Pervez Hoodbhoy September 15, 2002
#16 Posted by nooralain on September 16, 2002 2:28:56 pm
I can`t agree with Dr. Hoodbhoy`s optimism that elections will allow new faces to emerge on the landscape...and even if these faces did appear, what power would they have in the face of the POA, where he says the real power will remain concentrated. Iss balla ko bhaga dau, feudalism ki balla ko bhaga dau, and then MAYBE the landscape will look much more different.
#15 Posted by Urstruly on September 16, 2002 6:43:22 am
I think the issue at hand is not as simple as Dr. Hoodbhoy has made it out to be – yet Dr. deserves benefit of doubt because it is the nature of this article that only a certain set of information could be given. Nonetheless, good Dr. must be applauded for his courage to bring the issue to the fore.
The real story behind all this fiasco is the increasing pressure by international financial institutions (IMF, World Bank etc.) to document the agriculture economy. A power struggle has thus ensued between ``land owners`` and the tenants. Since Army itself is one big part of feudal system directly and indirectly (direct land ownership or mama, chacha, son-in-law of feudal lords), naturally, it would side with feudal lords. All this sudden anti-feudalism by army being fed into press is just a façade. The cows, dhagas, and livestock of Pakistan, i.e. peasants and people have seen through this façade but the state neither state machinery or media is under their control.
According to the new system, which feudal with the help of Army are trying to implement, a peasant will be a contract worker (with pre-set rate of salary and/or crop sharing) who can be hired and fired by the owner. The peasant will pay taxes from his income. The owner on the other hand will be the ``investor`` who will bear the burden of ``losses`` and will claim them on his tax returns.
Simply put the feudal/Army want to benefit on two avenues. In case the loses are incurred the contracted worker will get reduced crop sharing and may lose salary and on top of that ``owners`` want to decrease the amount of crop sharing as sameerjb has pointed out, also. So a power struggle has started for the bigger share of the pie between feudal/Army and peasants.
Whether we like it or not this system WILL be implemented (or Chief Executive`s plane will explode in the air). Therefore, a national debate is necessary at this point of time to bring the truth before the cows and dhaggas. It is also necessary to prevent Army/feudal nexus to further obfuscate this issue. Religious leadership may become pro-active in this situation, because nature abhors vacuum.
#13 Posted by rsaxena on September 16, 2002 6:43:10 am
re: hemorrhoidal 12-head/shah/americanexpress
...why don`t you and arundhati roy both go jump off the howrah bridge?....
...why don`t you and arundhati roy both go jump off the howrah bridge?....
#12 Posted by stuka on September 16, 2002 6:43:09 am
The Army is Pakistan seems to be doing a great job in fighting it`s own people. So far, they have captured Islamabad multiple times, and they also seem to be occupying the hinterland for their own benefit.
The same army has used excuse upon excuse to wiggle out of war with India. They have not one a single war against us, and use Jehadi proxies to do their dirty work. Yet, the Pakistanis seem to be completely in awe of their Army.
The people get the government they deserve, and if the common people are so stupid that they still welcome Army rule, well, that`s really their problem then isn`t it?
In any case, what happens in Pakistan is not Arundhati Roy`s business, just as what happens in India is not Musharraf`s. I`m sure the former has better things to do, attending High Tea and book signings, and the latter attending parades and inagurations.
The same army has used excuse upon excuse to wiggle out of war with India. They have not one a single war against us, and use Jehadi proxies to do their dirty work. Yet, the Pakistanis seem to be completely in awe of their Army.
The people get the government they deserve, and if the common people are so stupid that they still welcome Army rule, well, that`s really their problem then isn`t it?
In any case, what happens in Pakistan is not Arundhati Roy`s business, just as what happens in India is not Musharraf`s. I`m sure the former has better things to do, attending High Tea and book signings, and the latter attending parades and inagurations.
#11 Posted by nasah on September 15, 2002 9:34:45 pm
Dear Dr. Hoodbhoy:
You and your daughter must be insanely courageous to go into the Lion’s den just like that – now that`s is good news for Pakistani democracy.
the bad news is that -- it`s not a rhetoric -- Musharraf`s Army has ACTUALLY occupied its own country !!!
but then again – this way the Army has a personal stake in the land – it has a million acre Plantation Estate with thousands of Christian Slaves -- to defend against the marauding Indians.
