What I Saw In Okara

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[…Although scheduled for publication on 15 September, the interview did not appear in print…]

Elementary, my dear Watson!


Hope Pervez Hoodbhoy enjoyed the chocolate cake offered him by Major General Husain Mehdi, Director General of the Rangers.

It is obvious why the plug was pulled for the interview.

Time to pull out that list published by South Asian Times of the generals who have amassed fertile lands at throw-away prices.

Also time to rid Pakistan of its occupying army.

rgds,

t

I am sorry Ms Arundhati Roy didnot take an educated interest in this Army vs citizen land dispute like she did in the state vs citizen dispute of those displaced by the Narmada dam.

Reducing the land claims of one million people who have tilled it for generations into a black and white question of `law` defined as Army interests is a recipe for trouble. Finally the law of the land exists only with the consent of the people. Moreover the Army is not the state, surely the Army shouldnot even be an enforcer of the law when it is an interested party, its role should be only that of one of the parties to the dispute.

How about the candidates standing in the elections from these areas. Will things change once the elected governments take over?

We have repeatedy heard defenders of the Pakistan Army - on Chowk and elsewhere - claim that feudals as the bane of Pakistan`s body politic; that no progress, let alone democracy, is possible until their hold is broken; that the only power that can and will do that is the Pakistan Army; and that this is indeed the Generalissimo`s intention.

The essence of feudalism is the holding of land by a feudal baron, who while demanding fealty from his tenants or serfs, permits them to live and work plots on his demesne, while being obliged to pay taxes and a large proportion of their harvest to the lord of the manor. The baron provides his tenants with armed protection, and, vitally, his word is law on his manorial estate.

Going beyond labels and concretes, one should regard the military as the largest and most solidly entrenched feudal in Pakistan. Do Benazir or Khar or any of the rest have *1 million* tenants? At the macro level, the armed forces may be said to treat the whole of Pakistan as their personal fief, periodically appointing, then dismissing for corruption and incompetence, the civilian politicians who are in reality employees; essentially estate mangers and agents and overseers. Some sub-holdings - such as the Okara military farms, or several business ventures, are managed more closely. At the micro level, senior military officers, starting with Musharraf, appear to have acquire hundreds of acres of land each, thus truly joining the landed gentry.

It could of course be that that the military has only become ultimate feudal overlord with the noblest of intentions, to understand, regulate and eventually overthrow the system - somewhat on the lines of ``If you want to keep the military out,bring them in``!

Dr Hoodbhoy is on mark as usual.

We all know and understand that feudalism is a now a ``fetter`` - An issue that has not been addressed is that of rights of property owners. Can those who do not own property claim the property of others?
For instance my counsin`s property, an apartment building, was claimed by his tenanat - My counsin was threatened, ghondas brought to surround the property and my, counsin, the legal owner of the property could not enter his own property - it took four years of legal action to evict this tenenant. How is what te peasants in Okara doing any different from what the Qabza mafia do in the city?
Do laws stop operating when they have to be enforced upon the those who are engaged in illegal action and also happen to be poor? Is justice an idea that applies only to select poor?
1. To whom does the property of Okara farms belong?
2. Do property owners have the right to decide what they may or may not do with their property?
3. If the peasants at Okara were to be appeased, which property would be safe?

``If the peasants at Okara were to be appeased, which property would be safe?``(prof hobbes)

property owners of the world -- UNITE -- under the banner of hobbes the property owner -- a Crusader for the Rights of Property Owners.

oh no -- the peasants are coming -- the peasants are coming -- now no property is safe -- don`t you appease them -- just bash their heads -- or -- shoot them -- do something or do anything -- call the Rangers -- but for heavens sake -- don`t let `those lowly peasants` touch your intellectual property.

What right government had to give government property to Army for free. I believe it was given to them during Ayub Khan`s time. The tenants had the same rights as tenants everywhere else on cultivable land. The absentee owner-tenant share of the crop yield is based on a simple formula devised since the British Raj. A tenant using his seeds, cultivates, look after and reap ends up upto 2/3 of the yield. The military wants to reduce that for tenants on their land by claiming them to be not absentee owner. The tenants point is that they are the ones who are taking care of the crop from day one to reaping must be treated like rest of the tenants.
Since the land was awarded free of cost to Army, government can take it back if so wishes. Because in a free court of law it will be considered favoritism and corruption. At any moment if SCP decides the martial law to be illegal, all actions by that government can be challenged. Similarly if court decides that land awarded free of cost during British Raj to feudals for their services to the crown, an illegal act by colonial masters, most feudals will lose title to their lands. The leftists in Pakistan always took this stand vis-a-vis feudals.

Dear Dr. Hoodbhoy:

You and your daughter must be insanely courageous to go into the Lion’s den just like that – now that`s is good news for Pakistani democracy.

the bad news is that -- it`s not a rhetoric -- Musharraf`s Army has ACTUALLY occupied its own country !!!

but then again – this way the Army has a personal stake in the land – it has a million acre Plantation Estate with thousands of Christian Slaves -- to defend against the marauding Indians.

So after all -- for the Army -- it all boils down to Real Estate -- whether it`s in Kashmir or in Okara -- isn`t it?

so much for corruption free administration of General Suharto Musharraf – bahut shore suntey thhey.......

as roamair would say -- of course the occupying army has a right to the land it conquers -- it should belong to the Commanding Officer whose soldiers put their lives on the line for the conquest.

