A Classical Revival?
Beena Sarwar September 16, 2002
#41 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 19, 2002 10:01:22 am
rsridhar i actually agree with you about bollywood nowadays not being very indian anymore but rather a false attempt at portraying india as a part of the USA; even the songs are crap now.
Gone are the days when they actually depicted indian culture with films like pakeezah and mughal e azam and chaudvin ka chand and most of raj kapoor`s films and guru dutt`s too. and i have heard bhimsen joshi and ravi shankar [he isn`t a patch on nikhil bannerjee] etc.
But most of this north indian culture which passes off as hindustani culture nowadays is a product of the muslims of india anyway; the sitar and many raags were invented by hazrat amir khusro delhvi; Miyan Tan Sen was a convert to Islam and invented Raag Miya ka Malhaar etc. Almost all of the gharanas of classical hindustani musiqui are Muslims and as for ghazals--which go hand in hand with a lot of this culture--the poets were/are almost all Muslims. The only really great hindu ghazal poet i can think of is Firaq Gorakhpuri.
No doubt the the basis of a lot of this culture was hindu but it was islamicised by the Muslim genius and hence popularised. Even most of the great monuments of architecture which India is famous for and which drive its tourism industry are mostly (not all) built by Muslims; and the international symbol of India--The Taj Mahal- was built by a Muslim too!
Heck it might be hard for you hinoods to admit but the best thing which ever happened to India was the arrival of and rule by the Muslims.
***
As for this aping of all things western and the erosion of native languages and cultural traditions--this is happening in Pak too--and it is a shame. e.g. our generation is no longer as familiar with the great Farsi classics as our forefathers which is a pity as this is a part of our common muslim heritage; ppl nowadays don`t/can`t speak khaalis urdu; as for the decimation of punjabi literature--the less said the better! Where in world literature is their poetry as moving and spiritually intoxicating and full of Truths as that of the Punjabi Sufis: Baba Bulleh Shah, Hazrat Mian Muhammad Bakhsh, Baba Waris Shah sahib, Hazrat Sultan Bahu, Hazrat Fariduddin Ganj e Shakar, Hazrat Mihr Ali Shah etc? Yet it is being neglected! And the Farsi and Arabic and Urdu poets are too many. And of course Sindhi`s great poets too such as Shah Abdul Latif BhiTai etc.
There is nothing wrong with learning about western culture--they too have some great literature--Goethe for example--but not at the expense of forgetting our own!
**
I`d rather watch an Indian film about Mirabai and her poetic bhajans then a typical bollywood clone of the latest USA film!
**
Gone are the days when they actually depicted indian culture with films like pakeezah and mughal e azam and chaudvin ka chand and most of raj kapoor`s films and guru dutt`s too. and i have heard bhimsen joshi and ravi shankar [he isn`t a patch on nikhil bannerjee] etc.
But most of this north indian culture which passes off as hindustani culture nowadays is a product of the muslims of india anyway; the sitar and many raags were invented by hazrat amir khusro delhvi; Miyan Tan Sen was a convert to Islam and invented Raag Miya ka Malhaar etc. Almost all of the gharanas of classical hindustani musiqui are Muslims and as for ghazals--which go hand in hand with a lot of this culture--the poets were/are almost all Muslims. The only really great hindu ghazal poet i can think of is Firaq Gorakhpuri.
No doubt the the basis of a lot of this culture was hindu but it was islamicised by the Muslim genius and hence popularised. Even most of the great monuments of architecture which India is famous for and which drive its tourism industry are mostly (not all) built by Muslims; and the international symbol of India--The Taj Mahal- was built by a Muslim too!
Heck it might be hard for you hinoods to admit but the best thing which ever happened to India was the arrival of and rule by the Muslims.
***
As for this aping of all things western and the erosion of native languages and cultural traditions--this is happening in Pak too--and it is a shame. e.g. our generation is no longer as familiar with the great Farsi classics as our forefathers which is a pity as this is a part of our common muslim heritage; ppl nowadays don`t/can`t speak khaalis urdu; as for the decimation of punjabi literature--the less said the better! Where in world literature is their poetry as moving and spiritually intoxicating and full of Truths as that of the Punjabi Sufis: Baba Bulleh Shah, Hazrat Mian Muhammad Bakhsh, Baba Waris Shah sahib, Hazrat Sultan Bahu, Hazrat Fariduddin Ganj e Shakar, Hazrat Mihr Ali Shah etc? Yet it is being neglected! And the Farsi and Arabic and Urdu poets are too many. And of course Sindhi`s great poets too such as Shah Abdul Latif BhiTai etc.
