop hurling abuses, at the complete group of peole who did honesly serve their country as F-16 pilots or as honest police officers or as honest shopkeepers and want to continue doing so, and at people who do happen to like Islam (like myself). Just mind your own business and let them mind their own business. They are not abusing you, why are you abusing them?
One should not use abusive language. You are slowly turning into a fanatic. It is the conflict between the religious fanatics and the fanatics of your variety, that is destroying Pakistan.
``parked facing Mecca. Who cares about Karachi...Don`t we appreciate verses like, ``tu shaheeN hey basaira ker pahaRoN kee chatanuN maiN``? ``
The people who care about Karachi are living in Karachi, trying to do something to solve the problems. Others like yourself (and me, for that matter, though I did serve my country for twelve years) have the luxury of sitting on the sidelines cursing them. Instead of cursing, perhaps you should go to Karachi and help out. I have always felt that the people flying the F-16s and protecting Karachi, while risking their lives, making 1/20th the salary that you (and I) make are doing far more for Karachi than you are. I am not sure why you think you have the moral highground to crticize them. If anything they should be criticizing you, for getting an education at the country`s expense, and then abandoning it.
I would be interested in finding out how long you have ever worked in Pakistan for the government or how long you paid taxes there in a private enterprise. Since I think people like yourself, who don`t do anything, except abuse others for the problems of Pakistan, are infact one of the biggest problems of Pakistan.
How about doing something constructive for a change? Pakistan is, after all, in great need of Physics professionals. Instead of just going on and on with destructive abuse on Islam and anything else that doesn`t suit your fancy, why don`t you go to Karachi, settle down there, and work with the Edhis and the Cowasjees and the Imran Khans and Gen. Sabeehs, or go stand at the border and risk your life to protect Karachi against an Indian attack.
Why don`t you try to reform Islam from the inside, instead of declaring yourself a Buddhist and then hurling abuses at Islam (if you are Buddhist, then just leave Islam alone; who gave you a right to make fun of it, or of Pakistanis who follow it.) Only a sick mind makes fun of other religions. So what if someone will try to kill you if you try to constructively reform Islam. I know judges and soldiers and police officers who are in situations where they can be killed in Pakistan, but that doesn`t stop them from serving their country. Or at the very least, live in Karachi. Only then do you have a right to launch your abuse.
Whether Pakistanis go to Mecca or to anywhere else, what difference does it make to you? You have used that country, and are now living comfortably in the US. At least, have the courtesy of not abusing the religion they follow and the people who are their working for the country.
The more I read habitual critics, specially abusive ones with an axe to grind, who are unwilling to jump into the arean and spend their own time to solve a problem, the more I am begining to realize that they are part of the problem and not part of the solution. Anyone who really loves Pakistan would honestly work for it, in Pakistan. Then, they (like Hoodbhoy) have a right to be habitual critics. Everyone else, in my opinion, is trying to get cheap popularity, at Pakistan`s expense, and trying to turn themselves into a hero. This is what separates the likes of you from the likes of Hoodbhoys, Farzana Varseys and Arundhati Roys. This is also why, while, I don`t agree with much of Hoodbhoy`s criticism, I do respect him greatly. And while the two above-mentioned ladies critize many things in India (occassionally going overboard), I have never seen them criticize and abuse a whole religion or a whole profession or use dirty abusive acronyms for individuals they do not like. And they live in the system they are critical of, and are trying to fix it.
Rest assured, Sameer, a Pakistani F-16 pilot is doing a hell of a lot more for Pakistan than you ever have and will. I know some of them, and they are there in Pakistan, working for their country, dedicated to the core. And they would have the decency to not abuse you or abuse Buddhism. I would take them over someone with your thoughts, any day.
Since you have already disassociated yourself from Pakistan (physically) and Islam (emotionally), perhaps the best thing you could do is to now stop hurling abuses, at the complete group of peole who did honesly serve their country as F-16 pilots or as honest police officers or as honest shopkeepers and want to continue doing so, and at people who do happen to like Islam (like myself). Just mind your own business and let them mind their own business. They are not abusing you, why are you abusing them?
#14 Posted by RLeonard on September 12, 2002 8:42:29 am
Bina
One must seek answers to your questions with a sincere heart. If helping Afghans is being considered a sacrifice ask the generals who made zillions out of it. Afghans could have been helped by setting up universities , schools and hospitals. Why did that not happen?
You cannot surely lose sight of the puppets that are willing to be played by puppetters for small change, big pocket money and some toys. Do not blame others for what has passed?
Get rid of the puppets and try to be on your own for a change.
Khuda Hafiz
One must seek answers to your questions with a sincere heart. If helping Afghans is being considered a sacrifice ask the generals who made zillions out of it. Afghans could have been helped by setting up universities , schools and hospitals. Why did that not happen?
You cannot surely lose sight of the puppets that are willing to be played by puppetters for small change, big pocket money and some toys. Do not blame others for what has passed?
Get rid of the puppets and try to be on your own for a change.
Khuda Hafiz
#15 Posted by AllahDitta on September 12, 2002 9:13:36 am
Romair
Sir Ji
Rabb Tuade Khair kare.
The protector of the Watan is not able to solve the problem of farmers in interior districts who are dying of drought and poverty.