Btw -- haven`t we heard this maligning phrase somewhere else before? --
``Salman Masih had been killed by his OWN people to make the Rangers look bad”

What a powerful argument – always works.

The Army is Pakistan seems to be doing a great job in fighting it`s own people. So far, they have captured Islamabad multiple times, and they also seem to be occupying the hinterland for their own benefit.

The same army has used excuse upon excuse to wiggle out of war with India. They have not one a single war against us, and use Jehadi proxies to do their dirty work. Yet, the Pakistanis seem to be completely in awe of their Army.

The people get the government they deserve, and if the common people are so stupid that they still welcome Army rule, well, that`s really their problem then isn`t it?

In any case, what happens in Pakistan is not Arundhati Roy`s business, just as what happens in India is not Musharraf`s. I`m sure the former has better things to do, attending High Tea and book signings, and the latter attending parades and inagurations.

re: hemorrhoidal 12-head/shah/americanexpress

...why don`t you and arundhati roy both go jump off the howrah bridge?....

I think the issue at hand is not as simple as Dr. Hoodbhoy has made it out to be – yet Dr. deserves benefit of doubt because it is the nature of this article that only a certain set of information could be given. Nonetheless, good Dr. must be applauded for his courage to bring the issue to the fore.

The real story behind all this fiasco is the increasing pressure by international financial institutions (IMF, World Bank etc.) to document the agriculture economy. A power struggle has thus ensued between ``land owners`` and the tenants. Since Army itself is one big part of feudal system directly and indirectly (direct land ownership or mama, chacha, son-in-law of feudal lords), naturally, it would side with feudal lords. All this sudden anti-feudalism by army being fed into press is just a façade. The cows, dhagas, and livestock of Pakistan, i.e. peasants and people have seen through this façade but the state neither state machinery or media is under their control.

According to the new system, which feudal with the help of Army are trying to implement, a peasant will be a contract worker (with pre-set rate of salary and/or crop sharing) who can be hired and fired by the owner. The peasant will pay taxes from his income. The owner on the other hand will be the ``investor`` who will bear the burden of ``losses`` and will claim them on his tax returns.

Simply put the feudal/Army want to benefit on two avenues. In case the loses are incurred the contracted worker will get reduced crop sharing and may lose salary and on top of that ``owners`` want to decrease the amount of crop sharing as sameerjb has pointed out, also. So a power struggle has started for the bigger share of the pie between feudal/Army and peasants.

Whether we like it or not this system WILL be implemented (or Chief Executive`s plane will explode in the air). Therefore, a national debate is necessary at this point of time to bring the truth before the cows and dhaggas. It is also necessary to prevent Army/feudal nexus to further obfuscate this issue. Religious leadership may become pro-active in this situation, because nature abhors vacuum.

I can`t agree with Dr. Hoodbhoy`s optimism that elections will allow new faces to emerge on the landscape...and even if these faces did appear, what power would they have in the face of the POA, where he says the real power will remain concentrated. Iss balla ko bhaga dau, feudalism ki balla ko bhaga dau, and then MAYBE the landscape will look much more different.

hobbes #6.

` If the peasants at Okara were to be appeased, which property would be safe? `

It is amazing the you should call tillers` call for a right to the property they have tilled for generation as appeasement. Specially when the owner of the land is military. How did the military come to own the land. Did it pay for it? If not what right does it have to it.

Also there is something called social justice. When Musharraf goes to the IMF and the western countries to ask for abatement or out right forgiveness of the loans, under what law is he asking for it.

I would say if the tiller have tilled the land for say 25-30 years it should belong to them.

re. Hobbes:
``If the peasants at Okara were to be appeased, which property would be safe?``
Ajeet has already inquired as to how the army came ot acquire large areas of STATE-owned real estate. We might also ask how the present feudals came to acquire the lands they live off. (Posed another way, exactly how wide did they spread their legs before the colonists?)
Some other relevant questions: how equitable has the reimbursement of slave-.. I mean peasant- labour been in Pakistan? How much in keeping with Islamic ethos of social justice has this been? What should be considered equitable retro-imbursement for services?
Methink you are indeed disconnected from ground realities in any meaningful, experiential sense that might create empathy.
rgds,
PM

P.S. Hobbes, still awaiting your comments on reply on April Fool Referendum Board.
Thanks,

Urstruly:
Intresting post, your #15!

a report based on what pervez hoodbhoy has said in this interview and in fact more has already appeared in dawn last week --

IT IS IMF AGAIN,

It is nice to know that the army is evicting the poor because of IMF. Jihadists are crossing to india because of indians, al quida men are in pakistan because US bombed afghanistan. Can any pakistani assume responsibility for anything.

...where is that omar_r_quraishi kid?...so much for his ranting about pak media...


{The false propaganda of Pakistan TV stood exposed yet again when the channel claimed that voters were dragged out of their houses in Lolab assembly constituency in Kupwara district without realising that elections were countermanded there after the assassination of Jammu and Kashmir minister Mushtaq Ahmed Lone.

Elections to Lolab will be held on October 8. }

Dear people, a question...

Since everyone`s talking about IMF and the World Bank etc. etc., is there a pathway or system by which the politicians can be conmpletely by- passed and the loans handed directly to those who actually need them?