There is nothing wrong with learning about western culture--they too have some great literature--Goethe for example--but not at the expense of forgetting our own!
**
I`d rather watch an Indian film about Mirabai and her poetic bhajans then a typical bollywood clone of the latest USA film!
**
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#40 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 19, 2002 10:01:22 am
rsridhar i actually agree with you about bollywood nowadays not being very indian anymore but rather a false attempt at portraying india as a part of the USA; even the songs are crap now.
Gone are the days when they actually depicted indian culture with films like pakeezah and mughal e azam and chaudvin ka chand and most of raj kapoor`s films and guru dutt`s too. and i have heard bhimsen joshi and ravi shankar [he isn`t a patch on nikhil bannerjee] etc.
But most of this north indian culture which passes off as hindustani culture nowadays is a product of the muslims of india anyway; the sitar and many raags were invented by hazrat amir khusro delhvi; Miyan Tan Sen was a convert to Islam and invented Raag Miya ka Malhaar etc. Almost all of the gharanas of classical hindustani musiqui are Muslims and as for ghazals--which go hand in hand with a lot of this culture--the poets were/are almost all Muslims. The only really great hindu ghazal poet i can think of is Firaq Gorakhpuri.
No doubt the the basis of a lot of this culture was hindu but it was islamicised by the Muslim genius and hence popularised. Even most of the great monuments of architecture which India is famous for and which drive its tourism industry are mostly (not all) built by Muslims; and the international symbol of India--The Taj Mahal- was built by a Muslim too!
Heck it might be hard for you hinoods to admit but the best thing which ever happened to India was the arrival of and rule by the Muslims.
***
As for this aping of all things western and the erosion of native languages and cultural traditions--this is happening in Pak too--and it is a shame. e.g. our generation is no longer as familiar with the great Farsi classics as our forefathers which is a pity as this is a part of our common muslim heritage; ppl nowadays don`t/can`t speak khaalis urdu; as for the decimation of punjabi literature--the less said the better! Where in world literature is their poetry as moving and spiritually intoxicating and full of Truths as that of the Punjabi Sufis: Baba Bulleh Shah, Hazrat Mian Muhammad Bakhsh, Baba Waris Shah sahib, Hazrat Sultan Bahu, Hazrat Fariduddin Ganj e Shakar, Hazrat Mihr Ali Shah etc? Yet it is being neglected! And the Farsi and Arabic and Urdu poets are too many. And of course Sindhi`s great poets too such as Shah Abdul Latif BhiTai etc.
There is nothing wrong with learning about western culture--they too have some great literature--Goethe for example--but not at the expense of forgetting our own!
**
I`d rather watch an Indian film about Mirabai and her poetic bhajans then a typical bollywood clone of the latest USA film!
**
Gone are the days when they actually depicted indian culture with films like pakeezah and mughal e azam and chaudvin ka chand and most of raj kapoor`s films and guru dutt`s too. and i have heard bhimsen joshi and ravi shankar [he isn`t a patch on nikhil bannerjee] etc.
But most of this north indian culture which passes off as hindustani culture nowadays is a product of the muslims of india anyway; the sitar and many raags were invented by hazrat amir khusro delhvi; Miyan Tan Sen was a convert to Islam and invented Raag Miya ka Malhaar etc. Almost all of the gharanas of classical hindustani musiqui are Muslims and as for ghazals--which go hand in hand with a lot of this culture--the poets were/are almost all Muslims. The only really great hindu ghazal poet i can think of is Firaq Gorakhpuri.
No doubt the the basis of a lot of this culture was hindu but it was islamicised by the Muslim genius and hence popularised. Even most of the great monuments of architecture which India is famous for and which drive its tourism industry are mostly (not all) built by Muslims; and the international symbol of India--The Taj Mahal- was built by a Muslim too!
Heck it might be hard for you hinoods to admit but the best thing which ever happened to India was the arrival of and rule by the Muslims.
