A Classical Revival?

Godot, Verghese, pmishra,

Aren`t we being a bit silly here, behaving very much like the irrational people we are happily and rightly slamming?

It is puerile to make structural arguments based on one`s interactions with a couple of people! Besides, there is a very strong possibility that the nature of our interactions was shaped by OUR OWN attitudes and prejudices.

I have personally met some of the sweetest of Pakistanis, and some of the most bigotted men and women ever...One deals with the good ones, and lets the bad ones simply rot where they are.

At the national level, an average Indian is far angrier and unwilling to compromise with Pakistan today than was the case five years ago. That comparison is across time, not across nations.

re:#42 by Naqshbandi
I completely agree with the spirit of your post. I have often said in the past that, after an initial period of churning and turmoil (when muslim rulers invaded the plains), a great syncretic culture was established by close interaction between the 2 communities. Urdu, classical music, art forms etc are all a testimony to this fact.
The first 2 decades after independence saw bollywood at its best. I am told 70% of lyricists were muslims. Add to that the greats of Rafi and you had a combination that held even south indians spellbound for many many years. Bollywood does not have the great film directors of the past, the like of Mehboob Khan, KA Abbas or even Raj Kapoor. S.D Burman was so popular as a music director because a lot of his music was based on folklores (something similar was done by Illaya Raja from South). Indians are unable to give that kind of music anymore because most are not in touch with their roots. In an effort to copy the west, they look pathetic!
Some people may take great pride in the fact that some Indians, like Shekar Kapoor, are going truely global by directing hollywood movies (Seven Feathers ? is the latest in his list) but i am not one of them.
Sridhar

re:#45 by ali_1
I am not angry at you. I was only pointing out the fact that, if monkey dancing is what you are interested in, Taliban have been excelling in that art form recently. They might have added this to the madrassa curriculum! (needless to say, only men can enroll!). Check it out.
Sridhar

re:#54 by sadna
You are right. The kind of people we are talking about not only degrade women but seem to act like they are carrying a great burden and, but for their efforts, Islam would not survive. Why would someone like Ali paint all hindus in the same brush without realising that hindus come in different hue and color? He is now defending MF Hussain without realising the issue involved. MF Hussain has been painting the nude pictures of Indian Gods and Goddessees for > 4 decades. No one, except some Shiv Sena loonies, has objected. This man`s knowledge of hinduism will put even Bal Thackeray to shame.
As far as eating beef is concerned, Pakis again suffer from some kind of misinformation. One Pakistani in New York asked me many years ago if muslims in India were not doing hindus a great favor by voluntarily giving up on cow-slaughter out of consideration for the majority community! People who want to eat beef are eating beef and few hindus (except the extreme fringe) would care less.
rgds,
Sridhar

Harpreet

The world would be dull place if everyone espoused the same cause or if everyone came across much like oneself.

Godot

I have come across some Pakistanis at the workplace who generally seem to have this unhealthy stereotype of India as well as a narrow worldview and stick to it. There was one occasion with a Pakistani , whoand assumed that I must be a Pakistani and started chatting. Before long he said ``My name is Mohammed `` etc. and emphaised that twice. Finally he asked me if I was Muslim , I said no I am not a Muslim , at which point he abruptly ended the conversation and attemped to walk away, on the one hand I was taken aback by this rude behaviour but on the other hand I figured it was better to not be friends with such a guy. I have had Pakistanis attempt tell me that the Hindu army is kiliing Kashmiris etc., well I was amused by that , Then there was this Pakistani guy , who upon reaching a restaurant where I was having my dinner ,found a couple of people ahead of him, and I was surprised to hear this guy loudly comment that ``Indian takle hote hain`` or some such , now that its not even remotely funny. My guess is that gentleman was really hungry and did not expect Indians to be ahead of him in a queue at that Pakistani restaurant.

So I guess the moral of the story is that both sides need to appreaciate the finer points of each other and move on. There is one particular comment I would like to make and that is that to the best of my knowledge none of the Indian textbooksthat I studied ever attempted to ``inform`` us about Pakistan or its inhabitants in a way that would be perceived as prejudicial.