Thank you.
Umer M.

PM# 20

Thank you. Probably, the last few lines of my post caught your attention. In fact, this assertion is not made on mere assumptions, the engine of change is already in motion. I know, at least Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman has explicitly asked people to not to pay taxes (that includes income taxes, aabyana, and other direct tax on agriculture) to the government, because this government has become a revenue collector for someone else.

I agree with Maulana. The acceptance of any tax structure that does not guarantee the return of revenue back to the community is unjust and thus un-Islamic.

Umer,

Excellent point. But the philosophy of IMF and WB, behind this concept of ``aid through debt`` is to create sustainable development in the third world countries. In other words it is an ``aid`` to develop an infrastructure or a base on which the development will take place. At conceptual level this idea is correct - most of the IMF advertisements in third world countries deliver the message that it is better to give someone seeds rather than beans, or a fishnet is better than the fish etc.

Most of the thrid world countries however, do not have a system of check and balance in place to check the corruption that followes with such aid - this includes the countries that even have democracy.

Another form of ``aid`` is that which is given to the local NGOs but through the local governments. This opens up another avenue of corruption, where bhanjas and bhateejas of powers that be open up NGOs and skim money. In concept, this kind of aid is used to develop human resources, but in practice it developes only certain kinds of humans :). The foreign NGOs are another menace, which I call trojan horses, which are unleashed on us to prolestyze among us the Western system of values and they are committed to change the social order according to the Western system of values. Please read my article on Globalization to understand this phenomenon.

In theory and in practice I am utterly against the concept of getting ``aid`` (in fact debt). It simply means that we are living beyond our means. This gives western colonial powers a strong foothold right on our chest. They can suffocate us anytime they want.

What we need at this time from the perspective of our nation is to stop our rulers from getting further aid. Period. Internal system of generation of revenue like a just tax system must be developed. Unfortunately, under pressure from colonial powers we are building a tax system to pay the return on investment that colonial powers have made in our land. How can such system be just when all that people pay does not come back to them as in any civilized society, instead it goes to soodkhors who invested. That is exactly the reason riba was prohibited in Islam because creates new avenues to exploit human beings. In this case it has turned into an all encompassing global evil.

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Urstruly is absolutley right in his earlier post describing the undercurrents that are stirring the pot here. It is an attempt to document the agriculture economy with owners, without any question, benefiting from it. The owner-tiller relationship is turned into an employer-employee relationship without consideringt the obligations of the owners in terms of retirement package, holidays, work hours, housing, insurance and medical etc. The old crop sharing system accommodated all these in lump sum crop share for tiller. In the new system, tiller is treated more like a temporary worker with no power to negotiate contract.
It will decrease the motivation for production as well as opening gates to competition from migrant and cheap workers from arid lands and even Afghanistan. It may be even beneficial for owner to not cultivate at all if the benefits of drought are better than poor harvest, in the form of tax breaks or subsidies.

link to this on all dawn pages as an `ad`
____________________________________________

Chairman Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, Imran Khan appeals to all Pakistanis at home and abroad
Fellow Pakistanis,

Assalam Alaikum

This is the first time in my life that I am approaching you through a letter. When I embarked on my mission to eradicate Cancer, and went to every nook and corner of Pakistan, I realized that various injustices had shackled my countrymen.

During my campaign against cancer, I had come to fully realize that more than individual cancer, what needed to be addressed was the cancer of an unjust system that was eating away at the vitals of our nation. This collective cancer was destroying our country, and needed as drastic a treatment as does an individual suffering from this dread disease.

This can only be possible if the factors responsible for the spread of this cancer can be removed…they being none other than the professional politicians and the corrupt administration. Only their removal can breathe life into the system.

This is the basic conviction of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, and this is why we have shunned professional politicians, because the need of the hour is a clean, unstained leadership that can rein in the arrogance of the bureaucracy in an attempt to save this country.

This is my aim and objective. I am fully aware of the fact that this is an onerous task, and there will be many hurdles along the way in the shape of professional politicians and corrupt officials but I give you my word that I shall not be thwarted by them and will do everything in my power to root out this cancer from the body politic of Pakistan.

This is something, however, that I will not be able to achieve without your cooperation. Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf needs financial assistance to be an effective force in Elections 2002. Its members and office bearers do not have access to funds like the professional politicians, as they belong to the cadre which earns its living in an honest manner.

Rid your country of the cancer of corruption and injustice. Extend a helping hand to Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf.

Pakistan Zindabad

Allah Hafiz

Imran Khan


You can contribute to our political party by any of the following methods

Click here for Payment by Credit Card, Online Electronic Transfer

Payment via Bank Draft:

For donations in Pak Rupees:
Name of Account: Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf
Account Number 8-9091-01
Bank Name Platinum Commercial Bank
Address of Bank Blue Area Islamabad

Military Farms in Okara were setup by the British in the 20`s and are part of Army`s corporate empire now.

All agricultural land must belong to the tillers. Fuedalism in all its forms and manifistations is evil and must be abolished...... who will bell the cat remains the million $$$ question.