***
As for this aping of all things western and the erosion of native languages and cultural traditions--this is happening in Pak too--and it is a shame. e.g. our generation is no longer as familiar with the great Farsi classics as our forefathers which is a pity as this is a part of our common muslim heritage; ppl nowadays don`t/can`t speak khaalis urdu; as for the decimation of punjabi literature--the less said the better! Where in world literature is their poetry as moving and spiritually intoxicating and full of Truths as that of the Punjabi Sufis: Baba Bulleh Shah, Hazrat Mian Muhammad Bakhsh, Baba Waris Shah sahib, Hazrat Sultan Bahu, Hazrat Fariduddin Ganj e Shakar, Hazrat Mihr Ali Shah etc? Yet it is being neglected! And the Farsi and Arabic and Urdu poets are too many. And of course Sindhi`s great poets too such as Shah Abdul Latif BhiTai etc.
There is nothing wrong with learning about western culture--they too have some great literature--Goethe for example--but not at the expense of forgetting our own!
**
I`d rather watch an Indian film about Mirabai and her poetic bhajans then a typical bollywood clone of the latest USA film!
**
#39 Posted by Urstruly on September 19, 2002 8:22:07 am
CHowk Staff has revoked my privilige of instant posting; I am sort of pissed at that. Now I feel equal to you all-and that has made me sleepless. I was never used to travel in the third class compartment along with other commoners. There was a time when Chowk used to publish great stuff and best of that was my own posts. Now I have to wait in que like rest ughhh...... I hope now that mean witch saminashah is happy......and mubarak to chowk for their so called improved quality of debate ughhhh.....I am also thinking of taking a leave of absence and go somewhere else where there is not so much indifference and I am hated again.
#38 Posted by Urstruly on September 19, 2002 8:22:07 am
But before I leave I want to ask this character: Abay aadhay hindu! what happened to your tail ``Talib``. Did Chowk Staff chopped that off?
#37 Posted by sadna on September 18, 2002 11:14:09 pm
sac #24
No need to be jealous. All are God`s creatures, muttonheaded Pakistanis as much as banias. And we promise to be as thrilled with your illogic too, if you posted as often.
No need to be jealous. All are God`s creatures, muttonheaded Pakistanis as much as banias. And we promise to be as thrilled with your illogic too, if you posted as often.
#36 Posted by Lajwanti on September 18, 2002 7:17:13 pm
Reply ali_1 #23
“…one of the advantages that we got by carving Pakistan out of Bharat Mata was to rid ourselves of all the vile influences of your evil religion. Keep your kok shastras, devdasis and their dances, we are happy without them.”
Very good Ali1, I am proudnass of u! U r very good! Ur shheed! (Ia msuspect youa re liking myfried Bhatiya Muslman. Is truly?)
Slaam!
“…one of the advantages that we got by carving Pakistan out of Bharat Mata was to rid ourselves of all the vile influences of your evil religion. Keep your kok shastras, devdasis and their dances, we are happy without them.”
Very good Ali1, I am proudnass of u! U r very good! Ur shheed! (Ia msuspect youa re liking myfried Bhatiya Muslman. Is truly?)
Slaam!
#35 Posted by Lajwanti on September 18, 2002 7:17:13 pm
Reply rsridhar #33
``Some of your co-religionists, i am told, did a monkey dance when those daisy cutters were falling from the heaven in Afghanistan. They were pissing & sh!tting in their sherwanis even while they were running and doing the monkey dance.``
MrSridhars, thisi snot niceness! Iam very disapointa nd sorrow. If ali_1 is eating ganday janwar ka leed doesi t meaning u also will eating, haiN?
I am fried so Iam tell u, ok? do not angry.
``Some of your co-religionists, i am told, did a monkey dance when those daisy cutters were falling from the heaven in Afghanistan. They were pissing & sh!tting in their sherwanis even while they were running and doing the monkey dance.``
MrSridhars, thisi snot niceness! Iam very disapointa nd sorrow. If ali_1 is eating ganday janwar ka leed doesi t meaning u also will eating, haiN?
I am fried so Iam tell u, ok? do not angry.
#34 Posted by ZafarA on September 18, 2002 7:05:45 pm
Reply dost-mittar #19
Indeed, where is Harimau when we need him?
“I have watched many BN recitals without any dance on Gopi-Krishna theme. And almost every recital has a Tillana piece which is based on folk, as opposed to religious, tradition. But I agree that religious mythology plays a significant role in BN, as in all Indian classical art.”