So after all -- for the Army -- it all boils down to Real Estate -- whether it`s in Kashmir or in Okara -- isn`t it?
so much for corruption free administration of General Suharto Musharraf – bahut shore suntey thhey.......
as roamair would say -- of course the occupying army has a right to the land it conquers -- it should belong to the Commanding Officer whose soldiers put their lives on the line for the conquest.
Btw -- haven`t we heard this maligning phrase somewhere else before? --
``Salman Masih had been killed by his OWN people to make the Rangers look bad”
What a powerful argument – always works.
You and your daughter must be insanely courageous to go into the Lion’s den just like that – now that`s is good news for Pakistani democracy.
the bad news is that -- it`s not a rhetoric -- Musharraf`s Army has ACTUALLY occupied its own country !!!
but then again – this way the Army has a personal stake in the land – it has a million acre Plantation Estate with thousands of Christian Slaves -- to defend against the marauding Indians.
So after all -- for the Army -- it all boils down to Real Estate -- whether it`s in Kashmir or in Okara -- isn`t it?
so much for corruption free administration of General Suharto Musharraf – bahut shore suntey thhey.......
as roamair would say -- of course the occupying army has a right to the land it conquers -- it should belong to the Commanding Officer whose soldiers put their lives on the line for the conquest.
Btw -- haven`t we heard this maligning phrase somewhere else before? --
``Salman Masih had been killed by his OWN people to make the Rangers look bad”
What a powerful argument – always works.
#10 Posted by SameerJB on September 15, 2002 9:34:45 pm
What right government had to give government property to Army for free. I believe it was given to them during Ayub Khan`s time. The tenants had the same rights as tenants everywhere else on cultivable land. The absentee owner-tenant share of the crop yield is based on a simple formula devised since the British Raj. A tenant using his seeds, cultivates, look after and reap ends up upto 2/3 of the yield. The military wants to reduce that for tenants on their land by claiming them to be not absentee owner. The tenants point is that they are the ones who are taking care of the crop from day one to reaping must be treated like rest of the tenants.
Since the land was awarded free of cost to Army, government can take it back if so wishes. Because in a free court of law it will be considered favoritism and corruption. At any moment if SCP decides the martial law to be illegal, all actions by that government can be challenged. Similarly if court decides that land awarded free of cost during British Raj to feudals for their services to the crown, an illegal act by colonial masters, most feudals will lose title to their lands. The leftists in Pakistan always took this stand vis-a-vis feudals.
Since the land was awarded free of cost to Army, government can take it back if so wishes. Because in a free court of law it will be considered favoritism and corruption. At any moment if SCP decides the martial law to be illegal, all actions by that government can be challenged. Similarly if court decides that land awarded free of cost during British Raj to feudals for their services to the crown, an illegal act by colonial masters, most feudals will lose title to their lands. The leftists in Pakistan always took this stand vis-a-vis feudals.
#9 Posted by nasah on September 15, 2002 9:34:45 pm
``If the peasants at Okara were to be appeased, which property would be safe?``(prof hobbes)
property owners of the world -- UNITE -- under the banner of hobbes the property owner -- a Crusader for the Rights of Property Owners.
oh no -- the peasants are coming -- the peasants are coming -- now no property is safe -- don`t you appease them -- just bash their heads -- or -- shoot them -- do something or do anything -- call the Rangers -- but for heavens sake -- don`t let `those lowly peasants` touch your intellectual property.
property owners of the world -- UNITE -- under the banner of hobbes the property owner -- a Crusader for the Rights of Property Owners.
oh no -- the peasants are coming -- the peasants are coming -- now no property is safe -- don`t you appease them -- just bash their heads -- or -- shoot them -- do something or do anything -- call the Rangers -- but for heavens sake -- don`t let `those lowly peasants` touch your intellectual property.
#7 Posted by hobbes on September 15, 2002 8:10:02 pm
We all know and understand that feudalism is a now a ``fetter`` - An issue that has not been addressed is that of rights of property owners. Can those who do not own property claim the property of others?
For instance my counsin`s property, an apartment building, was claimed by his tenanat - My counsin was threatened, ghondas brought to surround the property and my, counsin, the legal owner of the property could not enter his own property - it took four years of legal action to evict this tenenant. How is what te peasants in Okara doing any different from what the Qabza mafia do in the city?
Do laws stop operating when they have to be enforced upon the those who are engaged in illegal action and also happen to be poor? Is justice an idea that applies only to select poor?