Urstruly,
No, it wasn`t the last bit of your #15 that caught my attention at all. Between the religious parties and the feudals, I`ll take the former anyday I think. Surprised? Well, Least to least number prinicple :)
PM

Hey anny
Looks like the Quisling League has gone all out against Imran Khan. The worry of an election without mudslinging has ended lol! Omairrrr comments please!
http://www.syberwurx.com/nation/daily/today/national/lhr2.htm

Reviews of recent books on Pakistan
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15740

rsaxena: shut up already ! hahah -- for other readers this might be relevant -- editorial in today`s dawn on the issue --

Negotiate they must



The Punjab government`s refusal to talk to the tenants of military-managed farms in Okara and its insistence on posting paramilitary troops to deal with the situation there is only adding to the tension and resentment in the area. On Tuesday, tenants working on these lands again accused the Rangers of forcibly making them sign new land contracts which the tillers say will compromise their tenancy rights and interests. The Punjab government is not even ready to listen to the grievances of the tenants, and instead is relying on coercive power to keep them under check. However, as the events of recent weeks should have amply shown by now, this approach simply cannot resolve the conflict. To make matters worse, the head of the Pakistan Rangers in Punjab was quoted last week as saying that ``illegal`` and ``anti-state`` NGOs were creating rifts between the tenants and the military farm administration. The officer, a two-star general, had also said that after the elections in October he would recommend to the government to check the accounts of these NGOs and to take note of their ``other activities``. These allegations were repeated by representatives of a hitherto unknown tenants` organization saying that the Indian intelligence agency RAW was taking advantage of the situation and instigating a section of tenants to agitate.

The role of the Rangers in this whole affair, coupled with the repeated allegations that tenants were being forced to sign the new contracts, has been most counter-productive. The paramilitary forces seems to have become involved in the dispute as if it were a directly affected party. The Rangers do have a role but that should be confined only to the maintenance of law and order. For it to become involved in something as substantive as signing of new contracts by the farmers is something quite counter-productive. The tenants have time and again said that they would be more than willing to discuss the matter with the Punjab government, the actual owner of the lands. The provincial government must have realized by now that it is important to talk directly to the representatives of the tenants and try to resolve the problem in a spirit of mutual accommodation. It is pointless to pretend that it is merely a law and order problem that can be tackled only by more effective use of police and Rangers.

We as a nation are proned to the excesses of our so called protectors, as Dr hoodbhoy rightly said, it is our fear of the being in a state of perpetual war that keeps us from pointing the finger at the real cause of our dismay. We are a militarised nation, where we can have a gun battle between revolting minorities and suave Military Exhibitions in the same city on a single day. From Okara to Gwador the story is the same. The colonialist did have the last laughs as they bestowed upon us a murky and delirious set of bourgeosie. Democracy is only a utopia in this autocratic world of ours.

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BLAMING THE IMF,

It is pathetic to see people attributing any kind of economic rationale to the activities in pakistan. The attempts to evict the tillers from military land is more likely to be an effort by the military to increase revenue rather than any typee of macro economic objectives of lowering production costs and tax write offs.

One should not forget that pak govt has given up on collecting import duties for the items sold in burra markets. They wanted to tax the shops based on the number of rolling shutters the shop has, and that is as low as the great farren returned economists of pakistan can think off. There were riots and nothing has changed.
A failed country that cannot detect the goods flowing across its borders has no right to talk of any kind of policy. There has to be a limit to white washing a failed corrupt state.

Elimination of Fuedalism can be a simple process.

a) A Law is passed to grant ownership rights to the land that the peasants/serfs work on.

b) A Klashnikov rifle and 1000 rounds are provided from the zakat funds to each peasant family to enforce their property rights.

Would be fun to watch Shahnawaz Khar, sac and other fuedal brats apply for political asylum in the US.

re: onmar_quar

...awww...what`s da matta?...little boy is angry because his little thesis on pak media`s objectivity was blown away?....

re: Zakkk # 34

Hey Zakkk, you would know these militico-politics better, but I wonder why Pakistani military needs a Quisling League when it already has Imran Khan. The match between Imran khan and the military is so perfect, so ideal, it is truly made in heaven. The military can not have a better feudal installed as Prime Minister than Imran Khan - a man of neither intelligence nor vision, but personal appeal for those catching at straws.

At a first glance, the Quisling League appears to be standard smokescreen to provide some ``legitimacy`` to Imran Khan in a game between Imran Khan and the military.

Is that too cynical a view in your opinion? Does anybody other than these two Quislings have a chance of ``winning`` the ``popular vote?``

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Prem,
I am very curious to know the basis on which you reached the conclusion that Imran Khan is a ``man of neither intelligence nor vision``, and a feudal par exellence to boot!
I spent the past year in Karachi, and his erstwhile status as King`s man notwithstading, he came across as not only the most (only?) honest political figure but quite intelligent too. Intelligent enough to know that no amount of `realism` is going to get Pakistan out of the massive mess it is; while pragmatism-tempered idealism can. Also, he was forthright about not having the magical wand or portions with which to wish away the myriad of problems, but that the only hope lay in establishing institutions that would support gradual change.
I really would be interested to know how you formed YOUR opinion.
rgds,
PM

zakkk
what to believe? :((

http://www.nni-news.com/today/national/nat-05.htm

Imran says his struggle against corrupt to continue till his death

ISLAMABAD, Sept 20 (NNI): PTI chairman Imran Khan Thursday said that his struggle against the corrupt mafia would continue until his death.