I used Gopi-Krishna as an example of a theme, more than the defining one – but must admit that I learned about the katha to kathak connection from your post. Perhaps the most defining difference between kathak and the other classical dances of India is that there is a non-religious aspect to kathak, while the others are pretty much all entirely steeped in religious practice? (uh oh, I am setting myself up to be proved wrong again…my meaning is that at each BN recital it’s origin as temple dancing is clear in the dance and often also in the “accessories” like murtis/dias on stage…while Kathakali always starts with a danced pooja behind a sheet, ie one which the audience does not see. Not sure about Mohini Attam/Manipuri.)
The tillana in Bharat Natyam recitals is the “rhythm” or “pure dance” section – from what a layman like myself can see it’s less abhinaya and natya and more nritya (movement, footwork). Didn’t know that it incorporated folk themes, but live and learn :-)
What, btw, have you done to upset ali_1 this time?
Regards
Zafar
Indeed, where is Harimau when we need him?
“I have watched many BN recitals without any dance on Gopi-Krishna theme. And almost every recital has a Tillana piece which is based on folk, as opposed to religious, tradition. But I agree that religious mythology plays a significant role in BN, as in all Indian classical art.”
I used Gopi-Krishna as an example of a theme, more than the defining one – but must admit that I learned about the katha to kathak connection from your post. Perhaps the most defining difference between kathak and the other classical dances of India is that there is a non-religious aspect to kathak, while the others are pretty much all entirely steeped in religious practice? (uh oh, I am setting myself up to be proved wrong again…my meaning is that at each BN recital it’s origin as temple dancing is clear in the dance and often also in the “accessories” like murtis/dias on stage…while Kathakali always starts with a danced pooja behind a sheet, ie one which the audience does not see. Not sure about Mohini Attam/Manipuri.)
The tillana in Bharat Natyam recitals is the “rhythm” or “pure dance” section – from what a layman like myself can see it’s less abhinaya and natya and more nritya (movement, footwork). Didn’t know that it incorporated folk themes, but live and learn :-)
What, btw, have you done to upset ali_1 this time?
Regards
Zafar
#33 Posted by rsridhar on September 18, 2002 6:56:41 pm
#23 by ali_1
``Keep your kok shastras, devdasis and their dances, we are happy without them.``
Some of your co-religionists, i am told, did a monkey dance when those daisy cutters were falling from the heaven in Afghanistan. They were pissing & sh!tting in their sherwanis even while they were running and doing the monkey dance.
Now, that is real culture, coming straight from the mullah brigade. You are right. Bharat natyam, Kathak you can do without. You should learn how to dance from these mullahs. Some of them are still hiding in ``the land of pure``. May be they will oblige you if you ask.
Sridhar
``Keep your kok shastras, devdasis and their dances, we are happy without them.``
Some of your co-religionists, i am told, did a monkey dance when those daisy cutters were falling from the heaven in Afghanistan. They were pissing & sh!tting in their sherwanis even while they were running and doing the monkey dance.
Now, that is real culture, coming straight from the mullah brigade. You are right. Bharat natyam, Kathak you can do without. You should learn how to dance from these mullahs. Some of them are still hiding in ``the land of pure``. May be they will oblige you if you ask.
Sridhar
#32 Posted by shammi on September 18, 2002 6:44:13 pm
re: romair
``...Indians are far more talented...``
Wrong again! The cultural artefacts tht you chose as evidence of Indian advancement (bollywood movies) happen to be in an industry in which scale matters. India, being a much larger market than Pakistan, can afford to produce 1000 movies in a year simply because the market is huge. The fact that movies are made to reach a diverse audience also helps in pulling in viewers from Pak, C. Asia, Middle East and Africa. This is one area where scale, not just talent, wins.
The other thing that helps India churn out artists in various fora is the freedom of expression allowed by the system. No wonder that Mohd. Rafi left Lahore after Partition, Dilip Kumar never went back to Peshawar, and Barre Ghulam Ali Khan returned to India from the cultural backwater of Pakistan. All these individuals have no ethnic differences with their brethren in Pak. Even Bangladesh`s poetess Taslima Nasreen now lives in exile in Calcutta and the Pak poet who translated Vajpayee`s poems now lives in exile in Delhi. Had NS had his way, perhaps The Friday Times would have been published from Delhi, with Najam Sethi at the helm. What is different is that the SYSTEM respects freedom of expression (more or less).