1. To whom does the property of Okara farms belong?
2. Do property owners have the right to decide what they may or may not do with their property?
3. If the peasants at Okara were to be appeased, which property would be safe?
#3 Posted by AlephNull on September 15, 2002 1:20:35 pm
We have repeatedy heard defenders of the Pakistan Army - on Chowk and elsewhere - claim that feudals as the bane of Pakistan`s body politic; that no progress, let alone democracy, is possible until their hold is broken; that the only power that can and will do that is the Pakistan Army; and that this is indeed the Generalissimo`s intention.
The essence of feudalism is the holding of land by a feudal baron, who while demanding fealty from his tenants or serfs, permits them to live and work plots on his demesne, while being obliged to pay taxes and a large proportion of their harvest to the lord of the manor. The baron provides his tenants with armed protection, and, vitally, his word is law on his manorial estate.
Going beyond labels and concretes, one should regard the military as the largest and most solidly entrenched feudal in Pakistan. Do Benazir or Khar or any of the rest have *1 million* tenants? At the macro level, the armed forces may be said to treat the whole of Pakistan as their personal fief, periodically appointing, then dismissing for corruption and incompetence, the civilian politicians who are in reality employees; essentially estate mangers and agents and overseers. Some sub-holdings - such as the Okara military farms, or several business ventures, are managed more closely. At the micro level, senior military officers, starting with Musharraf, appear to have acquire hundreds of acres of land each, thus truly joining the landed gentry.
It could of course be that that the military has only become ultimate feudal overlord with the noblest of intentions, to understand, regulate and eventually overthrow the system - somewhat on the lines of ``If you want to keep the military out,bring them in``!
The essence of feudalism is the holding of land by a feudal baron, who while demanding fealty from his tenants or serfs, permits them to live and work plots on his demesne, while being obliged to pay taxes and a large proportion of their harvest to the lord of the manor. The baron provides his tenants with armed protection, and, vitally, his word is law on his manorial estate.
Going beyond labels and concretes, one should regard the military as the largest and most solidly entrenched feudal in Pakistan. Do Benazir or Khar or any of the rest have *1 million* tenants? At the macro level, the armed forces may be said to treat the whole of Pakistan as their personal fief, periodically appointing, then dismissing for corruption and incompetence, the civilian politicians who are in reality employees; essentially estate mangers and agents and overseers. Some sub-holdings - such as the Okara military farms, or several business ventures, are managed more closely. At the micro level, senior military officers, starting with Musharraf, appear to have acquire hundreds of acres of land each, thus truly joining the landed gentry.
It could of course be that that the military has only become ultimate feudal overlord with the noblest of intentions, to understand, regulate and eventually overthrow the system - somewhat on the lines of ``If you want to keep the military out,bring them in``!
#2 Posted by sadna on September 15, 2002 11:49:10 am
I am sorry Ms Arundhati Roy didnot take an educated interest in this Army vs citizen land dispute like she did in the state vs citizen dispute of those displaced by the Narmada dam.
Reducing the land claims of one million people who have tilled it for generations into a black and white question of `law` defined as Army interests is a recipe for trouble. Finally the law of the land exists only with the consent of the people. Moreover the Army is not the state, surely the Army shouldnot even be an enforcer of the law when it is an interested party, its role should be only that of one of the parties to the dispute.
How about the candidates standing in the elections from these areas. Will things change once the elected governments take over?
Reducing the land claims of one million people who have tilled it for generations into a black and white question of `law` defined as Army interests is a recipe for trouble. Finally the law of the land exists only with the consent of the people. Moreover the Army is not the state, surely the Army shouldnot even be an enforcer of the law when it is an interested party, its role should be only that of one of the parties to the dispute.
How about the candidates standing in the elections from these areas. Will things change once the elected governments take over?
#1 Posted by temporal on September 15, 2002 10:35:46 am
.
[…Although scheduled for publication on 15 September, the interview did not appear in print…]
Elementary, my dear Watson!
Hope Pervez Hoodbhoy enjoyed the chocolate cake offered him by Major General Husain Mehdi, Director General of the Rangers.
It is obvious why the plug was pulled for the interview.
Time to pull out that list published by South Asian Times of the generals who have amassed fertile lands at throw-away prices.
Also time to rid Pakistan of its occupying army.
rgds,
t
[…Although scheduled for publication on 15 September, the interview did not appear in print…]
Elementary, my dear Watson!
Hope Pervez Hoodbhoy enjoyed the chocolate cake offered him by Major General Husain Mehdi, Director General of the Rangers.
It is obvious why the plug was pulled for the interview.
Time to pull out that list published by South Asian Times of the generals who have amassed fertile lands at throw-away prices.
Also time to rid Pakistan of its occupying army.
rgds,
t
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