Our movement is not for power but to bring change in the country and I will one day succeed in lowering down the coffins of the corrupt in their political graves, he said while addressing a press conference here at PTI`s central secretariat.

Imran Khan stressed upon the need of `neutral empires` because the district administrations and establishment are all out for pre-poll rigging to get King`s Party candidates succeeded in the forthcoming general elections.

The mysterious silence on part of the Election Commission, has mutilated the face of its credibility, he lamented.

Announcing the party manifesto Imran Khan said that PTI favoured General Musharraf`s seven-point agenda in the interest of nation but the government has sidetracked from its agenda and the corrupt mafia is being supported to come back to the corridors of power.

Imran Khan said that he has no personal enmity with any one. ``I have had good relations with Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif and the people in the sitting government. My contention is based on principles and in the best interest of nation.``

To a question he said that under the present no men of principle can take part in elections because thana katchehry ki siyasat is based on rivalries and family feuds. ``The people are hostage to their whims and greed. I have come to save the masses from them. I will show them their political death``, he vowed.

He said PTI after coming into power would bring a number of reforms in judiciary, economic structure, justice system, social sector, education, provincial harmony and international relations.

He expressed his anger over some reports carried by a section of press regarding his wife Jemima Khan. ``Propaganda against a convert is no service to Islam``, he said and added his wife during her university days read Salman Rushdi`s book on Pakistan ``Shame`` that is included in University`s syllabus. He posed a question if Muslims behave like this, how would a non-Muslim convert to Islam?

Re Prem: ...Maybe I am just the sucker for the underdog, but with the smear campaign against Imrans wife and party, and attempts to draw in party members. I feel a little sorry for tehrik e insaf, its going into the elections without a single alliance ata regional or provincial level..it`s playing with all the cards decked against it. Most of the people I know who are fans of Imran, like Omair, won`t be in the country to vote!

rsaxena -- yaawwwwwnn -- ummm no -- actually was just going to sleep reading your expected drivel -- hahah -- actually u seem to be the only one to think it was ``blown to bits`` -- get a life rsaxena -- i hear the RSS and the VHP both have openings for head mornon! hahha

NUCLEAR PRICE,

Pakistan has become the philippines of the south asia, a colony of the americans all because they have the bomb. Now on every aspect of the pak society will be under the thumb of uncle sam, military will be controlled and the bomb. American free market ideas will be introduced with a non existing institutional structure, a vehicle for public opinion or an educated elite. The industrialists will exploit, all of what little pakistan has got will be foreign owned to pay off the debt.

It is pathetic to note that pakistan has got no dbt relief. only defferrment, a mounting debt a few years later. Americans are not interested in developing a society that in terms of vaues is against theirs, a spring fountain of taliban and al quida, they will only control the entry and exit points.

At last some one is listening to what I had been talking about, Control of Jihadic Frontiers is the Challenge of the day. Americans will be doing that for pakistan. Good for the world.

omar_r_quraishi

Welcome back ! Edited any stories lately replacing ``murderer`` by ``freedom fighter`` ? We have been missing the more brutal and demented headlines from your media in the last few weeks.

BTW, I hear there is a wonderful freedom fight that has begun in Pakistan lately. There has been more and more ``freedom`` in Karachi and Bhawalpur. Congratulations ! Remember, it is very hard to tell the difference between freedom fighter and terrorist. Why would anyone kill themselves unless they were deeply opressed?

For some reason I did not see any
descriptions like ``Freedom Fighters kill 5 in Bhawalpur`` in Dawn? Can you please advise an unsophisticated person why this is so? Or does freedom only get involved when indians are killed?

your unsophisticated fan,

PTI office-bearers resign, call on Shujaat
http://www.syberwurx.com/nation/daily/today/national/lhr1.htm
By Our Staff Reporter
LAHORE–A delegation of leading office bearers of Tehrik-i-Insaf called on senior PML (Qauid-i-Azam) leader Ch Shujaat Hussain and announced their resignation from the party while protesting against TI Chiefs’ attitude of arrogance against late Chaudhry Zahur Elahi saying Imran Khan had shown disrespect for the working classes and insulted the common man.
Earlier addressing a big public rally in Gujrat city former TI vice president Amir Ali lashed at TI chief and said that such arrogance of any leader was unacceptable and this did expose the fake character of those leaders who attempted to use the average citizens for their own blind ambitions. In a recent statement the TI head had tauntingly suggested that sepoys, pedestrians and their off spring are not worthy of improvement in their lives. Meanwhile Misbah Tufail ex city TI secretary general and a noted human right activist and lawyer said the same sepoys who guard our frontiers, protect our security, are the first to shed blood for the nation. She said that she was much impressed by the high values, moral character and humility of Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain. Former general secretary TI Mirza Yousaf, district joint secretary Raees Zulfiqar and Press secretary Dr Razzak lauded the services and sacrifices of late Chaudhry Zahur Elahi for the downtrodden and low-income groups. They also prayed for the success of PML (Quaid-i-Azam) in the October elections and pledged to work towards that end so as to ensure a stable and secure Pakistan for all Pakistanis.

Question Time Pakistan on Sept 20 had a General(Punjab Minister of Communication), a Mr Shafi of PML(N), a Ms Nasreen of MQM and a `social critic`, from an institute of ``democracy studies``, sorry I cannot remember all the names.