``...Indians are far more talented...``
Wrong again! The cultural artefacts tht you chose as evidence of Indian advancement (bollywood movies) happen to be in an industry in which scale matters. India, being a much larger market than Pakistan, can afford to produce 1000 movies in a year simply because the market is huge. The fact that movies are made to reach a diverse audience also helps in pulling in viewers from Pak, C. Asia, Middle East and Africa. This is one area where scale, not just talent, wins.
The other thing that helps India churn out artists in various fora is the freedom of expression allowed by the system. No wonder that Mohd. Rafi left Lahore after Partition, Dilip Kumar never went back to Peshawar, and Barre Ghulam Ali Khan returned to India from the cultural backwater of Pakistan. All these individuals have no ethnic differences with their brethren in Pak. Even Bangladesh`s poetess Taslima Nasreen now lives in exile in Calcutta and the Pak poet who translated Vajpayee`s poems now lives in exile in Delhi. Had NS had his way, perhaps The Friday Times would have been published from Delhi, with Najam Sethi at the helm. What is different is that the SYSTEM respects freedom of expression (more or less).
#31 Posted by rsridhar on September 18, 2002 6:44:13 pm
re:#21 by Romair
Hindu culture is diverse. North had dominated India in the early decades so much that southerners feared that the ``hindiwallahs`` will just take over their culture. If you go from north to south you will see tremendous difference in languages, dress codes, food habits etc. While a Punjabee is comfortable in his sherwani, Tamilian prefers his dhoti. While wheat and tea are popular in the north, rice and coffee are the staple diet in the south. A side to side node means ``yes`` in south and ``no`` in north!
With so much diversity, there is nothing like a single Indian culture. What Pakistanis are facing today is the north indian culture, the worst manifestation of which is bollywood. Bollywood, as it exists today, does not even look Indian. The themes are borrowed from hollywood. Actors try to look more and more like Tom cruise (with pathetic results, no doubt). Actresses are going around semi-naked with their stupid hip gyrating routines. This is not Indian culture.
How many pakistanis have listened to Bhimsen Joshi, Pandit Jasraj or Ravi Shankar? How many have listened to the ethereal voice of Subbulaxmi (the only Indian singer to be awarded Bharat Ratna, the highest civilan award)? These and many others are the true cultural gurus and their legacy will outlast all the excrement that bollywood is churning up nowadays.
Sridhar
Hindu culture is diverse. North had dominated India in the early decades so much that southerners feared that the ``hindiwallahs`` will just take over their culture. If you go from north to south you will see tremendous difference in languages, dress codes, food habits etc. While a Punjabee is comfortable in his sherwani, Tamilian prefers his dhoti. While wheat and tea are popular in the north, rice and coffee are the staple diet in the south. A side to side node means ``yes`` in south and ``no`` in north!
With so much diversity, there is nothing like a single Indian culture. What Pakistanis are facing today is the north indian culture, the worst manifestation of which is bollywood. Bollywood, as it exists today, does not even look Indian. The themes are borrowed from hollywood. Actors try to look more and more like Tom cruise (with pathetic results, no doubt). Actresses are going around semi-naked with their stupid hip gyrating routines. This is not Indian culture.
How many pakistanis have listened to Bhimsen Joshi, Pandit Jasraj or Ravi Shankar? How many have listened to the ethereal voice of Subbulaxmi (the only Indian singer to be awarded Bharat Ratna, the highest civilan award)? These and many others are the true cultural gurus and their legacy will outlast all the excrement that bollywood is churning up nowadays.
Sridhar
#30 Posted by hamidm2 on September 18, 2002 3:41:07 pm
......... pakistani culture, like politics and horse racing, is so confusing - you can never figure out what is in and what is out , what is halal and what is haram, what is hindoo propaganda and what is arab kaka......... every few years the people in charge of culture and horse racing make up the rules and then change them without telling us .......that is why you have people running around spiking their punch and then taking a break for magrib prayers before dirty dancing and taraweeh ........... i grew up thinking that classical indian dance was part of our culture and naheed siddique was a goddess of sorts ..........then they told us she was a wh-re and should be banished to inglistan with her husband .......... then they came back and were again part of the cultural scene ........ who knows where they are at now .........