Verghese#56
``I have heard of some Jesuit priests who have adapted Bharatnatyam to convey Chirst`s message. I believe something along those lines is being charted for KathaKali as well.``


Thats interesting. Isn`t it a bit paradoxical, that in order to perform well or create new compositions suited for other messages, the artist has to understand and absolutely master the art and technique of classical dance or music.

To acquire such mastery, surely, the artist has to get to the very soul of the traditional compositions, inother words sink himself/herself in the Hindu and/or Muslim ethos expressed in these compositions. I would think by the time the artist has gone that far, she/he would realise that all devotion and its expression are the same thing finally and would cease to distinguish religion of origin.

For example, why would great singers like Kumar Gandharva who put body and soul into their music ever need to distinguish whether the mukhda was addressed to Allah or to Bhagwan? The same thing might apply to dancers.

godot #68

I hate to point an inconvenient fact to a broad minded, educated, tolerant and ``american``-type person such as yourself: perhaps the indian disgust with pakistanis has something to do with the daily diet of murder in J&K for the last 10 years? And that at one point dozens of the worst khalistani extremists were supported and trained in Pakistanis in the 80s?

Before 9/11 extremists groups who had murdered all kinds of civilians in J&K were openly funded throughout Pakistan. The ``Kashmir Jihad`` was a subject of civic enthusiasm throughout the country --- this same Jihad which was generating headlines like ``Freedom Fighters kill 7 in wedding party``. After 9/11 and January 2002 there has been some change in this space, but we are yet to see any deep changes.

Fortunately, it is no longer us retarded indians only who complain about Pakistan. The whole world understands that there is something fundamentally wrong with the bizarre combination of envy, hatred and self-righteousness that characterizes a large part of pakistani culture. The recent spurt of complaints that Pakistanis can no longer easily obtain US student visas together with the great admiration for bin Laden among the young is a snapshot of this type of thinking. I have a feeling that now even advanced ``american``-type people have concerns about the nature of civic culture in Pakistan and the role of Islam there!

Harpreet, #66

I also personally experienced that from a couple of Indians with whom I was working (thank goodness temporarily.) They did not direct their diatribe towards me (I could be quite intimidating and was too American for them.) I tried to reason with them, tried to explain to them why it`s so important to live in peace and harmony, be tolerant of others, just be happy with yourself, etc, etc, etc. But they, seemingly well-educated intelligent people, had this sheer hatred for the Pakistanis and Islam which had totally blinded them towards reason to anything that`s Pakistani or Islam. When talking about Pakistan, their behavior became infantile and they looked and sounded insane. Left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I have come to believe, unfortunately, that hatred towards Pakistanis is gradually intitituionalized in India, coming from the very top in the persona of Advani.

harpo # 66:

well said!

[...(In the cases on this page though the main driver is homosexual neurosis and resentment caused by shock at genital inadequacy I reckon)...]

---this missile should land devastatingly when it finds its target

rgds,

t

ps: recall what dost-mitar wrote about similar incidents in personal meetings and conversations in ottawa...he was amazed at the bigotry and hatred of seemingly normal types of indians...

Pankaj,

It’s interesting (and scary sometimes) to read isn’t it? I had a conversation with a fully paid up member of the VHP at a friends house once and its not that he was an idiot (he was actually quite intelligent), it was just that the staggering intellectual decrepitude of his beliefs made me think that his hatred of the other ie: Muslims was caused by a deep psychological flaw, a dark mineshaft of sheer black inadequacy and self hatred, to have by-passed so completely his otherwise reasonable personage, to have utterly blown his circuits and short-circuited his brain in terms of morality. Take notes because you can actually witness a mono-maniacal descent into lunacy in the intensity of their bigotry. (By the end of my conversaton with this VHP dude he was literally foaming at the mouth, I got splashed with his spittle as he actually lost control of bodily function. All I did was to make fun of Advani. I think he had some kind of father-fixation on the man.)