The questions covered arrests of Al Qaeda, elections in Jammu and Kashmir, whether Pakistan can have talks with the BJP in power, pre-poll rigging, performance of the Pakistani cricket team etc.

Re Al Qaeda arrests, the General was very happy, PML(N) guy said intelligence should be better because civilians were killed in crossfire, Ms Nasreen MQM said intelligence agencies are involved in political matters and basic problem is that the government has not made up its mind to give up on extremism. Mr Social Critic said, Al Qaeda`s terrorist activities are condemned by Pakistanis but support exists for its anti-imperalist and anti-American stances. Moderator found audience didnot support Al Qaeda like he said, but an audience member also said Pakistanis support just causes like Kashmir, Palestine and Chechnya also espoused by Al Qaeda.

Jammu and Kashmir elections :
A question was asked whether the `low turnout` on election day bears out the Pakistani stand that elections are a sham. Everyone agreed talking of violence and coercion by the army even the social critic talked of photos of people sitting in a line with soldiers with guns standing near them `looking` as if they had been dragged out to vote.

Ms Nasreen MQM was an exception who shocked even the moderator by saying that until any settlement is reached, whatever the turnout, holding elections in Jammu and Kashmir are appropriate. She got many `principled` followup remarks for this. Remarks like she is in effect supporting India`s occupation of Jammu and Kashmir, that elections are an attempt to fudge the basic question of selfdetermination, so they should be boycotted by Kashmiris, how can she say such a thing when the international community and Kashmiris themselves havenot accepted the Indian stance, why can`t India and Pakistan leave Kashmiris alone(applause), it should be left to the UN to take over and carry out what was spelled out in its own resolution(applause).

Ms Nasreen replied with, elections must be always be held for people to express their views, that the issue of selfdetermination will not die down simply with elections, the Hurriyat didnot take part which shows the issue is still alive, that if Pakistan had the military capability of taking over Kashmir, it should have done it a long time ago, and violence is not good. She obviously offended many in the audience.

Then a question was raised ``Vajpayee has said that India will take unilateral action against Pakistan if required. Whether given this remark and the recent past, Pakistan can hold any meaningful dialogue with India as long as BJP is in power``

Ms Nasreen said yes, the extremists in power in India will be able to get the moderates to agree to a solution. Social critic said politicians donot always mean the things they say. Moderator? said Vajpayee made this statement after Bush`s remarks about US unilateral action against Iraq just like the Indian military mobilization was in emulation of US attacks on Afghanistan.

The PML(N) guy said no thats not true, situation deteriorated before 9/11. Vajpayee didnot use such language always. When the democratic government of Nawaz Sharif was in power, Vajpayee came to Lahore, he didnot use any such language then, Nawaz Sharif and he were well on the way to resolving the Kashmir issue, it is only in the last 2-3 years of military government Vajpayee has been using any such language.

The General said, no such thing, the problem is not with Pakistan, its India`s intransigent attitude which is preventing resolution of issues, its India who mobilized. We have been offering dialogue, without dialogue how can anything be resolved, nothing can be resolved through the barrel of guns. Musharraf even went to Agra, its the mindset of the Indians which has to change see what they do to the minorities in their country see how Muslims were killed in Gujarat and the attacks on Christians, don`t we have the right to exist as a sovereign country(heavy applause).

The PML(N) panellist said Vajpayee visited and spoke at Minar-e-Pakistan. General said words are not enough, what are words good for(applause), One audience member hesitatingly said the problems began before 9/11, in fact soon after Lahore after Kargil. But moderator moved on to another audience member. (Kargil seems to be a banned word on the program btw, the moderator Ms Khan always refuses to allow it). Mr Social Critic said Indians like Americans have to do less of thinking themselves a great and big country, only then the Kashmir issue can be resolved.

Re prepoll rigging:
The MQM and PML(N) panellists said it was going on. Ms Nasreen said she saw a list on government stationery titled consensus candidates with names from the PML(Q), SDA and JUI?. She also said, MQM is facing obstacles from extremist groups including MMA, showing the intelligence agencies have not given up their predilection for political interference and extremism.
(There was a discussion somewhere around this time when she tried to say that past policies have created a mindset in the military and intelligence agencies which has not changed yet because the goverment has not made up its mind to give up on its extremist associations. Moderator labelled this as the existence of `regenade elements` and moved on)

PML(N) guy said things are being made difficult for political parties, banners put up are being torn down next day, public rallies are only partly allowed and permission given only on the day of the rally, we are not allowed to meet the voters, those who could have drawn votes are disqualified, etc etc.

General said I have been general for 14 years and seen 4 elections, let me tell you how prepoll rigging is done. He said foundations stones are laid in promise of roads, other promises are made, people are given employment, police is transferred, bureacrats are transferred, nothing of this sort is going on now.

There was banter on how civilians have never held an election it was always held by generals. The General retorted thats how you came to power. Audience enjoyed General`s comments more than PML(N) panellist`s comments.

On a question about boycott, PML(N) guy said elections are an opportunity and we donot want the government to have things its way. Everyone should indeed vote and do so for the people of their choice. Mr. Social Critic said democracy has to reach even the grassroots and so everyone must support the election process and stand up to be counted.


To a question about BB, as usual it came down to, she has been convicted, she got two chances.