...... listening to fm100 is a surreal experience with people speaking urdu in english while ptv-4 constantly features talking beards speaking urdu in arabic and extolling us to stop listening to fm100........... the rest of us speak urdu in punjabi, pushto or sindhi and have no idea what is going on on radio and television ..........
......... i guess our real culture is reflected in the the mehndis, dholaks and shadis - bollywood is the name of this game ......... over the last few years these events have become highly choreographed affairs with amateurs taking over what professionals used to do ......... in the good old days we would get some nautch girls from lahore to entertain the men-folk into the wee hours of the morning while the women beat the dholak and sang off-key wedding songs ............ the cultural scene is so confusing now days - how can you have horse racing without betting and how can you have reema dancing after maghrib prayers ..........
...... listening to fm100 is a surreal experience with people speaking urdu in english while ptv-4 constantly features talking beards speaking urdu in arabic and extolling us to stop listening to fm100........... the rest of us speak urdu in punjabi, pushto or sindhi and have no idea what is going on on radio and television ..........
......... i guess our real culture is reflected in the the mehndis, dholaks and shadis - bollywood is the name of this game ......... over the last few years these events have become highly choreographed affairs with amateurs taking over what professionals used to do ......... in the good old days we would get some nautch girls from lahore to entertain the men-folk into the wee hours of the morning while the women beat the dholak and sang off-key wedding songs ............ the cultural scene is so confusing now days - how can you have horse racing without betting and how can you have reema dancing after maghrib prayers ..........
#28 Posted by Prem on September 18, 2002 2:39:48 pm
re: sac #24
LOL....that is so on the mark.
There are people from both sides of the divide that I simply ignore: they have nothing to add to any reasonable dialogue. But Romair - well, I am often drawn to reading him. There isn`t a single absurd argument that the gentleman will not make, no flight of fancy he will not take, no strategic foolishness that he will not mistake for vision, nothing he will not say with a straight face. One has to be thoroughly trained into that state of mind - nobody can be born so exceptionally clever.
I know ...I know I am being terribly biased, but somehow Romair represents, for me, the quintessential Pakistani general - just too smart by half for their own good. If you consider that Pakistani army is full of romairs (with some hobbytys thrown in), all their history and all their policies suddenly begin to make a great deal of sense.
LOL....that is so on the mark.
There are people from both sides of the divide that I simply ignore: they have nothing to add to any reasonable dialogue. But Romair - well, I am often drawn to reading him. There isn`t a single absurd argument that the gentleman will not make, no flight of fancy he will not take, no strategic foolishness that he will not mistake for vision, nothing he will not say with a straight face. One has to be thoroughly trained into that state of mind - nobody can be born so exceptionally clever.
I know ...I know I am being terribly biased, but somehow Romair represents, for me, the quintessential Pakistani general - just too smart by half for their own good. If you consider that Pakistani army is full of romairs (with some hobbytys thrown in), all their history and all their policies suddenly begin to make a great deal of sense.
#27 Posted by nooralain on September 18, 2002 1:10:53 pm
i`ve been wondering the same thing ever since i noticed his longer than usual absence...can only hope it`s not something seriously wrong that keeps him away from us. Perhaps he`s travelling? And didn`t feel the need (unlike myself) to tell his chowk buddies he`s going to be absent for a while. Khub pittayee hogi unki...am concerned. okay t. next time you absent yourself from Chowk for more than 72 hours, you MUST have our permission, and our blessing before doing so...unless it`s an unforeseen emergency...and i`m being super serious!
hope tahmed knows how much he`s being missed....and then there`s .....naaah *glares*....am biting my tongue...ouch.
hope tahmed knows how much he`s being missed....and then there`s .....naaah *glares*....am biting my tongue...ouch.
#25 Posted by temporal on September 18, 2002 12:11:25 pm
seriously folks...does anyone has any information on tahmed?...hope everything is ok with the fellow...
..t
..t
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- ajeya: #24 Posted by dost_mittar [But... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
- masadi: Anil sahib, nice try... Historian Amaresh Misra on
- pakiturk: My friends, ML, MQM, PPP,... MQM - History and
- anil: Masadi sahib: Your brain is... Historian Amaresh Misra on
- masadi: Thinking sahib, Please pardon the... Fathers and Daughters
- masadi: Anil writes "You show... Historian Amaresh Misra on
- pakiturk: #86 Posted by hamidm2... MQM - History and
- vatanparast: #107 Whatever I say is... MQM - History and