If miltary reposnible for country then they need to take care of people`s problems. Protecting the country not excuse for looting country.
Sir Ji
Rabb Tuade Khair kare.
The protector of the Watan is not able to solve the problem of farmers in interior districts who are dying of drought and poverty.
If miltary reposnible for country then they need to take care of people`s problems. Protecting the country not excuse for looting country.
#16 Posted by empirical on September 12, 2002 9:46:18 am
Ref # 4.. sameerJB
I cant think of one reason, why you always have to bring Islam and muslims in the mess that politicians create. That verse from Iqbal is not meant for zia ul haq or for that matter musharraf. It represents and ideal human bieng according to a faith, that u happen to resent. Islam has been abused by all who have lived in pakistan for 50 years. The leaders have used it to satiate their hunger to play king makers and wht not and the public has used it to vent its fury of despair. Bigorty, intolerence and self righteousness are symptoms of a disease called ``collective frustration``. They have acquired the name of Islam in pakistan.
In your blind appreciation of all that is western, you easily forget that Islam and its empires have provided a stable mode of goverence and social structure to the people of this world for centuries.
Only thing wrong with this era is that muslims never had a chance to evolve to accept challanges of modernity. And that is only because of constant meddelling of those western powers in their affairs since the world war. Why dont they just leave the miserable people of this religion alone. They have installed, nourished and supported the most tyrinical and oppressive regimes in these countries for more than half a century.
(The big bogey man, Osama bin ladin.... was brought into the lime light... none other than the CIA during the afghan war. Saddam was SUPPLIED and encouraged to use chemical weapons in its eight year war against Iran.)
Yes, Imperialism, profanity, decadence, pornography, alcohol, pork, .... are denounced by anything Islamic and for good reasons. I dont believe that any civilization needs the above as its corner stones. (these might be your personal predilictions!!)
As for liberalism, western culture, godless science.... they can be viewed in an skeptical light and can be assimilated to some extent into an Islamic society. But such a transition would take a long time to come about. Specially with people like.. arafat, mubarak, musharraf, various kings of the arab world.. choking the very life out of their subjects.
I cant think of one reason, why you always have to bring Islam and muslims in the mess that politicians create. That verse from Iqbal is not meant for zia ul haq or for that matter musharraf. It represents and ideal human bieng according to a faith, that u happen to resent. Islam has been abused by all who have lived in pakistan for 50 years. The leaders have used it to satiate their hunger to play king makers and wht not and the public has used it to vent its fury of despair. Bigorty, intolerence and self righteousness are symptoms of a disease called ``collective frustration``. They have acquired the name of Islam in pakistan.
In your blind appreciation of all that is western, you easily forget that Islam and its empires have provided a stable mode of goverence and social structure to the people of this world for centuries.
Only thing wrong with this era is that muslims never had a chance to evolve to accept challanges of modernity. And that is only because of constant meddelling of those western powers in their affairs since the world war. Why dont they just leave the miserable people of this religion alone. They have installed, nourished and supported the most tyrinical and oppressive regimes in these countries for more than half a century.
(The big bogey man, Osama bin ladin.... was brought into the lime light... none other than the CIA during the afghan war. Saddam was SUPPLIED and encouraged to use chemical weapons in its eight year war against Iran.)
Yes, Imperialism, profanity, decadence, pornography, alcohol, pork, .... are denounced by anything Islamic and for good reasons. I dont believe that any civilization needs the above as its corner stones. (these might be your personal predilictions!!)
As for liberalism, western culture, godless science.... they can be viewed in an skeptical light and can be assimilated to some extent into an Islamic society. But such a transition would take a long time to come about. Specially with people like.. arafat, mubarak, musharraf, various kings of the arab world.. choking the very life out of their subjects.
#17 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 12, 2002 9:46:19 am
Romair #13,
That was a brilliant summation; I agree with everything you wrote in that article 100%--even though a lot of the criticism is valid for me too as I am also not living in Pakistan. BUT I really do want to go to Pakistan after finishing my PhD insha Allah and help it and also to live there.
***
Bina,
Nicely written piece as ever. Yet I can`t help thinking that the Americans dont care about the deaths of others--especially Muslims so no matter HOW much Pakistan helps it (which in my opinion is a mistake which we will pay heavily for) in its so-called fight against ``terror`` (read Islam and especially political Islam) we will never get the thanks for it other than occasional lip-service.
The person I feel sorry for is the little girl and her parents.
And I have no sympathy whatsoever with the misguided fanatics who did this shoot-out. What purpose did it serve? How did it help Islam?
***
That was a brilliant summation; I agree with everything you wrote in that article 100%--even though a lot of the criticism is valid for me too as I am also not living in Pakistan. BUT I really do want to go to Pakistan after finishing my PhD insha Allah and help it and also to live there.
***
Bina,
Nicely written piece as ever. Yet I can`t help thinking that the Americans dont care about the deaths of others--especially Muslims so no matter HOW much Pakistan helps it (which in my opinion is a mistake which we will pay heavily for) in its so-called fight against ``terror`` (read Islam and especially political Islam) we will never get the thanks for it other than occasional lip-service.
The person I feel sorry for is the little girl and her parents.
And I have no sympathy whatsoever with the misguided fanatics who did this shoot-out. What purpose did it serve? How did it help Islam?
***
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