A question was asked whether the Pakistani cricket teams performance is because of lack of morals or lack of morale. PML(N) guy blamed generals, General defended the generals and government, Ms Nasreen said better selection, audience said better organisation/commercialization, social critic said neither morals nor morale, like Pakistanis in general, they have to learn to play as a team.

re: Zakkk # 49

Goes to show how ignorant I am of Pakistani politics. The concept of Imran Khan as an underdog makes no sense to me. The closest analogy I can think of would be someone like Amitabh Bachhan (a person I like very much) who got hammered (mauled, pummelled, and beaten) in politics because the guy had no real political legs, nothing significant to say. That was an attempt to cash in on fading good looks, easy money, and empty words directed at empty heads.

True, I may not be entirely fair to Imran Khan. For instance, he may not have entered into political alliances for some very moral and good reasons. However, I immediately suspect any of the following three factors: 1. the guy has no significant political standing of his own for anyone else to bother with him 2. he can`t get along with others 3. the military has already assured him of a democratic victory.

But I grant I am being quite a skeptic.


re: PM # 46

You caught me on the wrong foot there! A confession is in order.

As you must figured out from my reply to Zakkk, my opinion about Imran Khan is based on trivial slices of impressions, not detailed knowledge. Most likely, I am mouthing my biases. But everytime I read any of the man`s statements, my biases get reinforced.

For instance, consider the last paragraph in anNy`s post (#47). Here is his innocent wife being - as far as I think, unfairly - hauled over the coals by religious thugs and good-for-nothing, corrupt, pen pushers. And what does our man have to say to them? That Jemina read ``Shame`` when she was a student, and that they shouldn`t be doing these naughty things, else how would ``a non-Muslim convert to Islam?``

I mean, is this a man talking? An educated man? And this isn`t the only intellectual coup our friend has scored. I have read some delightful interviews he has given :) - expounding his deep views about educational system in Pakistan, about women, about ``Western Civilization,`` national finances....

I may be wrong, but I have a strong feeling that I am not. The gentleman truly is dumb.

OK, enough spewing of my prejudices. A serious question for you, PM, because I would trust your first hand experience far more than my own views based on limited information.

When you were in Karachi, did you hear Imran Khan say anything intelligent other than the kind of stuff we read in anNy # 47? Did he articulate even a vague vision related to ANY social topic?

Best.

prem
`I may be wrong, but I have a strong feeling that I am not. The gentleman truly is dumb`

LOL

ive met the gentleman twice and he is quite dumb..once was about 7-8 years ago when he was starting off his shaukat khanum campaign and one recently..he is sincere, well mannered, has just the right amount of obnoxiousness, charm and arrogance to attract those willing to be attracted..but if u talk to him for a while, he`s overall quite stupid..he banks too much on himself: how people will believe what he says because he says it..he doesnt understand why ppl wouldnt want him keeping im mind his sincerity i.e. all he has done for the nation, won us the world cup (he actually said that once i red in an interview somewhere) made the hospital etc...so while he is probably our only chance at a decent honest (not to mention sexy) ruler, he knows nothing about ruling and being a leader from what i can tell...but one cant help and feel really bad for him..aik tau he means well and then he just sounds and looks so nice :(
hope all is well with you
anNy

pmishra -- while u missed the demented headlines of the pakistani media i certainly did not miss your demented remarks on this forum -- hahah

From DAWN


Imran, Jemima hostile to Islam, Chaudhries clean politicians: PML-QA`s fits of insanity- LAHORE: Sept 23:

Imran, Jemima hostile to Islam, Chaudhries clean politicians: PML-QA`s fits of insanity- LAHORE: Sept 23: The PML-QA command has decided to file a reference with the Election Commission of Pakistan against Tehreek-i-Insaaf Chairman Imran Khan. This was announced by PML-QA Punjab Secretary Information Kamil Ali Agha while addressing a Press Conference at Muslim League House. He said through the reference, the Election Commission would be asked to take notice of Imran Khan and his wife Jemima Khan`s activities which are hostile to Islam. He said Imran Khan has become a security risk; and through the reference, his source of income and personal character in the light of Article 62 and 63 of the Constitution are also being raised. The PML-QA leader said that the party is also issuing a white paper against PPP Parliamentarians through which their black deeds would be highlighted. He went on claim that there is no corrupt man in the PML-QA which has neat and clean leadership at all levels throughout the country. He, however did not specifically mention as to when this reference will be filed and what relief the PML-QA will seek from the Election Commission in this respect. (Courtesy: THE STAR) (Posted @ 14:50 PDT)

There can be little doubt that Imran Khan is well-meaning, has made significant positive contributions in a number of areas, and is far less likely to be corrupt than many other politicians.

That may well be reason enough to vote for him. I personally won`t make that choice, but I am not in Pakistan. The best judge of such things will always be the average Pakistani - the small shop keeper, the office goer, the day laborer, the housewife (or househusband), the farmer. It is their native wisdom that we must learn to respect.

I have often wondered why people become corrupt. I am told that Nawaz Sharif, Benazir Bhutto, and Imran Khan share one common trait - they are all filthy rich. The same is true of many so-called leaders in India. Why do these people need more money, particularly money acquired at the cost of selling their souls to the devil? If it is drive for power motivating them, one can gain more power by giving things away than by hoarding silly trinkets that money buys.