It reminds me of a project I was involved in as a student when some Asian and black youth were involved in a debate and interviews with members of the BNP, a British neo-nazi party, and my friend mapped the psychological neurosis and social/economic factors that interplayed in the creation of their bogeymen and demons. (It chilled me to the bone to hear us being casually referred to as “Paki” and “Nigger” and “Scum” in every other sentence. But it was good to hear. This was a good seven/eight years ago)

I reckon it is deeply rooted in sexual and penile dysfunction, note the recurrent references to sexual spoliation, the use of rape as a metaphor and in practice too in Gujarat pogroms, and with one of our sour-pusses here, consistent reference to sodomy and denigration of Hindu Gods.

(Also, another pointer is when people are collectively refererd to in bestial terms: the first step to de-humanisation, the Jew becomes the rat, the Muslim the pig, the Hindu the monkey. About 9 years ago, a black teenager was murdered in London by some skinheads. It became a cause celebre for all sorts of reasons about institutional racism in the police force after their inept investigation, the killers were set free and still have not been convicted yet, a scandal. Anyway it has become a focal point for hate crimes and so on, like the Dreyfus affair of modern day Britain, and these racist killers were shown to have referred to black people as monkeys and rats in conversations and correspondence and during the attack he was called a ``Nigger Chimpanzee`` or something similar. Conversion to the bestial is often a prelude and primer to annihilation)

Ultimately Pankaj, whether they be Hindu Muslim Sikh or Jew, might it not be better to let them be? I read somewhere that a psychologist said that to engage in one murder fantasy a day was actually quite healthy and a stress reliever, and he referred to a survey saying that murder fantasies were fairly widespread in British society, across all levels. You know what I mean, when somebody cuts you up in the road so you want to shoot them, or your boss pushes you just that inch too far and you fantasise about strangling him. Now I have to admit, I don’t think like that everyday (only when my flatmates forget to put sugar in my tea) but otherwise you spoil people’s fun and shatter their cosy manichean worldview, and where would they be without their hate? Would you be so cruel, to take away a cry-baby’s comfort blanket? Have you no compassion?

(In the cases on this page though the main driver is homosexual neurosis and resentment caused by shock at genital inadequacy I reckon)

Actually I am going to admit something, I think that some of Ali1 and Urstruly’s quips are quite funny, they make me laugh sometimes.

-h-

(Please tell me if you liked this post, it has taken me 30 minutes to write…)

:)

Dear Pankaj #59,

I don`t blame you for being biased. To believe in one Entity creating all of humanity is to believe in hard-core equality. You, on the other hand, think in 331 million shades. My friend, I don`t blame you at all for being biased.

Umer M.

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Naqshbandi: I am glad you like Baba Waris Shah and Bulleh Shah. Here are some verses from the both. I would be interested in your views on these.

Waris Shah, Khuda de khaaneyaN nu,
mullaN chambRay haain balaayeaN ee.


ralle dillaN nu pakaR vichhoR dainday, buri baan ehna hateyaareaN nu.
khaavan waDiyan, nitt imaan vechan, ehu maar hai QaaziaN saareyaN nu.

Bullah:

mullaN mainu maarda ee, mullaN mainu maarda ee.
mullaN mainu sabak paRhayea, AlifoN aggay kujh na ayea,
oh bay hi bay pukaarda ee, mullaN mainu maarda ee.

Pankaj, #59
And the intense religious (and Pakistani) hatred of some people (namely, Indians and Hindus) amazes (not amuses) me. What do you think of that? You are awfully quiet when an Indian/Hindu lashes out, in the most abusive language, at Pakistanis and Islam. But yours, and other Indians/Hindus, feathers are ruffled when a Pakistani does the same to the Indians and Hindus. Where`s your objectivity? So, then, it seems, for you, what`s good for the goose is not good for the gander!!!

Nasbandi Saheb

It is circumstantial evidence not association, where did you learn all this , do not tell me at was at the State penitentiary where your roommate was Leroy Brown.

By the way at yourage you should be worried about getting nice Arab bridegroms for your daugthers and oh make sure that your son does not get into trouble.

The intensity of religious hatred against Hinduism by some people on this site amuses me.