In any case....

And I am in perfect health. Thank you.

LOL anny!
The friday times has a funny top ten reaons this issue about Imran that is worth a look. In any case, Imran is not very intelligent and he is very arrogant as well. Running a cancer Hospital is different from running a country, but arrogance and lack of intelligence are far from the exlusive preserve of Imran, to his credit at least he doesn`t have their other trait of corruptability..just yet!

Hmm I hope Omair isnt reading this..I`ve started defending Imran Khan!!!

Just curious about about apprehensions expressed in Pakistani newspapers about `pre-poll rigging` and `King`s party`?

Suppose there is a healthy turnout and there is no `significant` ballot box stuffing, would people indeed choose to vote for only the military- `approved` candidates? One would think BB/ NS or others should at this time be issuing strident and repeated calls to vote to ensure a good turnout.

american express 56

Here is a defining moment for the pak society, a proud moment for the educated pakistanis like you.

A young girl was killed by her own parents in the office of a well known human rights activist, asma jahangir. Un like the indian news report you quoted, the police declared that it is a common paki past time caleed honour killing. No one was arrested, police refused to file a case.

The entire democratically elected parliment with nawaz as prime minister passed a resolution supporting the non- criminality, read favourite past time, of honour killing.
Nawaz aws overthrown by a military dictator. With in the first three months he invited the parents, the killers for a photo shoot into his office, once again up holding the essential values of pakistanis like you. ( on chowk there is an article, 100 days of mushy and read about honouring of the killers by mushy)

My dear american express, here waht we have in pakistan is the killing as a legitimate sport. If you are a pakistani, you should know that honour killing is defined by the brutality and the public display of the crime. That is what makes it legal, and it is the mullah who declares the killing as related to honour, no police action. Learn about pakistan before reading indian news papers.
Read and be proud of the pak legal system that every pakistani is so proud, the great military ois proud to defend, the one every kashmiri is looking forward to.

Ref Zero-Credit #5620, 2002 8:47am PT
[Sanghi Parivar are killing for Infedility ...read the news below ?
http://www.mid-day.com/news/city/2002/september/32056.htm
A man killed his pregnant wife last night suspecting her of infidelity and surrendered to police. Police said Mahendra Atmaram Mayekar (36) was married to Prajakta (29) in December 2001.
Last night, when the rest of the family members were out of the house for Ganpati immersion, Mahendra slit his wife`s throat with a sickle, killing her on the spot, police said.
He then locked the main door, went to a nearby police chowky and confessed to the crime, police added.]
A man killed his wife because he thought his wife was cheating on him? In India, that would be a case of murder and the killer even promptly confessed to the murder, making his trial simple.
In Pakistan, this would be honor killing and the police would not arrest the man even if he confessed. Why, Musharraf might meet with the man for a photo session, like he did with the parents of that girl murdered in Asma Jahangir`s office.
I am curious, would you want the husband to have called the local mullah to pronounce the sentence of death by stoning and then collected a crowd to carry out the punishment?

Prem, anNy,
Please define dumb. If dumb is the abscence of enough political savvy to know say what the people want to hear (``no new taxes``, ``roti, kapra makaan for everyone in six months``, and ``freedom for Kashmiris`` in two) then yes, I agree Imran is `truly dumb`.
Ok, so he`s not the smartest man in the whole wide world. Guess what, you don`t HAVE to be-- not in a sitaution like Pakistan`s where the only real solutions are tough and lie in getting the basics right and dropping the BS about instant salvation (which, btw, Premji, is exactly, what most `common` Pakistanis, it appears, WANT to hear no matter how many times the like of NS and BB pull the wool over their eyes. Pakistani political sentiment is dictated way too much by familial affiliation to the `dynasties`. Whatever `dissent` is shown comes in the form of abstinence rather than the honest look for alternatives. That, more than anything else may be the tradegy of that heroic figure Imran khan.
So tell me, anNy, if Imran Khan knows nothing about `ruling`, which of his opponents have demonstrated or indicated a higher aptitude, such as to explain his relative unpopularity?
rgds,
PM

#55

Like PM said, ``define dumb``. Is it because his ``looks`` tend to get women all sweaty, his pretty wife tends to them all jealous, and they expect him to be some Scarlet Pimpernal-type hero spewing verse and rescuing citizens?

Get real. He`s just as smart or dumb as the rest of us, and just as human. I detest it when people talk about his (or anyone else`s) personal affairs - he married a ``jewess`` (btw not true, and even if he did, so what), he married for money, blah blah.

The guy built a hospital, in case u all forget. A FREE cancer hospital.. for hundreds and thousands of people. How many of u smarty-pants did that recently?

He played a game that thousands of people love, and won for his side so many times. He gave laughter, smiles, joy, happiness, and a future to many many people. WHAT MORE DO U WANT?

In today`s day and age, if a person like that cannot be called a leader, NO ONE deserves to be called a leader.

Everyone makes politics out to be this dirty dirty game, and it has gotten to that level simply because of smart people like u all.

We need leaders who will give people light, and hope, and reach out and touch them on a personal level. Not monsters.

For ALL the wonderful things he has given the world, Imran Khan is the smartest bestest man alive, because he has shown that he cares. So there! :P

# 61 Prem

U are SO right.